Episode 174: Kelvin Wyatt Discusses Capoeira
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Well, hello and welcome to Deeper Down the Rabbit Hole. This is your host, Jason Michael Caldwell.

I'm here tonight with our guest, Kelvin Wyatt, and we have a very special show for you tonight. Normally, you know, we've been spreading out and getting different topics on the show. Started off being occult-based and paranormal-based. We've gotten some economic experts in here for you. We've gotten different types of business managers to come in and talk to you. Well, today, we're talking to an expert.

in the fields of the martial art of capoeira from South America. And he's also into some African Caribbean religion that we're going to talk about as well. I believe Condom Lay. And so let's get this going. Thanks for joining me tonight, Kelvin. How are things going in Detroit, Michigan?

It's going well. We've gotten past the whole usual Michigan weather with the snow, sun, snow, sun. So today it's just sun and rain, but it's going well. When was your last snow? I think you guys had it a little bit later than we did down in Columbus. Let's see. Our last snow was like the second, if I remember the first or second week in April. So yeah, it was just

It's like, come on now. We know it's Michigan, but we need a break. Yeah, but it's good to have you here. So maybe I'm wrong. I know a little bit about Capoeira, not a lot. Is that originally based out of Brazil? Well, and your statement as well is a lot of different things, more of the

Perception that everybody has about capoeira and everything, you know more Brazil But if you want to go like a little bit deeper for during the African diaspora more brought from Africa from Africa then to Brazil more in Africa capoeira itself, you know was more dance more spiritual everything as well, but

During the actual diaspora where everybody is being brought, you know, by the European and Portuguese colonization and everything, more to Brazil, that's where capoeira itself needed to be disguised, the self-defense, into a dance and a game. So that's really where the whole, the infusion and the strengthening of the fight aspect of capoeira had to be created inside of Brazil. That's great.

So, you know, I knew the aspect of hiding it so that they'd be able to have the dance and still practice the martial art without actually outwardly announcing they're practicing a martial art. Now, the thing I find interesting is having done Taekwondo from Korea and Shorin-ryu karate from Okinawa, I see how the kicks in capoeira are very...

In a sense similar, even though they're disguised in the motion of the dance. I'm just interested really, I wanted to ask you like, is there any Asian influence in capoeira or did this, was this really a system that was completely developed in Africa and then moving into the colonization in South America?

From what I've actually, even my back practice as well, from the actual arts that you've practiced as well, my background was first like from seven years old. It was actually like Taekwondo and Tang Soo Do and then to Jiu Jitsu. Nice. Yeah. And it was like, you know, I can say it was very fortunate because I had those like old teachers and everything that were like, you know,

We're not cookie cutter. You know, you're going to learn the art. You're going to learn how to do it right and well. So I'm like, all right, that's good. But from this, when you can look at capoeira itself, it does have its own style.

I don't want to say its own path and its own creation as much with capoeira you can see a lot of different things like say for example a roundhouse kick or you know a axe kick or anything from other martial arts as well they all look similar but in certain aspects of capoeira it had to be created

to be extremely fluent to the actual person's body. But what I do love, and I also tell this with my students as well, is that, you know,

Never look at just one art and everything and think that that one art is infinite because we're all interconnected. And if you can actually break down any martial art itself, every martial art itself actually has its own dance and its own language. You know, as you can see with some arts, you know, some arts, you know, where we have one actual specific form or a kata. Mm hmm.

And that in itself is its own position, its own beginning, and its own end. But it's its own dance. Well, yeah, and I can tell you definitely Taekwondo had its forms. And it's not as graceful in a sense. I would say that Shorin-ryu is even less graceful. But they have their forms. They have their practicing katas, kata.

in the Japanese and the Okinawan and obviously the Korean, you know, you got your forms and you practice these set moves and there's a rhythm to them. So in capoeira, the way they're teaching it, at least modernly, are there set dances that people learn that are choreographed in a certain way that's always the same?

Well, nowadays, as far as, you know, from modern day, from the past as well, modern day, much capoeira is actually being taught as a choreography. It is being taught as a choreography. Some actual groups, you know, will still teach capoeira as a natural thing.

you know, form itself. But a lot of the times it's becoming an actual choreography where, you know, actual signals are being, you know, given inside of a movement where you're actually what we call playing capoeira, which we call joga. Joga is basically translated from Portuguese, basically means play. So capoeira game where we play

the newer age they have more of a choreography as far as in the past it used to be where one there was no time for a choreography it was the whole fact of these are the movements this is what they're used for this is how we need to strengthen them and this is how you know the end result needs to happen so there was no

winking of an eye or you know, no like waving up a hand or you know like the shake like a year we're gonna get ready to do this everything was natural, but nowadays capoeira like Most arts itself as well. You know, it's it's really be it has come become commercial in such a way And you know not just got with itself but I can actually look at a couple of other things as far as you know when you look at the past and

who were some of the actual big action stars and everything that we all grew up looking at as far as one Chuck Norris or Bruce Lee. Everybody knows mostly those two integrally. Even like, say, the younger generations now today, they know what's Jackie Chan, Sammo Hung, Jet Li, those different actual instrumental people. However,

With that, it's become real commercial. So in capoeira itself, sometimes it's actually rare or sometimes hard to find somebody that will actually teach it in its natural form. Gotcha. So...

