Why the Grammys need to change, with CEO Harvey Mason Jr
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Hello, welcome to decoder on the lap, tel editor in chief of the verge. And decoder is my show about big ideas and other problems. Today i'm talking with harvey Mason junior. He's a CEO of the recording academy, the non profit organization that puts on the grammy awards most prestigious awards of music and which runs the music cares charity, which helps artists need. Harvey is a fascine guy.

As a musician and producer, he's worked on projects with destiny child, Britney spears like jack and girls, generation tones, war, as well as produced the music in movies like pitch perfect and straight out of content. A CEO of the academy. Harry had a lot of work to do since he started in january twenty twenty.

His predecessor was asked after just five months in the role in a swarm. Scandals in the grammy is, along with the mis and the Oscars at that time, for facing a reckoning with massive race and gender in equality in the awards. In top of all that, the music industry itself came to a crashing hall.

During the pandemic is life. Word shows stopped happening, which made music cares more important than ever. So he's been busy this past few years.

And now the world of music is having a moment, some of the biggest tours ever and an entirely new crop of emerging major artists. The twenty twenty five gram nominations were just announced, and you can see IT in the list. Chapel road and supreme na carpenter are nominated for album of the year right alongside beyond, say, tailor swift.

Now here the koto was, you know, them always saying that watching how tech changes the music industry is a preview into how tech will change everything else. Five years now, and the grammies and the recording academy aren't no exception. See, the way it's work for the past fifty years is that cbs pays a huge feet to the recording academy to broadcast the gravy.

And the recording academy takes that money and uses that to fund things like music cares and lobbying ing for legislation that protects our test rights. This doesn't a secret. You'll hear harvey laid out blunt and say, the gram es is where all the money comes from.

This all work great in an era where traditional T, V. Networks had tons of money to spend and command a huge amount of attention because so many people watch traditional T, V. But that era is over. And Harry recently decided to move the grammies to disney. Started in twenty twenty seven, which will bring the show to A, B, C S, but also potentially to disney class in who, if you've been paying attention of the TV industry life TV is increasingly driven by sports and awards shows like the grains.

So I want you to know how harvey was thinking about this deal, what the possibility of streaming distribution would mean for the show itself, and how much he thought the grandma's needed, the prestige and brand power of a company like disney, or is the wider distribution of something like we also talked about the grammy awards themselves, but the categories are how the winners are chosen and who those winners get to be. That's actually been harvest biggest project. The academy just completely requalification its pool of voting members of the grams, part of a years long effort, bran Younger voters and more women and people of color at the same time.

The end that means the very idea of the art and music been getting blurrier and blurrier for over decade asked Harry to define pop music, and you will hear him think through the answer. The internet has also created massive fenders and stand culture. And I wanted to know how harvey was thinking about that in the context of awards, which are supposed to be about recognizing art, not just popularity.

course. R. V, I also talk to an AI which is posed to disrupt almost every creative industry and which has already caused major lawsuits and controversy and music.

You'll hear how to explain that he's not a reflective AI hater and then he thinks there's a place for some of these tools and music production. In fact, he made a major decision to allow music made with AI to be eligible for the grammar. But like so many other folks we have talked to, you'll hear him out the irreplaceable, irrepressible benefits of human creativity.

And you're also hear a bit that he's nervous about at all. And that's sorting IT all out is just going to be complex. I'll be on to you. This is one of my favorite decoder conversations in a while.

As you can probably tell, I love talking about the music industry, and Harry was open to thinking through a lot of these issues out loud on the show. okay? Recording academy C. E. O harvey min, junior, here we go.

Harry was in junior in a CEO of the recording academy.

Welcome to the coder.

I'm excited. Talk to you. As you might know, i'm obsessed with the music industry. I think paying attention to the music industry is the best way to predict what happens to every other creative industry.

Five years from now, you obvious ly have a deep amount of insight into that. And then on top that we're talking a week before gramma ominous come out, always interested in how that works. Are you're thinking about that process that such an important part of the cultural council every year and we have to talk about there's just .

an infinite amt of everybody's to talk about why not us?

Yeah, I feel like I I like I like the readers might throw me off the ledge. Decoder is about or alternatively, if I keep going in, my army of leg will find out. Let's start with the basics.

You've been in this job as C. O. Since twenty twenty. There was a big shake up in the recording academy.

There was locked down the music in the street, went into hybernation for a minute. We all did a lot of human recordings. Now we'll back into massive tours, or a new air of stars emerging. What's sort? The very basics, though, tell people what the recording academy is and how IT participates in the music industry.

Well, starts with our show. And most people know us from our show, the grammy show. We've been doing a grammar show for sixty six years.

I've been doing them senses you said four years ago as the C. E. O. But the grammar show celebrates music, lifts creators and show cases, all the different channels and music. The recording academy that produces the grammies generates revenue from that show.

And we use that revenue that paid to us by cbs for licensing fee to do all the programs we do throughout the year. So it's add because, you know, fighting for the rights and music people talking about A I, we do to turn the stuff in that space, make sure human creators protected other copyright intellectual property protections that we're working on. We spend in millions and millions of dollars every year advocating for the rights of music people.

And that's one area. The other areas anthropic, a organization that's within the academy called music cares. Music cares is a, can they give back organization for anybody? Is a musician.

You don't have to be a member. But if you're professional work in the music induction, you need help. If you are sick, facing a drug addiction, mental health crisis, if you crash your car, someone broken a store, your guitar, these are things that music care takes care.

And again, millions and millions dollars every year during go. But we give fifty million dollars and eight to music people that need to help. And then we do a lot to our museum education and preservation of music, making sure the next generation of kids is exposed.

The music can I? I didn't have an instrument in my hand, and we didn't know about all the different genres and music. I wouldn't have a career.

So making sure we do a lot of work through that. And that's what was funded and financed by our show and our performance. So that kind of the structure of the recording, again.

that's really interesting to me. You describes some very important film topic. You describes some very important working.

My music cares I think of is a stabilizing force in the music industry. There isn't a great social service and insight. So cheering musicians don't have regular jobs that provides an essential stability for those folks. There's a lot there that I think is important, but you're very open that the revenue comes from the show and from the licensing, the cbs. We will talk a little bit about where that deal is going and how changing because you oldest announced that you're leaving cbs in a couple years, but stick with the present day for a minute.

