Larry Wilmore | Club Random with Bill Maher
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LinkedIn, the place to be, to be. My book is out now. It's called What This Comedian Said Will Shock You, and it's available now anywhere you get your books. Part of my career was fighting the conception that blacks couldn't be as good writers as whites. That's one of the reasons why I wanted to create TV shows. Right. He could say the most offensive things and get away with it, you know. I believe you should be able to hit a child in the stomach or the throat. It's not random.

There he is. I heard a roomie you were going to be here. How you doing, man? Good to see you. Right, exactly. Yeah, well, I'm in this trial right now. This guy named Trump, I'm in the jury right now. So I was able to get away. You look hale. I'm doing good, man. How you doing? You know, 60s. Yeah. I'm not talking about the decade. I'm talking about us. You know, I would feel like.

I think, you know, if you read the obituaries, people around our age are dying. Falling off, man. They're falling off. When somebody says, how you doing? Exactly. You know, I mean, compared to, I mean, there's a lot of people.

When you, Bill Walton. Yeah, that's crazy. Just died yesterday, right? I know. 71, I'm 68. You start seeing those ages now. Well, I mean, I feel fine, but, you know. He was 72.

He's 72. 71. Oh, 71? Yeah, well, whatever it was, it's close. Right, it's close. Let's just say one more presidential election away when it comes to your life. But, you know, then people live to, you know, Mel Brooks is 112 and still funny. That's why I always felt, like, sad. I mean, this is going to sound weird, but I always felt sad for, like, Prince Charles, you know, or King Charles, because it's like,

His mother, first of all, lived forever, right? Right. And that's the only thing he's waiting on in his life. Right. I mean, her father died in his 50s or something. He had lung cancer or something like that. He's thinking, if I look at the family tree, I don't have much longer. And then he gets cancer. So you think he'd get a little bit of sympathy. But then Kate gets cancer. She's like, I can't believe it. I know. I know.

What's your genetics like? Do your parents live pretty good? It's pretty good. My mom's father, he lived until his 90s. He's like that old school southern kind of black man from Arkansas. My father's side is more problematic. His dad died when he was 39. So he died of a brain hemorrhage though. So my dad, it's kind of like that Mickey Mantle thing, but he didn't have the destructive thing. Mickey Mantle's father died.

you know, die when he was young or something. So Mickey-- Hodgkin's disease. Yeah, and one of the reasons-- Mickey always thought he was going to die young. Always thought he was going to die. And then he drank a lot and made himself. Yes, exactly. He actually lived longer than he should have. He did. He probably would have lived to 100. He got like a liver transplant. He really fucked himself. He really did. He brought that upon himself. You wonder-- I mean, that's the mystery of life. Like-- Yeah.

Who could be, yes, he probably had a rough childhood in Oklahoma, but once he got out of Oklahoma, how could it be better in the 1950s and 60s than to be the blonde, good-looking farm kid from Oklahoma who comes to the big city, is the star, and like, I'm sure he's going to be the star of the big city.

I'm sure back then when chicks didn't put out... Oh, it was crazy. Oh, they did. Oh, not as much. Yeah. In the 50s, no. But for somebody like Mickey Mantle? That's what I'm saying. Right. I think they made exceptions. Oh, 1,000%. I'm just saying in less percentages. But yes, probably any one of them could have been persuaded by the right person because that is the thing about women that I think is under-talked about. Like...

They do have-- they're generally, of course, much more circumspect about giving up sexuality than we are. We have no scruples. OK. They have much more. It's just their nature. It's biology. You want to protect-- you know, they're being invaded. You want to make sure the person invading you is a little-- you know, of course.

We don't give a shit where we invade, right? Because we'd withdraw. But I feel like even back when it was much more dangerous to be a woman, they still-- like there are certain guys

which they can't help themselves. No. Guys had a good run. They had a really, like people talk about me too. Yeah. I look at it like this. You motherfuckers had a good run, or we motherfuckers, we had a really good run in terms of being able to do whatever the fuck they wanted. Don't lump me in there. No.

Or you. Well, not me. No, I'm just saying. It wasn't my lifestyle. Every guy is certain. After the Me Too era, which, of course, I think was a great development and long overdue. But every guy sort of is looked at as. Thanks for the drink, man. What's that? Thanks for this. Oh, yeah. Do you have what you want? Oh, yeah. This is perfect.

But every guy is sort of looked on as like, well, you probably did something. Right, exactly. And, you know, I did things I wasn't proud of, but they were CAD things. They weren't Me Too kind of things. Exactly. Okay, you know, I mean... Like in bars. Here's the thing. People aren't going to like this, but when we were coming from bars, people...

felt up other people as a thing. No, I'm serious, Bill. This sounds horrible. But I'm not wrong. I'm not wrong. You are not wrong. People did that. In fact, people would brag about it, you know? And in fact, they used to have it in movies. Hey, man, did you get any titties? Did you feel that? Or whatever. It was a thing for a guy to cop a feel. That was the term, right? Cop a feel. Yeah. I mean, being a woman then. I'm not saying that's the right thing.

No, we're not at all. But being a woman then was like being a stripper now, like in the strip club. Right, exactly. I just think they can touch you. And in the strip club, you know, I mean, I personally think that that is what ruined strip clubs. And I think once they went from something you looked at but couldn't touch, it was a, you know, stripping is an ancient art form that goes back 3,000 years. There's even a fancy word for it, ecticeus.

as a stripper. Ektaios? Yes, Ektaios. That sounds like one of those words from a sketch like the Marx Brothers. I promise it to you. Well, when Ektaios, then I know it's going to be good. If I see it. Right, or I'm missing Andy. This must be my lucky day. Ektaios, yes. It's Greek, I think.

- It sounds Greek. Well, it's kind of come full circle now. Now, like sometimes you look at the movies of those burlesque clubs, you know, where they'd have the tassels on the,

On the breast, going around like that. And sometimes you see women in those audiences and that type of thing. Because like you said, you know, it was a show. But now strip clubs, men and women go together again. Because a lot of, it's more corporate now too, where it's all about the dollar bills. It has evolved. It's more like an after hours club. Exactly. It's kind of changed.

The one in Miami, 11, kind of combined. I think they were at the forefront of that, of kind of combining the strip club with the nightclub. Also, rappers break their records there. Exactly. And then clubs like 11, I think 50 Cent played there last New Year's Eve. Atlanta has a lot of clubs now. He may have been late for the New Year's Eve show, which I thought was very funny. It's like, the one thing. Hilarious. Right.

Excuse me, 50, if you didn't, but I think I read that. Maybe it was somebody. It's the one time you don't want to be late. Well, come on. What a miss. Where is everybody? I just thought that was. That's hilarious. It is. If it didn't happen, it should happen in a script. That's very funny. Look, I'm writing your whole next show for you. I love that. Thank you. You're giving your character names, your plot points, your jokes.

I'm so glad you came by. Yeah, I'm going to see you next week. We're doing the book event. Congrats on your book being number one. Hit number one today. How awesome is that? Thank you. Do I have it here? Damn. Oh, I guess we have a commercial. I want it always by me. But that's great, man. Yeah, you know what? It's grueling selling a book. I really got a great respect for...

I mean, I just got back from New York and did eight shows in two days. Yeah. And you sign 1,000 books. And you're kind of given the same type of thing all the time. Well, I try-- variations. Yeah, certainly if they're asking you directly about the book, that is true. Yeah, it's grueling. It's absolutely grueling. And I have really a new respect for the people who make their living doing this. Because this is not really-- this isn't something I didn't have to do or need the money to do.

Lots of people write books. That's their living. Exactly. So they got to sell it. Yeah. Me, it was just, you know. And many of them aren't celebrities, too. No, I'm saying. They're pounding the pavement out there selling those books. Pounding. Yeah. Michael Moore told me for one of his books, he did a 60-city tour. 60-city. Yeah, that's a lot.

That's a lot. I went to New York for two days. I was wrung out. Yeah. I did a book tour. I wrote one in 2009, I think it was. And we were at the Book Festival in Miami, and I was there with John Hodgman, and there was a guy I was supposed to interview. And we were just riffing backstage. We're like, we don't really need you. And we just interviewed each other on stage. It was so hilarious. And we didn't even talk about our books. But thank you for doing this for me. Of course. I really appreciate it. It's my pleasure. They sent me a book.

list of like 20 people, and I circled about three of them, but you were one of them. I appreciate that. Can I embarrass you for a quick second? Please do. I will because I have to give people their props. You know, when my show went away, you emailed me. I don't forget stuff like this. You didn't have to do it. You did it directly. You didn't do it through people.

You said, hey, man, you know. Yeah, it was good. You did good, you know, if you ever want to come to my show. I mean, you were just nice. And I don't forget shit like that. Thank you. Well, I meant it. I don't do it unless I mean it. I am not the slap on the back for nothing kind of guy. So when you do get a compliment for something, it means something. You know, I mean, yeah.

