Xi in Moscow: what it means for China, Russia, and the shape of tomorrow's world order
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From the late 1930s to 1945, the world was plunged into the darkness of World War II, a time of unprecedented devastation and human suffering.

This week, Chinese President Xi Jinping joined more than 20 world leaders in Russia to mark the 80th anniversary of the Soviet Union's victory in the Great Patriotic War.

During his visit, President Xi and Russian President Vladimir Putin signed a joint statement that included a range of economic and trade agreements, while also reaffirming their shared commitment to the UN Charter and the post-war international order. In this episode of Deep Dive, my colleague Alyosha Milenkova in Moscow offers insight into the significance of President Xi's visit for China, Russia, and the broader international landscape.

Having spent years reporting from the frontlines of conflict, Alyosha also shares his personal reflections on the nature of war and its enduring impact. It's Friday, May 9th. I know you are a veteran reporter and you have been covering current affairs for quite a long time.

What is the main focus this time about President Xi's visit? Were there any standout moments or behind-the-scenes stories that left an impression on you?

Okay, this is, I never thought that the day will come when somebody will tell me that I'm a veteran reporter. But the fact is that I am a veteran. Yeah, you are. It is quite a revelation for me at this moment because I'm over 30 years in this business.

And I just realized when you said those words, I only now realized, oh, yes, I am old. I am covering those events for such a long time. Yeah, you're absolutely correct. But anyway, regarding this particular visit, it is...

We can say quite interesting visit. It was quite interesting visit State visit it was quite interesting holiday here in Moscow For many many years I would even say many decades we didn't had situation like we have now the crisis which really shakes the world and not just shakes but also shapes the new world

very many uncertainties regarding future of the world that are surrounding

So many countries, Russia included, China included, and all those things are now in focus not just of the state visits of President Xi Jinping, but it is also in the minds and the hearts and minds of local people here. They are very interested in what is happening to them, what is happening to their country, and what is happening to their allies.

They consider here China to be one of the most, if not the most important ally of Russia. This is what ordinary Russian people think about China at this moment. And this is something that it is reflected also by the state leadership, particularly when you see the levels and the ways of personal relations between President Xi Jinping and President Vladimir Putin.

you see that there is a personal friendship between those two and that is also quite reflected in

the ordinary people's minds here. And also of course there is a lot of Chinese tourists here in Russia, there is also a lot of Chinese goods here in Russia and this is also considered a very important for Russia and I will, I assume that we will talk about that bit later about the development of Chinese-Russian relations

relations, particularly economic relations, because those are very important for Russia, not just a political relations between the two countries, which are extremely good, but also those economic relations and trade relations. You mentioned a lot about the significance, and maybe we can go deeper later. Regarding Chinese President Xi's visit, I want to know how has Russia received the president this time around? Is there any notable protocols?

Yes, we have seen that Deputy Prime Minister Tatiana Golikova waited for President Xi Jinping at the airport in Vnukovo when he landed a couple of days ago. Some of the leaders who

because there is 29 leaders who arrived in Moscow in the past two days. Some of the leaders were waited at the airport, that greeted at the airport by lower ranking officials from the Russian authorities. And this is something that it is a normal diplomatic procedure. But the Chinese president, Xi Jinping, was greeted also by the

small military parade by the Presidential Guard unit. This was something considered as a show of a friendship and a show of appreciation of the Chinese leader. Then the anthems, national anthems were played by the military orchestra after the Chinese president exited the plane. So the Chinese president was welcomed

in the most dignified manner comparing to every other presidents and leaders who actually arrived to Russia for this event. And this showed from day one, from first moment, it showed how important for Russia this visit is. And after that,

We were witnessing, I was there at the location, at one of the locations in Moscow when President Xi Jinping's motorcade crossed through Moscow. And I've seen hundreds of people waiting for him, waiting for President Xi Jinping. And those were...

mixed Chinese and Russian nationals. They were waving Chinese flags, Russian flags, and it was, I can freely say, many of those people were there waiting for President Xi Jinping for some time just in order to catch a glimpse of him, to catch a glimpse of his motorcade, and to wave at least at the car in which he was. So that clearly shows,

What is the Russian feeling, the feeling of ordinary people here in Moscow about this state visit? Back to the bilateral relationship between China and Russia. As we all know, these two countries share a very close relationship. Here's a background information. Both leaders have met over 40 times in the past decade. So from your perspective, what is the secret to this long-standing partnership?

Exactly what you said is the reason for the two countries to come even closer.

