Can Singapore cinemas survive the onslaught of streaming services?
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You're listening to a CNA Podcast. Hello everyone, welcome back to the Deep Dive Podcast. Hi Steve. Hello. How have you been? It's been good. Good? When you lead in like that and like a question is coming, I know I can feel it already. Yes, the question is, when was the last time you saw a movie in a theatre? Oh, like at the cinema? Yes. Eons, I think like pre-COVID times.

Pre-COVID? No idea what I watch. So where do you watch your movies? Just at home. Some streaming service. You know, I've got a big enough TV at home. Okay. In the comfort of my own home. It's good enough for me. So you got movie nights but only at home? Don't pay for tickets? It's more the hassle of going out and usually it's like a Friday night and I think of the crowds. Well, I'm like, go for what? That's my question. Oh my. What value add do they have to my movie experience? Okay.

You know what? I make it a point to go to the cinema. Especially if it's a movie that's hugely anticipated. Okay, so the last one you saw was... Conclave. Okay. Highly recommend it. I feel that the cinema experience is special and that's what resonated with me with the speech that Sean Baker, the Best Director winner at the Oscars, just recently gave. He said that in the darkened theatre, you laugh, you cry, you scream with random strangers, right? It's a common experience.

And come on, when you're dating, Steve, you gotta have the experience of watching a movie. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Okay, fair enough. That one I did, yeah. You did, right? I mean, because at that time, there were no streaming services, you know. And the cinema was one of those places you can practice that yawn and stretch your arm out behind the girl. Exactly. But you know what? I laugh and cry at home too when I watch the movies, so...

I don't need to be in the cinema. And I think that's the question here. The cinemas are really struggling today, right? Yeah, because of people like you. Okay, quick recap. Cathay Cineplex was the latest to run into financial trouble. It shut down one of its outlets last year. Ingwas, WE Cinemas also seized operations. They had been around for 80 years and they sold it off.

Shaw Theatres has closed its outlet at Selita Mall after 10 years of operation. That's bad. So what's happening, right? Why are fewer Singaporeans watching movies in the cinemas? And what can be done to bring them back?

To help us unpack this, we have Ben Slater, writer, editor and senior lecturer at NTU School of Art, Design and Media. Hi, Ben. Hello, hello. And Karen Tan, co-founder of independent cinema operator, The Projector. Hi there. Thanks for having me. Let's start with the numbers. Numbers are showing that cinema attendance has actually been declining. People have been

resuming other activities after COVID, you know, things like traveling, going to concerts, those are the things. But what's different about going to the cinema? Why hasn't that come back? Let's talk about number of tickets sold a year, for example. So in 2018 and 19 thereabouts, good sample of pre-COVID, we were looking at, I think, about 19 to 21. So say about average 20 million tickets sold a year. Right.

What are we getting now? 2023, which is the latest stats from IMDA. We are looking at about 10 million tickets all the year. So that's a clear halving. 2024, I think when on speaking to the other operators, they kind of largely experienced the further drop from 2023. So there's a bit of a trend there. But why do you think this is happening? Ever since COVID and that people have been back out going for concerts, events, why not the cinema? Yeah, there's a fair amount of revenge spending and revenge partying going on.

Fundamentally, there's the rise of streaming. Consumer behavior patterns have changed.

The consumption of film is now, people don't just consume it on large screen anymore. They consume it on small screens. And also from the comfort of the home. Like you, Steve. And there's also a lot more to choose from. The streamers have also kind of upped their budget in terms of content production. Absolutely. It's a shame because some of the stuff that's been produced would look fantastic on large screen. But they don't actually get consumed on large screen. So they look fantastic on a large screen, but at home they just look good. Yes, absolutely.

So in a way, it's good enough. I enjoy my movies, but I don't need it to sound like amazing. I'm not that kind of guy, you know. But there is a key factor in the movie-going experience that you're missing out on, which is the communal experience. Okay, you gotta tell me that because it is because of the communal experience that I stay home. Well, that may be telling us a lot about your personality. Yes, it does. He has a problem.

with the dirty seats. I'm an extrovert. I love socializing, but thousands of people have sat in the seat. I go there and one of the guys next to me is talking all the time throughout the movie going, oh, did you see? What happened there? What happened in that part? There is something really wonderful about everybody being together and sharing a film, right? And that could be something incredibly emotional. That could be something really scary. It could be something terrifically intense. So you mean like when you laugh and everyone laughs at the same time. Exactly.

