INFAMOUS: The Death of John O'Keefe & The Trial of Karen Read
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Hi, Crime Junkies. I'm your host, Ashley Flowers. And I'm Brett. All right, you guys. This is a case that captivated the nation last year. Like the kind of media circus you can't ignore. And even if you weren't a crime junkie, you knew about this case and you had an opinion about this case. And I touched on it briefly in my SiriusXM show, but I never did a proper crime junkie deep dive because as we were getting into it, it was going to trial. And I thought like, OK,

Things are going to wrap up. We're going to have a conclusion. Right. I have never been so wrong. The trial of Karen Reid for the murder of John O'Keefe was a six-week spectacle that had more twists and turns in theatrics than most legal dramas on TV. And it all ended with a mistrial. So it's happening again.

Now, last time, I quite literally watched every minute of every day of trial because this is a case where you have to know every detail to talk confidently about what happened. And this time around, I want the crime junkies to join in as well.

So I'm going to catch you up. I want to tell you everything we know about the death of John O'Keefe, everything we know about the prosecution's case against Karen Reed and her defense's rebuttal so that you can be fully prepared for the second trial that's starting soon. And I have a way for you to follow along with us through that second trial.

We're going to be doing a trial watch along with my friend and fellow podcaster Brandi Churchwell, who has become quite literally an expert on this case. Now, she's not a lawyer. She is a layman like you and me, like the jury. And she'll be doing live watch alongs and daily recaps on our new YouTube page, Crime Junkie Jury.

But before we get back to court, I'm going to present to you the two versions of the same story that we heard last time. And you get to decide which one is true. These are the stories of the death of John O'Keefe. Here's what we know for sure about January 28th and 29th, 2022.

On January 28th, 41-year-old Karen Reed met up with her 46-year-old boyfriend of two years, John O'Keefe. They met at this bar in Canton, Massachusetts called C.F. McCarthy's.

Now, surveillance video shows Karen walking in, greeting John at 8.51 p.m., and they're drinking there for about two hours until they walk over to another nearby bar, The Waterfall, where they meet up with a group of people that John knew, some of whom Karen knows-ish. But some of them were law enforcement, just like John, who is a Boston cop. Now, everyone's having a good time, like mingling, talking, no one person standing out more than another.

Video from that night shows that Karen was throwing back drinks. At one point in the night, she actually seemed to be like ordering shots and then pouring them into her mixed drink, I guess to like make them stronger. Actually, I just watched the documentary that came out on HBO. She says like it was a drink she didn't like. And so she got a shot and was pouring it in there. I don't know. Either way, shots and drinks.

And listen, it's not like everyone else is sober. This is a group that can put a few back. And no one is ready to call it quits around midnight when the bar is closing. Despite the fact that it is already snowing and New England is about to get walloped by a Nor'easter. John even still has a cocktail glass in his hand when he leaves the bar with Karen. And they move the party over to a house about five minutes away at 34 Fairview Road. Becomes infamous at some point.

Now, the house belongs to a couple in the group, this other Boston cop and his wife. So Brian and Nicole Albert. Now, it was their son, Brian Jr.'s 23rd birthday. And I guess Brian and Nicole basically invited everyone back to their house to join whatever like party he was having.

Now, despite the copious amounts of alcohol that has been consumed, Karen climbs behind the wheel of her Lexus, John in the passenger seat, because she's going to drive them over. Now, John didn't know Brian Albert super well, but he did know someone else in the group well, a woman named Jen McCabe. And she is actually sisters with Brian's wife, Nicole Albert, who owns the house. So John and Jen exchange calls and texts along the way. It's now shortly after midnight, January 29th.

At 12.14, John texts Jen McCabe, where to? And then less than a minute later, she calls John back. And they have this like 44-second conversation, presumably like giving, getting directions. Four minutes after that, at 12.18, John calls Jen for 36 seconds. Likely he's like getting some clarifying directions or whatever because...

By this point, everyone is starting to arrive at the house. And like Jen is expecting John and Karen too, but they don't come rolling into the house after everyone. So Jen goes to the window and looks out. She actually sees a dark SUV that might be Karen. So she texts John at 1227. Here? When he hasn't replied two minutes later, she calls him again. John answers the call. It's a quick eight seconds and then he hangs up. But he still hasn't come in.

At 12.31, Jen texts John, hello. At 12.40, she texts him again, pull behind me. At 12.41, John gets two missed calls from Jen and Jen texts, where are you? 12.43, John gets a missed call from Jen. 12.45, Jen texts John, hello. 12.46, missed call from Jen to John. 12.47, missed call from Jen again. 12.50, missed call from Jen again.

Now, no one but the people who lived this story knows what happened next. But there are a few things that we do know for certain. We know that John got out of Karen's car. And Karen's car data shows that she put her car in reverse and backed up at some point. Then she drove off, eventually ending up at John's place for the night.

And she drove off pissed. Yeah, wasn't she leaving like really, really angry voicemails like that whole night? Well, not the whole night, but like after she left, like most certainly. Yeah. And I actually want to play some of them for those who don't know what we're talking about. Sorry, I'm...

John, I'm going home. I cannot believe that you need me to go home. You're a f***ing youth in me, Raina. F***ing another girl. She's sleeping next to me. You're a f***ing loser. F*** yourself.

So she's mad. She is also firing off texts at this point telling John that she's going back to her house in Mansfield. She's leaving his niece and nephew home alone. Now, John's niece and nephew both actually live with him because he took them in after his sister and his brother-in-law both died in short succession of one another.

And listen, she's not actually going to end up leaving them alone, but this is what she's threatening to do. So she stays at John's and eventually falls asleep on the couch until about 4.30 in the morning when she wakes up in a panic.

Now, it's Karen who alerts people in the morning that John never came home. Like she first wakes up his niece asking her to call Jen McCabe because John didn't come home. She needs to find him, but she doesn't have Jen's number. And she's reported to have sound panicked. And she was talking maybe about a fight that they'd gotten in. And when she finally gets on the phone with Jen at 453 in the morning, Jen says she doesn't know where John is, but she will help Karen look for him.

So Karen is going to meet Jen at Jen's place. And in the meantime, she calls another friend, Carrie Roberts. Carrie wasn't in the group that went out the night before. She's just a good friend of John's. But Karen just wants more people to help look for him. Yeah, more people helping and trying to figure this all out. Right. So on the phone with Carrie, she is so panicked that she's saying she thinks John is dead.

So while Carrie makes her way to meet up with Jen and Karen, she is also calling like non-emergency police lines to ask if there's been any snowplow accident. She's calling local hospitals, but no one has any intel on John O'Keefe.

Now, once all three women are back together, they drive back to John's. In that new documentary I told you I just watched, Karen says it was actually Jen's idea for them to go back and look, which didn't make sense to Karen, she said. But I don't know. Like, they didn't fully look. She said, I was there. He wasn't. But like, I think Jen's probably thinking, like, he could just be passed out somewhere. Right. So they go back to his house. They look around. He's nowhere to be found.

So they head over to where Karen says she last saw him, outside of the Alberts' home. Now, at this point, it's around 6 a.m., snow is still coming down, they've all had very little sleep, and Karen is in a full-blown panic in the backseat. Presumably made even worse when Jen says they never saw John the night before.

And Karen starts going on about how drunk she was the night before and that she doesn't remember anything and that her taillight on her SUV is cracked. And Jen and Carrie find themselves being asked by Karen, could I have hit him? Did I hit him? And when they near the Alberts' house, Karen begins literally like kicking at the door, shouting, there he is. He's right there.

But Jen and Carrie can't see anything. I mean, they just see snow until Karen like launches herself out of the car and runs over to a spot in the Alberts lawn, like near this flagpole they have, where sure enough, after like brushing away about six inches of fresh snow, they find John.

And Karen throws herself on top of him and is like lifting up their shirts to try and exchange body heat, warming him up. She makes a comment in the new documentary that she like pulls a piece of glass out of his face, which like it's the first time she mentions this, by the way, but like pulls a piece of glass out and he's bleeding. And she's just freaking out, trying to figure out what to do. And this is when Jen calls 911 at 6.04 in the morning.

Yes, there's a man unresponsive in the snow.

Okay. Is he cool at all? Yeah, you've got to get here. Okay. Okay. What's going on? Is he face down? We just flipped him over. Okay. And who's that in the background? Is that someone related? Okay, that's his girlfriend. Her name is John, at least. Okay.

Okay, how old is he? John is 46 years old. 46? How long has he been outside? I don't know. I don't know. He got out of the car and... Is he breathing? A couple of hours. Is he... Terry, is he... I don't... I don't know if he's breathing. There are two women trying to heat... Right. ...to his body heat, and they're hysterical.

Okay, can you just try to ask him? I know it's tough, but we already have the fire department going. They just got to know what they're doing. Is he breathing, you guys? No. It doesn't seem to be breathing. Okay, do they know how to do CPR? Do they want to attempt CPR? Can you guys do CPR?

No, I guess he's gone. Okay. They don't feel comfortable doing so? No, I think he's passed away. Okay. All right, we have the fire department and the police department on the way. If everyone's declining CPR, then I'll hang up with you, and if anything changes, you can give us a call back. Where are you guys outside? Right outside. I know, I know. I'm on the phone with the ambulance. I know, I know, I know. I know, honey. I know, I know.

Terry, you got to get off him, honey. Terry, you got to get off of him. You know if there was any alcohol or drugs involved? They had been out. They had been out. They've been out drinking. Yes, but I'm talking hours ago, maybe...