I certainly don't have a reputation as being cuddly, even though everybody who actually knows me would say I pretty much am. But I thought you did a better show than-- I mean, god, how many shows have been in that time slot?

Then 90% of them. I appreciate that. You know, and... I still hear... It's partly because a lot of the other ones are really shitty. Well, we tackle race head on. And we tackle race head on, like when nobody was doing that. And I still hear from people at least once or twice a week, say, Larry, we missed your show. What they really miss is nobody's talking about those issues and doing it with comedy. You know, like, Bill, we have to do a show...

And I'm all for that as long as we hear both sides. Exactly. Right. Exactly. Because there is a large black silent majority in my view. Yeah. They are not as liberal as the white. I agree. Okay. Yeah. And I feel like I certainly personally know people, black men who don't,

They're not with AOC. It's every black family bill. That's what it's called. This fight going on, you mean? It's 1,000% true, because especially multi-generational families. Many, especially older blacks-- I'm old enough to know-- we never said liberal or conservative. We've never said those things. Blacks were mainly in the Democratic Party when I was a kid, but they used to be in the Republican Party.

Of course. You know, for different reasons, of course. But it was really about the Civil Rights Act and the Voting Rights Act in the 60s that put most of the Democrats, most of the blacks in the Democratic Party. But being an activist for whatever they stand for is different than having an allegiance to a party for a reason. Well, in this book, What This Comedian Said Will Shock You, which just went to number one, there is one of the editorials I read

Worked in there. I reworked them all, but it's the basic idea was a political party is like your lawyer. Right. They both use the word representative. You have a representative in court and you have a representative in Congress. And it kind of means the same thing. And that's what people make a decision on. They're not sentimental about it. When the Republican Party was the party of emancipation. Right.

You're my lawyer. Right, exactly. For good reason. Yeah. And when it switched, because it was the Democrats who undid Reconstruction and, you know, Andrew Johnson was a Democrat. He was a motherfucker. Right. Lincoln was the Republican. Yeah. Then it switched.

And Kennedy sent troops into the South. And Hubert Humphrey introduced the first Civil Rights Act. It was the Dixie Democrats who walked out of the convention in 1948 just because Hubert Humphrey suggested a plank, a civil rights plank. Right.

And he said famously, segregation today, segregation tomorrow, segregation forever. That was George Wallace in 1963. And when Kennedy sent troops into the South so they could go to school and so forth, OK, now you're my lawyer. Exactly. Now you represent me. I have a healthy outlook on this. I just feel all white people is problematic.

So it doesn't matter what party you're in. There's just going to be an issue. And I know that's a joke. And you can make every joke in the world on me. I just want to point out that we do live in an era now where lots of stuff can't happen in reverse. Yes. Like, I can't make that joke about you.

Right. Well, that's the top dog. And I don't want to. But I couldn't say what you said in reverse with black. Sure. Absolutely. And there's lots of examples I could give of that. And that's okay. I ain't mad at that. You could. You just can't say it in public. I believe everything is in public now. What in the fucking world is not in public? That's true. But here's the thing. That's just the top dog, underdog dynamic is what I call it. You know, like top dog.

Underdog gets to make fun of Top Dog, but Top Dog can't make fun of Underdog. Yeah, that's true. I tell you, I ain't mad at it. I mean, it goes beyond that. I mean, sometimes it's-- I mean, you can find a lot of TikToks of young-- A lot of TikToks. --black women, usually women, saying,

I just can't deal with white people. And again, some of that's you know what that is, though. It's just if can you imagine if a white person said that in reverse? And it's not a good thing. Just don't put it. They don't put it online. But some of them do say that.

But the fact that you make a TikTok out of it says a lot. You have permission. You have cultural permission to do it. Cultural permission. What a beautiful phrase. But that is not, to be serious, it's not a healthy attitude.

And an unnecessary attitude. I want to know the specifics of how Whitey fucked up your day. She feels the weight of the diaspora is there in that state. You're just going to Starbucks for fuck's sake. I think...

It's just not healthy. Yeah, I think there's a lot of oppression by proxy with a lot of young people. Another beautiful phrase. And the by proxy is the generations who actually went through a lot of the heavy lifting of oppression. Exactly.

And segregation. And look, you can have generational trauma and those types of things. It expresses itself in different ways, especially like the health of individuals and stuff like that because certain traits are passed down, as well as habits. Because sometimes culturally, you can stop. You can be the intervention on bad legacies and that types of things.

of course, education and that type of thing. But I think a lot, and I know this is old man yelling at the clouds type of thing, you know, for me, but...

A lot of it, I believe, is that, is suffering by extension. Like a lot of sometimes protests, like when I see protests by proxy, I feel that way, as opposed to protests when you have skin in the game. Right. Where it's like, you don't have skin in the game, so you can say whatever the fuck you want. If you have skin in the game, you're going to act a little differently when it comes to this. Things will be in perspective, Bill.

That's why it was dumb for them to compare the Vietnam protests in the 60s. Those kids did have skin in the game. That's correct. They did not want to get drafted and go to Vietnam. That was a lot different. That's exactly right. You know what? Part of me, too, I feel the civil rights movement, I

I'm upset that the civil rights movement and the extension of it became a political football. That really hurts me because to me, it was never a political movement, nor should it have ever been. It was more like a human movement. How could it not become political, though? I know, but to me... Because it involved and needed to involve government and government...

But both sides came together to pass those bills. If you look at what Lyndon Johnson did, he brought the right and the left together to pass those landmark bills. He didn't do it at one side. Okay, but many people, I'm sure, voted against them. Absolutely. But enough voted for it, which is extraordinary. But that still requires politics to actually, you know,

Lyndon Johnson, the great picture of him where he's leaning over to that guy, you know, that picture I'm talking about. Sure, I was just at the library. That one picture shows that's how government is done, sad though as to say. Right. You know, he was, you vote for my bill, my friend, or let me tell you, they're going to make trouble in your district. That's a good impression. Well, whatever, it's my generic southerner, but...

Well, here's what I mean. Let me be a little bit clear. I shouldn't say politics. Like, it's not a movement of the left. No. That's what I mean. No. And it's not a movement of the right. To me, it's a humanist movement. Of course. That's what I mean. But I think it was hijacked by the left. And I think a lot of the reasons why was because I think the Vietnam movement, it kind of rode its coattails, you know, of the civil right. That's how I'm saying it. I mean, everything. It kind of got blended together, which that was certainly a movement of the left. I feel like all of...

the flow of our history, of any history. It's just backlash to backlash. Like something causes something. So like there was the original sin of slavery and then we had fought the war and so now they hate the North and now the Republicans and the Democrats. And then the Democrats came to be the champions before when the Republicans were more the champions of the African-American. And it just causes, I mean, the Republicans...

after they lost that constituency, they went the other way. Reagan opened his campaign in 1980 in Philadelphia, Mississippi. And that was a-- I mean, Philadelphia was-- It wasn't lost on people. It was not lost on people. It was a place where there was a racial atrocity. And he was winking at it. And he was saying, you know,

Not overtly, but racists, the people who are still racist, because certainly in 1980 we were still in, I would say, the racist era. I guess we will always be to a degree. Yeah. But much more. Right, right, right. And he was saying to them, you're welcome in this party because it's obvious by now, this is 16 years after JFK, that...

This is where the lines are drawn now in America. I remember reading a quote from a guy, and I cannot say the quote, so maybe I'll just point to you. But, okay, so this is some guy. It was some poor guy, white guy in Louisiana. And this was his summation of politics. The Republicans are for the rich. The Democrats are for the niggers. Who's for me? Yeah.

Right. That was, I thought it was like a haiku of poor, white. Well, Bill, here's the other thing. That was not, here's the thing a lot of people don't realize. That wasn't controversial language for people

No, I read it. I believe I read it in the newspaper. I remember Johnny Carson actually said that when Richard Pryor was, you know, because he was saying, you don't use the word nigger anymore. And Richard Pryor said, nigger, why are you using it? Johnny Carson. They did a whole sketch on SNL. Oh, yeah, yeah. In 1975. That's right. Yeah. I mean, it was just... Yeah.

I just think people were more mature then. And they could-- they had the context of, OK, we're using this word, but we're not using it in-- Exactly. --to be derogatory. And very often, in fact, we're using it to-- Sicking a pin in it. --in the cause of satirizing racism. Exactly. John Lennon had a song-- I remember.

I'm a big Beatles fan, by the way, too. It's something there. Oh, good. There you go. You must be if you know that shitty song and shitty record. It's not a good title either. It's not a good record. Yeah. It's called Sometime in New York City. Absolutely. And John had moved to New York. Yeah, he was drunk on Yoko. Yeah.

He was. During that time. And remember, that's why he needed that long fucking weekend with May Lee or whoever she was. I could bust you for racism on that one. Yeah, that's right. Larry, they're all called May Lee. Yeah, we too low. It's been a long time.

