Will the Sugar Diet Heal America? What Means MAHA's Casey Means with Joshua Rainer
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Well, we're back for another discussion on the state of Maha, both as a policy and as a cultural moment that we're in. The movement, it means a lot to a lot of people. Kennedy defined it, but it was something, you know, these things have been going on before him, and they will go on after him. And to discuss this, we have Joshua Rayner with us. How you doing, sir?

I'm doing well, David. How's it been? How have you been? Doing well. So, you know, last time we talked to you, you were telling us about how you were eating this strange raw diet that almost killed you. And then that guy that was the guru behind that, I saw him, he did a drive-by tweet out on you after he saw our interview where he was saying, hey, you didn't do it right. But did you settle that all up? Did you get that raw stuff figured out?

Yeah, you know, it's funny that the people in that, you know, every diet sort of exists on top of the community of the people that follow it, right? Like, it doesn't really exist outside of its members in many ways. And for some reason, you know, whenever like you leave something, then all of a sudden, like the people in that don't really like you anymore, because you left their thing. But for some reason, like people just like they make up rumors.

And one of the things is always they, you know, so that diet, the primal diet, which is like this raw diet by Agnes von der Plan. It's like it's his construction totally. You know, it's all raw meat and organs and raw dairy and raw eggs. And then there's this like component where you make green juice and the green juice is supposed to be like very important, you know, like celery and some other greens, etc.

Um, and everyone keeps saying that I didn't do it. Like I didn't do the green juice. And so I didn't do the diet, right. But I drank it every day. Like, you know, for some reason they just said I didn't do it, but I did do it. Um, but it's funny because they always say, whenever someone like says the diet didn't work for me, they say they didn't drink the green juice because a lot of people don't, but

But people do also. And so I drank it, but it's like, it sounds like a mid two thousands M night Shiloh mon horror movie that you're in where you didn't drink the drink green juice is why the creatures attack too. Yeah. And I, and I can't escape the, uh, um, the rumors. Um, you know, it's, it's funny how, um, you brought a plague to the village cause you didn't drink the green juice.

Well, you know, I think like all especially when it comes to health, there's always this like conspiratorial element where you're trying to figure out when you realize like how bad things are, then you try to figure out like why are they the way that they are? Like who made them this way? Like how could things be this bad?

And so, of course, like people inevitably and we'll get into this with the Maha stuff, but like they say, like this person is controlled or this person is a shill or this person is that thing because no one trusts anything.

And if you've ever in your entire life been on the end of any kind of conspiracy where people are just like making stuff, making stuff up about you, like whole cloth, you're just like, where did you get, where did you get this from? Like, you know, I could be like looking at the green juice in my own hand right now. And someone would be like, you're not drinking the green juice. I'm like, it's right here. Yeah. That's part of the digital age too. You know, people just don't know what's real anymore. Right.

Yeah. And of course it's not only that, but we live more online. And so there's a, there's a greater distance, both like physically, tangibly in any conceivable way from us and the subject matter. And there's a religiosity tied into diets and you can't really escape it. I think that's why all the religions always have a usual diet, right? You know, all the

All the religions of the ancient past always had prescribed, uh, most of the time, some type of prescribed, uh, dietary, uh, what's good and what's not good list. And they also had a certain ceremonial rituals and rights surrounding how you would prepare food and how you would eat food. All of that is tied into, I think it's a vestige of our cannibalistic origins. Like we, you know, if you look anthropologically back into our far past, it seems like there was a common, um,

kind of primitive cannibalism, right? That a lot of different people groups developed emergently kind of maybe in one place, but perhaps kind of at the same time. And the cultures that did not develop ritual cannibalism to satisfy kind of a kind of pent up bloodlust or something or some kind of a need for collective purging and unification.

tended to not survive as effectively as those that had evidence of ritual cannibalism. So it seems as if that kind of careful precision around what is clean and what is unclean and how would we handle consumption.

And what is good for the life force and what is bad for the life force, what is good for the community's hygiene, what's bad for the community's hygiene are tied into some deep anthropological forces and who we are as human beings, which is why every diet has a religiosity to it. Yeah.

Yeah, I mean, you know, we need rules, right? That's how we pass on information from generation to generation. And we need scapegoats. Every diet has a scapegoat. What's the scapegoat for the bioenergetics, by the way? Some people say it's PUFA, you know, like... And then what would be the scapegoat diet clan of the bioenergetic? Keto people, yeah. Well, you know, in some ways, because it is...

you know, everyone says, no, no, no, the cult that I'm in is not a cult, right? Like, and so to say like, oh, no, no, no, the, the, uh, I'm the repeat thing is the only thing that's like free from cultish behavior. Cause we absolutely have cultish behavior, but the one thing that I've noticed and that, um, you know, uh, so one of the things I wanted to say was like, of course, you know, you said every religion has like some sort of dietary prescription.

And now since fewer and fewer people have religion, they make the diets more and more of their religion. But just like every religion is very, very different as far as, you know, and it's not even just what the specifics are, but how they handle them. A lot of diets are a lot more dogmatic than others. And so, you know, if you take like, let's maybe just simplify this and take like vegan and take,

carnivore and take a bio energetic perspective. If you're a vegan, it's like it is so forbidden to ever eat an animal product that like to do so it's like you're you're like banished, right? Like you've been exiled, you've committed the greatest moral crime possible. And so because it relies so heavily on this moral claim, it's like you're kind of like there's like no coming back from that kind of a thing.

Whereas on carnivore or a keto approach, they might say that, you know, you need to avoid carbohydrates like the plague and you need to avoid plant foods. But you can cheat like as much as you want, as long as you sort of like acknowledge that

Like that was bad. Right. It's still a sin ritual. Yeah. Yeah. And, and you know, like if anyone has ever been in a carnivore, like Facebook group, for instance, if anyone dares recommend a food that is not carnivore, if you recommend someone like eat a pickle or anything, it's,

you know, you'll like your comment will get deleted. You'll get banned for like giving recommendations that fall outside the line. But people on carnivore cheat on their diets all the time. People on keto cheat on their diets all the time. And not only that, but they still identify with the diet. They go, I'm keto. And then what that basically means is I eat low carb on the weekdays and on the weekends, I have like a cheat meal or something. And then, you know, they might still get results until like I'm keto.

And this one thing that I say a lot is that I think a lot of people who do the best on very restrictive diets do so because they do not adhere to them strictly. And so the carb binging is kind of saving your metabolism. And if you think about the evolution of the carnivore sphere,

Um, you know, for a lot of people don't know about it, like prior to Sean Baker and Paul Saladino, like they just never heard of it. And there's no concept of what such a thing, um, of that, it's such a thing existed and how it functioned. And it was primarily, um, you know, referred to as this, like, it was called like the zero carb diet more so than it was called carnivore. And it was kind of more of your like beef, salt and water type of diet.

It did not include organs. It did not include dairy. And what's interesting is that a lot of people from that community say that when you actually try to make it seemingly more well-rounded is when you ruin the diet. Like if you start to eat liver, you ruin the carnivore diet.

Which, you know, is so vastly different from the way that some people understand it now because the nose to tail concept became so popular. And you would think it makes more sense to eat this like well-rounded diet versus like just a steak every day. And then if you see the fact that like take like a Sean Baker who he's closer to like I just eat steak diet diet.

He'll like cheat on his diet though. Like he'll, you know, he talks about like, I'll eat ice cream at my son's birthday and whatever. And he just like goes back to carnivore. And then you have like a Saladino type who started very, you know, diverting from the diet so much that he had to rebrand and give himself a new name. But there's so many people who still like go through the world kind of taking on the carnivore identity while doing like a Saladino plant, animal based diet.

They might drink a ton of raw milk and they might be there. I think carnivore now means just eat a lot of meat, you know? Yeah. Yeah. That's what it, then that, what, that's what it has become to mean now. And so that's what I'm saying is like, there's tons of leeway to do it, but you still sort of like put your stand on, um, that it should look like this more tightened up version versus like the, the bioenergetic approach, what you see the rate. And this is one of the reasons why I just like find it the most interesting is

is from the Ray Peet perspective, because first off, you know, he didn't come up with bioenergetics, right? He sort of came into this school of thought and developed it much further. And he was building on the work of all these other Gilbert Ling and, um, Broda Barnes and all these people. Um,

And people, they all had different, you know, like Rhoda Barnes had a kind of a lower carb diet that he recommended for his thyroid patients and stuff. So, right. Yeah. There was tons of variety. And that's the thing, too, is like if you're there is no, you know, it's like a meme, but there is no repeat diet. The goal is to get the effects on your body.

Like you can eat a ketogenic diet and if you do it in a certain way, you are peeding in a sense, right? You just, you know, you have to work with what gives your body the reaction that you want, the response that you want. And so within that is like, you know, you see people eating all different kinds of foods and experimenting with all different kinds of foods and you can kind of eat whatever you want as long as you sort of like reify, I'm working on the metabolic rate.

And that's the thing that I find more interesting is it's not, you're not a slave to the food choices. But the religiosity is that you have to show your doctrinal math of homework about how your particular thing is helping your metabolic. Sure. You always want to show the class. What is your math? Show me your math. How does this help your metabolism? There is that. I answered that question.

Well, you know, there's also, there's also just like vibes based peeting, you know, you're like, Oh, I was just really craving this thing. And that's kind of how I approach it myself too. And it's like, if I get the results, that's all that I'm really concerned about. And so a lot of people who like are off put by the Ray P community for whatever reason, they try to like identify, you know, what the sort of, um,

what the forbidden fruit is of the diet or what the, what the kind of like evil element of food, whether it's PUFA or some other thing. But I think what the, the great thing about it is we're identifying that there's all these factors that are anti-metabolic and we're just trying to combat them. It seems like within the health community space move, PUFA is the villain of the general diet.

or, you know, landscape, nutritional landscape of the West for the Ray Peet community. But I would say maybe the heresy from the health space move for the Ray Peet community would be dramatic reduction of consumption of carbohydrate, right? You know, that really is kind of the, whoa,

You're leaving the plantation here. What are you doing? You know, that's going to harm you. And then, and there's a, and there's a kind of mimetic rivalry with, you know, taking people like Sean Baker and say, Hey, look, his blood work or whatever. He's so stressed out. I know he's spazzing and eating ice cream whenever no one's looking, you know, there's this kind of cannot accept dogmatism, which is totally not Ray P, you know?

Yeah, yeah, absolutely. You know what I mean? There very much is this... Do not do low-carb or else you've lost, you know? You're cheating. You're losing weight, but you're not going to be healthy. You know, you lived 100 years old on low-carb. That's a fluke. There's only one way your metabolism can be humming happily in long life, right? I mean, that's generally...

I would say, would you not agree that that's kind of the heresy to make in the health space world for the repeat people? Well, yeah, from the repeat people, it's, it's very anti-keto and low carb in general. And, you know, but the reason is like, you know, it's just kind of seeing all these people run into problems. And, um,

And not only that, but most of us who are in the rapier community have already been low carb and we ran ourselves into the ground somewhere. And but like, OK, are you familiar with X fat loss on Twitter? Yeah. Yeah. So like his you know, I've been talking to him a lot lately and it's like he really can't figure you know, he has already lost so much weight, but he still has a lot more to lose.

But the most success he's ever had is on like a pure heavy cream diet where he like just drinks heavy cream for like 90% of his calories. And his TSH, his thyroid stimulating hormone is lower than like all of us Peters. So his thyroid health is probably in a really great shape, but there's still something else in his metabolism that's not working right because he's still very overweight.

So it's like redirecting to reverse thyroid or something or something else? Yeah, I mean, it's hard to know. You know, that's the thing is like when people try to reduce the metabolism to calories in, calories out, it's just like, you know, I know people who say like, oh, I don't a big part. A big part of the problem is people say the same words to mean different things. And so someone will say, I lost weight and I wasn't in a calorie deficit.

