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Oh, 100%. They have all the tools. They have all the advantages, right? So that's why I always tell myself, I only need to jump on that trend

once a day. And as long as I'm on that trend once a day and try to pick up that one impulsive move, that's good enough for me. I don't need to pick up like the entire move of the day. I don't need to pick up all five impulses of the day because I know I don't have all the information, like you said, you know, like the institutions, the banks, the algorithm is the one that dictates the momentum shifts of the day. So it's all about capital preservation because you never know when the momentum is going to shift.

Markets, speculation, and risk. This is the Chat with Traders podcast. And we meet again on Chat with Traders, episode 288. It's Tessa, your co-host, and today Ian speaks with Steve B., a professional independent trader that I consider to be a good friend who we got to know organically through the Chat with Traders community when we were open and active at the time.

And as some of you know, Steve teamed up with our community mentor at the time, Patrick Peterson, who we also interviewed on episode 260. Together, they ran the Chapters community live trading room. It was started because it was driven by a group of members desire to learn from

their trading approach and strategies. And though their styles differ from each other, Patrick and Steve, their shared trading work ethic and passion for the markets was a strong force in the community that was an inspiration to many of our members.

And they traded mainly futures on the major indices. And Steve is known to be a Confluence intraday trader, which you'll get an understanding of what that is for him in a moment. I just remember many of our members were very interested in their trading approach. And in fact, some switched over from trading stocks or Forex to trading futures.

And one of the things I remember about their charts was that the charts were very minimalistic with just a few things on it. But I remember specifically that they had these lines representing key levels that were important to them. And I'm not talking about ordinary support and resistance lines that you interpret and draw out yourself.

These were different, at least to me at the time. These were lines derived from the data from the options market that helped build their roadmap. And it was part of their daily routine every morning before trading. But did you catch something?

Why are these traders who don't trade options using options data for their trading when trading futures? Well, perhaps you'll be able to connect some of the dots in this chat and gain some new insights from what Steve has to share with us today and his journey. Steve's been in the markets for about 10 years now, and I'm so drawn to his practical attitude towards trading and how he sees trading as an income stream to feed into building his wealth.

with the end goal, of course, to having more freedom, both financially and time-wise, to really enjoy his family, friends, and life. So we hope you enjoy this episode. Happy listening. Ladies and gentlemen, we're so pleased to introduce Steve B. from Calgary, Canada.

Welcome to Chat with Traders, or actually, maybe I should say welcome back to Chat with Traders because you've been an active member in the Chat with Traders community. Thanks again, Ian and Tessa, and it's my great pleasure to be here and have this interview with you. Yeah. So where are you? So yeah, so currently right now I'm out west, or I should say northwest in Calgary, Canada. I'm up north. That's where I was born and raised, and that's where I currently am located right now. So

Let's get into your background, things you studied in school and your early interests. So I'm first generation Canadian. I was brought up by a European family, immigrated from Eastern Europe to Canada. And of course, they taught me the traditional way.

was to always work hard in school, stay busy in athletics, always be busy with different kinds of sports all across from basketball, soccer, and tennis. And later continued my studies, continued my studies in post-secondary college. So very traditional family.

from Europe. And of course, I went towards that direction and ended up finishing a bachelor's degree in business with a minor in finance and a major in accounting. Actually, that was my background there, which I would say

It definitely helped with my foundation and understanding just the function of businesses and how they work from A to Z. That's how I was brought up. And with the trading side, I would say later in my college years was the time when I opened up my first equity trading account with TD Bank here in Canada. And this was early entry.

into investing and definitely allowed me to develop like a deeper understanding of financial markets and especially into that deep pain that we all go through of losing and accepting that loss. So yeah, I definitely learned that early on, but we can definitely go into that later and explain how important it was to endure those losses. So sorry, let me, let me rephrase, endure those small losses, Ian.

all throughout my career, small enough in order to build those larger wins later on. And then after college, of course, went into my first few jobs, worked up the traditional corporate ladder and slowly with various accounting roles, also consulting roles, I was able to gain some invaluable experience, of course, to the workforce. And I think one was very important was discipline and

And having those daily routines that I find very important in trading as well. Just always being, you know, what time to wake up, understanding your meetings and what time to leave and get home. So just that day-to-day priority, I thought that was very important. How many years ago did you open up your first investment slash trading account? Yeah, so that was over 10 years. So it's been about 10, 11 years since I opened my first broker account.

So given that you come from an accounting type background, a business type background, what were you looking at when you would buy a stock? Are you, were you a fun look at fundamentals kind of what were the criteria for you to buy a stock?

Yeah, so in the beginning, it was all about looking for those sectors that had good discounts. I always looked at those major sectors across the board, which have been selling off for a while. I tried to get in early, looked at the fundamentals.

And of course, I tried to look into more, more so like the medium to like larger cap stocks. And yeah, whatever was giving me good discounts that wasn't really trending were good discounts for a few years. And I would buy those up and just kind of wait for the rally and like the buy side to start to set in. So that was kind of my my understanding and my strategy early on with stocks. Would you consider yourself at that time more of a value investor?

Yeah, more of a value investor. Just picking out, you know, like the if oil, oil and gas was because oil and gas, those are specialty where I was from. So that was had a few down years and, you know, the price of oil was down near like 50, 60 dollars per barrel. Then I would just pick up the strong stocks.

average down and just hold them for a few years. So that was definitely my strategy longer term in the beginning. Yeah, definitely had some patience there to hold on for quite a bit of time, right? Yes, yes, exactly. Until you come to fruition. So you stuck with stocks for some time?

Yeah, I stuck with stocks. I felt that my capital was definitely a lot safer than the traditional banks. And of course, with the traditional banks, once you open the brokers, your main assets are either mutual funds where you let the banks do the investing for you and they just pay you out 3%, 4% dividends. But of course, I want to master the skill myself. So just whatever stocks were...

available. I started investing in, oh yeah, it was just very, it was very long-term. It was in the beginning because at the time I was, I was busy with college as well, studying. And then once I got into the workforce, I was always, of course I had to like learn the procedures and everything going on. So I was always busy with other things in that sense. So I didn't have time to day trade or anything in that sense early on. And how did you like your career?