Do you think the incentives are aligned there? Like if if I look at that in the most broad possible way, it's cbs is paying for A T V show, and that T V show is paying to provide essential stability to turning recording artists. And that might be a little weird ever, ever strike you that that's not all perfectly alive.

No, actually, IT strikes me as being incredibly aligned because the idea the show is to benefit creators, even in just on its face, the show itself. We know the economic impact the show has to creators and sunrise producers, engineers, all the the ancilla or ten gently connected people that work in our industry all get a lift from our show. The streaming goes up, the consumption goes up, the ability to tour goes up.

So that helps the creative community and then all the revenue we create. And you said most of the revenue is what we put all of the revenue that we put into a country from that show know the major drivers for revenue for the academy are the show, other grammy week activities, ticket sales and sponsorships, which really kind of happen during grammy week. All that money goes back in the serving, the continue.

So for me, the only thing that's a little bit this line is a lack of information that the creative community has about why we do the show and that we even do these other thing. A lot of people just think all the grammar are just the show. And I spend a lot of time and energy, and we've got to do a Better job with this as an academy living created creatives and artists.

Producers know the reason that the show is so important is because that creates a bunch of money. Hate to be so crap, but it's a cash that we can use and deploy them back into our music community. So Better the show is, the Better the ratings are, the more money we can generate from that show, more money that comes directly back into our industry.

Yeah, and that's part of the reason I asked the question that way. I realized that was pretty blunt. But that idea that the show, which is a defining broadcast television production, is the thing that stabilizes the music industry in the way that that, say, music industry, I think, is a little a peak to most people, sounds like it's a peak to some european members.

But IT also seems like a thing you can poke out and say, is this how we should be structured? And so curious here, you're new in the role. You're obviously been through a lot of change.

I want to ask you about the TV side of IT, right? Because the idea that broadcast television is a rich source of revenue, imagine you have some perspective on that. Is that is changing as well. But is this how should be structured if you could change that? Would you want to diversify that revenue at .

all thousand percent? And that's one of my big goals for my time here, the academies, to make sure that we're not so relying on just TV. Having said that, we are expLoring a lot of different opportunities how to best utilize the brand while still supporting music people on doing things within our mission.

We don't want to disco, you sell coffee mugs or just do different random things. We want to make sure it's on brand, on mission, this most coveted award because it's our peers voting for our peers. So we want to make sure we keep that in mind.

It's got to be a part of whatever we do to expand. And I would love I about miss alan, and I would love to find an additional way to generate a bunch of money resources that we could use for our community. But right now, our deal with cbs is thing that what was the needle the most for us and allows us to have the maximum impact within our community.

Let's come back to that in a minute. Just continue. Just have the ordination structured for one second. How many people are the record academy? What is the the business of click .

on the staff side, roughly three hundred people between our different files. As I said, it's the academy, is the latin academy museum and music cares those kind of people. They're distributed equally.

How many people work at music cares verses the show itself, for example.

A IT kind of fluctuates, but the majority of the people work for the recording appropriate. Two hundred people for the academy, and then some split between the light and academy, the museum and music cares.

And how many people are spending all of their time just working on the grammy words over zero?

That's a that's a season of effort. That's something that we do. It's a six months focus on me. We're always thinking about the shower really directing a lot of our efforts towards the outcomes that will happen on the show.

But the show production is very specific to a few months of the year, the rest of the year, the teams working on awards, on membership, on advocate and all the things that I talked about throughout the academy. And we have know a great staff of the I department. We have human people in culture with there's a lot of different departments that are focused on making sure that the academy can have that impact, making sure we are growing the right membership.

And we talk about the awards. And our ability to moitie our illegal property program is to show we have to have the right awards. So you can have the right awards department thinking about that, have the right membership department because without the right members, and I want to hit the right results in order to stay relevant, have to have relevant members.

So we ve just got through a membership overall. Hundred percent of our members have been requalification. We have sixty six percent of our members are all new with the last five years.

And we've just add the three thousand new women voters. We've got almost forty percent people of culture or people of color. M sorry, those are not the numbers that we had four years ago. So we are all very proud as a staff, and our elected leadership is to the work has been done to change our membership ship, which then, of course, changes the awards, changes our show, changes our ability to generate revenue.

It's interesting. I interview so many taxi OS on a show and asked them what their products are and how their structure to make those products. Think of me answers that are broadly familiar, right?

We have a design team. We have a engineering team. We've got go to market team. Your product is the awards IT seems very clear. Just in talking to just for the first five minute here, you're very focused on the grammy words as a product.

And when you're describing is we need the right members to vote on those awards and then we need the right team members deciding what those awards should be so that at the end, when we put on A T, V show, it's the right list of awards and we come to the outcomes of people want. How much fiddling do you do with that year to year? Because IT part of the part of, I think the value of the grammar is that IT is an institution. Yeah right, so that some things have to stay the same and some things I always have to change as you're describing. Yeah how much do you think about that .

about I think about IT constantly to take the truth and fiddling is a nicer way of or in maybe what player of saying about it's really the evolution of what we do in the iteration around everything at the academy. And that has been a bigger of focus for me in my management team over the last four years because we are six years old, is the iconic institution, if I could say so.

And that means a lot to a lot of people, including people, the music community, but also music fans. So we want to be respectful of what that is and what that has been. But for me, we cannot afford to be staying.

That music moves so fast and you and your fewness listeners, no technology in this way. People are consuming music. And art is evolving so rapidly that we had to evolve as an organization.

So I spend a lot of time thinking, how can we adjust? How can we put at how can we see around the corner what's happening next? So a lot of that work, have the say comes from our membership because the membership really submitted the changes they have, submit proposals.

What are we going to honor music this year? What are how we're going to tittle this new category? What type of the omen'd ure behind this is general music.

And the reason is so important is that the members are the ones that know. They know Better than I do. They know Better than a lot of the staff use.

Our members are music professionals, so they might hear something in the new year is coming up like, oh, you guys are not catching on. We have the honest music, and that's how we continue to perpetuate the excEllence of music so we can show case different things. So it's stant got tweet or fiddling with constant folding.

Tweaking is nice than fiddling.

no constant fiddy. And that process happens a couple times a year. There are a process of submit proposals and then they go into the trusty room. We vote our staff adoption when they take place next year in the show.