Or even just that feeling when everyone goes completely quiet because something really incredible happens on screen. We're talking about the Oscars and the end of Enora, which is the film that won the Best Picture, that has an incredible, quiet,

ending which is absolutely devastating and I think you wouldn't feel that emotional state if you just watched it at home and you were pausing for your pee breaks and grabbing your wine or your beer but once you're all there in that room and you're all sharing something together you're going through this experience together I think that's really

an amazing experience. But the competitor is formidable, right? Your Netflix and your Disney. Sure. I do want to offer one tiny bit of historical perspective, which is that actually this sort of up and down cycle in cinema attendance is not new. And it's not new internationally. It's also not new in Singapore. Singapore movie-going attendance is

has always traditionally been very, very high. There's a big audience there and the density of population, the amount of cinemas. So it kind of reached a peak in the late 70s. And then with home video, it kind of went down. And in the 80s, people were having the same conversations. Cinemas going, places were closing down. But in this case, I think it's here to stay because in the past, we went to the cinemas because we couldn't get the movies anywhere else.

Now some of the movies go direct to streaming services. They don't even make it to the cinemas. So again, I am spoilt for choice as a home viewer. I don't need the cinema. So the ecosystem is changing is what we're seeing. Well, the ecosystem is changing. One can also argue that there is a place for cinema going and will continue to do so because it's also a social experience. But you can't

replicate at home on your laptop. Yeah, you go with someone, you spend five minutes talking to them, the movie starts, you're like, okay, no talking. And then for two hours, you sit in silence. Here's the thing. That's the typical Singapore movie-going experience. You arrive, maybe two minutes before it starts, because you want to skip all the ads. You go in, you watch the thing, you get ejected into some soulless, fluorescently lit facilities corridor, and you go home. That's right. That's the typical Singapore. Exactly.

That's exactly right. However, however. Put you down the emergency staircase to exit, not even the lobby. However, it doesn't have to be that way. Which is why at The Projector, we look at what we're creating. Our product's not film. Our product is an experience and a social experience. So typically people come about half an hour before, they get great food and drink, and then they make their way into the theatre and ask.

After that, they hang out at the bar. Talk about the show. Yeah, and unpack that. And they unpack it with their friends, you know, and they have a night out. So it's a whole social experience that you can't have at home. That's unique to what the projector is doing. For the typical cinema in Singapore, they still don't do that. They could learn some things from the projector.

I think the commercial cinemas, like we're hearing from Cathay and MM2, they're kind of like closing down and they're saying, please come to our cinemas. Remember the past. Remember how great Cathay used to be. But they can also be changing up their offering. I mean, food in commercial cinemas is terrible, right? It's overpriced. It's bland. It's not progressed anywhere for 20 years. Whereas the projector, there's like really, really good food. That's one thing, the whole experience of it. But

Do you need to have more bells and whistles? I'm thinking if I go to cinema, it's because I can't get this experience at home, where it's maybe like virtual reality. I'm thrown into the movie. I'm in the Jeep driving with the guys. I can smell the jungle air. Oh, that's what you want from the cinema. He's talking about the whole 4D cinema experience thing. It's something you cannot replicate anywhere else. Therefore, it's a destination that I visit because I know that experience will be uniquely different. There's been a long tradition as cinema experts

traditionally has competed with other things like television and home video. They've always tried to add in these bells and whistles. So we had IMAX and we've got the 4DX sound and all that kind of stuff. But at some point, those are novelties. You remember 3D? You remember Avatar?

Everyone thought that that was going to be the norm. You know, the all big blockbuster movies would be in this 3D format and you'd pay more. It was a more expensive ticket. And that kind of went away because they're fun, but they are novelties. But the core experience of sharing the movie emotionally with other people and being around other people, that doesn't go away. And I think when people like it, they will keep coming back.

So with the projector, there is definitely a core audience that keep coming and really like what you offer. And that used to be the case with commercial cinemas in Singapore. You know, I remember at the weekends, even in the early 2000s and later, on Orchard Road, every screen was pretty much full on Saturday night because people would go out, they would drink lots of coffee and ice blended drinks. Yeah.

With their friends. And these are young people. And then they would go up and watch the late movies. And there was a real buzz to that. And it was partly a social thing, but it was also, it's an artistic thing. You're getting to see really good films as well. Yeah. Okay. But I want to come back to the business model, Karen, for the projector. What have you learned running this business, right? Movies and making it more than just coming in, watching a movie and getting out.

