Ep. 91: Building the Perfect Elk Arrow
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Welcome back to another episode of Cutting the Distance Podcast. I'm Dirk Durham, and I have a guest here today. It's Corey Miller. We're in beautiful Big Sky, Montana at Total Archery Challenge. Corey's here with Darton Archery and Black Eagle Arrows. They have a booth set up, and Corey's a longtime friend, someone I've known for a long time.

I appreciate his insight on archery and elk hunting. He's an accomplished elk hunter. Welcome, Corey. Hey, thanks. Thanks, Dirk. How you doing? Really good. Really good. What's your job title at, Dirk? So I'm the regional sales manager out west. So basically I cover Oregon, Washington, Idaho, Montana, and Wyoming. So travel around all the beautiful states.

I was born and raised in Oregon, had a shop in Oregon, lived a majority of my life, I guess, in Washington right on the border. And then... What was the name of your shop? Triple X Archery. I bet a lot of our listeners would probably recognize your shop, probably recognize you. You've been around the business for a while. I'm old. That was a nice way of saying you're old. Yeah. And then so we moved to... Sold the business and moved to Montana. Yeah.

Couldn't be happier on that. Just blessed to live in a great state and a lot better elk environment, people environment, everything, beauty, weather. I just love it out here. Yeah, I love Montana. How many years have you been elk cutting? 30, I think, close to 30. Yeah? Yeah, kind of forgotten. You've probably seen a lot of different...

and different things and gadgets and gizmos and bows and arrows and stuff come along in the last 30 years. Yeah. Definitely. Yeah, it's changed and changed a lot. There's been some new stuff, which is still old stuff that we did back then, but now we just do it better. So, you know, between fletchings, broadheads, arrow components to...

You know, the carbon makeup of an arrow and overall weight of an arrow, all those things have changed drastically, you know, in the last... To me, in the last really probably 10 years, it's really starting to change and change a lot. Yeah. I remember when I was a kid, I didn't even have a compound bow at the time. I was still shooting like a crappy little recurve. And one of my neighbor kids, his dad was big into archery, and they had some kind of...

Were they graphite arrows?

Yeah. Or were they more fiberglass? They were fiberglass. They were weird looking. Yeah. And I was like, Whoa, those are, wow. Those are cool. You know, I had my old XX 75s, you know, or game, probably a game getter at that point, you know, my one arrow. Yeah. I remember when like carbon first came out and everybody's like, Oh, they're dangerous. You know, if you shoot an animal, you're going to want to cut like eight inches around the meat because there's going to be carbon splinters exploded all through the meat. And, uh,

So, yeah, nobody even thinks about it anymore now. And arrow breaks, if it does break inside of an animal, it's not a big deal. But, you know, it's usually so bloodshot. Nobody's eating that hamburger anyway. Right, right, right. Yeah, you just cut that out anyway. With the devastation that the broadheads are doing to them, it's pretty well a big hole already. Yeah. Yeah.

So what's your favorite mode of operation when you go elk hunting? Are you a day tripper? Are you a backpack hunter, like back hunter? Are you like both? What do you do? Yeah, so I mean, like when I first started hunting, it was, you know, pull a camper and had elk camp. You know, I didn't know anything other than like hunting camps where everybody, you know, sat around and it was more of a camping trip slash hunting experience.

I didn't know anything about calling. I remember I sounded good calling and stuff, but I didn't know, like,

why am I doing what I'm doing and when should I do it? And so then I instantly thought I sucked. And so then I kind of quit calling cause I'd be out in the middle of the open. I'd be looking at elk and I'd scream at him and they all turn around and run away. And I'm like, God, I suck at this. And so it took me quite a few years and going to a lot of seminars and listening to other people's tactics and, and getting confidence enough to try it again and understand it. Um, and then I got reunited back to, uh,

a childhood friend that I'll be my hunting partner that we went to kindergarten together. We went to school all our lives together, um, and got reintroduced with him. And he was really big into back country and I'd always, he wanted to, but I had no idea how to do it. And he kind of basically took me under his wing and, and we started back country hunting. And, and I think, you know, you've, you've hunted with enough people, different folks that I think finding a hunting partner is definitely harder than, uh,

finding elk. Oh yeah, definitely. You know, and to be with somebody that you can be along with for 12, 13 days and get along with them. And, and, you know, we, we just, we just gel really good. We understand exactly what our wants and needs are out of each other and out of a hunt. And, and we hunt primarily back country stuff. So, but it's not, you know, there's a lot of different versions of it. So our, our typicals, you know, two to three days into areas and, and,

And I feel like two to three days we should kill something or we need to move.

And if it's good and we still haven't connected, then we're usually making that two day or a trip out and grabbing enough more gear of food for two to three more days. - Right. - You know, I don't want to be anchored down. I've never wanted to put up a wall tent. I want to be as much mobile as possible. So that's kind of our version of a back country hunts. You know, it's, you know, anywhere from two miles in to eight miles in. We're pretty realistic. We're getting old. We're both 55 years old.

