#160: Inside Network School 4 | Conversation with Alyssa Phelps
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Welcome to the Chewy Journal podcast, Alyssa. Can you give my listener a brief introduction about who you are and the topic we're going to cover today? Hi, Cami. Thanks so much for having me here. I'm really excited to talk to you today. So my name is Alyssa Phelps. It's lovely to meet you all. I am originally from Southern California, but lived internationally the last few years.

I used to work in international trade research and international tax, but outside of my professional career, I really enjoy making art. The initial process of that was for me starting off sewing, but then I moved on to also creating tufted art, cyanotypes, silversmithing, honestly a whole range of creative outlets. So me and Cami actually met here at

Network School, and it's been really cool getting to know her, and I'm really excited to be here talking to you today. I think the topic we're going to cover today is kind of a passion project for me, an interest, I think, of most women, but women's health period products, and then also kind of vintage clothing and secondhand materials. So excited to talk to you today. Lovely. The reason why we want to record this podcast, because we had a dinner table conversation about women's

sanitary pad problem. As I mentioned, in China, there's a huge social media discussion around, I think, more than 90% period products are not safe to women. And you can imagine China has a huge population, which means the damage is huge. So I'd like to

Ask you, because this is part of your passion project. So what inspired you to investigating the safety of the period products? Totally. Yeah, it's cool because we have a lot of random conversations like this. And yeah, I mean, there's so many women out there. And I think the education around this topic is kind of lacking. But my kind of the initial rabbit hole that I fell down was a couple of years ago, I was basically considering getting off of birth control.

And it's kind of a taboo thing in the States. But basically, when you're, you know, 15, 16, you get prescribed birth control because you have, you know, acne as a teenager and then you're put on it and you stay on it for, you know, 10 years or something like that for most women. And I basically was at this crossroads of, OK, I think I want to get off of my birth control just to kind of establish, like, what a baseline of my hormonal health was and

And so when I was kind of digging into this topic, like the results of being on long-term birth control was something I was looking into. And then I was also kind of just like relevantly reading, you know, published media about like

What that does to your body. And then also kind of around a similar time, there was basically this doctor. Her name is Dr. Shauna Swan. And it was in about like 2021 that she went on Joe Rogan and I heard her podcast. And she basically like researches chemical exposure on child development and reproductive health.

So that's kind of what started my interest and took me down the rabbit hole of reading more about how chemicals, and forever chemicals especially, react to the body, how they impact your reproductive health, and

It's a dark rabbit hole to fall down, but that's kind of what started my interest. So can you share some key findings through this dark rabbit hole? Because I know there's a lot, but we all try to cover as much as possible.

I would like to start off with the disclaimer. I am not a scientist. So all of you who are listening to this, please do your own research. I'm just a girl. I'm just a woman who uses period products and wears clothing. And so I find these topics interesting, but I recommend everybody does their own research. But one of the or we can kind of just start off with period products specifically. And there's

a litany of things that could be found in period products that are harmful for the body, but we'll go through kind of maybe the top big ones. So there's the per- and polyfluorolytic substances, so PFAS, way easier to say. These are basically the forever chemicals that people talk about, and they're

They're byproducts of certain attributes that you want to attribute to period products. So, for example, in menstrual products, you want them to be leak-resistant or moisture-wicking. And those properties are also why PFAS are added to clothing. So, you know, when you have sportswear, if you want to be, you know, sweat-resistant, that's the treatment of the fabric, or in this case, the menstrual products, to give it that attribute.

But they're known to cause hormonal disruption. They're linked to certain cancers and long term like accumulation is not a good thing. So that's one of the main top one of the main things PFAS. So those are the forever chemicals. And then in other period products, there's a couple of things that come up in the literature. There's dioxins for furans and chloride compounds.