Why don't you tell us, okay, you said you got into like Tansudo and some of the Asian martial arts first. What got you on the course that you're on now? Let's talk a little bit about your history, how you wound up in capoeira. Well, it's funny. I'm going to tell you, I'm going to give you a very humiliating story at the same time, but for me, it's actually funny. Okay, go ahead.

Oh, yeah.

From there, it was, okay, wow, wow, this is just great. It took oh so many times with me doing jumping, flying kicks off of my mom's sofa and everything until she's like, yeah, you need to stop because you're getting a little bit too close to the lamps. So yeah, you need to stop. We're going to find something else for you to do.

So, we actually had a couple of martial arts studios around here and I had actually, you know, visited them. And, you know, it was good. It was, you know, a great way for me to, you know, I don't want to say exert all of that energy and everything and then it actually helped for the whole discipline aspect.

But I kept feeling that, okay, I'm going so far and then the whole tournament thing, that's great to be able to test your actual knowledge of your, not just your art, but yourself as well. And then it was always something that I felt was just missing. And it was like, I like these, but I don't feel like it's really talking and calling to me. I feel an art should.

And from there, from seven, you know, I did like a tang sudo, taekwondo, and they're not actually yet taekwondo, tang sudo and everything for about at least a good like four years. And then after that, I tried, you know, jujitsu for a second. And then it was like, you know, more of somebody that was here for a second and it just, you know, stopped their actual classes. But then it left me in that whole gap of like, ah,

I'm just practicing actual movements and everything that I can remember, but it's still something that is not calling to me. So I actually, my first introduction to Capoeira was a movie, Only the Strong. I love that movie. Yeah. Yeah. Mark Dacascos and everybody in it, you know, and I'm like, I saw it. It was like, it's funny because what started that day that I actually had saw it, it was like one day where,

There was actually a problem at school and everything so we couldn't go to school that day so when I was there I finished the work that I had to do and then you know the treat was you know hey well I get to watch you know TV and I saw this come on and I'm like okay starts off and I hear this music and I see these guys I'm like oh wow wow there's just like this guy just jumped in the air and did like a backflip and this other guy just

And I'm like, wow. But then even it just had me so enthralled in watching it. I'm just like, oh, my God, I can't take my eyes away from this.

So, you know, needless to say, it was the exact same replay as far as, you know, those first five times that I saw Enter the Dragon. It's like, okay, I need to go try to do these kicks and everything off of the sofa. So, but like at this time, I'm like, okay, I'm a little bit smarter about it. So let me look around the corner and yeah, mom's not here. All right, so good. Let's go try this out and see if this works. So,

Needless to say, I moved myself into the basement, so I really couldn't hit any likes. So from there, it was just like practice, practice, practice. And I'm like, it became like something that just grabbed me so much next to just like art, because I love to... I'm an illustrator as well, you know, back and forth and a photographer. But everything inside of the art aspect, I'm like, oh my God, this is just cool. So...

From there, every time I kept seeing it, I'm like, okay, how can I learn this? How can I learn this? How can I learn this? And, you know, with the limitation of the internet at the time and everything, it was just like, okay, a couple of forums. There was actually somebody out of California where he actually drew some stick figures, actually, of doing capoeira movements. And, you know, it was like, okay, I could just practice it from there. But then it's like, no, I want to find the actual teacher. So...

It just came to the whole fact that the only way I can learn this is if I go to Brazil. And I'm like, well, I'm like 14 years old, so yeah, that's not going to happen anytime soon. I'm like, I don't think mom's going to go, hey, go to another country. But...

Within all of that like that basically that itch never left I mean it's just never left if anything it just became more it just came stronger than anything in any other art that I tried before so Moving on to high school. I actually I was in art class and Just finished some assignments and then this guy came around He's like hey

you know, I like it. He's like, yeah, you draw that type of thing. You draw like Japanese anime. He's like, yeah, I draw that too. So,

We're both trading, you know, each other's information. And then you're like, you know, hey, yeah, we're in the same class. You know, we ought to like sit and go over some things. So I'm like, okay, cool. Now, this is the funny part of it. The funny part about me, you know, almost kicking the lamps over, you know, that was just like something also dangerous because you're like, hey, if you kick something over, you know, the end result is that you're going to get in trouble, period. But this part, I actually was riding my mountain bike home and everything.

And I'm like, okay, yeah, I want to get home and finish these couple of drawings and get some things done. Then, you know, practice a little capoeira. So...

I'm riding my bike and then I see somebody like in front of their house, like, you know, just moving. And then he starts doing a cartwheel and everything like this. And then that I'm like, wait a minute, that's somebody doing capoeira. Needless to say, I turned, this was, uh, I turned my bike real fast and I like did, you know, flip over the handlebars and like splat right in the middle of the street. Yeah. Pow. Like, Oh, get up.

you know, like, you know, brush myself off and then I go over there. It's the exact same person that I met at art class, like within that same week, like two days ago. So one of my best friends, even till today, his name's Tadarius Thomas.