The hills are getting steeper every year, so it's tough to hunt that way, but I enjoy it. What do you do in the off-season to keep in shape? You like to do a lot of trail running, right? I do a lot of trail running, and that helps too because I'm on the road a lot during the winters, eating bad food and sleeping bad, sleeping in hotels, never really getting a lot of sleep, and so trying to keep active,

And what's cool about trail running is there's good apps. I do all trails, and so I can just type in, say I'm in Boise area, and my trail's near me, and there's all kinds of trails. Mountain biking trails and hiking trails. And so I'll just go out and do a trail.

two to five mile mountain trail run. And so that's kind of fun. While you're on the road. Yeah. Yeah, that'd be probably really helpful. That way you're just not getting stowa. It's kind of cool. Like I got Strava so you can track what you're doing and your friends can see it. And they're like, man, this guy's running in Bend, Oregon. And then he's over in Boise, Idaho running. And he's down in Wyoming running. What's this guy do for work? He's always on vacation or something. Living the dream. So it's kind of neat to...

to do that and it's fun. So yeah, I do a little bit of trail running. I don't, there was a time there I kind of got into the gym thing and going to the gym and yeah,

I like cardio. Yeah. So... Yeah. What do you do? Usually, I don't start until right now. Here we are at the beginning of June. So I start in June. I start hiking the hills around the Boise area. I live in the Boise area. There's a bunch of great trails in the Boise foothills. I mean, you want to hike, you want to bike, you want to run, whatever. There's no running for me. I have some lower back issues where...

Running just kills me from my previous career back in the old days, back when I was a tire guy. But that was part of your job was running. That was my job was to run every day on concrete for 12 hours a day. It was brilliant. You know, I was in pretty good shape back then. Yeah, I was in pretty good shape back then except for all my aches and pains and I felt like a truck ran over me every day. And then on the weekends and my time off, it was tough. I think I feel better now than I did in my 30s.

As far as aches and pains go. But I'm a little heavier, too. I'm a little bit fatter. How old are you then? I'm 50. I just turned 50. So I'm 55, and I don't know what 55 is supposed to feel like, but it hurts. Yeah. And so I've been really lax. I run. I feel like I stay in shape enough. But for some reason, it's just I hit a—it's changed. And so now I'm having to be more diet differently than—

what it was before. Yeah. Yeah. Well, yeah. Inflammation comes from your diet big time. Yeah. And they say you can't outwork a bad diet, which is in your 20s and 30s, I'd argue that. I'd argue with it. I'd argue with it. Because I ate really bad when I was really, really into the hardcore running and doing lots and lots of miles. Ate everything, drank everything, and it was good. Yeah, you just burn it up. But man, now it's...

It catches up. Yeah. It catches up. Yeah, same thing. I eat like an a-hole a lot of the year, and then right now I'm on the carnivore diet. You know, I got to drop some pounds before September. And, you know, back to the, you know, hiking those hills. I will go to the gym, lift some weights. I like to do a dumbbell workout to get my shoulders strong, you know, just build strength. That way you can grab those quarters, pick them up, lug them around, you know. I've always been pretty strong anyway, but it's good, like, as I age –

I don't have that superhuman strength I had when I was younger, you know, when I was in my 30s. Now, I don't have a physical job, so I'm not as strong. So I got to keep some strength training in there to be able to lug those quarters around. And also, even just walking around with your day pack, you know, a day pack can be anywhere from 10 to 25 pounds, depending on where you're at and what you're doing.

And my shoulders will get really sore if I haven't done any kind of, they'll get fatigued if I haven't done any shoulder workouts. Yeah, the shoulders burn just having a pack on. The other thing that I've noticed, like running, my cardio is really good, but still like we went shed hunting and we did some bear hunts and like say only 20, 25 pound pack on, nothing big, but...

Putting boots on and actually hiking hills instead of running hills. I was sore like big time my shins hurt Back hurts and so I've got it about now is probably where I need to start introducing a little bit more hikes Into my my workout system instead of just runs right because it definitely takes different ligaments muscles then

keeping that momentum of a run. So you're doing things a lot slower. A lot more stabilization muscles are used on those hikes. Yeah, and that's the good thing with trail running. Like my ankles, those, they feel really super strong from trail runs. So I don't roll ankles very often. Never, really. I should do some light running just to kind of help my ankles because my ankles are... I got a bad ankle. I had surgery on in December of 22. But...

I need to... It's feeling really good now, but it never can hurt to have stronger ankles. Yeah. But yeah...

I probably should work on my fitness and my diet year-round, you know, especially now that I'm older. I could get away with that when I was younger, but nowadays I just can't do it. It catches up to you. Everything, like, your metabolism slows down, you know, it's harder to get off the couch. Yeah, I need to, now that I'm in my 50s, now that I'm 50, I need to, like, re-evaluate and stuff.

start doing things different. Yeah. What's that? Your next, that song, my next 30 years, you know, I'm going to start doing some things a little differently. So, um, that way I can have some hunting in my, in my sixties and seventies and enjoy them. Yeah. Yep. So that's, yeah, that's kind of my elk hunting. Um, you know, are you spotting stock or you call heavy? I'm a call heavy. I've killed one, one elk,

And it was the hardest thing I could do not to rip out a bugle. Because the bull's just screaming and I can't see him. He's just over the edge. And I'm just like, I know if I call, he'll come over here. And it was just like pulling teeth not to call. But it worked out. Because I had a cow out in front of me. And I had another bull come up to that cow. And all I could see was his tines. And then as soon as...