And what they mean is I didn't restrict my calories. And what the person who hates that they said that hears is you're defying the laws of thermodynamics. And so they're just meaning different things. And I think that's a very big problem, especially because you have people who already kind of find themselves on opposing teams and

And if, when it comes to health, it's like, there's really no benefit to me proving you wrong. If I can't, if, um,

that exercise isn't actually showing something that is going to benefit you and other people, right? Otherwise, you're just like battling with each other for bragging rights. Well, all of these things are really, you know, there's a flip side. The positive side is people want to have joy. They want to have vitality. They want to live an abundant life, right? And they know they can look back to their childhood or some other part of their life where they felt more

uh, alive and hopeful and excited and healthy and mobile and things go awry or whatever. And so it's like a big giant collective who done it story, you know, what happened, you know, like a detective story, right? Who, like you were saying earlier, what caused this to me, what's happening to us all. Right. And so underneath that layer is the deeper meaning of like fear of death, death, anxiety, you know, I don't mean death, anxiety as in,

you know, like fear of an acute death, like you slip off of a, like a cliff or something, you're afraid you're going to die. Like that kind of fear of death is obviously kind of normal and healthy. But I mean, like just this latent fear of like, I have a finite time on this earth.

And I want to crawl. If you're on a conveyor belt headed towards death, you're like a Looney Tunes character trying to crawl, you know, upwards past, you know, opposite of the conveyor belts momentum, trying to resist that. Right. And, and, and then the repeat, you know, kind of offers this vision that he's built on with other folks, like you mentioned earlier, that says that, you know, the human body is not meant to decay. Right. And so there's a very Christian vision.

it's a very christian subtext to this diet i mean honestly where it's like the best is yet to come right this idea of like the golden age is ahead of us not behind us right you know this

In the ancient world before the Western world that we have, which is Christian, we had this sense that the golden age was behind us. So it's kind of in keeping with the individual memory of your metabolism from your childhood and everything kind of declines through stress or whatever. The best is behind us. You know, the golden age of our society was behind us thousands of years ago before the Titans or whatever. But when you have

You know, this Christian framework where, you know, the best is yet to come. The future is going to be greater than the past. The garden is the beginning of creation. And the city of God coming into the garden is the culmination of creation. Now there's this expectation to wrestle against death. Right. So that makes an interesting kind of dynamic that the bioenergetic world is kind of playing with.

And then you, but you, but you have this overall within the dietary world. And I didn't know we were going to go here, but it's fun to talk about it. Um, but you have this kind of general, you know, people are afraid of social death, right? It's like social death is almost worse than like worst than is worse than physical death because social death is like living death. Like you're, you're ostracized because you're ugly or you're sick or you're unhealthy or

moody or whatever. You can't get your mood right. You're too low energy. You're too depressed. You know, you can't, you can't find a healthy, uh, you know, um, you know, uh, mating opportunity to marry and have covenantal bliss and all these things. So people have all these kind of like, uh, social death anxieties that are mixed in within the nutritional and health space that I think are part of this whole drama that we're playing out.

Well, yeah, I mean, you know, that there's a reason why people kill themselves is because they find the physical death to be better than the living death that you're describing. Right. And there's that escape from there. And, you know, that's you can never avoid this, the the mimetic concepts that are attributable to all these different.

belief systems or approaches or outlooks on what it is that you're trying to accomplish with any given strategy. And that's why, I mean, I just find

I mean, fitness itself is very enjoyable, but what underlies it is the biological system. And that's where nutrition is in many ways the fundamental layer because you're really dictating the state of the organism before it can do any given activity.

And I think that's why so many people are drawn to nutrition, you know, whether someone makes it their like their profession or just a hobby or, you know, just some because they're trying to change their their state, their reality. And anyone who has really well, you know, you mentioned like, where did it all go wrong?

Most people felt, you know, people, everyone had varying degrees of health, but most people felt much better when they were a kid than they do now. Right. And so it's like, we know that we know that it can be better. And then we feel that we've lost something and we just don't really, like you said, we don't really realize how it all happened. And one of the greatest feelings you can possibly have is realizing that you can get that back.

And potentially, like you were saying, have something even better than you had before. And a lot of people, you don't, you, you won't know that until you felt that. And that is what stimulates all this kind of not just optimism, but curiosity of trying to get there. And that's, you know, I have felt, I very quite often feel like I'm a different person at different times. And I'm always like trying to like identify myself.

how that version of me was existing versus this version of me. You know, I'll have, I'll have a day or days or weeks or months where I'm just like, I was just crushing everything. I was just on top of the world. Everything was like going my way. And other times you're just like, man, I really screwed that up. Or like, why was I just sucking so much during that time?

And then when you've actually taken on an intervention and you feel the difference, you go, oh, no, there's really something here. There's really something here. And that's where you really find value to something. And that is why people get so overly dogmatic in nutrition because they try to diet and they got the initial high.

And if the diet isn't truly based in something that is, that has longevity to it, and it's just that initial high, they will still, they will feel so tied to that because they think I need to get it back somehow. I need to do it harder or I need to go more extreme. And they kind of spend years clawing back at something which they'll never reach again. Mm-hmm.

And people get high off of the notion of doing, of achieving a secret knowledge or experience with other people. Right. And that's the, right. That's the, that's what makes it tribal. Right. It's like we all unlocked our thyroid to level 42 or whatever. It's like, you know, it's like that experience of doing something together, right. That other people in the world around you don't understand. Right. And, um,

And that's what makes, you know, the rapy in the bioenergetic world is very subversive and contrarian. You know, low carb used to be the top contrarian diet.

you know, you know, because in eighties you had low fat, I guess, but then you had the nineties and all this and it's like low carb starts off with Atkins and people were just like, you know, everything was just all, and it still is all about bread and grains and corn and stuff like that. And then, you know, low carb people were like the edgy contrarians and now, you

you know, boomers got on board with the low carb thing because they saw results. They were able to lose some weight and stuff maybe, you know, and so everything went really keto. Keto became, uh,

the kind of, it's still not the establishment, you know, nutritional paradigm, but because of the, you know, the power of the big food companies and everything and how they control health and government. But keto is basically the, the recognized opposition stance. Right, right. And now you have this, and then you have this bioenergetic thing, which looks like this subversion of the subversion, you know? So it's like, what is this, you know? Well, so that, that's what's been interesting is that we were able to shift the,

Maybe not, like you said, the mainstream established accepted position, but we were able to shift enough of the population into going saturated fat is not bad. Cholesterol is not bad. You can eat meat. You're talking about the keto world when you say we? Yeah. Well, when I say we, I kind of mean like – Paleo world or something?

Yeah. You know, I, I still, I sort of came, came up as like through the paleo world and, and I still in many ways think of my current interventions as still having some kind of root in that, even if at this point it's fairly separated. And so, so the, like the paleo movement is,

really gets to take, I mean, you can always go, well, this came before this and this came before that. Paleo is what got big enough first because Atkins is like, the way a lot of these diets go is like, this is a weight loss fad. You do Atkins to lose weight. You're not like, you don't just like live Atkins. And paleo was the first thing to sort of counter vegetarianism as a lifestyle.

That goes, these are the foods that I just eat in general. These are the, this is my diet, like for my life. This is the way I approach food as a general framework. And then, so when I say, yeah, when I say we, it's like, we're all, I feel like many of them, I mean, I was quite literally like a part of, I was in the paleo world. But anyone who has been within the health and fitness space for a while and has been on

kind of this side of things. I kind of like, I feel like we all sort of fit into a we of sorts, but I mean, if you, if you're a repeat or you're a keto carnivore, you're still telling people that saturated fat is good. So in that sense, there's still this common, this common ground. And so, yeah, we were able to get so many people to totally flip on saturated fat. Now, when you go have a conversation with somebody, the chances that they are going to affirm what you say about saturated fat is fairly likely because

And especially when you see the Maha movement, the Maha movement is very much like paleo-esque. Maybe not explicitly keto, but there's still a very heavy anti-carb and most specifically anti-sugar angle to all of this. So what I was getting to is that where

saturated fat used to be the satanic element of diet. It is clearly sugar now. It is clearly sugar. Because I will, you know, on social media, I will see all of these Maha type people in comments. I will go to Maha events and everyone is on board with meat being good and seed oils being bad. But still the vast majority of them think that sugar is the devil. Sugar is poison and

And they might still think I should avoid seed oils, but they will never treat anything as evil as sugar. And that'll be very interesting to see if we can get people over that one. Because in order to make saturated fat look better, sugar almost had to be demonized to take the place.

But a common enemy of the low-carb paleo world and the bioenergetics people mostly is the grains, too. They hate the grains. That's another common enemy that they fight against. Yeah, I mean, grains are certainly an element of it, but it's very easy to get a quote-unquote crunchy mom to go for sourdough bread.

Because like you're sort of told like this is this is the natural version or this is the way your ancestors did it. And sugar to people is a white powder that was made in a lab. That's how they think. That's what they think sugar is. It's like they don't actually recognize that sugar just comes from sugar cane and it was juice that was dried. Yeah. And then they. And what.

I think it was Paul Saladino who will say there's not a lot of good evidence. I don't know, and I don't want to put words in his mouth, but I know he's one of those guys that's kind of... He's come around to fruit sugars, fruit and honey, but he still cautions against industrial sugar. He'll still say refined sugar. Because he says, and he bases it on what? Some studies or something that show that there's some kind of indication that refined sugar has something, you know, metabesogenic or something. You know, you have to...

You have to think about who the messenger is and why they say anything in the way that they do. And so Paul came, Paul was a vegetarian before, I think he was actually vegan before he went to carnivore. And then within a short amount of time following, like, I don't think he had been carnivore for a year before he wrote his book and started selling it. And then I don't even think he was carnivore for a year after that until he started adding in a lot more

plant foods. And so the way that like, if you take Paul as a person, the way that he branded himself as carnivore MD, and really took on that, you know, I mean, the logo of his the cover of his book was half of his face and like half of like a lion or something, right. And it's this, there's this very strong, like primal caveman animalistic, carnivorous animal brand to it.

And then at some, and that's why I'm saying like, you know, the animal based thing, you can eat a lot of meat and a lot of animal products and still be getting like 50% of your calories from plant foods and carbohydrates. And it's like, what, what is, what makes this animal based, right? Like there's the word omnivore, right? You're not a carnivore. Um,

You know, like all of these words are brands. There's nothing wrong with them on its own because these all convey just like any word conveys ideas to people and they mean something within a certain context. But for his brand from shifting from the carnivore is the most natural human diet. Then he has to shift to animal based is the most natural human diet. And you can justify all the fruit you want from a natural perspective. And then all of a sudden it's like sugar is just like this fine line.

Because, you know, he would say like it doesn't exist in in nature kind of a thing. And from there, it's just like, you know, the person who's telling you that, you know, from the take the raw diet, for example, the person who's telling you that you shouldn't cook your meat is telling it to you on their phone, right?

which, you know, is like the most incredible technology I've ever seen. And it's just like, it doesn't mean that some things that are natural can't be bad and some things that are unnatural can't be good. But, you know, you're just trying to find like, what's the logic being used here? I remember the first interview I did with Ray P and I was learning about his stuff while I was interviewing him, you know, with Tucker Goodrich. And he came from the paleo world like me.

And I just remember, you know, Ray was recommending drinking lots of milk. And I was like, yeah, you mean raw milk, right? He's like, no, just milk. And I'm like, what the hell? What is this? You know? And then you learn that everything he, you know, he's always promoting the cheapest, you know, working class option, you know, white button mushrooms. No, you mean like organic, you know, uh,

you know, holistic, natural, hand-raised mushrooms that are organic with human feces and stuff. No, no, no, just regular shit trash mushroom. There is nothing that people won't do this with. So, okay, you can have bread, you can...

You can have meat, but it has to be grass-fed meat. You can have bread, but it has to be sourdough bread. It becomes a rich man's trap, right? You know what I mean? It's like, good God, you know, to spend that kind of, it has to be cut. You can eat meat, but it needs to be killed freshly that day.

Right. Well, then, so what's funny is like, as you get further away from like the, the more natural foods, like that, it still happens because, you know, okay, so then you can have milk, but it has to be raw milk. And then here's, I love this one. You can have Coke, but it has to be Mexican Coke, right?

right? Like, like there's, it's just, you know, there's a, there's a meme, uh, or I wouldn't call it a meme. It's like a, an infographic where people are trying to say that, um, Armin and Hammer, um,

Baking soda is bad because it's synthetic. And then the natural one, which is Bob's Red Mill, is the good one. But actually, the Bob's Red Mill version has a lot more like heavy metals and contaminants to it. But it's natural because it's from the ground. And I've seen that thing got shared thousands. And I mean, what I mean is I've seen it like show up on like individual cases like hundreds of thousands of times.