Those are kind of part of the bleaching process that the cotton goes through to get that white look. And those are carcinogenic and also linked to hormone disruption. Again, this is like a really negative just spiral. So hang in, guys. It'll get better. And then there's also heavy metals, which come from just using natural materials that exist in the world. And then also through manufacturing processes, like lead, mercury, cadmium. So they're either contaminants that...

happen in raw material or they're brought through manufacturing processes. And again, bioaccumulation of heavy metals is not good. They're linked to reduced fertility and developmental problems as well as carcinogenic effects. So again, having a bunch of lead in your system is not great. And especially the fact that we're using period products through like the most sensitive, you know, skin in your body. It's like a direct exposure. So heavy chemicals are also or heavy

Heavy metals are also a main contributor to the lack of safety in feminine products. And then there's also pesticide residues. So a lot of the cotton and the crops that we use are treated with pesticides to help the cotton grow. So if you're not using organic cotton, I think it's more likely that it would have pesticides. But it's really hard to know for certain what's safe in your cotton. There's like this thing called the GOTS certification, which is like, I think the

highest standard for what you can get. So certain producers have that accreditation and it kind of lends credibility to them as producers. But yeah, so there's pesticides that are leached in cotton when they're treated. There's synthetic fragrances, which is again another additive that happens. I think these were way more common back in like the 90s and 2000s. I don't see them as much anymore, but it's basically like any chemical scent that's added to mask smell. And

I mean, there's a reason why we don't use, why we know fragrance is not good, like in all of our products. And a big part of it is because when producers and manufacturers add fragrance, they don't really disclose what the ingredients in the fragrance are. It just says fragrance, but you have no clue what that actually means or what it's made out of. So that's kind of like a big no-no. It causes like

irritants and also it's an exposure to phthalates which is hormone disrupting and not good for the reproductive system so overall having fragrance anywhere near your you know that area is not good and then the last one the nunch

is plastics and petrochemicals. So again, what your tampon or your pad comes wrapped in and the applicator, so you're inserting with and the absorbent layers within your pads, all of those things could be either made of some sort of plastic or petrochemical material

Component or exposure to it. Those are the main ones that are contributing to the unsafety or the lack of safety in period products. But like overall, the common thread is that like they all disrupt your hormones and potentially lead to like reproductive and reproductive.

reproductive health issues or negatively impact fertility. Why do you think there is a lack of a mandatory test? I feel like this industry has been developed in the probably 20 or 30 years. I'm not sure about this history of period products, but women in maybe 90s,

1920s use like clothes or cotton clothes. Yeah, yeah. But now we just for the convenience sake, we use these already put on the shelf products. But I don't know why there is no like mandatory test and how come we just find out like in recent years it is so harmful. Yeah, that's a great question. It's hard because I think there's a couple of reasons why.

But there's like that quote, never attribute malice to what can be attributed to incompetence. So, you know, maybe there's two ways you can look at it. There's like this logical side that is maybe there's incompetence. The last time that the U.S. specifically, this is where I've researched this, but the last time that they released guidance on like manufacturing period products was 2010. I mean, 14 years ago. And like PFAS, for example, really haven't been a huge topic of discussion since, you know,

you know, only a couple of years ago. Like microplastics, all of these things I feel like have come more into the purview of mainstream media in the last few years. So that's one reason. Maybe they just aren't keeping up with the times and the testing and the invention of technology. So that's like one logical reason. And I think

I think there's another component of that is lack of pressure from consumers because I think there's not a whole lot of education and it's hard to access information. So if consumers aren't educated and they're not advocating on their own behalf to the extent that pushes companies to do better or make specific actions to mitigate those risks, then that's another problem.

reason maybe for that. And then there's like the evil reasons. So like corporate greed, you know, companies aren't incentivized to make the safest products. They're incentivized to deliver shareholder value or, you know, cut costs as much as possible. And like any additional testing and whatever requirements would be needed would be costly. And therefore, companies aren't incentivized to make better choices for women. And then there's like also the

lack of prioritization of women's health. I know that in the last few years, there's been a lot of information around how women are so disproportionately used as test subjects in medical research. And it's because, you know, our hormonal fluctuations is like menstruation every month is like a complicated variable and therefore they don't want to deal with it. So we've been excluded from

you know, medical studies and are not excluded, but, you know, way disproportionately represented. So again, there's, there's some negative reasons why, um, and some more law, there's also logical reasons maybe for incompetence, but overall, uh,

you know, it's a tough situation to tackle. Yeah, I recently heard a podcast about the female doctor on Andrew Huberman's podcast, and they talk about how lack of studies for women specifically. So all the diet plan or sports workout plan are based on the man's health, but we are so different. So I feel like, okay,