And there was an interesting interview I had a few days ago with one of the political analysts here in Russia who told me, I will try to quote, that what the two leaders are doing now, referring to Chinese President Xi Jinping and President of Russia Vladimir Putin, is that they are working together to lay the foundation for the generations to come, because one day they will be

new generation, new generations, next generations, which will outlive us. So the two leaders are making sure that even those generations who will come will continue the groundwork regarding relations between the two countries and friendship between the two countries to continue that groundwork and to continue to build upon that. And this is something that when you look from the side, this is something that it is absolutely true and absolutely visible.

that they are trying to make sure that the two countries, with them or without them in the picture, that the two countries continue to work together and continue to work in the benefit for both. Because let's not forget, just a few years ago, before the COVID times,

Not because of the COVID, but we are saying before the COVID times, the trade between China and Russia was just around $100 billion. Now, according to latest, I read yesterday, according to latest figures, it's 245 billion. So it increased for two and a half times.

They signed agreement yesterday, one of, I think, around 20 agreements. They signed agreement where they laid the groundwork for the further dramatic, I'm trying to quote, "dramatic expansion on mutual trade by the year of 2030." And this is something that is, when we are talking about the trade relations between the two countries, it is very important for both. On one side, Russia has vast resources.

Energy, uranium, gas, oil, all those energy resources are something that China needs, not just because of its own...

benefits or a lower price. But because of the security of supply, China and Russia share the same border, around, I think, 400 kilometers of mutual border. And no third party can come in between them and prevent Russia delivering China energy sources

coal or whatever else China needs. On the other hand, Russia needs Chinese technology. Russia needs Chinese know-how in many areas of life. And this is something that China is sharing with Russia.

Both countries are in that area very interested to work together. But now there is also a political aspect. There is a turmoil in the world. And we are seeing that both countries are working in sync, particularly in the United Nations, in G20, in BRICS, in SEO, in many other international organizations. They are working in sync. They are voting the same way.

Absolutely the same on various resolutions. They are promoting the same attitude towards the resolving of world crisis or crisis around the world. And they are promoting peaceful negotiations and, of course, the only way possible to resolve the crisis, and that's through negotiations and through talks and not through any type of violence or wars.

And this is the second element that brings together both China and Russia. And this is something that I can say from the point of view of Russian ordinary people I am speaking with here every day. This is something that Russian ordinary people also like and support. The state visit also coincides with a symbolic moment, the 80th anniversary of the Soviet Union's victory in the Great Patriotic War.

And that also contributed to the end of the World War II. So what is the atmosphere been like on the ground? And what does this mean to everyday Russians? Every single family in Russia

had someone who lost his or her life during the World War II or was it their direct family member or somebody who was a relative or cousin. And every single family has someone who participated in the war. Some of those ancestors survived. 23 million, according to some estimates, 23 million Soviets

perished during the World War II.

vast majority of them are and were the Russians or people from what is these days Russia. So from that perspective, for ordinary people, this event is of huge importance. This marks the end of World War II in Europe. And this marks the end of the greatest suffering this country, this nation faced in the past many hundred years.

For them, when you walk around the city, you will see people wearing so-called Georgievska ribbon. It represents a memory of the victory and the memory of the fallen during that World War II. What they are calling, as you mentioned, the Great Patriotic War. That's the name of that war from the Russian side, Russian perspective.

I had privilege and opportunity, or opportunity or privilege, and privilege to be a few days ago in the town of Volgograd.

the previous name of that town was Stalingrad. So when you say Stalingrad, I think that the vast majority of the people around the world know what Stalingrad was and meant the greatest battle or the biggest battle in the military history, in human history, where around 1.2 million people

died. It was a horrible battle which lasted seven months. So I spent there a few days, spoke to ordinary people. I had opportunity to speak with one veteran who was 14 years old at that time. He is 97. In three weeks from now he will be 98.

He told me what ordeals were there. He was together with his father. His father at that time was a captain of a small ship which ferried ammunition fighters wounded from one side of Volga River to another side of Volga River. So I spoke with him roughly around half an hour because he...

he is 97 years old and he still keeps all those memories quite fresh and he was able to communicate with me how it was back then. And when you hear that kind of testimony, then you understand why people in Russia here are so much emotional about what happened in the World War II, about the sacrifices of their ancestors and they are so eager of keeping the memory of

all those fallen and all that destruction which happened from 1941 to 1945 here in Russia and for Russians. You mentioned about the remaining soldiers, and I think maybe that is also part of the reason why we need to protect the legacy of the war. At a high time of current geopolitical tensions, is there any deeper significance behind these gestures sent to the world? Of course. This is something that...

Particularly politicians here are saying, because they are mostly engaging in various types of communications, although those communications are now quite rare, with their Western counterparts.