But, and I'm like, you know, I'm like, Terry, dude, you do capoeira? He's like, oh yeah, yeah, I do that. And he's, I'm like, seriously, don't play with me. I'm like, you really do this? And he's like, yeah. You know, there's my bidenbao, my instrument, the one primary instrument we play in capoeira. He was like, you know, there's my bidenbao over there on the porch. And I'm like,

Okay, where did how did you learn it? Where do you learn it from? So from there? I actually found out that there was a small group in the in Detroit actually on the west side of Detroit that actually was teaching capoeira So and it's like from there that really, you know, just stemmed the whole path and the whole journey of me learning capoeira but

From there, it started off as a group of us, about four to five of us. Everybody started breaking off a little bit. We met one other guy. He was from San Diego and everything. He would come back and forth to Michigan. He was actually a teacher in Capoeira and everything. It was where somebody was there, but then at the same time, even with this person, it was again where...

they can only take you so far. And at the same time, it was like a lot of integral things as far as even, um,

the positives and negatives that I had saw within that actual person. So, you know, from there I took a step back. Um, everybody else stopped doing capoeira, but I was like the only one out of all of us that kept going because it was just something that it's like, I, it's like I took that one drink of water and everything. And it's like, there's nothing like it. And it's like, I just, I want this so bad. And it just called to me like every day. Um,

So from there, actually in 1999, I met around the first time, this is going back a little bit, 1999, we had a workshop here in downtown Detroit at the Serengeti Ballroom. The person that came from El Salvador, Bahia, his name's Mestre Caboquillo Aluwanda. Mestre Caboquillo, he's actually my teacher.

It's my master, my teacher in capoeira. The first time I met him, I was with a group in the past. And he came except the capoeira that he did was different. Like, this isn't the capoeira that I started learning. And he went, no, no, no, no. He's like, no, I don't do... His comment was...

He was like, I don't play capoeira like American. He was like, I don't play capoeira like American. He was like, I play capoeira like Brazilian. He's like, I'm Brazilian. He's like, I'm from El Salvador, Bahia. He's like, this is my culture. This is my life. This is everything to me. And he was like, no, I do capoeira Angola. And when most people nowadays, everybody knows when you see capoeira, you see capoeira.

But capoeira itself has a different aspect. We also have capoeira angola. And nowadays there's other forms of capoeira. You have capoeira angola, capoeira regional, capoeira contemporánea, you know, different things like that. But again, his capoeira I felt was like...

Mm-hmm.

in the whole practice because it's, you know, one again, how often can you actually meet someone that's from the country that does the traditional aspect of the actual art and who lives it every day? I mean, that's extremely rare. So from there, um,

He did a workshop, we took it, you know, he disappeared. But then after that, he came back in 2000, 2001. And that was at a time where I was just transitioning between schools and things like that. But

I went to one of his workshops again and saw him and he had invited me. He's like, hey, you want to learn Capoeira? He was like, you want to learn? He was like, come to my class. I can say at the time I was still kind of skeptical because it was one of those things like, this is too good to be true. And then at that time I said, you know what? I'm going to take a second.

And he told he left one thing when he was like the people that the person that you used to train with, go ask them if it would be OK for you to train with me. And then they're really like you opened the door to me to let me know to have me even learn at that type of age, teenage age and everything as far as like who is the actual person that, you know, wanted to see me grow and wanted to be there and who wanted to invest in

So the person from the past and everything, it's just like, no, you know, wanted to actually, you know, keep you like, you know, no, I can do this and this and that and the other. But I'm like, but we haven't done that before. So if you're telling me I'm going to spend these hundreds and hundreds of dollars and everything, you know, to train with you and this, that and then I'm like, that's that sounds like a wasted investment to me. It's going to be false. I'm like, I want to be able to, you know, grow positively inside of the art.

And I went back, talked to Mr. Caboquinho and then from there, you know, we went into the whole fact. He said, you know what? I will teach you. You want to learn? He was like, you want to have the capoeira from Brazil? He was like, I will teach you it. So I became a student of his in 2007. And April 10th, 2007. And I kept training, training, training, training, training. And then from there,

Many obstacles came as far as, you know, there was many individuals that, you know, from the past that, you know, tried to put a hamper inside of everything and it didn't happen. And then one thing with my teacher is that it was really good for him. He said, if you're going to learn capoeira,

I want you to learn Capoeira a lot like an American. I want you to learn Capoeira like a Brazilian. He was like, I want you to enjoy what you do, enjoy your investment because this is going to be something that will last with you for the rest of your life. Nice. And he was like, and it will not be something that you can just throw the towel in on. He's like, it's always going to test you.

And what really humbled me about him actually being a teacher is that he could, he gave, he told me one thing and that stuck with me till today is that he said, you know, I'm a master in capoeira, but I'm always a student in life. And for me to somebody saying that is like, that's somebody that's really humble about themselves because they,

As you know yourself, in the arts as well, sometimes when someone gets to the whole, like, you know, that title level of something, you know, they're like, well, I'm a third degree black belt. I'm this, I'm that. And they're like, you know, well, I've gotten everything. You know, that's a wrap. I'm this guy. I'm that deal. And it's like, no, the journey actually keeps continuing. But from there...

It helped a lot of aspects inside of my life and everything, the whole discipline of things. Actually, being able to divide people and everything. Beforehand, I was actually a person, and I still am, and I practice it as well, as being more perceptive and open to individuals' energies as far as if the positives or negatives and then being able to actually visually see them and feel them.