Career was fine. Of course, I eventually was having issues with not issues so much, but just the time it took to climb that ladder was too long for me. And I saw my parents go through it and some family friends and how it took, you know, 10, 15 years to reach that seniority. And of course, you know, and also came with taking your master's or be a CFA or CPA in accounting, which I didn't mind either going through more education. But the time it took,

So it started to deteriorate for me. And it just, it just, it was just too much when I had other plans. I was, I've always, I was always an entrepreneur at heart. So I felt there was another path for me. And yeah, that's, I guess that's, that's kind of how I started talking or started,

the next next path in my life because yeah just it was just it was just taking time away from me after being in there for seven eight years um i was able to save enough money to create a different path for myself i see so so when did you uh think that investing or trading could actually become your primary source of what you do

Yeah, so I had to create a template for myself and a strategy, of course. Start building a clientele while I was working full time as well as capital, reserve capital. Because, of course, you know, I was married, I had a family. I would never advise taking that leap without having the right amount of capital as well as like a template, a strategy.

of how to continuously start earning revenue for your company. So yeah, that was the main part it took away. And of course, understanding the full steps of a business and how it works, not only from the sales side, but the accounting side in the back end as well. And that's something I was able to learn during my time on the corporate end was the accounting and truly how

That's as the liabilities mesh together and how to correctly build your inventory. So in that sense, as a trader, your inventory is your capital and how to precisely manage that going forward. Interesting. So you took what you learned on the job and through school as a way to how you allocated your capital between different businesses and how much cash you kept on hand and what have you?

Yeah, exactly. And like, I always had a natural feel towards business as well as a young age. I was always drawn to like the sales side, the economics and always like data-driven decisions as well. So like even in the early years of high school, I was taking business-related courses. So I was always already familiar with myself, like with sales and marketing and accounting early on in high school. So that definitely like started fueling my curiosity about the financial markets. And I feel like that

But early exposure definitely helped me kind of just tunnel vision into something that I enjoyed as a profession. And I wasn't forced into anything else because I feel like that's the issue as well. A lot of people early on is they waste away so many years on something they don't enjoy and feel like eventually it could be too late to start something new. So luckily, I found that profession I enjoyed early on and stuck with it. When did you make the decision that you want to quit your job and go into trading full time?

Yeah, so that was definitely, it took some time. But the decision to leave my job was definitely, there was a few factors there, I would say first before when. Primarily was when I was just having too many constraints with the overhead, with just too much management above me, like too much resistance, as you'd say in the markets, just above me, market structure, or sorry, management structures, and just too many policies limiting my time. That's the biggest thing I always value is time.

And just working under all those layers of management made it difficult to pursue just my personal ideas and business ventures. So I realized that in order to truly pursue the greater business goals, I needed that freedom to take control of my professional direction where I want to head. So yeah, a significant aspect of the decision was definitely a desire to reclaim my time because definitely a lot of time was being taken away from me. And I started to realize that later, like later in my 20s, in my late 20s, I started to realize that.

as i grew older and had a wife and started you know building a family and got married so i just wanted that flexibility to create my own schedule um allowing myself to focus on only business

ventures, and also just the business development and work balance. So this transition has provided me with opportunity to build something while also maintaining the freedom to prioritize what truly mattered to me. Because I feel like when I had the nine to five, I wasn't able to prioritize too much what really mattered to me. More so just making that income, being done at Friday and then just focusing on the weekend where

So now I actually can't wait for Monday. I'm excited for Monday to occur, which is crazy. I want the market to open. So I'm like the opposite. So kind of how Patrick would always say in our community, and we always work side to side, we're waiting for that Monday open. Like I want the weekend to be over, which is nice to relax, of course. But once that Monday comes, I can't get any more excited. So it's funny how the script has flipped.

Yeah, now that I'm on my own now instead of through the nine to five. Yeah, so when you say that you couldn't wait for Monday to open, that seems to imply that

you wanted to make more kind of shorter term trading rather than the long-term buy and hold because the excitement of the new day of trading opening up, creating opportunities. Did you switch from a long-term buy and hold investor to more shorter term? So I have a mix of both. Of course, I'll always have my long-term investments, but the one way where I

I earn income and my revenue is now from my day-to-day trading. And majority of the time I am closing those days by a day's end as well. To just kind of free myself from the market, not having to check the charts, not having to stress about it because I feel like, yeah, once, especially when you use leverage, it's

it's a different story comparatively to stocks. With stocks, there's no leverage. You buy and hold for a long time. It's less likely if you enter any sort of margin call or whatnot. I'm not saying I use that much margin. I always stick to the 1% rule, of course, per day. But yeah, you just never have that risk of gapping and margin and leverage. So with stocks, there's a lot more flexibility and less stress. But with my day-to-day, my goal is always to close by day's end. So...

Were you ever seduced by the videos on YouTube of traders showing the new Lamborghini that they bought? Oh, 100%. We all went through it. We all sometimes even now, of course, to my experience, I look at it and I'm like, oh, it must be nice driving a Lamborghini because I would like to drive a

Lamborghini, who wouldn't? But of course, when we look at it, and I can get into this, of course, it's all an illusion. It's rented items, rented houses, a rented lifestyle, whether it's on a boat in Miami. But then again, it's not a bad business idea.

idea either because if you lure in clients and make money that's a that's that's a business venture right there as well right yeah i'm not saying it's very truthful or ethical but that works but that's that's never i promise you ian i promise you and tessa and patrick as well i'll never go down that road i promise you'll never see me flaunting a lamborghini so yeah but yeah of course when i first started trading most of my early moves were like invested orientated but i did

I feel like one of my biggest mistakes, especially early on, was watching these YouTubers trading the penny stocks, trading over the counter, low float stocks that could 100x your account. You bought them at pennies and they flipped to a dollar. We've all seen it before, but I feel like that was definitely one of the biggest mistakes I made. Why is that? Share with us.

Yeah. So, yeah, I was watching a couple of videos and just seeing some of these guys post their 10, 20, 100x returns in the OTC markets, penny stocks, because, you know, you get the adrenaline going, you get the hype.