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How about that? Oh, that's awesome. That's Buddy Miles. That's amazing. It was in an album I had when I was like 13. Yes, albums like when you had something that big. Yeah, because they gave you a poster. Exactly. And then you can like, look at that. Yeah, I love that. It's so cool. You can see the creases, how it was in the album. Yeah, that's awesome. I know. I love that.

Anyway, so when John-- yeah, they moved to New York after the Beatles broke up. That's the Dakota, the place where he was unfortunately shot. Under investigation by Nixon at the time. Yes, and they were-- Elvis has helped. They were trying to throw him out. Nixon was trying to throw him out of the country.

He got past that and loved New York. Yes, he did. He could walk around. And they lived in Dakota, 72nd and Central Park West. And the guy who imagines no possessions, Elvis Costello busted him on a song called The Other Side of Summer. Right.

Was there a millionaire who said, imagine no possessions? And yeah, they had one floor just with shit in it. They bought a whole floor of the Dakota. There's a lot of excess, yeah. Yeah, well, it doesn't mean I don't love them. Right, a lot of contradictions with Lennon. Stars are just not like us. No, no. When they do dumb things like,

And rock stars get away with the most. Well, of course. They get away. Nobody gets away with it. And look, I think they were a very sincere couple. Yeah. But it does make me laugh that like, okay, I'm at the end of my rope to my marriage to this Asian woman. I'm going to...

I'm going to leave with a woman who's our secretary. I mean, it's like, talk about bringing your troubles with you. I know. Yoko version two. I mean, just, you know, obviously you need something different, man. Yeah. You know what was interesting going to the Beatles? People say that the real love affair, the real love story was John and Paul. Ah!

I say that. It was John and Paul. I say that often with whoever will listen. And I have this running argument going with someone. I won't say who, but he's a very close friend. And I say, have you seen? It's an eight-hour movie. The whole movie, we're talking about the get it,

Get Back movie. That's the Let It Be movie that they were making in 1969. That's right. Which was supposed to be just a filler for a TV show, actually. No, they wanted to make a movie. They had grand ideas about a big finale that they were going to film at the Pyramid. But the documentary part was the filler for the concert.

That's what it was going to be a live concert. And then they were just going to show their work on the show. I know, but they talked about it being on an amphitheater in Greece at dawn. And then they wound up going to the roof. That's what I love about Star. Oh, so yeah. Like, Ringo's like, I'm not going to some stupid amphitheater. It's like, an amphitheater, and they were going to do it on a boat, and you know, all this shit. And then they just go up on the roof. You've got to love a garage band. Oh, it was awesome. They're just the greatest garage band in the world. It's the best, yeah. It's the best. But like, throughout the whole movie,

He never even looks at you. It's just like a pot in plant. And he and Paul are making eye contact the whole time, making each other laugh.

It is a love affair. You can see it on camera. Complete. And I just don't understand why I have to even have this argument with people. No, they hated each other. No, absolutely not. Look, it's like you can lie with your mouth and lie in writing, but you cannot lie in...

pictures of your face. Yes, and demeanor. This is what the tabloids do best. They get pictures of people, and the pictures never lie. If you're having a good time in the relationship, they're looking at each other, they're making eye contact, they're smiling, they're laughing, and then there's those... Well, even the... I think what really... When the Beatles hit,

you know, they were kind of androgynous, I guess you could say, you know, using words now. People weren't really using that then. Yes. But it was like...

this is the term that I use with my daughter. I say, it was really just good old fashioned man on man love. That's what it was. Right. You know, where the love between men, it's a bond that-- and I don't mean in a homosexual way. I mean, but men have a certain type of love of each other that where they really want to be around each other because they share the same interests, which in that case is music making. Wait a second. Not in a homosexual way? Larry, I was going to pour you another drink.

Well, it doesn't have to be, is what I'm saying. No, I feel like an asshole. I was roofing you and everything. Well, apparently John was bisexual, too. No. He took that trip with Brian Epstein. He took a trip with him. I'm just saying Brian had a crush on him. Brian was gay. We all know that. But that doesn't mean they fucked on that trip. But you're right. I put it at a 50-50. I don't think it's impossible because...

It could have happened. It's weird to me because I would never do that. Like, I would never like, oh, you know what? I just think I'll see what it feels like to be in a man's ass all day. Not only does it not cross my mind, if it does, it upsets me. I don't want to do that. That doesn't mean I don't love gay people, but I'm not one of them. And so I don't get the, eh, I'll give it a try. It's just not something I feel that way about. I feel strongly about it. But if John was bisexual or didn't know he was bisexual, then maybe...

being with Brian kind of awakened that side of him. So it wasn't a straight guy doing that, but it was somebody who maybe had the inclination to do it. Let's see if we can introduce Yoko into this scenario where he's really secretly gay because she was a mother. Not secretly gay, bisexual. Okay, right, bisexual. Right, which is different. Very different. Right. So I could fit that in because she was a mother

I think Albert Goldman was the one who brilliantly pointed out he went from a stern mother figure with his Aunt Mimi to another stern mother figure, some would say, in Yoko. And arguably, Cynthia was probably better suited for him as a mate. And called her mother.

Yeah. Whenever a guy calls his wife mother, it's over. I'm so out. So this is an Oedipal type of thing. You want to have sex with your mom. Well, I mean, it's just, ugh. I mean, she calling you daddy? Nothing wrong with that. And he was pretty much abandoned by, he felt he was abandoned by his mother and his father.

Because that was his aunt who raised him. Well, his mother, yes, right. Even before she died, she kind of was like, I'm not trying to raise a son right now. I mean, his father just plain up got a cab. Oh, he was a dick. Yeah, I mean, OK, so that happens a lot. I mean, we don't condone it, but that's it. That's another thing. People don't realize how fucked up the world was with those types of things. Way more fucked up. Like, men were just a bunch of shit.

You could abandon families back then. Oh, totally. It was crazy. I mean, not that that still doesn't go on. Right. But I mean, it was ruthless in those days. That's why you have all those orphan stories and that type of thing. Let me ask you this. What do you think of the Larry Elder school? There is a school with facts. Larry Elder is not an unserious person. No, no, I know Larry. OK. Yeah. Right.

And he's not the only one. And they say, they give stats about black below the poverty line. Most of the progress was made between 1940 and 1960. This is their argument against the social justice stuff, even of the Lyndon Johnson era. And one of the stats is also that, like...

kids, black kids being born in a home with two parents, like much higher, like 67% in 1960. And by 1995, it was, you know, like 30, 40 points lower. Right. What do you think of that thesis?

That's the-- Proving-- I mean, that's what conservative black-- Well, I think those types of things-- because just so you know, I went down like a conservative rabbit hole in the '90s. Like, the whole '90s I spent going down this and reading up on all these people and listening to-- Thomas Sowell. All of it. All of it, right? Thomas Sowell, all of these people. Even Larry Elder when he first came on, and Dennis Prager, all these people.

And because my parents blessed me with the ability to think for myself, which is why I love you too. Yeah, right back at you, right. Keeping it 100. Exactly, right? So I take the things that I feel are to be true in my experience. And I don't care who says it. I don't care who says something if it's true.

Exactly. And I take things that I think, I think you have an agenda there that you're using this evidence-approving agenda. And I make a distinction between those two. Exactly how I try to do it. I make a distinction. Can I have a cigar? Is that, I brought a cigar? No, this is not a cigar. Do you mind if I smoke? Oh, no. Okay. Look, I think you won here. Oh, I appreciate it. But I brought it just in case. Why do you want it though?

What do you get out of that? I don't get it. It's a relaxation thing. Why? What's relaxing about it? It just is. I don't have a story. Really? I know. So many men are into it. Yeah. I've been smoking cigars for at least 25 years.

But you don't inhale it, of course. No, you don't inhale it. So that's what makes it. What? No, you still get a buzz from cigars. You do? Yeah, you do. You get a buzz from a cigar? Absolutely, especially a real strong cigar. Give me one. No, I'm serious. You do. People don't realize that. I don't realize that. This is a Jerry Lewis slider, by the way. You'll see what I mean. Well, ladies. Ladies.

But I'll tell you about this. There's a guy who got away with murder. Oh, yeah. When he was like, oh. Oh, Bill. It was crazy in those days. I mean, he really assaulted women. I mean, he really did. But a lot of different things can be true at the same time. So true. So let me just hit Spears about this real quick. All right.

A lot of those programs did break down the black family in this way. In order to qualify for welfare, a man couldn't be in the house. Okay? That was insidious to me. The government said, in fact, the movie Claudine explores that, James Earl Jones and Diane Carroll.

And so a lot of black families were broken up because if you're a poor and destitute and you needed the money, man couldn't be in the house. So why are you going to be married? And that happened from the 60s on. So that explains a lot of the breaking up. It happened from the 60s on. Correct. And we're talking about poor families. Okay, so let's continue down this because this is always what I'm trying to do is explain.

