557: From a Place of Passion
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Hello and welcome to Connected episode 557. Today is Wednesday, June 18th, 2025. This episode is made possible by our sponsors, Squarespace and Terminal. My name is Stephen Hackett. I may have already said that. I don't remember. And I'm joined by Mr. Mike Hurley.

Hello, Stephen. It is my pleasure to introduce to this program the Ricky Benchman Federico Bottici. Hello, I'm here. It's so good to be called like that. Hi, I'm the Benchman. I changed my trophy today. I realized I hadn't done it, so it's now correctly reflecting to show Federico as the Benchman. Congratulations.

Thank you. You're really holding the show together. But it could have been much worse. I was so close. You were so close. I didn't realize this until I was tidying up after the show last week.

Currently, Federico, you are the keynote chairman, the annual chairman, and you won the annual flexes. I have the keynote flexes. So I am the last stand between us and the future where Federico reigns supreme.

Right, right. You are the European Union to my United States. You could also put it like that. Yes. You know, that's an interesting topic. You should find him. You should find him. 10% of Federico's revenue for the year. Hmm.

It's yours. That could be yours. I mean, this only means one thing that in September I have, or if Apple is going to do, I don't know, like another October event this year. I don't know, but I got to, if I can win both the keynote again and the keynote flexes, it'll be, what is it going to be that I get to choose my own name? You get to choose your own name. So everybody can look forward to the most boring flexi pics of all time coming your way later on this year. You got to be strategic.

Just the least passion possible coming your way. I mean, look at this chart. I do what I have to do. We're playing. Stephen, you use Notion in light mode? I use my Mac in light mode. I mean, the Mac in light mode is one thing, but I don't know. Notion is just too white. It's just too much. It's too bright. I really dislike dark mode in Mac apps.

I use dark mode all the time, wherever I can. Yeah, you know what I noticed with dark mode? That if I use dark mode too much, no matter the device that I'm using,

When I look, and like, especially if I'm reading text, right? So dark background, light or white text on top of it. When I look away, I get that thing in my eyes where I still see the text. You know, what's it called? Like, I don't know. Persistence? Visual aberration. Yeah.

Something like that. I have no idea. I have no idea. There's a residual vision. I don't know. I like that. It only happens with dark mode. I stare at a dark mode screen for too long when I'm reading. I look away. I see the text in front of my eyes still. Well, that's what you think. Maybe when you use it in light mode, your entire eyeballs are blown out. Right. I mean, I would prefer that. Okay.

Okay, well, I don't know. Yeah, it's like burning on your eyes, right? Yeah, yeah. That's what's happening. You got visual burning. That doesn't sound good, Federico. I think maybe your screen's too bright. I think you might have the brightness up too high. I don't know. I don't know. It only happens with the dark mode, though. Do you still do manual brightness adjustment?

No, no. Okay, because you used to do that, didn't you? I used to do that, but then their algorithm got pretty good, I think. Hey, we might have a problem. Okay. The Discord called foul on me calling Federico the annual Flexies champ. So I'm looking it up. You're making this sound like something so much more serious than it actually is, by the way. I think Mike is actually the annual Flexies winner. Oh.

This is why we don't just trust your manually updated Discord document for this information. Like, I use all of the websites. Yeah, that's probably better. Yeah. That's Mike. Well, I'm also saving us from... I'm actually the real person saving from tyranny. Right, right. Because I'm holding this down for the entire year. I could fall in the fall. It just means that my consolidation will happen in January 2026. I mean, it's...

I'm just saying, you know, this is me training for that moment, you know?

By the way, now I've just opened up the 2025 annual Rikis page, and it's a bloodbath. I'm just going to tell you that right now. We had a lot of hopes about what was going to happen this year, and a lot of it just doesn't look like it's happening. Where does one find such a page? Rikis.co or Rikis.net. They both have them as ongoing games. That's where you can go find this stuff. Like, for example, Apple announces a new standalone Siri app based on a new LLM. Ooh, rough. Yeah.

You know, any day now. It can still happen. The year is not over. I should be getting that point. A new iPhone SE is introduced with a new name. I never said that there were no points. Also, you have iPhone SE. Oh, potentially a new name. Yeah, you get that one.

Yeah. Yeah. We will litigate that at the end of the year. There are points scored. I'm just saying, like, there's a lot of stuff that isn't. But we're only halfway through. So, you know, we can still get that standalone Siri app. Let's not get distracted. Mac OS 16 includes a controversial change. That's a flexi for me. I'm sorry. There was no Mac OS 16. Rough. iOS 19 brings agreements with new AI partners. Yeah.

I don't know. There's no Mac OS 16, so... Okay. Yeah, you're off by 10 version numbers, my friend. Sucks to be you. Sorry about that. It's hard to keep up with time when you get older. Also, the system isn't shipped yet, so... I actually do have another one, so I sold it on 9to5Mac. The glove cursor has changed. You can't...

well the hand used to be a glove now it's just like a regular hand does this make you mad too you want to take make a crusade on this it's pretty mad but what i'm what i i have to i have to focus my energy on the finder icon okay um because i feel like i can make a real difference in the world have you and it well not yet but we haven't seen dev beta 2 soon soon but not yet not yet yeah

And our friend D. Griffin Jones had a blog post proposal for a new Finder icon that basically just flips it, which looks fine. It's pretty good. But yeah, the colors are still bad. Still makes me angry when I look at my beta Mac. Isn't this exactly what you would want, though? What D. Griffin made? Yeah, no, I think if you're going to do glass, that's the way to do it. Right. I'm just not convinced glass is the right thing for the Finder icon at all, but...

Well, it's going to have to happen, so you should just find the thing that you're excited about. I can make it really big in Notion. That's fun. Good for you. Good news. Okay. I got a new phone. I flip-flopped. Oh, good news. I am now using the Motorola Rocker E1. Listener Matt made my day. It came. It found its way across the border to me. I unboxed it.

Mike, you had suggested, and I think it's in a screenshot of Federico's article, that I do a video unboxing it. It doesn't boot up. I have some batteries on the way from eBay. So if they work and don't burn my office down, I do want to do something like showing the interface and getting it to sync with an old version of iTunes. So hopefully there's more to come from this. But at the very least, I wanted to show pictures of it on Instagram. Could you use this?

