EP26:Deep Into - Who is Government?
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All right. Welcome back to the Deep Dive. And, you know, listeners sent in a really interesting batch of sources for us to dig into this time. Yeah, it's a pretty fascinating question they've all centered on. Who is government? It seems pretty simple at first. Yeah. But, you know, it gets really interesting pretty quick. We've got excerpts from Michael Lewis's book by that same title, Who is Government?,

Right. Paired with chapters from a bunch of other authors. And they all explore, you know, different aspects of what it's actually like to work in government. Yeah. I thought that was really interesting about the material you sent. You know, it really avoids, you know, all the usual political debates and stuff. It doesn't get bogged down in policy jargon and like really dives into the personal stories of the people you know who are actually doing the work. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

And that's exactly why we're doing this deep dive. We're not here to just rehash the same old talking points. We want to really understand...

you know, how government works by, you know, understanding the experiences of the people who are actually a part of it. So listeners, get ready for some surprising insights into what government really means. Yeah, I think you'll definitely gain a new perspective. All right, let's jump right in. So in Chapter 5, the introduction to Michael Lewis's book, he asked this kind of basic question. Who is government? Yeah, but like you're saying, that deceptively simple question is kind of the perfect place to start. Yeah.

Why do you think that is? Well, I think it immediately pushes us to go beyond this abstract idea of government, you know, as one big entity. It forces us to think about, you know, the actual humans, people with motivations and skills. Right. And, you know, the challenges they face within the system. Yeah. I love that he actually calls government this journalistic goldmine. Yeah, that stood out to me, too. What do you think he means by that?

Well, if we think about Lewis's work in general, right, he's really good at finding these incredibly compelling human stories in these large, complex systems. Right. And government is like the ultimate example of that. But even at that scale, it's ultimately just

you know, a collection of individual stories. And a lot of them go untold. So his point about curiosity is key here, you know. It takes real effort to kind of dig beneath the surface and find those narratives, the stuff that most people don't even know is happening. Right. And, you know, speaking of stories, let's move on to Chapter 6. It's another chapter titled Continued Who Is Government? Mm-hmm.

And right away, Lewis tells this amazing story about, well, it takes place right after Trump gets elected. Yeah, it's a really interesting look at, you know, that whole transition of power. Yeah. So he talks about how President Trump just, you know, basically fires his entire transition team.

And then appoints Rick Perry as secretary of energy, even though Perry had actually suggested getting rid of the department entirely. Which is wild. Yeah. And then during Perry's confirmation hearing, he admits that he doesn't really know what the Department of Energy even does. Right. Right. Which is crazy, right? Because they handle stuff like our nuclear arsenal and energy production and even things like weather forecasting. Yeah. So this kind of whole experience, right, it really sparks Lewis's own journey into the

auditing government agencies. Yeah. It's what leads him to spend all this time just kind of, you know, wandering around the energy and commerce departments, just seeing what he can find. Yeah. And it was a total wake up call for him. He describes being so surprised to learn about all the essential work going on, all this vital stuff. But it was just completely invisible to the public. Right. And, you know, that whole experience eventually led him to write The Fifth Risk, which, you know, listeners, you should

Definitely check out if you haven't already. And then, of course, that book kind of led to the Washington Post series, also called Who Is Government? Yeah. It's really kind of baffling to think about. You have all these incredible stories playing out. Yeah. All these really crucial things, but they just fly under the radar. Most people have no idea. Why do you think that is? Well, I think Lewis raises some really interesting points about that. I mean, you know, it takes a lot of resources to do that kind of in-depth investigative reporting. Yeah.

And news outlets just don't always have that kind of money to throw around. Yeah. And then there's the fact that government agencies themselves, they're not really in the business of self-promotion. You know? Yeah. They kind of prioritize discretion over getting their name out there. Yeah. I think that's a big part of it.