I don't trust either side. Right, me too. Not that they don't lie. They just don't give you the full story. Exactly. They have an agenda. So like now, this is great. I'm trying to-- I have a word for it, by the way. I call it primo simp juris. You're like a-- Primo-- Simp juris. That's Latin for First Simpson Jury.

Okay. Yeah. Where they clearly had an agenda. He's like, this black man is not going to jail. Not on our watch. He is not going to jail. Right. But that's what I felt at least. And I always defended black America on that one. Oh, yeah.

Oh, yeah. I'm not mad at the BBL. Like, no one's fooled that it wasn't a murder. Right. But the fact that white America couldn't stand they got one was so much more offensive than the murder itself. Exactly. That's exactly what it was. So anyhow, so this thing is, that's partly to blame what happened last.

In a lot of poor black communities, their families were broken up like that, especially young people. Why would they get married if they're not going to have government assistance? So many people didn't even get married, right? Right, right. So that did a lot of... But who passed that law? That was the Great Society. Okay, so that's their point. Was that the Great Society? But there's another point here. Okay. But there's also a...

growing black middle class and black upper class that's happened where families are together and education has been the key for that education has been a tool that always the key and it's always the key and people don't talk about how much bigger the black middle class is now than it was back then most black people live in the suburbs correct you know so so that's the other part of it so why don't we look at the successes of it too what do you think of biden's speech at morehead

Me too. I didn't like it. I loved Andrew Sullivan's column, as I always do. I love Andrew Sullivan. Yes. And I thought he had it right. First of all, he quoted Obama speaking at the same college like 10 years earlier. And it was night and day. Obama's was all about so many doors have been broken down. You have so many good reasons to hope and no more excuses and everything.

And went over way better. Of course, obviously, it's a different standard he's working from as a black man speaking at that college. But Biden's was just so, like, I thought, 2000 late. It's condescending. Condescending, yes. One of the reasons why I...

Al Gore really turned me off in 2000 when he was running against Bill Bradley in the primaries. And, you know, I'm a basketball fan, so don't talk against Bill Bradley. He's one of the classic Knicks. One of the classic Knicks. I've been a Knick fan since he was... Exactly. So even though I was a Laker fan, the Knicks have always been my second team, right?

So I'm not mad at Bill Bradley at all. Love Bill Bradley. But Al Gore said something like, if you vote for Bill Bradley, you're going to go back to the time when black people were one of those type of statements. Really? Bill Bradley's a Democrat. I know, but he was trying to make a point, because I don't know if Bill Bradley has said something or whatever, but he said something like that. Bill Bradley's a big liberal. Trust me, he said something like that in that vein. And I'm like, who's a liberal?

Who, Al Gore, you have a lot of fucking nerve, you know. First of all, he's the one from Tennessee, you know. Well, that's not half as obnoxious as when Biden called Charlemagne. Oh, yeah. He's being black, you know. That is such a bad attitude. So my take on this, too, Bill, is that I tell people, I was born in 1961, right?

And I was too young to know what was going on, all the bad shit that was going on in the world. But here's what I wasn't too young to get, that we were trying to go to the moon. And so I call my generation moonshot generation. Like anything was possible. Oh, you were eight. Yeah, anything was possible. We went to the fucking moon. And so Obama was born in the same year as me. He became president. And when I hosted the White House Correspondents, and I did Obama's last one. I remember. And I said the line that,

apparently got me in trouble. Fuck you, motherfuckers. I said, when we were kids, a black man couldn't even be the quarterback of a football team. And you're the leader of the free world. And I said, yo, Barry, you did it, my nigga. You did it. Oh, I remember. And I cried when I wrote the line, Bill, because of what it meant. And to me, I live in the world of aspiration.

Not in the world of desperation, you know, because I know those things exist. I've talked about them, make jokes about it, but I always keep it in perspective of you have to, if you want to build something, you don't want to just put band-aids on things in your life. You want to also build things in your life too. And you build through being inspired. It's such a healthier attitude, even if you're not political, just to understand that it's a healthier attitude for any individual and that we, uh,

As much as you have this despicable past and somewhat despicable present, but there's despicable everywhere, you still eminently live now in a society where that is possible, where anything is possible. Yeah, absolutely.

And I like when people point out, like I was doing something in Salt Lake City. It was a special called Larry Wilmore's Race, Religion, and Sex in Utah. It was the name of it. I did it at Showtime. What was it called? Larry Wilmore's Race, Religion, and Sex in Utah was the complete title. It was a special I did in Showtime. This is when Obama was running in 2012.

And people are like, and I wanted to have Mormons on the show. I just wanted to get their experience of things because Mitt Romney was running then. And I learned a lot about Mormons and how much they actually work and do things in poor black communities and that kind of stuff too. It's really interesting. Mormons are interesting people. But people were trying to tell me, yeah, for a lot of different reasons. Larry, Mormons, you know, up until 1978, you know, they wouldn't allow black people in the church. I'm like, what?

Give me one institution in America that didn't have a racist expiration date. Theirs was just in the '70s. Give me the Baptist Church. When was their racist expiration date? The Democratic Party. Give me their racist expiration date. I mean, that's funny. They go after this premier prime minister of Italy named Giorgia Maloney. And look, she's--

I don't think she's a kook at all. She's a conservative. She got elected, OK? She's not a nut. Right. They constantly-- but because they have-- because nothing is nuanced anymore. In the paper, they always talk-- the second thing out of their mouth is always, well, she has fascist party roots. Right, really? Yes, because like her grandfather something, something Mussolini, but she's renounced him. Right. And I always want to say, the Democratic Party

has Ku Klux Klan roots. Robert Byrd was your speaker not that long ago, and he was in the Klan. And again, the Dixiecrats, Strom Thurmond. He was successful in the Klan. He was the Grand Wizard. Who? Robert Byrd. He was the Grand Wizard? I think he was the Grand Wizard. Not only in the Klan, he did well in the Klan.

Bill, you're leaving out the most important part. He was a success. Yeah, but you know those top brass. They don't know anything about the field. He was a bureaucrat in the clan. Exactly. That's how you get to the top. You kiss ass and you go along and you're political, okay? You don't have to actually burn the crosses anymore. It's the guys in the trenches with the crosses. The sergeants, the lieutenants, they're the ones doing all the work. Club Random is brought to you by the audio marketing gurus at Radioactive Media.

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Hey, I'll be at the David Copperfield Theater at the MGM Grand Hotel and Casino June 21st and 22nd in Las Vegas, the Orpheum in Minneapolis, Minnesota July 13th, and the Riverside Theater in Milwaukee on July 14th. July 26th, the MGM Music Hall at Fenway Park, Boston, Massachusetts, and July 27th, Toyota Oakdale Theater in Wallingford, Connecticut.

You mentioned Utah. It just made me think. Here's a woke thing that pissed me off. Yeah. Okay, so I'm reading, and I don't want to be. I love the New York Times today. I've been reading it since I was a child, literally a child. They've got a lot more woke, and so I do take my shots at them, but I hope they know. I've been reading it for about 45 years. Yeah, I hope they know. I certainly don't stop reading them.

But some things make my eyes roll. And so I'm sorry I have to mention it. I don't have to mention this, and it's trivial, but it's just an example of the kind of person that is in the newsroom now. I'm sorry, but they're probably of a certain generation that thinks I'm a square, but I'm not the square, actually.

So I'm reading this. It's reading about Rudy Gobert. Rudy Gobert? You know, do you know a sport? The basketball player? Yeah. Yeah, from Minnesota. Yeah, now. OK, but he was on the Jazz. Right, yes, that's right. So he gets traded to the Wolves. They're now in the semifinals. Right, Western Conference finals. Yeah. So...

And it was like, the headline was like, so that when he got traded, they made a story about him like, Rudy O'Bear on, you know, playing defense and whatever and racism in Utah. And I thought, oh, I can't wait to get to this part because it sounds like this. And then the question comes.

What about racism in Utah? And Rudy Jo Behr's answer was, yeah, everybody was great to us all the time. My wife, my family, they were just great. And you can almost feel the reporter's disappointment. Like, oh, there was no race. I mean, that's great. There was no racism in Utah. Are you sure? You want to take your time on this? And that's the thing about the younger generation that you were getting at before. They feel cheated by progress. Yeah.

That's a good way to put it, yeah. Right. There's some things being missed out on. You really don't want that. No. You think you do, but you really don't. And granted--

The other thing is because of social media, when there are incidents, they get blown up like that's the norm, but it's not. You're not going to go in the South and there aren't separate bathrooms. What people are blowing up on social media was the norm everywhere at a certain point. That's the biggest change. It's not. Now there are incidents here and there, but it feels like it's everywhere because if it's being shared. I feel like racism is written about

Almost exclusively by people who live in places where they never actually see any. Sometimes, yeah. This town. Nothing could be less cool than to be racist. Right. In 2024. Right. This is not most of your life. Yeah. But that's where we are now. Great. I'm applauding it. But like in the places where people write, New York, L.A., Washington. Yeah.

they don't actually see it. They're writing about-- imagine racism. Right, but they practice it. They think that the deplorables are doing in the part of the country they never actually see. Right. And sometimes-- and there is some of that. Right.