Would it even work? With an old version of iTunes. No, but like, could it connect to a network? No, no, surely not. Like, what is this, probably Edge or something? Like 2G? If it even, yeah, something even older, I don't even know. Would it connect to Wi-Fi, do you think? I don't think it had Wi-Fi.

Incredible. I'd be shocked if it had Wi-Fi. How'd you get the music on it? It must have had Wi-Fi. How'd you get the music? Oh, you load it on there. Duh. With a cable. Yeah, with a cable. Really, really long internet cable. You nailed it. You walk around the streets. There you go.

Speaking of music, Apple Music Replay is now a native part of the music app. It's no longer an embedded web view. So this is in iOS 26. I'm interested to see what the new experience will look like this year, if they actually are able to make it an embedded part of the app rather than a website. So you can go in and see stuff now. It's there. Your information is there. You can go through the year, and it shows kind of what the web interface looked like.

hoping that they can do something a little bit more interesting. They're not going to get to Spotify levels, like they're just not, because Spotify is so important to their business, Spotify wrapped. But maybe now it would be a little bit better now that it's built into the app. I don't know. But I thought it was fun to see. How do you find Apple Music Replay inside the app?

I couldn't tell you. I found it on 9to5Mac. I don't know where it lives, but apparently it lives somewhere. Ryan has a screenshot of it. Yeah, it looks like following a link to the web will open replay. Sometimes in Apple Music, I get recommended to look at the playlist that it makes. Maybe it's there instead. Maybe that kind of section will take you there.

Yeah, it looks more native than before, that's for sure. Yeah, rather than... For a while, it was just a web view. Then they embedded the web view inside of the music app. Yeah. And now it's actually just music UI. Yeah, it's kind of nice. It's kind of nice. Can it tell me how much music I listen to on my Motorola phone?

That's all I want to know. Probably. Probably. As long as you're... I wonder if that... No, because it won't connect to a network. I was going to say, you could probably transfer some music and then scrabble the music from the rocker. I need to set up a thing that listens to the music coming out of the tiny headphones. Yes. And records it. Yes. And scrabbles it. Yeah. Every damn scrabble-in. Damn scrabble-in, scrabble-in, scrabble-in. Yeah.

Federico, you have a bold claim. Okay. Yes, I do. I'm quoting you to yourself. Kudos to the Reminders team for shipping my favorite control ever in iOS 26's Control Center. What is this? This is awesome.

So this is a new control in the iOS 26 Control Center. I think it's part of the new visual snippets things for app intents, where apps can basically now present these interactive snippets that allow you to perform actions.

with interactivity from the snippet without launching an app with more interactivity than you had before. So like, for example, here, you press a button in Control Center and it opens this mini reminders UI

that lets you enter a reminder, supports natural language, lets you switch between lists, lets you assign a location, a date, or a flag. And so it's like, it is literally like a mini reminders interface activated from a control so that you stay in control center, but you get a whole bunch of features from reminders. And I think it's part of that framework, which

I saw some speculation and I think it makes a lot of sense. That framework, the snippets for app intents, obviously something that Apple was going to ship for the HomePod with the screen, right? This is exactly what you would imagine from like, you do get some interaction, but it's miniaturized, right?

but it still shows you the actual UI from the app that you are invoking, right? And so it's this middle ground. I think it's interesting because these snippets are this middle ground between shortcuts and widgets in a way that like these snippets, for example...

are more interactive than widgets. Because widgets on the home screen, for example, and I mean, you know, Stephen, they cannot bring up the keyboard, for example, to let you type something. These things can. And so I think it's interesting that we're now at a point where Apple has two things that kind of, both of them look like widgets, but

One of them is officially called the widget. The other looks like it, but it's more powerful. So I don't know. It's fascinating. I hadn't heard of this. I just found a session video design in interactive snippets. So you can essentially make little components of apps that live... Yes. What? Like you bring up in shortcuts or from control center and stuff like that? Yes. In theory... That is correct. I could have a widget that I tap the button and it would launch one of these and I could do a thing? Yes. Yeah, I think so. Yes.

Yes, that is correct. Just let me confirm and see if I open shortcuts. Will I find the same thing?

I can trigger it from the action button. I'll give you that. Yeah, so it's a control, right? It doesn't appear in shortcuts. In shortcuts, you still have the same old regular add reminder action. But this control, you can add it to control center or you can tie it to the action button and it'll bring up this UI, which is... Because what I'm wanting is like, can Todoist do this essentially, right? It's what I want. I think they can, yeah.

That'd be very nice. Very nice. What I would like to see, because Reminders itself didn't get a ton this year, that's, I think, interesting. It would be great if this was just like the UI inside Reminders, which I don't think it is. My main complaint with Reminders is still there's a lot of tapping. It's like, just put this text box in there.

Some of it is there. There are some natural language reminders, but it's not open-ended like maybe this seems to be. Big news.

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That's squarespace.com slash connected and the offer code connected to get 10% off your first purchase and to show your support for this, your favorite podcast. Our thanks to Squarespace for their support of Connected and all of Relay. Big news. Federico wrote an amazing article. Yes. But it wasn't just an amazing article. It was also an interview with Craig Federighi.

I love this so much. I described it as what is essentially a profile of both an operating system and a person. It's like, it's really good. Federico, you did such a good job, man. Oh my God. You should be so proud of yourself. Thank you. That was actually my idea, which was kind of risky, but I thought, you know, whatever, I'm going for it. So I'm glad you picked up on that. Yeah. It's so good.

people need to read it like it because it's it's this feels like one of those classic federico things where it's a story like you're telling us the story um and so it's long but it's good and there's like history which is important for thinking about it's it's essentially the the story is about ipad multitasking but also like how did we get here um and craig

Craig Federighi is very open, actually, about how did we get here? I'm very thankful that he did this with you. I think he does a good job of explaining things. And I think one of the biggest takeaways I have is in a lot of instances, they are tending to do the thing you hope they're doing, right? Which is like,

They are thinking about the Mac, but they're trying to do better, even if they don't succeed, and then eventually realize, let's just do the thing that we should be doing in the first place. I just think it's really good. People should go read it. It's awesome. And the imagery is really nice, too. It's very meditative, some of the GIFs and stuff that's in there.