You want that $100,000 to expand, right? You put in $1,000, why not, right? To make $100,000 off $1,000, that's everyone's dream. But yeah, that was definitely one of my biggest mistakes because there was definitely, it was more about the excitement and more about being a part of that community, even though it was the wrong community. But we can get into that later about community and how important that is. But I just started chasing these opportunities, hoping to replicate their success, even though who knows if it was real or not, because they can always manipulate the book.

But I learned quickly that those trades were far riskier than anticipated. Penny stocks, of course, are notorious for volatility and lack of liquidity as well. So just the chances of making consistent gains were very slim. So they're offering high risk and almost no reward. So that was the issue there. And yeah, since the reward was almost zero, I learned my big mistake.

And when, once those mistakes come in and you see red in your account and you keep dwindling down, yeah, that was a big life lesson. So that's definitely, uh, like I would say one of those big life lessons I never go back to and never touch penny stocks ever again. They're my lessons, but they get, then again, maybe it was good that I entered that market because I would never have that memory of

of having that loss, right? So let's say I'm at the current stage right now and I never entered the penny stocks or the OTC and I have some friends, some community members talking about it. And maybe now I'll dip into that market, not knowing, not realizing that low reward, high risk. So I feel like it was a good thing. I went through that when I was young, risked a lot of capital, lost the capital and never again. So definitely taught me the importance of developing my own strategy and not following anyone else on YouTube.

focusing on risk management and just avoiding the temptation of like a quick fix solution. So I found that just very important for myself. After the penny stock experience, what did you develop then? Like what did you get into to trade?

Yeah, of course. Yeah. So yeah, the next step was developing a process. And that's when I saw the opportunity from the day-to-day trading. I can go later on what I was trading, but first with the process, the journey of developing a solid process became with, or sorry, began with just an intense focus on data and understanding the underlying reason of why the market's moving. The market's not moving because of candlesticks. No, that's just a

presentation of movement because you can draw a line chart, a graph chart, and a candlestick. The candlesticks are not why the market moves. So I wanted a deeper feeling of seeing what is going on and realizing in the markets, just a deeper understanding of the mechanics of price action. And this meant studying the macro events to prepare for volatility spikes, as well as how these institutions

institutional players move within the markets. So I had to understand this first. So markets are very fluid, always evolving. And I found that momentum shifts can happen at any time at key points, not only at the hourly close. So the unpredictability made it challenging to always rely on chart patterns on the one minute or five minute

as well as increasing imbalances in candles. So beyond the price patterns, I found it was important to not only look at the volatility that we get on the VIX and the DXY, but also the order flow and other external factors I felt was very important. So in this process, of course, came a lot of mistakes and I had to continually adapt.

So incorporating risk management strategies, I felt like it was first and most important because no single approach will work without this strategy. So by focusing on the broader market and looking at the momentum shifts rather than predicting them, I was able to redefine my process to something more resilient and reliable. So chat with traders is brought to you by TastyTrade.

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I guess I would say one of the main factors though I was able to get an edge was my checklist. And it's similar, I would say, to an if statement in the, let's say, Excel spreadsheet. So if let's say a few checks did not clear in the morning,

my bias would change and the setup could also change into another idea later in the trading hour. So my process was based on time, volatility, and data. And then if I didn't get all my checks, that bias or that setup would be crossed off and then it would start forming into another idea maybe later on in the day. So that was my if statement on my checklist. So ultimately developing the process wasn't about

about finding like a magic formula. It was about more about continuous learning and just execution based on time and the probability of various scenarios. So while you're doing this day trading, you also have your long-term buy and hold investments. Is that correct? Yes, that's correct. Yeah. Okay. And then, so when you do the day trading, were you focused on specific stocks or indices? I mean, like what, what did you trade?

Since my trades were on the shorter term, I would say 95% of the time I'm closing my positions at the end of the day. So if I'm closing my positions at the end of the day, I need leverage.

I need a good amount of margin and I need to be trading markets with, of course, large amounts of volume, data, and the smallest amount of slippage. So of course, these two assets are the S&P and NASDAQ, clean and simple. So these assets were always aligned, also aligned with like the location and timeframe for also where I'm living in North America.

I was always going to get volatility once New York hit. So it definitely made it much easier to wake up in the mornings, prepare myself for that New York volatility, and also close my book later on, especially my time out in time during lunchtime, and just be able to enjoy my day with my family and friends later on. So it just clean and simple gave me the freedom to trade.

and not have to worry about like the London session and Asian session as well in the Forex market. So let's go into your checklist. What are the items in your checklist? With my checklist, because I'm always looking at data, volume and exposure, things I always look for is because whatever happened in the previous day, it doesn't matter as much unless sometimes like sometimes I would look at...

Let's say the daily pivot, the weekly pivot, just to look at a more macro zoomed out outlook. But usually whatever happened the previous day doesn't really affect me because anything can happen during pre-market and during the moment. Momentum can shift at any time. So the first thing I look at is where are the largest areas of supply and demand or in the options market, we would say exposure. So I look at these levels and I put them on my chart.

Clean and simple. Okay, so where is price? So my first checklist is where is New York opening? Or sorry, where is the pre-market opening? And where is like, let's say 30 minutes after going to be opening as well on my checklist? Is it like in bullish or bearish territory with exposure and volume? And then second on my checklist is does the risk and reward make sense?

Because if the risk makes sense, but the reward or price I would start making taking profit doesn't make sense, then the trade is invalidated. Both ends have to make sense. Give me at least a nice two to three to one, even four to one risk reward, because of course, we're not going to be winning every trade. It has to be higher reward than risk at the time. And yeah, if the both ends are not making sense, then it's invalidated as well.