And people just think that there has to be this like, no, no, no, this is the good one or the better one of it. And it has to fit my preconceived notion that the thing that is more natural is always the better thing. Right. Every single time there's like without fail. And that's kind of the...

I mean, there's different ways to call it, but one way to say it is like Edenism, where it's trying to get back to that perfect ancestral harmony of the past. Again, there's a pagan move there, which rejects and has suspicion towards any kind of industrial process that's gone on to the food or whatever. If you're producing milk in plastic gallons that's been heated and all that,

you know, Ray P, you know, is, is not leading you in the right direction if he's telling you that's okay to drink, right? Especially skim milk, where that's not how it is in nature or, you know, you know, white button mushrooms with pesticides and everything on it and plastic wrap. Don't eat that. Don't eat regular carrots that are not organic. But he was trying to, which one of the things that really appealed to me is that I, I kind of see these things politically too. And he was trying to

Just give people the cheapest staples he could find as little subversive toolkits to kind of like anchor some health effects to like get your head back in the game to coordinate. Because that's what he was always talking about. It's like, you know, there's all these groups that are anti-authoritarian, but they don't know how to coordinate and organize. And if you listen to a lot of his interviews, that's all he's talking about is like, I want people to organize.

like organize and destroy these murderous psychopaths some way, somehow nonviolently, some method you need to develop a coordination and you should. And, and, and the diet was kind of like the starting point to organize a conversation around it. The smart way to do since how human beings are, you know, religion and diet kind of goes hand in hand, but he was all, but you know, he was trying to take staple stuff. So it's like working class, you know, if you, if you had a local union, you know,

and you're a part of the union, you're working for general owners, you are going to get the white button mushrooms. You're not getting the organic stuff, the fancy mushrooms from the rich people's whole foods. You're going to get the regular gallon of milk. You're not getting the fancy stuff. You're going to get the regular carrot bag. Yeah, that's the thing that I really... Sometimes you just need to hear something in a certain way to illuminate something. And that is why the term energy has gotten so...

uh, mutilated by like new age hippie stuff. Um, and it's gotten so like overdone, but within like the, the, the bioenergetic concept of having energy and kind of all the ways you can look at things like that, you know, um, I forget the exact quote, but there was a race at something about, you know, when you behave in a certain way or you're more irritable, it's like you actually do that because you don't have enough energy to give, right.

Right. So you're actually trying to conserve your energy because you are you do not have a surplus. And so, you know, like you like you mentioned, a lot of his recommendations would work perfectly fine for, you know, a person from from lower means who cannot afford the, you know, go to Erewhon and buy a $40 gallon of raw milk.

But not just that is that like what you find is so many people make regardless of their financial means, they make the wrong decisions of what's actually moving the needle. They're worried about all this stuff that it's like, no, no, no, that's not don't, you know, and, and, you know, like Danny's Danny Roddy is great as sort of like a disciple of Pete. And, you know, he would say, look, some people do better with raw milk and some people do better with ultra high temp pasteurized milk.

Right. So you have to figure out the thing that works for you and stop trying to fit into this. Like you got to be on the hip trend of what people in the health sphere are doing. Do the thing that just that works. And a lot of food, though, that to be fair to still man, that that that.

Because I have, I mean, I could get into it, and I don't want to go too far down this trail, but it just seems, you know, because I've been in the bioenergetic world for a few years here after I met Ray and stuff, and it seems like for the most people, at least in my American context, you look at all the people who have been doing the SAD diet in various ways, various SAD counter diets,

for decades and, you know, trying to get them to just like sugar max is not, you know, like you're going to get way more effective results if you're just trying to help people solve obesity, for example, just doing a low carb thing because it's you take one macro down and you generally kind of let leave the other ones kind of, you know, you don't have to count them. So you're not worried about, oh, my God, how many proteins that I have, how many you just it's very simple for the masses.

Once you figure out what a carb is, you just kind of count and you kind of generally find out what that threshold is for you and you'll watch the weight kind of flow off. Now, people have a hard time getting back onto carbs after they do that long term, we know. But it gets the job done. A lot of people, when you do a low-fat thing,

Then you have to, you know, you got to watch, okay, well, what about how, how low or high is your protein and how, you know, so because it's like a lot more complicated, I have found, you know, for folks to, to just, oh, okay, just swap it. All right. I'll just stop eating a lot of fat and just eat carbs and, and, and the, and the, and the vacuum of that.

And it doesn't work. That's why, I mean, it's a harder thing because people are so built on the stress mechanism of the pathway that keto kind of exploits in an efficient way that it's almost like, in other words, do you think it's more stressful for your average? I know you're not really in that space necessarily, but your average 50-year-old or 60-year-old or 45-year-old

to be, okay, I've done decades of seed oils and all this stuff. So my body is really good at free-floating fatty acids all over me. So let's just lean into that and do that in a healthy way with a healthy keto rather than trying to climb back up the mountain, reverse decades of

of like, you know, training your body to burn fat, right? And start burning glucose efficiently. That's a taller order, it seems like when you've had. So in other words, is it more stressful to try to go back? I know this is kind of broad strokes, but if you have, you know, your basic system, which is what you have, your thyroid system, that you have the stress mechanism as your backup energy system that paleo worlds kind of lean into efficiently and try to clean up the mess around it.

Is that not necessarily an easier way to, you know, skin a cat than the other pathway of like, nope, we're going to go all the way back and like force our bodies to like relearn what we should have always been on since we were little kids. And just like, because that doesn't seem to be, that doesn't seem to be as intuitively easy for the masses who are never going to be counting calories and counting macros and doing all the things that the, you know, the, the, those in the health space nerd types are going to do.

Well, I mean, there's a reason why low carb and keto got so popular is because once you identify what a carb is, it's very easy to avoid carbs, especially, you know, to a significant extent.

It's not easy to avoid fat at all because everything is cooked in fat and it's invisible. Right. You can't see the fat. You can see the bun on your burger. Right. You can go to the restaurant and instead of potatoes, you can get a side of fruit or a salad. Right. It's just easy to do that. And so, yeah, you have a very good point, both from just the ease of adherence to it because your brain goes, I just don't eat that if it's a carb. Right.

With the Ray Peet, people are always arguing about do you need to do this much protein, little protein, high protein, middle? It's very complicated. And nerds will do that. And nerds will have fun with that and they'll have their wars. But scaling it up to a mass revolution like what Ray Peet wants, I don't know if it's

I think people, maybe in a few generations, you know what I mean? Like if you can start raising up Ray Petey kids and then they keep having kids and then, you know what I mean? You can get that passed down and start making that the mainstay. But right now I think like,

Like, it's actually, I don't know. I'm not trying to make a declarative statement here. I don't want to be a heretic of any community, but I just think maybe when you're trying to mitigate your losses, so to speak, right? You know what I'm saying? You're trying to stave off. You've got a bunch of sad, sick people, 50s and 60s,

And then you talk to people like Chris Palmer, Harvard psychiatrist, doing ketogenic diet, and what's it doing? It's getting rid of the schizophrenia. It's getting rid of depression. It's getting rid of bipolar. You talk to my friend, Dr. Thomas Seyfried. He's at Boston College. He's stopping glioblastoma cancers by stopping and getting people into a ketogenic state. And it's like I don't see that kind of intuitive, easy entry point into real healing effects.

with the bioenergetic world. And I know it's a much more kind of new and it's got time. It needs to grow and develop. And I want to be a part of helping that. But I just wonder if, see, if you're a little smarter about it, that's the Maha kind of big picture view. Do we need to accommodate a two-step approach where, uh,

for the masses who have got decades. If you've got an 18-year-old kid that's young enough, you can get them on the repeat fundamentals and run them healthily through that. But you talk about people who have been poisoned for decades, and you're trying to get them to run sugar at that level and then try to, like you said...

What were these green beans cooked with? Was this poured with canola oil or butter? How does the average person even have the chance of knowing? Well, so that's like you're right there where it's the culture has to shift enough because what you're basically banking on is the average person has to have some semblance of knowledge.

vague understanding, right? It has to have the mimetic power where the average person has to have an opinion on the, on the food itself. So for however many years it was, uh, Oh, you know, cholesterol give you a heart attack kind of a thing, right? Yeah.

And so and then at a certain point, now we're seeing this popularity of that, you know, that we want to call the paleo ish, low carb ish perspective. And now enough people, if you start talking to them, they already there's a resonance because they're like, oh, I've heard that before.

What's that saying? You tell a lie and it goes all the way around the world. It's the network effect. Yeah. And at that point, that's why memetics are so powerful is if you just repeat something enough times, everyone just believes it and understands it. And then you can build-

on top of that so it will take a very long time to shift things in a different perspective with the repeat thing and you know there's a reason why whenever i recommend it to someone that i would consider more of a quote-unquote normie i'm not trying to be the thing is repeat as as like a concept and as a person like it's not like easily accessible and

You know, you can't just like, oh, what's the repeat? It's like, no, no, no. You have to read a bunch of his books and then you kind of have to like absorb information on all of his articles and other people's podcasts that talked about him versus like a simple diet. Like, what's the diet? And so what you're really banking on. And so what I always do is I always tell people to get Kate Dearing's book. Yeah.

Yeah. You familiar with her? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So she wrote the book. Yeah. She wrote the book, how to heal your metabolism. I, I, I just recommend that book to people all the time. I said, don't worry about it. Just read this book. And it's much simpler. It's much, much simpler, but you know, you're, you're very right though, that weight loss is a very important part of this. And so some people can go from the low carb weight loss and then

into a more balanced diet and not regain the weight. But so many do regain the weight. Like I, a close family friend of mine lost 60 pounds on keto and then just gained it all back. Right.

Just all of it back. And so what, you know, you say like, does that work? Well, it worked for a time, but did it actually work if the results aren't sustainable and after the fact, they're worse off than they were before? That's why I want the best, smartest minds who understand the paleo. That's why I'm talking to you. You know, you're one of those guys, right? So we got these best, smartest minds who've done years of work in the paleo, low-carb carnivore world.

and are open-minded and then the, and that have also done the bioenergetics stuff and they know both backwards and forwards and then can synthesize something that's actually coherent, right? That translates between the worlds because I've been doing, I've done bioenergetic stuff for three years and I've gained weight. You know, I haven't, people can watch the videos of me talking about keto and carnivore back and I looked a lot thinner than I do now talking about Ray P. I don't ever, I've never recommended to my audience

Just to be clear, because I know the hypocrisy that would look like, I've never recommended them to me directly. I've never directly recommended that they do this approach to lose weight because it hasn't worked for me. I've brought on people who talk about it working for them and their weight loss issue, or I've brought on people that talk about it, and I've talked about it in other areas of having energy or mental health and all those other benefits that you can see, but

It has been, you know, in terms of three years of trying, Ray Peet's direct recommendations to me and every other person's been on it. It is not, as someone who has spent years working in the keto carnivore world, it's night and day difference. Like when I did the keto and carnivore thing, if I had stayed on that for the last three years dogmatically, I'd look like a fraction of what I look like now. Right.

And I'd have energy in a different way, and I'd have stress probably from all of that. So...

Okay. So let me ask you this. Let me ask you this. Have, uh, I know you had an anabolic on your podcast. Did you try the honey diet in any way? Yeah, I've tried it and it's interesting. It's, it's a little harder to do. I think that diet, I mean, it's a little, it's just, it's, it's harder and I haven't given it a month of time to do it. But one of the reasons why is it's hard to do for working people, self-employed people who are on the go running because they're

You have to kind of like get in a lot. And maybe you've got a lot more variants. You can explain different versions of it that work. But it's like you've got to get so much sugar in before 12.