What have you learned in the process that it can be done? Can it be reversed? Can I be a bit more blunt? Go for it. How are you guys doing financially? Are you finding that to make it work, just to break even is a tough sell? It's hard at the moment. You've got to work like three times as hard to earn what you used to. That's for sure. Forget about just the cinema landscape in general. I think a lot of businesses are suffering from post-COVID inflation. We talk about rent is primarily one of the biggest contributors to cost. Right, of course.

That hasn't come down. In fact, that's actually... How much does the ticket cost at the projector? At the moment, on the weekend, 16. Okay. And that's about the same at regular cinemas, right? Yeah, regular cinemas. So cost is one of the things. If you have a family, it adds up, right? But cinemas are space-dependent.

And we know that in Singapore, space means rent. And pretty much you have to eat rent. They're actually one commercial tenant that has the largest footprint. It's different if you're running a cafe. So rent plays a big part. Now we've got manpower costs on the rise as well. Utilities costs, you name it. How long is a piece of string? Lots of challenges is what I'm saying, especially if you're an SME in the Singapore market. So that's your challenge in terms of the costs.

But for the home viewer, you know, they're thinking $16 for a ticket, $16 for a monthly subscription. I can watch like multiple shows. Sure. And I do see that actually it's a competition for people's time and attention. You know, with the rise of social media, doom scrolling, binge watching, we've all been there, done that. It's kind of like normal practice now.

But I do see that there's still a place for people who want to go out. People still do want to go out. You spend half your time on your screens, you have your time, you're working from home. Right. You want a social experience. And that is then available for you at the cinema. Okay. You know, and so I don't think that need is a basic human need. I don't think that's going away anytime soon. Mm-hmm.

I think the streaming thing has been a bit exaggerated, but that's really totally changed. You talk about $16. People used to pay like $50, $60 for their Starhub subscription. Right, right. And mostly what people are streaming is TV shows, right? But they're streaming the latest series of something. There are movies on streaming, but it's not really a primary offering. If you think about the big Oscar films this year that were nominated for the big prizes...

Most of them aren't streaming. They're not on streaming, yeah. And so if you want to be up to date with that conversation, you have to go and see them in the cinema. And thankfully, that's still the case. They're still protecting those films and making sure that they are in the big screen, which is what the filmmakers want. So I guess when she mentioned a few names of the Oscars and these winners, I'd never heard of the movies. I've not been following and keeping up. So until it arrives here in Singapore Shores or at a cinema, then I'll go, oh, Conclave, let me Google that. What is that about? Hmm.

And I didn't watch the Oscars. I mean, it's kind of fun, you know, I'll read up some news. But I got to think that I represent at least...

a certain percentage of the population who is not in the know when it comes to the scene. Not clued in to movies. So to them, they're saying, what's the big deal? People might be coming out less, but I do think, let's say going to the cinema is now a bit more of a destination, an event. It's an occasion thing. Which means that if you're not doing it that often, you're then therefore also prepared to spend more, you know, if it's an occasion. So from the operator point of view, they have to think through a few of these things, right? It's not just the movie you're screening. It could be even

type of films, right? For the GVs and the Shaws of the world, it's all your Marvel movies and all your big blockbusters. But there's scope for independent niche films like The Projector has shown. Do you think that that's kind of the way to go as well to broaden the reach? I don't think that's going to be a silver bullet because by definition, it is indie. So it's not mass market. But

What we've seen over the last 10 years is that there's an increase in interest for non-mainstream content. In part, it's also audience education on our part. But increasingly, people are quite curious-minded about watching something that they've never heard of before. Yeah.

That's actually a heartening trend for us in that niche independent market. Ironically, because Singapore is so small, sometimes the question is, what shall we do this weekend? People are stuck for like what to do. So something novel, interesting, projected, says, oh, there's a movie about, and you're like, oh. Yeah, you have festivals, right? So the other thing that we do quite a lot is we, for lack of a better term, we eventize films. So, for example, what we like to do is to have like a director's Q&A after, for example. Okay.

You know, he could zoom in from wherever he is in the world and speak to the audience and answer questions about the film. Or, for example, if we're showing a film about cats, we pair it up with the Cat Welfare Society and do a fundraiser and things like that. And they do a cat adoption drive and you have kittens in the foyer. Right, right. So it becomes a much larger experience than just coming in and just watching a film and leaving. Yeah. And hopefully it's also thought provoking as well. Yeah.

