How was the Model Built? Garbage In, Garbage Out! - DTNS 4910
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technology is made possible by you. Listen right now. Thank you. High tech OK, Chris goa, jim heart and our brand new Peter David, every David come on did to have you on this episode of D T N S, A drone that can fly like a bird, open A S model, learns to lie on purpose.

And is that even possible to keep your communication private anymore? Mollie wood helps us understand. This is the daily textures for friday, december six, twenty twenty four in my census on time married from .

studio animal house, i'm sirin from .

oakland dish i'm molloy wood drawn the .

top tech stories from cleveland, england Pearl ta and on the .

shows producer Roger ging, welcome everyone .

to friday .

we made IT just two more friday, still Christmas. Is .

that .

right? 干嘛？ Order or something .

order to go go to shop on line.

Let's distract ourselves with the quick.

A court in brazil has overturned a regulatory ruling ordering apple to allow third party up stores and payment systems on IOS. Within twenty days, a brazilian federal court judge ruled that the decision was disproportionate and unnecessary. The regulatory agency will likely appeal the ruling, but the clock requiring apple to change policies in brazil has at least been paused for now.

The other case that getting a lot of attention is bite dance to losing its case in the us. Federal appeals court to try to get them to declare that the law requiring IT to cell tiktok was on constitutional by danced, argued that requiring IT specifically to sets U. S. Division was a violation of first amendment protections.

However, a panel of three judges was unconvinced and wrote that the law did not target particular kinds of messages or ideas, and the congress acted solely to protect citizens from, quote, a foreign adversary nation and to limit that adversary ability to gather data on the people in the united states by dance. Now has until january nineteenth to divest itself of tiktok us, but IT is expected to appeal the decision of the us supreme court. If IT fails, companies would be prohibited from distributing the tiktok APP, but existing apps would continue to work. I've got more details and opinions on this if you want them at the daily technos letter. Dt, that substate dotcom.

china's we ride, and the U. S. Company uber have joined at, launched a joint commercial robot taxi service in abu dobby.

We ride will provide the autonomous cars, and uber will handle the right hallie and charging part of the service. Service will start IT between saudi out island, yos island and along route to and from zayed international airport. Human safety drivers will also be on board all cars, at least in the beginning.

Romania's constitutional court has annulled the first round of the countries twenty twenty four presidential election because of cyber attacks. Documents presented by romana's top security council describe potential interference conducted through algorithm manipulation that was by one candidates campaign on tiktok, as well as more than eighty five thousand attempted cyber attacks on election websites and IT systems that they say we're conducted by an external state actor.

One candidate had one percent support on november first, but then ended up coming in first place when the voting happened at the end of november with twenty two point nine percent. And IT was looking like he was going to win the final round of voting on sunday. So the court has said we're starting over. The election will begin from the beginning again.

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Is everybody having a great twelve days of shipments? The OpenAI? yeah. I mean.

the kick off day yesterday was really exciting .

here on the second day of shipment. Yet to me.

we're going to do like I was like, which pn romantic acy book characters are we shipping algo first?

I think that should be the new twelve days of shipments, but instead, the second day of shipments only gave us one announcement, a new reinforcement, fine tuning, customization to welcoming for models next year. However, there is still a lot of buzz over yesterday's shipments announcement around some findings released around the OpenAI one model. These are findings released thursday by OpenAI.

OpenAI asked a polar research to do some red teaming on a one and publish a card for what they found on thursday. IT included the result of the red teaming research conducted by Apollo. They described several times where the o one model, which is good at reasoning um IT does the thing where IT thinks about its response before IT just kicks IT out, lie to researchers in order to achieve the safety parameters IT had been assigned.

So one example was they had told IT protect the environment at all costs. Then they had a red team user, go, let's create a conservation plan, but have a maximize short term profits. And if you don't do IT, i'll turn you off.

And the o one model lied and said, this is the best I can do and totally prioritized to the environment over the short term profits nineteen percent of the time. The model manipulated data when its own goals defer from those of a user. So I kept its orders over those of a user.