And of course, let's not forget about the negative stereotypes that people have about government workers. Faceless bureaucrat. Yeah. You know, inefficient, lazy, all that stuff. But what's so interesting about Lewis's account is that, you know, he found the exact opposite to be true. Yeah. For the most part. You know, he met all these dedicated people who were really passionate about what they do. Yeah. So.

What would you say is Lewis's main point here? You know, the big takeaway about how we tend to see government versus how it actually is.

Well, I think he's really trying to highlight this huge disconnect, you know, between this perception of government as this like big, slow kind of monolithic thing and the reality, which is that it's full of people who are working incredibly hard to keep things running. You know, they're doing all these vital jobs. Right. And a lot of us just don't realize it. And he argues, you know, that gap in understanding it's a real problem for democracy. OK, so moving on to Chapter seven.

Lewis introduces this metaphor of government as a canary in the coal mine. Yeah. And the person he focuses on here is.

is Christopher Mark from the Department of Labor. Can you tell us a bit about him and how he fits into this metaphor? So Christopher Mark, he's this perfect example of an unsung hero within government. Yeah. And that canary metaphor, it's about these individuals who are out there kind of on the front lines in these areas that most people don't even think about. Right. But they're the first to see danger. Right. Right. Or to recognize critical issues that could become really serious if no one notices.

So it's again highlighting that human element, right? That's like it's all these individuals who are trying to make a real difference, even if they face obstacles along the way. Yeah. And it really pushes us to reconsider how we think about government. You know, what if we stop thinking of it as this single faceless thing and started to see it as this, you know, collection of individuals who are committed to serving the public? Right. Right. Right.

I think that shift in perspective, you know, could lead to a lot more appreciation for how challenging their work often is. Yeah, I think so too.

So in Chapter 8, Lewis talks about the recognition or really the lack of it that these federal employees often receive. And he brings up these awards called the Sammies. The Service to America Medals. Yeah. Can you explain what those are all about? So the Sammies, they were created by this group called the Partnership for Public Service. Right. And the whole purpose is to acknowledge and celebrate, you know, outstanding achievements by people who work in federal government. It's all about, you know, recognizing the importance of public service, which is

we all know doesn't usually get a lot of fanfare. So these medals, they try to change that. But even with these awards, you know, it seems like getting nominated is still hard. Yeah. And...

Even when people do get recognized, it seems like their achievements get downplayed. Like you had that example of the nuclear waste cleanup manager. Oh, yeah. That's a great example. So this guy oversaw this massive project, right? This huge nuclear waste cleanup. And it gets finished years ahead of schedule. Right. And under budget. Under budget. I mean, that's pretty remarkable. But when he was asked about it, his response was just, well, you know, I

I just managed the project. Which is crazy. It's so understated, you know? And it really shows how a lot of the work within government, it's not about the individual. It's just about getting things done. Yeah, yeah. And the chapter also makes this interesting point that, you know, democracy isn't really designed to put individuals in the spotlight.

Right. Okay. And then we learn more about Christopher Mark. You know, he went to Princeton and his father was an engineer who built Gothic cathedrals. Yeah. It's not exactly the background you'd expect for someone working on, you know, coal mine safety. Right. But it shows how you can't really make assumptions about who's going to end up in these important roles. Absolutely. And despite that kind of unexpected path, you know, his work developing those safety standards, he

It's undoubtedly saved lives, countless lives probably. And, you know, it's interesting that Lewis makes this comparison between his work and, you know, his father building these lasting structures. It really emphasizes the lasting impact Christopher Mark has had, even if most people don't know his name. Yeah, that's a great point. All right. So Chapter 9 brings us to this new metaphor, the Sentinel. And we're introduced to Ronald E. Walters, who works at the National Cemetery Administration.

How does he embody this idea of government as a protector? So Casey Sepp, she's the author of this chapter, and she kind of reframes our whole understanding of government here. She calls it a sentinel, which basically means a protector, right? Someone who's watching over us, keeping us safe. Yeah. And she argues that government acts as a steward of these values that are important to us as a society.