He just busted out of there, and I thought, well, two things. Either that bull's coming or they winded me. So I went to full draw, took two steps up the hill, and all I hear is glunks, clunk, clunk, clunk. Here he comes, walked right up to that cow at 20 yards and smoked him. He had no idea it was there. And that's the problem with calling is it's like they know you're there. You're giving it up. But I just love calling. Yes. And...

but it's a it's a poker game chess match whatever you you can't show your cards you can't move your your your pieces until at the right moment and sometimes like you said that the right moment never came for you to call yeah you know and that's the thing i kept going i think i could and then you know and then you do and then it doesn't work out and then you're like so i've had a lot of times where it's like there's probably times i should have just shut up yeah and i and i didn't um which is fine you know i mean i don't know we hunt

We hunt hard and long and we have access to time to hunt, which is good. So I'm willing to booger some stuff up. I'm not worried that that was my one opportunity. I feel like I can get a few more opportunities because of the way we hunt. And calling, I think, offers more, you know, I think that the thing that sucks is when the elk don't talk back. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. That's the hard part.

Because I get used to nothing but answers. And so, you know, you'll be, you know, working down into some areas and you're doing some calls and nothing answers. And then you walk 50 yards and blow elk out. And you're like, why? Why didn't he just...

say something. And sometimes in prime time, you know, that third week of September, it's like, there's got to be bold. I mean, they're hearing me. They're just tight lip. He's like, oh, I'm just going to stand here and wait until you come down here. Yeah.

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Yeah, such is the life of elk calling. It can be really awesome or really terrible. I guess that's where you have to be able to pivot. Like if you're in a country where you can spot them and then like go get on them, that's good. Yeah, so this year is going to be that because the tag I drew is definitely in country that I'm not used to hunting. So it's going to be glassing, spotting, stalking, and...

I'm kind of nervous on that because I'm not a real stealthy, patient kind of hunter. I'm not either. I'm not either. I stumble on a blade of grass, so I'm sure I'm going to roll rocks and be loud. And so stalking in is going to be tough. But we'll see. It'll be fun. Yeah. Get it done. Yeah. It's a new way to do it. Yeah. I know in times where I've stalked in on bugles, my anticipation is through the roof. I'm like...

I almost psyched myself out with like excitement. I mean, it is an exciting way to do it. Just like anticipating the opportunity. Um, but also I, I, I,

I love the interaction with elk when you call them. And it's funner yet. So I can see both. If deer would bugle, I'd hunt deer more. Yeah, yeah, definitely, definitely. They are the lesser species. Yeah. I mean, some people like Ryan Lampers might argue with you and laugh in your face if you said that. But it's okay. I mean, he's entitled to that opinion. But he's not a good elk caller. But he's not a good elk caller. Yeah.

But he's a great elk killer. Yes. He can call good enough to get it done. But the big reason I want to talk to you today is because, man, it seems like...

If you get on Facebook, you get on Instagram, you get on social media or forums, no matter where you're at, there's a lot of people reaching out, asking questions to other people about, hey, I'm trying to dial in the perfect elk arrow. They're saying their setups and my draw length and my bow, my draw weight and la, la, la, and I really want to do this. This is the arrow I have. Is this good enough? Man, there's so much...

information out there on both sides. One camp says you have to shoot an 800 grain arrow. One camp says you have to shoot a 400 grain arrow. There's all these differences of opinion on what the perfect elk hunting arrow is. A perfect amount of FOC

Front of center. Front of center. Weight, if you didn't know what that is. So I get the calls too because I do a lot of customer service calls too. So everybody across the country who calls Black Eagle, a good chance I'm going to be answering the phone. And so a lot of guys will call. Can I just call in and like mess with you? Yeah, absolutely.

Hello, Mr. Corey. I have a problem. I have a transfer button, so I usually transfer those. Somebody with a weird voice. Somebody with some more experience than me or patience. But, yeah, so I think I personally feel, you know, shooting enough elk...

seeing some differences. I went down that road. I went to the real heavy and I tell people I've killed them with 370 grains. I've killed them with 570 and everything in between and not one elk died any deader than the other. But I know I'll never shoot that heavy again. And the main reason on that

Yeah. So let's back, let's, before we go further...