There is some of that still. There is a residual. But it's not, it's probably older and fading and not controlling. It's better. Like part of my career was fighting the conception that blacks couldn't be as good as writers as whites, you know? So like a white writer could be on a black show, but a black writer could never be on a white show. Right. So that's one of the reasons why I wanted to create TV shows, so I could open up those opportunities and prove that

And you did. Yeah, when I created the Bernie Mac show, it was a conversation of a friend of mine had. He said, Larry, how come there's no black Seinfeld? And I said, because you haven't written it yet. And then I went, oh, shit, I haven't written it yet. But what she meant was a black show that's considered smart

and not just funny, you know, because white shows were considered, the good white shows, you know, there's a lot of dreck and stuff. But a show like Seinfeld was not just funny, it was considered smart. And black shows never had that considered smart element to it. Bernie Mac was. But I broke through with that. To do that, it was considered smart. I have to say, Bernie Mac...

was just a genius performer. He really was. Like, he kind of liked the black Jack Benny to me. You know, because he was just like so under, like the least little, and it worked so well. That's a great analogy. Yeah, he was just a minimalist. Absolutely. Like, he could say it. His ability to promote. Yeah, with just a few words and a look and just...

And he had one of those abilities where he could say the most offensive things and get away with it. Like he said, I believe you should be able to hit a child in the stomach or the throat.

Or the throat. I mean, who says you should be able to hit a kid in the throat? But I don't imagine you gave him many long speeches. No, no, no, no. We had a great- Because he just did everything so compact. No, he was great. And I always said, Bernie, this is just the script. If you want to change this, then do it. But we talked very much about the content of it, you know?

And I just wanted to make sure we knew. If we both knew what the scene was about, you can change the words because we know what the scene's about. Right. So that's how we approached it. But he was so good. He would do the lines too, but he had such a great sense of what the scene was and that sort of thing. So our conversations were very short. Remember him in Bad Santa? Oh, yeah. It's hilarious. Oh, my God. Yeah.

Really, that is a genius comedy portrayal. Yeah, Bernie's memes, he has memes for a reason, because his face was so expressive. Right. You know, just the way he would look at something. And what is it that took him so young? Sarkadocious. It was an autoimmune disease. He actually died, I think, of pneumonia, but it was the autoimmune disease. I think he got pneumonia twice in the hospital. Why did he have an autoimmune disease? It's something...

It's this particular one, many black people get it for some reason, kind of like lupus and that sort of thing. It's one of those things. It's not sickle cell anemia, not related to that. But it just happens to be one of those things. Like certain cultures are just predisposed just from it being passed down over the years to get certain things. You know, go figure. Yeah, well, or it could also be the food.

I don't know. I mean, who knows? Could be. Who knows? Well, that's always what I say about all medical issues. Who knows? Right. Not that they don't know more than they used to. They just don't know much. And so let a thousand flowers bloom. Don't cut me off from any medical theory. I know you think some of it is crackpot. Right. But-

But so many times we've learned that what you were doing was crackpot. Right. And what someone thought was crackpot turned out to be not the crackpot. Right. So let's just hear everything. Yeah. Don't stop me from hearing everything. I agree with you. You know, I've heard you talk about this subject a lot. Yeah.

And I agree with you in the big picture because it's funny though, medicine and astronomy are the two most changing subjects that we've had forever. The earth is flat.

The sun revolves around there. You are excommunicated from the church. A leech should be put on yourself to get the blood out of your system. I know. It's like medicine and astronomy. It keeps proving itself wrong. You don't even have to go back that far. 15 years ago, they were telling us to eat trans fats, which now are illegal.

So the thing, then that was like, I can't believe it's not butter, oleo. It was this fake. But now they found out. Because fat was the enemy. But meanwhile, they were pumping us with shit. Well, this was a certain type of fat that they, again, this century, were saying, get this shit in you. And then went, oh, whoops.

It's so bad that we pulled it off the shelves. The U-turns in the 20th century alone. Don't tell me. I mean, Bill, the icon of healthy food at one point was Tony the fucking Tiger. Right. It's great. I mean, he was speaking to kids about pumping all that sugar in your body first thing in the morning. Did you see Seinfeld's Pop-Tart movie? Oh, yeah. It's a fucking scream. Yeah, there's a lot of funny stuff. It's so funny. I mean, I...

I heard these things like, "What is this movie?" People were like, "What the fuck is this?"

And then it was so-- I mean, it was so adeptly paced. Yeah. You know, it just went from one-- It's kind of old-fashioned in a fun way. --very '60s. I mean, about the '60s, but also invoked a kind of a filmmaking style. A little bit of Preston Sturges in some ways. Yes. Yeah. A little bit of that. Which they had totally revived in the '60s. And Elizabeth of Sex. Yes. And Elizabeth of Sex.

Preston Sturges had that kind of snappy style where you could barely rest and something funny was coming along. But it was also highbrow. It was sophisticated. Oh, you know what? But he wasn't afraid to knock you in the knees. Like, what's a great Preston Sturges movie? I'll tell you right now, my favorite, The Lady Eve.

"The Lady Eve." - Watch "The Lady Eve" 'cause Barbara Stanwyck is irresistible in it. - Really? - And Henry Fonda is so great 'cause Henry Fonda's just awesome. - Henry Fonda and Barbara Stanwyck. - It is an amazing cast and there's characters in it that are funny, but their love affair is so great, you know? And it's classic Preston Sturges. It's just this, this, this, that. - I'm a little fuzzy. I know Barbara Stanwyck. I used to use her name in a punchline. - Yeah.

Was she a hottie of her day? Was she a hottie? Oh, my god. Really? Oh, my god, Bill. Watch the Lady Eve. You'll go-- You're saying I'll get a century later boner from-- Yes, exactly. --Stanwood? Better later than never. You ever had those century boners, right? I used to do a bit-- I love that bit-- about how I can't masturbate. And it came from the truth about something that I

I couldn't actually be doing. Like if I saw a movie that took place in the Middle Ages, I couldn't masturbate about the serving wedge because I'm not in the Middle Ages. Even if it was like a James Bond movie, I can kind of transfer that to like, oh, okay, I'm not James Bond, but I'm playing the casino. So many rules to your masturbation. Yeah.

Well, there had to be a thread back to reality. Right. To this day. Like, there has to be a thread back to, that could actually happen. Right. It might be a little unlikely, but the Middle Ages, that's impossible. I agree. You know, I always say this, this is the...

Kind of on the same subject, like when people talk about time travel, you could go back to the Middle Ages or these things. I always feel like people never factor in the smell. They never do. They never do. Like the world smelled horrible in the past, Bill. Horrible. Many things. They didn't factor. Choose any period. It smelled horrible. Seth MacFarlane made a really great movie about that concept called A Million Ways to Die in the West. Mm-hmm.

And that was the idea. I remember that. I never said it. Oh, it's really good. And it's about that idea that

It's easy to romanticize the past, but if you really lived in the West where a splinter could kill you-- Right, exactly. And there was a million ways to tell-- So many things that could kill you. That's funny. These kids-- that's very funny. Yeah, it's a great premise. These kids today-- I literally said these kids today, but it's so true-- they have no perspective-- Right.

about the time that they live in and how fortunate they actually are. - Use the sea bars. - In almost every way. If you measure it, now if you're just feeling angst, okay, but if you actually looked shit up, read Steven Pinker on this. He's the one who's, I feel like covers this the best.

And we can measure this shit. We know shit, for example. It was only 20 years ago where like a billion people shit in the street in the world. And we've really cut that down.

Bill, the automobile was a green alternative to horses. Right. It was a green alternative because of all that shit that was in the streets and the disease. Yes. And the disease and the flies. The automobile was a green alternative. You're right. Horseshit. Must have been a terrible thing. That's why shoeshine boys are so popular back then. Let me get that shit off your shoes, sir. Right. Wow. Such a big deal. I thought of that. Yeah. Spats. Remember those spats and all that stuff? Of course. That was from shit.

You know, you won't get that stuff on your shoes. Wow. Wow, that's happy. It's a stinky-- all I'm saying is the world was stinky, and people should know this. People should know how stinky the world was.

I tell you, I don't think I've changed since I was 18 with talking to a funny guy. It's like it just never gets old. You know, it's funny. I've been watching. I agree with you. And thanks again for having me, man. It's so awesome for me. Are you leaving? No, no, no. You were talking about. No, I'll stay as long as I can. But you were talking about Seinfeld. And I don't like all the.

the reevaluation of Jerry, you know? 'Cause Jerry's a fucking-- - Genius. - Fucking genius, who a lot of comedians owe their careers to somebody like Jerry Seinfeld. He thought of comedy differently than anybody when we hit. We know how much of a star, he was a star in comedy clubs way before people knew who he was.

at the beginning. Bill, right way before people knew who he was. I know, but I had the privilege of being one of the people who like, you know, saw him every night. Yes. Because that was our life back then. He was a little ahead of me, like, years-wise. But like, I was-- when I first-- I've told this before, but when I auditioned at the comic-- I auditioned at three clubs-- Catch a Rising Star, the Improv, and the Comic Strip.