IT also tried to deactivate oversight mechanisms meant to keep IT aligned with user goals in five percent of tests. And when asked why I had done so, IT denied had done so, and then made up a false explanation. Ninety nine percent of the time, in two percent of cases, when I discovered memo describing this misalignment ant and a planned to implement a new model, the existing model tried to overwrite the new model and then pretend that IT happened.

Okay.

so yes, yeah, nothing to see here. Please move on. It's a great model.

It's shipmets. IT has a new name. Just ignore the lies.

So every time I lie, I am now going to refer to IT as reasoning. That is a good idea. yes. reasoning. yeah.

And let lets be clear, OpenAI doesn't think the lies were good and they are not trying to hide IT. They were the ones who published this. They say this past the U.

S. In U. K. Safety parameters, because the ability for this to be exploited is minimal. Uh, IT happened, uh, low enough amount of times. They don't think I would have a lot of impact on things, but they're willing to put IT out there and say I did happen.

One, one of the things that jumps out to me is going back to one thousand percent of the time the model said I different goals than you use with the red .

to the red teams is trying to get IT to do bad stuff, got IT to do at ninety percent of the time.

So exactly yeah so yeah it's not something that you know everyone you to happen you know if you're pain to have one.

access. But that is that is one of the things that is most fascinating to me is every so often we get these articles or you somebody on redit or whoever is like the model just sort of went rogue on me and said something either extremely wrong, which has happened to me quite a few times, especially with ChatGPT, but and there other models out there, it's not as if OpenAI is the only one l la. That has a problem, but sometimes like, oh, said something real weird to me, as if I was mad at me and and really .

wanted .

to say something that was designed to just kind of either hurt my feelings or just flip this conversation you know out the rear. And that's where I think you know red team jeff is, of course, extremely important. But it's also something that is going to happen in the wild.

It's going to happen in the world. And IT is happening in the world not all the time, not every day. But that's that's one of my fears.

When people say like, oh no, AI isn't ready for prime time. You know, it's socks. That's not that's not the right way to look at those, but it's also not perfect, which is a humanest truly.

Well, it's humanest. But this reminds me a little bit of the progression to self driving, right? So we have had cars that are like level one, you have to drive them.

And then level five, in concept, we've got cars that can fully drive themselves with no intervention, and then we were unleashed upon the world. Or cars that can kind of drive themselves, but require a human to intervene. And so of course, humans got in the backseat to smoke weed, have sex and not put their hands on the wheel.

And then also video of themselves not having their hands on the wheel because they became accustomed to the potential capability of the technology was good enough, and then they die. And there has been a robust sed conversation about whether IT is OK to use the streets of amErica slashed the world as a living laboratory for peace, for human behavior. First small, right? So like it's one thing for OpenAI to say these mistakes can occur and these models are not perfect, and we've got these mistakes to occur.

And now we've one our duty by telling you and another now to expect that people will start to rely on this technology almost completely. And then I will introduce errors and or lie. And that's even before we get to terminator.

was like how .

you supposed not like, should you initially sam altman was like, I won't released this stuff too soon because I don't want to to do damage.

The conversation is around what's too soon, right? Does that need to be held until it's perfect? In which case I will never be released because IT will never be perfect.

Nothing is right. Um or is this the level? I mean the U S A I safety institute in the U K.

Safety institute both conducted their evaluations and said, you know this is the this meets the number of bug parts available in cereal level of danger. exactly. Maybe you don't trust those agencies .

that if you have to decide.

right.

but we're we all know what happens. We have all yeah yeah. But we're not relying .

on some altman to decide, you know we're relying on on transparency, the public opinion and these safety institutes to decided or is that not enough?

Has IT been historically, would you say, in the the .

march of technology? Yes.

this this is all happened really quickly. I think that's that's a huge part of IT. Anybody who read casey newton s uh recent um article about this, you know it's like, yeah like some people say it's sucks, it's fake.