The Russian position, what the Russians are saying is that the West is now trying to rewrite history, to rewrite what actually happened during World War II. Very frequently here, people are using the example of the United States. And they are saying that the United States lost during World War II, both in European and in Asian theatres, battle theatres, war theatres, they lost around 380,000 soldiers.

comparing to the casualties of just Soviet army, which was around 8 million people, comparing to 16 million people, 16 million civilians killed in Soviet Union, comparing to 35 million people killed in China. Those figures are so, so different. And when Western politicians

American politicians in the first place. Saying these days that the United States actually won the war and that the war, the Second World War was won because of the United States and that the United States crushed Nazi Germany. This is something that is being received here in Russia with

how should I put it, very unwelcoming attitude. Russians say this wasn't the case.

They say that the history was different, not as the Hollywood is rewriting the history, not as some politicians in the West are trying to rewrite the history. Russians are also very touchy about the subject of Russian military monuments across mostly Eastern Europe because the Soviet army liberated Eastern Europe from Nazism.

After the war, on many places where many major battles, where hundreds of thousands of Soviet soldiers perished during those battles, liberating those parts of Europe from Nazism, in those places various monuments were erected after the World War II.

Now those countries, host countries, are removing those monuments, citing that they were actually occupied by the Soviets or citing that because of what is happening in Ukraine and Russian actions in Ukraine, these monuments have to be removed. This is something that Russians are also rejecting and saying that this is another attempt.

to rewrite history, including that some of war, World War criminals from Nazi Germany became after that became highly placed politicians or or security officials in various countries in that part of Europe. And this is something that once again, Russians here consider as a rewriting of history and

diminishing the role of tens of millions of people from the East who perished during the World War II. For them, this is a rewriting of history and they are very strongly against it. And that's why I want just to say this and to finish with this question, that that's why they are saying that marking the main nine in

this way and this manner, how they're doing now is very important in order to keep reminding the rest of the world what actually happened during that period of time. For Russia, it was from 1941 to 1945. For China, it was way much longer period of time because for China, the World War II started much, much earlier, not in 1941.

I know you are from Serbia, and we also noticed that Serbian President Aleksandar Vucic was among the attendees. However, some countries tried to block his flight to Russia. So why was it so important for the president to attend this event?

Yes, there is actually a couple of presidents from Europe who actually arrived. Aleksandr Vucic was one of them and prime minister of Slovakia Robert Fico was another one. And some of the countries tried to block their arrival to Moscow as they threatened first to close their airspace

in order to block those VIP airplanes flying from Serbia and Slovakia to reach Russian airspace. Usually that was through Poland, Lithuania, Latvia and then entering Russia. That was the usual route after crisis in Ukraine started. So those countries, including Poland,

closed their airspace for VIP planes from those two countries, from Slovakia and from Serbia. And both dignitaries in two separate flights used other routes. One, President Vucic flew over Bulgaria, Turkey, Azerbaijan. Two,

Russia, while the prime minister of Slovakia flew through Hungary, Romania, Black Sea and then up to to Moscow to arrive

Both of them apparently wanted to show that these two countries will not forget what happened during the World War II. Regarding Serbia, I can give you a little bit more details. Serbia is the country who suffered the most in the 20th century.

by percentage, by the number of casualties. In World War I, Serbia lost over 30% of its population. Can you imagine that? One in three people killed in the World War I. That's horrible.

30%. That was World War I. Then the World War II came. In the World War II, Serbia lost over 1 million people. Small Serbia, which at that time had something like 6 or 7 million people. It was around 17 or 18% casualty rate. It is also huge for Serbia. Both of those wars happened

are very important and Serbia is trying to keep the memory of those fallen in that period of time. Because Serbia is a country which is at this moment only 6.5 million people. And when you have a country of such a small scale and you have 1 million killed, it is just a horrible number.

And that's why for Serbia it is important to mark this day. And apparently some people in the West, some politicians in the West are not happy with Serbia wants to go to Russia to mark the end of the World War II on the European soil. But there is just a couple of historic events which Serbia is...

refusing to forget. One is that Soviet Red Army helped back then partisans to liberate part of Yugoslavia and to liberate Serbian capital, Belgrade. And this is something that

Of course, people in Serbia cannot forget roughly around 4,000 Russian soldiers were killed in the operations on the territory of Serbia back then. That's one reason. The second reason is that back in 1944, the Allied Command, meaning the Western Allied

Western allies started indiscriminate bombing campaign against several towns in Belgrade, in Serbia, towns where there was not a single German soldier, causing tens of thousands of casualties among Serbian civilians. And in that light, Serbia is more prone to attend ceremony on May 9th

in Moscow than ceremony on previous dates in any of Western capitals. We are now living in a peaceful world and the international landscape nowadays is even more complex considering the US tariffs, ongoing tensions in Ukraine and lately the instability in part of Asia.