How do you manage the tension between you have a professional organization that creates the awards, you have professional members who vote on the awards, and then you're making the grammies for maybe the most mainstone impossible audience on cbs, which is maybe the most mainstream of the broadcast networks. And all anybody really wants to see is tailor swift or a whenever award. And there's a mismatch right between fandom culture on the one side, particularly music stand culture, on like to put a more precise name on IT, and then a bunch of music professional saying actually this job tests album is the best album of the year, right? Think there's like there's a real violence there that seems hard to manage.

BaLance is nice at the collision. Sometimes IT is truly IT can be contentious. IT can be controversial.

But for us, and i'll say for me personally, what I love about IT is there's another word like IT because is not about popularity. It's not about who got the most dreams or who got the most likes. It's truly about the people that are in the industry.

And we're working day and day out around music, listening to the records or songs or albums or and the deciding which one they think is the best. And it's subjective. And we know that there's no not basketball game all up to the interpretation of the listener.

But what makes are so valuable. And as now maybe this isn't always going to be the case, but as now the most people television show in regards to music is because it's not just about popular, it's not predictable. It's about the voters giving the award for the year to the artist that or music that they love. And IT also attracts a different type of participation or attention from the artist community because it's a very desired thing to have your peers tell you you've done something special in that year, I think is meaningful. So there's an extra gravitas or weight to the grammar, which I think translates to the viewers.

How do you think about that in the context of the criticism that the grammies often gets from the larger public or from listeners, for example, beyond, say, just doesn't win album the year, record of the year, these are the awards people want her to win, is one of the major artists in our space, one of the cultural icons over time. This is when, I don't know what else to say, we're heading into ominous season.

I think this conversation going to open up again. How do you think about that? right? That's that's what a huge loud set of consumers wants from you from the show.

sure. And I hear them loud and clear. I would love her to win out of the year.

Would also love you bunch other people who went out money. I think there is great music. I think it's also subjective.

Bianca obviously has a ton of very loyal and supportive fans, which I don't blind for. Bonce is one a ton of grammy awards. So we really respect her creativity and her artistry.

No question about that is a voting body. Uh, there is different things that happened throughout the year that the voters sometimes resonate within certain categories and other categories. Ah IT doesn't resonate.

So it's really hard to predict. I am excited for this year because has been so many amazing records. There has been great work by us, an amazing artist.

So i'm very optimistic tic for this year as far as who wins what and who gets snob, who is happy and who's mad. I mean, I can't predict that. What I can predict is the voters will do.

They are very best to listen the music, to evaluate the music. The other thing I can say is we also have a very different boating body now. Then we had three years ago that we had five years ago that we had ten years ago that vote body.

That's the thing you turned over, that this year's big project. Can you announced the change? You you just said earlier, you requalification at one hundred percent of the members, but that's one way to change the outcome, right?

To change voters, the only way, but the other way is to change the awards themselves, right? Which i'll come to. I think we can pursue that on two tracks, but we're going to change who's voting is one way to change them. Did you actively think, okay, we're getting to some of the wrong answers and who wins these awards? We got to change .

the membership. IT didn't come so much from the answers. Yeah maybe personally did back that. But what I really stand from looking at the makeup of our voting body and and looking at the makeup of music creators and who's making IT versus who's consuming IT versus who's voting on. And we wanted to make sure our membership is representative of our music community.

And when I got here, or just wasn't, we didn't have enough people of color, we didn't have enough women, didn't have certain representation and certain generals and dance community, rock community, country. So we needed to rebaLance or tweak er can member the word you use, which I like so much fiddle. We needed to fiddle with the membership.

We need to fiddle that. Make sure that he was aligning with, with not just the world, but more importantly, specifically with music and the music community, the genres we had to look at, the genres, what genres are really popular? Do we have enough members in those genres to evaluate IT accurate?

What are the new journals coming up that we want to make sure that we are able to interpret and vote for and get good outcomes? Well then if that a new one, we had to make sure we have members to support that otherwise having a new category with no nobody that can understand the new answer to find points of that general voting, it's it's it's a failed concept. And so we want to make sure that the voters aligned with music and how it's being made and concerned .

here at the end of the process. Now you requalification one hundred percent of people. You've added new members. Do you think you're there? Do you think you have room to grow and changing of all further?

And we still have room to grow. No question where where our goals where we set those goals pretty aggressively. We met them a bit early actually, but i'll continue to be new stretch goals and new things that I want accomplish with our membership.

And our membership team is amazing. They're so um proactive and we have great committees around our membership team and elected leadership. We really passionate about membership. And as we said, until I hear your ideas for now, that's the way we think we can affect change in the outcomes and affect the relevance of our wars and continue to grow the grammy brand on the global, global basis.

We have to take .

a short break. All your ept.

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Walking back, i'm talking with recording academy CEO Harry made in junior about his flexi product, the grammy awards right for the break, talking about how the academy is shaken up its membership to Better reflect the music industry of today. But now i'm dying to know how he's handling one of the hardest st parts of this shower. So the other way that at least comes to mind for me is the awards themselves.

And maybe you disagree, there's the halo wards record song album only me that there's just a unch of categorization, best rap album versus best rock album. That implies that those journals exist and you can easily sort albums into them. The grammy is only just got rid of best urban album recently, right?

That is a category with a long and loaded history. Maybe we don't need that anymore. But what the intern has done to music, baby, is really blurry, or, yes, completely, endlessly blurred.

Honour in ways that are exciting is IT a Frankly confusing. And maybe the only general about this country, which is ever, is making a country out them this year. Because you can just go there and say it's different than what you were doing before you could change those awards. You could just requalification all these jonna too, and say, here are some hard lines. Do everything about that.

Well, I love to hear your thoughts more. Many talk about hard lines. The goal for the genre awards is to trying to find some guard rails in which to fit music.

And that's a very hard you're talking about, again, art and someone's interpretation of art. And had a couple those in the different buckets so the people can evaluate them comparatively. So we don't want to see hip hop going against rock because they're so this similar to similar audiences as, I think, the similar people that are creating.

But as music becomes more and more, uh, you blurred together or mashed up, I guess i'll say there will be some conversations around how we're going to title the words, how we're going to include them in different fields and who should be voting on the right now we have different fields. So you have no a rock fiel number that will be a bit of different owners of rock, and you have a hip hop field in a classical field. And the way our voting works is we encourage our voters to vote in three fields.

So you don't want somebody doesn't anything about country just going into that category because our favorite artists over there, or by first, you don't need someone voting in classical that only knows one classical artists. The way we try to do is is have qualified voters voting for the music that they like. Now to your point, as music changes and general walls come down, will be able to open that up a little bit more.