That's why we need more female scientists and do more studies specific to women. What's your suggestion for women who can't

improve their education, like selecting the period products. So that's super, that podcast, I feel like I've either seen clips of it or maybe I've listened to it. There are definitely really cool women out there who are spreading the word and like at the forefront of industry. So again, listening to them is great, but the government controlling the way that

products are produced isn't necessarily like the best option if we look at government as a whole it's notoriously bad at implementing solutions and like my ideal world of like how this industry would be run it would be really cool to imagine a place where private markets kind of dictate how outcomes or how solutions are brought to the market so for example like

We could have like an industry leaderboard where companies who publish their testing of products are at the top and who do all the necessary sourcing components and strategies around mitigating any risk to consumers are ranked highly. And then there's offenders who are, you know, adding additives or don't publish any information about their products. They're ranked low. And so like that's like one, again, thought around it. But yeah.

as like a starting place for like the regulatory scheme, stepping back from like individual, but more like regulatory wise. I think there should be like mandatory requirements for labeling all of the components and then their origins. I think, you know, from the cotton where it's sourced all the way to like the, what's the applicator and packaging made of. And that's not currently a requirement. I think that would be a great starting place. And then if there was also like

RFK, for example, as the new appointee to the Department of Health. It'd be great if we could get a national study produced about specifically brands. Because one of the problems with the information that we have access to as consumers today is that it's kind of siloed. And there are studies that happen and occur. There's one that was produced in August of 2024. I think it's called tampons as a source of exposure to metalloids. That was a really kind of

It broke mainstream media in the sense that it was really widely reported on by press and has gotten a lot of attention. I think the...

The government as a whole is like mandating more studies around this, which is great. But I think we need to have like a source of truth for like what is good and bad. Because even if there's studies that are performed, they don't explicitly call out what brands are being tested. They'll say, we went to the grocery store and took 14 samples and these are the results. But they don't list like Tampax or, you know, all the brands.

all of the negative perpetrators. So it's really, it's kind of like we need a source of truth, but having it done in a siloed space or behind kind of walls of testing is not a great solution for consumers to get the right information and make educated decisions. In terms of how you selecting the pure rare products, I know there are some like Moon Cup available.

Apparently, a lot of online influencers, they said, "Okay, this is very sustainable and maybe it's good for your health." But I found it super hard to use. At the moment, I have no idea how to pick up my sanitary pad or tampon anymore after I become so aware of that, "Oh, wow, this could damage my health." So I'm very confused. Yeah, it's really tricky.

I think women and consumers are just kind of left in the dark without really much direction or who they can trust because there's so much like branding for companies like this. The period products, like whether it's tampons, pads, cups, diva cups, they have like a whole range of product types. You know, the underwears, all these. There's so many products out there. It's like you just stop because you're overwhelmed. Yeah.

I have no clue who to trust. I'm at the grocery store and typically what women do is you go down the aisle and you look for, okay, this says organic cotton or you look for signs in the branding and the words that are on it that it might be a good option. But in reality, we have no clue because there's no requirement to test or document the safety of the products. So one of the things that I've

done in the process of also looking into this as a topic is there's this consumer advocacy group called Momovation. I think it's a group of mothers is my guess, but they published to, they basically commissioned menstrual product testing in 2022. So they did a

pads. They tested like 46 different brands of sanitary pads, liners, and things of that nature. And then they also did one with tampons where they tested 23 different types of tampons. So they basically presented the best and worst based on the testing of those products on their website. If you're really looking for specifics, you can go to Momovation and see where those studies link to and the best to buy. We can link that in the show notes here, which we will do. Another great

A cool brand that I would like to give a shout out to is kind of like the OGs in the organic tampon industry. They're called Nature Care. I think they've been around since like the 80s, but I think they were like one of the very first to do organic tampons, but they have a pretty good reputation in the industry basically. And I believe they tested well on the momovation ranking as well. Yeah, I mean, as consumers, it's like,

