Ep. 116: Spending Money to be a Better Shot with a Bow?
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Welcome back to another episode of Cutting the Distance. Today I'm here with my good buddy, Corey Miller. I met Corey when he owned XXX Archery down in Oregon. And then since then, he's moved to Montana. He ran away from Western Washington and now works for Darton Archery, Black Eagle Archery. Excited to have him on the show today. How have you been, Corey? Been great. You know, glad...

I don't know if you heard, I guess I was doing my tour through the beautiful state of Oregon and Washington. I was in Kansas, but I've seen pictures of the beautiful... People wanted your bows in the back of your truck more than you did. Yeah, they broke my windows out and took my bows. But other than that, it just reminded me why I wanted to live in Montana and just kind of be left alone out here.

Yeah, and then when you came to help get my boat set up, you drove it all the way from Montana to Washington. We got it all set up, and I think we had three inches of rain that day. Yeah, it was. That was a good reminder of how much it used to rain here. Yeah, it's actually, it's just barely starting to snow here. So I'll take the snow over the rain any day. Yeah.

So no, we've, you know, I, I was always just, I would say a bow hunter. I never knew anything about bows. I would say I still can't really set my bow up, but you know, back, back in the old days, you would just go to the, you know, we had George here and I don't even remember what, do you remember what his shop was originally? Oh, the one on 12 there? Yeah. On Jackson highway. So I had a local, was it the archery hut or the archery house? Archery house at archery house. So,

you know i grew up as a as a rifle muzzleloader hunter and so when i got into archery you know you buy a bow back then it was pick a bow off of the front page of the you know uh the cabela's magazine right and it was mail order i didn't know that that wasn't the way you're supposed to do it they would really prefer if you went and bought a bow off of their off of their rack and so i had to find somebody to set it up evidently you can't just you know put a put a rest on everything on and

So I did that for a couple of years and, you know, through the Internet, the explosion Internet realized that Corey was down there at Triple X Archery, went down there and really started. I wouldn't say became a student, but started to pay more attention. Like, does this matter? Do I need to focus on this? And Corey was the one that kind of, you know, he's got an uncanny way of letting you know, like Jason spending time.

spending this on that rest isn't going to make you shoot more or shoot better or spending this much more money on a site. Because in my mind back then, I was like, well, obviously the better this or that is going to make me a better shooter. And Corey was pretty upfront. He's like, why don't you just spend more time shooting? Or why don't you do this and that? And so that's really what I want to jump into today a little bit is

What matters for a hunter? What matters for a target archer? When I look at a bow, you've got your bow, then you've got your sight, your rest, your stabilizer, you've got your release, you've got your arrows. There's just a few things that you can control. Corey's always did a good job. I've been able to listen to him interact with customers, interact with

people that are on his staff that aren't on his staff and I kind of like the way he approaches it so I'm excited to have you on here and really just kind of talk through archery and maybe reduce it down to maybe new people in archery or people that have been in it for a long time that maybe aren't the greatest shots or you know and what really matters and what they should probably focus on more so than not.

Yeah. You know, it's definitely, most definitely learning how to shoot a bow is top priority. And at that point, it doesn't matter if you've got the most expensive or the cheapest bow. If you don't know how to shoot it, you can only shoot to your ability. And, you know, for the most part, most of the bows today will outshoot most of us archers.

So they're that good. They're that consistent. I mean, we've really pushed everything as almost as far as we can push it. You know, cam material, string material, riser material, you know, all that stuff has gotten better and more consistent. So learning how to shoot is priority. Yeah, yeah.

Yeah, so I'm going to pause us just for a second. I'm going to jump into just like three questions that I get that maybe I'm not the appropriate one to answer. So I'm going to jump in. This is going to be your Pendleton Whiskey Q&A session. So I'm going to throw three questions at you, Corey, and kind of see what your opinion is. And it kind of gets us into our conversation, but just some questions that I'm...

you know, given and maybe not the right one to answer. And number one, you know, me and you do, you know, seminars, clinics, you know, we both, we, the last couple of times we've did it, we've been at our, our buddy, you know, Ryan Lampers, you know, his hunt summit and,

Um, and, and Joel Turner's there and, and he gets into this like mental side of shooting, which I try to completely block out because I don't want to get target panic. I'm so competitive that I don't want to try to hit a perfect circle all the time. So I've always kind of blocked out everything, Joe, I like Joel, but I've blocked out everything he tries to teach. Cause I don't want to get inside my own head. Um,

in your opinion and and not as a target archer i i believe that 99 of the people that listen to this podcast 99 of the people that pick up their bow are just strictly bow hunters but what should you be thinking of as you're shooting should you come up with a routine should you just be thinking about aiming your bow and you know squeezing your trigger like in your opinion what should that process be or look like for most guys yeah i mean honestly i think um

There is kind of a bridge of target archery to hunting, you know, as far as nerves of kind of getting used to shooting amped up and a little nervous. But yeah, I used to go through definitely a shot process. And my main thing was for me is I just kept simple shots.

Look through the peep. Cause I, so many times I've watched guys just draw back and anchor eyes wide open. They forget to even look through the peep and, you know, they see the, the site housing start to fill up with hair and they're just yanking the trigger, you know, so trying to keep, keep a shot process, keeps your mind occupied. I think a little bit better. Um,

So I do believe in both sides of, you know, kind of the, a lot of the stuff that Joel's talking about and also keeping it simple. But ever since I've moved to Montana, me personally, like I used to shoot tournament wise, I think, you know, very competitively and very well. When it would come to hunting, it was a different thing.

a whole different deal for me because of the heartbeat. And so I never felt like I executed shots like I do on rubber animals or, or paper targets. So being that I'm in Montana and I get to shoot a lot of whitetails,

I think 100%, I've gotten so much better. I've gotten so much more comfortable of putting a pin on an animal and then going through my shop process. So unfortunately, a lot of us only get an opportunity once a year or maybe once a couple of years to put the pin on the animal. So going through a shop process is going to help as much as it can. But experience really helps.

But there's just cold bull killers that can't really hit paper. But they break the hunting thing down really simple. You're more of that. You point to where I need to put an arrow to kill it, and that's it. And you don't overthink that. You just pretty much draw back. It's got to be there and touch it off. Yeah.