And I would say a third checklist would definitely be my Confluence because I'm a Confluence trader. So if I'm trading the NASDAQ, I like to bring up the VIX, I like to bring up the DXY, and I like to bring up the options market and let's say the Magnificent Seven. The top seven stocks, what are they doing, especially the tech stocks, and how are they correlated and how are they responding? Because a lot of times if they're responding, let's

let's say 50-50 divergence, that could also play a part in NASDAQ. Or if they're all moving the same way with the same amount of volume, that could also create an idea for NASDAQ as well. So those are three of the main checklists I look at. What are the makes I've been doing and how are my other confluences? And once they react to certain zones, when I set the alerts, where is NASDAQ and how is NASDAQ reacting at the certain level? So that's all. I see. So you're trading, what,

both NASDAQ futures and S&P futures or just the... Yes, that's correct. Yeah, that's correct. The futures as well as I have a couple like CFD brokers as well because they give me better margin. And it was also like I enjoy using their risk tools because that's usually the only indicators and tools I use is the risk parameters because volatility every day is going to be different. And one good way to look at is the VIX, right? Like today, for example, we have a good example how the Fed, we had a Fed speaker, Jerome Powell,

And once he started speaking, we had a huge increase in volatility. So of course, how I'm measuring risk is going to be...

Convert into dollar form is going to be much different than yesterday because the volatility is much different. I'm always risking the same amount in dollar form or percentage form, let's say 1% per day. But the moves are going to be much greater today than they were yesterday because we had Jerome Powell speaking. So that's why I'm always looking as well to protect myself. Not entering the same amount of lots or the same amount of contracts per se as the other day.

Oh, I see. So depending on how you assess the risk at that moment, you will size your position accordingly. That's correct. Yeah. So that's another important key factor in my checklist is first wait for that volatility spike, measure the risk and always have the same amount in dollar form every day because I feel like that's important. And that's how a lot of traders blow out because they don't realize that every day is different. Sometimes you're going to have like low ranging choppy days and other days you're going to have Jerome Powell speaking.

and completely take you out because you're thinking, okay, I put on five contracts the other day and I was fine, I was safe, but five contracts today is going to be offering a lot different risk exposure for your trading and for your risk managing. Because at the end of the day, I find the term trade or misleading, it should be more of a risk manager because you're managing your portfolio, you're managing your equity in dollar form, so you should be a risk manager

more so than a trader. So that's why I always look at it. - So, okay. So say you, like let's dive into the process even deeper. So say you look at the NASDAQ before the market opens or the S&P and you notice that it's hovering down near support levels and the support levels appear to be decent.

What are you doing? Are you then looking also at these top seven stocks to see their movement? And if they are in alignment with a possible, say, bullish move to the upside, does their representation and how they move individually influence whether you go long and and the size of how much you go long?

I would say it's more so an average of the seven. I like to look at where the average of the seven is going. And if they start increasing their exposure or start heading towards these, let's say, institutional levels that I draw on my charts and how they're responding to it relative to NASDAQ. So if they're painting a completely different picture than S&P and NASDAQ, then I like to be patient and wait.

because a lot of times the movements can be a little delayed when compared to indices. Like we can also go into like how I'm trading, whether I'm trading indicators or whatnot, because for me, I like to stay away from indicators. Yeah.

I've learned my lesson. So for me, they just make my charts a little too messy because already I have my risk drawing tools that are calculated on my brokers, as well as my levels that I create from data. So that's why I like to take away the indicators. Probably the only time you'll see an indicator is when I am trailing my position. I like to trail it either on the ATR or the SMA.

When I'm just closely trailing it and about to close out my position, it's probably the only time I'll use the indicator because of course they're all delayed based on candlesticks. And for me, before making a decision to enter a market, I know it was never in the past. In the past, I was never be able to gain an edge on candlesticks alone, especially when I'm trading on the shorter term. On the shorter term,

Intraday. Swing trading, of course, is much different. You have a lot more data. You have a lot more time. You don't have to be as precise. But because I have to be a little more precise, I cannot be trading on the candlesticks, right? Because all of those coded metrics are all calculated on past performing price action. So any script you create or readjust to your liking can be looked at as an illusion, right? Of past performance and

And will never lead to consistent future results. So I've been there. I've coded on PineScript and TradingView. You know, I've tried to give myself the highest earning profit factor. And I've tested, readjusted, looked back at the script in real time. And just to readjust that P&L. And then always when I would start forward testing, my profit factor and my P&L would always go down. Because past performance. Because when you're coding these strategies on TradingView, it's an illusion. Because you always try and get yourself the best profit factor, right? Yeah.

The past results are never going to copy onto the future, especially on day-to-day structure. Cause every day is different, especially when different like newsprints coming out and like momentum shift with the rates and whatnot going on, you know, once Jerome Powell starts speaking about like economics and job reports and whatnot. So yeah, it's the profit factor would always diminish. And I learned the hard way. I still have to test it out to see if I was able to code something for myself intraday by, with, by,

by profit factor, always going downhill, diminishing. It just never worked out. So anyways, I learned a large lesson, but it was a good one and I wouldn't give up on it. So that's why I always started studying live volume and entered the world of options exposure and dealer positioning. This is where I gained edge. This is where I started to kind of realize the cycles of markets per day, per week and where, and where, um, and

And where and why price movement usually likes to make magnetized towards a certain area and certain level. It would kind of make sense. So, and for my day to day, I didn't have to pick out the best entries. I didn't have to be as precise, but instead I always tried to spot the trend and pick off that one major move of each day. That's all that mattered. Whether we had three or four major moves, I only needed one for the day and that was good enough for me. So with the option flow and dealer positioning, um,

whether it's pre-market during futures or 15, 30 minutes after New York, which I like to wait if I didn't get a setup beforehand, I was able to find that major impulse. And once I am able to find that trend and that major impulse, once you see the institutional volume start kicking in, that was good enough for me. So all that was needed for me is to identify one major trend. And that was enough to steer away from overtraining as well. Close my book.

and be done for the day. So I see. And how do you, you mentioned prices gravitating towards certain levels and institutional involvement. How do you measure that? Like go into detail on, on,

how that works. Yeah. So of course, there's a couple of platforms you can go online to gather this information from the options market. So they're just large exposure levels. So you can also mix this in with high volume levels or time and sales that entered in the past, but you want to also forward test and use live data as well. And every day it's recalculated. So I would implement these institutional levels onto my charts every day since it's recalculated.

and just wait for price to start entering these zones. And that's when I look at the live volume. So once they enter these institutional zones,

So these zones, these levels are there for market makers to identify the high exposure, whether they have to start hedging or let's say the level starts rejecting, then they don't have to hedge anymore. So kind of these squeeze zones. Now I'd always look at the live volume and see how price is reacting on those important levels. So it also helped me not to overtrade because I just be patient, set my alert and

And once like either the Mix 7 or NASDAQ or S&P start entering these levels, even the VIX, the VIX has some option flow as well. I was able to just stay patient and wait for the market to show its hand if it's getting rejected or if it's going to start squeezing through to the next level.