And the capoeira actually helped expand that and actually make it stronger. Okay, let's hold this thought. We've got to do a sound check because I've got an echo coming back at me. Okay. I know you've got your headphones in right now, right?

Oh, yeah. Well, I'm going mic-wise, so I have it muffled and everything. So it's all going. Cool. Okay. I don't hear the echo now, so you must have fixed it somehow. Oh, okay. Gotcha. I just heard my own voice coming back at me through your speakers, so... Oh, cool. Oh, technology. All right. Good, good. Okay. Yeah, we're good. We're good. All right. So...

Yeah, from there, there was many times where it tested me a lot. Let's expound on this for a second, man. What I'm hearing is you felt that you had a natural flow. You were kind of naturally psychic even before any specific training, correct? Yes. Okay. Now, let's get into how you said the practice started.

Well, I feel that, well, to answer that as well, it was, to go back a little bit and everything, younger age and everything, I was, you know, I was a little bit older than my mom.

very much, you know, perceptive to, you know, other, like, say, friends of mine and everything, their different energies and everything, as far as, you know, when you may have that red alert, like, hey, let's go do this, and it's like, no, I don't want to do that. Yeah, my parent didn't tell me no, but I already feel that that's going to be a bad situation.

But from that and then going to my actual teenage years, I would start having those actual instances where during an actual sleep pattern or anything, I would have those very intense dreams as far as even the ones as far as leaving the actual body and just being more astral and everything. And then at times I could say, well, I

You know, I saw my grandmother last night and everything. And then, you know, and like, wow. And then at times and everything was really funny because my grandmother would always call me like that exact same next day. And she's like, what are you doing?

She was like, I was just thinking about you. And then, you know, for me, me being able to talk to her about those type of things at times and everything, sometimes she was like, that's a little bit. She was like, no, but I know. She was like, I know. There's something different about you. I already know. And I already know. I know we're connected on a certain way. I'm like, well, yeah.

And even with my mother, you know, at times it was that. But, you know, for her, it was like, yeah, OK. But for the capoeira itself, what I felt it was is that it really gave me that it gave me that empowerment where the word freedom was strong.

as far as it was where it didn't matter what happened in the day or what needed to happen within the week or the minute or the millisecond. When I went back to Capoeira and everything, it actually always gave me clarity. And it really kept that balance as far as, you know, there were many, many avenues even into my adult years as well, even right now.

that it really helps as far as, there was one thing that I was always told by my teacher as far as, think about capoeira, capoeira is like life. He was like, it's not how some people may think capoeira is a religion. It's not. Capoeira is just another way of life, another way that you may perceive specific things. Within an actual art, it's gonna help strengthen everything as long as you're perceptive to the mind, body, and the spirit.

And from there, being able to practice the movements, you know, would put me into a whole position of

where someone may meditate. Within capoeira we have one of our first movements which is called "Jinga". Jinga means to sway. It's the first movement that everyone always sees in capoeira is the dance. And from there, it's like, wow, it's like when I do Jinga, everything just becomes so clear and it's like nothing else is happening right there. It's just me and the movement. And from there,

The whole harmony and the connection made everything fall into place as far as, you know, again, the general dream patterns of things as far as, you know, wow, something happened to this person. And then, you know, I'm calling the next day and they're like, oh, well, yeah, this didn't happen to me at work. How did you know about that? And I'm like, I just saw it in a dream.

or at times even calling, speaking to family members and everything, I'm like, "Hey, well, something other than we haven't talked in a while, something just wanted me to call you right now just to make sure that you were okay."

I knew that could all that happen from Capoeira, helping me gain that connection as far as with the whole harmony within myself and the universe itself. So it'd be similar to what athletes experience going into the zone where you have to maintain this pattern, this flow. And in doing so, it becomes like a moving meditation that put you into a trance state that helped clarify everything else that was going on with your third eye.

Exactly. Exactly. It's like, I mean, everything in itself from the whole mind, the body, the spirit, everything. And even to be honest, when I, you know, just practice Kapoweta, even when I'm teaching, it's like that is the most infinite part of myself and everything that my third eye is just

open, like extremely wide. And it's like, you know, wow, well, if this is going to come through the door and everything with somebody's energy and everything, how would you actually, you know, some people were like, how would you attend to it? And I'm like, no, I already know the answer to it. It's either, you know, let the negative win or let the positive be more infinite than it. So...

There you go. So you bring up that capoeira is not just a martial art, but a philosophy. You want to get more into how they address the philosophical and lifestyle aspects of the martial art? Yes, yes, yes.

Generally, anyone that practices capoeira and everything, I always tell even my students or anybody as well, everybody's going to have their own taste when it comes to capoeira, whichever one you may practice or anything, but it has a philosophy and everything. One of the philosophies that my actual teacher passed on to me was capoeira is like this is a question and an answer. It's a question and an answer, and it's a conversation.

One example, the question may be, "Okay, do I make a left turn to get out of the way of this oncoming traffic or do I go straight forward to it and everything?" But the question and the answer are you going to answer it with the wrong thing or answer it with the right thing? But even inside of the capoeira itself, its whole creation and practice is self-disguised, the self-defense into a dance and a game.

And at the same time to know that the individual is a empowered individual. They aren't something less. They aren't what somebody, you know, named you or made you to be. You are yourself. And you can become the most infinite self as long as you can believe in, you know, what you do. Not just inside of the capoeira, but inside of self. Nice.