And some people are just fasting in the morning because they're doing, they're doing, you know, they're doing something else. So this is like, it just gets complicated. Low carb is, you know what to do. You cut it down. I'm very excited about this for a reason, because I think there's so much ability here to, to make this work for so many people. And I, not only do I think it's actually very easily implemented and,

I think it both has a lot of convenience to it, which is going to help with adherence. And it has leeway in what I would say is like when you cheat, it's less detrimental than something like keto. And so you have a lot more flexibility here. And so are you suggesting that perhaps the honey diet is one of those

uh, big tent, uh, kind of opening that will bridge the gap between. Yes. I really do think that this is going to change things. And, uh, if, if you're on YouTube, this is blowing up like crazy. And so I've been, I've been just putting out continuous content about it. One, because I find it so interesting. And two, like people are, are getting crazy results on this and they're, they're, they're eating it up, so to speak of like wanting more of this. So, uh,

I really think and what's been interesting is you're seeing this colliding of worlds that I feel like have never really collided before. And so what you're seeing online right now, especially in the YouTube world, is you're seeing like Ray Peet has already had an influence on the community as opening up to sugar.

None of this would be able to happen right now if it weren't for Ray Pete and the followers of Ray Pete, because we are, we're not there yet, but we've already made incredible strides in, for lack of a better word, normalizing sugar. Demystifying it, you know, taking it down a notch. And, and, and so because of that, then you have, um, uh, if you know, Cole Robinson, he's,

So Cole Robinson became like well-known because he had the snake diet. Okay. Which was like extreme fasting. Oh, is that the one that talks about drinking a lot of, he does a lot of electrolytes and stuff? Yeah. Yeah. He has like a snake juice thing and he yells at you and calls you fat and tells you to stop being fat. And he had done that for years and years and years and years from a fasting low carb keto perspective. And sometime in the last year or two, he kind of like totally flipped and

And was like, we're going to do it all with sugar. And I think it really aligned with with the popular of the honey diet. You know, I don't know if he was inspired by it or he saw it. It's basically the it's, you know, he calls it the sugar diet. It's the exact same thing. It's the exact same diet in like every conceivable way.

But because of his reach of out of this, like, you know, the more esoteric repeat world, it's just weight loss. And he's reaching a lot more of the general population. And then what you're doing is you're getting durian rider and the freely, the banana girl and the high carb vegan side. And all these different approaches are just kind of like have all collided and something like truly magical is happening right now.

And I think this is going to drastically just like vault forward the nutrition world, the weight loss. And once because all of this, you know, I think it's a little bit about that to go off, but tell people a little bit about the fundamentals about what makes it so flexible, how you interpret this honey diet.

Um, I was just going back. I had anabolic on it. What is it? A couple of years ago now? I don't know. You had him on last year. Yeah. Last year. Okay. And he talked about it and that was, it had not taken off yet. He was just kind of thinking about it. I guess he had been doing it himself. And, uh,

And now it's getting a bigger it's getting more exposure now. But and I just remember his original thing saying you got to eat a lot of sugar, you know, fruits and honey by about 12 or two o'clock and then like fast it all off right till like six or seven and then like eat a big dinner that's kind of lean keto kind of right like like a pound of meat or two pounds of meat.

So I want to I want to give I want to give Anabology a lot of credit here. You know, he's a friend of mine and he put things in a perspective that really made things click for me.

And I kind of want to say like how I've kind of used what he did and it sort of brought me back to some stuff that I had done previously. And then with kind of consuming a lot of this other content, you know, this is the kind of way that I really think it's ideally done. And so both this honey diet and sugar diet thing, just, you know, to not confuse people because I want people to be able to walk away from this and like have some actionable steps and,

The basics of it is you're living off of fruit and sugar. On a day-to-day basis, from when you wake up to the rest of the day, you want your body to consume fructose specifically, right? When you eat sugar, your body's getting fructose and glucose in a 50-50 split. So there's a reason why it's done with fruit and sugar and juice and honey maple syrup and not starch because starch is just glucose.

This is going to increase the rate of your metabolism while causing fat loss, as opposed to a low carb approach where you will lose fat, but your metabolism will slow down along with it. You are stimulating your body. You're increasing the metabolic rate by continually eating fruit and juice and sugar all day long. So you are accomplishing the specific goal.

how would I say this? You are, you don't eat protein. You don't eat fat. You don't eat starch. You eat fruit and sugars. Then for dinner, you have a very lean protein source and you can have like non-starchy vegetables. You know, you can have zucchinis and some cooked greens and stuff like that. Like a low fat, low carb diet for low fat, low carb diet for dinner, but you can still consume carbs from the fruit if you'd like. And this is where I think like,

At dinner time? Are you saying after or? Yeah, well, you know, you can have it at dinner if it goes along with your meal or afterwards. And this is where it's like, you know, taking the inspiration from from anabolic and really running with it. And this is what I have been doing. This is what Cole Robinson has been doing. This is what Mark Bell has been doing. And he got it from Cole.

Mark Bell has been a very large influencer for a very long time. He's a champion power lifter. He was in documentary Bigger, Stronger, Faster about steroids. And a lot of people really, they like Mark and they trust him. And he's sort of just- He comes from the paleo world too, right? Or he did that, right? He was like a low carb, you know, he had a whole thing about the war on carbs. So he comes from a more keto, paleo, low carb carnivore perspective.

Um, where I, where I think this really like takes off is you recognize the importance of fruit and sugar as a mainstay of your diet. And so if your, um, dinner is a lean protein and low in fat and low in starch, you're probably going to have a better time. I've noticed I sleep much better if I continue to eat, if I at least have fruit after my dinner.

And so what I have found is that, and this is where I think like, because, you know, ex-fat loss, I've been talking to him and I'm trying to help him figure out how to lose the weight. And I think this might work a lot for you because I had experienced juice fasting a long time ago, like over a decade ago and lost-

I did that too over a decade. Yeah. And these things come around at the same time, don't they? Did you lose a bunch of weight and then gain it all back? Is that what happened? Yeah. It's like I did the juice fast thing for 10 days at a time and all that. Yeah. So what's, what's important here is if you like, this is where, if you understand the rate Pete thing, great, this will give you more power. And if you don't just trying to get people to understand that, that sugar stimulates the metabolism more than anything else does.

And so when I did the juice cleanse, what about coconut? What about coconut oil or MCT oil while you're on keto? Would that not stimulate their metabolism? So anabolic is right now experimenting with MCT oil. And so, you know, again, I want to be able to like give people like just the, the, the,

The actionable steps and just here's the advice. Don't worry about the specifics while also, you know, giving it some grounding so people understand what's going on. Fructose and MCTs are both metabolized directly by the liver before it touches the rest of the body. Whereas everything else you eat circulates through the whole body and your body releases a hormone when it sees an overabundance of

of calories in the liver. And this actually protects from fatty liver. And it increases the metabolic rate, which will help drive fat loss. And it is tied to longevity and various other positive health metrics. And so the problem with the juice cleanse is that they say you're supposed to do, again, sugar is demonized in like every single nutritional sphere. They say you want low sugar

low sugar juices. So it's mostly green juice with like some apple and cucumber to give it a little bit of sweetness. So when you do a juice cleanse, you are in a severe, severe calorie restricted state. So on the flip side, it goes, pretend more like you are a fruitarian.

And you want the sugary fruits as much as you can. You actually can and should eat as much sugar and fruit as you possibly can. And what's going to happen here is you're going to lose the weight without having the metabolic detriment. Your metabolic rate is actually going to increase rather than decrease, which means if you ever go off the diet, if you ever just decide to stop it, or if you ever decide to cheat,

You're not doing it within the context of this broken, slow metabolism. You're doing it with a very revved up metabolism that can handle whatever it is that you're doing.

So I like to think about it like it leaves you better than you were before is the theory here. Yes. And that is the whole point to do it because every diet works at losing weight is the easiest thing to do in the world. It's the easiest thing to do in the world. The hardest thing to do is keep it off. Right. And then on the other thing that's very important and sort of ties to that is how do you feel while you're doing it?

And one of the reasons why I'm so high on this is because I literally feel high on this in the sense that unlike a keto carnivore where you're using your stress hormones, I have just bounds and bounds of energy by eating fruit and sugar all day. But let's talk about the mechanics of it because it's kind of how rigid is the formula in terms of the time and the order in which these things are done. There's a, there's a, there's a, for the audience's sake,

The classic that your friend Anabology, who we've had on the show, it's fruit and honey till like noon or so. And then you fast. You burn off that glycogen, right? That's what he's saying. So I am going to— And you do low-carb, low-fat. That's what I'm trying to get at. I am going to leave honey, Anabology's specifics because he broke it down. Eat that until three. Fast. Go to the gym. I think that's—

I don't think it's necessarily ideal, nor if it serves people to take it that way. So I'm going to instead describe it in the way that I think is going to cut through all the externalities and just get people the results.

And the way I want to think about it is you can have, you know, don't fast at all. There's no benefit to avoiding food, to intermittent fasting, to waiting until you eat, to just eat as much fruit and sugar as you want during the day. Okay, so let's stop that for a second, just to reiterate. So you're not trying to differ with that, but you're just saying...

You're saying that the results of this diet are not predicated on having that fasting window in the day. Yeah, I'm just, I'm completely ignoring that concept altogether. That's not required for this to work, so to speak. No, not at all.

Because, again, in order for you to align with your metabolism, you have to eat when you're hungry. Yeah. See, that was the problem that I had. I'm going to tell you, when I tried that honey thing, you'd eat until 12 or 2, and then I'd be working and working, go to the gym, all this stuff. And it's coming around 6 o'clock, 7 o'clock, and I'm really starting to feel that, like, good God.

This has been too long. I mean, I'm a six foot five man, you know, you know, not supposed to be some of these guys doing this. Look, I'm not trying to be me, but you know, if you're, if you're a five foot two girl, man, I mean, that's a different machine here, you know, but when you're doing the high intellectual stuff I'm doing and physicality and throwing people off the top rope, that's a lot to be, you know, taking that kind of a big guy and running them through a fasting period. And you're running off of the fumes of some kind of, you know,

Marshmallow, for God's sake. Yeah. So, you know, just trying to say, you know, so absolutely, absolutely. And so, you know, this is why, again, it's like I give anabolic a lot of credit for kind of bringing me bringing me to this. And then but, you know, it's like I I

I always want to give my advice from what works for me and what I actually believe is the, what are the proper take-homes? Like what is moving the needle here? And so the way I like to describe it is I want to kind of, I like to give people like, here's a tool. This is an object and I want you to take this object and hold it. And this is something that you can have. And then here's another one. And this is another one. And then I want you to know that you can use these differently. And

And so it simplifies the concepts versus trying to explain all the intricacies of the mechanisms. So because I know how effective a juice fast, juice cleanse is, I want to give people the day of a, a, a sugar day,

a sugar fast, a fruit fast. So take an entire day and from the entire day, all you consume all day long without anything else is fruit and sugar. You don't need any protein, you don't need any fat, you don't need any starch. This is your number one tool.

To to do this right to lose weight and to increase your metabolism to increase your insulin sensitivity. And we're going to you know, this this is what we're targeting here. It's a pure fruit diet. That's that's a certain type of day. I want people to think this is my tool on any given day. I can eat a pure fruit and sugar diet.

Pause for a second. A lot of people, even within the Ray Peet community, would say, be careful about chugging orange juice. It's going to spike your insulin super high if you're overweight. Is that something you have to be aware of? Like, okay, you're saying eat fruit and sugar all day. Do you need to be pacing yourself as you consume it to dribble it in? Is that a factor? So this is the reason why we want the fruit and sugar and not the starch is because it's

because fructose doesn't need insulin. Fructose can go straight to the metabolite. Glucose needs insulin.

And that's why, you know, but of course, fruit and sugar are a mix of fructose and glucose. But don't they say that orange juice spikes your insulin or whatever? You know, I've heard that, you know, you hear that a trope all the time. Sure. But but but again, this is how this is how stupid the general nutrition sphere is, is that white rice spikes your sugar far more than table show than I'm sorry, spikes your insulin way more than table sugar does.

So just for, excuse my ignorance, but if there is no sugar, if there is no insulin response, then why is it spiking your blood sugar? Well, no, so sugar is fructose and glucose. So the fructose part of it

doesn't trigger the insulin response, but the glucose part does. So the reason why we want to pick sugary foods is because they are fructose and glucose. There really is no like pure fructose food. Like agave syrup is like the closest thing.

But your body also does need some glucose to it. I see what you're saying. So there's glucose still in orange juice and those other things. Yeah. And so, you know, most people, your body will trigger an aversion if you eat too much sweetness. And so that's why I say, like, don't do anything crazy. Just have as much as you'd like.