And that's for me, you know, and why I try to like block out the mental game. We're going to get into hunting versus target accuracy and what's required. But for me, I didn't want, you know, I shoot a matrix target and it's got a six inch hex in the middle. Right. And, and I, I, as long as I'm in that and maybe I should put more pressure on myself to be a better archer, but, and I do. Okay. Right. I'm not the world's best archer, but I shoot pretty good for the most part.

But I've never put enough pressure on myself to always hit dead center of the white. You know, like a target archer would need to have to do it 20 yards over and over and over. Like, if I'm an inch and a half off, hey, it's okay. Like, we'll clean that up next time. Or we'll hold a little tighter. Or, you know, maybe it was the 30th shot of the practice session and I'm getting a little bit tired. So I've really...

not over complicated the mental side because i've i've seen people get target panic i don't truly understand it but i my my understanding is that if i try to over focus on being perfect it's going to create that because i'm going to try to force a shot and i'm going to try to do these things yeah exactly i've seen so many new archers come in get a bow set up and shoot really really actually really well i mean i mean not like professional well but i mean really well and

And then a month later, they come in and they've got target panic. And it seems like majority of that is because they try too hard. They start overthinking it like, okay, I'm going to get this one right in the middle. And so they really overthink the shot process. And next thing you know, they've got the old panic. Yeah.

So sometimes just being dumb is best when it comes to shooting a bow. I'm built for this archery thing. But yeah, as far as what I think about as shooting, I'm similar to you. I've made it very rigid, structured thought process. So I'm going to draw my bow back. And I even think as soon as I start to put tension on my release, draw smooth. Because it's

As a hunter, I don't want an arrow to bounce off the rest or I don't want like a hard in the valley. So I'm already thinking like draw smooth. Don't let this animal see you do this. You know, and if you took it a step back farther, like it doesn't even have anything to do with a bow hunter, but I'm already thinking like, when can I draw and then making it smooth? So I kind of get away with drawing now. Can I make it smooth? And then similar to you, I used to have a bad, I would look through my peep. I've never not looked through my peep, but I would maybe not center the peep on

on the, you know, I shoot a Montana black gold. So now I make sure to, to halo my peep with my center housing. So that's a consistency thing. I've always got my, my pins completely centered in just, they just barely fit inside the peep size that I select. And then I, I glanced down at my bubble and sometimes me and my bubble, this is where

you know, things can go a little sideways. Cause if I, you know, in a hunting situation, if I'm on a 30 degree side hill, I'm like, I don't believe you. And being able to shoot enough with you during 3d, like,

Like I'll sometimes split it like, all right, I'm way out, but I'm going to go about halfway and then shoot what I feel is comfortable because shooting all the way back to level is completely uncomfortable. And so for me, for my confidence and just shooting enough, I usually like do a half bubble where I feel like it's comfortable. And then I go into my aiming process. So I've, I've got everything aligned. I've got my bubble where I think it should be. And then, you know, go through my, my, you know, ranging process. And a lot of times, um,

I may not have ranged exactly where the animal is. So now I'm back to thinking why I'm in my peep. Like, is that at the same spot you've ranged? Do I need to add or take away and then slowly start to squeeze my trigger? And when I say slowly, I also, which is probably frowned upon, I've also got the ability to force my shot, which some people can say is good or bad, but

As a hunter, you know, and talking with you, Corey, like sometimes you need to make the bow go off. If you're doing everything else right, it's still going to be okay, and I've practiced that way. But I'll also force a shot a little bit if needed. And so that's my process, whether it's right or wrong, but it's very mechanic. And, you know, for all situations, I do the same thing over and over and over. Yeah. And I think the biggest, you know, like a lot of people think, you know, just punching the trigger is bad. It's not good.

Sometimes the most consistent thing for some folks, there are definitely some of the top shooters in the world are punchers. They command shoot. You know, one of the best quotes that one of those guys ever gave me was, I just got to get the pin there. You're trying to keep it there. And which, which made sense, you know, to me, but my brain doesn't work that way. If I start commanding the trigger, you know,

My aiming goes away. And so it's not so much about me just punching the trigger, but then I can't get the pin anywhere near the target that I want to shoot because then I've lost all the control on the function of the release. And so for me, I have to go through a shot process on activating the release, which is

Which helps me with my aim, and the aim is the most important thing. So if I'm not putting the pin anywhere near there and I'm locking low, and that's where the dangerous side of target panic is, is when the guy can't put the pin anywhere near the dot. Whether or not he gets it there and he instantly swipes it away and gets down below it and sits there and then does the drive-by shooting. And that's when they're yarding up and trying to punch the trigger at the same time. That's when command...

commanding the trigger is, is at its worst. If you're, if your pen is there and you help it, it's not the end of the world. So why we're here, I was, I have this question for our discussion later, but I feel like it's a good time to add it in. Cause I've always been interested. Like if you took like a Bodhi Turner or like your, if I could somehow equip a red light, a laser light that we could all see, um,

Like how much movement should a shooter, because that's the thing I struggle with. Like I'm sitting here at full draw, like trying to pull through. And I've always, I've found that the, you know, if I'm, if I'm actively pulling, I'm not like a passive shooter, but if I'm actively engaged and,

My pin is dancing right from a, from a five to a 10 and it swings through the 10 and then we might be low left and then it might be, I'm overcorrect and we're going top right. And you're just kind of hovering. Like I've always just assumed guys like Matt Schmitz or Bodie or guys that are good shooters, like,

Is that damn pin just like sitting over the 10X the entire time and not moving? Or are those guys fighting with the same demons that I do? Like, is this thing bouncing everywhere? Well, that's the thing is we can never see what goes inside the brain while they're aiming. So whether or not a Bodie Turner sight picture is the same as yours, I

No, it's not. I mean, those guys aim extremely well. But when you look, if you were to look through their eyes, they're still seeing movement. Even though when we stand back and we watch them, we're like, man, that guy's rock solid. He's still seeing movement. The difference is he's okay with that movement. He's learned to trust that where a lot of us feel like we need to hold perfectly still and you don't, you know, because...