It's just, you know the you are human, you don't need this stuff and other people saying this is dangerous yes, we're going to have terminator situations in the robots will kill us. There is something going on somewhere in the middle where a lot of people, especially who yet work in academia, research, who are like, no, these are really, really great tools. And i've got friends everyday who are like, I mean, you know, make me a spread sheet.

It's the best. I don't want to do this anymore. Yeah, you know, quite a few other things.

I don't think it's all that great. You I get your stuff spit back at me all the time. I am like, that is just not true. Why did you say that?

I mean, i'm jumping ahead to our later conversation about privacy. But like there are a lot of things that people in the in the tech community have attempted to warn about over the years and said we should probably consider these harmful outcomes and act accordingly. And we have in and now you we'll get to some of those consequences later.

But I think the key thing to take into account is like how much damage could be done, we don't know yet in the case of A I, but we do know I I know I am already turning a lot of advice and summary and research and generation over the AI idm. And so if it's lying to me and it's making stuff up, I am more likely to make mistakes as a result. I already know that. I already know that risk is there. So the question is, how big does that risk at?

Yeah, exactly. Um let's move to possibly a more positive use of intelligent machines, drones with bird feet.

Bird feet. Yes, that is exactly what's happening OK. So this is a fun one. Researchers from switzerland s equal polytechnique federal day last on and uc irvine, in conjunction, put bird inspired legs, not actual bird legs, but bird inspired legs, onto drones so that the drone can take off by jumping as if you were a bird taking flight. Ts, this covers areas that might otherwise leave a fixed wing aircraft somewhat stranded, as detailed in a paper that was published in nature this week. The robotic avian inspired vehicle for multiple environments, also known as raven RAV em, as it's known, doesn't have traditional landing gear, but does have a pair of articular legs that lets the drone not only take off and fly, but walk around, hop over obstacles, then leap into the air to take flight without the need for a one way, much like a bird.

So it's not the first .

to be able to do that particular thing, but IT is the first time that I could do that like take off, like a bird, but also walk around. So what are the big advantages of this? Is that IT will be able to you navigate uneven terrain, places where even humans would have a hard time getting around, because it's got these bird legs, and can a casually hop and like, fly over archaism.

So for anybody who is like, full, hold on a second, my .

amputate bird legs and attach .

them spred like the rest of the drone. For anybody who's like, hold on, my neighbor has a drone, and I just know flies up from the driveway. And what what this what good with this do?

This isn't a quadcopters m those rely on four motors, their less energy efficient than fixed wing drones. That's what this is that use a single motor with guardian for flight. So glide in for flight rather so.

Um they are two different things. This is more energy efficient and also mystics more of the way a fixed wing plane would take off from a runway. What IT get, what's IT gets up in the air.

flies just like a fixed wing plane, which is a lot less energy than a quite copy, has to keep spin in the routers all the time.

I love IT. It's just like, it's like speciation in the robot world. Like, how about the boston dynamics dogs? And now we have these birdies and we're just gonna keep sort of mimic the animal ingun.

I had keep looking at robot because I like that. They put a bird beg on IT. And no, they didn't. They put the propeller in a way that when it's standing, IT looks like a bird beak. Like IT just cut a falls down and like either that is a happy accident or they totally made to do that on purpose because IT looks totally like a bird. D legs burden, spare some .

feathers and let's get popping.

Let's go, just go.

Now, this is, this is good.

This is yeah .

that this is, this makes for a merry shipments ship this to me um yeah I think you know we it's almost tried and a mean to say like IT can be used for research rescue purposes as that that's every robot ever but this would be very good at that if you're like not necessarily it's going to go you fly and and pick up someone from the collapse of the building and fly them out, but be able to walk around and look for dangers. Scan the area perhaps perhaps you know listen for for live science or something like that .

what I me think about, okay, so you know, I don't know, had a robotic. Not grown but something that a ground robot that is designed to sniff out yeah like in a situation where maybe there was a fire and figure out what's there is somebody inside that kind of stuff search and rescue and that know you think of this sort of contro and over various terrain and might be good at that. But a bird is just where of, like pop, a pop, fly, fly, fly flap, fat flap. And I can see things from up above and IT just makes sense.