And I don't know how long he's been in the snow. Okay. Is there any bleeding or anything? Maybe it hit his head out? Yes, possibly. There seems to be bleeding in the face. Okay, bleeding from the face. All right. Yes. And how big is the pool of blood, if there is any? Something's coming out of his nose, and one of the women is doing CPR. Okay, one of the women is doing CPR? Yes, they're both working on him. All right. If she's doing CPR, just give us a call back. We'd become his response, all right, but we're on the way.

Now, I know that audio is a little hard to make out, but Karen is obviously panicking in the background. I mean, to the point that the dispatcher actually asked who he can hear in the background while he's trying to get all the details of what's going on. And Jen tells him it's John's girlfriend. So we know it's Karen that's yelling. And Jen also tells the dispatcher that they don't think John is breathing. And the dispatcher tells them to start CPR.

So Karen starts that until Canton police and paramedics get there, which is like a few minutes later. And they're all probably shocked to find out that the man lying in the snow is one of their own. Now, John isn't Canton PD. Like I said, he is a 16-year veteran of the Boston Police Department. But he lives in Canton. And Canton is a small town where, like, most everyone knows each other. So the pressure is on to try and save John.

They rush him to the hospital, and Karen is actually brought to the hospital too because she is threatening that she might take her own life if John dies. But try as they might, John can't be saved. And by 7.50 in the morning, authorities deliver the heartbreaking news that John has died. And the investigation into his death officially kicks off with a man named Michael Proctor at the helm. And boy, would that turn out to be a mistake.

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At the scene where John was found, Canton police officers battle continued snowfall as they try and sift through the inches of white powder on the ground to look for and collect evidence. Now, meanwhile, State Trooper Michael Proctor has already began talking to people, and he's hearing bits and pieces of a fuzzy story. But the outline is there. Everyone's been drinking. It's a snowstorm. People are drinking and driving in a snowstorm.

He's told that Karen dropped John off, but John never made it in.

He needs to talk to Karen. I mean, lots of people are talking about Karen, about what they say came out of Karen's mouth that morning. But Michael needs to talk directly to Karen. Right, because at one point, she's not just asking if she hit him. Like, she says she did hit him, right? So according to a paramedic, yes. They say they actually heard her say it three times. I hit him. I hit him. I hit him. But cops don't know that yet.

Now, by this point, Karen has been released from the hospital and they did a blood test while she was in there. And the results were that her BAC was 0.07 to 0.08 percent, which is just around the legal limit.

And mind you, this is hours after she reportedly stopped drinking. But she's been released by this point. She's at her parents' place. Like, she had actually gone there after first going to John's house. I mean, that was basically her second home. But John's family was all there. And she said, like, when she got there, she did not feel welcome. So, like, mom and dad's house it is. So that's where Michael Proctor finds her and her SUV, which they seize as part of their investigation. Right.

She tells Proctor and another sergeant that he's with that she and John were fine. Now, they did get into an argument that morning on the 28th over like what she gave his teenage niece for breakfast, like one of those dumb fights that couples have. And then that night, she and John met up at the bars. She dropped John off at the Albert home, made a three-point turn, and then headed back home. And then in the morning, she spotted a broken taillight on her car but wasn't sure how it happened.

Now, we know that this first meeting with Karen fed into investigators brewing theory about her culpability. And the investigation Proctor leads over the next week or so only feeds the fire even more.

Back at the scene, other officers had begun finding physical evidence around the area where John's body had been. When he was carted off, he was missing one shoe, but that got found nearby along with his hat, a cocktail straw, and pieces of glass that they believe came from that glass he was holding when he left the bar. They also find pieces of red and clear plastic consistent with Karen's taillight on Brian Albert's lawn.

So two days later, on January 31st, an autopsy is performed on John, and the medical examiner finds that John suffered a lot of injuries. Now, he's got several abrasions on his right forearm, small cuts above his right eye and on the left side of his nose, a two-inch laceration on the back of his head, multiple skull fractures that caused brain bleeding, and two black eyes.

Now, aside from the abrasions on his arm, from the neck down, he does not have a single broken bone or fracture. But ultimately, they find that he died of blunt force trauma and hypothermia.

So Proctor looks at all of this evidence that police found, the taillight, the autopsy results, the way John was ejected from his shoe, the same way he's seen so many cases of vehicular homicides before. And it is his belief that all of it points right to Karen and the idea that she backed into John in her Lexus SUV and left him to die in the snow.

So on February 1st, police arrest Karen at her home in Mansfield. She is arraigned the next day on charges of manslaughter, motor vehicle homicide, and leaving the scene of a deadly crash. When that happens, Karen retains attorney David Yannetti first, and local press catch him coming out of the courthouse, where he gives the public their first real insight into the case and what's to come. Karen's going to fight. He says she has no criminal intent and that she loved John and she is innocent.

Karen was let out on a $50,000 bail that day, and Yannetti started to prepare what at first felt like a pretty straightforward defense. But then, on February 2nd, Yannetti gets this very strange call from an anonymous tipster that takes this seemingly straightforward case and transforms it into one of the biggest conspiracy cases I have ever come across.

According to Boston Magazine, on this call, this anonymous tipster says something to the effect of, your client is innocent. John was beaten up by Brian Albert and his nephew. They broke his nose. And when O'Keefe didn't come to, Brian and a federal agent dumped his body on the front lawn. Who was the federal agent? So the federal agent is someone they were out with drinking at the bars that night.

Someone that went back to their place, too. Now, to be fair, we don't know for sure this is who the anonymous tipster was talking about. But like the federal agent we know was at the house that night was Brian Higgins, which I'm sure is a name you're familiar with. But he's an ATF agent, Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives. And he's going to become central to this story. It's why you know his name. And he's actually one of the only people who knew Karen really well in that group.

But back to this call. So this tipster ends up recanting everything he said. Apparently, police track him down. And when they interview him, he says, like, JK, none of it's true. But his tip has already gotten Karen's wheels turning. She says in an interview with Nightline that after the tipster came forward, she went on Facebook and started finding photos of the police who were investigating the case with people who were in the Alberts' house that night.

Now, it's unclear what exact photos she is talking about in that interview, but we know now that Michael Proctor is in multiple social media posts with members of the Albert family. So she starts to wonder if all of these people are connected and if she's being framed in some sort of cover up for something they did.

And if that's the case, she knows that she needs a top-notch defense team. So in September, she sends an email in which she says, quote, I am fighting for my life against a blue wall. And

And that email goes to Alan Jackson. Not Alan Jackson, the country singer. To be very, very clear. Was my first thought. Same. This is a high profile defense attorney from Los Angeles. And this idea that she's putting forward, this catches his attention. Now, he has a couple of follow up questions, but it doesn't take much. He's in.

And no one's been able to say why exactly this next thing happens for sure. Is it because Karen seemed to be gearing up for a fight and they were hoping to intimidate her, push her into a deal? Or was it just because they continued digging and felt like the circumstances of the case had changed? You tell me.

But by June 2022, a grand jury had indicted Karen on upgraded charges of second-degree murder, manslaughter while operating under the influence of alcohol, and leaving the scene of personal injury or death. Karen again pleads not guilty and posts bail again. This time, it's $100,000.

And this is really when the madness begins. Not when this thing goes to trial. No, no, no. That is not happening for two more years at this point.

The pretrial hearings and what played out on the Internet was a spectacle on its own, enough so that we all knew what each side's case was before even going to trial or before the first witnesses ever even took the stand. I mean, we already knew the prosecution side, right? Though they do fill in the story a little more with details along the way.

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I have it in black heather, but of course I've already ordered it in two more colors. Roan is performance apparel fit for progress. Use code Crime Junkie to save 20% at roan.com slash crime junkie. That's R-H-O-N-E dot com slash crime junkie with code Crime Junkie at checkout. Basically, they say that John and Karen's relationship was on its way out.

John's niece had even heard him say as much, like his relationship with Karen had like run its course. And the day they all went out, John seemed pretty fed up with her. In one text, he told her he was tired of arguing all the time. But I mean, we know they also met up at the bar and he was trying to convince her to stay over for the weekend. So like, talk about mixed signals. But

But it seems like Karen might have had one leg out the door too because she was texting another guy. And not just any other guy, that ATF agent, Brian Higgins.

They had been pretty flirty over texts, even shared a kiss pretty recently at John's house when Karen walked Brian Higgins to the door. And listen, new fear unlocked. When this thing does get to trial, Brian has to take the stand and read these texts out loud under the fluorescent lights of the courtroom, streamed on court TV. And I have never suffered from secondhand embarrassment the way I did watching that day of trial.

And I need everyone to know exactly what I mean. Defendant responded, you're hot. I responded, are you serious or messing with me? Defendant responded, no, I'm serious. I responded, failing is mutual. Is that bad? When were you interested? Defendant responded, I don't know. You're just my type. I responded, you think you can handle me?

Yeah, that's the type of embarrassment that like wakes you up in the middle of the night seven years later and you just continue to cringe. Yes. So relationship status, complicated. For sure. Now, even though everyone at the bar said that the couple seemed fine, the theory is that they began fighting about something in the car. So that by the time John gets out of Karen's SUV, Karen is pissed. Exhibit A, her voicemails.

I...

Is that the real reason she didn't get out and go with him? I don't know. It's hard for anyone to know why Karen didn't get out because Karen's own story about why she didn't get out has changed over time. More proof to the prosecution that she's lying. Like at one point she says, oh, she didn't get out because she had a stomach ache. And then at another point she says it's because she didn't know if she and John were actually invited. So she sent him in to kind of like suss out the vibe.