The pin, if you're staring at what you're trying to hit, you're always trying to work your way back to that spot. So it's okay if it moves. You just don't want these big dips, big violent moves. But if it's humming out there and it's just kind of dancing around, you'd be amazed on how much if you just keep trusting that process and shoot that shot.

it's, it's going to go there. It surprised me a little bit. And I always hated the idea that if you're just constantly adding, you know, more back, back tension, you're slowly squeezing through your release. But I'm like, what if this thing accidentally goes off on that? Like low left, you know, when you're going away, but it surprisingly does come back. But I, I'm more confident in the way that I think that if I can somehow force that to go off as we're coming back to the center and it's somewhat controlled, I've always got

I don't know whether it's 60%, 70% of the pressure I need to get my release to go off. So I'm always – it's not like a huge jerk within the shot or a huge change. It's just a little bit more. Well, the one thing with aiming, though, too, is it's not only is it the setup of the equipment, but it's also the setup in your shot process. Going back to learning how to shoot a bow is so important. Learning how to shoot a bow is also learning how to aim a bow.

And so you will find as you start to push toward the target and pull into the stops, that pin can, the movement will, will minimize. It'll, it'll start to reduce dramatically. You know, so if I'm pushing at,

you know, it's less likely that the pin can go some other direction if I'm going, I'm pushing it forward toward the target. And same thing with pulling. So that initial setting up into the shot and how much do I build into the back wall to get the pin to minimize its movement. And then now you're activating the release during that time. But

But yeah, we all move. Don't overthink that side of it. So, you know, as a hunter yourself, what,

In your opinion, what should a shooting session look like? Is there an ideal one or is it different for everybody? Or should a guy go out and shoot 20 random arrows? A lot of my sessions look like, all right, we're going to shoot five from 20, five from 30, five from 40, five from 50 and call a night. Is there a number that builds better muscle memory or is there just no standard? Part of me, the functionality of a bow is like riding a bike to me. I mean, I haven't rode a bike.

In three years, if I got on, I'm not going to crash. I'm not going to fall over. It's not that hard. It's the mental side of it, like the repetitive, like looking through the site, seeing movement, trusting movement, how much movement, and activating the release. So it depends on what you're trying to work on. And I think that's where a lot of people make mistakes is they call practice the amount of arrows they shoot.

And if you're not practicing something, it's just like any other sport. If you're a wrestler, you're working on certain moves. If you're a baseball player, you're working on footwork, throwing, stance, you know, movement. You're breaking everything down. And it's the same thing with archery. If you really want to get good at it, you break down certain things and you practice those things for those days. So depending on what you're trying to accomplish, but just shooting arrows does not make you a better archer.

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It's about finding a place to hunt, fish, explore, or simply sit by a campfire and listen to the crickets. So head over to land.com today to turn one day into today. Because trust me, there's nothing quite like the feeling of standing on your own piece of earth. I just noticed, especially when I pick up a bow, or right now since I'm so far away from big game season, even my whitetail hunt, I stopped shooting my bow for that two months, right? And then you get to the whitetail rut and you're like, oh,

pins moving more my you know i'm not as trained you know i fatigue faster um and that's what i i'm just out there trying to you know because i i hesitate to say this but for me i i shoot the same whether i pick up my bow for the first time of the year or whether it's the day before archie elk season like i i don't become that much more accurate like no and typically like i start out more accurate than i end

Because I start overthinking stuff the longer I start shooting, you know, you know, especially like we're transitioning into target world right now. And so usually the first week or so it's like, man, my expectations aren't there. So I actually shoot fairly well. And then all of a sudden I start thinking, okay, I'm going to try a little bit harder and then, and then the wheels fall off. Yeah. Yeah. That's in my sessions will be, you know, as an archery hunter, uh,

I might go out and only shoot three arrows, but I'm going to try to set my stopwatch and hold the bow for a minute and a half and still execute like a good shot. You know, like you said, maybe working on, maybe that's not teaching me anything, but it's just letting me know like, all right, you're okay. But what, what that does can teach is also fatigue, which is going to, which is going to also help see a little bit more movement. And then you can trust more movement in that shot process.

Um, you know, so for me, like if you're going to, there's certain things of, of just even practicing aiming. And if you have a 3d target, the best thing to do is just to walk around and say, okay, where, where do I need to point on this animal to kill it?

You know, is it tucked up front? Is it coming back from the third rib back? You know, not necessarily we're looking at scoring rings, but looking at angles of how would I address that? And then working on just drawing back and pointing the pin on it. If it's working on execution of shot process, yeah.

I like shooting up close or shooting at big dots. I want my brain to say it's okay to put the pin in the dot. It's okay to see the movement. It's okay to activate the release as I see movement. So that's all reinforcing positive stuff by shooting up close and shooting at bigger dots. A lot of people think, you know, shooting at smaller dots.

for some people maybe that does help but for me it's it's the trust factor and and not getting anxiety about trying to hold somewhere so um i like shooting big dots gotcha yep up close uh we'll get we'll get into that on my side a little bit on hunting versus target what accuracy is really required uh to go out there on shooting the big dots or pie plates for me um

last question um is a new hunter what distance should i prepare for like you know you got these guys making 100 yard shots everyone's social media like 300 yard shots now or 400 yard shots it's like realistically where should you set your sight tape up to how much time should you spend shooting there and then realistically we can both answer like the majority of your shots should be well under that unless you're out in open country letting them fly

That's kind of a bad question. You know, I mean, because honestly, like with social media right now, I see so much fighting and arguments everywhere.

And at the end of the day, a lot of this stuff is morals up to you, your equipment that you want to use, your distance that you want to shoot, the animal size that you want to kill. All that stuff is up to you. And I don't care what anybody else's opinion is. My personal opinion, I haven't shot an elk over 40 yards in probably 15 years. Farthest shot I've taken in those last 15 was an antelope at 52 yards this year. Um,

everybody's going to be different and whatever those decisions that you make, you have to live and die by those. So we've all lost animals. I'm pretty sure, you know, and, and it sucks and none of them make it any better. Um,

But I know for me personally, if the little voice in my head is questioning whether or not I should try to attempt this distance or this shot and I lose an animal, it burns more because I knew better. It's a hard question for me to even say. Yeah. And it's all moral and ethics. But as far as like the practice side of preparing animals.