Yeah, I am very grateful that I was able to work on this. It was a lot of work last week and it was a lot of coordination, as you can expect, you know, between me and Apple PR and sort of like working on these things is very complicated in terms of like the bureaucracy of it, if anything. But the aspect I think that I'm most happy about is that this was probably

essentially pitched to me as, hey, do you want to have, like, I believe they literally said, do you want to have an in-depth philosophical conversation of yours with Craig about the iPad? And I was like, yeah, obviously. And I had, you know,

um kudos to apple pr in the sense that that i had total creative freedom in terms of what i wanted to ask i i was concerned that you know some of the questions like you know let's talk about how people have criticized the ipad over the years i thought oh maybe you know maybe they're gonna skip on that but no it was totally fine and so it was really important for me to be able to to to

Just choose whatever I wanted to ask and, you know, having plenty of time to really go in depth on certain topics. And yeah, it was a lot of work. It was a lot of briefings and a lot of things to coordinate, but came together quite nicely, I think. Saying that about the criticism, I think one of the things that we like about Craig Federighi is that he...

He is like us, right? Where like he is both very nerdy, but also I think kind of wears his heart on his sleeve a little bit. And I think that's kind of why our audience like is always warm to him. Yeah. Because it's just a moment where you ask him about the criticism. And like at first he says like bafflement.

is how he feels and people said it like the apple don't care about the ipad and then it says he's like disappointed because they really do but then kind of comes around to being like but i understand why people care it's like such a real answer where like at first he is defensive yes but then opens up and it's like yeah but i get it at the same time and i just i just find that so humanizing that is exactly how it went uh uh when we were doing the interview like it it

And that's sort of what I was hoping that I would get, like to get to see, like, I knew I was going to see the PR persona, but I also kind of wanted to see the man who works at Apple, if possible. Because like at the end of the day, like, and obviously like the way that I phrase my questions, like,

I kept insisting on this idea like look I get it that you describe things a certain way but I also know that like your people working at Apple and like it's not like these things sort of spring into existence on their own like you're making them in a certain way and why are you making them in a certain way and so I'm glad that I got to see a lot of glimpses of that sort of like personal honesty about the answers and

And yes, it's very, very nerdy, very sort of detail-oriented. I don't remember. It's probably not in the story. There was a quote about when we were talking about the beginnings of the iPad, when everything was in full screen. He went on this tangent about like, oh, because on old Mac OS...

and Stephen correct me correct Craig I guess if he's wrong but it went on this tangent about like the only element that was animating at 60 hertz on the original Macintosh was the cursor and everything else could kind of take an arbitrarily long amount of time to execute but it was really important that the cursor was moving at 60 hertz and everything else was kind of slow and it went on this tangent for like

two minutes. And I thought, you know, that's probably something I'm going to say before the show rather than mention. That's important though, right? In the context, like there's a reason he's bringing that up. And like, and I think I'd heard this before,

I think I heard Neil Apatow say that he'd been told it in a briefing and you go into detail about it in your story, which is one of the reasons, correct me if I'm wrong, I'm summarizing you now, but one of the reasons that Apple was nervous about windowing is there's nothing to indicate on the iPad that things are still running properly.

Yeah. Like if app on the Mac, if apps lock up, you can just move the cursor and it indicates to you that the system is still alive and that this is something that's been very important to them. And it's why they struggled the way that they did and is now how they've ended up with this system where like,

only the app that is... There's something going on about prioritization, right? About the way that the apps are working. But they had to kind of get over this idea that there is nothing in...

an iPadOS that can indicate to you that the system is alive if the app that you're using has frozen. But they've just kind of had to let it go because they've decided to go in this route. Now, of course, if you have a trackpad attached, you'll get this. But if you're just touching, you wouldn't know. But it seems like they kind of had to just get over this in the end.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. I think one thing that really struck me in reading this, and it's something we've talked about, but honestly, it's not something I think about a lot, is that Apple really has two main users of iPads, right? They've got people like you or Chris Lawley or Jason Snell who...

are using their iPad as a daily computer for work, right? It is a modular computer to your great piece years ago that they're using with accessories. They're hooking up to a display. They're using it as I use my Macintosh. But you also have people sometimes buying the exact same device who are very comfortable with the one app device

at a time model and they choose an iPad to avoid the complexity of a Mac or a PC, right? To them, the strength is that they can use it quote like a big iPhone. And what's, what's so interesting to me is you see Craig and Apple through this interview wrestling with that. Like how do we push the bar down?

like further and forward while also maintaining and preserving what so many people truly value about their iPad, right? Like,

My dad uses an iPad because it's not a computer to get rid of the complexities he had when using a traditional desktop operating system. That's an interesting way of putting it. Because obviously I think about the idea of people using iPads simply, but not really so much of like, this is the computer that is not getting on my nerves. It's not too much and in my face. It's actually an escape hatch for some people.

That's interesting. Yeah, that was one of the key points of the conversation. Like how do you, like the idea of balance, right? How do you balance? Like you have this computer, right?

that I think is the most difficult to design for that you have. Because on the iPhone, I mean, it's a known quantity, right? So it's a phone, you use one app at a time, everybody knows how to use a phone. You have a Mac, and people buy a Mac, and they know they're going to have Windows, they're going to have a file manager, they're going to have a desktop. And then you have this iPad, which is sort of somewhere in the middle, that is going to be used by kids and grandparents and grandparents.

parents and teachers, but also people like me and other creative professionals who are going to do weird things on it. And like, how do you balance that? And the conversation was like, essentially, we... It was Craig saying, we thought we...

We wanted to progressively add complexity to the iPad without ever sort of removing the default of you can use one app at a time and it's going to be fine. They tried with SplitView and then they updated SplitView and then they tried with Stage Manager. And the thing that I got out of that conversation about Stage Manager is that they thought that

That was going to be enough for some people, but the feedback they got clearly said, look, the people who want to have windowing and multitasking really want to have all the control that they can possibly have. And so they realized, he didn't say this, but my understanding is that they've essentially been working on this windowing system for decades.

for more than a year at this point. I would say a year and a half. That was just my personal interpretation. Nothing that they officially said. But they've been working on this thing for a long time to essentially say, well, look, we're just going to

come up with a brand new windowing engine. It's going to allow, essentially, like they didn't say unlimited windows, but more than 10 windows on an M4. It's going to work on lower-end iPads, including the iPad Mini. And we're just going to give people all the controls that they want without removing, of course, the default experience. And so that idea of balancing between the very two different types of users that they have.