And many people view the China-Russia relationship as a pillar of global stability. However, in the West, some countries often portray these two countries as adversaries. So how do you view these conflicting narratives? I would say just one thing, and I think that that's the root cause for what is happening now.

nor China nor Russia in their history were colonial powers. They were never enslaving people. This is not the case for the countries who are now saying that they are democratic countries, who are now saying that they are fighting for the liberties, etc. I think that those countries who are still suffering or the leaderships of those countries are still suffering from colonial mentality.

colonial mentality which requires everybody else to just subjugate to the orders from the capital cities of those colonial powers.

And they would like to see countries like China, like Russia, like many other countries to be just obedient servants, to be a reservoirs for raw materials and for manpower when

the manpower is needed for construction or whatever. And they are not so happy to see those countries progressing. It is best to see those countries being kept in constant state of to be poor, to have their people just poor. The supply chain, right.

Absolutely. So this is and now I know Alosha Milenko, which is talking, not the reporter, but now the ordinary person is speaking. So that's for me and from my perspective, that's the root cause for this crisis, which we have right now.

Because those former colonial powers are still living in the colonial mentality. And they still think and want that the rest of the world just follows them. And now when we have several other countries who are facing such a dramatic economic progress, such a dramatic increase of quality of living, human freedoms,

they are trying to diminish those progresses and they are trying to create an atmosphere, particularly through their media, an atmosphere about those countries saying, "Oh, look, human rights are violated there. Oh, their progress is fake. Everything in their countries are fake. The only freedoms, the only progress, the only good economy is in the West."

the narrative, they are very successfully, I would say, unfortunately, are pumping through their media and trying to scare their own people of two bogeymen. One bogeyman is China, another bogeyman is Russia. And that's...

what is happening from my perspective and I'm really personally I'm really afraid in which direction this can lead because it seems that there are some elites in the west who tend to profit a lot from various conflicts and various wars and it seems to me that they would like to have another major conflict which might bring them more profits or whatever and Russia and China are

floodgate to those to all those attempts by those people Russia and China are trying to have world peace and progress equal progress for everybody not progress for just a certain

As we reflect on the legacy of the world antifascist war,

What lessons do you think we can draw from that period to help us navigate the challenges of today's world? Unfortunately, there is a saying back in my country, the nation which fails to learn from history is doomed or destined to repeat it.

Some are trying to forget about what happened and how it happened and try to motivate their own nations that the war is good,

that they need to go to war against horrible Russians, horrible Chinese, because it is good. They are fighting for good cause. And when you try to question those people what is good cause for them, most of them actually don't know what to answer. They are just repeating the narrative of

what is being told and what is said by their media. And this is what scares me the most, that the people are forgetting about the horrors of the war, horrors of the World War II, which left entire Europe in shatters, in ruins, horrors which left tens of millions of people

killed in World War II, just around 50 million in Europe, 35 million in China. And it seems that some people would like this to repeat, and that's why they are trying to erase the memory of all of that horrible legacy of wars. For the past 25 years, I am working as a news correspondent.

and I was reporting from every single war around the world in that period of time. I have seen wars from first hand, from first lines and let me tell you

War is horror. And we all should fight to the last drop of our blood not to have any more wars because they are bringing just a destruction and suffering and killing. And this is something that we should try to stop, to prevent this to happen ever again. I'm just afraid that there are some people who are trying to raise the legacy of

And the memories of World War II, for their own benefits and purposes, are trying to erase that from the memories of the people. And this is something that I think we should try to fight against. Clearly, the state visit by Chinese President Xi Jinping, the content of the China-Russia joint statement, and the commemoration of the Soviet Union's victory in the Great Patriotic War reflect a strong push toward global stability.

In a time when unilateralism is on the rise, an international cooperation is facing more challenges. Major powers have a responsibility to lead with vision and accountability.

Thank you so much for your time and insights. You're welcome. It was my really great pleasure speaking with you. Today, as multilateralism gathers momentum, some countries still turn opportunities for cooperation into confrontation, clinging into an outdated Cold War mentality. That's why reflecting on the legacy of war remains more relevant than ever.

Therefore, President Xi's visit to Russia serves as a timely reminder of the need to push back against the growing global instability and to inject a measure of peace and balance into an increasingly volatile world. And that brings us to the end of this episode of Deep Dive. If you enjoyed what you just heard, don't forget to follow us on your podcast platforms. Just search for Deep Dive.

You can also leave a comment and let us know what you want to learn about China and beyond. This episode is brought to you by me, Jiang Tao, and my colleagues Zhang Zhang and Qi Zhi. Special thanks to CGTN reporter Alyosa Milinkovic.