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The Tragic End of the Bibas Story - with Matti Friedman
2025/2/20
Call Me Back - with Dan Senor
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Dan Senor
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Matti Friedman
Matti Friedman: 我认为，以色列人起初不愿相信比巴斯一家遇害，直到不得不接受这一事实。哈马斯归还比巴斯一家遗体的仪式与之前释放人质的仪式形成鲜明对比，这次是棺材而不是活人。巴勒斯坦民众，包括儿童，观看哈马斯移交比巴斯一家棺材的场景，令人震惊地展现了对哈马斯的支持。哈马斯在中东及世界各地拥有广泛的支持，这应引起人们的警惕。哈马斯并非某个边缘团体，而是代表着巴勒斯坦社会的重要组成部分，甚至在2006年的选举中获胜。比巴斯一家最初并非被哈马斯绑架，而是被其他巴勒斯坦武装分子绑架，他们采取同样的策略，认为绑架是正当行为。对巴勒斯坦的幻想可能会付出难以承受的代价，必须直面现实。对于以色列人来说，比巴斯一家成为十月七日事件的象征，因为他们的遭遇突显了事件的残酷性，也使原本难以想象的伤亡数字具体化。对于支持以色列的人来说，比巴斯一家孩子的形象突显了巴勒斯坦恐怖分子的野蛮行径，使其难以否认。对于海外犹太人来说，比巴斯一家象征着反犹太主义或对犹太人的敌意，因为他们的照片被撕毁的行为体现了这种敌意。对于以色列人来说，比巴斯一家既象征着巴勒斯坦恐怖分子的野蛮行径，也象征着以色列的软弱，因为他们的遭遇打破了以色列人长久以来的安全感。十月七日袭击事件对基布兹尼尔奥兹的影响，以及对以色列人对和平希望的冲击。尽管以色列官员私下透露比巴斯一家遇害的消息，但公众仍然抱有希望，不愿接受这一事实。以色列人对比巴斯一家遇害的迟迟不愿接受，是由于对亲切面孔的熟悉感和对心理战的可能性考虑。关于比巴斯一家遇害方式的猜测，以及对以色列国防军行动责任的讨论。即使比巴斯一家遇害可能与以色列国防军的行动有关，绑架者仍然对他们的死亡负有责任。以色列儿童通过各种渠道了解战争，难以避免其影响。以色列儿童难以避免接触战争信息，即使家长试图保护他们，战争的现实也无处不在。以色列青少年对比巴斯一家遇害事件的反应各异，一些人感到悲伤，一些人试图表现得坚强。比巴斯一家遇害事件可能不会显著改变以色列人的既定立场，他们仍然渴望通过各种手段营救人质。以色列人普遍不相信与邻国和平共处的可能性。以色列在战争中面临着消除威胁和营救人质的双重目标，这两个目标难以同时实现。哈马斯善于利用媒体宣传来塑造战争叙事，而以色列需要区分感知上的胜利和真实的胜利。尽管哈马斯在媒体宣传上取得了胜利，但在实际战争中，以色列仍然占据优势。十月七日事件并非普通的恐怖袭击或短暂的战争，它是一个具有决定性意义的事件，改变了以色列人对自身和地区地位的认知。比巴斯一家遇害事件将对以色列儿童产生深远的影响，因为对许多孩子来说，这是他们人生中最早的记忆。Bibas一家遇害事件是十月七日事件的延续，它再次粉碎了以色列人对和平的希望，并深刻地影响了以色列人的认知。
Dan Senor: 对于海外犹太人来说，比巴斯一家的悲剧尤其令人震惊，因为这揭示了社会中一部分人对绑架婴儿行为的纵容。Kfir Bibas的遭遇成为了这场冲突的象征，因为他代表了这场冲突的本质，也揭示了人们对这场冲突的不同立场。大多数以色列人对绑架婴儿的行为感到震惊，这与海外犹太人的感受相同。十月七日事件是一个文明的转折点，它迫使人们直面一些不愿面对的现实。Bibas一家遇害事件对以色列公众情绪和未来战争走向的影响。
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Matti Friedman: 'Oded Livshitz, as you said, was '83. He's grandfather among the founders of Kibbutz Niel Oz. He's a former journalist. He's a longtime left-wing activist. He spent years writing for left-wing newspapers like Alam Ishmael. And he organized a conference in 1972, which was actually called the Near-Oz Conference, which was organized to oppose the building of settlements and territories that Israel had captured a few years before in the Six-Day War. So as his wife, Yocheved, who was also a hostage, who was released early on in the war, as she said of him, recently she said, you know, he spent much of his life fighting for the rights of Palestinians. And that's one of the terrible ironies of how his life ended.'