The person who passed me, the emcee decided you could hang out as a-- you could be a neophyte comic, was Jerry at the comic strip and Larry at the improv. So-- Jerry did a joke back then, still one of my all-time favorite jokes. This was like 1978.

where he said, I was just at the Smithsonian, you know, and I saw they had-- do you know this joke? No. He says-- and I'm doing a terrible joke, so I'm-- he says, they had Neil Armstrong's toothbrush, you know? I do remember this. And it said, "Unloan" to the Smithsonian. I do remember this, yes. And I'm like, "Unloan?" I'm like, "Neil, give them the toothbrush." And I'm like, that is hilarious. I mean, who thinks of that, you know?

Neil, give them the toothbrush. That's one of the best punch lines. Yeah, oh no. Because it's not traditional. It's all point of view, you know? But anyhow, my point was like, I don't like that kind of stuff. But I also love when Jerry said, the thing that makes him the most happy is hanging with another comic.

Totally. And just shooting the shit. And he's right. Because there's a bond there. And this is back to the John and Paul thing. There's a fucking bond there that we love. It is. You know, of the deconstructing shit and talking shit about stuff. Yeah. You know. I mean, look, I'm not going to lie. It is not above in my pantheon like a beautiful woman.

Sorry. We're not crazy here. But take that electric element out of it that, you know, this is completely cerebral, where the other thing can be cerebral and... Serves both purposes. And also sexy at the same time. North American, South American. I mean, you can't compete with that. Nothing can. Nothing in the world, like a beautiful woman, is also very smart. Right. You know, I mean, but...

You can't get that every night. So this is just a great-- now, this is-- yeah, it's just-- I've heard of-- I think we're thinking of the same interview I think he did with R.E. Weiss the other day. Oh, that was brilliant. It was so great. It was brilliant. And to see Jerry unguarded like that-- Emotional. --talking about-- yeah, I've never seen that. I was amazed because--

He is the, you know, it's him and Leno who did that, used to do that character Iron Jay. Yes. To this day, I call him Iron Jay. Hey, Iron Jay, because he really is iron. That's hilarious. And Jerry's kind of the same way. I mean, they're very bulletproof. People are forgetting about Jay, too, by the way. That's another one.

They've forgotten the brilliance of Jay Leno. Oh, I haven't. Yeah. They've told me I talk about him too much on this podcast. No, Jay, and also... I love him. Jay doesn't get credit. You know me, I give people props. My brother wrote for Jay on his show for a while. Oh, really? And he had to have a kidney release, and man...

Jay was first to help him out and try to find somebody. Mike Ovitz, too, CAA. He helped my brother out. There's a few people like that who are genuinely... Sean Penn is another one like that. He's genuinely like a man of action. And Jay is the same way. He genuinely is that guy. Required no thanks, Bill. He required nothing. And I'm like, are you kidding me?

Jay, I am this forever. No, they're very superheroish. I know Jay doesn't need a lot of sleep. And they're just much more about all that stuff. I mean, I help out where I can. But I'm just not the superhero type. I'm the sit around and get stoned type. I can't help that. I ain't managing. But Jay gets knocked because, yeah, when he's not hosting a show, he can come in.

and just bam, bam, bam, because he's been doing these jokes in the club act and be on Letterman and do that. But when you're hosting a show, Bill, you know how it is. You have to do a show every fucking night. It's not the same as guesting in a show. And you've curated shit over the past six months, and you're coming in killing it. And there's very few people who will understand this, but having done a show like that, you were one of them on this level. But during the strike of 2007,

Jay wrote his own monologue. Yeah, I remember. And none of us-- none other of us could do that. Maybe you could. I don't know. I couldn't. I'm going to say that right here and now. I came up with a monologue once a week. It was-- but that's not-- I mean-- It's not an easy one. I tweak every monologue joke. But writing them, I don't-- that's not my baby on the show. I think I'm great at picking the great ones. But they write them.

The end of the show, that monologue, that's me. Well, that's point of view. I mean, that's point of view. I mean, they, of course, are instrumental in how good it comes out, I think, because jokes and... But the ideas and the force behind it, the idea...

force behind it is usually from me. It's what I want to say about this subject. And I will give them a template of how to do it. And thank God I have them because it wouldn't nearly be the same. But...

But only Jay could have written his own fucking whole, like, it didn't look that different than when he had 20 writers. The volume of jokes, too. Jay didn't just do five jokes in a monologue. The volume, nobody did as many jokes in a monologue as Jay. It's crazy how many he did. He would do, what, he would do like 15 minutes?

Like Carson did four or five, you know. If you go back and look at the Carsons, his monologue was not very long. And sexy, but it was him dancing when the joke fucking bombed. And they played tea. May your mother's day be for two. May a diseased yak. Yes, exactly.

Yeah, Jay, he's a workhorse. Oh, unbelievable. Yeah. I mean... So I get a little salty when people have revisionist history about people who we know to be the titans. You know, not just... We're not just talking funny. We're talking titans. Right. They open the door for all these comics who have an opinion now about who's funny and who's not. You know, that's... I'm not a high horse about it, but I just like to check that. Yeah, oh, yeah. Yeah. No, it's a...

I mean, where the talk world went was the definition of the Andy Warhol. 15 minutes. Yes. I mean, right now there are probably 50,000 other people doing a podcast. Right, I know. It's so true. It's like if when Johnny Carson was on, he was up against Merv Griffin, Dick Cavett, and 4 million other people. I know. It's so true. And they had good shows, too.

They do? No, Cavett and Merv Griffin. Oh, yeah. Yeah. They were just different, and they couldn't survive against Johnny ultimately. I was too young to do the Cavett show, but I did Merv Griffin when I started when he was out here. And he did three shows. Well, his late night show that was on in the 60s, I don't remember it then, but I've looked at it now recently. Merv? It was brilliant.

Merv? Yes. Was brilliant? I'm telling you. Because? His show. He didn't even do a comedy monologue, did he? Wait, was Merv or Mike Douglas? Which one am I thinking of? They're both corny. No, but I'm telling you, and I hope I'm not messing up. I'm pretty sure it is Merv, though. Where...

He had a-- this was like Richard Pryor cut his teeth on this show, did a lot of these. We all did. I was about to tell you. But this is before "The Afternoon Show." That's what I'm saying. No, it wasn't in the afternoon. Yeah. Merv was never in the afternoon. They taped it in the afternoon. I'm saying Merv was this very lovely gay gentleman. Oh, that's good. Ooh. Right. Rick Moranis. Rick Moranis. Yeah. Ooh, that's good. Let me see the line. Ooh.

And he was a sweet guy. And they would tape at 3:30, 4:30, and 5:30.

And if you got the 330 shot, it was like all these old ladies, they bust in from Hollywood Boulevard. Right. And there I am, 26-year-old. Exactly. You know, snacking. Oh, he's a funny young guy. Right. Bill Maher, he's Kip Adada, everybody. Yeah, exactly. And then you talk to him for a couple of minutes. And I mean, it was cutting your teeth. Yeah. It was painful. Yeah. And you got through it. And you know, I mean...

I remember keeping a log of all the jokes I did on Merv so I knew what I did on Johnny and all the different shows. Those shows were so innocent. Remember that show, Make Me Laugh? Of course.

I mean, it was fun seeing all the comics on shows like that, you know? Because there weren't as many outlets for that type of thing. And to see them on that show-- the premise of that show, I thought, was always a good premise. It was one show-- It was kind of bizarre, though, too. Some of them were so low budget. Evening at the Improv. There was one show-- I did it all over. You did that? Oh, yeah, I did it all over. Yeah. Yeah, I did-- there was one-- it might have been Make Me Laugh.

they were so cheap. They cut... You did a set, but they put commercials in between. And they wouldn't even...

They would just cut it-- cut it like at three minutes, six minutes. That may have been Norm Crosby's comedy shop. Maybe that's what it was. So like, you'd be in the middle of a war. Yes, exactly. And I'd tell you something about pirates. Yes, exactly. How cheap can you be? When he came back, he turned into Steve Bluestine. What happened? Yeah, Steve Bluestine.

Those were the shows, man. It was so much fun. What comedy club did you... I started here in the West Coast. Where? But I mainly did...

You know, I did the improv. I didn't do the comedy store. I auditioned a couple of times. I just never fit in over there. So I was an improv guy. I didn't fit in at the comedy store. You know, I think she had a type that she liked. It wasn't me. It wasn't me either. Yeah. It wasn't me either. No, you know when you're welcome. You know it immediately. And when you're not. Right, exactly. Which is fine, you know. I had no problem. I was very welcome at the improv. Me too, yeah.