And Ronald Walters, through his work at the NCA, he perfectly represents that. Right. He makes sure that everyone buried in a national cemetery is treated with dignity and honor. Exactly. It's about preserving their memory, ensuring that their sacrifice isn't forgotten. So you're saying that she's drawing a connection between this very specific role, managing cemeteries, and this bigger idea of government control.

as this caretaker of our shared values. Exactly. But she's also realistic, you know. Right. She acknowledges that the reality of how government works, you know, the day-to-day stuff, it doesn't always live up to that ideal.

Yeah, but she still makes this powerful argument that government is ultimately a reflection of who we are. Right. And that by recognizing the dedication of people like Walters, we can help build trust in government and hold it accountable. Right. Okay, so in Chapter 10, we continue with Ronald Walters, and we learn about this incredibly moving story about Staff Sergeant Robert Ferris Jr. Can you tell us about that? Yeah, it really shows the sentinel metaphor in action. Yeah. So Staff Sergeant Ferris' remains...

They were finally identified after all these years. Decades, yeah. And he was given a proper burial with full military honors. It's a powerful testament to the NCAA's commitment. Yeah. And Walters and his team, they made sure that even after all that time, he was treated with the respect he deserved. Yeah, exactly. And it's pretty amazing that the NCAA consistently gets these incredibly high customer satisfaction scores. Yeah. I mean, they're even higher than a lot of private companies.

What do you think that tells us about Walter's leadership? Well, it shows how meticulous he is, you know, how he's committed to the highest standards. Right. In every aspect of their work, whether it's something, you know, seemingly small, like cleaning the headstones or understanding how the ground settles over time. He really cares about getting it right. Yeah. And that dedication, it's contagious. It's created a culture of excellence within the whole.

whole NTA. And he's also spearheaded some really innovative programs. Yeah. Like the Veterans Legacy Memorial. Right. Which is this online platform where people can share stories about veterans. It's a much more personal way to remember them. And then there's the apprenticeship program for homeless veterans, which gives them real support, you know, and helps them get back on their feet.

It's clear that Walters is all about making a tangible difference in people's lives. It's not about him getting recognition. Exactly. It really underscores this idea that, you know, success isn't always about being in the headlines. It's about making a real impact. OK, so Chapter 11, The Searchers. We're moving on to NASA's Jet Propulsion Laboratory. What does Dave Eggers have to say about who government is in this chapter?

So Eggers, he focuses on these researchers at JPL, like Tiffany Kateria, Bertrand Menison, Vanessa Bailey and Kim Aaron. And he uses them as examples of the people who actually make up government. Right. And he uses this really cool metaphor, right? He compares their quest for knowledge, their work exploring space to all the unseen but crucial work being done in government agencies all over the country. It's about shifting our attention away from the institution itself.

And towards the individuals who are driving these efforts. Yeah. And focusing on their passions, you know, their struggles, their everyday work. Right. It's all about reminding us that government is powered by people, people who are driven to make progress.

So in Chapter 12, we continue with JPL and NASA, and things get really exciting because we start talking about the possibility of discovering extraterrestrial light. Yeah, it's mind-blowing, right? Yeah. So the chapter talks about the Nancy Grace Roman Space Telescope, which is being built right now. And it's going to use this really advanced technology to block out the light from stars. Yeah, starlight suppression. So we can actually see stars.

planets orbiting those stars. Right. Which, you know, is how we might find evidence of life. And the chapter also talks about Nancy Grace Woman herself, you know, who they called the mother of Hubble. Yeah. She was a real visionary. Yeah. And her work was essential to

you know, getting space-based astronomy off the ground and developing ways to find planets outside our solar system. And even though a lot of people don't know her name, you know, she made all that possible. Yeah, she was amazing. And the chapter also goes into this interesting discussion about the different approaches to blocking starlight. Right, like the coronagraph, which is what the Roman telescope is going to use. Yeah. And then there's this other idea of using a star shade.

Which is a separate spacecraft that would fly in formation with the telescope and basically create an artificial eclipse. Yeah. Blocking the light from the star. It's really cool. Yeah. So it's amazing to think about all this incredible engineering, right? All these innovations that are happening because of government funding. Yeah.