Which is not an easy task. I don't work at Apple, but I can imagine it's not an easy task to have a product that is used by two completely different audiences. It's interesting how they have taken this moment as a way to actually simplify the iPad further, right? Where they've removed split view and slide over. They've actually decided, oh, we're going to make it

even simpler for people unless they want to do windowing that would indicate to me that people get lost in ipad os right they accidentally use slide over or accidentally have split view and so they've taken this as a moment to be like if you want to do windowing of any kind use this new system and you'll figure it out otherwise it's just one app at a time

I find that interesting that they've done that. Obviously, there are going to be a subset of people that will be upset about this, but I actually think that it's an easier system to learn than the old system. I think so. Making a split-screen pair now is so much simpler and easier to explain

than it was before hit that button at the top choose this side or choose that side or you can just drag the icon like you always used to all the way to the edge and it will spring rather than this like yeah really weird whereas oh you've just entered jiggle mode oh now you've dragged it to the desktop now how the like it was a nightmare and it's now much more achievable than it was before and it's just surprised me that they did that but i'm i am actually pleased they've done it yeah

You mentioned how much time it took them to do the window management. You write in here that it coordinates CPU, NAND, FLAS, GPU, and battery to optimize all of that stuff. This was not as simple as going to the repo in macOS and be like, let me copy this code and paste it over here.

And when you use it, yes, there are similarities. Like one thing I'm so glad they brought over was the tiling system that was introduced in Mac OS last year or two years ago. And yes, if you're re-implementing this on the iPad, you should definitely have that. And actually you can use those with the same shortcuts and kind of build your own split screen view, which is really cool.

But I mean, you, you obviously have used the Mac, you've used this beta. Like, do you think people who understand one will kind of grok the other one pretty quickly? Oh, I think so. I mean, it's, it's very, very similar. Uh, uh, one of, one of, one of the things that, um, and especially like, it's not just similar from, from the perspective of, oh, there's the traffic light indicators. There's a menu bar. Um, yeah.

And keyboard shortcuts are the same. But like now, especially with the redesign, a lot of the apps are actually very similar between Mac OS and iPad OS. And I saw a friend of the show, Steve Trattonsmith, post an interesting challenge saying,

on Mastodon today, that it would be interesting to put up side by side Mac OS and iPad OS on an external display and capture the differences between some of the apps, especially now that the window style is essentially the same between the iPad and the Mac. So I definitely do think that now more than ever, if you're moving across a Mac and an iPad,

I think it's going to be easier than before from the perspective of multitasking. Like you got the tiling, you got the split view, or you got the fluid resizing. You got stage manager that now works the same way, right? So the windowing is unlimited. The positioning is unlimited. It's just stage manager acts as a, you know, to put you, to let you focus on specific workspaces, exactly like on the Mac, right?

Keyboard shortcuts are the same. The menu bar is right there at the top. Just some minor visual differences in how, for example, the traffic light buttons are displayed. On macOS, they're always shown. On the iPad, you kind of need to go on hover to make them interactive, which is something that I personally would like to see as a setting. Like, let me always see the fully expanded traffic light buttons. But overall, yeah, I think it's...

Very, very similar at this point. Which is great for even a user like me, where I feel...

so much more natural using this version of windowing on the iPad because I don't feel like I'm having to like get used to a second thing. I just very easily transition from my Mac to my iPad back again now. Like, and I'm, man, I'm loving it. I love this. They've just, they just crushed it. Like it's perfect. I haven't found something that I dislike about it. The one thing I disliked, you fixed it for me. Just use stage manager. It's like, oh, it's exactly what I want. Yeah.

It's like, it's so funny that I have used Stage Manager on the Mac since it came out, but I never used it on the iPad because I hated it. And it was... Should have been the same system, now is the same system. Yeah. It's incredibly good. Like, it's unbelievable how good a job they have done with iPadOS 26. Like, it is...

We always have these things at WWDC. We mention it every year, right? Where it's like you see a thing and you're like, wow, that looks amazing. And then you use it and you're like, oh, it's constrained in all these ways. Like Federico, you just had one, right? One of the shortcut actions for sending something out to chat GPT. It's like an old version of the mod, right? It's not the current version. So you always have these things, but I haven't found that with the windowing system. It's as good as I want it to be. In fact, it's better. It's good. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And I...

Like in the story, I wanted to focus on iPad multitasking. I didn't even get to touch the stuff like the local audio capture, the background tasks, the improvements to files. Like there's actually a lot.

that they're doing here. And just this realization, I think it's very welcome to hear an executive say, we realized that our power users want to have as much control as they can have it, and we're going to give it to them, and we're not going to get in the way. Like, that is refreshing to hear, you know, after all these years of these sort of half steps,

with iPadOS. It's just nice to... It's just nice. I haven't seen any complaints about iPadOS, really. And it's been over 10 days after the keynote, almost. And everybody's just like, yeah, they did it. Good job. Which is strange, I gotta say, as a reaction. I'm not used to it. Especially for iPadOS. Especially for iPadOS. I'm not used to it. I have a semi-related question.

Okay. I mean, I'm sure the preparation that went into this was intense, right? You're trying to figure out what you're going to ask. You have limited time. How do you prioritize them? I'm sure you were already thinking about the article and I'll echo what Mike said. Using the history of iPadOS changes as the backbone for the interview is just next level good. Did you, in all of that, happen to ask him about the Finder icon?

aha why yes sir in fact i did uh let me let me pull up yes let me pull up my transcript uh which i'm not supposed to share a full-on transcript but this is just a small quote where are you i did mention you as a friend so we were talking about the differences between um

Mac users and iPad users, right? And at some point I said, you mentioned Mac users who are obviously very passionate. And I said, I have a friend of mine. I have to mention this because otherwise he will be upset with me. He's very annoyed by the finder icon having the colors flipped. And Federico said, uh-huh, I've been told about that. Yeah. So there you go. Joe! Joe, he did it!