Matti Friedman: 'Shiri Bibas, as you described her, was a young mother, lived on the same kibbutz, which was among the hardest hit kibbutzim on October 7th. About a quarter of the people on the kibbutz were murdered or taken captive. She was a young mother with two little kids and they woke up on Saturday morning, Shabbat morning, and thought they were safe and were dragged into Gaza and came back today in coffins.'
Matti Friedman: 'And they drove not to be reunited with families and they didn't drive to hospitals. They drove, I mean, they drove to the morgue. They drove to the forensic center at Abu Kabir where the bodies will be examined to ensure that these are indeed the four people who we think they are and to try to determine the cause of death.'
Matti Friedman: 'And hundreds of millions of people across the Middle East and across the world support Hamas.'
Matti Friedman: 'It represents a huge part of Palestinian society.'
Matti Friedman: 'So, like other hostages who are still being held and some have been released, they were taken by people who aren't part of Hamas, but who used the same tactics and saw this as a completely legitimate action to take.'
Matti Friedman: 'One thing that we learned from October 7th, and I'm saying this primarily to myself, as someone who's always been a person of liberal sentiments and who's always hoped for peace with the Palestinians and with the broader Arab world, I think that we now know that you can pay an unbearable price for your delusions.'
Matti Friedman: 'I think when you have an event of the scale of October 7th and the number of casualties, we're talking about 1,200 fatalities, Israeli fatalities on October 7th and 250 hostages, which are numbers that are just...'
Matti Friedman: 'And you saw them on hostage posters in the United States. You saw them being ripped down in the United States.'
Matti Friedman: 'And Hamas claims that they were killed in an Israeli airstrike, and that is false.'
Dan Senor: 'Seth Mandel from Commentary Magazine wrote a piece about what the Bebas family represents.'
Dan Senor: 'Kfir became a symbol because he's the answer to every relevant question about this conflict.'
Matti Friedman: 'I was just thinking about that this morning as I wrote a piece about this for the Free Press which is this strange psychological space that this family occupied for Israelis since very early on in the war when Hamas announced that they'd been killed in an Israeli airstrike.'
Matti Friedman: 'So there was always this possibility that this was a trick of some kind. But I think more than anything else, it was an unwillingness to accept that this family had been killed because they We were intimately familiar with their faces.'
Dan Senor: 'But Nadav Ayal posted something on X yesterday that I just want to read here. He wrote, ...stating the obvious, because in today's world, it isn't obvious anymore. A terror regime that kidnaps a mother and her babies is responsible for their fate. If they die, it is cold-blooded murder.'
Matti Friedman: 'And today the education ministry sent around suggestions for how parents and teachers should speak to kids about this.'
Matti Friedman: 'So I just asked one of my 17-year-olds, I have 17-year-old twins, boys, I just asked him what they were talking about today in school.'
Matti Friedman: 'I think the question today is not that different than the question yesterday, which is, what do we do now?'
Matti Friedman: 'Israelis have no faith that peace is going to be possible with our neighbors.'
Matti Friedman: 'But when the media started to be used almost as a weapon against against Israel where our enemies were creating these very powerful propaganda narratives that told a story of their victory and our defeat.'
Matti Friedman: 'So Israel's position in the Middle East has been revolutionized in many ways over the past six months.'
Matti Friedman: 'It's just not going to happen. It's not that kind of event. It's not a big terror attack. It's not a short war. It's a seminal event that's changing the way Israelis see themselves and their place in the region.'
Matti Friedman: 'Someone like me, maybe someone like you, we have certain ideas and, you know, we're pretty far along in our lives and our kids aren't. I mean, for many of our kids, this is really the first thing that they will remember.'
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