Just think that I can, I can eat all the food in the world I want, but the only food that exists is fruit, sugar, maple syrup, and honey. Now, so I can have an apology. I think he says he's in his original blueprint that I read. And I'm sure, again, I'm just going based. My audience has only encountered this a few times, the honey and an apology. Um,

I think he avoided table sugar, white sugar. Is that something that should be considered on this? Well, I know that his kind of like prototypical diet was a pound of honey and half a pound of dates during his sugar window. And I just, again, it's like I'm inspired by

uh, by his framework, but that's just not how I approach it or do it. Whatever sugar is. Yeah. And so like, you can have a bowl of fruit with any fruits that you'd like and you can drizzle honey over it. You can drizzle maple syrup over it. You can pour sugar over it. Just do what sounds appetizing to you.

Pick your fruit selection. You can have watermelons. You can have oranges. You can have, again, whatever sounds good. But just listen to your body. Like if you eat too many apples, it might like get your digestion kind of screwed up. You know, too much of this, too much of that. It's not like any of these certain nutrients or the foods are bad. You're just following the craving of enjoy yourself. So you're not in your advice, you're not telling people to avoid the starchy fruits like apples and bananas? Or you are?

I mean, again, it's like, you know, part of it is you have to experiment with it because for some people they can eat, you know, they can do the during right of 30 bananas a day and lose weight. No problem. And for some people, bananas or anabolic said, and again, this is like why there's such a difference is anabolic found that too many dates slowed the fat loss because dates have starch in them. There is like a starchier fruit.

But I think there's a big difference between if you do a pure fruit sugar day versus you eat the protein at night as well. And so, again, it's like, you know, dates have a pretty good feedback mechanism because they're so like you can only eat so many dates. And yeah, so that's why I say, like, just get out of your head. Stop thinking you need to do something. And all you like. And again, this is the most simple thing you could possibly imagine. You can have as much fruit as you want.

If you're hungry, eat fruit. You can have fruit, you can have fruit juice. You can have table sugar, you can have maple syrup, you can have honey. Those are your options.

Basically have at it. The chance that someone is able to screw something up with those confines is like very, very limited. What about like gelatin and coffee? Is that a factor for you or do you think that does it? I think that some people could be fine with coffee, but because coffee does stimulate the metabolic rate, I think it can drive hunger too much. And it's not that I think that they would then eat too much fruit. It's that I think they might be more likely to cheat on the diet.

Because I know I've been experiencing... Because fruit is not very satisfying. I mean, that's the catch of this diet. Well, you know, it's... I'm like, I mean, think about it. Let's be real. The average young man, because I'm working with you and I'm just kind of giving you feedback. You know, the average young man in America would probably rather have a fatty ribeye and some, you know, sunny side eggs and a couple pieces of bacon or some nice, big, robust breakfast to get them going than, you know, a bunch of fruit with honey on it. But everyone likes fruit. Right.

Everyone likes fruit, but you know, it's like, you know, so that's the idea is that, you know, if it's enjoyable on its own because it's sweet and if you eat enough of it, it actually keeps your cravings at bay pretty well. You know, I've always, I've kind of come to this idea where it's like for some time, if I have just a jug of water and a pile of sugar and a pile of salt, you'd be amazed at the cravings you can keep at bay with just that.

A lot of times, all you needed was just a little bit of sugar and some water and your cravings are gone. A lot of times, all you need was a little bit of salt and your cravings are gone. Now, that's obviously not a diet. There's no nutrition there.

But you, is that another thing that people should think about as supplementing salt while they're eating their fruit part of part of the day? Yes. If, if you ever crave, uh, if you ever feel like you're really craving, uh, starchy foods, that's a really good sign because our body associates starch with salt. Okay. So I, I usually have a little, like a spoonful of salt that I throw in my mouth, like first thing in the morning that I chugged down with some orange juice. Um, and you know, you can, you can sprinkle salt on your fruit. You can sprinkle it in your juice. Um,

Um, but the, the, the important part is that you're avoiding all proteins, all fats, all starches. And so again, like I'm not touching any vegetables, no mushrooms, no carrot salad. You can, you can have, no, no, you can have vegetables that, you know, they're non, they're non starchy. Right. So like, yeah, I think like dinner time is a, is a good way to good time to have vegetables, especially if you want something warmer, you can cook them. Just make sure that you don't use it. Why, why is it a, why, why do you think dinner time is good to eat vegetables?

Well, I mean, again, like I on a recent of my own podcast, I just did the way that I've often thought about nutrition is think of everything in regards to performance and workout nutrition. What do you eat and when timing is very important? Do you want to eat like a giant pile of vegetables before you're going to go work out? Or would you rather just have some fruit?

What is digesting quicker? What is triggering? What is kind of giving your body this like energetic signal? Okay. And that's why it's like sugar gets you through your day and then you kind of more nourish your body at night. And if you're not eating protein, then it might help more to get more nourishment, more minerals, and maybe some warmth and salt from, from cooked veggies. So you can have cooked veggies. You can have, you can have veggies as well, but just like the driver of,

of the diet and of the metabolism has to be fruit and sugars. Would you recommend for folks that they stay away from liquid sugar because of the tendency to kind of over consume? No, absolutely not. Absolutely not. You can drink as much fruit as you'd like. So what if you're getting thousands of extra calories than you thought because you're kind of, you know, you're drinking. Well, again, we're not trying to run through all the variables here. Yeah. So we're not restricting calories at all. Your body is going to give you your feedback. Today, I've already had, this is a

a bottle of apple juice and this is a bottle of pomegranate juice. I've already drank, you know, a hundred ounces of juice already today. And so again, the point is fully unrestricted fruit, juice and sugars.

And then non-starchy veggies are fine to have. Again, this is a reason why I'm trying to frame this as a tool. This is a certain type of day. This is not your life. There's a day. This day is effectively a day of veganism. It's not a raw thing, but it's like you're basically living off of fruit because you want the sugar, you want the caloric content because

because you need to stimulate your metabolism. And if you avoid everything else, you'll lose weight very quickly. So this is like, again, the most powerful of the days. This will be the fastest fat loss. And for the people who are the most overweight, probably can do the most of these days continuously. The second type of day is the traditional more anabolic day. Without the fasting, it is sugar all day long, lean protein at night.

Okay, so you're saying do a day without any protein and then do another day. Yeah, again, I want people to think they have a toolbox. I want them to think of them basically having a variety of days. And to simplify it, let's just call it three types of days. You have the pure vegan, high sugar, high fruit day, and you can have veggies if you'd like them. Non-starchy, you have as much as you'd like for dinner.

The second type of day is the same type of early part where from the moment you wake up until dinner, you can have as much fruit, juice, and sugars as you'd like. But for dinner, you have lean meat and vegetables. And you can continue to have fruit along that if you'd like. You can have fruit with your dinner. You can have fruit after your dinner. The important thing is you don't eat any protein until dinner. And you make sure you continuously consume the sugary fruits all day long.

Do you think milk is an important factor in this type? No. Unless you're doing skim milk, the importance is really, really heavily predicated on you avoiding – you're keeping the fat as low as possible. And there's another reason –

um, to have the pure carb, the, like the vegan, pure sugar, pure fruit day, pure, pure fruit days is because by doing that, you avoid any trace amount of fat whatsoever. You basically guarantee, you know, aside from like a half of gram of fat in bananas, you're getting like effectively zero fat an entire day. Any protein is going to have some trace fat in it.

And not only that, but protein is also going to cause a little bit of insulin resistance. So the fat loss is much faster without the protein. But if you go too long without protein, your body will lose muscle. But people would be astonished at how much they could avoid protein and not lose it for days at a time. So I regularly won't eat any protein for two, three days at a time. And then I will have a very lean protein for dinner, like a big pile of shrimp.

Um, when you're, when you're losing weight or I'm sorry, when you're not trying to gain weight and gain muscle, your body needs a lot less protein. So as long as you're getting what, you know, the, the general recommendation is half of your lean body mass and grams. So if you're a 200 pound man and you're 20% body fat, that is only, um, what, 90, 90,

No, 80 grams of fat. It's only 80. I'm sorry. It's only 80 grams of protein per day that you need to not lose muscle. And there's a study that they did actually just within this year. So only in the last six months where they protein restricted healthy young men to

To that amount to half their lean body mass, roughly. And they lost zero lean body mass over like a span of five weeks. And so if you go two, three days without any protein and then have 80 to 100 to 120 grams of protein, like you're not going to lose muscle because your body's not being totally deprived of it. It's just not a steady stream of it.

So a typical day for me on that type of day is I'll have fruit, I'll have juice, I'll have my sugars during the day. And then for dinner, I tend to choose seafood because it's so lean.

And it's very high in mineral content. And I really kind of crave that, you know, there's the salinity to it. There's the, there's the copper in them. There's a selenium in them. And I'll have that with like maybe a side of fruit and vegetables. So like, but you're still avoiding, you're still avoiding fat like the plague there. I'm still avoiding fat like the plague. And I, what I have found is if you eat starch, like let's say you already eat white rice. I have found that the weight loss stalls on the starch.

Though usually you can maintain your weight on the starch. So just again, I'm trying to make this as simple for people as possible. I want people to walk away from this like they have two tools and three different types of days. Anything that's not one of these two tools is an off day.

A day that you want to eat starch with your dinner, it could be okay. But what you want to think is like that is an off day and you go right back to it the following day. If you travel for work and you're going to a convention and for three days you eat a bunch of crap, fine. The next day you come right back fruit diet. Just come right back on it.

So I want people to realize how important and how powerful these days are and how important all you just have is the pure carb day and the pure carb with lean protein for dinner.

You never eat protein during the day. You can have it for dinner. Now, I have felt, and maybe I did it wrong, but I have felt when I've tried to do like zero fat days that you don't feel good going to sleep sometimes. You're probably not eating enough. A lot of bioenergetic guys have told me it's important not to go too low fat for too long because

For men, we need those cholesterol-based, you know, well, so I had a video about this, about like potential pitfalls and of nutrient deficiencies. Keep this all in mind. If you are someone who is going to follow this diet very, very strictly for five, six days a week, where you have a balance of your pure fruit sugary days, and then you have your days where you eat all the fruit until dinner and you have a lean protein, you're

If you have one day a week where you eat a ribeye and some eggs for dinner, like you're going to be getting in plenty of fat and cholesterol. And another reason why I'm really big on shrimp is shrimp has like zero fat, but it's very high in cholesterol. And again, it's like this isn't a lifestyle. This is a weight loss protocol. And for the people who are more overweight,

who have 50, 100 pounds plus to lose, you can go much, much further on this than someone who is already, you know, they're only like 20% body fat and they just want to like lean up. They want to go further in terms of like longer staying on it or something without harm. Well, yeah, just say your body is going to be a lot more resilient to it because you already have

all this weight of, of stores of fat on your body. And you also have much faster rates of fat loss. Like people lose a pound of fat a day if they weigh like 250, 300 plus pounds. Whereas someone who is already like on a, on a moderate weight or like, you know, just not as, as lean as they'd like to be, they might be more like, you know, two pounds, one or two, one to three pounds a week kind of a thing.

So there's a lot of variety in the type of person that you are and how far you can push it. I just like people to know that a pure fruit day is an incredible tool to just like throw whenever you need it to kind of kickstart weight loss. And you can do it for two, three days at a time. So how many grams of fat, uh, like what's the threat, you know, how, when you're doing low carb keto, you got to get like 20 or 30 carbs a day. And then you're kind of

you're kind of getting where you need to be ketosis wise. Like, is there any, is there any gram variance for the average day with fat? Right. So on the pure, on the pure fruit sugar day, you're effectively getting like zero fat besides whatever trace fat is in fruits, which is practically non-existent.

And, again, it's like you want to frame – you want to do this so you don't have to track your food. And don't – like, again, it's eat all the fruit you want. Like if you notice that you feel cold, you're not eating enough. If you notice that you're having trouble sleeping, you're not eating enough. You need to eat more fruit. You need to get in more sugars. On the days that you eat protein, pick as like basically don't eat anything that's fattier than chicken breast.