Wow, that's wild. It got to him. Somebody felt it was important that they had to share that piece of information. Oh, you should know about this. Within a day or two,

Of my writing. Yeah, because this was on Wednesday morning, this interview. Oh, that's so good. Oh, man. I love you. It got to the top. Now, I'm not sure the conversation moved on after that. I can share some other tidbits from the interview for the show. It's fine. For example, when we moved on the topic of criticism, right? I sort of started like...

I tried to contextualize a lot of my questions because I really wanted to have good answers instead of the yes and no PR answer. And so I started talking about the journey of iPadOS, the ups and downs over the years. And I said, of course, you've received criticisms over the years, right? And he looks at me and says, from at least one person in this room. Yeah.

Do you see the blogger in the room with you? Or does he turn to a specific PR person and point at them and be like, you. He's like, Jimmy, you're the problem. And everybody in the room kind of started laughing. And I said, I believe something along the lines of, for me, it always comes from a place of passion. And he chuckled and said, I tell myself that.

That's fantastic. I mean, I know if he said, if I'm in your shoes, I would feel pretty embarrassed. Me? Embarrassed? Oh, no. I said, if it's me in your shoes, I know my face would go red in that moment. Oh, no, no, no. I went along with it. Like, I started laughing. I was like, yeah, I criticized you. I'll make a joke about it, but I would feel a bit awkward, I think.

No, no, it was lovely. It was actually really nice. I mean, they are fully... Here's the thing that I got like big picture outside of this interview from, you know, based on other folks at Apple that I talked to. Like they are... And I keep repeating this over and over. And I think I was...

talking about this last week with someone. They read our stuff and listen to our stuff more than we usually think they do, is my impression. And my sense is that they really do have some of those

fights about very specific things. Like, should you be able to, I don't know, have a better context menu in the files app? Like, very specific stuff. I do think that they read everything, they listen to everything, which is kind of concerning. And obviously, we try not to think about that stuff because our audience is not Apple. Our audience is our listeners and our readers. That's right.

And if you think about that too much, like, oh, is there a PR person listening to this? Then you start having a natural conversation. You start second guessing yourself. Yeah, exactly. So you shouldn't do that. I love Vision Pro. But they do. Yes, yes. Favorite computer. I use it every day. Sorry. I love the device. I can't wait to do it.

But I think there's a way to criticize Apple. That is to go on your blog or to go on your podcast and just run down the list of really popular arguments. Craig Federighi should be fired. Tim Cook should be fired. Everything sucks. This sucks. It used to be better when Steve Jobs was alive. There's a way to do that, right? And there's a way to say...

I like these things about this product. I don't like these things about this product. You're a giant corporation. Here's my feedback. I hope you can make it better. Right? And the first way...

gets you in the door with your audience a lot more quickly because everybody loves a creator who's fired up and, and, you know, I don't know, curses on, on, on video or everybody loves drama. Drama is like, uh, you know, it's, it's, it's, it's the perfect bait for a lot of people. Uh,

And whereas the nuance or just not taking any sort of extremist position, I don't know, it doesn't pay well a lot of the time. But my sense is that the things that we've been saying on Connected, the things that Jason has been writing on Six Colors, the things that Chris Lawley has been saying in his videos, they are

taken on board as actually useful criticism. And that was sort of my question. Like, how do you handle...

the criticism that maybe takes you somewhere or lets you see things in a different perspective versus how do you handle the criticism that you maybe are are slightly upset about because you don't think it's fair um i don't know that was a good conversation and i'm glad i got to ask that question specifically toward the end yeah i did just want to before we move on just to touch on what you're talking about there because i think it's really interesting as a point of view like

It is something that I try to remember. Like having in a previous life worked in a very, very large corporation for like 10 years, that there are things that everybody would like to do, but there are reasons outside of your control that you can't do them. It's allocation of people,

global business needs rather than the local business needs. And that can be for Apple, right? You might want to do something on the iPad, but how does it fit in with the overall ecosystem? And if you can't stretch that out, you can't do it here, that kind of stuff. And they then still have to position to the world that the thing that they're doing is the best possible thing because you can't say...

here, buy this. It's not what we would have shipped ideally, but like, could you just do it? Uh, and so you have to, like, there is like a massaging of the message, even though there is still a desire to maybe want to make things better. And it's the thing that I try and remember. And it's like, it is actually one of the reasons why the stuff that came out of the discovery and the Epic loss who upset me in the way that it did, because you could see how the conversations inside of the company were pushing them in a bad direction, not just in a good direction. Right. Um,

But I do, like you're saying, Federico, it's like, I think it is helpful to try and keep in mind that there are a group of people who are trying to push things forward so you don't get too...

animated at times, but similarly balance that with like, yeah, but that isn't my responsibility though. Yeah. Right. As a, as a, however you call yourself, journalist, commentator, pundit. Yeah, no, it's, it's not my responsibility to look out for them, but it's helpful to keep perspective. No, I just think personally that, that there's a way to, to, to have a conversation about computers and,

And there's a way to have it with a little more class. Yeah. That's just my point of view. I agree. And I mean, I went back before doing this interview. I was obviously, as you can imagine, like I was very nervous. I was very kind of at some point I was very self-conscious about the story that I published last year about

iPadOS. But I went back and read it. I was like, you know what? I actually stand by all of this. Aside from what they announced, obviously, on the Monday. But this story, I'm not offending anybody. I'm just saying that things are in a poor state. And at the time, it was true. And that was a harsh story. But I don't know.

I guess, you know, between... I think... I really do think that the feedback that they get from people serves a purpose at some point, right? And I don't think these things happen in a vacuum. I don't think Frederici wakes up one day and says...

Guys, we need to do windowing, right? I don't think it's like that. I think it's a combination of obviously the hardware that they have, the engineers that they have, but also the feedback that they got from people. And so, yeah, it's not our job to make sure, oh, let's not offend anybody there because we got to look out for, hug the engineers. I'm not anybody's babysitter at Apple, but...

but you can still do things in a certain more classy, more constructive way. And I think it's really cool that you're now like, it is publicly shown that you are part of the feedback loop. And I think that's amazing. I'm very proud of you. Thank you. Thank you. But yeah.

That's not... I'm just glad I got to do this, you know, because I interviewed Federighi twice, but it was always for the podcast. And just... This was a different muscle to flex for me, like to work on this kind of story. I don't usually do this kind of story. Yeah. I'm happy that this wasn't a podcast, actually. Yeah, me too. Me too. At first, I was like, oh, I want to hear it. And of course, I want to hear it, but...