Each tampon and pad that's produced is just kind of a black box of like, I have no clue what to trust. So you can kind of try and cut out the noise and look for like a brand or like people that you think you can trust. But even then, it's hard to really have faith in what we're getting as consumers. Yeah, before I used myself as a guinea pig, but the harm is not that visible. I mean, I

After I use, I won't feel pain, but who knows, in 10 years, I probably won't have a baby. So that's the thing. I'm like, how can I test it? I think the two websites you recommend would be helpful. Yeah, that's like one of the other really big challenges with this industry. It's not a product that gives you direct reaction immediately. So we're just kind of left using...

I'm 100%. And there's women out there who will use the same tampon or pad for like 20, 30 years. You know, I wonder if this is really just kind of a new phenomenon. And with the way that goods are produced more and how readily available plastics are for production and transport and packaging, if it's not necessarily an issue that maybe our parents' generation dealt with as much. But I mean...

It's really scary to think of the impact that it's causing to women's fertility at a generational level for young women. I know the issues with women being able to actually become pregnant is super widespread an issue. Fertility rates are down, I think, pretty much globally. Dr. Shanna Swan has published a lot on this of what are the reasons and

I mean, it's both on the women's side. Period products and the clothes we wear are probably one small component of it. There's probably still a lot with diet, lifestyle factors, you know, all of the stuff we use in the shower. So many different elements. It's like you can't just narrow it down to one thing to do to stay safe. But I mean, as consumers, we have to try and make the best decisions as we can. Yeah.

As much as I would love to open a manufacturing plant in my backyard and make my own tampons and pots. I do think, though, there is a solution of, like, kind of going back to the basics where you could do cloth stuff and reuse it. I know there's people who do that with their kids and diapers, which is something that I would definitely consider when I have kids in the future. But, yeah, I mean...

Good luck. Yeah, I also want to mention the underwear industry, which is also so close to our skin and sensitive part of the body. Not just women, also men. I think we had two speakers come to the network school and they mentioned that how harmful for the underwear for male as well. Because I missed that workshop. So what's the biggest takeaway from you?

Totally. So when we think of fabric and the clothing we wear, especially with regard to our underwear and our bras, we look for attributes and material that help us in our day-to-day. So with underwear, you need stretch because you're taking it on and off. You need it to be tight. So one of the reasons why underwear is often composed with synthetic fabric is because they stretch.

The polyester, you know, petroleum-derived fabrics have stretch. So you can get stretch with natural fibers like certain cuts of cotton and certain different types of fibers like bamboo, but you don't get the sweat wicking or moisture. The other things that people like about having breathable or the other components that come from having a very stretchy underwear. So most of the guys I know like kind of like

the stretchy ones. They don't like the whitey tight. No, they hate those. They hate the whitey tighties. Even though cotton is like tried and true, if you can get it, it's

It's kind of a, when you wear synthetics, I think if my recollection is correct, the way that they talk about it is when synthetics sit against your skin and you're basically sweating and there's heat and moisture and it basically like traps the body. So like whether it's men's testicles or like, you know, women's breasts, that's like a huge issue when you're just putting synthetic derived fabric just straight

straight up against your reproductive organs all day. I know there was a study in the last year or two where they looked at a woman's breast cancer. And I want to say it's the way that they did the study was basically like biopsying the flesh. Sorry, that's not the right word. They did biopsies of the tumors or other breast tissue that had, you know, cancerous cells. And I think when they tested it,

the results were there was phthalates in the breast tissue that was cancerous. And that's probably a downstream effect of using different types of soaps on our bodies that have fragrance. I mean, there's been studies in the last, you know, decade, two decades, talking about how endocrine-disrupting chemicals in our, you know, daily use products, how, um...

phthalates can accumulate in breast tissue and influence cancer cell proliferation. So, I mean, using products on your skin, wearing products constantly with friction and moisture, it's not a good situation. I mean, it's the crazy thing, though, is because this is still kind of newer science, a lot of times the Internet will just say there's research in it, but it's not conclusive. Right.