I also want to say something about you showing older films. Yes. Because I teach students, I teach younger people. And I think they're really aware that now more than ever that like watching an old film, a classic old film on their phone or the iPad or the laptop, they're not really getting the full experience.

And so to be able to go and watch classic old movies... The Kurosawa retrospective that we did earlier this year. I was thinking of that because I went to see Seven Samurai. Yes. And it was on a Saturday afternoon. It was pretty full at CineLedger. Three hours long or three and a half. And it was people there with their families, obviously older people bringing their older kids. Not small kids, but maybe their teenage son and daughter saying, hey, you should watch this film. It's really good. And again, back to...

back to the communal sense of enjoying the film. That's a really special thing. And those films aren't on streaming. To get to see those older titles and they're well curated and they're interesting selections, sometimes not always the ones you expect, is a really beautiful opportunity. But do you think the audience has also changed and that the kind of guys like you, Ben? I'm in a very much a minority. Yeah. I mean...

For instance, there used to be the Singapore Film Festival. I remember when I was much younger. Used to be. They're still going. Okay, so I haven't been in many years. I can't help it because I've been and saw a few movies. He used to go for the Singapore Film Festival. Did you watch a lot of stuff? I did watch quite a lot of stuff. But then after a while, it got really painful because I sat through some movies that I thought were so agonising.

Because they were artsy. Some guy riding a motorbike up and down a slope, it keeps stalling. And he does it for like three minutes. I think I've seen that film. So I'm like, okay, I can't take this. So as I got older, my taste also changed. And now Singapore, we're always so rushing about. Time is precious. So you're thinking, if I want to get some entertainment, I want to just go and watch a mindless movie and leave going, ha ha, what was it about? I don't remember, but I had a good time. But film is art as well, right?

Yeah, so it can be for both. It can be both experiences. But the challenge is, I think, for more people, they'd be a bit more like me than you, unfortunately, right? That is also partly to do with the education aspect, right? Of making sure people are aware that all of these different experiences are at the cinema. And it's not always just about seeing, like, a really difficult arthouse movie. You know, people that like those also like going to see big commercial films. Exactly.

And things like horror movies, which work really well in the big screen. You can't have that experience at home of being in a big crowd watching a horror movie. So how would you try and convince people who are listening in saying, give me a reason to go to the cinema today? I think we gave you about 10 reasons already. Well, I'm sorry. You haven't convinced me yet. You are hard to convince, Steve. What about your students, the ones that you teach? I mean...

would they go to the cinema? A lot of the students I teach are film media students, right? And I actually think the interest is more than it used to be. Yeah.

And I think there's a curiosity about film that's actually growing and an awareness that it's an art form and it's not just about entertainment. You were mentioning the festival. In the past, really, you had to wait for the festival to come round before you could see. And there was a frenzy of buying tickets and then rushing around. And that scarcity created a buzz around the festival, which was great. But of course, it's better that there are venues offering that year round.

And I think the students definitely are a lot more open-minded. And because they've grown up with the devices and they've grown up being able to download everything, they are aware that seeing something on the big screen is a bit of a special experience. And they are drawn to it. The thing is to build on that.

It's to market to them. It's to sustain that and develop that and make sure that we kind of keep that going. That's right. But from a business point of view, to event-size movie going. It's a lot of work. It's a lot of work. It is a lot of work. It's a lot of money too. Maybe your F&B can cover some of the costs. Because the restaurant is so good, you might just come have a drink instead, right? Now, we've also diversified to non-film content as well. So we do...

stand-up comedy. You have like poetry slams. You have book readings. You have all sorts of things happening as well. Wrestling matches in our bar. There seems to be a lot of parties. Paul dancing competitions. You guys have a lot of parties. We have a lot of parties. You know, dress-up nights. All sorts of things, right? So we've got that. And then we've got the bar. So there's some F&B revenue as well. And the third pillar is actually and something that we've seen pick up is the

what we call venue hire, which is a third party coming in. Like corporates like to hire a venue. Using the space. Yeah, and use the space during the day and during the dead times. So in that respect, then you're kind of saying that the current model of going to the cinema, just showing up, watching, leaving...

It sounds like it's kind of hit a dead end. That experience is always there. I think that's always there. And people just maybe need more reasons to get out of the home. Or maybe it's because we have too many cinemas to begin with. So it's kind of whittling down, but eventually you'll find the number that is enough for the group that still does that. So interesting stat again. Yeah.