So that's kind of, that's, that's, that's, that's how I'm always able to trade. So, so, so describe squeezing to the next level. You mentioned market makers and volume. I mean, you're talking about the options market here. Yeah. So the options market, when you look at NASDAQ S&P, of course, that's spying QQQ, but end of the day, it's the same chart as futures and CFDs. It's all the same chart, but you're looking at different sides of volume exposure. So this is a,

And we all know as well that institutions use the options market to hedge their positions as well. So the institutions, if they're positioned in NASDAQ, they have positions in the futures market, they have positions in the stock market, and then they use the options market to hedge. And what's happening in the options market is you have those dealer positions in certain important areas.

And they always have to match the buys and the sells in certain areas, right? So that's why I always stay away from like the 50% range between the two levels as well, because you have a lot of chip chop. And that always helps because once it reaches that level and I look at volume, it gives me a higher probability setup, whether it's going to take it to the next level above or get rejected and sell down below. So this is, you know, because at the end of the day, we're all small fish in the sea. We have no influence in the market. So therefore, I'm never trying to beat the market, right? I'm never trying to beat it.

And my whole purpose is just to catch that one small move of the day that gives me the high probability setup and just be on the right side of the trend. That's all I'm looking for. I don't have to be so precise to the very tick. And for when the time comes, I just capitalize, put in my risk. And if the risk reward makes sense on both ends, I take the trade and be done with it. So usually one to two trades a day, but I like to minimize it to just one trade a day. So you mentioned volume. Are you talking volume of the underlying or volume of the options?

So just the live volume, I usually eye this through the futures market. So I look at the delta. I sometimes look at the footprint, how each, let's say, candlestick, comparing the two candlesticks, which traded on more volume, which is stronger, the buy side or the sell side pressure.

on that zone. But I don't mess around in between what's happening, the volatility, the chip chop. I just wait until it hits my zone, hits my institutional level, and then I make a decision based on the live volume.

So when you say when it hits the level, are you talking about levels of strong support, say, where they've sold many puts or areas of resistance where there's a lot of concentrated call open interest at certain key levels? Are you looking for it to break one of these congested levels? Yeah. So these are these are like call put levels.

Gamma exposures. So gamma as well as delta exposures. And then I always look for the highest exposed levels for the day. So because they're always recalculated by end of day and then in the morning right before New York. So I always look for these areas because these are obviously important areas. The market makers are increasing the exposure because there's a reason behind it. There's always a story behind it. So that's why I'm able to be a little patient on it. But I'm not looking so much as like the live option market. I'm not looking because...

When you see a big order in the options market, whether it's the call or a put, just because it's a large call, let's say above ask or below bid, you can't really decipher whether it's a long or short because it can easily be a hedge and be wanting to go the other direction. That's why I just focus on the exposure levels.

the story behind it and where it's placed during New York. And then I look into the live volume on the futures end and line that up with my confluences. And of course, I have to be quick as well, because sometimes the move can happen very fast. But I've been in the markets long enough where I can kind of decipher what's going on, set my checklist, set my risk, which is most important, like I said, on both ends, if they make sense. And I just let the trade play out.

I see. So it sounds like you're kind of juggling a bunch of different areas that you're looking at simultaneously, right? You're looking at the VIX, you're looking at support and resistance on the NASDAQ or whatever S&P, and you're looking at also support and resistance of key areas where a lot of option open interest is concentrated. Is that correct? That's correct. Yes.

And then, so what happens if a level, if it starts to go above the area of quote resistance on the call side and it starts moving up, who care? I mean, what is this gamma exposure and why do we, why should we care? Yeah. So the reason we should care is because if it starts squeezing and the market makers need to start hedging and the institutions start hedging, then the, then the move can be very fast. It can be rapid.

To the upside. To the upside. So this could also bring in a new strategy where you can start hedging. I wouldn't advise, especially any beginners, to start hedging because at the end of the day, you need capital and you need margin, right? If you're risking low enough where you have plenty of margin to work with to start hedging and know where you're hedging to and you're watching the live data either

either in the options market in the future and it can make sense. But at the end of the day, I feel like if it's rapidly moving against you, it's probably a good time to just close it and call it a day. Because if your risk reward, if your probability is always more than two to three to one, why risk the hedge and just be out for the day and just close the book, in my opinion? Because I just find it so important to learn from these losses. You sometimes need to embrace these losses. That's the thing. Because each loss becomes like a data point.

into your memory, into your journey. And it should just be a data point rather than something personal, right? You're not, you should never be emotionally attached to that outcome. So sometimes, like I said, if it's rapidly going against you, just close it, be done, journal it and see how,

how you can better your probability or risk reward. But then again, also remember that you can't always be right and be happy for the loss. Be happy for the loss or that small loss compared to if it could have been a much greater loss. Because once price starts rapidly moving the other direction, it's better to just close it and be done with it. Because that's another important thing. When people journal, they should look at the timing of their losses and their wins. And if the time of your losses are much greater, that's an issue as well. You always want to cut them a lot earlier.

When you look at support and resistance areas, do you ever enter an order like a buy stop order to buy once it it crosses above that resistant resistance area and or putting in a stop loss? Do you use either of those? Yeah, so I always use stop loss because the market can turn any time you could go out for a coffee.

Anything can happen with your life. You always need to protect yourself. Even though like, I know I've caught myself a few times not putting a stop, even though my stop was well above that position where I didn't have to, you know, stress too much about it. But of course I advise everyone to always put a stop. You never know what's going to go on. Maybe you forget that there's some big volatility event coming up, right? Either Jerome Powell speaking or we have CPI, NFP, and you completely forgot about that news.

and you let on a trade without a stop loss, that could put yourself in danger, right? Whether you're trading your own capital or prop firm capital, always put on the stop just in case and always measure it where it's in an area where it makes sense for it to get stopped down. If it reaches that area, then your bias is completely invalidated. That's important as well.