Like try to keep it like that low. Like, so that on, for the entire, it doesn't matter how much protein you're eating. Like you said, I guess it's depend on your weight again, but yeah, again, like protein at dinner. Yeah. You probably don't need to eat more than a pound of your protein type food, a pound of chicken breast, a pound of, of a lean meat, like a,

Like, you know, you can get like a 96-4 ground meat. You can get venison, which is super lean. But again, the leaner you eat it, the better. You're just like, again, we're going for like effectiveness and rate of fat loss. And because we're keeping the fruit and sugar so high, your metabolism won't slow down. That's like, that's really the play here.

So I like a lot of seafood because it's very, very lean and you can cook it without any oils. You can do chicken breast. You can do 99-1 ground turkey.

I probably wouldn't eat above 10 to 20 grams of fat on those days. I try to keep it as low as possible on the, on the protein days, on the protein days. And then again, you know, coconut oil is not a magic variable that gets out of, you know, the fat. Yeah. Coconut oil may or may not work within this, but I'm just, I'm ignoring it as a, as a concept. Anabology is experimenting with MCT oil. Um, I just don't really think it's, it's necessary for this. Yeah. Um,

You know, I still think it's a healthy food and in generally pro metabolic. But what did you say the third day was? Was that when you eat a little bit of fat? Yeah. Well, the third day is basically like it's it ranges anything from a super basically an identical day where you have a lean protein, but you eat like like white rice with dinner.

It could be a day where you if you want to have like a fatty steak, just take all the carbs out of the dinner. If you want to eat a ribeye and steak and eggs for dinner one night with with some non starchy veggies, don't eat any fruit with the dinner. Don't drink any juice with the dinner. Don't eat any starch with the dinner.

that's how you're going to like limit any potential fat gain from that meal. And then, you know, basically from then on, it's like, look, life happens. That's why I think this is so incredible because I can, if I eat, if I know I'm going to go out, like tonight I'm going to go have sushi with some buddies. We're going to go to the gym. We're going to work out and we're going to have all you can eat sushi. So one on the bright side, one of the reasons why I tend to pick sushi is because if you avoid like salmon, most of the proteins are very lean protein.

And the white rice is going to basically really kind of give me a little boost performance wise. And it's just going to stall my weight loss for like a day. And then what am I going to eat tomorrow? I'm going to go back to eating like a low starch, high sugar, low fat day. But, you know, maybe you're going out and you're going out for pizza and beer with your buddies.

And go do that. Go do like enjoy yourself. If you eat the fruit and sugar during the day, your metabolic rate is higher. You're going to gain less fat from the pizza and beer at dinner. And then the next day, go back to fruit. If you're ever going to go out, have all you can eat feast, go out and just have a fruit day. The next day, you'll basically like nullify any of the negative effects. It's so powerful to use this tool. And I think that what we'll see is

you know uh i have no idea if this is going to be like just the answer to everything right chances are no but it might be a very very useful thing that a lot of people are trying now

And a lot of people in the repeat community, you know, because there's all this like balance to it. And I think that's very healthy. But if you want weight loss, like use the tool, get the weight loss, and then you can go back. And if you use it in this bioenergetic pro metabolic perspective, you won't get all the usual suspects of the negative, the negative effects that you get when you lose weight of your metabolism slowing down. And that's what I think has really been discovered here.

Why do you think what's behind like the Kempner thing about doing rice to make people lose weight or these potato diets using starchy potatoes only to lose weight? So I fruit diet is the superior one in theory. So I think I just think this is faster and because of that more effective. So the potato diet basically requires that you eat nothing but potatoes. And so if you diverge from the diet, you're really not getting the results as much.

The Kempner diet, which for people that don't know, is effectively it's basically fruit, sugar and white rice. It's basically a 95 percent carbohydrate diet, small trace protein and fat in any of those foods.

But the thing is, is that is going to take a lot longer. And also the adherence is going to be much lower because people are going to be way less like I, you know, there's rumors that he had to like beat his, his patients to get them to like, you know, adhere to the diet.

What we want is we want you to not feel that negative effect. And we want to be able to give you the freedom and basically the ability to handle a divergence from the diet. And I think if you avoid the starch, and again, the starch can be a cheat day for you. But if you think of when I'm on my diet, I only eat fruit, juice, sugar, and

Lean protein, non-starchy veggies, and always the protein at dinner because we want to get a hormonal effect of avoiding protein. A big part of the increased fat loss is protein restriction. That's when I'm on my diet. I have those two days, pure carb day.

Pure carb with lean protein for dinner. You have two days. What do you mean by two days? Do you like to do them every other day? No, no, no. These are the two days in your arsenal. These are the two days in your arsenal. What if somebody just wants to do the other day all the time? It'll work. If you do the lean protein every night and your weight loss is fine,

Then great. But that's why anabolic put in the fasting period to try to account for that. Again, I'm just I'm totally I'm just totally ignoring his fasting thing. I'm not like acknowledging its existence in the way that I think about this just because I never have used it. And I always actually felt what one thing that I've I've seen is, you know, sometimes inevitably because I would go to the gym. You could be without food. The cravings that would kick in from the fasting would be so severe that people would overeat for dinner.

So, and that's why I'm trying to just get rid of all the, all the noise. You have two days in your arsenal. Of course, life happens. You can always do what you want on a given day there out in the world. You have two days in your arsenal, the pure carb day and the pure carb day with lean protein for dinner. No, um, both days during the whole daytime, no protein, no fat, no starch.

And on one of the days, then you can have lean protein for dinner. And that is, I just think, the simplest way to approach it. I know that ex-fat loss guy, he said that he was shocked at how expensive the fruit was on this. So let's steel man this some further, okay? So you've established a compelling picture of what you think can help people. Now, what about the working class factor? You've got to be able to scale it financially for the average person.

Who's not a tech pro living in San Francisco with a startup using money laundering to finance high, high six figure jobs. Not that that's you. I'm just saying in general, there's a lot of these people that, you know, they're doing all these fancy diets, but they can afford it. I would be, I would be, I would be astonished if someone was spending more food, sorry, more money eating nothing but fruit in a day than they were on what they're currently eating.

You know, you don't have to get organic if you can't afford it. There are cheaper juices from the store. You know, you don't have to buy like the fresh squeezed, whatever you can get. Tropicana or whatever, just, you know, as long as your body tolerates, it's fine. It's no problem. There are a lot of cheaper options in terms of the fruits, in terms of the juices. What about those cheap juices that are not refrigerated?

Well, you know, well, well, so, well, some of the juices are actually expensive, like Lakewood. Those aren't refrigerated and, but they're pasteurized. Um, and again, it's going to be like, you have, if it works, it works because the sugar is there. So we know that's going to be, that's a big part of it. And the question is going to be, is the micro micronutrient profile of those juices going to be sufficient enough to sustain you? Um, again, I have a hard time imagining that someone is going to be spending more money doing this than on what they're

When they get a lot of fresh fruits, it gets expensive, especially if you do organic. I eat a good amount of frozen fruit, frozen mango, frozen pineapple, frozen berries, and

I get fresh fruit. I do the juices. Sometimes it's refrigerated, but it's pasteurized. And sometimes it's fresh squeezed. And it's kind of also just whatever you get your hands on. And also like sugar, just like table sugar is cheap as a cheap form of calories. So you can always kind of juice up if you're hungry. And let's say you have

let's say some, like you were stranded on an Island and someone gave you a bowl of fruit and this is all you can eat for the day. Well, what I'm going to, but they get, they gave you like a 55 gallon drum of, of, of table sugar. You're going to really liberally load up the table sugar to, to fluff up the sugar and the caloric content of that. But, you know, again, like a

All nutrition advice comes with caveats and every person has different resources and stuff available to them. But again, I have a hard time imagining someone is going to be spending more money on just eating fruit and juice and sugar than they would whether they get some meat and start a restaurant. Most people probably typically want to avoid the starchy fruits to make the success like bananas and that kind of thing and apples. Again, I don't think...

I think that...

that may be depending on the read because you know honestly depending on the region you live in in the in the area you live in people live in kind of i'm not trying to like you know poke holes i'm just thinking through this like a lot of people live in relative food deserts when it comes to fruit options it's like yeah so you can go to a local store and they've got apples you can find apples and bananas in a lot of like corner markets right but those are the ones you kind of want to avoid right oh i'm not saying that i'm you know some people say that like the um

they do better if they avoid them. Maybe even if it's just for digestion, not for like fat loss. Um, but, uh,

I think if you're avoiding the starch, like the actual starches, not starchy fruits, but starches, and you're, you know, especially if you're doing it on a no protein day, you could probably eat a lot more bananas and apples and not have any. That's why, like, you know, imagine telling people you can eat all the fruit you want, but nothing else. And then say, but you can't have that fruit and you can't have that fruit. You know, as long as it's not avocado, which has fat in it, you're right. You're just going for pure, pure sweet fruits.

I'm not going to tell someone to avoid bananas and apples. If they find that they can't lose weight doing that, then, you know, at that point, but I think, I think people really wouldn't have much of a struggle with that. But you can also like in pretty much any gas station or liquor store, you can find orange juice.

You can find tropical orange juice. I'm just trying to walk through this again. If, let's say, that the weight gain they have may be related to endotoxin, would the repeat argument play in that be careful about eating raw apples and bananas because that's going to feed them? What I have found is on a very high fruit intake, it is clearing out my intestine like nothing else.

Like as a diuretic or you mean like just like literally like, you know, I go to the bathroom a lot more than I used to. And I feel like my bloating is actually severely. I mean, my bloating has been has been decent for a while now, but like I feel much more empty than I than I used to when I do like pure fruit days. When you do pure fruit days. Yeah. Pure fruit.

But what about those little fruitarians you see that have those little bloated pot bellies and little skinny? Well, fruitarians are usually very skinny, but they're not usually pot belly. Usually the pop laid ones are like the raw vegans who are also eating like weird sprouted. They're getting like the chimp, the chimpanzee gut kind of. Yeah. Yeah. No, I mean, if you want to see an emaciated person with zero body fat and a flat stomach, like go look at like raw fruitarians.

Go look at Dirty and Rider. And they're not even fruity. They eat starch. Go look at Freely, the banana girl. These are people with very, very flat bellies with a very, very high carb, very high fruit, high starch diet. I just think you kind of need to be like,

uh, if you want to eat a lot more starch, get yourself lean first. And I think in that process, it'll kind of really help regulate your, your digestive system. Cause you know, I went to carnivore because I wanted to clear out, I wanted to alleviate my bloating and it works. But the problem is, is that then your body's sort of like, you get like the

like the wrath of Khan. It just sort of like, it comes back because you know, there's, you don't have a microbiome anymore to combat with. If you ever eat anything, a solid food, a fibrous food again, you'll run into big problems.

So do you, again, just to reiterate for folks who are interested in your ideas here, do you would avoid even gelatin and collagen? I'm thinking of the sacred cows with the bioenergetic space. Yeah, so I think that gelatin is likely fine.

in the sense that you can eat it when you're not supposed to eat protein because gelatin is very low in methionine and some other essential amino acids, which is what, um,

what you are basically avoiding when you restrict protein that increases the metabolic rate. So I don't think your metabolism will slow down if you have gelatin. Um, it might be best to have it on the days that you eat your lean protein for dinner. If you want like a warm soup, you can do bone broth with some, you know, you can do broth with chicken breast and some, some cooked veggies in there. Um, I actually eat like some like organic gummy bears, um,

that, um, uh, don't have any artificial colorings and, um, you know, have much more natural ingredients and they have gelatin in them. Um, and I seem to be able to lose weight, fine eating those. Is that your product? Joshua's cubs available now?

I actually, I'm not, I'm not even kidding. Like a few months ago, I was like, should I make gummy bears? Should I start a gummy bear company? And what about, uh, you know, Brad Marshall, have you heard of him? Yes. I'm a big fan of Brad Marshall. So he's got kind of something similar to this. It's the,

I don't know what the latest is. He's been doing some other stuff, but he called it the emergence diet or the glass noodle diet where you eat, but it's just all starches. Well, it's some sugar. And I said, why don't you just do it the Ray Peet way with the emphasis on sugar? I said, are you just a medic? You have to do it the starch way? And he's like, no, I really think that there's some evidence that the fructose stuff can be a little bit more effective.

if you're using most of that as your fuel source relative to starch. I've heard some people say that they find fructose to be way more lipogenic, more creating fat. And others, you know, I think like there's some variation, but there's also a lot of people. Is it genetic related? So I think there's a lot of factors. It could be genetic. It could be previous nutrition habits and previous diet experience.