But that is again something that will be determined by our professional music community. Our members all say, hey, Harry, you know what? Members of team, the academy? No, we think rock and jazz sound like coming together. Let's put that in one category. And when that happens, because our members are telling us these things that will happen and that will change the way we go.

can you just do me a favour? And tried to define pop music in twenty twenty four .

about music in twenty twenty four.

There's A I feel like I could define hip hop yeah I feel like I could take a run, a defining rock. I don't know that I .

could to find pop music.

The pop music is it's a bit of morphs because IT changes from here to you and IT has something to do with the in the term, in the title itself, popular. And it's the genre that tends to have know the big, the courses, the single millions, the ride style production and vote less. And it's very difficult because there are a lot of records I get lumped in to pop.

And as a creator, I can create IT and I can show you on a piano, and I can sing, sing IT, but is a hard definition to nail down. The voters tend to do a really good job of that and making sure that they're voting for music they feel should be in that category. And also the way are labels and artists and independent labels submit, they submit their music where they want to be.

And so somebody feel like this is a pop record. IT will going to pop. And for the most part, that's where it's evaluated.

I just think something there's something so interesting happening. We is on on because of the rise into that and we're well into IT now I think Taylors will fit a piece of the death of draw like ten years ago, I think, for the wall street journal.

And there just seems to be a chaos and industry that maybe fans have figured out, but the industry itself is still struggling with, whether that's little mozart eight years ago, whether that's cowboy Carter beyond this year. IT feels like we don't quite want to draw these lanes anymore, but we need them in order to have things like the great my words or have enough awards to give out instead of one award for song or music. And is that something you're actively talking about? Is that does that come up with with your members, with the staff of the recording academy? Where do these arguments really come from?

Where do these arguments land? They land by saying our members will tell us when it's time. And the members, again, our professionals, there are all the people working in studios, on tours, engineers, right to producers, artists, singers. They are the professionals.

And when they say, you know what, we're tired as generous or we're tired of separating people and putting them in boxes that will evolve, I can promise you that because our organization has never move faster, has never been more fluid. We've never listen closer to our members or our music community. So when that starts to happen, we will make sure that things .

are just do you ever think about just doing and of microphones like we're just gonna have a drilled award this year, like how do you think about that? Because that's another way you could do IT and you could get more artists in the theater. You could sell more tickets to get more ratings.

But to music IT, IT was a moment. It's now kind of everywhere, like you can hear IT, in fact, all of him up. So IT is kind of like devolved.

It's not being a microphone or but just being a sound that's going to come and go like it's going to go. But last year, you could have just been like we have a drill category and here's the best of hours to the year. And the next year mean, we won't have that category and we'll have something else. Is that something that comes up? Is that an option that you've thought about?

Because that is me i've heard proposed. yes. And what tense need to happen is, again, the voters need to have an expertise in the year.

So we have enough voters that new exactly was gone on the drill, general music, that they would pop up and say, guys, we're missing a whole group of music here. We need to honor R. T.

We would create a category. We go up in the next show, and they would then vote without that movement, without the momentum m behind the genre is sustainable. That translates in the members. We would be popping new owners in the show without the support. And I can.

The underpinning that IT needs to be to be accurate because if we put in a drill category now and we didn't have enough voters and we had the wrong outcomes because just a random people started about, I know this named on me, go for them. IT would be disrespectful to the creators. And that genre would also be, I think, detrimental to the brand of the academy, and they can to gram me.

So when the time is right for those new generals, like to think that it'll be there. We just add the best african performance, and we see the rise of on a piano and all the different genres, afra beats. And we had the voters, we have the support they propose the award.

It's now in yeah, let me ask you the big decoder question. And then I want to talk about that question. In practice, you obviously have a lot of decisions to make.

What awards are you going to give into? Who is some of the biggest decisions there? What's your framework for making those decisions?

The framework for making decisions around awards is very different than my personal framework around decisions that i'd like. The implemented academy, as IT relates to awards, is a very straight forward process. The problem awards or other changes and proposals are introduced by our members to discuss through appropriate committee.

Where's planning, governance or awards? And nominations goes to the committee system. They voted up or down and then goes avoid trustees.

And he gets voted up or down. And I don't have a vote in those things. They try to make sure the conversation going in the right direction. That really comes down to our board and our chair once those things are put in place and have to decide how to implement them. And that's a pretty rateable ard process around the war.

But maybe the broader question you're asking is like how to I personally um yeah how do I C E O? How do I make the decisions in my role and I spend a lot of time listening, to be honest, and I make sure what the answer is for some of your other people that even interview the other CEO. But I don't pretend to know more than I know.

You know, i'm a lifetime learner, not in nowhere. And so when IT comes time for a decision, I I tend to move relatively quickly. I don't sit and do I think in a perfection, sometimes you get the way of making progress.

So i'll listen, i'll semble my team. I'll get the information that I need to make an educated strategic decision, and then all wait IT. And to this point, my instincts, and you know, my my finger's has been on the pulse of what our organization wants or needs, and our members seems to be resonating with the decisions that have been happening.

But if my personal taste or feelings fall out of favor with that, then I would really change my decision, make a process for a lot of what I do is gathered the information, decide from here. What I think is right is almost like making music. To tell the truth, that was a son, right, to produce for years.

And if you're making music for everybody else, you're trying to guess what's next and you're trying to make people happy, you're onna make the same music and everyone else making me. If you're making music that IT turns you on, that excites you, that you love as a creator, and you come out as laws, your taste aligned with the consumers, you'll win. So I feel the same way in the way I like to to run our organization. A lot of listening, a lot of collaborating. And trying to make smart, swift thought of decisions and feel .

like a lot of the other CEO I talked to would be well served. They spend some time trying to make some music, so just trying to make eye. Everyone will comes to that though.

Let me put that into practice. This week you announced that you're gona leave cbs. You're gna take the grams to disney and stream across disney plus loon and A B C.

You've said IT already. Cbs represents almost one hundred percent of revenue of the organization. You've been on cbs for fifty years.

Yeah, that's a big change. That's a big decision to go to a new partner into new platform as a new distribution. Why make that decision and how .

do you make IT definitely see change. Transformational turning point in our organization. IT was a very difficult decision to be, honestly, because cbs has been a great partner.

They've done amazing work with us to believe for fifty four shows. And when I came into this role, I realized that we had four years until there will be renegotiation. And I really had a vision in a plan for where I thought the academy needed to go.