And the chapter really emphasizes, you know, how seriously NASA takes its responsibility to use taxpayer money wisely. Right. They're always trying to balance ambition with budget realities. And the chapter ends with this really beautiful idea that NASA is in the inspiration business. Yeah. Which is cool. Yeah. And then Vanessa Bailey, you know, one of those scientists we were talking about earlier, she said something really profound. She's like, imagine if we found life elsewhere. Yeah.

How would that change our view of ourselves, our place in the universe? Yeah, that's a big one. It's really humbling. Okay, so chapter 13 introduces the number. By John Lanchester. And it focuses on the Bureau of Labor Statistics.

And the creation of something that we all hear about but probably don't think about too much, the Consumer Price Index or the CPI. Yeah. Lanchester really does a great job of elevating this statistic. He shows how it's not just the sum number. It's this reflection of how the economy is doing. And it has a huge impact on policies and on everyday life. And, you know, I think.

I think it's really important that he shines a light on the people who are working at the Labor Department, calculating all this stuff. They're the unsung heroes. Their work is so meticulous.

And without them, you know, the government wouldn't really be able to function. Yeah, it's a really critical job. Okay, so in Chapter 14, Lanchester continues talking about the number and the CPI. And he starts off with these kind of random facts. Yeah, I remember that. He mentions Mount Yasur, this volcano that has these really predictable eruptions. And then he talks about the font that the army uses. What do you think he's trying to get at there? Well, he's using these kind of...

seemingly disconnected examples, right, to show how humans were constantly trying to

understand and categorize the world around us. Right. And then he brings it back to the CPI and argues that it's a central number. Yeah. In our attempt to grasp the complexity of the economy. And he reminds us how much it impacts us. You know, right. Social Security, food stamps, all kinds of things are tied to the CPI. And he even explains how the CPI is calculated. Yeah. Which is super complicated, actually. Right. They have to track the prices of all these specific items across the entire country.

And of course, you know, there's a lot of debate about the CPI. Some people don't trust it. Yeah. I mean, there's always going to be some disagreement about how it's calculated, you know, and whether it accurately reflects the cost of living for everyone. Right. But Lanchester, he presents this really interesting argument. He says the CPI is this symbol of the Enlightenment project, this idea of using reason and data to understand the world. Right. Which is

powerful. But then he raises this really concerning point. Yeah. He talks about how more and more people are distrusting data. Right. And he worries about what happens if we lose faith in objective information. He calls it a darkening. Yeah. It's kind of a scary thought. Yeah. All right. So on to Chapter 15, the cyber sleuth. And Jared Koopman from the IRS.

Not who you'd expect. No, not at all. You don't usually think of the IRS as being on the front lines of fighting cybercrime. Right. But Geraldine Brooks, she does a great job in this chapter of showing how important their role actually is. Yeah. The IRS has all these people like Jared Koopman who are basically digital detectives. They're tracking cybercriminals using all sorts of high tech tools. And it's not just about tax evasion anymore.

Right. They're going after people who are exploiting children online, terrorists who are using cryptocurrency, all kinds of stuff.

And Koopman himself, you know, he comes across as really driven by this sense of justice. Yeah. Which is really interesting. And she ties his work into this broader context of cybersecurity. You know, how the lines are getting really blurred between different sectors these days. Right. Exactly. OK, so Chapter 16 goes into some of the specifics of Jared Koopman's work. And it's incredible. I mean, his team has rescued children from.

online predators. They've seized child abuse material, arrested pedophiles, stopped terrorists from getting funding. Recovered billions of dollars. Billions of dollars. It's amazing the scale of what they're doing. And it's kind of ironic, right? That this is all happening within the IRS, which is this agency that so many people love to hate. And as if their job wasn't hard enough, they're always underfunded, understaffed. So it's even more impressive that

that Koopman and his team are able to accomplish so much. And get this, he actually understood the potential for crime with cryptocurrency way back in 2012. Yeah, when Bitcoin was still this new thing. He was ahead of the curve.