Like shooting at 80 yards doesn't make you any better of an archer than shooting at four as long as your groups are half the size, right? You know, there are more environmental... In a way, I mean, you know, sometimes like I like shooting practice and stuff. I tend to shoot better at longer distances sometimes than I do say it, you know, 40 or 30 yards because my expectations go up so much more. So I...

I have less expectation at these longer distances, and it seems like the sight sits better and shots break better. But shooting long distance does amplify the mistakes, but you also have to be smart enough to understand what those mistakes are. And then you also have to be honest in those mistakes of why am I missing?

Is it because my, my movement is so bad or is it because my tune is bad or is it because I'm punching the release? You know, so there's, it will definitely show you some stuff, but you also got to be smart enough to understand what it's showing you to fix it. Gotcha. But definitely, you know, the longer you shoot, the further distances everybody will say, the closer shots seem easier. I don't know. They all can mean something. So the more it means something, the harder the shot is. Yeah. Yeah.

No, no, I, that was a tough question. And, and, you know, it gets into the moral and ethics of it, which is, you said only the, the hunter or the archer can, can, you know, answer that what's good for them and what they should prepare for it. Cause at the end of the day, it's all on them, the shot they decided to take on a live animal. Yeah. And so sometimes, you know, sometimes the negative side of that is shooting target wise at long distances can give some guys some false hope.

And there again, it kind of goes back into that moral thing of that guy's decisions. But we all know, we all can agree that the further the distance, more things can happen. That animal can turn, that animal can take a step, the wind can blow. There's just, there's a lot of things that can happen at longer shots. Yep.

Well, thanks for jumping in and answering those Pendleton questions and answers. Once again, if you guys have questions for myself or our guests, feel free to email them to us at ctd at phelpsgamecalls.com or send us a message on social media, and we'll do our best to get them in here. So now we're going to jump into the conversation I wanted to have. If you sit around a bow shop long enough or if you cruise the Internet for long enough,

It seems like everybody's trying to buy their way to be in a better shot or buying their way into more X's, I guess you could say, on the target. So I'm going to open this up. Is there a way to spend money to become better, or is it truly in the mechanics of your shot or your practice or your mental side of the game? Hmm.

Best money spent is probably coaching, which 90% of us never do. Equipment, there's certain equipment I definitely think that you can purchase that can help. Release aid, one of them. Can we dive into coaching? Not to interrupt you, but let's dive into coaching a little bit. So like

For me, as a guy that plays football, basketball, baseball, in my mind, there's all this stuff I can coach you on. There's so many different aspects. An archery coach, is it literally them watching you shoot and making corrections? Are there certain things you should be doing? Like you had mentioned earlier, when you practice, you should be practicing everything.

on improving certain things. So what does an archery coach look like? Yeah, there's going to be different levels of that, of what your expectations are as an archer. So if it's like, I am a brand new archer and I need a coach to start me from the basics, from my foot, my stance, to how I grip a bow, my posture, my head alignment, my release alignment. There's that type of coach. It's more of a form coach.

And then there's more of a coach for the mental side. After you've kind of gotten that side down, then it kind of goes into the mental side of things. So it depends on what your expectation of being an archer is and where you are as an archer. So learning the good fundamentals of proper draw length. The unfortunate thing is that everybody on the internet is a coach, right?

And every one of them will tell you what you're doing wrong. And I feel like a lot of these people like to tell you what you're doing wrong. So that makes them sound like they're educated and know what they're talking about. If I can point out everything you're doing wrong, I've never seen anybody really ever get on there and point out all the good things someone's doing. And I think a lot of it is because they really don't know. And so they, it's always the same thing. You're drawing too long. You're gripping the bow and you're punching the release.

It's the same always over and over and over and over. So I think the other problem is there also is a lot of archers that want to help other archers. And so you can get overwhelmed with a lot of information and sometimes it's good. But if I had any advice to anybody is either find a coach and if you can't find a coach in your area,

Try to go to some league nights and find a good archer who has time and who is willing to maybe help you and stick with one person, one person. And because you will get bombarded by 10 other people telling you something different at the end of the day, listen to one person and you're going to be so much better off. Gotcha.

Okay. All right. I'll let you keep rolling back through the equipment now. So then in the equipment side, I definitely think a release on how a release functions goes back into that mental side of shot execution too. So having a release that you're comfortable with

Um, so a lot of cheaper releases run on springs. So there, there's a lot more travel into the triggers. So if you are a guy trying to learn how to do back tension and pull through a shot, you're feeling, you're feeling that trigger starting to move, move, move. And every time that thing's starting to move, that anxiety of the shot happening starts doing increase where you get into a high, uh,

quality release, whether or not be an index release, Carter, like Mike's, have seers that you actually engage a seer, which gives you a trigger with no travel.

And that's where most of your thumb releases buttons are that way. They have a sear that you engage, you cock it, you're setting the hammer, the sears, and then you can, you can set that tension to what feels good for your brain. Some guys like a real heavy trigger. Some guys like a lighter trigger. You know, for me, it's kind of that medium. I want to be, it's not scared of touching the barrel, but I want to know that I actually have to

pull on that or push on that barrel to get it to fire. So a release definitely can, you can buy some of that in that. The next thing would probably be an arrow rest because the arrow rest is something that's probably moving. I think where you overspend, definitely a hundred percent is on the site. I'll get hate for this one probably.

I can't see spending the dollars on a lot of the sites. I think target wise, yes, I can, I can justify some of this stuff, but hunting wise, there's a lot of that stuff is, is overrated for hunters. You know, for me personally, I don't shoot past 40 yards. I don't need a lot of that stuff. It gives me something to point with as long as it's sturdy and,

That's all I care about. Yeah. I mean, some of these sites are $800. They don't even range fine for you. And then you get the ones that do range fine for you. I don't even know where those are at anymore, but it's like, man, it's just crazy expensive. And I was humbled because I've got a movable site, right? So our buddy, Matt Schmidt, shows up to my house. He wants to learn how to elk call one day. And evidently, he's going to teach me how to shoot. I didn't know I was signed up for that. But the guy shoots...

what was it? Seven or eight fixed pins. He, he, you know, he had a seven and then added some other pins, do it or something. And like, so I'm out here trying to dial to the exact range and he's just out there and I'm like, all right, evidently the slider doesn't matter. You know, he's just, and, and so it's kind of enlightening. And if you think about it, we talked about it as long as your pins not haloed and there's not, you know, it's bright and it's got enough fiber optic hanging out of it. Like it's literally just a fixed, uh,

It's a fixed diameter of a glow. Like it's got some bright light at a 0.019 or it's got a bright light at 0.009. As long as that thing's solid and doesn't, I think you might be willing to spend more on a site as a hunter that you know, like, all right, it's fairly durable, right? I want aluminum housing. I don't want plastics. Other than that, like for the last, until someone stole my site, I didn't have third axis leveling on it. I didn't want it. I didn't need it.