Why is that 280 to 290 speeds important? The big thing on that is if you were to measure or look at a sight tape, measure your gap from 20 to 60. If you were to shoot a speed of 260 versus 280 and you look at the gap difference from that 20 to 60, that pin gap shrinks a lot. When you go from 280 to 300,

that 20 to 60 gap barely changes. So at some point there's not much more return in my gapping of my pins of getting any tighter. And then most of us, especially still out west, are shooting a fixed head. And so once you start getting into that 300 feet per second, the bow can become finicky when we start putting steering devices on the front of it. So

it still stays in a very tunable state, very shootable state in that 280, 290 mark. It's very forgiving still. And I'm not going to gain anything more in my pin gap of shrinking down. So that's kind of where everybody just settles in to that magic area. So...

If I'm shooting a bow that's going to be 63 pounds, I look at my IBO rating of that bow. I'll probably go ahead and shoot a random arrow through the graph and see where I'm at. And I know that every 30 grains is 10 feet. So if I shoot a 450 grain arrow through the graph at 270, I know I need to...

I need to gain 10 feet, so I need to shove or take 30 grains off of that arrow. So I want to try and build an arrow around 420 to get to me 280. Do you mess with your poundage or your bow at all? A little bit because that's, you know, I want to be comfortable. I want to aim good at that. I'll make everything else work. And this is the beautiful thing from back in the day where we didn't have arrow choices. And so poundage was the only way we could gain speed.

were the only way we could shorten an arrow up to make it lighter. So we've seen a lot of 90-pound bows back in the day, and they didn't have any let off. 25-inch arrows. And we didn't have the tunability of a bow now. But now, I mean, there's so many arrows that we can pick an arrow to come into the weight that we want to shoot from.

the speeds that we need to shoot. So, and that's kind of how I'll base everything as far as FOC goes. If I say I, say the arrow build for this year is going to be, you know, 420 to 430, then I'll start looking through our catalog of arrows and, and I'll,

It gets a little bit tricky because of FOC does change the spine. It weakens up a spine. So depending on how much tip weight you're going to run to make sure you're going to stay in a spine. So if I know that the arrows that I'm looking at, I can still keep into, say, a 350, right?

I'll look at the arrows, the two arrows that I might come down to. If they're both going to come in at 420, 425, but one arrow has 160 grains in the nose and the other one has 120 in the nose, I'm going to take the 120. Okay.

or the 160 grains. I'm going to take that more FOC on that arrow that's going to weigh the same as the other one. So I'll always take FOC if I can get it, but I don't base everything off of that. I'm still basing everything on my overall weight of an arrow. So, so let's say a, a Spartan arrow versus a Rampage. A Rampage is going to have 56 grain half out and a Spartan has a 26 grain insert. So,

right there, there's 30 grains difference. And if that arrow, because of the build on those overall weight is within 5-10 grains of each other, I'm going to take the one with the more FOC. Yeah. And I think another thing about

People think coming out west and shooting elk or shooting moose, you know, they need a bigger, heavier system. And I think the opposite on it because I look at it as a target and it's a stationary target. You take a lighter target, a light hoofed animal or a bag target that's hanging, it absorbs all the energy. And so your penetration goes down. You take a cedar bale or, you know, put a bag target against the wall and

the arrow keeps driving through that. And so you take an elk or a moose, they kind of stand there. Whoa, here comes some wind again. That target stands there, and so that penetration gets better as the bigger the animal, in my opinion. - That makes sense, yeah. It's a more stationary, solid target you're shooting into. It doesn't give. - Yep. - Yeah. - And it's not absorbing the, and that's why a lot of whitetails, especially the ones that look up the tree,

Usually that arrow doesn't get through that animal. But when that animal is relaxed and has no idea about the reaction time of that shot happening, you can usually blow through a whitetail at 50 pounds, no problem. I've shot through a lot of the whitetails here at 52 pounds. Right. But when they're looking at you, you're probably going to lose a little bit of energy there because they're pretty fast. Yeah. Yeah.

It's funny, I kind of stumbled onto that same idea on my own through trials and tribulations over the years, mostly regarding pin gap, right? I don't want these great big pin gaps. Reason being, if you misjudge your yardage by three to five yards when you have a huge pin gap, you're going to miss or hit somewhere you don't want to hit. And that's what happened when I shot that big heavy arrow. And I, you know...

I don't know when the last I've shot over 40 yards. So I'm not a distant shooter. And that's where it really opened my eyes because I'm like, okay, here's the bull. He's stepping out. It's 40. Put 40 on him. Let it go. And I hit at 40. It was 42 yards. I shot him for 40. And I was five, six inches below where my pin was. And I was actually praying that I was going to miss him because it was going so low.