And partially, that's why they have me in these roles to come figure out what that vision is and make sure we're executing on IT, aligning with the board trustees in our executive leadership and the executive committee. We know what has to happen. And the idea behind who is going to be on a partner to help us get there was a big part of that decision making process. And we met within several people and ultimately ended up going with a different partner because of the fact that is really aligned with our future vision and where we wanted to go and how we wanted to continue to build and grow new organza, but more importantly, how we could serve more people and execute in our mission and in broader, wider, deeper scale. Ah so we're really excited about the future.

You have to decide, right? You you're you come on to the job, you know you're really negotiating four years deals up. You got to stick with ABS or you got to go find a new partner after fifty years IT feels like maybe the default was to say to cbs.

And the first decision was they actually going to open this up. How do you come to that? Just a moment when you thought i've got a i've gotten make sure I know what my options were.

That was really the decision making factor. I wanted to know what our options were and make sure that we were expLoring all possibilities. You know, i'm in this role temporarily for her alone.

I'm here, but i'm really for duce and a start of the brand. And I think it's an institution that easily be protected. It's a not for profit, you know, we're not doing this other than to serve music people.

So the idea was how can we reach the best deal? How can we find in the partner that most lions of the future vision of the organza. So IT was an opportunity to explore the market. I thought that only made sense even with the fifty four year history that we had to cbs again being great partners. I think anyone would say if you have the opportunity to see what else is there, you should take a look and and try to find that, that write align going forward.

But they are a bit ward. This is just show up and say we're gna pay more than everybody else. Did you have other options?

I will say we other options, probably we won't go too much deeper than that out of respect for our partners on both sides. But ah you know cbs has been amazing to work with and I also really look forward to seeing was going to come next in our new .

when I think about the value that C B S brought over that sweep of fifty plus years, the they are one of the three big broadcast networks in united states, the Tiffany network. They have a the actually broadcast inside the higher quality and some, which I always appreciate about cbs. But they they had a distribution in all way.

They were just a nationally broadcast TV nearly that came into everyone's homes. They were on every cable system. That's how TV used to work.

That is broken, right? Cord cutting is all over the place. People aren't even using over there.

And ten is anymore that they just not how works. And the big distribution is in streaming. Cbs does have some streaming ing in the mix right there.

There is a whole complicated story to be told, what paramount and all that over there. But this seems a little more. It's very complicated.

There's literally the plot of succession is embedded in me just mentioning disney obviously has disney plus. We've got who luu was that where you're looking at like this is Better distribution to a Younger audience. It's more stable. This is the future how people don't watch TV because you IT does sound like I need to make a lucrative TV show is the heart of everything your organization does.

We've mailed that. We have to have the right TV partner, not only for the revenue, but also for the future of the brand and the health of the organza and for the good of the music community. What we do is to try and lift music and music creators.

And how can we do on the wider possible scale is something that i'm always thinking about. But as IT relates to in cbs and they're streaming platform versus abc disney, I just have to say that cbs has been great. We're going to make two more shows with them.

They have a lot of very, very positive aspects of why we bend with them and why we might have consider to go forward. But we also have to look at the future of consumption. We have to look at the future of how people 不让 abroad taking our show。 Where does that need to be seen? How does that need to be seen? These are all considerations that i've been having since I took this role four years ago.

So got a couple more great shows to go with cbs. Looking forward to february second this year. And then after the next show, we'll start to think about what this new deal means.

But up until then, I just you know, your listeners and your viewers know consumptions changing television is changing digital streaming, even social media, how that all plays into how people are consuming content. Those are all things as as you can imagine or top of mind. When we started thinking about how we're going to move forward over the next ten years.

when I tell to the CEO of streaming platforms or other kinds of video platforms, the idea that the big catalogue is as valuable as things that are alive comes up over over again. You can see IT right now in the battles over how much to pay for sports rights. Ferocious battles, because people will tune in the sports and they will, they will make appointment to watch your service, to watch us, to watch sports.

The word shows are right up there in the mix, right? People will watch the word shows, but the watches need something a little different than sports, like they need some prestige. They need some institutional heft. And IT feels like putting the grammar on on youtube is just not as fancy as being anywhere near abc and disney. Maybe even putting the rains on nefer x is not as fancy as being somewhere near disney and abc to that factor .

into your decision making. Yeah and all did. The half, as you call the, was important that the gravitas s behind the award and words consumed how people are gonna watch, still something unique and special about network television, to allow the consumers to other sets of consumers. They really couldn't care less about that. So there is a baLance where fine line that I wanted to make sure we walked and with any partner that we we join forces with.

But when you push on that just little bit because there is attention there, the biggest distribution you could have is youtube. Everybody has IT maybe don't even have a choice have that anymore. It's just there.

Youtube is just there. Everybody has IT. If you want to the biggest reach for your work show, you would just put IT on youtube. I wouldn't give you as much revenue and I wouldn't give you as much brand halo versus disney, which is disney. Is that an actual trade off you made? I can get more audience on youtube, but I get more brand halo and perhaps revenue from disney.

They are all trade off to take the truth. And that's the baLance is the juggle that we have to do. How do we reach the most consumers of viewers so that we can montibus the show? But also how do we showcase and lift artist of the most people see him?

Ah so IT is IT is a finally if the finally navigated line between those two things and there's a lot of other considerations as well, the history of the brand shine, accessibility, different territories around the world where there's a presence or focus for us. So there were a lot of factors that went into the capital of deciding where's the right home for us. So hopefully, we feel like we made a good choice. But I guess we will see .

in the next ten years. Yeah, when you think about moving to more internet native distribution as just a bunch of other stuff you can do, you can make IT more interactive. You could cut up in different pieces. Is that stuff you're thinking about to reinvent the concept of an wardship in that way.

thousand percent. We know consumers are changing the way there. They're consuming and their habits are evolving at all time. So we're always going to try and beyond cutting edge of that, but again, balancing that with making sure we're show casing different owners of music. And it's not just all one genre.

You're not just seeing only a certain group of creators and also making sure that we are honoring the tradition in the history of the brand so that along with trying to innovate, trying to make sure we're meeting viewers where they are and matching their habits with what we're creating or producing is something again, this step is not easy. None of IT is is straight forward. And if I were to assume the role or taking the rains in the organization is that we're going to do the same thing.

We're going to march straight head, we're going to keep making the same show. I think that would have been the easier out for sure. But we're not doing that.