Because the market can go either which direction, right? That's why I said before, never get emotionally attached. Always stay grounded and then kind of embrace that loss as well. But where it's small enough that you gain further knowledge and then come back much bigger.

So I think that's always important. So you leave enough margin and enough capital for the future. So be out of that trade, close the book, or if you see another setup, make sure you risk less. So it's always about surviving into the future, into the next day. I find that to be very important. What do you do for position sizing? Do you just, you say you bet the same amount each time or same dollar? Yeah, so I have a position size calculator.

all my brokers. And then I always make sure I wait for the volatility to kick in. And then I measure based on the volatility and I always convert it into dollar form or percentage form. Let's say 1% of your capital and then to dollar form. So it's always the same amount. Never try and bid more sizing, especially on like a crazy day like today where we had chop, you know, like J-PAL came on, we went up a hundred points and then we sold off 200 points. It's like, no, like don't, that's when you,

That's when you'll become, you'll be humbled very quickly. It's like the market will sit you down on your ass very quickly and try and reassess it. So I always try to keep it the same every day, keep it consistent because I don't like to stray away from any crazy ideas because one explosive idea can really put you back a few steps. I always try and go four or five steps and sometimes one step back.

and create the momentum forward. Like the S&P, you zoom out on the S&P on the weekly and the monthly, it's slowly trending up. I try to have my profile at the same chart as S&P, slowly grinding up, not having crazy volatile turns. Of course, you're going to have a black swan event here and there, but as long as you're not risking too much of your capital. Why do you think more traders are using options data when trading futures? It's a good way to...

I feel like, like you said, with support and resistance, because what is support and resistance or what's a good area of support? It's when supply and demand is usually equal. If price settles in a strong area, it means the buyers and the sellers are the same. Price hasn't moved out from that area, right? And then what happens when there's an imbalance is that when the price either shoots up or shoots down from the area, there's a greater demand or greater supply. So what...

The options market does, it creates these exposure levels and it can a lot of time maybe align with your supply and demand as well. So if you link up those strong supply and demand zones with the options market, that could create like an extra confluence as well. So I always needed more confluence. I could never just base it on time and sales and candlesticks. I always needed that third extra data print to give me something, just give me some sort of edge, right?

Um, and, and I also found that the options market offers retail traders a lot more data than, um, other sites. So like comparatively to the stock market or the futures market, or even the Forex market where you don't really get any data at all. Of course the banks on that market. So they, they get to see everything. Um,

on supply and demand. But when it comes to the options market, now it's interconnected with the major stocks, SPY and QQQ, I found they just gave me the most relevant information for when the time came to make a decision whether to go long or short. So it's always helped me. How did your consistency evolve over time? And what factors do you believe helped to improve your consistency?

Let's talk about the psychology aspect, because I know this is everyone's favorite topic. And it was definitely the psychology part that helped me throughout the whole process. And buddy, and let's talk about this. There's no real psychology without facing the pain of your not only your mistakes, but your loss. Right. You need to build that resilience. That's what always helps. So every loss becomes a new experience.

learning opportunity rather than failure. That's how I always looked at it. So it just time and time again, it took time. It took years. There's no way I learned that craft within a few days. It took a long time. You need to go through this struggle. So like, so after I analyzed it, refined my strategy with timing, understanding marketing conditions, option flow, like the psychology aspect kind of came, it just

it just naturally came with time. So like once I got over that mindset, that losses are not never to be feared, but accepted as a natural aspect of trading. That's when I was able to solve the first and more, the most important step of psychology, really. Like once I was able to just accept the loss, if it goes against me and prepare for the new day. So by embracing this mindset definitely helped me reduce emotional spikes that also could cause FOMO and overtrading. So like I said, with the example,

once price, let's say, squeezing at a certain level rapidly, instead of holding onto that loss, I knew right away it was invalidated and I cut my losses quickly. So definitely that experience helped me protect my capital over time. So yeah, the one rule I always remind myself is

Don't stay away from the lower timeframe as well, because that would always increase my stress levels. Either the one minute or the five minute on the candlesticks, lower the timeframe, higher the stress to stay away from that. But you're day trading. I mean, um, so when you day trade these futures, uh, what kind of timeframe are you using? So I don't, I don't like to look so much into the candlesticks. Like I said, I only look into the candlesticks, um,

When I'm live into a trade and about to take profit or trailing it down But once I'm making my decision or entering the trade I like to stay zoomed out because it's not so much on a candlesticks It's so much of where we are what time of day and what the volume is giving me at that certain period of time Whether it's options market in the futures market. So it's more so just all those like but the time where location and

and the volume. Like, what does it give me? I, candlestick doesn't matter to me. Whether it's like a bullish forming candle, like 50 minutes or a bearish forming or an engulfing or a three, three bar pattern. I feel like for me, those are just distractions. I stay, I stay away from that. So that's definitely helped me.

Earlier, when you were talking about resistance or support, many investors imagine looking at a chart and saying, oh, look at this double top, triple top, or double bottom, and oh, it looks like it's strong support here based on what I see in the chart. But it sounds as if that when you're also looking at the options market and concentration of positions for gamma exposure on the call and the put side, that couldn't they have their own levels that are not necessarily –

indicated or obvious by looking at just a chart? Oh, 100%. They have all the tools. They have all the advantages, right? So that's why I always tell myself, I only need to jump on that trend once a day

And as long as I'm on that trend once a day and try to pick up that one impulsive move, that's good enough for me. I don't need to pick up like the entire move of the day. I don't need to pick up all five impulses of the day because I know I don't have all the information, like you said, you know, like the institutions, the banks, the algorithm, which we can get into maybe later if we have time, is the one that dictates the momentum shifts of the day.

I never like to stay greedy. That's why I always look to trail my profit, either take half off at a certain level and trail the rest. If it continues to sell, it continues to buy. So it's all about capital preservation because you never know when the momentum is going to shift. It can happen at any time. I've seen it happen at any time. I've seen it happen during New York lunch. I've seen it happen even before power hour. The power hour is dead. It's crazy at all. Like there's a shift. The shift can happen at any time.

And the algorithm creates that shift, yeah.