Ended up leaving the bowl overnight, you know, came back and found him, you know, he was dead. But it was like, man, I can't, I can't be worrying about two to three yards at 40 and under. Yes. And the other thing, talking about a pin gap, for me, I shoot a two pin that I can move my two pins gap-wise. It's not a stationary. This is what it is. And I set it for 20 to 40. And on an elk's cavity at 50 yards...

is back to belly. So if I'm at full draw, elk comes in, boogers up, runs out there, stops, looks back at me. If my pins are still inside of his chest cavity, he's under 50 yards. And I know what my hold is. If my pins are above and below him, he's over 50. I'm going to let down. So it kind of gives me a quick, instant...

good range finding ability keeps my sight picture clean. Um, and like I say, I just, I, I don't feel the need to have to shoot and push the envelope on some farther shots. Yeah. So it sounds like you like to keep your, your shots 40 and in 40 and under. Yeah. So, you know, with all the, of all the hype these days, guys, you know, practice and long distances and wanting to shoot an elk at 70 yards. And, uh, what's your opinion on that? Yeah. I,

I don't try to have an opinion on it because it's a moral issue that you battle with your own self. Right. And I always tell people, if you question yourself and you lose that animal, I hope you beat yourself up. Because you're going to still, the possibilities of losing an animal at a 20-yard shot is still going to be there. So I have a hard time saying it's because of that distance. Right. But when I take a 20-yard shot, there's never a doubt. Right.

And if there's a doubt in my mind, that's the thing that you got to listen to the little voice in your head. I do think that some people can get some false hope because shooting some targets, the target's not moving. You're not under stress.

I've seen that a lot of these elk training camps I've gone to, you know, in the questionnaire when you sign up, what's your maximum distance? Yeah, I was with Dan and watch him do that, get a heart rate improved and watch people watch you put a little bit of pressure on you. And these guys have a hard time hitting that dot. Yeah, you got 30 people looking at you and you said 50 yards? Yeah.

It's damn tough for them to even hit the target, let alone hit it good. It's the same thing as a steel target. You put the steel target out there, all of a sudden the stress level changes because I got to, you know. So, I mean, that's hunting. I mean, so I try not to, like I say, it's a moral thing that you've got to battle with yourself. I just feel like where I am in my life, like I don't need to push the envelope. I feel confident that I'm going to get opportunities. And it's not the end of the world, right?

If I don't kill an elk, honestly, I love being in the woods. I love sunsets. I love the sunrises. I love the thunderstorms. I love everything about September that I get enough enjoyment out of that, that the taking of the animals, the bonus, but it's not for me, unfortunately, I guess, I guess it's unfortunate. Maybe it's fortunate. I don't know, but it's not like the determining factor of whether or not

That you had fun. Yeah. Yeah. So... No, I get that. I love that. Yeah, it is a morality thing, and you're not here to be the morality police. No. I'm not either. No. But I'd like to talk about it to, like, you know, I think more informed people, you know, can start... I feel like it's very important to question yourself. I know I'm my own worst critic, and I love that how you said if you doubted the shot and then you make a bad shot...

you better beat yourself up, right? Don't normalize it. That's the big thing. And, you know, we start to see more of this stuff being filmed or talked about, you know, and run in an archery shop for years. My struggle with it is I feel like people are being more okay with losing animals. And I think that's terrible. I think that's wrong.

Yeah, I agree with that. I'm not okay with it. That's why I try to keep my shots very realistic. And I know people, and I did it. I've lost animals, and I look at it and I say, you know, it was a fatal hit. I'm punching my tag. Yes. And I don't judge people for not doing it. Like I said, these are all things that you have to deal with yourself, but

Looking at it as a whole of us as hunters, I don't think we should ever normalize it. Yeah, I agree 100%. What's your take on, this is kind of off the topic of arrows, but people normalize and stuff. What's your take on people just being crappy to each other on social and all these little tiffs and people getting these arguments on social media and they're just like arguments. Absolutely horrible. Yeah.

You know, I'm not a crossbow guy. And you see a lot of it on crossbow stuff. I've seen one particular person say something about, I don't even know if I even want to say it. It was so bad, you know, and it was a pretty prominent person. And I'm thinking that's just horrible because you don't know the limitations of anybody else. And it's the same thing. We go back into the moral thing. You know, why am I going to determine whether or not you want to shoot 60 yards or not?

Why are you determining whether or not I should shoot an expandable? You know, that's just, you know, there's all these things and we've got enough people. And coming, the big thing for me is coming from a state such as Oregon and Washington where we watched hunters fight against hunters and we lost bear and cougar hunting.

We lost running hounds. We lost baiting because the hunters couldn't unite to each other. And so when things went to a vote because you're doing something that I didn't approve on, so I'm going to tell you no. And I look at that and I'm like, this is the most ridiculous thing I've ever seen. Absolutely. If you don't want to hunt with a crossbow, don't do it. I've never seen anybody else's equipment ever screw up any of my hunts.

I was like, man, I would have killed an elk, but there was a guy out there hunting with a crossbow for crying out loud. You know, it just, it makes no sense to me. It makes no sense. So, yeah. So I'm watching hunters fight against hunters and watching us lose our rights to hunt. That's why the biggest reason why I am so against people treating other hunters that way. It's pretty simple. Turn the channel.