Now, out of respect, because I know I will slaughter it. Oh, no problem. Hey, don't feel bad. It's hundreds of years, and you know, it's... The only thing, I thank you for just even giving me a warning. Right. So, let's get in. I'm going to have you call it out. The Caribbean religion that you've become involved in, and how...

became introduced to it? Well, what I can say myself, inside of the capoeira, most people, when you actually look about capoeira and everything, some people will look at one religion, candomblé. Candomblé itself is one thing that mostly a lot of people actually interconnect with the capoeira Angola, the old capoeira Angola.

One of the biggest things that I always tell everybody and everything is that one, being someone that practices Capoeira Angola does not mean that you're actually, you know, you practice Candomblé. You know, that more is something that was actually regurgitated around, you know, within America and other parts of different countries and everything. But I can say myself, I'm really, I am not initiated inside of a Candomblé.

but the actual individuals that I have learned from and have passed on the capoeira to me, um, some of their actual practices have come from the candomblé with self, not with the capoeira, not with the capoeira angola, but with self, with their own choice. Okay. But, um, again, capoeira or capoeira angola itself, it doesn't,

it's not a requirement for you to practice candomblé. If anything, it's just that you come as you are and you grow inside of the capoeira. The actual candomblé itself, you can look at the candomblé itself, it has an actual practice from African religions in Africa.

some actual Catholicism as far as some people actually look at it, but it actually references the Orishas. So it actually has, you know, its interconnections with the Orishas. And generally myself, what I connect for self with the actual Capoeira and Akanable is more of the empowerment that comes from

both aspects in how I actually perceive them as far as you know, not just fighting against them, but how they actually, you know, interconnect with myself through a daily basis. And generally from there, to give you an example, in Capoeira, most people have always seen it in movies.

In capoeira we have what's called a jorda. A jorda is a circle of capoeira. And inside of the jorda what happens is basically there are eight instruments. All eight instruments play the music inside of capoeira. Ben and balls, atabaca, drum, and tambourines. And each actual instrument itself brings its own energy and its own harmony inside of the circle. The circle will be representing life itself.

As far as you practice capoeira, you enter into the hoda, you play your joga capoeira with someone else to test your ability, your understanding inside of not just the physical but your actual spiritual and your actual connection with the self.

And that creates the actual harmony. But then again, you're disguising the self-defense into a dance and a game. So it's always that test and that we have to keep the harmony of everything. But as far as this connection, you know, some people, when they enter into the hoda, you know, before shaking the other person's hand, you know, they may say a little prayer or something like that, you know, at the pay a bidding bow, the foot of the bidding bow.

And, you know, then they enter into the jota. You know, for some individuals, for myself, when I enter into the jota, my general practice is that, one, I thank the actual, you know, everybody there, you know, mentally, not just the verbal, because capoeira itself, when you're playing capoeira, it's not a verbal art itself when you're playing capoeira.

But when you have an instrument and you're singing, then it's more verbal. But with then entering into the hall to shake my hand with someone else, my whole practice is that, thank you for this game, thank you for this day. I want this to be beautiful, I want to learn, and I want everybody to enjoy the energy and be positive. And from there, it's also that I ask that

My shield, my empowerment, everything that would protect me and everything, you know, come with me to today when I enter into the heart. And then from there, it all makes sense. Nice. So are you going to be a potential initiate of Candomblé or do you identify as another religion or...

I, my family's background, they were all Baptists. Some Baptists and some Catholic. Myself, you know, I really don't put myself into any one of those categories. I put myself into a whole fact of, you know, I'm an individual that's not against anyone's belief system. And at the same time,

I am growing and learning and understanding where I want to be. But in the future, yes, I would love to be initiated into the common way because I feel that more of the actual religions

that are more from more cultural aspect, you know, Africa, from the Caribbean, from everywhere else, Haiti as well. And even some of my family members are from Louisiana as well, you know, the actual, you know, some New Orleans and then some, they aren't here anymore, but they had their practice and everything that was from New Orleans itself. But those aspects of everything speak to me more than everything else. Nice.

I can understand. I don't know if you are aware that Andrea is an initiated Haitian voodoo priest. Oh my God. Yeah, actually, you know what? My wife, she's actually an initiated Haitian voodoo. And she actually had told me about it. She's like, yeah, well, and then out of the blue...

you know, we're like sitting around the table and, uh, Kenya, uh, Kenya Kovac, she, uh, sent the message to my wife and she's like, Hey, well, such and such wants to speak to you, but, uh, you can speak to Kelvin. And then she's like, uh, you know who this guy is? Yeah. He's like, yeah. I'm like the same, the same two individuals, Jason. And I was like, Oh, okay. All right. All right. I can dig that. I can dig that.

So, yeah, I am not initiated into Haitian voodoo either, but at the same time, I've taken part in a lot of the rituals over the years. Right, right. And then, you know, again, it's like, you know, within everything and anything that we look at and everything is that what I feel always helps me inside of the...

the capoeira and then everything in itself is that I'm not an individual that thinks about everything as far as a dividing line or a brick wall because I feel bottom line that when you create those limitations and everything you're really disconnecting all of the actual infinite connections that are out there and this whole journey that I've actually had and everything it's with the capoeira angola

It's taken me to Brazil twice. The first time it was in between the transition of marriage to a divorce and everything. But it actually going there, it helped empower me and everything, give me the actual answers that I felt I needed. And I came back even stronger. But from there is one thing my teacher will say. He's like, now, you know what? You've been gone too long. You've been doing this for so long.