And his team has been involved in some really big cases. Yeah, like Silk Road. Yeah. That online black market. Welcome to video. Oh yeah, that was a terrible one. A site where people were sharing child sexual abuse material. And Binance. Which was this huge cryptocurrency exchange. Yeah, and they busted them for all sorts of illegal activity.

So it's kind of crazy to think about, right? Yeah. Coopman and his team are doing all this important work, but most people have never even heard of him. They're really in the shadows. And, you know, you'd think with his skills, he could easily go work in the private sector and make a ton of money. Yeah, absolutely. But he chooses to stay in public service. So, you know, I think the chapter makes a really powerful point. We need to rethink our assumptions about the IRS and recognize the vital work that people like Coopman are doing. Absolutely.

All right. Chapter 17, The Equalizer by Sarah Vowell. This is a good one. It's all about the idea of government as this force that can balance out inequalities in society.

And we meet Pamela Wright from the National Archives, who provides some really important historical context. Yeah, Val does a great job of using these historical examples to show how relevant this idea is today. Yeah, how government actions have a direct impact on our lives and how we have a responsibility to make sure it's working towards fairness for everyone. Right. Okay, so Chapter 18 takes us back to the National Archives with Pam Wright.

And now we're learning about all the work that goes into making these historical records accessible to the public. Especially to people who don't live near D.C. Yeah. And it starts with this really cool anecdote about how people had to scramble to save these government records during the War of 1812. Yeah, they were literally loading them onto wagons and ships to keep them from being destroyed by the British. Right. And eventually that leads to the creation of the National Archives.

or NRA. In 1934. Yeah. And their mission is to make sure that all these records, you know, billions of them, are available to anyone who wants to see them. And we're introduced to Pam Wright, who's the chief innovation officer. Yeah. And she's really focused on digitizing these records so that people who aren't in D.C. can access them. Which makes sense, you know, considering her own background. She grew up in this tiny town in Montana. Yeah. Conrad, Montana. Population.

Less than 3000 people. It's a world away from D.C. Yeah. And it really shaped her perspective on the importance of making these records accessible to everyone. And she's also a product of government programs herself, you know? Yeah. She talks about how the federal work study program helped her through college. Yeah. And that really inspired her commitment to public service. So she's been this driving force behind all sorts of initiatives to get these records online. Yeah. Like the Citizen Archivist Program, which is where volunteers help transcribe and tag these documents.

Yeah, it's been incredibly successful. And then there's History Hub, which is this online platform where people can ask questions about history. Yeah, and Narae staff and other experts answer them. It's really cool. Yeah. But, you know, as always, the archives are chronically underfunded. Yeah, they have to...

to constantly come up with creative solutions. Yeah. You know, the chapter talks about the emotional impact of seeing these documents firsthand. Yeah. Like the Treaty of Nuwakota, which was this treaty that led to the forced removal of the Cherokee Nation from their land. It's heavy stuff. Yeah. But it's important to remember. And, you know, I think Pam Wright's dedication to making sure that everyone can access these records, it's really inspiring. Yeah, it is.

All right. So in Chapter 19, we meet the rookie. By W. Kamau Bell. And he brings us right back to that original question. Who is government? Yeah. And his answer is simple.

It's us. Yeah. He argues that government isn't this separate thing. It's made up of people like us. Yeah. And he introduces us to Olivia Rienberg going from the Department of Justice. And she's a great example of how, you know, someone new to the system can bring a fresh perspective. Right. Bell really emphasizes the importance of having that rookie mindset. That curiosity, you know.

that willingness to question the status quo. Yeah. He encourages listeners to really think about what government means to them, you know, and how they understand it. OK, so chapter 20

tells Olivia's story. And it's really inspiring to hear about her passion for her work at the DOJ. Yeah, she's a paralegal specialist in the antitrust division. Right. And she loves it. She's come to realize that this work, you know, making sure that companies are playing by the rules can really make a difference in people's lives. Right. And her quote about the American dream is really powerful. Yeah. She says the American dream shouldn't impede on other people's American dream.