I see. So, so getting back to the psychology, then when you see a big spike and you're long and you're, you're on the correct side of the trade, how often do you have feelings of like, oh, this, this could be really it. And, and, uh, you know, you're, you're, you're on a strong trend and you're already thinking of all the money you're, you're making. How do you keep the discipline to cut some of your position? Because the old saying, the trend is your friend. Well, why not just keep riding it? Who knows how high it could go?

Yeah, it's, it's the experience, my friend, it's, it's the experience where so many times I thought this could go further and it comes right back to my break even and takes me out or I, or I just started increasing my stop loss. It's just that nightmare or that memory. That's why I said like, you need, you need that memory. You need that experience. You need to just,

trade, live test, forward test more and more. Because if you don't have that pain in your mind of what happened so many other times, so many years ago, then you're never going to be able to create that discipline. So that's why I created that strategy where I cut off 50% once it hits, let's say my next level. And then whether or not it continues, I just trail it. And if it takes out my trail, and maybe instead of a nice four or five to one, it just gives me, let's say one and a half, two to one, I'm happy with it and I'm done for the day.

Because I accepted that the market doesn't want to continue further, doesn't want to push further or start squeezing to the next level. And I accept that factor because for me, at the end of the day, trading, I like to look at it as passive income. I like to look at it as passive because if I look at it as passive income and not some exotic way to make revenue, then I can keep it consistent every day. That's the whole purpose.

Because that's another thing that I like to start increasing in my personal portfolio is passive income. Have other ways to create passive income, whether it's real estate, whether it's yielding dividend stocks and also trading, keep it all the same. That definitely creates consistency with the corporation that I was able to build.

with my firm so i i see so so uh it's is it your habit then to uh periodically take out um profits that you generate from day trading and put them into other asset classes and if so kind of what other asset classes do you you put in and what what are your other styles of investing of course yes so i usually like to withdraw weekly more bi-weekly keep it consistent and

First, I calculate my expenses, my mortgage, everything first that comes first for the family. And then whatever I have left over, I redeploy into a new business venture, whether it could be like real estate, it could be land as well, but land is longer term or whatever.

dividend paying, high yielding stocks or funds that can just over time, just pay me a nice 4% to 5% per quarter, per annual, and kind of let that ride until retirement. So have that capital preservation and make just extra income, low taxable income that's steady and not stressful. So I don't need these exotic big moves. I just kind of keep my trading the same as I keep these other dividend payouts.

And it takes time, right? Like I see so many portfolios online, probably the only YouTubers and portfolio guys I like to follow online are the big dividend guys. And they all say it took 10 to 20 years for them to build a sizable portfolio just to actually start generating good enough income per month where that's all they need to rely on. But it takes time, right? Like I'm in my own early 30s. I know I'm not going to be able to build like a sizable amount until probably maybe another 10 years, but I'm slowly...

building that mainly into like funds and other like individual stocks that pay at least on average four to 5%. Cause I learned that lesson as well as if I try to find those stocks that pay higher dividend, like 10 to 15%, it's a little too risky. The risk is too great on that sense. I just like to keep it very conservative. Yeah.

Right, right, right. So when you were in the chat with traders community, you were known for using multiple funded accounts to build your portfolio. Yes. Was that difficult to manage? And how did that impact your trading in any way? No, it wasn't difficult. I always looked at it as an investment. That's how I always looked at it. So, you know, you pay the challenge fees. Let's say you pay $500 for an account. And if I was able to, over time, either in a month or two,

10 to 20x that amount, then that was a good return on investment. But I would, of course, during my challenges, be a little more aggressive. And then once I became funded with these pro firms, I would be a lot more conservative. Just risking like a quarter percent, maybe half a percent per day. Very easygoing. And then once I get my payouts, I get paid right away.

and just use it as an investment. I haven't been using these pro firms as much lately. I don't want to talk too much about it, but of course, especially on the CFD side, there's been a lot of businesses going down. But like any investment, there's a risk. That's how I look at it, right? You can't expect these companies to go on forever. For me, I didn't take it personally. I had no emotions behind it. I used one or two of the companies as well that went down.

what can you do? Same as any investment, any stock you play out, there's always a risk for that company going down and your investment going to zero. There's always that risk. For me, that's how I always looked at it. If I was at least able to 5X to 10X return on that investment, I found it to be a good decision, to be honest. Currently, right now, it's mainly trading my personal, my corporate portfolio. But

Of course, I'm not telling anyone not to or what to do as an early trader or even as a seasoned professional trader, but it's definitely a good way to leverage your capital as well as network and build a community as well. So not only your own community, but talk with like-minded professionals, I think is very important.

Yeah. Well, speaking of which, one person that was very prominent in the chat with traders community and who was also interviewed earlier was Patrick, Patrick Peterson. And I'm kind of curious to learn what did you what did you learn from him and other traders that you observed in these various forums and communities?

Yeah, like that. Of course. And then like, I learned a lot from Patrick. He's gone through it all. He has lots of experience. And I'm still learning from him and I are still, you know, we're still working together and enjoying our time. And yeah, it's always been always had positive feedback about him. And yeah, like the power of networking. So important.

I feel like it's something that's not talked about enough in the trading world because it is a lonely journey. And I find it very important to go out there and network, whether it's a community or, you know, like during a lot of these pro firm companies as well, provide that ability to network or sometimes in person.

If you are, and if you're in a major city and like go out there and meet other traders as well. So it just, you know, allows you to connect with like-minded professionals with the same passion as you have. And yeah, like these connections are invaluable because they provide opportunities and exercises that,

that you wouldn't seem necessary unless you came across them on your own, right? Competerly to the corporate ladder. Of course, that's the one thing I do miss is, you know, the company parties, right? Like the afternoon session, you know, like times we're able to come together with other coworkers, especially if we work downtown in the banking sector, a lot of good times, whether during lunchtime or after work. And,

And yeah, it's just, it's a very, that, that is definitely like a connection that a lot of traders miss. And, but yeah, when CWT was able to provide that with the community, with a lot of the zoom calls and the face-to-face, yeah, we found that experience very inspiring to be honest. So yeah, we, yeah, we, when Patrick and I were able to meet you yourself and Tessa and have all those events and create the opportunity for people. Yeah. Like we don't regret anything and it was, it was a good experience. So yeah, once, and especially when you're surrounded by all those people, it's,

that are dedicated as well to the same craft as you are, it even makes it even more motivating to stay in the game as well and kind of elevate your thinking and your approach in training. So yeah, and like once you're exposed to these new perspectives, different mythologies, right, everyone's going to trade something different, which is fine, but also can help refine your own process. So yeah, whether it's learning from someone else's mistakes,

for successes, the diversity of thought within a network is definitely a good tool for personal growth as an investor or a day trader.