It wouldn't have allowed you to do what you did in the way that you did it. And so like, I'm actually happy that you got to do something a little bit different. And the questions that you ask can be different if it's not a podcast, I think, because it's like easier for them to say like, oh, we can't talk about that or whatever, you know? So yeah, very cool. This episode of Connected is brought to you by Terminal. If you've ever opened your phone to do something simple, like check the weather and then found yourself doom scrolling 10 minutes later, there's a single purpose device that you're going to want to check out.

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Somebody else realized that blogging is good. Watch out, boys. The enthusiast himself. Yep. Michael. Here I am. Jay Hurley. What's up? What are you doing? It's not DJ. Okay, so a bunch of things happened kind of all at the same time. I came to a realization a little while ago that I don't have a creative project that's just my own.

Like I work with people in all areas of my life, which is my preferred way of working, right? Like I prefer to work with people. It's why I've formed my creative endeavors the way that they have. But at the same time, it's also interesting

as like an exercise to not have to convince someone or not have to work with someone on their timeframe as well as your own. So I was thinking about that and like, you know, remembering what it was like to do things on my own. And like when I used to do interviews and stuff like that and kind of have that as like a thing that I did when I started doing podcasting and then kind of decided, no, I much prefer to work with people, which is the case.

But I was also thinking about what would it be like to do something on my own again, to have something that's fully my own. It's detached from everybody else that I work with. If I did a solo relay podcast, it's still a relay podcast. There's still other people involved in it. And I was like, what would that be? What would that look like? And I don't know what it was that...

exactly drew me down the road of I should start a blog. But I ended up in I should start a blog. And I thought about it for a bit and was noodling the idea around. And then I started what I knew I wasn't going to do was be like, hey, everyone, I want to start a blog. Here's my first blog post.

Because that quickly turns into, and there was never another blog post. Right. You come back and say, I'm back. I'm doubling down. Right. We've all seen those posts. Yes. Yes.

Yes. And so I decided I would start writing and I started writing some stuff that didn't find its way to the blog. And then I started the blog and started writing. And I think maybe after a week, my original plan was to actually launch this after WWDC. But then I YOLOed it one day and just did it instead. And this is also like...

happened at like a good time for me in a couple of ways where most of the stuff that I have written so far, I am writing when I am holding a sleeping baby, when I am essentially trapped underneath a child. And so I, I, I am restricted in the things that I can do in that time. And it's actually turned out to be nice, quiet time when I can be creative. And the majority of stuff that I've written has just been on my iPhone for that reason. Um,

The other thing that I realized, I was talking to Jason Snow about this and we were going backwards and forwards about it. And like I came to the realization that this is also a consequence of me taking social media off my iPhone. Yes. Because I am sitting there otherwise bored, right? Like I've got this time on my hands, which can in the evening can be like two hours that I'm just like,

there and like I don't want to move and can't move because you don't want to sleep the way awake the sleeping baby and so I would otherwise just be scrolling you know just like scrolling and scrolling and scrolling and this is something that I'm doing that is more outwardly creative rather than like just consuming of content however I've always wanted to be a blogger I've wanted to be a blogger for like 15 years

In fact, before I was podcasting, I tried blogging. I actually had a website once called applefanboy.com. That was before I knew any of you, right? That has gone away a long time ago.

One thing that I remember that I got right on that blog is a very strange thing that I thought was cool that I realized it but nobody else did, which was I once was able to predict that Apple was going to do an event of some kind based on the fact that the iTunes Music Store did not update with the daily releases.

Wow. Of weekly releases. That's like hacker level. That's German. That's German stuff. They used to refresh the music store, I think on a Tuesday or something. Yes, yes, that is correct. Yes. And a Tuesday roll around and nothing happened.

And I was like, the last time this happened was because they were announcing an iPod or something. And then they did, I don't remember what it was, but then the next day, the Wednesday, they actually had an announcement. So they put it on the iTunes Music Store. So they couldn't update, because of web objects, I guess, they couldn't update the store. Like their stuff is still in search, but they couldn't update the store main page.

And I wrote it up. I was like, something's going to happen. And I remember that I sent it to people. Federico, I may send it to you. Who could tell? You know, I like emailed it to people like tip lines and stuff like, look what I found out. Like no one cared because ultimately it wasn't that interesting anyway. I feel like that would get more play today. I feel like that's the thing that people do today more than they were doing then.

because the media wasn't so fast. The rumor sites weren't so quick that there was a genuine value in being able to be like, something is going to happen tomorrow. It wasn't, you know. Anyway, so I always wanted to blog, but I find editing written work to be one of the most boring things a human being can do.

Like, rereading over and over and over again to find errors, I find so tedious. And even rereading for content is fine, but for finding errors is terrible, plus I'm not very good at finding them. My grammar's bad, my punctuation's bad, most of the time my spelling is bad. This is just a thing I know about myself.

It's who I am, but it means what I don't want to do is just like publish my raw text for the world. Sure. You know what's coming next. This is what AI is good at. AI, baby. The LLMs are really good at dealing with text and it's very doable with a lot of models to be able to get them to proofread stuff for you, including the inbuilt Apple intelligence models without actually changing your text. And it's just making suggestions and

I am very happy with it, with this as a system, because it takes away nervousness from me of being, of looking silly online, which if I published the text as it was,

I don't think I would look very smart a lot of the time. Stephen, you see my raw writing a lot more than anyone, I think. Yeah. There are a lot of errors, right? Like, it's a thing. It's how I am. It's how I write. It could be timed up. But look, you know. Exactly. So the AI does it. Either the AI does it or Stephen does it. And I'm not going to send him all my drafts. Thank you. I can't do that. So I'm getting the AI to do it. And yeah, I...