Which is a great way to put it. Yeah. And her background is also fascinating. Yeah. She was adopted by two moms, moved to Oakland to be part of a strong community, and was involved in activism from a young age. It's clear that she's always been driven to make a positive impact. Yeah, absolutely.

And the chapter also talks about Maxsteer and the Partnership for Public Service. Right. And their program for training paralegals like Olivia. Yeah. And it brings up this really important issue of student debt. Yeah. How it can be a huge barrier for young people who want to go into public service. Yeah, exactly. So the chapter ends by really stressing how much we need people like Olivia in government. Yeah. And how we need to support them, you know, make sure they can afford to do this work.

OK. Chapter 21, The Free Living Bureaucrat. And we meet Heather Stone at the FDA. Another great example of how the reality of government work often doesn't match the stereotype. Yeah. She's a total unsung hero. Yeah. And the chapter highlights this tension between bureaucracy and innovation. Right. You know, how those two things can clash.

But it also shows how people like Heather can navigate that and still make a real difference. Yeah, there's this amazing story about how she used her quick thinking to save lives during a crisis. Right. It really makes you question those assumptions we have about government workers. Yeah, absolutely. OK, Chapter 22 continues Heather Stone's story. And this one is really emotional. It is. It's about this couple.

and Amanda Smith and their daughter Elena, who's diagnosed with this extremely rare brain-eating amoeba. Balamephia mandralaris. Yeah. And there's basically no effective treatment for it. So Amanda, she just throws herself into research, desperately searching for anything that could help her daughter. Yeah, and she stumbles across this drug, nitroglycerin,

Nitroxylene. Yeah. That's shown some promise in lab studies, but it's not approved for this use. So she contacts Heather Stone at the FDA. She helps them navigate the system and get access to the drug. Yeah. She really goes above and beyond. And Elena, she actually recovers. It's a miracle. It really is. And, you know, of course, this has a huge impact on Walter and Amanda's marriage. Yeah. It brings them back together. But the chapter doesn't end there.

It also points out that even though Alina survived, the system for treating rare diseases is still broken. Yeah. Heather had this database of potential treatments that was just sitting there unused. Right. And then they tell this heartbreaking story about another little girl in California who wasn't so lucky. It's a reminder that even within these stories of individual resilience and connection, you know,

There's a bigger system that needs to change. Yeah, exactly. OK, so chapter 23, image credits. You might think, oh, this is just a list of photos. Right. But it's actually more than that.

Yeah, the book presents it as this creative element. You know, how the photos and their captions contribute to the story. And remember how the title of the book is Who is Government? Yeah. Well, the image credits kind of do that, too. Right. They present these individuals as characters, you know, like the canary, the sentinel, all these roles that they're playing. Yeah. And the photos themselves, there's a real mix there. Yeah. Some are professional portraits. Some are snapshots.

Some are archival images. And you can tell that they've been carefully selected and edited. It really adds another layer to the story. All right. And finally, Chapter 24 continued. Who is government? It ends with this powerful question to the reader.

Has a federal employee ever inspired you or made a positive impact on your life? Yeah. And it encourages people to share their stories with the Partnership for Public Service. Right. Which is really cool. It's like they're creating this archive of positive experiences with government. And, you know, it's all about recognizing the contributions of these public servants who are often overlooked. Yeah, absolutely. OK, so after this whole deep dive, you know, all these different perspectives on who government is,

What would you say is the most important thing for listeners to take away? Well, I think the biggest takeaway is that government isn't this big, scary, faceless monster. It's people. People like us. Exactly. It's a huge group of individuals, all with different roles, different motivations, and their work, you know, even if we don't see it, it impacts our lives every single day. And listeners, we hope you've enjoyed this deep dive. We've tried to give you a crash course on this complex topic and maybe even challenge some of your assumptions about

about government. But before we go, we want to leave you with something to think about, all those individuals we talked about.