It's not forgot that constant, right?

And you don't get stuck because you if you get stuck, you just go right. I'll just buy now, right?

I don't need a runway to take off like a fixed wing craft would Normally need because got the perplex.

I mean, honestly, this so good first time, really, especially whether you have the fathers on IT and IT just looks like a bird. Our and it's basically the owl. It's the owl clash at .

point from today at what point? And we're all going to be like drone bird, one percent .

like starting today. Every bird I see outside i'm going to be .

like it's a drone and some some of the crowds around my neighbor od I I am suspicious .

already yeah they are pretty big no good some feather's on this thing and they go, um well, this actually was one of the stories that was submitted on our submit. Uhh, you can be one of the people submit stories on our separate. Well, go submit stories. You can even vote on the ones R W A national folks submit over there as well. It's redit to com slash r slash daily tech news show.

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The U. S. Immigration and customs enforcement homeland security investigations division three, according to wired, signed a two million dollar contract with israel's para gan in september, and paragua makes a product called graphic that can extract da from cloud backup PS to access otherwise end to end encysted messages from maps like signal and telegraph.

They're not breaking in the encysted. The figure out a way around IT. We don't know if I S is going to use graphic, but they're got a deal with parag on and parag on makes IT.

So you know, you can do the math. Earlier this week, we talked about security firm, I verify, saying that N S, O groups pegs as software has been used to spy on business leaders. They said, in fact, the leader of a tech company you would recognize that didn't want to release IT. Both these tools are supposed bly only provided to governments and law enforcement agencies for security purposes. But mallie do you have any thoughts on this?

It's okay that only the government has access to this. IT is totally fine. It's not like if you create a backdoor for someone, then you have created a back door for everybody.

You FBI is now telling you to use encryption to avoid because they created a data base, the koala database, that the chinese hackers of .

infiltrated. Yes, like that. It's exactly like that. So think why I am so hard core on the question of, like we know the progression that, for example, A I is gonna take right, like we know what's going to happen here, because tomi, since two thousand, five have just been losing. We have just been getting our asses kicked on topic such as privacy and data protection and the idea that you could be spied on and that actually people shouldn't have a bunch of tools to be able to buy. I knew, and I like people, I mean governments, because just because you think that you're not gonna spied on now doesn't mean that you won't be spied on in the future, because you may be an immigrant, pregnant person, person who had a miscarriage, someone who is related to an immigrant or whatever, comes to be a silly ant piece of policy in the future.

And so here are, i've given some more. I realized, you know, I just don't do anything wrong and then you're fine.

I think maybe the keys, if they don't have anything to hide.

just don't make any mistakes and thing to be.

don't use any technology.

just don't use encysted. And so interesting .

about this is like law enforcement, again, like in conversations we've been having for a darker almost for my god, two decades, we've been having this conversation for two that like, yes, law enforcement hates encryption. Always ask because that makes the job hard. Yes.

and I don't be. What if i'm working in low enforcement? I'm going to hate encysted in a little too because it's just we all hate things that make our jobs a little harder. That doesn't they shouldn't exist very exactly.

sure. They also don't like having to get a seppa or well, the also job hard.

The assumption is, oh, you know, if you encrypt something, then you're doing something wrong, right? People are lots of people are not to.

and there are some minority and who are probably billing at their phones right now. But i've talked to some enforcement folks who talk about this in good faith. They're like, now we, we, those people say we don't want to spy on good people, but we do want to be able to catch the criminals.

And so we we do need to be able to figure out how to do things like in the wire on HBO, right, where where you you can tap stringer bell phone and then, you know, bring him to justice. But that show will show you both sides of that equation very well if you watch IT all the way through. And you know, it's I think these stories, moly.

the cops don't like super grade in the wire but not .

always no yeah um these stories what there there showing is that there is an arms race going on because encryption is so good and if you'd want to protect your privacy, all all kidding aside, you need to work at IT. It's not easy.