But I think as a species, it's kind of clear that we started off using only stuff that came from the land, you know, cotton. And I mean, the old days where they used to just use leather. I mean, Native Americans were like wearing leather.

hides the way that they rode their horses. They would create leather skin pants. I mean, all of that stuff is, it's kind of like a safety of going back to the norm that our ancestors used. But the other thing is it's really hard to cut out all synthetics from our fabric because, I mean, so much of what's produced nowadays is using some of those attributes we like from the tightness or the stretch or

So like when you go to Lululemon, I mean, it's probably the vast majority of it is not a natural fiber. It's like something that's been, you know, heavily processed and is not necessarily great for our health. I mean, I think Lululemon specifically had a lawsuit against them for having PFAS in their leggings. But I mean, there's been so many different cases of there's thanks THINX where they had the period underwear and

And they were sued for PFAS in their period underwears. I mean, there's tons of cases of basically like mainstream brands using, selling products or clothing to consumers and having recalls associated with them. Yeah, sounds scary, but it's good to know. We need to know. And let's switch the gear to the secondhand clothes industry. Before, I always have this stereotype like secondhand.

like secondhand is not hedging enough and I don't want to touch them even. But since I moved to Europe and I learned more about why we need secondhand clothes, but I also want to know from you, why do you think secondhand industry is necessary? Totally, totally. It's cool because I remember when I was in maybe fifth or sixth grade, my mom wanted to take me to Goodwill to find a Halloween costume or something silly.

And I remember being mortified. I was like, I have to step foot in this Goodwill, which is like the main secondhand store in the U.S. It's a big chain. For those who don't know, it's the number one secondhand retail store in the U.S. But I was like mortified. I remember my mom walking me in and I was like, I hope my friends don't see me in here. I was so embarrassed. But it's really cool to see the arc of that change.

stereotype kind of dissipate in society. I think there was this kind of narrative in society that brands were cool. I mean, everybody was wearing like the Gucci, you know, like all these old brands used to be what was considered cool. You know, even for like a sixth grade level, I wanted Converse. I needed to have Converse brand. Yeah.

And there's this idea that like unless you were part you were wearing that brand you weren't cool. And I think once you kind of break out of the maybe even just mindset that to fit in is what the goal is. I think when you find your own creative style and what makes you you and how you like to dress you escape that kind of closed box of how do I fit in.

And I think today what I see in fashion and style is most people want to be unique. I mean, New York is widely considered one of the most fashionable places in the world. And when you walk in the streets of New York, people are wearing outrageous outfits. And the ultimate goal to me for them beyond just feeling fashionable is to be unique and to make an expression with the clothing that you wear.

And so I think secondhand clothing is super cool because not only are you achieving that ultimate goal of being unique because it's widely less available, the thing that you're wearing, not only is it cool because you can have your own personal style and, you know, you're sourcing clothing that was made in...

older days when production was kind of better run. I think like before the 90s clothing was just way better constructed. I mean nowadays you get crap from Shein and you can't wear it more than once and it's already falling off the seams. It's horrible production. And like

I mean, beyond just really not liking fashion as an industry because it's, one, super lame, two, it's so bad for the environment. I mean, there's like 92 million tons of textile waste a year in the world, and I think 60% of it is made out of synthetic fiber. So, I mean, we're really harming the environment, harming ourselves.

And just overall, we could benefit from using clothes that are already produced because there's a huge, huge surplus of clothing already in the world. So to summarize, one, it makes you unique. It's cool. Two, you're getting a better product and it's cheaper. When you go to a secondhand store, typically you're getting something that's cheaper unless you're going to a very highly curated place, which is cool in its own way. If you're looking for something very specific and unique, you can go to like a curated place.

And then two, you're also helping the planet by not contributing to waste and environmental damage. Those are the main reasons why I personally like the secondhand industry and why I'm like a big advocate of using secondhand clothing as a means of finding your personal fashion. So for people who have the concern about the health issue, hygiene issue, what's your advice? It's cool because...