Excuse the last interruption here. This is Tessa. We hope you're enjoying this episode so far. If you love the podcast, please give Chat with Traders the best review you can on whatever platform you're listening from. This will help us to keep the episodes coming. Also, if you haven't subscribed to our email list, please hop on to chatwithtraders.com and click on subscribe so we can keep you posted of information that may be of importance. Thank you. Now back to the chat with our guest.

So then did you experience times like live during the day, during the day, uh, you're considering to go long or short something and you, maybe you throw out an idea or someone throws an idea to you, like right there live. Have you found situations where, um, yeah.

you were able to improve or you learn things on the live, on the fly when you're sharing these ideas? Or is it mostly after the market is closed? I would say, Ian, because of course I've experienced it all, whether it's pre-market, live or post-market. I found the most important time was definitely pre-market and aftermarket because everyone has their own strategy.

Everyone creates their own buys. I feel like it just got a little too noisy live when you're trading. I think everyone should just concentrate on their own, focus on their plan and maybe come together before the market, going through some checklists, going through some ideas or just kind of talking it out. And then when we shut down, you trade, you manage because at the end of the day, you're not managing anyone else's account. It's your account. It's your money.

And then come together afterwards, have some accountability, talk about, you know, the post-market, what happened, how you looked at it. And someone had it like, you know, a different way of looking at it. It looked very interesting. Make a note by end of the day. I think live, I felt, yeah, like my biggest learning curve. And of course, right now it's a little different because I'm, I'm helping. I have a couple of students. I'm consulting with Patrick as well. So now, yeah, we found together with Patrick. So it's best to create that roadmap pre-market.

Let everyone manage on their own because it is their own capital and then come afterwards with some accountability and speak about it. Because you look at all of these professional desks, all these institutions, Citibank, JP Morgan, Goldman, they all come together afterwards.

and talk about their trading day, talk about their ideas, their strategies, because it's important. You can never be left in the dark, especially afterwards. That's important. Whether it's a winning day or it's a losing day or it's a break even, you always need to speak about it. So find a partner, find a group, find a community, even a family member. And I think it's highly important to speak out loud about it because you look at any other profession,

You're never in the dark. You're never quiet. Even if it's a two-man team, you're always providing with meetings, month end, quarter end. You always have a supervisor speaking about, okay, your work, your workload, whether it was good performance, bad performance. So yeah, you could call it either a performance meeting or some sort of accountability. I think it's highly important to have that. Yeah, great. Well, certainly we hope to reopen the Chat with Traders community live trading room again in the not too distant future.

So what would you say are areas that you struggle with most as trading? That's a good question, Ian, because we all struggle in certain areas, right? Whether it's, you know, with your strategy or could be even like after the trading day is done. And for me, definitely, I would say the biggest challenge as a risk manager is

would be trying to escape the market. That was, that's, that's trying to escape the market. That's always been my biggest, escape. - Escape, escape the market. What, yeah, what does that mean? - Always been my biggest, my biggest struggle for sure. So, cause you know, we always have our mobiles, the news, the chat rooms, they're always available 24/7. The charts always available 27. So always trying to remain unplugged or not plugged into the market. That was always my biggest issue, trying to unplug

and be focused on what's in front of me. That's always been, you know, because my wife always commented, of course, I'm on my phone too much looking at the markets, even though I'm done for the day. Because I try and look at it as work, right? Because once you're fit, even when you're finished your nine to five, you're not thinking about your work, you're done. So that's how I should be thinking about the markets. The thing is, because I'm so in love with the markets and truly I enjoy this profession so much, it can kind of, of course, at times seem a little too addicting, but that's definitely my biggest struggle.

to pull away to check prices see maybe what the oil market is doing or you know like you always because even though i don't trade the oil market gold market it's always interesting to see what those markets are doing right once like that new york volume goes away so yeah i just always read like the latest headlines um and just having that convenience of the mobile phone because of course back in the day we didn't have this right everything was either done on the computer or the newspaper but because everything's accessible

24 seven, it definitely is a big struggle of mine to come down sometimes to reality and try and get that balance. I'm not saying it happens all the time, but sometimes I catch myself being pulled right back into the markets, even though I'm not trading. So just, just being aware of more so what's in front of me and being, you know, like more intuitive with the family, you know, of course I'm not, I'm not saying like, I still, I enjoy the freedom. I'm not working as much as I did before my nine to five, but because it's, you know, a high stress profession, a profession,

and just being always feeling the need to stay into it at all times can be mentally exhausting. Um, and also possibly create some poor decision making as well. So, you know, what I've learned definitely in that area is just to create strict boundaries. Um, I've definitely been better at that now than I have before, especially last year. So just establish rules of when I can access the market and switch it off entirely. So, yeah, I just try to limit myself, um,

on like the news, news sources that I look into and try and avoid any sort of excess information that could lead into like overload. So that's definitely, yeah. Yeah. Well, I struggle with mine that I'm working on. Yeah. Well, I can certainly see the passion expressed through your face and hear it in your voice. And it's great that you've found, uh,

an industry, a hobby, a passion that you're really excited about and love to learn. So thank you very much for coming on chat with traders. How can our listeners get in touch with you? Yeah, of course. Yeah. So all my business information is on Twitter or X it's at Libra underscore trading. So I was, I was born as a Libra. So that was, that was the handle I of course stuck with, but yeah, you'll see me on there at Steve B and all my information and the company I work with, with options flow data and everything. So yeah, like,

If anyone wants to reach out and follow me, all my information's there. So yeah. Thanks again, Ian and Tessa. I'm glad to be here and maybe one day do this again. So yeah, thanks again. Appreciate it. Yeah, fantastic.

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