I'm very pleased with it. I'm enjoying it. And I've been...

the amount of good like positive feedback that i've gotten from people has been very heartwarming people seem excited about it and they're like they're happy that i'm doing it and and that makes me happy too because it's like you know you publish things for people yeah um and so and people seem to like it i said about that i don't have any analytics on the website and that's that's purposeful i don't want to know how many people are reading and it's like that's not helpful to me right now um

I don't think that that would be good or bad, so I've decided just not to do it. I know that what I want... I wanted to be able to have these as...

like a web site and also email so i'm using ghost which was also an opportunity for me to like try out these tools that people use now like i was just like intrigued like what is that like yeah um i'll tell you it's not a very user-friendly experience oh boy interesting i have so many problems with the ghost operations like such a way that i do not find to be very good um like i

the way that it wants you to add images to every post but also has terrible tools for dealing with images like it's like it's not a very good system there's a bunch of things that i would tweak about it my understanding from talking to people that also use it is like you can fix a lot of this by having a custom theme and it's like so maybe in my future one day i would do that similarly i don't have any branding like there's no logo or anything yet this is just

I'm not getting ahead of myself on this. It's like, I just want to start writing and then over time we'll find a place of it. But I should say the only stats that I know is how many people sign up for email because Ghost has that. And that's what they tell you. But they don't have any inbuilt analytics, at least not that I found. And I'm happier with that right now. So yeah. And yeah, so that's where I am. I'm writing. I'm blogging now. I love that you're doing it.

I figured you would because you're a blogger. It's a long time coming. Yeah. Maybe. So the name, the enthusiast, right? It's because it's what I see myself as. I am

In all of the shows that I do, I do not consider myself as the most knowledgeable person in those shows. That is not a way of putting myself down. I think it is just factual. Look at the Pen Athlete. I don't know as much about pens as Brad. Look at Upgrade. I don't know as much about... I've not been around... The amount of experience Jason Snell has, and it's similarly for both of you two. But

I think I'm good at what I do because I care deeply about the things that I like. And so I consider myself to be very enthusiastic about them. It is also a dig at the way that people talk about people like me. Right. And I actually own enthusiast.website.

and enthusiast.blog. I bought those domains and I will probably use those because I actually think they're better URLs than the... I don't like the double E in the enthusiast. Yeah, it's like the enthusiast. Yeah, I don't like it. So at some point I will probably change the main URL but I don't even know if that would be a disaster now. It probably would be and I shouldn't do that but who knows. We'll find out as we go. Hey, it's no fork bomber. You're above that. That's true. But...

because I've found in the past that like people who didn't take the traditional route to be in New York based publishing look down on people like us and have done so in many written forms I have a I have an Apple note which is like a blog post I'd like to write and this is one of them that at some point I will write of like

chronicling the way... Maybe. I might write it. I'm not sure. But I have some screenshots of people using the word enthusiast in a derogatory way. But I do... I think that it's a phrase that people should be proud of. I think you should be proud to be an enthusiast and that you care and that you...

That you're not a journalist, but you care so much and you have things to say that people want to listen to them and that you're able to build a what is now 15 year career.

on the fact that you just really like the computers. And that's all it is. And I think that's something to be proud of. I know why, Federico, I know why you found it as a put-down. I know why Chase found it as a put-down when it happened to 9to5.

I get why people would feel that way. I mean, for you in your one specifically, they were also just not even naming the website, which was worse. They called you like an enthusiast website, right? Instead of even referencing Mac stories. Was that like the Wall Street Journal or something? No, it was All Things D. All Things D. That's it. Yeah, which...

Was that part of the Wall Street Journal at one point? It was part of the Wall Street Journal at one point, yes. Okay. But yeah, I think that it's something to be proud of. And so that's why I'm building my new little home on the internet around it. You could really expand this brand, right?

please you could have a parenting blog at enthusiast.dad that's 18 okay oh so this is like a media empire if you want to help other people become enthusiast enthusiast.guru this is 45 yeah i mean i hope that the website does make people so that's what i i'm also my plan for this is block used to be good vibes like that's the plan for this um

I have enough outlets to talk about everything. I don't need to talk about everything there. Sure. Right? So, like, for example, I don't think I would have posted anything about the Epic lawsuit on my website if it was running then. Mm-hmm. Because it's just not what I want to put there. I will talk about that on this show. I'll talk about it on Upgrade. I don't need a third place to talk about the same stuff, right? Like, I wouldn't be able to come up with something unique that I wouldn't have used in one of these two spots, right? Yeah.

So my plan is like I, and it's not just going to be talking about Apple. Like I want to talk about all of the things that I like. It's WWDC season right now. So it's been very easy to just focus on that. It's also been super helpful for me that this is a good WWDC. Like great. So it's helping me kind of find my rhythm, but I'm excited about it. I'm happy to have it as a thing that I'm doing. And I want to thank you both for the public and private support

uh, encouragement that you give me. Yeah, of course. No, I think it's great for, for lots of reasons. We spoke about this a couple of years ago now, maybe where, you know, after Twitter broke up and it's like all this stuff is scattered. And I said this on backstage when we were talking about this, like I still believe short form text based social media is probably a bad idea. But what it, what that,

Period of time did for me was it changed the way that I think about five, 12 pixels. Like, yes, I still, you know, cover Apple news and like, you know, weird service program for M2 Mac mini power supplies. Right. Like I'm still going to do that stuff, but also things like the going back to the finder icon again, like,

There is a period of time. And in fact, I did it live during WC. I put a massive, and I was like, Oh no, what do they do to this poor finder icon? But there was a time where like, I would have, that thing would have been a tweet, right? It'd be like, here's three finder icons over the years. And yeah,

This one is bad and they should fix it. And it would have gotten some traction, right? Like this did on social media after I posted the blog post, but it would have done nothing in terms of views compared to what the blog post has done. And more importantly to me, it's part of something that I own and control and Twitter going away. I think for a lot of people, not just us, like taught us like there's value and owning where you put your stuff and

And now you have that, right? And even if ghosts were to go away, you can export it, right? Or you end up like me and Federico with almost two decades of stuff in WordPress.

What I knew is I didn't want to use WordPress. My starting point was not that. I mean, realistically, what I wanted was Substack, but I don't want to use Substack. But like, it was, I wanted something, what is like that? And that was when I found Ghost. Yeah, no, you made a good choice there, I think, having not used it. But yeah.