You know, if you don't watch the program that's on TV, turn the channel. If you don't want to hunt the way that the person is hunting, it's fine. Yeah, you don't have to. Nobody's saying you had to. No. If it's legal, that's the thing. If it's legal. The state's determined it's legal. Yeah. Then let them do it. If someone wants to do it, let's go right ahead. And there's a lot of things, you know, we're older too. And, you know, back in the day, what I thought was,

was dumb and now I've done, I'm like, it's actually kind of fun. You know, for me, hunting out of a tree, I thought, God, I could never do it. And I look forward to hunting whitetail does in, you know, in October, November, whatever time that, you know, that late season. I enjoy it. It's kind of fun. It's a different hunt. It's relaxing. It's fun to watch animal behavior. I love watching deer. But back in my earlier days, I, man, I couldn't do it. Yeah, that's stupid.

They should outlaw that. Yeah. My good friend Bradley, you know, he runs hound dogs. Yeah. And he doesn't run baits. He has, but he doesn't run baits anymore. But...

He's not against them. And by all means, if other people want to bait, he supports it. He's like, I'll stand there right with them and I will fight for them to have baits. Yeah. But I hope they fight for me to have dogs. Dogs. You know. Well, that's the thing too with like even, you know, like going back to dogs, like, you know, looking back and saying, I don't understand it because I don't do it or whatever. Yeah.

But when you really get to know some of those guys, it's just the same thing for me. Like I said, I love the thunderstorms. I love the sunsets. I love the smoke in the air of what colors it will turn in September. And a houndsman loves watching his dogs work. Yeah. And same thing with a duck hunter. They love the animal side of the dogs working and the calling of the duck. It's not...

So there's other reasons why people hunt. Yeah. Do I want to get up at 3 a.m. and go set up decoys? It's not really for me. I did it for a while, and it was like, this sucks. I can't even unbutton my pants to go to the bathroom. Too cold. My hands are so numb. It was like all to shoot a duck that I didn't really enjoy eating. But I had a dog back then, and so I did like watching my dog work. Yeah.

The dog loved it. Yeah, my bulldog doesn't. He's not a duck retriever. No, no. He probably don't swim a lot. No, she sinks. She's a boulder. O'Reilly Auto Parts are in the business of keeping your car on the road. I love O'Reilly. In fact, the other day, I'm not kidding you, the other day, I went into an O'Reilly Auto Parts looking for a part. I needed a different thing that wasn't really in there, you know, only like tangentially related to what they carry.

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This is Brent Reeves from This Country Life. What makes South Dakota the greatest for pheasant hunting? With over 1.2 million pheasants harvested last year, South Dakota boasts the highest population of pheasants in the nation. In fact, you'd have to add up the total harvest from neighboring states just to get that many birds.

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And we're prioritizing that over arrow weight. Well, no, arrow weight, yeah, I mean, as far as going over the board. Yeah, like saying, oh, I need X amount of... I need another 100-grain arrow. No, if my 500-grain arrow shoots 280, then that's what I'm going to shoot. But if my 420-grain arrow shoots 280, that's what I'm building. I'm not going to build for the momentum thing. My feelings on the momentum thing is...

momentum really doesn't start to take a place until a distance. And I don't know really what that distance is, but I don't believe it's at 40 yards and under. Right, right. And I think you can see that, especially in ballistics of a gun, you know, and yes, it makes a difference. And you're shooting, you know, 500 yards and you're seeing a light bullet die off versus a heavy bullet.

holding some more energy at 500 yards type of thing. We're talking realistically 40 yards and under as an average shot. So I don't think momentum has come into play. And when you look at the calculations like on an app, like I was just showing a guy here and changing the arrow weight and the speeds, and the momentum went .53 to .58. Yeah.

When there's a decimal point in front of the number, it's not a very big number. Right. So versus watching kinetic energy change by, you know, three to five foot pounds of kinetic energy. I just feel like foot pounds of kinetic energy is better than that decimal point moving. Right. Right. So...

I know, man, it can make people crazy. Like, they're just, like, frustrated and just like, man, I really got to dial this in. And it can be real confusing. So I'm really glad you kind of cleared that up. I know. And the good thing is, is if you get something that's pretty close and you're like, I think this is the right weight area. And my bow's shooting the right pin gap and the right feet per second. I think this will work. And, like, be confident in the setup. Yeah.

We've been around for a long time, 30 plus years bow hunting.

Back when we didn't weigh arrows, we didn't even know what FOC was. I shot – I used to shoot 26-inch arrows with an overdraw with an 80-pound bow back in the 80s, right? And I didn't know how fast it went. But it went pretty fast, it seemed like. And it sounded like a 30-30 going off when you shoot. It was pretty loud. But, you know, those arrows penetrated good. I had some pass-throughs. And that being said, too, a lot of what we're talking about is –

what I consider being on the ground. Because speed doesn't really, when you go into a tree, it changes. Your distances are fixed. You can usually put flags out there or know you've already ranged the trail. Or ground blinds. Yeah. And so you're like, okay, there's a fixed distance. It's going to be 25 yards and under.

Heavy arrow, shoot it. I don't care. Not a big deal. But for what we do when elk or deer are coming in and going, they can change that distance by two yards, three yards very quickly and not even notice it. And so that pin gap is more important than, you know. If I was shooting hogs over bait...