Some people feel it's fun to watch the spectrum of people and how they respond to secondhand clothing because my sister's a complete germaphobe. And she likes secondhand clothing, but she's like a germaphobe. Like she'll get something and she will barely touch it with her hand and she'll cut it in the bag and then like hide it in the back of her car and then like go home and immediately wash it in hot water and stuff. And I mean...

Then there's the other people who are, like, going to the thrift store, putting on the clothes, and then wearing them out, going out at night. They're, like, they don't give a fuck. It's also so cool. It's kind of funny. But anyways, my personal approach to things is as long as you're using hot water and detergent to wash it or if you're going and getting something dry cleaned, it's going to be completely fine. I mean, bacteria can't live past a certain temperature. I mean, clothing itself is, like, low risk in terms of, like, any bacteria.

serious risk that could come from, you know, wearing something. Of course, don't go to the thrift store and buy some dirty ass underwear and wear them out of the thrift store, guys. I mean, come on. Let's be logical about our approach to using secondhand clothing. But I mean, as long as you wash your clothes, guys, you're going to be totally fine. I think the turning point for me was I was invited to a party. It's like all the fashion industry people. So I need to find a very like a branded dress.

but back then I don't have like thousands of budgets to do it. So I found one in a secondhand shop in Lisbon, this Valentino dress, but I only spent like 50 bucks on it because some part is broken. So I think, oh, I can fix it. So I need to hand made. And I feel it's so fulfilled, make my own dress.

I know you made a lot of your own bags and also the crafts. Yeah, I find that, oh, okay, I can get some secondhand, like very stylish one and make my own. That's a turning point for me. So since then, I started to go to secondhand shops a lot. So that's nice with a cheaper price and I can also...

unleash my creativity on it. 100%. I'm a deal girl. I mean, through and through, my mom raised a cheap chick because, I mean, half of the fun of going to secondhand stores is like the thrill of the hunt. Like, what can I find? And, you know, when you meet people also who like secondhand shopping, you can kind of share your finds. You're like, oh my God, look what I got. It's kind of like a shared treasure hunt in the sense. And I mean,

Now that I'm probably four years into... Probably, like, six years into using secondhand as my predominant source of clothing, but then also four years into sewing my own clothing, I mean, I just have a way better curated selection of clothing, and I naturally gravitate towards secondhand clothing in my closet way more than anything new. I mean, I...

I love personally like an old denim because denim the way that it's produced now is just not the same quality like when I go to a Levi's store and I look at the actual material the seams on it the construction of the garment it's like absolute crap like it's so bad the fabric's like not thick there's like it's really quick to get holes things like that are just like so

so obvious to me now that I'm a few years into the process of buying secondhand but it's really cool to also open up people's minds to the opportunity because there's people either who are you know newer to the newer to the experience or guys who don't necessarily care about shopping they really could care less whether it's they just don't want to think about it which is also funny.

But I mean, it's so cool. I also love finding fabric secondhand and making my own clothing. So, you know, how buying secondhand is cool to be unique, but like the process of finding a really cool fabric that, you know, does not exist anymore. And then making something specifically for you that's unique is also a really cool feeling. It's one of one. And the other really great thing about

making your own garments is that you can construct it exactly how you want it. You can, you know, add cool features, it's just like it opens up a whole new world that you really have no clue exists when you're just shopping at, you know, big, big retail chains like Zara and H&M.

Yeah, I mean, it's also really interesting when you travel where you go, the more pervasive secondhand vintages. Because when you go to Japan, it's all just Americana. It's crazy. I went to Japan and I was like, oh my gosh, I'm going to get all this really cool stuff. And then I went and it was almost more expensive for me to buy secondhand American clothes in Japan than it was to just go to a random small town thrift store in rural Utah. Yeah.

I was like, oh my gosh, this is crazy. Where you go kind of does indicate what type of secondhand you'll get. I know Europe's got a lot of really cool vintage leather. Japan, again, has all the Americana. I don't know if you have any experiences finding like really cool secondhand anywhere you've traveled either.

Yeah, in Italy, there's a lot of jewelry and I was like mind blowing and handbags. But I already like stopped buying handbags now. I just because I only need to carry up my phone now. But if this was me like 10 years ago, I probably got a lot of secondhand handbags.