And so I'm glad that you started this out of at least partially that mindset. Like I have a single place I can put things and they can be short or long or serious or funny or whatever it is. And then you can share those from there. And I still, a couple of years into that sort of,

rethinking about my own site still really value that idea. And I think you're going to find that to be important. Yeah, I'm sharing more. I'm sharing things that I would have wanted to share on social media and didn't, like just decided not to. Because writing a blog post and sharing the link...

is better for me than sharing the social media post and getting the replies yeah like i just find that to be a better loop um sure and uh the feedback that i have had about the things that i have written has been more considered because people are actually like deciding to go read it rather than just like react to it yeah it's hard it's much harder to dunk on a blog post

Yeah. Yeah. Although I'm sure at some point I'll get the things where people react to what they think the blog post is about. Yes. Having not read it. I know that this is a thing that you will, we will talk about privately sometimes, but I'm happy to, this is, I'm, thank you for giving me the space to talk about on the show today. I,

And I want to keep it up. And I have lots of ways that I think I could. At some point, I want to look into dictation because I think at a certain point, it might be faster for me to dictate. I just want to see what that's like too. There are things that I can try out now. I'm using Ulysses, by the way, to write everything. I was getting ready to ask you.

Yeah, it's really nice and it works well with Ghost. The reason I started using it is because you can publish directly to Ghost from Ulysses. Right. But it turns out if you do that, because Ghost is weird, things can get a bit odd. So what I actually end up... Oh, sorry. What the real reason is, so Ghost, you have email and this is a good example of things that are weird about Ghost, right? Yeah.

When you publish on the Ghost website, like on their kind of web app, you kind of press publish and it's like, hey, we're going to send this to, we're going to put this on the website, we're going to send this to your email subscribers, like, do you want to confirm? So they give you the opportunity to read it back over again if you want to. And you press confirm and it sends to the email and publishes it on the website.

If you publish via an app, even though it uses the API, the publishing system that Ghosts are provided to third parties, it will not send the email. Oh. And so what you have to do is you publish your website, you then log into Ghosts, you duplicate the post and send it as email only. What? No, I'm not going to do that. So I think because Ulysses know this is a problem, they actually have a good system where you publish it as a draft...

And when you press publish, it then opens the ghost interface to your post. Oh yeah, that's good. Okay. And then you can press publish. And so what I actually do there is you can attach an image in the Ulysses thing because it has like feature images. Again, like ghost templates are kind of built that every article should have an image, which I don't love because I don't always want to do that. But like, it's,

It's making me be creative in another way. I've got to find an image for this. I keep taking screenshots. I've started doing that too and I don't show the featured photo in my WordPress theme, but it's so that on Macedon Threads and Blue Sky there's a nice image that's not just the site logo. That's probably why they do it, right? For social? Yeah, that makes sense. Because they really want you to connect through your social accounts too, which I also don't want to do because it doesn't support all of the services I use, so I just do it using Croissant.

like i post then i share it using croissant tool the services that i want to share it to um yeah so then now i just i add the image when i'm on the website because it's it is better for that like even though their tools are limited you can sometimes at least crop something or whatever um but like that you know for i'll say like it did if i make just another complaint there just to kind of give you an example of the things that i find that are weird about it uh

There aren't any tools to wrap text around imagery. You can add images to a blog post, right? Like to actually to the body of the post, but they just go full width. No matter what size they are, right? So if you want to add something square...

It's massive. It's huge. It's just massive. Like there's no text wrapping. It's like, again, but I know you can do this if you build your own ghost template. I've also thought about vibe coding one, but I'm terrified. I might just do it for fun one day and just like see what happens. But realistically, I'm going to

Because I found a template that I liked and then I put it on the website and then again, it's like, ah, this is still not what I want. And so like, I just went and wanted a standard one to change the colors to something that was pleasing to me and published it. Can I understand something that is not totally clear to me? Yeah. Are you blogging with one hand? Sometimes, yeah. Ah, so this is a one-handed. Sometimes I can put like my iPad with the keyboard on my lap. Oh, so this is happening on the iPad. Yeah.

It's iPad and iPhone. iPad and iPhone, okay. I have published the majority of things to my blog from 100% on my iPhone. Written on my iPhone, published on my iPhone. By and large, swipe typing. That's why I need the AI, man. Yeah. Meanwhile, I'm over here with like 400 Dev and Think windows open and MarsEdit and a Mac. I'm publishing what the kids do, you know? It's all on the iPhone.

It's like I'm that version of the people making videos using CapCut or whatever, right? Like just everything is all on the iPhone. Like that's me blogging. Well, welcome to the future of media. Yeah, man. Welcome to text. And welcome to the end of the show. Oh, wow. Did you have anything else? No, no, no. I just like the welcome to the end of the show. Welcome to the end of the show.

If you want to find links to the stuff we spoke about there in your podcast player, they're also on the web at relay.fm slash connected slash 557. You can leave us feedback or follow up. There's a link in the show notes or you can go to connectedfeedback.com. Join and get Connected Pro, which is the longer ad-free version of the show that we do each and every week at 123membership.com. Is that right?

Is that what you said? I think so. Yes, that is correct. Thank you to our members who have supported us. A lot of you have been there since the beginning five years ago, so thank you. We love you all, but we love our members a little bit more. You can find Federico's work at MacStories.net. Y'all, go read his interview. What are you doing? It is so good. Read it on an iPad, obviously. Here's what you're going to do. You're going to get home. You're going to

So your family for a second, you can get something to eat. You're going to run the bath. You're going to get your iPad and you're going to read this in the bath with your iPad. Okay. Okay. Light a few candles. Light a few candles. Get a bath bomb going. Yeah. Relay FM LLC does not take any responsibility for iPads dropped in a bath. Yeah. No, obviously. Yeah. And obviously that's John's fault.

Yeah. Kate says, what if I don't have an iPad? Go buy an iPad. Or steal an iPad. Buy or steal an iPad. That's step one if you don't have an iPad. We also don't take responsibility for the stealing of electronics. Yeah. We're just saying things, essentially. Yeah. Mike hosts many other shows here on Relay. Check out his work at Cortex Brand and go subscribe to his blog.

The Enthusiast.net. Yes. I got to add that to my template here at the end of the show. Got a lot of things now. You really do. Yeah. You can find my writing at 512pixels.net, and I co-host Mac Power Users here on Relay each and every Sunday. I'd like our sponsors this week, Squarespace and Terminal. Thank you for listening. Until next week, guys, say goodbye. Adios. Cheerio. Bye, y'all.