Either way, she doesn't go in. Instead, the prosecution alleges that John got out of the car and when he did, Karen intentionally backed up into him, which they say is proven by a few things. One, I mean, first and foremost, everyone in the Albert home says that John never came inside. Hard stop.

Two, there are no footprints in the snow leading from the Alberts' house to John's body. So it seems like no one from the house walked anywhere near where John was found. But it was a blizzard. Like, would we even expect there to be footprints in the snow? I don't think so. It's just like pointed out. So I felt like I had to throw it in here. But like, no, I don't know.

Number three, we have some SUV data. So they have data from Karen's SUV that shows she backed up for 60 feet driving 24 miles per hour that morning. But the vehicle's data doesn't specify exactly what time. Now, number four, they've got surveillance video that shows John leaving the bar, like I said earlier, with a glass in his hand. And they say that they find that glass shattered next to his body on the lawn.

So they think that he was holding it when she backed up into him. And then, of course, number five, which is like the prosecution's clincher, you have her broken taillight found in the snow, which they reconfigure back together to show it was hers. And the prosecution says that they even find pieces of plastic from the taillight, like somewhere within his clothing.

And there's like debate about like where in the clothing or whatever. But like, does it matter? I don't know because they say they found DNA, John's DNA on the taillight. The sixth thing they point to is they've got a hair on the back of Karen's car that when tested is found to be consistent with John's DNA. And then finally, they have the autopsy.

He suffers blunt force trauma after, as the prosecution says, being hit by Karen's car. And then she drives away, leaving him to get hypothermia and die because no one knows he's out there. Pretty cut and dry, right? Yeah, if only. I know.

So in one of the early pretrial hearings, Karen's defense attorney, Alan Jackson, announces how he's going to defend Karen by exposing a cover up and a far reaching conspiracy to frame Karen. And just to be clear, when I say conspiracy, I mean, we are talking about the legal definition of a conspiracy. One or more people conspiring with one another to carry out a criminal act.

And man, whether it is truth or just a combination of very bad police work and coincidence, what comes out is mind-blowing.

So I need to address the turtle in the room. The turtle. So there is this blogger who goes by the handle Turtle Boy. Real name, Aiden Carney. And don't worry if you don't like calling him Turtle Boy. He is given an alternate option, dubbing himself Journalism Jesus. So do with that what you will. But basically, this guy covers what he calls anti-establishment news.

Now, he's from the area, so he hears about Karen's story. And I didn't know at first, like, how he really, like, latches on to this. But, again, I just watched the doc this morning, and I found out it was actually someone from Karen's, like, family, friends, team, whatever, actually reached out to him. They had, like, followed him, liked what he did, and was like, hey, you should pay attention to this. They're the ones that actually point him in this direction. And he, like, fully leans in.

He is fully bought into the conspiracy and it basically becomes his whole personality as seen from his website. And for better or worse, he is a really big reason why this case took off as much as it did.

Somehow, this guy was coming out with a ton of insider information on the case. Well, turns out, somehow, sometimes, it was because Karen was leaking stuff to him. Like, there was a state police affidavit that reveals that over the course of a few months in 2023, Karen spent like 40 hours on the phone with him, allegedly feeding him confidential information.

And listen, I'm all about independent journalism and alternatives to mainstream news. But he did a lot of things that rubbed a lot of people the wrong way, which is why he has been such a polarizing presence in this case. Like, for example, he showed up at Jen McCabe's kids' soccer game and recorded himself asking her inflammatory questions.

And his so-called turtle riders did a rolling rally where they went house to house in a caravan of cars using a bullhorn and shouting about their cover-up allegations outside witnesses' homes. Which, to be clear, like those people have never been charged. And at this point, they were all considered witnesses in the case, which is why he ends up getting charged with witness intimidation down the line.

And this group's protests are popping up all over, even out of state. But there is nowhere that they are more intense than right outside of the courthouse during trial. I mean, it is wild. Turtle Boy and his fans go in hard on the free Karen Reid movement. They're wearing Turtle Boy branded FKR merch and holding rallies outside the courthouse, like to the point that the judge has to put up a 200 foot buffer zone.

And on that documentary on HBO, someone had said that, like, I don't know if this is true or not, but they claimed that the jurors could actually, like, hear them, like, chanting free Karen Reid while they were trying to deliberate. Right.

Like, I don't remember, like, even if you didn't watch every minute of trial like I did, like, this was all over the news. Yeah. It was a madhouse. And our reporter spoke with one of John's closest friends, and he told us that free Karen Reid protesters were actually calling people cop killers on their way into court.

And a bunch of officers and John's friends had to escort John's mom into the courthouse. Like this guy we're talking to is a Marine veteran, and he said the scene outside the courthouse reminded him of being in a combat zone in Iraq.

And the chaos of all of this made everything 10 times harder for John's grieving family. And I was just trying to rewatch some footage to like really like wrap my mind around what was happening, like a reminder almost, because it does feel like forever ago at this point. And it was wild the way that

You know, you see this, like we saw this with OJ, the way that people like wrap themselves around this and can get so like you forget why we're all here and how tragic this is. It's almost like a disconnection or dissociation with reality anymore. They're like tailgating this trial and people were outside on lawn chairs like watching it and chanting. And it has become something so much bigger than the reason we're here and the reason we're here is getting lost. Right.

So you can understand why state officials don't give much credence to this blogger. And I say blogger, I know he says journalist, but there is a difference between like anything he hears just goes up online, like the vetting process doesn't seem to be there.

And it's also no surprise, really, that the prosecution thinks that the defense's idea of a conspiracy is bonkers. I mean, the Norfolk D.A., Michael Morrissey, makes a bold move and even issues a video statement saying that there's a reason people are tried in court and not on the Internet, which is like that I agree with. But he also uses this video as an opportunity to defend the one and only Michael Proctor.

Well, not so fast, my guy. Internal Affairs isn't so confident in how he's handled this case. They end up opening an investigation into Proctor's conduct.

And it turns out someone else is looking into his conduct, too. While everyone is so busy saying the cover-up theory is outlandish and some scheme cooked up by the not-country singer Alan Jackson, in comes an unprecedented, and I do not use that word lightly, unprecedented bombshell.

While attorneys are getting ready to call witnesses for the trial, someone else is reaching out to those same witnesses, the FBI. That's right, the feds are getting involved. And they have their own case that ends up kind of giving the defense a leg up. Because all of a sudden, they've got access to like 3,000 pages of documents that the feds have collected in their investigation about this stuff.

And it's like almost every suspicion the defense has had gets confirmed and some. And like, I don't even know where to start. But like high level, the defense's theory is that Karen and John drove to the Alberts' house. John goes in. Karen leaves. There's some kind of altercation in the house specifically involving John, Brian Higgins, Brian Albert, and Brian Albert's nephew, Colin Albert.

Now, they think there was some kind of altercation in the basement of the home, and then they put him out in the front lawn where he died. And if you believe this theory and everything that's to come, they knew he was going to die. But let me really break it down. So here is the defense for Karen Reed.

So they say that even if Karen and John were fighting earlier that day, they're fine by the time they get to the first bar. The people who were with them even testified that they seemed like they were getting along. So Karen and John meet up with everyone else at the waterfall. They get invited back to the Alberts' house.

Now, when they get there by like the time of trial and stuff, the defense is going with Karen's later story that she just didn't know if they were really invited or welcome. So she waits in the car while John goes in for a vibe check. She doesn't see him go in like she doesn't actually watch him go in the door. But he gets out of the car. She assumes he goes in. Right. But then he doesn't come back out and she gets pissed and leaves him there.

This is when Karen says she makes a three-point turn to turn around and go home. And the three-point turn, I think, is like her excuse for the data the prosecution has saying that she backed up. This is also when and why they say she left those nasty voicemails. And they think it's actually more proof that he went inside.

So

So the voicemails sound to me like she thinks he's with another woman. Yeah. Like she's clearly upset that he's not back. Upset that he never is like isn't responding to her. Did she like do that on purpose? Like, right. But there's so many. Yeah. I've heard there's like another woman who apparently like live near the Alberts house that maybe John...

like knew or dated or something at some point. And so I don't know if she had a fear that maybe he like went there, would have walked there. And like, again, this maybe this is where the plow thing comes in. Like she never says that explicitly, but maybe. Or maybe she's just like super jealous and like thinks he's capable of anything. And that's why she's calling him a pervert over and over again. Yeah. And so she thinks he's like, I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. Right. But you can see where the defense is coming from. Yes.

So before she drives off and leaves those voicemails, there is something I want to talk about. At about 12.23 a.m., a guy named Ryan Nagel pulls up outside the Alberts' house with friends to pick up his sister, Julie Nagel. And they get there right around the same time as Karen's SUV. They actually pull up right behind it. Now, Ryan says in court that he didn't notice any obvious damage to the car, mainly, right, we're thinking about the taillight. But he also notes that it's late. He's been drinking.

Now, he says he's out there for a few minutes and he doesn't see anybody walking away from Karen's SUV toward the house. And he also doesn't see anyone laying in the lawn.

So his sister Julie comes out and for some reason she decides she's going to stay. So even though Ryan like made this whole trip to come get her, he and his friends decide to leave. And as they pull like alongside Karen's SUV, Ryan clocks that the interior light is on and there is a woman in the driver's seat. She is like looking ahead with her hands on the wheel. And this is the important part. He says that she's alone.

And all that means is that according to what Ryan saw and what he testified to in court, at 12.23, John wasn't in Karen's car, but he also wasn't dead on the lawn. And from what he knows, Karen's taillight wasn't cracked.