This is a leather and the texture. Yeah. And the design is so different. I feel like maybe 20 or 30 years ago is like a peak of the fashion industry when all those unique design just out. So Italy, definitely. 100%. Italian leather goods are really unmatched. 100% agree. Another thing that you brought up that just made me think of it is I have this kind of fear and thought

thought that, or I guess you'd call it like a hypothesis that the golden age of textile production is behind us.

And when I go and I buy secondhand, whether I'm going to a thrift store or going to an estate sale, for those who don't know what an estate sale is, it's basically in the U.S., whether somebody passes away or is downsizing their home, they can basically have an estate sale company come and do basically a garage sale out of your house. And so you can get really, really awesome deals. And so I would just kind of go on directories and I was like,

estate sale.net or something like that and I would just show up and get in line and I'd go walk in and that's where I would find really cool quilts and really cool vintage that is not necessarily always in the thrift stores but I almost have this worry and fear that there will no longer be really good vintage available because I mean I go to a lot of thrift stores and especially since I've been here in Asia all of the Vietnamese thrift stores I went to a lot of them and um

Malaysia as well. It's like she in like I'm in I'm in a secondhand thrift store and it's all just synthetic fibers like I'll go down the line and start feeling it. It's just crap. So I kind of do think that in maybe 10 20 years it's going to be even harder to find really good vintage because the production no longer exists. We're going to be farther away from the time in history when those were made and available. So

I almost have like this little like time clock that I'm like have ticking where I want to accumulate things, which is not necessarily a great habit because of course we don't want to have, you know, just...

too much crap. Like that's never a good, it's not good to have too many things that you really don't use. But I almost have this like fear that one day I won't be able to find really cool stuff. But yeah, that's just my hypothesis. Yeah, fair enough. What's the motivation? Do you like, what do you think of people's motivation about the buying shen? Because I, yeah, as I mentioned before, I got a friend who is like buying clothes every week on shen because it's so cheap. But apart from that, I don't know, like,

I mean, why you love to buy that? It's so addictive, I find out. I don't know if it's social media or the way they promote their products. I think there's part of it that's wanting to be in style. And Shein is based in all those, again, not just Shein, a lot of these fast fashion companies, there's so many of them. We just like to pick on Shein themselves because they also steal from creators and we hate that. They suck. But

There's this desire as a human to want to be cool, to be in style, to be fashionable. And styles are very, what's in fashion or what's a trend is very seasonal and cyclical. So people will have this idea that you need to buy something new to be in season or to be cool or to be fitting into this narrative of what is popular. And I mean, that's not what fashion is about. Fashion is about feeling good in the clothing you wear.

And I think people are unfortunately just...

heavily influenced by what we see online and this deep desire to want to fit in. And I think brands like Shein play to that narrative. And I mean, of course they do. Like their motive is to sell more shit, but it's really difficult. I mean, I almost like wish I could just take those people who are just buying Shein all the time and just pull them out of it. Like I just want to save them and tell them that there's cooler stuff. There's stuff that's better for your body. I mean, Shein had...

I think they did some there's some news articles that came out around like their shoes. They had like these jelly like platform shoes and they're just like completely laden with toxic chemicals like they're not safe for your body. They don't pass European standards for what's safe. I mean, not only are you buying cheap shit that's going to ruin not be fashionable in two months. It's also just bad for you in general. So

I mean, again, I think Shein is probably just playing to the desires of fitting in really well. And it's cheap. Like, people want to be cool, but they want it at a good price. And instead of saving and only buying a few garments a year, it's like, let me get the crap so I can fit in. But there's also, I mean, back in the 70s, we used to have maybe, like,

25, 30 pieces of clothing in our entire closet. So there's this overconsumption mindset that's come from wanting social media, especially, I think. This like vision of what's hot. I see this girl and she's wearing these new outfits and they're so cool. And it's, again, playing to this mentality of wanting to fit in or look cool or show off. But I mean, it's just encouraging this level of overconsumption that's not healthy for consumers.