Um, I shoot two pins 2040 and it's also a, it's a, that gap for me, 2040 on an elk is, is actually a range finder. It's, it's the back to the belly of an elk at 50 yards. So if I'm at full draw and something boogers and, and I'm still panning over on that elk,

I can look at that gap of the pins and I know if he's inside the shooting range or not. And then by that, I know where my hold is with that 40 yard pin. So I like to keep it simple on, on that, you know, with Matt, with having all those pins, but Matt's, you know, a world champion pin shooter. It's where he really cut his teeth on, on learning how to stack pins, gap pins. And, you know, he can, he can shoot all those pins without,

To me, it's too much in my sight window. Too confusing to me. So then you've got what I would consider your sight and your rest seem to be like your two big accessories. And then you've got the minor accessories. You've got your stabilizers. You've got these other... Are those... In my mind, they're just a distance with a set amount of weight, right? And not to discredit any of these companies out here making great stabilizers, but it's like, all right, I've got a 10-inch stabilizer.

rod with four ounces of weight or i've got an eight inch rod with 12 you know whatever it is or a sidebar this or that like those are really just to to set the shooter up to to minimize movement and kind of balance that bow out correct yep um there's a lot of people that buy them because they look cool uh back in the day i mean this a stabilizer kind of went to a dampening system

you know, the, they were a lot of rubber. Um, they weren't really much carbon. They, they didn't really have much weight adjustability and it was more of it. It took vibration out of a bow. And so people, you know, really took to having a stabilizer and then they've transitioned over to more of just a carbon rod and then the ability to add or take off weight to the tip of it. And, um,

The bows have gotten so dead in the hand that, you know, it's really not a dampener and it shouldn't be a dampener. It should be something to balance a bow, to slow the aim down. But at the end of the day, most of your hunting bars are kind of all the same. I mean, there's not a lot of...

physical weight that we're putting on it so we're not really putting a lot of force on that bar as far as if it's a soft carbon or or super stiff carbon so there gotcha there there's not a whole lot of difference so you think you can you know you can your money can be well spent on a good on a good rest and maybe you know not needed uh you know as far as you know types of stabilizers maybe even types of sites so um let's get into the the bow itself like is there is

Is there a point where there are bows that will help you shoot better? Or is that really individualized and customized? Like, you know, brand X, Y, Z may help me shoot better brand X, Y, Z might not help you shoot better. Or are we to a point where technology and advancements are all these, these bows are all going to shoot from the $400 entry level bow up to the, you know, $2,000 carbon deluxe. Yeah, no, I mean, there, there is, and there isn't, you know, the, to me, like,

Some of the grips, grip angles, grip position in a bow is important to me. Cam draw cycles is important to me. Cam back wall is important to me. Those are the big keys for me. Some of the bows are definitely lighter or different material carbon. I just kind of chuckle when people say carbon is warmer to the touch.

It is, but I can buy a lot of hand warmers. So, you know, I don't know on that. I don't feel like you do. Well, I mean, there are some bows that will skimp to save cost where they start running a little bit more polymer stuff into it, such as maybe a polymer limb pocket or polymer mods. And even that...

If I had a choice, I would take aluminum over polymer. But, I mean, we build guns and stuff out of polymer. So I think polymer, there's different grades of plastics. So some of it's not terrible. But at the end of the day, is a $2,000 bow going to put a bigger elk in front of you than a $500 bow? No. Yeah.

So, so I'm going to boil this down to like an extreme example. So if I took the, you know, the very first time I had you set up a boat was an old Martin Omen too, right? No, it wouldn't have been an Omen. That's a PSE. It was a Onza. Onza. Yeah. Yeah. There you go.

Yeah, it was a three-letter word or a four-letter word to start with an O. So I brought a Martin Onza 2 down to Corey. So if I shot horrible with a Martin Onza 2, is me fast-forwarding 20 years in technology, picking up...

you know, Darden's newest bow or Matthew's newest bow or prime's newest bow. Am I going to instantly shoot better going? Is technology moved that much within the bows or is it, is it like, no. And I know your answer to this is like, you should probably just practice with either one of them more. Well, I mean, we, we killed animals with all that old stuff. Is it easier today? Yes.

The bows are easier to tune. We have more options to tune. We have more arrows to tune with. We have better broadheads to tune with. Everything has gotten better. String material has gotten better. String material is not constantly moving. On those older bows, I mean, man, you were constantly chasing the tune of that bow because it was going in and out with timing.

Uh, the cam systems were, were pretty much, you know, a two cam or a solo cam problem with the solo cam. When that string moved the whole knocking point, everything shifted on a two cam bow. You know, the timing went out. So you had the, the cams weren't in sync with each other. So you had, you know, bad arrow flight because of that today with string material has gotten much better.

bows have gotten much easier, more let off, better holding the walls are firmer. So yes, you would shoot better from a new bow today from an old bow, but

Do you need to spend $2,000 versus $600, $700? I hunted with our mid-priced pointed bow. I love that bow. It's a fun bow to shoot. It has our same cam. It doesn't have all the tuning features, but I'm an experienced archer of knowing how to tear a bow apart and put it back together and make a bow tune out to me. So that part wasn't an issue for me.