At 12.36 a.m., that's when Karen's phone data shows that she connected to the Wi-Fi in John's house. And in one of the voicemails that she's leaving him, like yelling at him, specifically one at 12.42 a.m., you can hear her walking on hard floor. So this puts her at his house 12.36 to 12.42-ish. And this is important because witnesses at the Alberts who saw a black SUV say that they saw it take off at around 12.45 a.m.

And that's the time that the prosecution alleges she hit John. But it's not possible if she's at John's house by 1236. Right. And listen, that doesn't mean that everyone's recollections are perfect. We're off by like 10 minutes. It's not huge, but it is worth noting if this is the prosecution's case. Now, initially, everyone said they saw nothing.

And I will say, to be fair, you've got this blizzard condition. It is late. Everyone's been drinking. Where John is found on the lawn is like over on the side of the yard towards the road and where everyone's driveway and where I assume their cars would be are like in the driveway. So, you know, I'm like bundled up in my coat face down when I'm like going out in an Indiana winter. I don't think they're looking for things. Mm-hmm.

But still, no one says they saw anything when they were leaving that morning. And John should be laying right there, not yet covered in snow. Now, eventually, Julie Nagel does say that she saw something. She ended up, like I said, staying and then gets a ride back with actually Jen McCabe and their family. And she says that...

She maybe saw a five to six foot long black blob near the flagpole. Maybe. Maybe. But if she did see that blob, she doesn't mention it to anyone she's in the car with. She doesn't mention it to Jen McCabe or her husband, Matt McCabe, who are in the car. She just doesn't say anything.

And speaking of Jen, Jen's story was that she and her husband dropped them off and went home. And Jen says that she stayed up for a little bit. She was like on her phone looking up a local basketball team that her daughter might be joining. And then she went to sleep. In fact, everyone was supposed to have been asleep until Karen started waking people up to go look for John. But the defense got their hands on everyone's phone records. And it gets really freaking weird.

So Jen McCabe is the one communicating with John when they left the bar, right? Right. Calls, texts, directions. Directions, all of that parked behind me. So at 1229 a.m., she called John and the call lasted eight seconds. And then after that point, all of her calls to him go unanswered. And she makes her last one to him at 1250. And was it Karen calling John like a million times too during that time? Oh, yeah. She called him like 50 times that night.

But anyways, everyone has left the Albert house by like 2 a.m., most to go home to sleep. But around 1.30, Brian Higgins actually goes to the Canton Police Department.

Remember, he's not Canton PD, he's ATF, but he actually works out of an office at Canton PD. Except he's not on duty that night. Still, even though it's 1.30 in the morning and he's been drinking, he decides now is a good time that he's going to go like knock out some administrative work and or move his cars that he's been asked to move so that the parking lot could be plowed. He doesn't stay super long, ends up going home, eating something, going to bed. So everyone should be home sleeping.

But that's not what phone records show. At 2.22 a.m. on January 29th, Brian Albert calls Brian Higgins. And then 17 seconds later, Brian Higgins calls Brian Albert back. And the call is answered. That call lasts about 22 seconds.

Now, both men testified that they had been asleep at this time. So this is a problem, right? Because it shows at least one of the calls was connected. But both men under oath claim that this was just a butt dial. Both men have iPhones, by the way.

I have butt dialed plenty of time. Me. What I haven't seen is a butt dial that goes unanswered and then a butt dial that calls back and then that gets butt answered while everyone is asleep. The butt answer is the question mark I have. While you're asleep. You're not even claiming to be like moving around or walking. It does not add up.

But they're not even the only ones whose phones, I will say, are up and around and moving at this time. At 2.25 a.m., two outbound texts are made from Jen McCabe's phone.

Now, it's not clear to who or what they say. And is it weird that we don't know that information in 2022 when everything's recorded on a cell phone? Well, yes. Yes, it is. I don't know why we don't have this. But I do know for sure that when police finally get her phone, she has deleted a huge chunk of calls from the 29th, which I think is super weird. And just calls, not text. Right. So that text is, as far as I know, that text is still there. But she's not.

But she does delete something else. So at 2.26, she deletes two screenshots. And then a minute later at 2.27, she does an internet search, which she later deletes. The infamous internet search, Haas long to die in cold. Yep. Now, everyone believes it's supposed to be how long to die in cold, but how got mistyped to Haas. And this goes on to be so heavily debated.

Jen says that she didn't search that at 2.27.

I mean, she shouldn't be. No one knows John is out in the cold yet, right? And she's asleep, right? Well, maybe not. Like, this could be like as she's, like, winding down. She basically says that when she went and found John the next morning with Karen, Karen asked her to search how long does it take for hypothermia to set in or, like, some version of that question. And she goes to type that into a browser that she said she opened at 2.27 a.m.

And this turns into like a battle of the experts when it comes to trial, because each side has experts who take the stand and claim something different. If you ask the defense, that search itself was made at 2.27. If you ask the prosecution, that's just premeditated.

When Jen opened the tab. I don't understand how we can't know. Like this feels like the data should be solid. I know. What am I not getting out of this? It's so messy to me. Like the defense says that the prosecution, whoever they were using to like analyze the data was like looking at the wrong like version of iOS or something. And so like the way they see it, they're like, you're not wrong based on how you see it, but like you're analyzing it wrong or something to that effect.

And I don't think there is. It does feel like it should be black and white, but I don't think it is because come this second trial, the judge is going to allow both sides to use their experts again. So I don't think there is a definitive right answer yet. The defense also says that they have data to back up a claim that Jen deleted the search. But Jen swears that she never deleted it. So I don't even know what to think of that.

What we do know is that the defense expert who said the search itself was made at 2.27 a.m., like I said, is going to be allowed to testify in trial number two. So the defense theory has to be that this is evidence of them planning to put him out in the cold, right? Because, like,

They allege he's not even out there based on Lucky's testimony, right? Ah, Lucky. Okay, so as I've said a thousand times, it's snowing hard in these early morning hours. The snow is basically like one of the leading ladies in this story. But because it's snowing so hard, plow trucks are getting out there early, like really early. And the defense found the plow driver who was on the Albert Street that morning.

Now, it doesn't seem like the cops went looking for him during their investigation to confirm their theory. Apparently, they reached out to the town to see, like, who was plowing in the area that night, but they didn't go too far down that investigative avenue. So, I mean, this is, again, where people ask, like, conspiracy or just, like, bad police work. I don't know. But what the defense finds by talking to Lucky is that sometime between 2.30 and 3 a.m., Brian Lucky Loughran is on the Albert Street.

Now, he doesn't just know the street. He knows the Alberts, though honestly everyone in Canton does. But Lucky went to school with Brian's brother, Chris, and he used to deliver pizzas for Chris's restaurant. So, like, knows them, knows the street, knows the house. And guess what he sees that morning?

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Lucky testifies that there was nobody in the front lawn when he's out there, which shouldn't be possible if the Commonwealth is right and Karen hit John at 1245. So my dad plowed snow like a lot of winters growing up. And I feel like if you've never been in a snowplow, it's hard to describe. You can hardly see like what's right in front of you, let alone like the road, like what's off in a lawn next to you. That's not anything you're trying to do.

So this is something that the prosecution actually brought up and it gets argued. Like you're up high and it's not like he was in the road, right? Like he's in the lawn. So they're like, you just missed him. But no, no, no, no, no. Lucky says.

Because he's in a truck that is called the Franken-truck, a reference to Frankenstein since it has a lot of different parts. And he says that his seat was actually raised up on the truck and that he had outfitted it so it would be like, quote, driving with a spotlight. So he is certain if there was a body there, he would have seen it. What he did see, though, he says, was a vehicle parked outside the Albert house.

Lucky says that when he first passes the Alberts' house at 2.45 a.m., there's no vehicle parked out front. But then when he comes back, like 30 or 40 minutes later, he sees a Ford Edge parked on the street right in front of where John's body was found. Now, this is relevant because the Alberts say that no one else was at their house that night after everyone left the party. So if this is true, whose car was that?

Now, there's a pretty quiet couple of hours between like 2.30 and 4.30 in the morning where there's no phone activity. 4.30 is when Karen wakes up John's niece. She asked her to call Jen because she didn't have her number. And then she eventually calls Jen directly and that's made at 4.53. And after that, Jen does try to call John at least once at 5.04.

And some of those calls after that were part of the bunch that Jen deleted. Now, why is Jen calling? The simple explanation is that she just got news that her friend is missing and she's trying to reach him. But then why delete the calls? Right. Like looking for your friend is a good thing. Yeah. So the defense, who believes that she searched how long to die in cold at 227, they think she knows exactly where her friend is and maybe she was doing it because she wanted to make it look like she was concerned.

Then again, I ask, like, why delete the calls? Right. And I know a big theory online is that she was calling to find John's phone. So then they could, like, plant it outside near his body. I heard that, too. But then, like, why stop calling from 1250 or, like, whatever her last call was till 5 a.m.? Like, it doesn't totally add up for me. But, like, you'll see nothing in this story totally adds up. Right. Okay, so Karen called Jen again at 5.05 a.m.

but doesn't get through. Jen calls her right back. They talk for 43 seconds, presumably making plans to meet up to look for John. Both of those call logs are also deleted by Jen. And apparently on that deleted call, Jen and Karen agree that Karen will go pick her up. So Karen gets into her SUV, which was parked in John's garage, and his home security system catches her on surveillance backing out at 5.07 a.m. Now,

John's SUV is in the driveway. And as she is backing out, his car moves ever so slightly. I mean, like, you gotta zoom, don't blink. But it's right as Karen's car would be getting close to hit. And if Karen's car hit John's, it would have been her right side taillight that hit it. The same right side taillight that police allege she hit John with so hard that it was cracked and left behind at the Alberts' house.