I'd probably shoot a heavy arrow cut on contact. You got to shoot down into the target. So you need some, make sure you're getting a little bit more penetration. You know, that it's all good. But for really what we're talking about elk hunting and mule deer hunting. Yeah. The Western hunting. It's not the same game. No. So that's kind of how I build mine. Yeah. Yeah. That's good. Yeah. And some of the arrows I shot in the past, uh,

I'd never even weighed them before. And then I started doing the math, you know, adding things up and before I had an arrow scale and I'm like, I was, I'm almost embarrassed to say, you know, I was shooting like a 400 grain arrow because I was embarrassed to say, you know, they killed elk. Well, people have shamed you to think that you're unethical to shoot such a light arrow. Right, right. So, you know, honestly, um, you can kill elk with a lot of, a lot of good arrow setups, you know, whether you're a little heavier, a little lighter, um,

In the end, it's all about shot placement. You have to hit them good, don't matter how heavy your arrow is. If you hit them in a bad spot, you're not going to kill them. And there again, going, you've killed enough animals too, and your penetration changes. And this is where I don't think that the information that we have really is still skewed. Because going back to a light animal versus a heavy animal, an alert animal versus a non-alert animal, penetration depths all change.

It's all anecdotal information. And same thing with blood trails. Yeah. You know, you can hit one artery and blood's squirting everywhere, and you could just miss that artery. And that arrow hole is a half an inch difference from another arrow hole. Blood trails are going to be totally different. Yeah. And everybody's like, oh, I'll never use that broadhead again. It didn't bleed. It's like... You have to be smart. Do a little scientific stuff. Everyone's going to be new. Yeah. But what I do know...

It's usually pretty quick and so for me if I don't watch an elk fall or hear an elk fall I'm nervous and I'm gonna take my time. Yeah, I've learned that it's when it's right. It's right and it's fast So if if I don't hear it or see it I'm gonna really really slow down because there's no no reason to ever be in a hurry. Yeah No, I agree and we're tracking blood and

Don't get ahead of the evidence, right? That's like a quote from old CSI, you know, Hal Grissom. Like, all right, people start making assumptions. Oh, maybe this way, maybe it went that way. Hey, don't get ahead of the evidence. Let's stay on the blood. And one person can, like, kind of look ahead and stuff. But if you get people walking ahead and moving around, in person, you can mess up the blood trail. Yep. If you're having a hard time finding blood. Yeah, you're stepping on a couple branches here and there or leaves, and you kick the leaf over. Now the blood's underneath. Yeah. Yeah.

I've been down there where you're trying to, you know, pine needles are the worst. Yeah. You're like picking it up. You're like, I had a leaf one time, like, oh, it's just kind of red. And I tasted it. I'm like, I don't taste blood. I taste it. I'm like, nope, that's pee. How do you know what pee tastes like? Well, I've smelled elk pee and it tasted a lot like it smells. Hey, maybe I don't want to reveal all my secrets. Okay.

Oh, man. Well, hey, I appreciate you getting on here and talking about those arrows. I think sometimes we just, you know, everybody, I think a lot of people want to put the best foot forward. They do. And I think everybody's trying to give, and that's one thing with archers, not saying that there's bad information out there. There's a lot of information out there. And there's not anybody on purposely trying to steer people the wrong way. Right. And...

But at the end of the day, it's like, man, you can really overthink it or you can really go down a lot of rabbit holes. And I'm pretty much over the, I'm just going to keep it simple. And I know what works and it has worked. And shot placement, putting animals in front of you. I think if I had advice, you know, people learn, spend more time understanding what they're hunting than geeking out on animals.

and gadgets and percentages and weights and all this other stuff. Because at the end of the day, if you don't put an animal in front of you, none of it matters. I don't think there's enough emphasis on woodsmanship and understanding animals' behavior, body language, all of that. Back to that point where some people will take maybe a frontal shot not at the right time or a longer shot. They're like, well, that was the only shot I had, but...

I've been around long enough and I've passed enough shots to where I know that when you feel like, oh, this is the only shot I have, then the animal makes a decision and keeps coming forward and they present you with a really good shot. I've had that more happen a lot of times. And then sometimes they slip away, but then it's okay because I'll hustle over there and keep calling and then call them back in for a good shot. Or maybe I chase them another day. Yeah. Well, you know, kind of going into that frontal thing.

That's a tough topic for a lot of folks. I like it, but I also know my limitations of distance to shoot it. And my thought process on this is also if I can't hit that size of a spot that I need to hit there, I've got a lot more stuff to miss on a broadside shot. So if I can't put it where it needs to be broadside, if you shoot one in the guts, it's guaranteed death. Yeah. So...