We're looking at everything, every part of our experience that we part of our show, every part of how we serve our members, how we produce to show, maybe i've seen over the last few years, even how we seat our artists, how we seat the music community, how we celebrate them, how we lift them the tone. And you know, we produce a in a loving way. And I know that sounds crazy, but we produce in a way that brings people together, that tries to. Have come rotary or, or collaboration between our community. And I think that means something to the view or so whether that means that three hour show, three and four hour show going forward or shorter versions or clips, we can be looking at all that.

doing a lot and do things over the coming years. Question of television imposes the kind of discipline on TV production, whether it's we're going to a have thirty minutes IT comes. And instead of you know, sort of like endless, you can look at your phone streaming shows or whether it's boy, this, a warshow has gone on for a long time and it's time to rap IT up.

There is a discipline that was imposed by the distribution. Streaming just doesn't have that. You really could have ten grammy award shows a year. You could have a all day long gram award show share people, highlights later. But the companies in the discipline of this is a show what IT begins and ends that lends some tension to IT, lends some mistakes to IT. I know you're saying that kind of open and you're thinking about IT, but that seems as important to preserve .

me like you are a smart guy. You're asking me all the questions that I asked myself and i'm going to come to you to work with me you know how to think about this stuff. But IT is really, really top of mind for me and for our team as to how do we continue to be relevant.

Because if you do the same thing over over again, it's not cool. It's just not no one's gna take IT, no one's going to be excited about IT. So the hard part of IT is, is and I hate to be again, super basic about IT, but is revenue making sure we're balancing being forward looking, picking about what's next, how people are consuming with how can we continue to monetize the brand and the show, again, not because we want to make profit.

That's not the motivation. The agenda is to generate more revenue so that we can push that back into the industry, back into the community. For us, it's about the health and uplifting of music. I mean, this stuff is important. Music is so dying important, especially right now, maybe more than ever, with the way the countries is gone on the worlds gone with so many desperate ideas and opinions.

But i've seen IT when I travel, when I see other parts of the world listening to music and listening to artists, we might have a crazy disagreement, but when the music comes on, everybody's like dancing, clap and and singing and IT just opens up people's minds in their eyes. And so because of the power of music, and because of my belief and the account belief in the power music, we didn't do everything we can to try and make sure that we're supporting IT. We're lifting IT up or showcasing and given a chance to do what he does. And if that means shorting the show will do that, if that means likely to show more artist, less artist, different genres, more voters, we're going to continue doing that work to change and evolve every day so that we can keep doing what we need to do to left music people.

We have taken over a quick break. We will be back in a minute.

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Well, mac, i'm talking with Harry min, junior C E O of the recording academy, about the absolute biggest elephant in the room right now, the disruptive potential of general .

I on the music industry.

Let's sockwell what's what's going on with music and and where the money comes from in this industry because that seems under a lot of pressure as well. And IT doesn't seem like anyone knows the answer, which is why like paying so much attention to the music industry. We went through the naster revolution.

We're at what feels like a plata in streaming. Everyone has more discreet ing that we understand how the economics work. That seems stable for a minute.

ops. Here comes A I and that might up and everything. Once again, there's a lot of work in A I in music, right? And now there's a lot of controversy.

There's some pretty good distracts made with A I last year razor media s gr kochi came on decoder and he said A I is on a collision course, the music industry and he is buying catalogues lesser right? But she's she's doing IT and she's this is a live course. You last year said music with AI generated elements would be grammy eligible, right? So this is an important checkmark.

Okay, we're going to allow some of this in here. Where do you think we are right now where we've gone through b bl drizzle, we've gone through some other generated beats. There's a handful of pieces of legislation maybe that we should talk about, but where do you think the state of players right now.

the state of play is so much uncertainty? And i'm concerned because A I as IT relates to human creativity, scares me to I know IT has a lot of power and potential and hands and and amplify human creativity. But right now, we don't have guard drill in place.

We don't have any systems, processes set up so that human creators can be protected. So the state of players is like we got to get to work as an industry. And I know a lot of the smartest people are investing in AI, which I totally understand, because this is so powerful and is so is so much potential.

But for me, as a musician, as someone who also represents twenty five thousand members and music people from around the world, I want to make sure human creativity protect that. If, for all the reason that I just said, the importance of music and the ability for us to tell stories and change hearts and minds, I think the human component to that is really, really dying important. So a little nervous that we haven't got IT sort of out, but i'm also optimisti C2Be hon estly lik e, because human creators are not like computers.

You, we, we take the chaos and the uncertainty in life and the stuff that that AI hates, and we make incredible art prompt. And we are able to dig down deep and like some of our most creative spaces, and pull out the next amazing thing and make great art that don't think any computers gna matter on that as much as we're nervous and we worry about. I don't think you can tell me that A, I can create souls in the key life, or never mind, or IT matic, you know, I don't see that happening.

So I want to make sure we're able to use A I, and i'm not a AI hater. I think it's got great potential i've been using for eight or or nine years in different forms. I've always been early adopted a new tech.

So with IT, I get IT. But we have to make sure human creativity protected and we have a chance to you know, make sure we're reminded properly, we have proper approvals and make sure it's credited properly. These are the things that are really important to me.

So I look at the industry now. There I am about bb l jersey. I think that beat was made with uo, which is one of the AI sung generation tools idio, and then its competition. Now we're sued by a bunch of record labels because they just adjusted a vast catalogue of music in order to build those tools and train on that seems like a comment that's going to hit the earth, right? That that loss will get resolved one or the other, and and will all live inside that framework.

Why let the people using those tools when no one knows how the money works? Or even if the appropriate illegal, be eligible for grammies? Now, before the industry is sorted out, the morality economics of .

these tools, same way that we let music could have stamp es be chargeable, or we let music that has sympathizers or art or protons ls be eligible. It's a technology, an evolution, that is allowed people to do more, create differently, think differently, make sounds, we never before. So for us to draw line in the sand and say, if you use artificial intelligence, you are ineligible, would be, I think, short sited.

And I think you would also cut down on all a lot of the music that's being created and submitted. Also, where would you draw the line? I mean, there's AI and so much of the software we use now or even analyzing and doing mixes, sound design, not even just a general of AI, is making music.

But the final point is that will allow AI to be utilized, but we're not going to honor AI in a sense that if A I is performing a song is in our rules, we will not give the performance in a word, if a eyes writing the song, we will not give an award for the song writing component. So if, for example, if you rote a song, IT was a beautiful composition, is the best liar, best music, best core progression. And you had A I saying IT, you can submit it's not going to win for singing.