Pre-COVID, there was about maybe 270 to 280 screens in Singapore based on IMDA. So you can quote them on that. And then now, I think in 2023, that number hasn't actually changed very much. So if you compare that to the admits, I suppose there would be some right, what they call right sizing to be done. But I also noticed that some of the cinemas rent them out to third parties, right? Like churches, for example, sometimes charity events and

So maybe that's one way they can kind of keep afloat, but still keep the core business of offering movies still. Because it's such an important part of just culture. It is an important part of culture. And a social experience. Yeah. Okay, Ben, last question. When TV first came out, people said that it would kill the film industry. It didn't. No. So same thing.

That's why I say streaming. We're all getting kind of really worried about streaming. I don't think it's that much different, really, than all of these other things that came along. In a way, probably the biggest threat to cinema and a lot of activities is the internet itself. The fact that people are always on and can get so many different kinds of content. I think streaming and Netflix are not that much of a threat to cinema. I mean, the only issue with Netflix was the fact that they would buy up these big movies from film festivals and then not want to release them. Yeah.

In the cinema. Exactly. But I think, you know, one of the things, Sean Baker, director of Enora, he kept on saying, we filmmakers basically have got to stand up and say we want our films in the cinema. And I think as people become more aware of that, we'll see more of that happening. I think he also mentioned, like, deliberately that he would continue to make films

for large screen as well to be consumed on large screen. And that was quite a deliberate intent and call. What about local filmmakers, right? I mean, like Jack Neill's latest film actually did make money. Pretty much all of his films make money. Yeah.

I would also like to point out that one man does not an entire local filmic landscape make. But we've also seen an emergence of more independent filmmakers in Singapore, local filmmakers, in support of the local film ecosystem. We do tend to give them a much longer run than the big boys. Yeah. And

We do actually see interest from the public, you know, to not just consume the film, but also get to know the filmmakers themselves. I do love watching movies. Go to the cinema, Steve! I will go. I will go again to find that experience and see if it still, you know, triggers something in me, makes me go, wow, it's kind of cool to be here, you know. To summarise, guys, any last pitch you would like to say?

I would say, look, I think streaming and social media and all that, that's here to stay. You know, that's not going away. But equally, I think there is a place in one's life and lifestyle to go to the theater and watch a film. Principally, again, because it's a social experience. We're spending half our time inhabiting the digital realm. That's right. Equally, we also need the physical, in real life sort of experiences as well. They're as important.

Now more than ever, actually. People have to start young. I think formative experiences, kids going to the cinema, seeing a film for the first time,

in a cinema, in that space, the atmosphere of that space, you know, the kind of moment when the film begins. It's very exciting. And I think once they get that bug young, it won't go away. It's part of your childhood memories. We're all, even you must be nostalgic about films you saw when you were a kid. Don't answer that. It's okay. I know you're going to say no. So that's one thing. I also think a key thing, marketing is really challenging in this very fragmented world.

Maybe we all remember the days where you used to buy the newspaper, open up, and the double-page spread with all of the listings. Oh, yeah. And that was just a wonderful thing to see it all laid out there. That's gone now. We have to subscribe to various mailing lists and check various websites to find out what's going on. So marketing from all sides of the industry needs to get better and sharper and more targeted so that people know what's going on. So that whole thing needs to get some resources behind it.

Because it isn't just a commercial thing. It is a cultural thing and it is important. On that note, actually, just a segue, it's a cultural thing indeed. I know there's the recent announcement of the Singapore Culture Pass. Yeah, yeah. Right, yes. Can you use it for movies? At the moment, I think not. And so therefore, I would suggest that film is firmly part of culture and should be included in that culture pass. Okay. To whoever's listening, please. Note to government. Yeah.

Have a look at the details. But sure, why not? It should, yeah. I totally agree with you guys because I love watching movies. So you don't have to convince me at all. And Sean Baker also said this. He said, parents, bring your kids to the cinema. Yes, he did. Yes, yes. That wasn't original. Yeah. Yeah.

So thank you guys. Thank you for coming on. Yeah, so that's it for this week's Deep Dive. A big shout out to our team who are of course supporting us all the time. Junani Johari, Tiffany Ang, Sayawin, Joanne Chan and Hanida Amin. And of course, if you have comments or any thoughts, do drop us a note. We do love to hear from you. See you next week. Bye.