If I didn't know as much or have access to a good pro shop, a bow that has some tunability features such as a lot of the new bows today, then that's probably good money spent. Gotcha. And then the external component that your arrow – you talked – hit on it a little bit, your arrows. Yeah.

is you know there's people make 007 005 003 001 like are you know spending twice as much on a 001 arrow versus an 005 or is does that matter or 99 of us out there not going to be able to see the difference between where a five and a one hits

Well, I mean, a human hair is four thousands. So when we talk in a narrow, that's an O three to an O one, that's half of the human hair thickness of straightness differences. I don't think that we honestly can shoot that. It is a feel good thing. It is. It's one of those things where I think if you have money,

and it's not financially hurting you and it's not financially taken away from tags and, and other things in your life, then, you know, definitely buy some old ones. I, I just went out and shot four white tails with an Oh five straight arrow. Didn't, they didn't die any better or any less. I, I don't, I don't think, I don't think the majority of us can out shoot it. It is a feel good thing. And, and,

A lot of times now, if you take your time when you're building arrow, you know, you might, you might end up cutting both ends. You, you don't get that choice, you know, and with being a long draw, you're only maybe cutting a half an inch or an inch off of an arrow shaft. So for you, it probably makes a little bit more sense to, to get a straighter arrow because the longer that arrow, the more that does come into play.

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You can agree or disagree. Like we've had our buddy Bill Vander Hayden from Iron Will on and, and you know, he, he's an engineer like me, but maybe even takes it even more. So he always said, well, straightness is straightness. But once that arrow spins, it's,

the arrow doesn't know what's straight anymore. So as soon as it leaves the bow and gets stabilized, like this. Well, that's, that's, yeah, that's, I'm glad that he says that because that's the thing. When we put an arrow on a spinner, you're putting an object on an object. When an arrow is in the air, it is not touching anything. So when it's spinning, you're, it's not, it's not like it is when it's on a roller and you're watching movement. Yeah.

So the most important thing, if I had to pick anything on an arrow consistency or a factor, would be spine consistency. Yeah, because that's all going to be affected at the launch. Then I would probably go straightness, and then I would go grains consistency.

accuracy on grains. I mean, when we're talking, these guys talking, worrying about, you know, one or two grains and that's usually one or two grains of dust. It doesn't take much for a grain and you're sprinkling that over a 28 to a 30 inch piece of carbon.

And even if you put two or three grains in the nose of it, you're probably not even going to notice that. Yeah. That was, that was his point is like, yeah, the straightness, the spine consensus consistency. Some of that matters on, you know, takeoff. But once the arrow gets stabilized, you're, you know, at any given point in time, the unstraight or the crooked side, or, you know, is it a different point around the area? And it's, it's balanced. It's self balancing. It's, you know, it's like, even though it's not straight, it's,

So his point, and hopefully I'm not getting it wrong. Well, that's why the initial launch, and that's dictated off of the spine consistency, because that's going to determine how much or how little an arrow initially flexes when it launches from that bow. And so the more consistent that is, the more consistent the starting point, the more consistent the end result is.

Gotcha. Okay. So we touched on arrows. You know, we touched on, you know, third axis on your sites, maybe not necessary. You know, I don't need to be shooting from the top of my roof down to a target that's, you know, 20 yards out straight below me. Like some of that, you know, if you're in steep mountainous stuff would, you know, if you're in cliffy, you know, if we were back on my goat hunt, would you, would third axis matter there or not? Or are you still. I mean, if you're shooting a machined aluminum riser,

And a machined aluminum sight rod, it can't be that far off. And it's not going to move the impact of the arrow by inches. It's maybe an inch depending on the distance, but it's not huge. And even though you do have a bow that is perfectly third axis level, does not mean you shoot the bow level. Yep.

So a level is giving you a guidance, just like a pin is giving you something to point with. You're giving you something to somewhat get your bow level. And if you camp the bow, it will move the arrow impacting, you know, an inch or so. And so, but that's extreme amounts. So even having...

or extreme side hill, downhill stuff, you may have to over bubble into that thing because the arrow is going to go to that downhill side regardless. So,

So, so sometimes that level is just a gauge on, on where am I starting and how much am I going to push into that hill or push into the wind? Yep. Yep. And, you know, talking with you, you know, Matt Alwine, you know, Matt Schmitz, guys that I've shot at these hunting challenges with that are, you know, way above average shooters, you know, like you can set that on a jig, but like you have to shoot that in, like that's, it gets you close, but then you're going to have to shoot it in.

The only reason it became a big issue for me is because mine was messed with so much that it wasn't close to even being accurate. And then I was missing by seven or eight inches downhill, the opposite direction uphill on these steep, long distance shots. And then realized that somebody had messed with it and just got me way out of center. That's the thing with third axis means that you can adjust it. Which actually screwed me up versus if it didn't have the adjustability, I would have been right down the middle. If they would have just, if they just would have machined that thing,

90 degrees over it probably wasn't going to be a huge deal you know unless you've got such a torquey grip and a torquey bow at full draw that the bows you know really torqued and sideways in your hand is the third axis going to be off yep we won't talk about that with me

we got kind of like bear paws of hands let's get into accuracy and what's required we talked about this a little bit before we even fired the podcast up is that hunting versus target accuracy i think when we talk about accuracy it all ends up going back to what target archers would want right everybody wants to hit the center of the the circle or the blue face target or you know the the 10x and then

What is really required for hunting accuracy? And when you look at it through that lens, if you were to re-ask the question, like, can you spend money to really make it matter? Yes or no? Like, I'm just curious, like, where should a guy that's only a guy or gal only concerned with hunting, like,

How do they find the accuracy that's needed? Or I'm going to make the comment almost all modern equipment will get them there, and then you can either agree with or go your own direction on that answer. Yeah, I mean, the accuracy, I mean, it's a pretty big kill zone. Now, and there's, again, kind of a bad topic is shooting one in the guts.

it's still the kill zone. It's going to kill him. It's just not, it's not where we want to be because it doesn't gives us a better chance of finding the animal with blood trails and, and stuff like that. It's not as quick for the animal, which we're, no, no. But the problem is, is that it is death. It is, it is, you know, it is the kill zone. It is going to kill that animal. So, um, so realistically the kill zone is, is big. Um,

But yeah, it's not, it's not like target archery. I mean, especially when you look at Vegas and stuff like what Bodie Turner does. I mean, he's shooting half and a hit, you know, a dime every time, you know, and if he just barely, barely misses that dime, he can go home. Uh, there's so many good archers and, and the top, the competition is so tight, you know, where on an animal, it's, it's not that, it's not that tight. Um,

But we have other factors that come into play, too. I mean, our target moves. Our heart rate can change differently. Our physical can change. Whether or not we're exhausted mentally, tired from hiking up hills and not getting any sleep for four days in the wilderness, different things can come into play to whether or not we're extremely active. Yeah.