IT could win for song writing. And conversely, if you had A, I just write a song, a great song, but some vocs saying IT or wrapped on IT and they perform the heck out IT, i'm not going to finalize the human creativity that went into that. So i'm not going to give an award for the sorry, but I will give him an award for the performance. And that's the where rules are currently. I'm sure it's going to change this step is movement so quickly, but for now, that's how the economies moving.

You are a song writer and confident that some of your work is in some of these training database. How do you feel about that?

I believe there needs to be an understanding of what these models are training on and not sure exactly to what level that will come down, whether there's compensation, payment or crediting. But I do think something has to change. And I don't believe that people's personally copy written material should just be use or access by everyone to do anything they want with.

So we have to come to bottle. I understand this fairly, train moils out licensing groups of music or catalogues to train a ion. And I think that's a good place to start with is a lot to talk about this one whole another show that we could die in a little deeper into.

Yeah, I mean, i'm just looking in your list of credits. I mean, you've got destiny child, you've got Britney spears. It's all it's all in here. Do you think that that such be compensated if sono media were using IT to train their mills?

It's a it's a complicated subject. So I think there is .

some some real .

like some real talks that need to happen around that should not be compensated on the training side, at least we need to know what it's training on, how much of us being used. So there's a lot of new answer that question.

by the way, for the listener, you should just go look at heart is working media page because I named two out of like five hundred brand name artist that you is an incredible is actually just been asking about that the whole time. The way that you would solve this problem economically in the framework of the law that we have right now as you would assign ownership to something like your voice or the way you sound or your lightness.

The recording academy, uh, was in support of a bill that passed in tennessee called the elva sac, which is a great name that adds voices to like these protections. I by read some of the coverage in that bill and IT says, hey, there's no car out in here for Elvis impersonators, right? We're going to solve the A I problem.

And we might have just made event personators illegal in tennessee. How do you see that baLance? That's tough.

There is no perfect solution or magic bullet, tiny stuff, especially to speed at which is moving. We are really proud of legislations been introduced in past in a couple of different states, but now we're pushing for federal legislation with no fax, no problem in the house, in the senate.

It's got but it's dangerous to make all this person is federally legal.

not the intention. You know, that's not.

I know, but how do you how would you write that law to say a robot can sound like obvious, but this guy can but again.

there is a lot of new once there's no perfect bill. None of these bits are exact. Everyone is trying to compensate and accommodate the needs of a lot of people that have concerns and fears.

Of course, we don't want to prevent someone from impermanent Elvis, but we do want to prevent people from impersonating artists, singers and using their voice without any form of payment or approval. Uh, or the right crediting. And these bills are starts.

I'm sure they'll be revised. I'm sure we'll be new bills, new things and acted. But right now we've got bad parties and by camel support. And there needs to be some legislation that supports and protects human creativity, human artistry. Self trust is the first step.

But even those two things you said, right, we don't want to stop over some personal where we don't want people to use artist voices without compensation yeah I mean, the obvious person just have to pay like just that, that little basic thing. Don't use my voice to. That in personation does IT matter to you whether it's AI or whether it's an obvious personator.

or does but also laws protect certain usage of other people's voice, even if it's not a human doing, you can pretend to be an artist and then go monetized that in certain ways. So there's laws in the book to arty prevent that from happening .

is the money moves around in the music industry. We've tried to solve that problem in different ways. So streaming rates went down, and now we all are you about strong writing credits to make sure some of the pennies come back to the original artists because the stream and paying those artists, i'll give you an example only just because Olivia, after he goes, gets tour movie, just hit netflix.

So I saw bunch coverage this again. Taylor swift came, took a credit on daja controversial. I'm playing with fire now the two fenders are to come for me. But that's the thing that happened is very controversial.

And then Alice cosla, who is one of my favorite artist ages ago, came out and said, okay, it's I agree that Olivia and brutal sounds a lot like pumped up. And then his quote was, this is fine by me. That's how rockin role works.

You take the broken pieces of another thrill and make a branny toy. That's what I did. I did not find any reason ago for them legally for that because I think you would be lutches.

Other people clearly felt differently about songs on that record. So we've now created a scenario where it's like the artist choice, whether they go after other artists for using things like cord progressions or loud bridges. Like how do you see that resolving in the world of A I like it's already chaos without AI. And now we're using A I tools. We're saying the answer to AI is to create more ownership of things like voices and core progressions and sounds.

It's all gone to continue to be a mess until we did sorry out because, yes, it's difficult .

that the way I just say that is one of the most candid answers that .

question were I think that's the best I can give you because as you said, certain artists tend to claim ownership differently than others. Also, artists sometimes have publishers or record companies that own pieces of their catoche that tend to be more aggressive than some artists might naturally be.

But as he started introducing A I, unless we can understand where it's coming from, what it's replicating or learning from and trying to simulate, it's going to really dying hard to figure out where the money needs to go, how the money can flow, or tell you one story. I met with the head of the copyright of shoes, an amazing woman, and he came to my studio actually, and we started pulling up some of the generate AI platforms. And I was showing how IT worked as describe eight months ago, he hadn't really been exposed about.

And I typed in a few words, and we made IT a track, a song, and I said, is that copyright was, he does not. It's not. Has have human interaction or human involvement.

I said, why typed in the problem? Is I going to hurry? That's not, that's not enough.

So I took the same track and I typed response. I said, will change the key, change the tempo and change these three lyrics. And I sent him back to the platform and sent back a new science.

And that was that cop right? Table SHE says, now it's getting close about all think it's enough. So I did another problem.

So I did three rounds of prompts, came back at a slightly different song. And SHE, is that okay? I think that's right. I think that's human interaction. So none of this is figured out. You know, the head of the copyright office, who I thought was amazing and incredible, and I love the fact that he was interesting, cared enough to come to my studio. But the fact that we don't have an understanding of how this moves forward and how we protect creators, whether that's and the song, right, as you mentioned or people that just had catalogues for twenty years ago, we're not going to have good cleaning answers until we get those understandings.

But those understands come from litigation, right? I mean, that's we're going to go fight this, that someone is going to see the copyright at office, some one to one artist to see another, the way to see the forms, if we can advocate .

properly and loudly enough, even within the tech platforms throughout the label, s and publishers, journalists and pod test host, we can talk about this enough, come to an understanding of how this needs to function, confusing. And that might be we can start to manage some of the internally know, some same things happen when we started happening. Other people's records had a butcher hit records and include other people's samples.