Was it already cracked before she ever even pulled into the garage? Would love to tell you, but there's no video footage from John's ring camera showing Karen pulling into John's garage that night. Why is there no video, you may ask? Because the footage is missing. How? How? Another tech question that somehow there is no answer to.

The prosecution has insinuated that Karen deleted that part of the video from the Ring app sometime like the day of John's death. Though there is no data backing this up. They just like pose this hypothetically. While the defense alleges that investigators deleted it before handing the video over to them. Also no proof of that. Cool. So whatever. Okay, no problem. There's probably more footage, right? Yeah.

somewhere along her drive home. All we have to do is show the taillight is cracked before she gets to John's that morning and there is no debating this. Like, case over. Well,

Well, they found a camera on a local library that would have been on the exact route she took to John's house. It would have shown the right side taillight and everything. And police even collected it in time to get the footage from the time Karen would have been driving by on the 29th. But... But... When that footage was turned over to the defense...

It's missing a crucial two-minute window that would have shown Karen's car after leaving the Alberts. Now, the prosecution says, well, that's just what we got. And we just turned it over how it was turned over to us. And we're just supposed to, like, believe all that. Like, that twice, the exact footage we need, including one from a local library, is just, uh-oh, missing, sorry. That's what they're telling us.

So back to our timeline. Karen pulls out at 5.07 to go looking for John on her own for like 20 minutes before she goes to meet with Jen and Carrie. And I think like there's even video of her car like going in the direction of the waterfall bar, which is like confusing to me because she leaves him. Not there. Not there. What are you looking for there? Do you think that he could have gone back there? And it's really interesting because there is this moment in the trial where the first trial where

Jen McCabe is on the stand and she even says that in one of her like first conversations with Karen, she's asking her like what happened or whatever. And Karen's like, oh, I like I left him at the waterfall bar. And Jen's like, no, you didn't. Like we left together. We saw you outside of my sister's house. So I don't know if that is like like what what Karen believed. Like all of her stories now are she like remembers going remembers him going in there. So like

Was she making up a story? Did she not remember in the early days? Is everything a blur? Like, is everyone drinking so much that no one knows what's going on? I don't know.

But she goes looking for 20 minutes, at least like in the, we've got her going in the direction of the waterfall, but then she like makes it back to Jen where they meet up. Jen, meanwhile, in this time, tries calling John's phone a few more times. 508, 509, both deleted later. From 514 to 532, there are a bunch of calls between Karen's phone and Jen's phone and Jen to John's phone.

Those all get deleted as well in Jen's call log. And Karen also tries to call John a few more times.

By 5.46, the three women are at John's house, still trying to call his cell with no luck. And so they all head out at 5.52. They get to the Alberts and at 6.04, Jen makes the call to 911. Now, first responders get to the scene fast. And this is when some of them say that they allegedly heard Karen say, I hit him, I hit him, I hit him. Or like some variation of that.

But interestingly, the defense makes a big point in court to show that nobody put any of this in their reports from that day. Not the police, not the paramedics. This confession that everyone remembers so vividly only gets spoken about later. Which does feel odd that like nobody mentions a confession of any kind. They're not authorized.

arresting her for admitting that she hit him. Well, and if it's not in any notes, it's we're using this confession as that it actually happened, not a misremembering of what she said or what she could have said. And they like pick at this at trial. They're like, this isn't like just like a small detail. You have someone confessing to the crime. How does that not make it into any report? And they're just like, I didn't think it was relevant or like there's a zillion reasons why they say they didn't put it in. But like they swear on the stand it happened and

But the defense is like, did it? Now, the defense says Karen never said that at all. When Karen talks to 2020, she says it was preceded by did and was a question. Did I hit him? But I'm like getting confused about this to begin with, because this seems like one of the things like she has admitted to, like she admits on 2020, even in the beginning of this HBO doc, like she talks about it. But then towards the end of the doc, like I

I got all twisted or I think she's all twisted because she's like, you know, I wonder if if I even said that. Like, it's been so many people's stories. And, you know, I so much was going on. It was so chaotic. Like maybe I just kind of I don't know if these words are her words exactly, but like internalized it and made that my story. So I'm like, wait, we all agreed that you asked, did I hit him? And now we're trying to say we're talking about if the words even came out of your mouth at all. Yeah, I don't know. You have to watch it. I don't know what to make of it.

Well, and didn't she like really early on like tell Carrie on the phone like I think he's dead? Like right off the bat, she goes immediately to John is no longer alive. Maybe he even got hit by a plow or something. She suggests a plow, which is like ultra specific. Yeah. To me, like that's not where my head would go. I'd be like, oh, he passed out at the place that I left him. They've been drinking all night. Is he sleeping it off somewhere? Yeah, definitely.

Like she says when she's asked about this, like she just knows that there's no world he would not come home to his niece and his nephew because she specifically made the threat. I'm not coming home. And she knows he's responsible and wouldn't leave them. So she says, like, if he didn't come home, it has to mean something terrible happened. But she's also kind of accusing him of maybe being with another woman in those voicemails. Right. I know. It doesn't. It doesn't make sense. It doesn't make sense. But again, back to our timeline.

Jen makes some additional calls that don't make a lot of sense with the story we've been told. And then she makes two searches at 6.23pm.

How long does it take to digest food? Which was like, I think, an auto-populated search as she's trying to type how long to die. And then it like, da-da-da-da. And then she has one that's like, how long T.I. die and kicked? Like, again, they're all typos. It's freezing and she's trying to type, but the question is the same. But neither of those searches are how long to die in cold. Which is important here. I think so, but whatever. Yeah.

So they're out on her sister's lawn with her friend dead on the ground. At this point, it makes sense to notify the people inside the house, right? Yeah. So she calls her sister, Nicole Albert, at 607 and 608. Both calls are answered, but only last a few seconds. Both are deleted from Jen's phone log. And this is interesting because Brian and Nicole never come out of the house. Like, the whole time, ever. Right.

And according to all their statements, they were supposed to have been asleep until Jen came into their room to wake them up at 6.35 a.m. So who's answering the calls at 6.07 and 6.08?

Jen says it's just all wrong and those calls weren't answered. Wait, they were or weren't? Jen says they weren't. The data says they were. Pick your favorite. Okay. I know. Even after they were awake, though, like I reiterate, they never came out. They never came out even after we know they were awake. Right. And like some say that they didn't want to be in the way. I mean, Brian is an officer himself, right? Like better to stay put. Let police come to you. Except

They, like, don't? I mean, it's Canton PD that is called to the scene that morning. And Sergeant Michael Lank is one of the first guys there. And he finally goes to talk to the Alberts after Jen McCabe wakes them up. Like, I don't even know if you could call what he does an interview because he talks to them for a few minutes with Jen there. He doesn't record any of it. And he doesn't, like, do any kind of search of the house.

According to Lang's report, he talks to Jen again at 9 a.m. when she calls him back and is like, hey, by the way, I forgot to mention that I heard Karen say she hopes she didn't hit John.

If you ask Jen, though, she called him back over to say, hey, I actually heard Karen say, I hit him, I hit him, I hit him. Either way, everyone's doing this at 9 a.m. Either way, how does no one remember this the right way? Like, this feels extra critical. I know, I know. And again, I go back to there is a lot going on. It feels like something I would remember. I have never been in this scenario. True.

Now, fun fact, I haven't mentioned, you might already know this, a lot of people might know this, but Brian Albert's brother, Kevin Albert, is on the Canton PD force. But if that wasn't already a conflict of interest, Lange, who was one of the first people on the scene, has his own deep ties to the family. In 2002, when he was off duty, he allegedly got into a fight with two other people that Brian's other brother, Chris Albert, was having problems with.

And Chris Albert, by the way, is Colin Albert's dad. So like these are all the same people we're talking about. So like Lank knows this family, but they do eventually recognize there might be some conflict. So they recuse themselves, but also still help out. And this is when they call in the state police. So enter Michael Proctor, who we covered at the top. And he has his own lengthy list of conflicts of interest.

But like I said, Canton's still being a pal. So even though the state police barracks are closer, when Karen's car gets seized that day, it is actually taken to Canton PD's sally port. Apparently, police say there was like more room there. It had heating, whatever. They have pics. It all adds up nicely. Pieces of the taillight missing from the SUV match pieces of the taillight in the snow by John. It's fantastic.

Remember, the prosecution's proof. But we also have the defense saying that she hid her taillight in John's driveway. And what Karen told everyone was that she had a broken taillight, not like a fully busted taillight.

And all the video footage that could or should show that this is true doesn't exist. It's gone. Oh, darn. Well, that's OK. Police say we have a video of when we process the car in the Sally Port of Canton PD. You'll see that we never even go close to the taillight. So we didn't like break it and plant evidence, which is foolishness.

fully the defense theory, by the way, that the taillight evidence wasn't found at the scene at the time of John's body. They don't find it until like 5.30 or 6 that night when like an emergency response team comes to help with the search. Like there's a little bit of conflicting reports on like what time they find the taillight.

But the first crime scene photos documenting pieces of it in the snow show that it's clearly dark outside. And this is like January, New England. So like the sun sets around like 4.55 that day. But it takes kind of a long time before more pieces are found. And they are found over the course of like the next few days. So the defense theorizes that the reason they didn't find it earlier is that they had to wait until they had Karen's car in their possession to get the taillight pieces and then plant them.