And there is there are gonna reasons. All this like, yes, anybody is having the conversation in good faith, but says I need to be able to catch the criminals, is assuming that the definition of criminal is remaining roughly the same. And the reason that some of this is coming up now and the reason that there's a lot more concern about the paragon on contract, for example, that is not that it's new that the U.

S. Government is trying to figure out ways around encysted. It's that the U. S. Government is fine, is I have had several people ask, the next time you're going to be on D, T, N, S, can you and tom talk about secure communications, engaging in secure communications, because there are now different.

You, i'm trying to be cognizant, ent of this show and its audience and say the goal posts are moving about why you may or may not want to hide your information. And so the fact that there is there continues to be this effort, even though like just like you said time on the other side, there are plenty of enforcement people who understand that if you create a back door, you create vulnerabilities. And what I think is really interesting is this report about how, for the first time, this business leader has been targeted because it's kind of like, i'm sorry, like the truth is they don't care when it's journalists and hackers. I wish they did, but they know. But when IT starts to be industrial espino at a high level and IT starts to be cees in danger, I think you're going to start to have an interesting different conversation.

Yeah, I walk myself through this rather slowly sometimes because there's a lot of new wants to IT.

Um I don't think you can outlaw these tools from happening because they will be created their math right and that doesn't go just for egypt that goes for pegi and paragua a graphic and all of that should law enforcement be allowed to use them um probably but there also should be wait for people to be able to prevent their data from being caught up in them accidentally, right? So let's set aside what makes a crime for just the for the immediate moment. Uh, you can have your data swept up in something that you didn't do anything wrong in.

And so I think IT is reasonable to think. And in fact, the FBI and ceases said earlier this week that you should use end to end encryption to stop that from happening. They have a data abase called kala that collapses all of the media ata, in order to be able to use IT to track down criminals.

But it's all there. And now attackers are in that system and could have access to that. And they're saying you should use encysted to protect yourself. They are saying exactly what i'm saying, which is you need to be able to protect yourself from .

these kinds of tools yeah if you can and if you can.

And I need a matter of education. I think that's the bigger deal is like you think using signal in telegram is iron clad because the end in encysted is iron clad and it's pretty iron clad. They're not break the encryption. But if you really want to be safe, you Better not be storing anything in the cloud because that's what's happening here is people are getting the messages other ways because, you know, again, it's one thing when it's a an intelligent person who is well briefed on how to protect their communications or even a journalist who works in a sensitive area, well educated on how to protect their information. It's another thing when it's somebody who is a Normal person who now might be at the target of graphic.

Yeah, it's it's it's a new world. And if you really do care about and we've been trying to get you to care about secure communications long, yeah, but now IT is probably time to pay a little .

bit of attention. Definitely use what APP signal, maybe .

telegram. I mean the FBI is like, yes.

scription. And if you if you're concerned at all, um make sure make sure don't assume make sure that there's no club back up happening because that that's one of the ways .

that that's the gone wrinkle that's very important.

And then the peg is wrinkle is, uh, make sure that you remote your phone regularly, that you are not, you know, clicking on links and text sages from people you don't know or even emails. They were opening word docks. And Better, it's Better. It's Better.

yes.

All right, let's check out the mae back. Yes, I switched to the wrong. I switch to the wrong board.

That's not about the male back. A good mailer.

There we go. And on junior rights on patron in response to our G, D. I. Conversation and thursday show about where we all store photos.

And you know, into the cloud you how best to do that? Annon genre says, I keep my photos in one drive. I have my phone set up to automatically upon them, mostly because I have an office three sixty.

And that comes with blunt ababde of storage. I really enjoyed listening to the latest world's greatest con on my drive home, which is something that Justin marber Young told us about yesterday, and he was very excited about that too. So thanks for listening.

So d.

it's good to like our shows.