And that's where I've always, you know, maybe it's just easier to do it. But like, you know, it used to be a white paper plate, you know, the old school, they were maybe eight inches.

And, and I, I kind of, if you're in there, especially when I started to stretch out distances, like, all right, you know, 80, a hundred, you know, just, I would shoot those, not necessarily hunt those, but like, all right, we're, we're keeping good enough accuracy. You know, if we needed a follow-up shot, um, you know, there, but, and then I tightened it up to that six inch and it just, it's the hex on my target, but

I've always just been comfortable if I can hit that, like I'm doing well enough, like I could realistically take a shot from that distance. And it's just, one, it's helped me from staying away from target panic, being too competitive, like overthinking all of this. But in reality, something I would like to take, hunting accuracy, which are not directly related, but maybe more connected than we like to believe, and you mentioned this earlier, is my ability to like know...

where the new 10 X is on the animal based on the angle, the elevation difference, how I'm, what vitals I'm going to hit. If the arrow goes in there and comes out a different spot is even more important than maybe the accuracy at times. Like, I don't care if you can hit a one inch circle at 40 yards. If you don't know where to put the arrow at this angle, uh,

um i'll take my skill set over your archery skill set any day which like i say they're not directly related but accuracy you know what the bow versus like me almost not having to think about it at times where this angle or this arrow and the angle needs to go in is maybe more important for for a hunting uh you know archer yeah yeah no and i mean you're you're right i mean on

Shot placement and understanding the anatomy of the animal that you're shooting, you know, and all those different angles. And, you know, there again, there's so many factors that come in to play that, you know, and none of it is guaranteed. I mean, it's like arrows will take different directions. There are some things that can help minimize, you know, the exit angle.

side of an arrow i think is foc i think foc does help pull an arrow into a target instead of getting shoved into the target yeah and then so i think that exit side can get better with more foc um penetration's a whole nother thing i i that is one i guess going back into equipment that was one thing we didn't touch on

I wouldn't skimp on broadheads. And when I mean skimp on broadheads, it means buying something off of Amazon or – if you're paying $15, $19 or something for three or six broadheads –

Yeah. There's just, that's not, I mean, just knowing what we know, you know, for manufacturing, like there's no way those are heat treated, right? There's no way they were sharpened, right? Cause you just can't do it for that price. Weight consistency, straight consistency, blade consistency, all those different things that make every one of them, you know, good. So yeah. Not to, not to diverge, we're getting ready to close it up, but on the broadhead, uh,

like in your opinion you know whitetail hunting like is there and i'll answer this as well so you're i'm not putting you on an island like you get a lot of the the solid non-mechanicals versus mechanicals oh mechanical showing views on whitetail elk you should stay you know caught in contact is better for penetration or keeping the arrow on the angle it wants to go versus an expandable could deflect like

In your opinion, from what you've seen, you know, you've shot a lot of elk, shot a lot of deer. Is there any truth to any of that? Or is it, are you just of the nature, just shoot what you shoot best, like in a high quality? It's got to be accurate and it's got to be consistent. Number one thing, sharp. Then you kind of go into the failure rates, I guess, of things. But you also look at wound channels. So,

And you've killed enough animals too, and you've seen it. Sometimes they bleed, sometimes they don't. And it's not a broadhead issue. I don't believe it's a broadhead issue. When an animal doesn't bleed very good, I don't blame a broadhead. It's just, it is what it is. You shoot enough of them and you'll see. I've shot some really bad shots and it's just like blood's everywhere.

And I've shot them with the same type of broadhead in the better spot, and they didn't bleed very good. So I don't judge anything off that. And I like expandables, but I don't like expandables. So if I was shooting whitetails 100%, no matter what, I'd probably shoot expandable. It's the biggest wound channel...

And I think there was somebody that did a study that lost animals off of fixed heads versus expandables. And standard fixed heads lost more animals than expandables. So I think marginal shots can be improved with a bigger cut. Yeah, yeah. I would...

I've always thought that and overanalyze, like, you know, I'm shooting iron wheels, which has a, you know, a cut on contact main blade and then small bleeder blades. But like I overanalyze, like at times, just if that arrow at this certain instance was turned 90 degrees at that point versus that could be the difference on clipping a heart or missing. Or what I'm even more concerned about is on like a quartering animal. Well, I love caught on contact, but if my blade is perfectly aligned with like a rib bone, like

like big blades versus if it was turned 90 degrees and was going to like point through them and get, get, you know, get going. Like some of that's what concerns me. And I haven't had an issue yet, but the engineer in me is overanalyzing that stuff versus maybe like an old muzzy tip would already be going in a direction. The beautiful thing with a fixed head is if you don't go through the

you're still cutting, ripping, tearing, and causing trauma inside that animal. With 90% or maybe even more of expandable broadheads, when they stop moving forward, the blades close back up if they don't go all the way through. And now you're really not causing any more damage. You've cut what you cut. And you can say the same thing with shooting through an animal. You've cut what you cut.

So if that just did miss the artery, I mean, you've cut what you cut. So every one of them is different. I mean, there's not a perfect situation. But for me, if I'm shooting antelope, whitetails, mule deer, yeah, I'd shoot an expandable heartbeat. For me, because I'm like you, I call elk. A lot of my elk are coming toward me.

And so they're either a hard, hard at me or I'm shooting them right up through the front. But like I say, that's typically 10, 15, 20 yard shot type of thing. And I don't want a big cut trying to get through neck hide in here. I want to cut on contact head that penetrates. Yep. No, I'm, I'm in agreement on all of that. Well, give us a quick rundown. You know, I,

You came out before my whitetail hunt brought me that new Darton sequel 35 ST squared. Did I get that all right? Yep.