So the defense has always thought it was planted. But again, police are like, oh, my God, you guys are being like so dramatic. Look for yourselves. They even played the video in court to show that no one ever goes near the right taillight.

Except in the actual most dramatic, oh my God, moment I've ever seen in like a real life trial, the defense team notices that the writing on one of the cars in frame, it's not even Karen's car, it's like this one that no one's paying attention to. The writing is backwards.

Which means that the entire video has been like flipped. Oh, like mirrored. Inverted, yeah. So when it appears that Proctor is seen standing behind Karen's left taillight... It's actually the right taillight. It's the right taillight. Oh my God.

Now, the problem still is you can't see what he's doing because the camera is on the other side. And there is a camera that would show what he's doing over there. Don't tell me the video is missing. Part of the video is missing. Of course it is. But...

Here's the thing. Why would Michael Proctor frame someone? Sure, he knows the Alberts, but, like, he doesn't know Karen. That's a huge leap. He wouldn't have anything against her. Hmm. Like, he shouldn't have anything against her. Yet that federal investigation found some legit evidence

terrible conduct on his behalf in relation to Karen. And the stuff that they found was like just the stuff he put in writing. Like he had texts with his sister talking about the case very early on. And in one, he said that he hopes Karen would die by suicide. And he wasn't just talking to his family.

Here is Michael Proctor reading texts that he sent about Karen and Brian Albert to a group chat that he had with his high school buddies, and he's reading it here on the stand. And here he is reading a text that he sent to his bosses while supposedly searching Karen's phone for evidence.

No nudes so far. No nudes so far, correct? Correct. And you said that to your bosses. Yes, sir.

Alan Jackson hammers Proctor over these texts, which were sent well before Karen's been charged, by the way. And they are the worst. This guy is the worst. And I think we all should be making a big deal about these text messages from a law enforcement official who has got the lives of people literally in his hands. But for me personally, I did have to roll my eyes a little bit for one reason in particular.

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The person who was lecturing Proctor about the way he viewed women, the way he viewed Karen Reid, was maybe not the right person to stand on that soapbox. Like, I think maybe Alan Jackson should have, like, left that part to his co-counsel, Yannetti, or even, like, there were other, like, lawyers that were working with them, too. Because it was a little hard for me to really buy his outrage and disgust when it wasn't all that long ago that Alan Jackson was defending Harvey Weinstein. Right. So, like...

Tip for trial number two, maybe leave the grandstanding to someone who hasn't been on the wrong side of history when it comes to the Me Too movement. I don't know. What do I know? I'm a podcaster. Still, Proctor defends his investigation. He calls his texts juvenile and regrettable, but says that they didn't have any impact on how he investigated John's death. But why?

Proctor's own texts implied that he didn't really look at anything objectively. I mean, when a friend asked him if the homeowner, meaning Brian Albert, will, quote, receive some s***, Proctor responded, nope, homeowner is a Boston cop too. And only 17 hours into his investigation, when one of Proctor's friends text him, she's f***ed, right? He replied, correct.

But Proctor testifies that he meant the, quote, overwhelming amount of evidence, end quote, already showed by then that Karen hit John. Proctor's texts weren't the only thing Jackson called into question. Proctor had testified under oath that he didn't know any members of the Albert or McCabe families. But when Jackson asked him directly, Proctor admits that the Alberts have been over to his parents' house before.

And that he's even been at his parents' house when the Alberts were there. Oh, and just fun fact, Colin Albert was once the ring bearer in Proctor's sister's wedding. Oh. Yeah, and again, like, it goes deep. Proctor even asked Brian Albert's sister-in-law, Julie, to babysit his son as recently as 10 days before John died. So, like,

They are clearly more than just even acquaintances. Like you're trusting with your kid. They're kind of like just in the same circle. I know. And even after that, Julie and the Proctor's like keep talking. So like it gets kind of weird. Three days after John died, there are texts between Proctor and his wife in which his wife says that she just ran into Julie. And she writes, quote, Julie said when all this is over, she wants to give you a thank you gift.

And apparently Proctor responded that the gifts should be sent to his wife and not him.

So that is who is doing the investigation. And the people who collected all the evidence that they wanted to use to prove this case that this investigator is making, honestly, they didn't do much better. This part is less conspiracy and more just sloppy. To get to John and all the evidence, they used a leaf blower. I'm sorry, what? Yeah, they used it to like blow off all the fresh snow and get down to like...

the layer, like they presumed it was all on the ground. I don't know where John died, which like, yes, I get it, but no, I don't. And it's on the ground where they find all those like clear pieces of glass, which they later assume is from that cocktail glass that he walked out of the bar holding. They also find some like blood in the snow. Obviously they want to collect all of this as evidence, right? Like, oh no, they don't have any evidence bags.

So for some reason, they go knocking on a neighbor's door, not even the door of the homeowner whose lawn they are on, who let me remind you is a cop. No, they just go knocking on some random neighbor's door.

And apparently they ask if they have anything they can use to collect evidence. And that neighbor gives them a like sealed package of red solo cups that they start using to like scoop everything up in. Like red solo cups, like beer pong cups. Fully. But like, don't worry. Once the evidence is in those cups, they store the cups super securely because they put them inside a brown paper grocery bag from a stop and shop. Wonderful. Yeah, I know. And so while we're on the topic, though, of evidence, let's talk the autopsy.

So just a reminder from earlier. So the medical examiner found that John suffered a lot of injuries. We have several abrasions on his right forearm, cuts to the left side of his nose and above his right eye, two inch laceration on the back of his head, multiple skull fractures that caused bleeding in his brain, two black eyes.

Now, he has those injuries on his arm, but he doesn't have any broken bones or fractures from the neck down. And the ruling was that he died of blunt impact injuries to his head and hypothermia. This is what I could never, like, wrap my head around. Like, how are all the injuries so high up if she hit him, assuming he's standing, like, with her car? Well, at the time, the prosecution, or at least in the first trial, was, like, I think, arguing that

that Karen hit him. This sent him like flying back and he maybe hit his head on the ground. Like that is what would cause the gash on the back of his head. In the documentary, I've seen some other people, not the prosecution specifically, but other people saying like another theory could be that like she hit him, the taillight breaks and like that caused a like abrasion in his arm and then he's like disoriented and moves around and then falls. So I don't know what we're going to hear in the second trial, if that's going to play into it or if they're going to stick with what they did the first time.

But the defense says that the reason it doesn't look like other cases where a person was hit by a vehicle was because he wasn't hit by a vehicle.

Some of their last witnesses that the defense calls are crash reconstruction experts who will honestly become a very hot topic down the road here. These experts had been part of the federal investigation and they were presented at the time as impartial witnesses in this case, meaning they said on the stand that they weren't paid by the defense for their testimony. It was completely like unbiased, right? So these experts testify that John's injuries were not consistent with being hit by a vehicle.

The defense argues that John's head injury and black eyes come from some sort of fight and that the marks on his arm weren't caused by being hit by a car at all. Dog bites. The dog bites, yes.

According to another of their witnesses, an expert in emergency trauma, the injuries on John's arm, they say, are likely teeth or claw marks. In their opinion, John had likely been mauled by an animal, possibly a large dog. Which the Alberts had a German Shepherd mix. Right. Chloe. So Jackson argues that at some point that night, before, during, or, you know, after whatever altercation happened at the Alberts' house,

the dog attacked him. And I feel like that's what like has fed into the conspiracy stuff is like they got rid of the dog. I mean, as a dog person, that's impossible to understand. So the Alberts say that they didn't rehome Chloe until four months after all of this, though, and not

because of anything related to John, they say, they said that they sent Chloe to live in Vermont because she had gone after like another neighborhood dog or multiple neighborhood dogs. And I think it's worth noting that like apparently lab techs did not find any canine DNA on swabs from John's sweatshirt, which had tears through it in the spots, like the same spots as the arm cuts. Which like, you know, if like a dog is like coming at you, their slobbery is all get out. Right. So that doesn't really help the dog by argument. Right.

But they did find pig DNA. So experts who testify at trial say that that could have come from a food product, like maybe a pork-based dog treat. Okay, aside, you or another friend like messed up a doggy DNA test for the same reason. Like it came back like completely bovine. Oh, that wasn't me. Yeah, someone did like a dog DNA test and the test came back as like bovine.

not dog because they had to give their dog a treat to do the swab. No way. Oh, interesting. Yeah. So like that, like in my mind, like bears some credence, but also the Alberts sold their home around this same time too, which like,

the combination of the two things, the defense, I think, finds pretty suspicious. Yeah. Nicole says, Nicole Albert says that they had planned to move long before John's death and they had reached out to a realtor in like 2021. And then the sale was finalized in 23. So again, like weird coincidence, they say. And I don't want to make of that. There's a lot of things I don't know what to make of, right? So like the federal investigation, I think that we can like

label this like area of the episode stuff I think is weird but didn't know where to fit in the episode. Question marks. Yeah. So there's just like little bits of things I want to hit on at a high level. And I'll just give you like the bullet points because we got a trial to get two people and I don't want to keep you here till tomorrow. So here are some fast facts. One, the feds found out that Brian Albert destroyed his cell phone a day before he received a protective order to preserve that phone and its contents.

Now, he says this is just a coincidence. He was due for an upgrade, so he traded it in. OK, fine. Been there. Brian Higgins. The phone stuff is harder for me to digest. So he apparently asked another federal agent for advice on extracting phone data. And then months later, drove to a military base, disposed of his phone and destroyed his SIM card. He's a real man.