It's time for you to go to Brazil. It's time for you to see the investment and experience it with the people from the actual culture so you can fully understand. So when you come back, he was like, you know, he was like, you come back, then you'd be more stronger in Capoeira. So you'd be able to pass this on to your people, pass this on to your community, make everybody else stronger. So...

From there, he didn't tell me the whole aspect of everything as far as, yeah, we're going to get up every morning at 5 in the morning until like 11 at night and we're going to train. So I'm like, you know, I love to train, but he's like, okay. And then he's like, yeah, well, we're going to do a couple of different things. You're going to be doing a lot of backflips on marble. And then it's just like, okay. But at the end of the whole thing,

trip he graduated me to my title that I have in Capoeira which I most people call it a title but I call it another step in life

I'm a contra mestre, which basically translated contra means against, and mestre, my master. But it's not that I'm against my master, it's that I have a different journey and a different path outside from my master. And then again, when you look at something like this, it's like, huh,

And I was actually, you know, at the end of it, they're like, oh yeah, you're good. It's like, okay, today we can say you like a Brazilian. You like one of us. It was like, you're here, you deserve this. So they're like, you come here, you speak our language. You speak Portuguese. They're like, you speak Portuguese? They're like, you, yeah. So during that transition, I was able to actually, right now,

I can say, because she has that empowerment, that label. My wife, my wife Yvette, she went to Brazil with me for the first time last year. It's her first time going to Brazil. So it was actually amazing to have somebody's support and everything like that to come with me and actually see the actual art and experience it as well.

And her coming back even empowered as well from her actual practices and then also something on top of it as well, which gave her more connections with everything that she does. And then it even made us a more powerful force together. So from there, I can just really say that this is a journey that I know won't end forever.

And I'm happy to always live it every second of my life. So how much Portuguese have you been able to pick up in this time frame? Are you getting pretty fluent?

Yeah, I can, it's good, you know, I can say it, you know, sometimes, you know, I have to, you know, un momento, you know, I have to say, oh, one moment, you know, more pressing, you know, I can, like any other art and everything, you know, sometimes everybody will get, like, you know, extremely, like, passionate in their actual language, and then it goes, like, hyperspeed. Yeah. So, yeah.

But what actually helped me a lot of the time is that it's kind of like I hear my teacher's voice in the back of my, not even the back of my head, but the front of my head at times. He's like, you know, you're going to do capoeira, you're going to speak our language. So I'm always like, you know, sitting down, practicing it. And then I actually have found a couple of other individuals that are from Brazil that actually live here in Michigan. So I'm, you know, able to actually, you know, meet with them when we sit and talk and things like that. You know, it's a breath of fresh air to actually have people to go back and forth with.

So I can say out of like, you know, the one through ten, I'm like, I'm an eight. I'm an eight. So the two more is just, you know, sitting there. I say the two more really be the easy things that any language actually gets where sometimes we all learn how to cuss first in the language before we know how to say hi. Right.

So really, you just need to get more submerged. Maybe go spend some more time there or just hang out with your friends more and speak it. No big deal. Yeah, and that as well. And even at times, because within a month and everything, I'm always talking to my teacher probably three or four times in a month. And we're on the phone for a while. He's always telling me how things are going with a group in Sacramento. And then I'm telling him how everything's going here. So yeah.

It's in itself a journey as well. Even having the support that I have here from my family and my family and my students and everything, they really trust what I'm passing on to them and everything. That helps me be a greater for them. How are you with your students? Have you been more...

going with the the art and the form or are you giving them the the full immersion busting them on the on the portuguese and all that too like you were taught or how yeah and even with that um

I can say it always, it depends on the individual and their actual passion because one of the biggest dividing lines and everything is that, you know, nine times out of ten, I can say I'm like, I've been there, done that before. When everybody comes through the door and everything, they're like, okay, I want to do, have you seen this movie? I want to do everything that that guy does on the movie. I want to do everything.

that Eddie Gordo does in a Tekken video game and everything. I want to do everything that they do. It's like, okay, well, I'm not going to have you just do that first because out of liability aspects and me not having to test my insurance, we're not going to go there. So...

We're going to take everything piece by piece and learn the base. Sometimes I have individuals that will come in and they want to become fully immersed inside of it. Some individuals just want to come in and use it as a workout aspect and everything. They have their own expectations as far as, I want to lose this weight. I want to tone up.

You know, I want to be able to protect myself. You know, I saw an MMA fight and everything, and I want to be like, you know, what's his name, Ian McGregor. You know, I want to knock people out with that one kick that you guys do in Capoeira. I'm like, no.

So it always depends on the individual. I have a little handful of actual students and everything where they're like, okay, good. Can we practice more? Can we practice more instruments? And again, it just depends on the individual. You know, I have a great deal of respect for your art too because I remember –

about two years ago, I think it was, there was a show on cable TV that was testing various martial arts against each other. Oh, fight science, fight science. Yes. And you know, the, the capoeira master won the power kit competition because he was using like a three point stance roundhouse, you know, and throwing his entire body into the bag.