If I shoot one off to the side on a frontal, it's probably a solid bone, not penetration, not into a vital organ to cause death. But going into that is, that kind of goes into what broadhead I choose because like I shot an elk with an expandable because I've never been able to do it because Idaho never allowed it. And I'm like, I'm going to do it. And I did it with a light arrow.

and light poundage and a big cut and it worked great, but I'll probably never shoot it again. Yeah. And people are like, what do you mean? It worked great. And then you say, you're not going to shoot it again. It's because I know I'm an elk caller and 80% of the elk I shoot will probably be coming frontal. Right. And,

I don't think that neck hide, neck hair on an expandable is a good combination. That's a lot of hair. That's a lot of hide. You can't hardly get your knife through it. Yes. And that tells you how much energy is that robbing you to get in there. So because of that,

I'm probably not. But if I was more of a spot and stock and like that elk I shot when I was quiet, yeah, I shot him perfectly broadside. He walks right in front of me, not a care in the world, not even knowing. And I shot him still with a fixed head. But like I say, it was hard for me to do that. Typically, if I was calling that bull, he would have been coming straight on at me at 20 yards and whatever.

Yep. So, but... So, I think the overall takeaway is... Shoot black eagle arrows. Shoot black... Yeah. And, you know, dial in your feet per second and, you know, good sharp rod heads. Get a good head gap. You know, all this stuff, you know, I always really liked that when guys were like, well, I want a 450, not 420. And I'm like, well...

If I shot you with or without the lighted nock, it's really – it's not going to make any difference. Right. Right. And then also, don't yuck other people's yum, right? Yeah. You know, if you're not into it, that's okay. Let them be into it as long as it's legal. Yeah. Yeah. And if somebody does want to shoot 600 grain, 700 grain arrow, by all means, go ahead. And I'm not – you know, because I don't know – you know, I don't know.

what you're doing and why you're doing it as long as you're out there doing it and It makes you happy? Yeah, I mean let's let's all get together because we got enough people fighting against us and We've got it. We got to be able to stand together as hunters and outdoorsman this way of life is

every year in my opinion. Yeah. And it's going to become more question. I feel like people in urban society are so much further disconnected with, with nature and their food sources and, and hunting and all that. They just don't even know they've never been around it. And if, you know, if we look like a bunch of a-holes fighting against each other and can't stand together, how are you to, how are we going to survive? You know, if they divide the hunters, that's,

It's an easy way to conquer it. I mean, we see it in politics. Yeah. Pink Floyd said it all. You know, united we stand. Divided we fall. Divided we fall. Yeah. You know? No, and so just. Yeah. Well, thanks for coming on, man. Yeah. The wind is picking up. Yeah, yesterday the winds came and destroyed our display. Our tent got, out of all these tents, ours was the only one.

Somebody was picking on me. Mother Nature didn't like your tent. I didn't like our tent. So, yeah. No, it's been good here, though. The weather's been pretty good. Yeah. Got a little bit of rain, a little bit of thunder. But for the most part, I'm glad I'm not shooting because it's been kind of windy. Yeah, yeah. Did you shoot? No, I didn't. No. I didn't plan ahead and get a shoot card or whatever. Oh, yeah. I should have. But next year, next year.

We'll have to do it. Yeah. I didn't shoot. I didn't have any plans to shoot. But I feel like if I do, I want to make sure that I'm going with the group of guys that I want to go out with there and kind of do what all the other kids are doing out there, having little side bets and picking on each other. Absolutely. Absolutely. It'll be fun.

So what do you got next? What are you doing? Next up? Next up is summer fun, man. Putting out trail cams and camping and spend time with family and just enjoying my summertime before hunting season starts. Are you doing any other tacks now or not? I don't think so unless you twist my arm and make me go to Utah. Yeah, go to Utah. I'm going to go to Utah. I'm going to do Elk Summit with Ryan Lampert next weekend. Okay. So that's always a good time. Yeah, that'll be fun. If guys have ever get a chance to go out through that.

It's just really cool. You've never... I've never gone. Jason usually goes. He asked me if I could go this year because he can't go. And I have a funeral to go to that weekend, so I'm not going to be able to make it. It's a really, really cool deal. And it amazes me the repeat customers. Oh, yeah. We see guys, you know...

It's a fun experience. It is. Yeah, it's pretty cool to just... It's kind of like DAC. You know, you get to go hang out with like-minded people, and it's not all about...

all the other stuff there's just other things to go hang around good people but ryan ryan has a lot of great information and uh and good guest speakers and stuff like that and so it's in it we've been doing it in different locations all the time too which is kind of cool yeah they always sound like an epic epic locations you know you got in some good hikes and just beautiful back bears the first time we were over there and on the other side of this mountain yeah um

Yeah. We've seen like five grizzlies the first night camped out. That was crazy. Hikes, long hikes. I think I'm going to take my trad bow. Oh, yeah, absolutely. Because he's already going, I'm going to wear these guys out on this 3D course. And so I'm like, well, I don't want to carry a heavy compound with me. That's smart. That's smart. I think Joel Turner and Bodie, we're going to try and shoot traditional. Yeah, you should show Bodie a thing or two about shooting. I will. I'm going to show him.

How to shoot the trad bow. All right. Well, thank you for coming on. I'm going to go find that little boy's room. I'm about ready to have an accident. Want me to find you some pine needles? Yeah, probably. Thanks, Corey. Thanks.

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