He claims this was because the target of an unrelated investigation had his contact info. Seems like you could maybe just, like, change your number and not destroy your phone on a military base that state officials couldn't get access to, but, like, whatever. Yeah.

Now, obviously, at some point, this like flurry of texts and calls we had with everyone in this group, like that they were doing during the first day, like stopped. But the defense alleges that this group of conspirators was still in communication in the early days to coordinate and, quote, get their story straight. And they use one example in particular. So on the stand,

Jen reiterates the big beats of the case that we've talked about already. But during her cross-examination, something new comes out. Jen says that on January 30th, so this is the day after John dies, she was with Carrie Roberts, who, reminder, she's the third woman who was there when John was found. Carrie and Jen go to drop Carrie's daughter off at a friend's house, a friend whose father is Canton PD Sergeant Michael Link, who testified about evidence collection at the scene.

And apparently when Carrie and Jen go to the house, Leng's wife came out to talk to Carrie and she got into the car with them and stayed in the car for an hour talking to them about John's death. So this isn't like a quick little chat. No, not at all. And Jackson points to that. Like he says, this is something that Jen never even mentioned until a pretrial meeting in the DA's office. Now, Jen claims that this is just a situation where

Two friends, Carrie and Lenk's wife, were talking about a traumatic event that just occurred. But the defense views this as another example of conversations that Jen and others were having in the aftermath of John's death, where they might have all been trying to, like, get on the same page.

And I want you to remember the defense doesn't have to prove what happened, right? Like the burden of proof is fully on the Commonwealth. But I think that Karen and her team knew that they needed to put forward an alternate theory because her hitting John feels like the obvious answer to most people. So their theory, as I told you before, revolves around the allegation that some sort of fight ensued between Brian Albert, Brian Higgins, and Colin Albert.

And at first, nobody says that Colin Albert was even at the house that night. And there's no phone data putting him there at the house that night because investigators never collected his phone data. But eventually, he tells police that he was there earlier in the night, but he says that he never saw John. And here's another weird little ditty, like...

I told you from the get, prosecutors' theory is that John never entered the house, right? Like, that's been everyone's consistent story. Right. No one saw him after he left Karen's car. So here's this weird thing. So apparently when Brian Higgins testified before the federal grand jury, he said that he might have seen a tall, dark-haired man come into the Alberts' house. And John O'Keefe was a tall, dark-haired man. So a lot of people think that Higgins was drunk.

describing seeing John in the house that night, like just in case it comes up that he was there so he didn't like lie in front of a grand jury. But later when Higgins gets grilled about this on the stand, he says that he could have been talking about maybe the brother of somebody at the party when he said that. But anyways, back to Colin.

At the time of John's death, Colin was still in high school. By the time it goes to trial, he's in college. And he comes to court to testify and says that he had gone to his Uncle Brian's house that night around 10.30 or 11 to celebrate his cousin's birthday. He had a few beers, again, like we're at a cop's house. He's in high school, like not awesome, but whatever. He said he listened to some music, hung out, and then he texted a friend for a ride home and he left around 12.30 a.m.

That friend who picked him up was Jen McCabe's daughter, Allie McCabe. Allie says that she picked Colin up before any of the adults got back from the bar and that she was home from dropping him off by 1230.

But Karen's lawyers have pulled data from the app Life 360, which I don't know if you use that for your kids, but like I'm very familiar with it. Yeah, like every crime junkie knows Life 360, right? You should. Anyways, it basically like it's a tracking app for teens or whatever. And this app shows that Allie was driving around until like 1.30pm.

Now, in court, she just offers like, well, maybe her excuse is like the data is off. She's like, I wasn't connected to Wi-Fi at the time. But that can't be the excuse for everything. The data isn't wrong. Those calls weren't answered. The data is wrong. Like, I wasn't driving around. I know. That's just a blanket excuse at this point. I know. This is what I'm saying about this case. Like, you...

can make sense of like one or two things that are like wonky or like weird, but like all the footage can't be missing. All the data can't be wrong, like all at the same time. Well, and I can't figure out why. Like I still don't get it.

I don't know. I think it's because there isn't a strong one. I mean, they bring up those texts between Karen and Brian Higgins. They kind of suggest that maybe Brian Higgins might have felt like Karen was blowing him off that night. It got under his skin. Like, they've been having this, like, flirtation over texts. They even kissed. Like, it felt like all of this was building to something. But then Karen shows up at the bar he's at with his friends with John. And then she doesn't pay much attention to Brian. Yeah.

Though, I mean, worth noting on the stand when they asked Brian about all this, he's like, whatever. Like, yeah, we texted, but like no hard feelings. It wasn't serious. Like, I don't know. So maybe feelings are just like bubbling under the surface more than anything. And again, I don't even think they're like thinking this is motive. Like he was going after John. I think they're just trying to show some like animosity. Like why would he maybe jump into something else that happened? Yeah.

though they don't say that explicitly. They focus mostly on Colin as the possible, like, catalyst to all of this. And it's important to note that Colin had reportedly had issues with John in the past.

Colin's family lived near John and in the spring of 2020, John's security alarm went off. And when he woke up and he went downstairs, he found Colin and several other teenagers in his front yard. And Colin yelled at John and like apparently had some choice words for him. Now, John never called the police, but Karen says that there was bad blood between Colin and John after that.

Now, Colin says that they never had any beef, but it's the defense's position that Colin had a history of being a hothead and was part of an assault on John that happened inside the Albert house. And that the Bryans then after this brought John out into the snow.

And to, like, try and, like, form this picture, Jackson actually pulls up what he insinuates is proof that Colin threw some punches that night. He finds a photo of Colin out with his friends, like, weeks after John's murder, in which you can see that his knuckles are, like, red and raw. Now, Colin says that he had slipped on ice, which, like...

Everyone's like, at the time, I remember when this came up in trial, everyone's like, how do you, when you fall, like, I've never fallen knuckles first. It doesn't make sense to me. I don't know. And I have a

a problem with this like alternative theory like we know that part of what contributed to john's death was hypothermia and i know like a ton of people aren't on board with what i'm about to say but like i have a hard time believing that a group of people who were either friends with or like barely knew a guy would like take him out to the snow to let him die if something else happened

But I also, like, don't get me wrong that I'm saying, like, I totally believe everything that they're saying. Because, like, I think it's very clear that people are lying. So then the question to me, more than anything, is, like, what are you lying about? Well, and didn't they make, like, a big deal about the Apple health data during the trial? Like, John specifically, like, where he moved and when he moved and all of that. Yes, yes.

I mean, I think everything they put forward about that, like a lot of stuff in this case could go either way.

Because what the data shows is that after 1220, around the time Karen says that she dropped him off, it says that John took 80 steps, which is like half a football field's distance, and then either went like up or down three floors. And that could be because he entered the house. The problem with that is GPS data from his phone apparently shows that he was in the car a half mile away from the Alberts' house when that movement was actually logged.

Honestly, like, I probably should have known this already, but, like, I feel like tech isn't nearly as reliable as I thought it was for tracking stuff like this. Like, this case has made it scary to me, and it's, like, almost like a beware ye future jurors, not just on this case, but, like, any. Well, and I was thinking when you were saying, like, the steps and how long it was, like, my devices think that I am running unnoticed.

marathon because we're doing this and talking because my hands and wrists are moving and it's like yeah oh wow you're getting your steps in and I was like oh dear I know I am not I know so like what does the data mean how does it all come together how does this puzzle fit if it does yeah because like I've spiraled every which way I can about this case like did he go into the house and something happened call it a fight call it an accident whatever and

And then maybe like, did they tell him to like get out of here, not realizing how bad off he was? And then he collapsed in the snow. But like that doesn't explain all of it. Did Karen really hit him accidentally or otherwise? And then the investigation was super sloppy, maybe even corrupt. Proctor trying to make like an easy win. And then everything else was about covering up the nonsense. But that also doesn't really explain everything. Nothing explains all of it.

One of the other pieces that I think is worth mentioning, because it's huge when it comes to the prosecution's case, is one of the things I brought up in evidence that they point to, is the hair that they found on Karen's car that they said links to John, right? Like, this is proof that she hit John with her car. Well, a lot of people are wondering, like, is that...

Or is this more proof that evidence was planted? Because it is a singular hair attached to, like, not even, like, on top of the bumper, but, like, the side back of her car.

And everyone's like, OK, she hits him. She drives to his house in a blizzard, then drives all over looking for him. And then to also still in a blizzard, also still in a blizzard. And then she's driving to Jen's house and then she's back at his house and then she's there and then she's at her parents house. And then they tow her car to the Sally Port. And in that time, yes, maybe the hair froze on. But then they also bring it to the heated Sally Port garage so everything can melt off. And that's the picture they have of the hair is like it's on the car.

And so that's the one thing that didn't melt off. Like, it just seems so unlikely. It seems like magic. It's not impossible, clearly. But like, but is it? I don't know. So if I were a juror, I don't know what happened in the wee morning hours of January 29th. But the way this has unfolded has left so much room for reasonable doubt.

If an investigating agency can do everything I just talked about and secure a conviction, honestly, that's the scariest freaking idea to me. It's scary to let someone get away with killing someone too. Don't get me wrong, but like, my God, we have to set some kind of standard, right? Like, so many jobs have a bare minimum requirement. Like, if you are going to

put someone on trial and take their entire life away, you should have to at least do your job the right way. Like, am I crazy? No, like it seems like an easy ask. But I don't think, I don't know that everyone agrees. I would say some people might, but not everyone because a jury didn't fully agree with me.

So after receiving a fire hose of information for nearly two months, the jury ends up telling the judge that they cannot reach a verdict.