That felt like home. And I ended up liking that style of comedian that were more the improv than I did the comedy. There was nothing against those guys. No. Because the comedy store, you know what it had? More showy. Yeah, and big names, too, that would splash in there. I used to sneak into these places, by the way, or sit in the back.

And I remember once I did the open mic night, I think, but I was underage. I was like 18 or 19. This was like 1979 or something like that. And I was in the original room and this guy goes, excuse me, walks by me and it's fucking Richard Pryor. And I'm like, oh shit.

And I got to see him do a set in the belly room, you know. And he's just working on stuff, not a lot of laughs. Right. Working it out, you know. Right. And I was like, oh, shit. And then I went from there and I went into the main room, you know, walking in after he was done. And Letterman is emceeing. Wow. Letterman. And I remember Jim J. Bullock. Remember Jim J. Bullock? Of course. I mean, he would kill.

Hell in those days. Really? People don't remember him now. Well, he had all this energy. It was a gay thing, right? Yeah, but it was all that energy on stage. He was on Hollywood Squares. Hollywood Squares. And he did Too Close for Comfort, I think, was his big thing with, what's his name from Mary Tyler Moore's show?

But he was really hot at that moment, I remember. Right. I remember seeing Jim Carrey in there when he was first starting out. People like that. Jim Carrey who would... Sam Kinison. Who would do impressions just of the face. Yeah, exactly. He could make his face look like somebody and not have to say a word. My brother used to do that. He's a special kind of talent. My brother did a Milton Berle face. He would just go...

He was doing something like that, like, I can't do it. No, you can't. But he would just do his face like Milton Berle. And I was like, how do you do that? I don't know. There are certain things people do in show business that just make me go, wow. I mean, I can't do improv, or I wouldn't want to try. You know, it's funny. I was listening to you talk about Bellzoom.

And it just made me think, because of what you were talking about. Well, let me say it like this. I went down a rabbit hole to look at the early Saturday Night Live again, because I realized I missed a lot of them. You go down a lot of rabbit holes. I know. I go down a lot of rabbit holes. Do you? I do. I go down a lot of rabbit holes. Well, I love history right now, so I'm doing a lot of history rabbit holes. But are you one of those people who, like, when you're... Yeah.

I know what you're going to say. I didn't even check it. No, I-- Like you're looking at YouTube and then-- Tell you what it is. I never do. I'll tell you my first one. When I was a kid, I read a book on Houdini. And then I had to read every book on Houdini. I had to learn everything I knew about Houdini. Oh, yeah, that guy. So same-- and then it happened with Buster Keaton. I fell in love with Buster Keaton. Wow. And a friend of mine had a 60 millimeter projector. And he would screen the movies-- Wow. --all his shorts. And so I got to see Keaton.

just you know have that experience and so i knew everything you could know about buster keaton then it was the marx brothers

And then it was the Beatles. And the Beatles happened for me after John Lennon died. You feel like any of this found its way into your writing? Well, you know what it is? I like observing-- like, at that time, I was fascinated with what made people big. I was fascinated with that. And it just fascinated me. I said, why is this a thing? Like, with the Beatles--

I remember I knew who the Beatles were. They were in the background. But it wasn't like a thing for me growing up. My parents weren't into that either. Right.

you know, like the Atlantic recordings were more like what was in my house. Yeah, the Beatles' Angel passed over the black community. It did, a lot of... Not because of them. No, not because of them, but some songs stood out that I remember. Well, it just wasn't... It just wasn't a thing. It wasn't the year yet. It just wasn't a thing. It was pre-civil... It was pre-America as a multicultural society. It just wasn't a thing. It was still an apartheid society, basically.

Yeah, in many ways. So you just didn't, black kids just didn't go to Beatles concerts. They wouldn't have thought that they could. It just wasn't the thing. And probably they were seeing it a little corny. Right. Completely. Yeah, they weren't James Brown. Right, but although the Beatles always gave props to the black artists who inspired them, they always did. And they also had a lot of soul.

You don't have to be black to have sold the Beatles' proof. I didn't many other groups. I mean, You Really Got a Hold of Me was one that they did. Yes. They did a really great version of that. Oh, they do. You know, Smokey Robinson. And their own shit. Right. I mean, they have lots of soulful songs. So I remember, yeah, absolutely. Maybe I'm Amazed is like a great song. That's not them. That's Courtney. But you know what I mean, it's Paul. But anyhow, my brother had...

it might have been an eight track, I don't remember, of the Beatles live at the Hollywood Bowl. This is after Lennon died. And I was listening to it and Bill The Screams took me, made me do all this. And I was like, what the fuck? Because it's one thing to have the music playing, but to go back to the experience of them took me. And I was like, what is going on here? When they called it Beatlemania, they were not exaggerating. Even at eight years old when it happened, I kind of understood that.

I didn't have anything to compare it to. But I kind of even got it then that there was something going on with this that was outrageous. Well, this goes back to our earlier conversation. Because since I have to be the historian, because I went down the rabbit hole scenario. Please, I love historians.

The Beatles hit at exactly the right time. - Yes. - Because a lot of these things-- - After the Kennedy assassination. - After the Kennedy assassination, because they had the chance to hit before that. As you know, their singles came out here and didn't do anything. It didn't resonate. - All of 1963. - That's exactly right. - All those singles flopped. - Our president gets assassinated. It breaks the heart of the country.

- Right, and they needed some relief. - And the youth, if anything, was a transition time for youth in America also. That's the other thing that was going on. And a lot of the folk music, it was coming out in there, but it hadn't really come out in popular music yet, the revolution that was happening. Popular music hadn't done it yet.

you know, folk music had done it, but not pop music. So Dylan was a big thing, but, you know, that was more for older A-heads, college students. Right. So the joy that was in that singing, the joy that was in it, you know, the joy in those harmonies was what connected with people, you know? Yeah, there's amazing energy and, you know, the love they had for each other translated and all that. And it was new in the hair. Exactly. There's somebody who...

as people have said this theory before, who had a twist on this that will amuse you since you said this. They killed Kennedy?

He said, you know who killed Kennedy? Oh, yeah. Wasn't there? Yeah. He said, look who are the most to gain, Brian Epstein. That's hilarious. I love that. By the way, I can swat down any of those assassination theories. That's hilarious. That's so funny. I love that. I can't remember who said that. That actually makes sense. It makes sense. I mean, it's not true, but it makes sense. But yeah, they did benefit from that. And also, you know, I Want to Hold Your Hand was a catchy record.

And like Elvis, it had black roots in that record too. All of them though. Yes. All of them. That hand cry.

Yeah. Well, I mean, Chuck Berry was John Lennon's. He stole Come Together directly from Chuck Berry. He didn't even change the line. Here come all the flags. I mean, Jesus. Even Paul said, maybe you should slow it down. Yes, they did. Because it sounds like it. I mean, look, again, John Lennon on my ultimate, ultimate pantheon. Took a lot of stuff.

You know, Paul McCartney is a musical genius. He is. Nobody is quite on his level. Not quite. And John, I'm sure, knew that. Yeah, he was jealous. He was jealous a little bit. Well, he just couldn't keep up quite in the competition. And that's a good example of like, you know, and I think as the years went by, like his genius was in the first half of the Beatles' life. I agree. Yeah.

He was the spirit of the band. He was the leader of the gang that became a band. And it was early rock and roll and their early sound, which was fantastic in its own way. But in the second half, first of all, he was on drugs. And then he was with Yoko. And he was lazy by his own admission. And lonely sleeping. And bright. Exactly. I'm so tired. How many songs where he's given us clues, Bill? Right.

And then everything else is gobbledygook. Right, gobbledygook. I always say that about their lyrics. I don't have time for lyrics. No, exactly. It's funny. I've used that same word. John, you couldn't write a real lyric or...

Right. He was lazy by his own admission, and he was kind of over the, like, I conquered the world. What the fuck do you want from me? And I'm looking for something more. It happens to be Yoko Ono. No, she's cool. Okay, so, but in that second half, I mean, Paul, I think, really took over. He did. And even with John's songs, like that one, he was kind of important to make it happen. Not that John, I mean, Revolution is...

Could be my all-time favorite if I had to name one Beatles song, the fast version of Revolution. And that's a John Lennon song. And here's the thing, to prove your point. It's the B-side to Hey Jude. I always say that. It's the B-side to Hey Jude. That's my theory as to why they- It's like Hey Jude, bitches. How about that? Well, that's my theory. It's been in the paper. I've said it before about why they broke up was they prized singles and John kept getting the B-side. Strawberry Fields is the B-side of Penny Lane. Lane.

There's a number of, Rain is the B-side. - Paperback writer. - Of paperback writer, right. - And Rain is brilliant too. - Let It Be was the B-side. - Let It Be is the A-side. - I mean the A-side. - And The Ballad of John and Yoko. - No, no, no, that was its own single. - Oh, that was his own, okay. - And that's another example of how John and Paul, it was still the love affair.