That right course, we kind of figured out how I needed to be treated and handle something, was streaming this thing that people putting music all over the internet on stream services. And we've gotten to a place where we're slightly Better still work to do there. I believe we'll come to some solutions around A I. And how we can all equally or equitably participate in the revenue.

can actually make the comparison that to sampling and how that played out because you lived IT very directly. I watched IT as a Young copyright lawyer, and IT seemed like the thing that got us through that was this is a pretty close decoy stem. There's only so many producers, there's only so many labels and the number of label s is just getting smaller.

There's only so many clearing houses and there's just really fundamentally only so many artists that are gonna to clear sample, right, agers, managers and layers. So all those people could talk, right, and you can say, clear the sample or right, or in the case of some very famous songs, forget. And then someone could show up, which has happened more times and not right. But it's a close decoy stem.

very different.

you're right. And A I is just a massive open ecosystem and at the top of IT is marked as oker bird.

And to ark, try a google and sam altman en, who just don't seem to give a shit right like a year some lawyer for some artists and he tried to roll up on sam altman in he's look, I still scarlets Johnson's voice, like, what are you going to do to me? Is that, is that going to play out the same way as I going to be mess here? Because IT seems like there no one has any leverage ure of these companies.

I'm sure to be messy because IT is such a wider reaching issue. But I do think there is a way maybe i'm very optimistic and rose color glasses, but I think people realize the importance of music, maybe bordered the importance of art and AI has an impact across all the different disciplines of artistry.

And if we can continue to emphasize the value and the importance of IT and point out that this has a potential to really be harmful to IT, I have to believe in my human heart that anybody would want that to be addressed and would want to come up with a solution that made sense, whether it's the guys you mentioned or your heads of other companies. I just think there's a way to do IT. I know everybody y's trying to do their build their companies, make a value for their investors and shareholder.

And there is a lot of levels to this. At the base is music. Man IT is music. We can't have wild, wild west around copyright and ownership and intellectual property protections.

Stuff needs to be done properly so that we can continue to tell these stories to to have these emotions and in the heart and soul behind these songs. Otherwise, what what are we doing? We're just going to have the computer make everything. Now you look at A I for other things that are .

about the same moment.

because I might be the answer I am hoping to, but I, I have to. But he has a favorite artist. I know he does.

He has a ban. He grew up listening to his whole life in his bedroom while he was program in some computer. He loves somebody, or he's read a book that matter in a resolve piece of art that moved him.

Everybody has one, may not everybody with most people. So all that to say, I believe in human creativity. I believe in A I in the power that he has in hands and amplified man creativity. And there's a way that they can go exist. I believe a .

theme of this conversation for me is detention you have between your members or professional musicians in part of that community, and the audience of consumers and fans. Whenever we write about AI, the parts of our audience that our professional creatives are furious. I'm pretty sure that we got more responses to my interview with the city over dobe.

They basically add IT up to you should have arrested him any other episode to go to we've ever done because people are just mad. There's general a day I in photoshop. What do your members say about this? Is are they as upset or they they as furious?

Our members are split. There's a lot of members that say AI as the devil don't be lived in the house. And they are fearful, rightly so.

And there's another group of our members that are really excited about the power, the potential of A I. And they're all in they're creating using IT. They're doing everything they can using A I. And neither song outside is wrong. And again, the beauty of of music were arked or creativity everybody creates differently.

So my role is a difficult one, is to try and serve our membership and our music community fairly and in a way that allows for a bright future for our creators, whether that's using A I or whether that's limiting AI or making sure there's guidelines around AI, it's to be determined. But my focus, when I wake up as the make sure our human creativity is healthy, allowed to enter. And we continue to make a living.

We have a the whole group of people who make their money, they are living, they pay their written take care of kids by creating art. And we have another generation is coming up that wants to do the same thing because they know how we express ourselves. We know how music can sometimes heal and unite.

E people, sometimes people be, as I was always on a planet the day, and there is a woman sitting next to me, two couple seats over on a laptop to use crying. I thought SHE was like typing a letter to somebody. SHE was programing in logic on her keyboard crying, this is therapy.

This is, uh, expression. This is a human emotion. And so I want to make sure that we're realizing that and we're realizing, yes, A I is a part of that. How can I be integrated in a way it's responsible and reasonable?

Yeah well, how they get you go but I can't let you go that asking one question i'm dying. Ask you whole time who was a Young artist on to come up that people should be paying attention to because I know you have a full view. This industry I do.

I have a view of some of the cools and best new artist and music. It's one of my favorite parts of the job is getting to meet these craters. But i'm onna ruin the question because IT would be irresponsible with me to tell you who the next person, whether is somebody that I love, because there is just so many and I don't want I don't want you to see as if it's an academy endorsement.

But I will say this, I think there is more new creators making music, making great r than in the history of music because of the access, because of the technology, because of the Young woman I saw the plane programing on a laptop like this, because of the fact that you can put music out without gatekeepers, without barriers to entry. Um you know the amount of songs that is being created in a release, it's astronomic and it's prolific. And so I will say to your question, there is a great new artist hip hop.

I've now heard a new crop of incredible rock bands, which I think we've had a little of a shorge. I put obviously that the move into country in the popularity, there are some great new artist. I love how you're seeing joan bending artist creating different types of music in those generals. Jazz is a revert around jazz. And I love and i'm really excited about so I mean, I don't like you kick out all down on music and new music, but this is a topic that I I love to talk about, great music, great new artists, how we're going to celebrate that.

I did my best. That was the hardest question. I think I should say for the end, we are going have to find you when I have to talk about music some other time just right now.

Thank you. I ve.

I'd like to think harve main junior for taking the time to join me on decoder. And thank you for listening and hope you enjoy that. You would like to, let's know, thought about the subsidy, really anything else.

Drop this line. You can email us a decoder at the verge com. We really do read all the emails as many of you have discovered recently. You can also say me up on threads and that reckless trovo and we have a tiktok check in out a decoder pod is a lot of fun. You like decoder, please share with your friends and subscribe over your podcast the colors impression, the verge in part of the boxing, the podcast network. Our producers are k cox, nick, that our editor is Kelly, right? Supervising producers in James, the decoder music is my break mater sooner we will see next time.

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