Yeah, and I like the person that did it. I like him. His name's Lateef Crotter. I like him. Nowadays, we have, I can say, it's more representation when it comes into capoeira.

As far as in the past, what you would always see in everything in any martial arts movie is, you know, it's like, oh, the guy that does capoeira always gets beat up or he's like the henchman or the bad guy. And it's like, okay, well, why does he have to get beat up? And it's like, but he's doing cooler stuff than the, you know, main star. Well, if I remember correctly, wasn't there a capoeira guy in Bloodsport? I think. Yeah. In a Bloodsport show.

Yeah. And he got beat. But, you know, he had somebody that did Capoeira in Bloodsport 2, somebody that did Capoeira in Kickboxer 40, Aggressor. It's, you know, many other ones. Even The Quest with Jean-Claude Van Damme. Oh, yeah. And it's like, you know, but actually I had the same question like two days ago. My student asked this and he's like, you know, he's like, you know, Contra Mestre. He's like, what?

why is it that everybody he's like every time i see somebody that does capoeira they get beat up he's like but they do so much stuff and the guy should be just not getting up and i'm like well you have to look at who owns the money in hollywood and you know and who's gonna be the star so it's like you know i'm not gonna let this but i told him i was like needless to say

There will never be a martial arts movie where the director just says, you do this art, you do this art, go all at it. We're just going to record it and see who wins. Because one, stuntmen are going to lose their jobs. And then two, you're going to be testing everything that goes with insurance and liability that goes with the actual individual because they're not going to hold back their movements. So...

But going back to the person, Lateef Crowder and everything, the movement he did, we call it a . So means a hammer. And with , one thing that we always learn is that you use all of your body into your actual movement.

As far as, you know, with him actually being able to transition, you know, the power from his actual lower core to his hips, then to his leg, that's something that, you know, is a fundamental aspect of Capoeira that we always have to practice, like, all the time. So, yeah.

Yeah, and one of the biggest things is that, you know, a fundamental that was always to pass is that, you know, someone that practices capoeira, they should, other than them being standing upright, they're supposed to be strong even upside down on their hands. Ah, yes, I've seen some of the aspects too of the handstand kicks and things like that. Now, what I haven't seen is,

You know, out of my own personal interest, I have to ask you, are there any punching techniques in capoeira?

Yes. Yes, they are. And then even like, and I'm happy that you actually asked that question because one, how everybody basically sees capoeira, they always think of it as, you know, a kicking art. But, you know, a kicking art is full of acrobatics. And then, you know, I even have people thinking, you know, hey, breakdancing, is this a dance fight? I'm like, no, you know, we're not going to go old school and start pop locking in the middle of a fight. Okay?

I'm like, no, it's not going to go there. And I told somebody actually with that, and I was like, no, if you actually look at it in reverse, which one was first? Was it capoeira or breakdancing? And I'm like, no, your breakdance actually came from capoeira. So they're like, oh. And I show them the actual people coming from Brazil to America in that time of actual b-boying and pop-locking. They're like, oh, wow, that makes sense. Uh-huh.

So, but from that aspect, capoeira, yeah, has a lot of different, capoeira has punches, you know, punch, jab, cross, uppercut. It has grappling technique. It has, you know, toss, hip toss, takedowns. It has everything in it. Again, it's one of those things as far as,

who the individual is that's passing it on. Because sometimes there are actual individuals that the capoeira they learned was more from an actual dance and an artistic aspect. And then you have other individuals like my teacher himself and everything. Every day of his life was basically he had to use capoeira to stay alive.

So, you know, if he wasn't fighting in the street with Capoeira, he had to use it, you know, to perform, to actually make the money, you know, to survive in his country and to help provide with his family and, you know, and so on and so on. So it always depends on the individual. You know, that's something, too, that I don't think a lot of people here are aware of, the fact that a lot of those countries in South America, I don't even think, you know, correct me if I'm wrong, Brazil's not totally stable these days even.

Yes, we are.

And it's like going to actually Brazil and everything. Like, for example, my first time going there, I'm walking around, everybody's, "Bom dia, bom dia, como vai?" Everybody's, "Good morning, how are you?" And even the people that are homeless, they're laying on the street or anything like that, but you're walking by and they're, "Bom dia." And I'm like, "Seriously?" And I'm like,

you know, you still, anywhere you have to be cautious about it, but everything, but even my whole perception of it, I'm like, this is someone that's actually genuinely asking me or telling me good morning. And here in the United States, it's like, you know, if it's just going by, you know, you're like, hey, how you doing? You know, somebody's like, oh, whatever, you know, screw you. And I'm like, oh, I just told you, asked you, how are you doing? You're like flipping me to bird. Okay. Yeah.

But it's over there, it's like they don't take things for granted. And it's like more of everybody's actually working inside of the whole unity aspect of, you know, everybody's going to grow. Not just one person's going to be on a hill being a martyr and then everybody else is going to be the peons. That's like one of the biggest things that we have here in the United States that's just extremely backwards. Yeah.