But what I think, not enough people actually recognize what it is that they are recognizing. So when someone says that I tend to put on more fat when I have fruit and sugar than when I eat starch, are they also eating protein and starch and fat along with the sugar?

And when the person says that I feel, you know, on the flip side, it's the same thing. Are you actually controlling for that variable by itself? So look, if someone wanted to experiment with something different, again, like I don't, I'm not saying you have to follow my thing or you just do nothing. Imagine a day where you just ate starch, go on a pure starch diet. See, people have success on the potato diet. Now, I just think that the potato diet is working more prominently through the potatoes being so filling, right?

that you're satiating yourself and you have fewer calories. And so this is something that anabolic did kind of, I don't know if I'd say he came up with it, but he brought it to my attention. I've never heard anyone else talk about this. But on my podcast with him, we talked about this, where you kind of have two sides of this metabolic spectrum. You have fructose and MCT oil, and you have starch and stearic acid, right? So Brad Marshall is the starch and stearic acid side.

The fructose and MCT oil side is actually making you hungry. It continues this hunger sensation because it's stimulating your metabolism. So you lose weight by upregulating the metabolism. Whereas it seems like the stearic acid and the starch side

have you lose weight by increasing satiety. And so if you are eating a more well balanced diet, then those foods might help, uh, have you eat less on the whole. And in a sense, they're both pro metabolic, but there's the, um,

the hunger driven pro metabolic and the satiety driven pro metabolic. And I'm sure anabolic either already knows or will come out with more information on it about the, um, the, the nuances of what metabolically is happening. And again, I think all of the, I, what I would love people to do is experiment, but for the people who they need the most help, try to follow something else that someone's giving you and then try to get somewhere before you, like, I mean, I can experiment with all kinds of things cause I sort of feel like I know what I'm doing, but,

And so when I first started this, I actually was experimenting with a lot more starch. So on my pure carb days, I would eat fruit all day and then I'd have a giant bowl of white rice for dinner or a giant bowl of pasta. And I wouldn't add any oil, wouldn't add any fats. And what I found is that I felt good, but my fat loss was very, very slow. And of course, I was also like,

You know, some weeks I'm a lot stricter and I don't have like a single day, which is like considered like a cheat day. So for me personally, I go, man, like for instance, I have lost like five pounds in the last like three days. And, you know, some of it's water weight, but it's just because I've been way stricter and I've eaten nothing on two of those days. I eat nothing but fruit juice and sugar. And on one of those days for dinner, I had shrimp and a big pile of grilled vegetables.

And then all of a sudden, just like, boom, dropped a bunch of weight suddenly. And of course, like, you know, oh, you can only lose so much fat, but your body tends to hold water more when it's not losing fat. You know, your body's grilling things without using oil again. I'm not. Yeah, I just have like this pan, which has water in it. Oh, no, no, no. This pan just has holes in it. And I put it over an open flame. OK, so it kind of like chars them up a little bit and heats them up.

What would be the working class, the guy who works at General Motors equivalent of that? I'm sure he knows how to do a flame if he knows how to do a flame. Yeah. So, well, for the protein, you know, if you're thinking of something like cheap, readily available, convenient, no preparation. Yeah, to cook without. Canned tuna, low-fat tuna. Yeah.

I'm trying to think of how to prepare zero-fat protein meals for the working-class families that would be like air fryers and stuff. An air fryer is more expensive than just cooking something over an open flame.

So, I mean, when I, when I say I'm, I'm kind of balancing the income and the American, you know, working class, I work two jobs. Yeah, sure. Yeah. Yeah. And that's why most people are. So you can get, you can get like pre-cooked shrimp at grocery stores. If you don't want to cook shrimp, shrimp has like no fat in it. You can get canned tuna. You can get deli meat, sliced turkey breast. It can have like little to no fat in it. You can, yeah.

You can have canned chicken. I don't, I've really never eaten much of that. So I don't know how low in fat is it is, but I assume you can get boneless skinless chicken breast.

How long do people need to avoid? Like, how long is it like safe to avoid fat when you're trying to lose weight? Do you think people should eat fat at least once a week? You know, some point it's not. Yeah. I mean, look, I think someone could very, very, again, your body has fat on it, right? Your body will be metabolizing its own fat. So I think someone who's, you know, pretty decently overweight could like,

go a month without eating like really any added fats to their diet. And again, if you eat chicken breast, if you eat some seafood, if you eat some really lean brown meat, like you're going to still get trace fat in there. Like it's, it's not like it's zero, but, um, you'd be surprised at how far along you can go. But at the same time, it's like, you know, if, if you just like one, not more than one day a week, eat something a little bit more

I mean, you know, you're not gonna run into any problems. But if you want to like, a lot of people really want to like be dedicated losing the weight and they go weeks,

being very strict and that's when they lose the weight the fastest. I know that Ray Peet was always recommending people not to burn fat. This is going to burn fat. Is that clear? Is this going to upregulate the glucuronidation process that he always talked about? For those who are not familiar, he wants people to excrete

The PUFA storage from their fat deposits through urination, right? Rather than-

So I think the way to do this, like the safest is to be like, really make sure that you're not restricting your sugar and carbohydrate at all. And that'll help sort of prevent that. I think, I think it was an abology or somebody was saying recently I saw on X, he stopped eating mango so much because they were causing a slowdown of the digestion, right? Yeah. Yeah. He was saying that they were causing, I don't know about constipation, but they were slowing his digestion. And he felt that the longer food sits in the stomach, the more it slows the metabolic rate.

Um, I, uh, there was a point when I was eating a lot of dried mango and I think dried fruit, I think people, it's just best to avoid dried fruit. If you're, if you're going to like eat candy, then a dried fruit is probably a good option. But like, I wouldn't get like the bulk of your calories from dried fruit. I felt that I felt that really like clogged me up a bit. I mean, there was times when I was eating like

almost 2000 calories a day of dried mango. So that's like excessive, but you know, I'll have, um, this bowl had, uh, dried mango in it and I was all the way filled to the brim. Um, so that's probably like three cups of frozen, I'm sorry, not dried mango, frozen mango. It's like three cups of it. And I digested it totally fine. So, yeah, I mean, like, I really think that, that this new kind of convergence of diets and especially in regards to fat loss is because it's

Fat loss is, I'm not saying fat loss is the most important thing, but it's treated as the most important thing. And because it often is the most important thing. And one of the best ways to get. But your body doesn't act like it's the most important thing because it always wants to burn. Crazy, right? Yeah. Yeah.

And there's a little bit of a mismatch between our physiology and our social, you know, our social. Well, again, I think a big part of that comes down to like what people's diets are like and what people's lifestyles are like, why that happens. Whereas a healthy person, person who's metabolically healthy doesn't hold fat on the body. And so I think we're just so screwed up. And so in a sense, what you're doing. Well, they hold fat to the extent of, I guess, winter, right? I mean, that would be the evolution of society.

For a healthy person. Yeah, sure. I mean, you know, I think, I think there are a lot of other, you know, some people say that your body holds fat to protect it from like toxins in your system, which honestly, I mean, I know we've been going for a while, but if we wanted to touch a little bit, yeah, I think this would be a good way to round this out.

I was about to say, we've got to give people something because we were going to talk about the Maha as a political movement, and we've talked more about the cultural and dietary. Yeah, no, I was thinking we were going to start more with Maha, but of course one thing led to the next. And so if they're still listening, I do want to cover the Maha stuff because I think... Yeah, give us a little nugget, and we'll do another show maybe down the road with a deeper analysis. I'll put Kennedy on here too, maybe. I've had Jay Bhattacharya on. It's so surreal, man, when like half of...

favorite podcast guests are now running. Like, oh, shit. How does this work? Have you had Kennedy on before? No, but I've talked to Kennedy in the past privately. I've had Jay Bhattacharya, who's now at NIH. The other one I won't mention until we make sure they're confirmed. So...

Well, you know, so I was... When you have the Wall Street Journal and these people come up to you and they're like, in an episode here, you know, your guest here said to them, oh God, now, you know, I just... I was actually going to bring that up. So I don't know if you want to talk about that or not. Yeah. Are you up for Senate confirmation? I don't want to get you in trouble. Me? No, no, no, no. But someone's up for confirmation. That was something I was going to talk about. So...

In regards to ma so if you didn't want it. Yeah. Oh, so, you know I think it'd be a really good idea for us to like Do a little like recap of what how we think maha is kind of going Yeah, so and you know your input as well And so it's like okay We've seen the ban on artificial dyes and that's already having changes like in and out I believe just announced that they changed the dye in there their pink lemonade or something to like a natural food dye and

And so that's a win right there. You know, like one of the reasons why I don't I avoid like the Haribo gummy bears is because they have the artificial colorings. But if you buy the the German ones, which you can get on Amazon or some some little markets, people like they carry international food. It doesn't have the artificial food dyes and doesn't have. I've seen that, too. Yeah. Yeah.

And so like, okay, we can talk. That's a win clear right there. And I think there's been a bunch of drama with the Casey means nomination. I'm actually curious to your thoughts on that because you've seen people who are really supportive of it. And you've seen a lot of people in the alternative health sphere, the, the anti jab sphere, Nicole Shanahan came out against it. And so there seems to be a lot of uproar about whether she's a lot, people feel that she's aligned with us or not.

And, you know, I've, I've only looked into it a little bit. And so it's curious because like, you know, I have been what I would say, like in the health and fitness world for like 15 years. And not only that, but like, you know, what I would consider more like, it's always like alternative. And so for someone to come up like her and her brother, I just never heard like for them to end up on Tucker Carlson. And I had never heard of them before. I'm just like,

Who is this? Like, how did they get here? And so I thought the same thing when they popped up on Tucker. I was like, who is and I love, you know, Tucker show and everything. And I saw him come on. I'm like, and they were speaking for seed oils. I'm like, I've never heard them speak about seed. I've never heard of it. You know, there's a lot of talking about seed oils. Never saw them.

And so, yeah, I'm very, you know, I'm not really making any claims one way or the other, but I'm like very curious. And I would, I mean, I'd say slightly suspicious about like who they are, where they come from, what their back, what their deal is, what their intentions are.

Um, and you know, uh, some people go a little over the top. It's like, oh, well you're connected to this person. It's like, if you've ever, you know, if you come from a good family, you will have met someone of certain status at some point. And then, you know, like people always do that thing like with Elon, where it's like, there's a picture with like, um, Epstein or not Epstein, um, Maxwell in the back. And it's like, okay, they were at a party together, you know? Yeah.

I'm not saying that like Elon is totally free from sin or anything, but it's just so I don't know. I don't want to accuse him of something, but I feel like that's current drama. And I don't really know much of what else has been happening that we could consider a win in the Maha era.

Maha sphere. What do you think? What do you think about like the FDA commissioner Macari? You know him you like him? I don't feel like I really know much about him. Yeah, or or I mean you've got I mean the one I know is Jay Bhattacharya and I I think he's got a good head on his shoulders a lot of people feel he wasn't as Radical, you know and condemning the shots Trump for what I hear tends to be

Still insistent on not wanting to acknowledge the reality of how yeah, you know, I mean that's Trump's personality, you know, there's even that that that clip from the movie about him The Apprentice

where he says, you never ever admit that you were wrong. And it's like, look, if he knows that he was wrong, for me, it's more important that we get the result we want than just I need to hear him say that. Some people are really big stickler for that. But if he knows and he's

I don't need him to say it. He could just easily, unless there's something else there we don't know, but he could easily bundle that into the closest he's gone to saying I got something wrong, which is he said in my first term, I didn't know anybody in D.C. I relied on the experts, and they gave me a bunch of garbage people, and I had to go through them. So all he has to do, and he can throw this right at Mike Pence, his favorite failure.