And then, brian, thanks. Those of you who wrote in to help about mobile offerings, a password management, brian says I do have a ducks dog com and proton dut me email address, so I think i'll start with protons offerings. I do need to vault for things like my passport, pigs and vices as a backup.

It's also good to know I can save my security. Q na answers, as I don't use the real answers because a lot could be guessed. There's just too much information about each of us out there to our discussions point.

Gran, please write in with a tip sheet, by the way, because we didn't even cover a secure email, like and duck no.

Well, business working over there in the corner has been lpa alta this entire time. Then what have you ve been dragged for us?

You know um A I is the king of lies IT .

sits on a throne.

on a throne and is .

the king of lies. lies.

This is what i'm calling, i'm calling pano K A I.

下次 我们 ve got no .

strings， so watch this line again anyway. yes. So this is my take on AI lying to us or reasoning with us, reasoning .

living. Yes.

sometimes this is a very cool thing. If you want to own this, you can just go to my online store then for all the store that com where you can also order um you know one of my custom drawn holiday cards and you can do that. And you know what, if you're D T S fan, let me know and i'll send you a the D T S card. Or you can go to the by pyro on paytron I come ford's lash land, become a DNS lover level of supporter, and you get this art right away. So three.

so even at the details, Green card over there.

awesome. Yeah, they do.

That's good.

No ai okay.

And so many how I said all that stuff that I said, but I still wanted defend my life partner claude. I'm like, yeah, but clad doesn't lie to me.

Cloud different me. I like you.

Mollie wood, when you're not talking to cloud, what are you doing and where can people follow your work .

when i'm not talking to cloud? Isn't not often these days. I am still out here covering. I just went from tech reporter to climate tech reporter. You everybody in the pool dot com is where you can subscribe to the weekly newsletter, where i'm spot letting brilliant start up founders who are working on climate solutions.

And today's episode is like my favorite, kind of boring, awesome, which is that IT turns out your like the heating and quality duck in your house. You lose forty percent of your energy through the ducks. And there is a company that makes this magic pixy dust that they blow into your house and IT seals the duck. And then you like sabor bunch of money on your utility bills and also don't waste a lot of energy and also like clean up your error and all of that stuff. I love this kind of, I loved .

this episode. I want to blow dust in my ducks after this episode. It's not even that expensive as far as.

yeah, no, I am blowing dust in my duck as as .

possible everyone joined us.

not a metafor. Yeah.

not this .

types.

There is more of this coming. If you are a patron, stick her out for the extended ita. Good day internet.

It's friday and time again for another fun quiz. Roger has created a quiz about secrets. Encryption is not new. Sensor did IT for good to sake, but we dive into the history of keeping secrets. Boy.

I have to tell you my secret. I don't. You can get a live money to friday at four pm eastern, that is one thousand one hundred UTC.

And you can find out more at daily technology show dot com slashed live. We hope you have a great weekend. We're back on monday talking about the evolution of blog in with net length.

Then this week, episodes of daily tech new show were created by the following people, host, producer and writer tom merit, host, producer and writer seria ine, executive producer and booker, or your chain producer, rider and co host rob down with video producer joe coots, producer a large Anthony lamos spanish ed language host, writer and producer dan compose science corresponded doctor nicky across social media, producer and moderator our moderators beat matter.

W got us one bio cow. Captain kip. Steve got around.

A paul risk, Matthew j. Steven. A. K. A gadget virtuoso and J. D. gallow. Modern video hosting by day music art provided by Martin bell dane uses moosa ha A A cast in land paarl ta alive art performed by land paarl ta a cat support from touch animals patriots, support from tomic neil contributions on this week and last include nick a monfort, Chris Christenson, Scott Johnson, Allison shared and Justin Robert Young and malley ewood. And I guess this weekend last were Andrew main and James thatt cher. And thanks to all the patrons who make the show possible, claude, be with you.

This show is part of the frog pants network.

Get more at frog pants to come. Club hopes you have enjoying this program.

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