You know, the funny thing, something you and I shared growing up in the inner city, man, you come to realize in life, especially as you get older, you go to the hood and people are more likely to say good morning and be polite. And then you start seeing people in the upper tiers of society and they're the ones that sneer at you when you say good morning. You know what I mean? Oh, yeah. Oh, this. Oh, that's even work here in Detroit. Oh, geez. It's like, well, one,

We already have the past of everything that's basically happened as far as, you know, we're labeled with what Kwame Kilpatrick did and all of the ridiculousness and everything of, you know, the whole city from even the Coleman A. Young times to now. But it's transition has happened in everything where...

We have our main, one of our main streets and everything that's, well, main mile, 8 Mile. So everybody that basically lives past 8 Mile and everything in the upper suburbs, you know, some urbanites and everything, and everybody behind 8 Mile going down to downtown Detroit, you know, regular Detroiters. But, you know, it generally happens where, okay, everybody's coming from the suburbs except Detroiters.

Anybody in Detroit was like, yeah, I'm going downtown. I'm going to the west side, the east side, anything like that. Everybody from the suburbs was basically like, oh, I'm going to downtown Detroit. There's really no downtown Detroit. It's just Detroit. Detroit is a big city, so you really just can't say downtown Detroit or Detroit.

I'm going to the city and it's like, you know, okay, I'm going there. It's like, I'm going there just to get like a, one of our biggest things is bagel pop. I'm going down there to get some bagel pop and then going back.

and it's like okay but you're coming there and it's like hey come here somebody's like hey how you doing you going to the baseball game and they're like you know oh my god let's keep you know let's just keep walking and it's like you know i want to turn their eyes and just keep going and it's like you know hey how'd you like the game i'm for me i'm animated i'm like you know hey how'd you like the game you know the guy could have you know jumped in the air and did a flip and caught the ball but you know it would have been cool if he did that and it's like

"Okay, why are you talking to me?" It's like, "Uh, I'm really..." Like, I'm just making conversation. I'm not like... And I have to be honest about this at times and everything, you know, I'll get it as far as like, I'm a black male. So I'm like, you know, I'm like, "Hey, how you doing?" and everything. It's like, "Oh my God." I'm like, "Oh, I'm not gonna pull out a gun and tell you to like, you know, get on the ground and get naked." I'm like, "That's just not gonna happen."

Your experience will not be you coming to Detroit, buying Faygo Pop, going back and just wearing shoes. I'm like, in your bag of Faygo Pop, that's it. I won't leave you with a pop and shoes. So...

Well, I won't tell you about a time in my youth when I watched a guy get robbed for his pop, but that's a whole other story. Just his pop. Give me your pop. It's a good looking pop. So getting back to it, man, it's been a great hour, but I want everybody to know you're going to be doing a seminar at the Detroit Conjuring Folk Magic Festival August 12th there in Detroit.

Yes, yes, yes. Why don't you tell people, I don't know if you're doing absolutely like public or private classes right now, but any appearances you're making here in the near future, any classes that's open enrollment, you know, let the audience know, man. Oh, yes, yes. For the Detroit Conjuring folk magic, I am...

greatly honored and everything to be a part of this on myself and my wife as well I like to thank Kenya Kovac and her husband as well for putting this together and you know expanding on it in such a rapid time I'm extremely grateful for that right now generally we teach classes in a capoeira Angola also batucada which is Brazilian drumming

at our location here in Detroit. The address is 18018 James Cousins Freeway in Detroit, Michigan, ZIP 48235. We teach kids classes from the ages of six to 10.

From 11 and up, that would be our teenager and adult classes. We teach those as well. We focus on learning the basics of Capoeira itself. And then we go from beginner to intermediate to advanced. And then we also have music classes as well. And which is one of our biggest hobbies.

projects for this year. On September the 16th of this year in Detroit at Adabos African Beat Museum, we're going to be hosting the first Brazilian Day Street Festival in Michigan. So...

What's happening with that, the Brazilian Day Street Festival is recognition of the Brazilian Independence Day of Brazil, you know, gaining its independence. And generally everybody throughout different countries actually has their own Brazilian Day. Some people here, you know, in the United States as well as everywhere in New York, Chicago, wherever. But it's never happened in Michigan before. And this is our year that we want to make it. It's going to become an annual festival where this year's theme is capoeira.

I'm going to be bringing my teacher, Mr. Caboquinho, here. He's going to be offering classes. We're going to have a couple of samba performers, a Brazilian batucada drumming parade, a Brazilian food kids area. It's a free event. Everybody can just come down and enjoy something for free. Awesome. Now, do you have a website set up now currently as well for your classes and things?

Yes, we do. Our website, our organization is called Creative Movement Brazil, where we also, again, we offer classes in Capoeira Angola, also Zumba and belly dance. My wife is the Zumba and belly dance instructor. And our website is the regular www.creativemovementbrazil.com.

By monthly, we actually have a free introduction class. Our next free introduction class is going to be happening in July. You can also look at us on Facebook under Creative Movement Brazil. We have a lot of things coming up for this year in our expansion in our new studio, so that's been real great.

Okay. Well, thanks a lot for joining me today, Kelvin. Full disclosure, this is pre-recorded the weekend before due to Kelvin's schedule with his live classes. So with that, I'm going to have the Illuminist take us on out with our outro music. Thanks again, Illuminist, for giving us an awesome track that we've used for years now free of charge. Everybody have a wonderful week. We will catch you next Tuesday. ♪

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