Mike Pence was in charge of this. We put him in charge of the task force and he let us down just like he let us down on January 6th. He let us down over and over again. Mike Pence, what a loser. I like how he's got to do it. I like your Trump impression while you're... That's all he's got to do and everybody's going to be like, thank you. Now get these damn things out of our children. Get this thing off. Thank you, Mike Pence. Just throw it on Mike Pence. It makes sense if it's Mike Pence. Well, look, I mean, again, the...

that's a really big issue to a lot of people. Yeah. And you know, a lot of people are kind of throwing a fit with this nomination because they don't feel like she's sufficiently on the right side of things. And so that'll be interesting. And then also like, you know, I think clearing up the junk out of our food is going to be like a pretty clear, easy path. My concern is that like a lot of people are,

are involved, whether it be, um, the means is whether it be RFK, um, and just kind of like the general, you know, cause he says, I said so much himself that like they think sugar is poison. Yeah. And, and here I am saying like sugar is like the best thing you could possibly come for it. Probably. Yeah. You know, I mean like, remember like New York, uh, instituted like the, the sugar tax or the soda tax or the big gulp tax, whatever they did. Um, when I lived in, uh,

Boulder, Colorado, there was a city-wide sugar tax. And so if I wanted a Coca-Cola and I went through the McDonald's drive-thru, if I just drove like five minutes to the next town over, my soda was like 30 cents cheaper. That makes a big difference when you're going through as much soda as you go through with your diet.

Yeah. Just like gas. Well, well, you know, I know I don't I don't normally drink my sodas out if I'm trying to keep the price down, you know, you know, I'm teasing Costco and get a case. No, I think the means brother and sister are anti sugar from what I see. And, you know, Kennedy seems to be against sugar.

I tried to push people and I still am pushing people who are more open to the other approach. But again, I still have this ethical dilemma in my mind that again, and unless, I mean, we're trying to do this stuff in real time. If we have to find a blueprint that is mass person friendly to do a bioenergetic adjacent method of weight loss and other issues, because, you know, you can't, you can't, you can't run it that way.

Well, again, it's like, you know, it's always interesting, like what you say that clicks with somebody like, OK, just don't eat carbs. And that's your thing. You're right. That's super easy. I think if you give someone just one the idea that on any given day they can just eat nothing but fruit like that, just like if someone just walks away from this and goes, I'm going to continue my normal diet. But on two separate days during the week, I'll just eat nothing but fruit. I think that'll already start moving the needle in the right place. Yeah.

Uh, you've got, um, the, I think the biggest thing I've tried to focus on is they need to go after seed oils, Maha. And I'm hoping that Kennedy, by starting with the infant formula and he started to clear that up, if he clears out the seed oils or reduces them dramatically, uh,

For the infant formula, that would give him a foundation to then go up the ladder and start hitting other foods, right? That's actually a great point. If he could just do nothing else besides make it illegal to put seed oils in formula,

That would be huge.

That was, I wonder, this might be, you know, this is more like USDA than him, but I wonder if we can get rid of these seed oil subsidies. Right. That would be huge. But see, he's not going to do that because, you know, you got, he put Brooke Rollins there at USDA and she's a total neocon and she's just going to make sure that the establishment is taken care of. If you saw that, he would lose so many big, like he would really put a lot of pressure on, um,

collapsing some of those Midwestern agricultural states. Yeah, you would lose a lot of donors there. But if you saw Nicole Shanahan's tweet about Casey Means, she was saying that she thinks someone that's not RFK and that is not Trump is kind of running the show. You think it is?

I mean, I don't think I would know who it is. But, you know, it seems like someone is trying to like reel this in. And it could just be like, look, there's just so much money against it that the pressure is so strong. You know, I mean, you could just like throw out like, I don't know, is it a Bill Gates thing? I don't know. Is it some shadowy figure we don't know about? Like, the question is, if it's someone that we think that we would know who they are versus just like,

you know, these various pharmaceutical companies, the agricultural companies. Those big conglomerate groups like BlackRock and stuff that own so much shares in the drug companies and the food companies. And, you know, I don't know what kind of influence they have because, you know, you own a certain percentage of ownership of all these different assets that are predicated on us all staying sick.

That's tough to take that whole thing on. Ultimately, this is where we have to be Ron Paul. The market has to win this. Ron Paul's always right. Sometimes the details are going to be a little bit fuzzy about how we get there, but the market's got to win. The market didn't get rid of the artificial food dyes. I get that. I'm saying

I'm saying it's a, but, but the market also is what allowed for Kennedy to have any kind of political movement in the first place. Sure. If you consider the market to be like the will of the people. Yeah. Well, the demand of the people. So what we want to do is we want to help.

bring the culture along to drive that, right? We want to make it more known. We do podcasts, we do media, we make people know what health is. And that's how we get there. Yeah. In 2018, I was the only guy on major market FM, AM news talk radio, talking to normies every day, 2017, 2018 about seed oils and politically contextualizing them as nobody did that. That was me. And I did that for years.

And nope, Kennedy wasn't talking about seed oils and I would have to list them all. Cotton seed oil, canola oil. I did the whole thing. And I hit that Monday through Friday live on radio to major market stations like in Orlando and Tampa Bay and around the world. And I brought on Ray P and all those early and I was bringing on our coalition. And that's what has to happen.

is you have to build a coalition with the keto people, which is why I'm friends with a lot of those keto guys, because they got on the seed oil thing. And so you need to drive. So you have to scapegoat a common enemy. And that's what, that's what I think. That's what I think it's important where this like alliance, so to speak is like, we want like the junk out of our food. And it's like, look, we'll, if you don't touch our sugar, we'll support you in getting all the seed oils, all the artificial dyes, all the, all the crap. Like,

Like, you know, it's like I don't I don't care if the person wants to eat keto. Do I think that some people might thrive on that? Yes, I do. I don't know what circumstances would lead someone to do that. But I firmly believe that it's possible that just some people are going to do better that way. And if we think of like we this is what the greater movement is, is we want the junk out of our food. And like I'm sorry, but like cane sugar is not junk. It's just sugar.

You know, like if they think, you know, look at all the processed keto foods, but they think that like, you know, oh, we're going to use a tapioca starch or something or we're using, you know, some weird MCT. MCT oil is a processed food.

If you want your MCT oil, we get to have our sugar, you know, like leave it at that. And then we can all agree. You know, it's like, don't touch. Yeah. You tell the keto guys, don't, we are not going to touch your butter and your bacon. And you don't know. I mean, look, and that's the thing is like, I eat all that stuff. I eat the saturated. I want the raw milk. I want the butter. I want the grass fed meat. I want all that stuff. I want the organic produce.

A lot of the low-carb paleo people will be cool with fruit. They just don't like fruit juices. They don't like sodas. Well, look, I saw something that I – in and out. So I told you the pineapple – I'm sorry, the pineapple, the pink lemonade, they're going to switch from high-fructose corn syrup ketchup to regular sugar ketchup. Have they switched out their oil yet with their fries? Are they still seed oil? Not yet, not yet, not yet. At least I haven't seen anything about it. But –

It's a big market to be in if you can be getting into tallow distribution. Yeah, that's going to be the tough part. But they have like a Simply Heinz. So there's a different brand. Within Heinz, they have a different version which has cane sugar. But then I saw on the comments on Twitter people saying, can we get one without sugar? It's like, no, it's ketchup. Otherwise, it's just tomato paste. Yeah, see, that's what's going to happen is that these industries are going to get kind of confused and exasperated because –

They're going to get, you know, some people hitting them on, you know, change out your oils and other people can be like, no, it changed out your sugars. Well, look, that that's why I'm doing, I'm doing everything I can to get ahead, get like on top of this cultural thing. And I want people to like, know what's healthy. Seed oil. We have to attack the seed oil, be laser focused on that. That's it. You hit that. You, if you kill that one, you, you know, then everything. Because look, look, think, okay. Think about what we were talking about earlier. That,

It's easy to avoid carbs, but it's hard to avoid fat. It's invisible. You can't see it. Right. It's really hard to avoid seed oils because everything is cooked in it. If you don't want sugar, don't eat the sugar. If you don't want high fructose corn syrup, don't drink the soda. Don't eat the ketchup. The issue is, again, from the industry standpoint, there's simply not enough at this time, from what I understand, not enough alternatives to seed oil to switch over the whole industry and the restaurant industry today in America.

It needs to ramp up production. You've got avocado oil, which I know people think is sketchy, but that's going to have to stand in the gap for some of this as a transition. You know what I mean? And quality olive oil is sketchy again. People have arguments about that. But you're going to have to have all oils on base or whatever. That whole thing is like everybody's got to get out here on deck and help

Well, look, our government has paid farmers to do a bunch of terrible things. If we actually paid farmers to, hey, you grow canola seed. Okay, we're now going to pay you if you convert it to cattle. The thing is, man, it's like at some point you get that real politic. These are psychopaths that run these cartel mafias. Oh, I know. I know.

It's not just farmer bills. Oh, really? I could. Trust me. I know. There's a, there's this one seed oil shill online that, uh, I forget his name, but like my, me and my friends and stuff, we've gotten into spats with him over years and years. Um,

um where he's like um he says like glyphosate you know he works for like he's on the board of like the seed oil commission or something and he's like a shill for monsanto and so we keep he we had some argument about raw milk and i told him okay you're pro glyphosate i'm pro raw milk here's a video of me drinking raw milk let me see your video of you drinking glyphosate drink the roundup i think his name is kevin i don't know what and the hashtag was drink the roundup kevin

Well, if we can get Secretary Kennedy to go after anti-Israel sentiment, you know, seed oils as much as he's going after anti-Israel, we will cure obesity in about three weeks. Yeah. You know what I mean? He's like a dog on a bone on that one. If we can get him on that for seed oils with that level of passion, if we could just get one half

the passion that he commits his twitter feed to anti-semitism if we could get that committed to battling seed oils we'll be i i will say i will say as a jew on behalf of the jewish people kennedy go put your energy there you go there you go you should do a campaign you know

There you go. Because Israel, what is it? They have the highest concentration of seed oil. So you need to start a campaign that anti-Semitism. It's because of all the hummus. It's because of all the hummus. What's that called? The Israel paradox? They eat the highest amount of polyunsaturated fat. They have the highest heart attacks and stuff. The French paradox is that they eat the highest amount of saturated fat and have the lowest...

heart disease and the Israeli paradox is that they eat the highest amount of polyunsaturated fat and they have the highest. Here it is, Josh. We found your duty to our nation. Start a campaign that combating anti-Semitism starts with combating seed oil.

Because seed oil is the number one driver killing Israelis right now. And to get that to Kennedy, he'll stop that today. Okay, but keep in mind, if I tell people that anti-seed oil is pro-Israel, a bunch of people are going to flip on seed oils. Yeah, we got to get this. These messages have to be siloed behind the scenes. I appreciate your time, Josh. Hey, great talking to you. Tell us about your...

or your Twitter or your, um, you know, podcast, whatever you want to share. Yeah. I'm on, uh, all everything. Um, with, uh, at Josh Rainer gold Rainer spelled R A I N E R. That's my Twitter and Instagram handle. That's my YouTube, uh, URL. Uh,

and my podcast is, you know, you can find it on there. It's called the Rainer radio. Um, you can find it on Spotify and sub second, all the things. What are you talking about there? Health? Are you talking about politics? Um, you know, mostly health, but then there's also plenty of political element to it as well. And especially as, as, um, health pertains to politics. Um, and so Maha stuff is super interesting to me, of course. And that's like, uh, a big part of it. Um,

Have you read my piece, uh, for towards a rate, we need a repeat summer, which is my call for metabolic. I have seen that. I have seen that. Yeah. Um, and lately I've just been on this like sugar diet kick on my YouTube. I'm talking a lot about that because I think that this is like an incredibly powerful tool to like cut through all the other health metabolic issues and like speed run it. I, I, I mean, again, like, I don't want to say that like we've, um, um,

like a simplified down pitting, you know, I, I wouldn't need dare to do such a thing like that. I think we can speed run past a lot of the issues and then get people further along because that could, because the weight and the fat and the metabolic issue is just such a huge part of it for so many people.

Yeah. I appreciate your time. And you've offered a lot of, you know, food for thought. I want people to reach out to me and let me know how they go. If they follow you or anabolic or these other people doing these types of sugar things and see what their results are. So it's a whole new, we're building a whole new cultural framework. You know, we don't have Tony the tiger anymore. We have people like Josh. And you, and you, I'm very, very grateful for you. And you know, I think our, our network of people are going to,

we really needed to kind of, in a sense, do our part to drive this into a better place. And so, you know, thank you for everything you do and thank you for having me on. I appreciate it. Take care.