for consumers. Yeah, I totally agree. Yeah, when I look at my Instagram feed, I see these dresses have been weird for 10 years, because you can see. Because before, when I was in my early 20s, I would like, oh no, I can't let that happen, because it's not cool. Like, how come you're not fashionable? You wear the clothes for like 10 years. But now I totally...

shift my perspective. I mean, yeah, that's me. Yeah. I love the material. I love the style. It doesn't matter. As long as the dress is still wearable, why not wear it for more than 10 years? Yeah. I do feel like maybe young girls need to go through these phases to find who they really are and not just to fit in and follow the trends. You're so spot on. I really do think it's almost like this coming of age thing. And I think some girls are more

out of the matrix almost in a sense. Like I have a little cousin who's

you know, 16 or 17 now. And she was all about the thrifting and junior high. So maybe the age is just increasingly getting younger and people are becoming more aware. But at least from my perspective of growing up as a teenage girl, it was a rite of passage to think you needed to fit in and to want to be cool. I think people are just becoming more open-minded and hopefully it's something that we'll be able to change as women. And talking about it is like the first step to like getting rid of this sort of negative mindset

behavior associated with it. So the next year is the year of snake in Chinese culture. And I remember you made a very cool vase, the snake vase. Can you walk me through the journey, how you created it? And I'll put the link in the show notes so people can see how good they are. You're too kind. Yeah. So there's a song too that inspired me. So there's a song called

Snakes in Waterfalls by, I think his name is Nick Shoulders. It's a country song and it's really cool, but I was listening to it a lot at the time when I was going to make this cool art piece. And so I really just got inspired by this like

vector image of just a snake. And so the process that Cami's referring to is I took a 2D tufted piece. So tufting is basically the process of taking fiber, weaving it into a backing. In this case, I used just a cloth backing. And then typically you stop at that point. It's just a 2D object where it's either going on the wall or going on the ground. But I took four sides and then some little

parts on the top and glued them all to a cardboard, you know, vase. And therefore you get this really cool fuzzy tufted vase. And it just is this really cool texture. It's nice and big. It's really just a cool art piece. And I was actually inspired by this artist. Her name's

She's Vietnamese, but she lives in, I think, Brussels. She's a fiber artist, and she's like the OG who pioneered this tufted vase. I mean, I haven't seen very many people do it, but I was really inspired and wanted to make my own. So, I mean, it was a really crazy process because it took me a full week of...

You put all this stuff onto the frame. You got to glue it. You got to cut them out. You got to carve all of the snakes out and get really cool texture and definition around the fiber. And you have to glue it all onto this thing. And then you got to make sure it looks good and take pictures. It was a really, really long, tiring process, but I'm really grateful.

glad I did it and it makes me want to make more of them in the future. To wrap up, is there anything else you would like to add on and how people can find you to follow your journey?

Gosh, this is so open-ended. You know, I have a lot of thoughts around sustainability, you know, style, what makes good style, what makes bad style. And I think, you know, having been a couple years into my sewing and more artistic creative outlets, I feel like I have a really a wealth of knowledge that I would like people to know. So I'm going to start, you know, putting some content out around, you know,

tips for how you can actually find well-constructed garments, you know, what to look for, how you can tell whether something's made with quality or, you know, tips for thrifting and like what you want to look for. So I'm going to send you my link to my webpage and hopefully some people will see it and hopefully it'll be useful for the people out there. But yeah, I mean,

If you are somebody who is stuck trying to figure out what your style is, my recommendation is go to Pinterest, start looking for things that inspire you, create a little mood board. And when you want to take the step to go and do more secondhand shopping, you'd be really surprised at what you can find. So put together something as an inspiration.

and then go to the store and start actually looking for things that are cool and inspiring to you. And you can kind of craft your own image around those types of things. But I think personal style is a multi-year journey and everybody has their own timeline to figure that out. And you constantly evolve too, which is a great thing, but it's a really fun process. And I hope everybody out there is inspired to kind of take that step. But yeah.

It's been so much fun talking to you today and getting to know you in general, but I just want to say thanks for having me on and I look forward to hopefully seeing you in the future.