They send a note to Judge Beverly Canone saying that they are deadlocked after three days. She doesn't accept the first one. She's like, this is three days. We've been here for six weeks. Get in there and try it again. They send a few other notes. They send one asking a question. And then on July 1st, 2024, after deliberating for less than a week, they send a final note to the judge that says, despite our rigorous efforts, we continue to find ourselves at an impasse.

And Canone quickly declares a mistrial, citing a hung jury. So prosecutors say that they fully plan to go after Karen again. I mean, clearly there were some people on the jury who saw what they saw. We'll see you back in court, basically. But after this, some people from the jury were like, whoa, whoa, whoa, that's not the whole story.

In the weeks after the trial, Jackson says that at least five jurors approached him, indicating that the jury wasn't hung on all three charges. In fact, they had agreed to acquit Karen on two of the three, murder and leaving the scene with injury or death. It was just the manslaughter while operating under the influence of alcohol charge that they couldn't agree on.

So after they come forward to Jackson and the media, Karen's lawyers moved to have those charges, the ones that they agreed on, thrown out, claiming that, like, the jury had unanimously agreed on those to acquit her specifically of those charges and trying her again would constitute double jeopardy. Obviously, that's not cool with the prosecution. And this fight goes to the state's highest court. But the ruling is the same no matter how far up they go.

The issue is that the jury never wrote that down and submitted that as a verdict. So it wasn't an official verdict. It didn't count. Right. So Judge Beverly Canone's ruling stands, a.k.a. Auntie Bev's. Because, by the way, we haven't even gotten into that potential conflict of interest that Auntie Bev might have in the case. So there's been a lot of talk alleging that she's also cozied up to the Albert and McCabe families. And listen...

There are some maybe receipts here.

So first off, according to the Vanity Fair article on Reed's case, Bev's brother represented Brian Albert's brother when he went to trial for a motor vehicle homicide case. And then he went to jail for like six months. And then there are these screenshots of a text combo between Turtle Boy, he's back again, and who he says was Jen McCabe's brother-in-law, Sean McCabe. Apparently, Turtle Boy asked Sean if the McCabes had a direct line to the judge and

And Sean allegedly responded by saying, quote, Auntie Bev, who's seaside cottage do you think we're going to bury your corpse under later? End quote. Now, the alleged conflicts run so deep that the defense actually asked Auntie Bev or Judge Canone to recuse herself from the case altogether. But she wouldn't step aside.

She says that she did not know Sean and that she had never socialized with any of the witnesses in this case, so there was no lack of impartiality. This is so much. It is, but in the end, she declared a mistrial, right? So here we go again. And even in this new trial, Judge Canone will be the judge again. And here's the thing. Post this last trial and pre this new one, stuff has been just as wild as the last time around.

As of this recording, Karen's lawyers are still trying to argue the double jeopardy claim in federal court. Karen's also been busy. She has been meeting with supporters across the country. She's hoping to raise money for blood and DNA testing to be done on carpeting that was thrown out of the Alberts' home after it was sold. And her defense team has found themselves in the hot seat as well. Judge Canone expressed what she called grave concern over

over the fact that prosecutors say they found evidence that two, what we were told were impartial witnesses, the one who said that John's injuries weren't consistent with being struck by a car. Well, they were actually paid around $23,000 by the defense, even though one of them, who people online are calling crash daddy, he said on the stand that the defense hadn't paid him anything.

Now, technicality maybe, because I guess he was paid a month after he testified to that, but he was paid nonetheless. So, like, I'm side-eyeing everyone in this case, you guys, including Michael Morrissey, the DA bringing the charges against Karen.

It's worth noting that this isn't the only case that his office has handled that people are questioning. He and his office are getting a lot of heat for how they handled the death of Sandra Birchmore. And I could go on for hours about her case, but like, quick cliff notes.

Sandra was part of the Police Explorers program. Oh. Mm-hmm. Which you're going to hear me mention if you come on tour. And in this program, she met a cop who allegedly groomed her when she was a kid, had a sexual relationship with her when she was under 16. Well, he is now accused of killing her while she was pregnant with his child. And the accusation is that he staged her death to look like a suicide. Right.

Morrissey's office ruled that it was a suicide, but federal authorities stepped in years later and indicted the officer on charges that he killed Sandra. So her case is one of like the most egregious examples of abuse connected to the police explorer programs. Like this will be I'm like vowing this will be an episode one day, but like I continue to look into it.

But anyways, Morrissey has been under pressure from all angles as both of these cases unfold in Canton. So for Karen's retrial, the prosecution has brought in someone new. Hank Brennan is coming in to lead the team. Now, this guy represented infamous Boston mob boss Whitey Bulger during his federal trial. So to say that he's a heavy hitter is an understatement. And it's clear that they plan to come out swinging.

In October, prosecutors requested records from Taryn's dad's cell from around the time of John's death, which they say shows alleged proof of her calling her dad at around 1.30 in the morning the night that John died.

Now, police had gotten a search warrant for Karen's phone earlier, but investigators were working on removing, I guess, like privileged conversations she was having with her lawyer before handing the records over to the prosecution. So that's why this is just coming up now. And while we were finalizing this episode, prosecutors dropped the list of who they plan to call to the stand in trial number two. And Karen's dad is now on the list this time. So it seems like they might zero in on those calls.

Now, the federal investigation into John's death and the handling of the case was closed as of March 4th, 2025. The federal investigation loomed over Karen's case for more than a year, but it did not result in any charges, which might be something for the prosecution to use. However, the internal affairs investigation into Michael Proctor wrapped in January, and then he went in front of the Massachusetts State Police Trial Board three times, and

And in March, while they waited on the trial board's decision, his family like broke their silence. They really had not been talking this whole time. But his wife, Elizabeth Proctor, and Michael's sister, Courtney Proctor, released a statement saying that even though his texts were regrettable, same word that he used, he was just venting to friends like during a stressful situation.

They say that their family has been tormented and harassed since those texts went public. And they think the attention on Proctor has been the defense's attempt to distract from the person who's actually on trial. And that's Karen Reed. In the end, I don't think the statement helped because on March 19th, Proctor was fired.

State police said that the trial board recommended that they fire him, and then the state police agreed, citing those very texts about Karen and drinking on the job. His family said that by firing Proctor, the trial board was unfairly exploiting and scapegoating one of their own. And I think, like, no, we probably should just hold people accountable. Just a thought.

Now, we reached out to a whole lot of people in this case, like scrolling through our reporter Taylor's call log. It looks like scrolling through a Boston area phone book. But the only one who responded was Greg Henning, who is representing Brian and Nicole Albert and their kids. He said that he would send us a statement and he did. So, Brent, I'm going to have you read it.

The Alberts identified a real estate agent and prepared to sell their home months before the death of John O'Keefe. This information, along with the location and history of their dog, was provided to and investigated by law enforcement, including the U.S. Attorney's Office. The Alberts had nothing to do with the death of John O'Keefe. There's no conspiracy. Any suggestion otherwise is fabricated bulls**t.

Now, we've told you a lot about the case against Karen Reid in this episode. But I do want to make sure that John's name isn't forgotten. Like, this is becoming about Karen so much and about the police department as a whole. But at the center of all of this, where this all started, was with John's death. And no matter who killed John or how he died, there is a loving family that misses him.

And that actually is one like beautiful part of the documentary early on in episode one. They play home videos of him. And like, I feel like I got to see who he was in like a completely different way than this like 2D version we've gotten of him so far. So before we wrap up, I want to tell you a little bit more about John.

So John, known as Johnny or JJ by his family and friends, grew up in Braintree, Massachusetts. He's one of three children in a middle-class Italian and Irish family in a middle-class Italian and Irish town just outside of Boston. He graduated from Northeastern University in Boston, and then he went on to earn his master's degree in criminal justice from UMass. And he was the kind of guy who never missed opening day at Fenway Park.

John had been a Boston police officer for 16 years and was loyal to his fellow officers. And he especially loved being an uncle to his niece and nephew. And he became their guardian after his sister died of brain cancer and then their father died of a heart attack.

John's niece and nephew have been left to mourn another parent figure, and they're now being raised by John's parents, who, after the mistrial, filed a wrongful death lawsuit against Karen. They also filed it against the Waterfall Bar and C.F. McCarthy's, seeking $50,000 in damages for pain, suffering, and emotional distress. But a judge has put all of that on hold until Karen's criminal trial is over.

At its core, this is a case that presents the question of whether a crack in an SUV taillight is cut and dry evidence of murder, or if it exposed a crack in the system, a system that was ripe for a cover-up that spanned agencies across Massachusetts. Now, I've talked a lot about the details in this case and how those details have been interpreted by a million different people a million different ways. I know there's a lot to process. I mean, even the actual jury on this case couldn't see a clear path forward.

But I know us crime junkies always love to go a layer deeper. And so I want us to be locked in on this retrial together. And that's happening here in the next couple of weeks. So I want to try something new this time.

We just started a new Crime Junkie Jury page on YouTube where we are going to be streaming the trial and discussing what goes on every day with you. And you're going to have Brandi Churchwell there. Like I said, she's like an expert in this case, watching along with you, explaining the things that are happening. So don't feel like you have to come in as an expert. This is your way to like get in and follow what's going on in real time. And you're not going to want to miss it because I have a feeling we're in for another long ride.

You can find all the source material for this episode on our website, CrimeJunkiePodcast.com. And you can follow us on Instagram at Crime Junkie Podcast. We'll be back next week with a brand new episode. Crime Junkie is an Audiochuck production. So what do you think, Chuck? Do you approve?

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