Which was, which was, um, which I like in, in the few features we've alluded to it a little bit. Like I I've tried to become a student of the game, but still don't wrench on my own bow. Um, there were some things that happened, you know, on this boat, Corey can speak to him better than me, but we have some tunable limb pockets. And, um, for timing, we had the ability to, to twist cables without going into the boat press, um, which, you know, we, we got everything set up with, with field points, um,

found out my broadhead if you remember was our my broadhead was hitting to the left correct uh yes i think yeah so we had broadheads were dialed or no field points were dialed broadheads were shooting two or three inches to the left after we got everything set up and rather than put it back in the press or make an adjust to the site or do anything else we were literally got an allen wrench out i think it was one twist on on

you know, the, the adjustable limb pocket. And we brought the arrows together and we're done, which for me, not having to run back to a bow shop or not have to like make little micro adjust to my rest and hope that I don't screw this up completely. Um, it was awesome getting ready for a hunt, um, you know, to, to be able to do that. And that was a problem I used to run, run into all the time before, you know, I'd run down Corey and set my bow up. And then like everybody is screw the broadheads on 10 days before season. You're like, Oh,

oh no, like, you have to redo all of this. And so I'll let Corey speak to some of this technology and, and, uh, you know, some of the things that Darton are doing and then kind of, you know, some of these advanced advancements that maybe aren't all going into efficiency, but, you know, the efficiency of the bow, but, and the fuel of the bow, but really going into the tunability of the bow seems to be the biggest advancements, you know, coming out. Yeah. So the tunability on the new bow and stuff, um,

You know, when we tune a bow or you tune a bow at the shop, definitely shooting through paper is a snapshot of it, but it's not the telltale sign, especially when we start putting veins in the front with a broadhead. So things can show up a little bit more with that. And so having the ability to tweak some stuff at the range instead of having to drive back to a shop and put a bow in a press or move in the rest, like you say,

It's a nice feature. So we came out with a new timing system that is in our yokes and it's a turnbuckle. So it just turns. It just puts or takes out twists of the cable. So it doesn't get any longer or shorter. So it's not on a thread system anymore.

So we're not pulling something different. We're actually just putting the twist and we can micro do that on the timing. So that's really cool. And so then when we go into the what everybody's calling the limb pocket, it's not necessarily like tuning the limb pocket on what we're doing. Other companies will actually move a pocket around.

What we're doing is keeping the pocket square and in its position, but we're actually changing deflection numbers of a limb. So we've got a little plug that we can put in the left or the right limb and basically add right around anywhere from, you know, a half a pound to two and a half pounds to that limb, which makes that limb stronger, the other limb slightly weaker. Yeah.

And we can flip-flop that. So the cool thing on that is that it keeps the limb pocket square. And then on the cam side of it, we're actually not moving the cam left and right. Because if you move the cam left and right, then you're technically not shoving the back of the arrow forward.

from the back of the arrow again. So we keep everything square into the bow and just do it off of limb deflections. It's just pretty, pretty slick. Yeah. Yeah. It was, it was slick. And then, um, I don't know, I was shooting here and showed up in Kansas. So I give Corey a quick call. And once again, over the phone, you know, just making sure I was going the right direction. I could have just,

twisted and checked but you know i was able to make another adjustment while we were in kansas and kind of you know quote unquote retune the bow versus if i couldn't have you know had the tools or the ability to fix some of this stuff on the fly i wouldn't have been very confident as i was sitting in a tree but you know made a few adjustments shot back out to 40 yards and everything was flying perfect so um you know once again just a testament to to making stuff easy for a dummy like me that wouldn't have been able to fix that on my own so how big a deer did you shoot

I haven't scored it yet. When I'm in Kansas, we call them 10-pointers. Around here, I think they'd be called a 5x5 or a 4-point with eye guards. So I killed a good 10-pointer probably that mid-50s, 155-ish. Nice. Yeah, we're spoiled back there. But killed him on the very first sit, then an hour into it, and then went on doe patrol after that, and then decided I was...

tired of cutting up those so then don't if randy listens he's gonna be mad but i was like trying to shoo him away later on in the week like just no not really um you know there's lots of chores to do on a big farm like that so we tried to help well here in montana we also have hunter hunters for the hungry so yeah um but yeah i shot four does and like you say it's a lot of work here after it's fun and all of a sudden you're like oh man i got a lot of

a lot of work ahead of me. Yeah. So, yeah, no, it was, it was good. Um, any other thing, anything else in new from black you, anything else you want to talk about or, yeah, so we, we, uh, should be, I don't know when this is going to launch, but I think right around, uh, December 10th, actually probably tomorrow, we should be getting in all our, uh,

All our new graphics, we've got new veins that we're putting on the arrows for factory flesh that will be a 2.5 Fusion X vein instead of a two-inch vein. And we're spine indexing all the arrows, the shafts. We'll have a laser index for the stiff side of the arrow. New graphics. And then just the course, you know, the one thing that Black Eagle is known for is the super sorted where our spine consistency is so good.

consistent across the board on the arrows. So, so yeah. Um, other than that, it's pretty much the same, same good stuff and it's going to be a good year.

No, I really appreciate, you know, it's always good to catch up, even though now I get to see it for half a day while we're rushing to set a bow up, but always good to catch up with you. And I just always liked your perspective on, you know, on, on shooting and becoming better and maybe, you know, what the internet tells us we should be doing versus what the reality, you know, we should just be practicing more or working on certain things and not just buying the newest and latest and greatest. And it's not going to make you become a better shooter. Yeah. Practice with a purpose. Yeah.

Figure out what you're going to practice today, whether or not it's your grip angle, your anchor point. Is it my aiming? Do practice aiming drills. The biggest key, I think, the other thing that I get frustrated with is watching people who are struggling with target panic.

And everybody tells him to buy a back tension release. Back tension is a form of a shot. It doesn't matter if you do it with your booger finger or you turn your hand upside down, but you're still using your back to keep strong into the shot and activate the trigger, whether or not it be an index trigger, like I say, or a button. But these guys will go out and buy an expensive button and then not learn how to properly shoot it. And their, their problems of punching the trigger and,

is still there. They just turned their hand upside down and they're $300 more in debt. So if you're going to buy a good release, find somebody to help you learn how to shoot that release properly.

I like it. I like it. We'll, we'll end on that. Thanks for coming on, Corey. Enjoy your, your snowy winter in Montana and all enjoy our wet winter here in Washington. Hey, I did. You saw that big buck that walked by my, I did. That's not, that's not a bad site. I've got a couple. Hey, I got a couple of those in my yard eating under the apple trees. So it's almost the same. Yeah. Almost. All right. Take care, buddy. We'll see you. Thank you.

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