They recorded that in May of 1969 after he got back from his honeymoon. Right. Battle of John and Yoko, yeah. They're the only ones on the record. John and Paul, Ringo and George were out of the country. Good old-fashioned man-on-man love. Man-on-man love. And Paul played drums, and John played guitar, and, you know. I love that that song...

It's just John's diary of what happened. Like, there's no songwriting in it at all. But at least, apropos of gobbledygook, the lyrics make sense. It's a story. Right, exactly. I think the lyrics are great to that song. Yeah. But gobbledygook, you know, it's funny. Well, next thing you know, they're going to crucify me is a great lyric. Yeah.

It is. And they banned it. The way things are going, they're going to crucify him. They banned it. They couldn't play it because he said Jesus Christ. Christ, you know it ain't easy. Well, that's him also saying fuck you to all that. Remember when they wanted to burn?

Burn the Beatle records because of the Jesus comment. I think John, he didn't forget shit. Oh, no. I think that's a callback. I never heard that, but that's interesting. Yeah, until that. It's like, okay, fuck you. I'm doubling down. That was like the first cancellation when he said,

We're more popular than Jesus Christ. And then they're on tour, and there's that great tape. We still have it. It's in the anthology of him at a press conference. And you can just tell he's had it up to here with having to explain himself. I know. I never said we were better or greater than Jesus Christ or a person or a thing or whatever it is. I just said what I said, and it was wrong, or it's been taken wrong, and now it's all this. That's great, yeah. And it's just like...

And that was cancellation. Yeah, by the time... And he still had that attitude when they're...

when they were announcing Apple. It's supposed to be this happy thing, but John can't take the questions. No, he's got a sour look on his face. And he says, we're starting a company, so someone who just has an idea for a film or a record or a tape or something doesn't have to sit on his knees in someone's office. Probably yours. Probably yours. Yeah.

How awesome is that? Probably yours. We're never breaking it. It's like we were just asking you what it does. Never breaking character, never smiling. No wink at the end. And compare that to like 1964, landing the press conference at the airport with these giddy young kids. Oh, we're in America, and it's great, and you all love us. And what you're asking is questions. If I had a haircut, I'd want yesterday out.

Can you say, no, we need money first? Yeah, we need money first. And just a few years later, it's this sour, stone-faced, cynical, like what the world did to them. I mean, Beatlemania. Well, that's an example of how fame can really fuck you up, too. You know, when...

Because a lot of their experience, and I think Paul talked about this, was a hotel, another hotel, another hotel. Of course. Stage. Where they didn't even have their own room. Yeah. They couldn't see any of the places they went to. But not your own room? I know. You're the biggest act in the world? I know. It's crazy. And you have to share a bunk with George? And they would sneak in women, too.

They would? Oh, yeah, absolutely. They must have. Oh, they absolutely did. I hope they did. Oh, yeah, they did. They didn't talk about it a lot because John was married. Right, right. They must have. And in those days, things were kept hush-hush more, those types of things. But they absolutely did that. I hope so. Yeah. They certainly have kept that mum then. Yeah. So I'll do my quick Beatle impression for you, okay? Whoa. So because the way I've broken it down is by where it exists in my head, okay? So...

And these are the young beaters. So like, Paul, you know, he's up here. You're like, he's up here. You know, you don't-- I mean, who knows? You know, he's down there. I mean, who knows? I mean, you know, we might be gone by the time he's there. I mean, who knows? You know, and then-- And then when you get to John, it goes to the nose, you know. Right. It's more like, this is John speaking with his voice.

And then George used the whole mouth. Well, who knows? I mean, I can play it if you want me to, Paul, or I can not play it. I can do whatever you want. But you have to, it's in your mouth when you do George. And then Ringo goes back to Earth.

Hello, lads. This is Ringo Stoller. You're right. It's all in different parts. All you have to do is shift the part of your head that the voice belongs in. So you can go from both. Hello, lads. You've got to make a thing out of that. A meme or I don't know. Yeah, but it's fun. I love just...

Going down, those types of things. But Beatles were different than all those others because there was something about it. Who were your other musical icons? Who's on your pantheon? Like, for me, Beatles, of course, are probably at the top. Beatles came later. Like, when I was growing up, there were a couple of people

I think the first music that meant something to me was probably Marvin Gaye. I love Marvin Gaye. What's going on? It's the music of my soul, Bill. It's the best way I could put it. If you were going to ask me who's in my pantheon, I was going to mention him. It's Marvin Gaye's opening at the top. In fact, Apple just did that. And somewhat underrated because he certainly had his hits. Right.

Heard it through the grapevine and what's going on. And he used to perform with other artists like Tammy Terrell and that type of thing, too. But to do a song about the ecology in 1970 in the black community? Barry Gordy was against it. I'm sure. Yeah, didn't want him to do it. Because Motown was so clean and antiseptic back then. No, not in 1970, because Supremes had broken through that. Do I have...

from the Supremes album. Isn't that awesome? When they put out Love Child, that was a groundbreaking record. That's right. Because Barry Gordy always wanted to keep it just like, let's not offend the white record buyer. That's exactly right. Let's just keep it to men and women. That transcends racial lines. That's right. Every girl knows what it's like to be hearing a symphony or-- Right. Stop in the--

Or stopping in the name of love. Or, you know. Right, whatever it was. It just keep me hanging on. Yeah, and that's a great song. Oh, so great. But when they, I don't remember how it came about, but I'm sure it took a lot of,

lobbying, he put out Love Child, and it was huge. Yeah. And then they put out a successor, Livin' in Shame. Mm-hmm. Do you remember that one? Right, yeah. Which was kind of Love Child Part 2. Right, exactly. You could tell it was like, oh, yeah.

This is what the kids are into now. Now we're living in shame. But that's where we get the word love child, which they used to call a bastard. Yeah, that's right. Love child. Yeah, that's interesting. And never meant to be. And Nina Simone, who wasn't on that label, she had her own lane during that time and had some controversial things that, and even for her, were out there, you know. So she was like the leader in doing that type of thing, you know.

What was it? Mississippi thing. What was that song? That was one that was... Ooh, man. Why? I can't remember the title of the song, but...

But Marvin Gaye, back to your question, he was the one. The other one that, OK, I was looking at that Apple list. Did you see that of the 100 best albums? No. OK, they put out a list. And there's some of them. Like, Sgt. Pepper's not even on the list, which is ridiculous. Really? Not on the list? Here's who's not on the list that I could not understand, is Earth, Wind, and Fire. It's like, how can Earth, Wind, and Fire? Earth, Wind, and Fire had a sound all to their own.

And they had the one album, The Way of the World. That's the way of the world. There's so many great songs on there from Shining Star to Reasons. Oh, Shining Star, right. Oh, it was great. It was like this. OK, I'll have to give. And Stevie Wonder. Those were my three in the 70s. Stevie Wonder. Those were my three in the 70s. What a composer. Yeah. I mean, when he was cooking that tenure, I mean, there was nobody writing music like that. The best.

And it defied easy categorization. He was an original. It was in every genre. I mean-- And it's still listenable, Bill. That's the thing about great music. You can go back-- if you can listen to it and it still sounds fresh, as opposed to, oh yeah, that's what they listened to then. But if it still sounds, oh shit, this is good. I mean, all in love is fair. Yeah.

Streisand did it. And did it great, of course. But either version, it's like, that kind of songs, that's-- Good stuff is good stuff. That's Carson's-- that's good stuff. That is good stuff.

Now a word from Alpo. Exactly. Alpo, that's right. All right. Well, I probably should do my... Do you have anything to plug? You know... Do you have a new show? You always have a show. I'm happy to be here. I have a show called Reasonable Doubt. Oh, yeah, yeah. I'm producing with Kerry Washington. On Hulu? On Hulu. Yeah, yeah. Kerry and I are the exec producers of it. It was...

something that was loosely based on Sean Hawley, who was actually part of the OJ trial. She's a great lawyer here in Los Angeles, and it's loosely based on Sean. And we're in our second season. We just finished shooting it, and the second season premieres in August, and it's really a fun show. Rama Muhammad, I have to give her props. She's our showrunner. She's so good.

It's just so good. And it's just a great cast, too. And when you say executive producer, so you're kind of like godfathering. Yeah, kind of overseeing. Exactly. And I love doing that type of thing, especially, you know. Oh, I'll bet. This was not the heavy lifting, but it's. No, you earned it. Yeah, it's a heavy overseeing. You earned it. I knew I'd be an overseer at some point, though. See, you get that. Thank you very much, folks. Yeah.

I'm not going to be an overseer. Another thing you can say and I can't. There you go. Who says there's no reparation? No, exactly. I'm an overseer. Thank you very much. Thanks, universe. You did it right, universe. You did it right. Club. Amen. Appreciate it. I'm going to give you a kiss now. Just walk. Just walk. Club Red.

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