Natasha Bedingfield — on feeling the rain on your skin and life lessons from Sia
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So I'm currently traveling abroad in London right at the moment, which is why so many of my episodes have people with British accents right now.

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Hey, it's Jesse Tyler Ferguson. Being in London this season has been such an adventure, not just for me, but for my whole family. Justin and I recently packed up the kids for a whirlwind trip to Disneyland Paris, and watching them experience it all for the first time was pure magic. Of course, we also got to see the Eiffel Tower, which was what Beckett said he wanted to see when he came to London. Got to work on that geography a little bit.

These little getaways are what memories are made of, but as any parent knows, they take planning. And that's why I love Airbnb's co-hosting feature.

Hi, it's Jesse. ♪

Today on the show you know her from her hits Pocketful of Sunshine, Wild Horses and of course Unwritten. I am here on a rainy day and I'm feeling the rain on my skin because no one else is going to feel it for me and I am here to meet Natasha Bedingfield. Culturally New Zealanders, they don't go inside when it rains. They kind of just keep doing what they're doing and it's a lovely metaphor like just

Keep going. Just keep being who you are no matter what. This is Dinners on Me, and I'm your host, Jesse Tyler Ferguson. ♪

I am so excited to be in London at the same time as Natasha Bedingfield. She is passing through. She's doing a million shows this summer, and I'm so excited that she agreed to meet up with me and have lunch. I'm such a huge fan of hers. Justin is such a huge fan of hers. I love her music. I love the positivity of her music. And it's a music that I feel like has been the soundtrack for really the last 20 years of my life. I'm so excited to meet her in person.

I'm bringing Natasha to Mallow right near the Borough Market. Borough Market is incredible here in London. It's very crowded, mind you, but it has incredible food, incredible shops. It's been here since like the 1200s, which is a long time ago. Now, Borough Market has never had a plant-based restaurant until now. Mallow is the first, and I am so excited to bring my new friend, Natasha Bedingfield, to have some great plant-based food. Let's get to the conversation.

Where do you live mostly? I live in New York. Oh, you do? Okay, where in New York do you live? Westchester. Oh, nice. Near Martha Stewart. No, yeah. Martha Stewart, yeah. I've been meaning to go. I need a coffee. I'm really good friends with Martha Stewart's, like,

culinary advisor. I don't know what her exact title is, but they've been working together for like 25 years. And her name's Sarah Carey and I love her. She's one of my closest friends. At one point, she was up there doing some prep work. And she's like, just come up here. Martha's not here.

just come up and hang out with me. I was like, I feel weird going to Martha Stewart's house without her there. - I know, I actually went to Elton John's house without him there. - No. - Yeah, 'cause my, you know how Elton and David Furnish are so amazing at encouraging new artists? - Yes. - My brother had some hit songs, and then they invited me and my brother to stay the night, so we stayed at Elton's house.

Is this the one that's in the south of France? It's the one that's English. It feels like the Queen's house. But I wasn't known yet. I hadn't released anything yet. And I never actually saw Elton, but I really bonded with David Furnish. And that's when I noticed how good they are with really new talent. Oh, yeah. That's like... My brother was the one, and I was just the sibling. But they were so kind to me.

So your brother's also, I know that you performed with your siblings when you were young. Yeah, yeah. So your brother had... My brother is the one who really knocked the door down for me because he wrote, like he made music in his bedroom. So he would make his own stuff and then it found its way onto the desk of a DJ. And then there was a bidding war about him. So he's known as the father of garage music because his song is a really big...

I don't know anything about that. I have to go listen to them. You'll probably know the song. I probably do. Oh, yeah. Hello. Hi. I'm good. Thank you.

How are you doing with the menu? Have you had a chance to look at the drinks? No. I would love a coffee, please. Oh, I think I would too as well. What's the specialty? We do an amazing chai. I know that's not coffee. Oh, yeah. But the coffee is also going for chai. I'd love chai. Do you have non-dairy? We do. We have a little almond. Oat chai. Cool. You're doing an oat chai? Yeah. I'll do an oat chai as well. Can I throw a shot of espresso in there? Yeah, dirty chai. Dirty chai. Dirty chai it is.

Lovely. And have you had a chance to look at the menu at all? I haven't looked yet. That's fine. Is there anything we must try? I would definitely try the wild mushroom ravioli. Okay. I'll have that for sure. For sure, yeah. The strawberry ale and fattoush makes a nice size. That's nice, I think.

That sounds great. Yeah. Okay. Okay, so we're going to have the meat butter with some sourdough, the wild mushroom ravioli, the heirloom salad, and the gobi. Amazing. Thank you. Were you on stage, like, last night? Yeah, I was at the BBC on Friday, big weekend, and

It looked huge. Yeah, it was amazing. Like a big outdoor festival. Yeah, it was amazing. So good. And then I was at another one in Leeds the next day. Yes. I've just done four days in a row of shows. Oh my gosh. I did like eight days in a row, six shows in eight days, but all in different places. So I was in Mexico City and I was in Chicago. I've just been doing so many different things, like festivals, colleges, stuff like that. Do you still like performing live? I love it. Is it your favorite thing? I love it. I don't like the travel, but I like the performing. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah.

I'm not nervous performing, which is nice. Oh, really? Yeah. Have you ever been nervous? I usually get, like, nervous afterwards, which I don't know if that's a familiar thing, if that happens to many people, but I don't get nervous before, but I usually feel like a kind of...

afterwards. Like this thing of like, oh, that outfit was a bad choice or like, oh, what do I think I'm doing? This is a terrifying job because sometimes when you're actually up there, it's like, you know, so I kind of, my technique for not being nervous is to downplay it in my mind and be like, it's just a day at work. Yeah. But sometimes I arrive and I'm like, it was not definitely just a day at work. It was like, that was...

at the, you know, O2 arena with 80,000 people. And I'm like, so you have like retroactive anxiety about like, Oh my God, I can't believe what I did last night. Yeah. Yeah. I can understand that. Yeah. You have had that before. Do you watch your things that you do? I do. Well, I used to watch like myself on like talk shows and stuff. And now I can't do it because of that very reason that you're saying, because I'll watch myself like, Oh, why did I say it that way? Or like, so I'd rather it just like be in the past and like have it in my head.

and, you know, not have to, like, analyze it. But, like, I do watch myself. Like, I watched every episode of Modern Family, and part of it was because I just really was...

Part of it was just because I really enjoyed the people I worked with and I wanted to watch their work and I was a fan of all of them. And I was really proud of the show. But sometimes I would watch and I'd say, oh, they used that take and it's not my favorite. Or they'd cut it together strangely. Yeah, it was like an angle of your face. Because when you're trying to focus on acting well, you're not trying to focus on looking good. So it's like one angle.

Yeah, I discovered I was balding in the back of my head from watching Modern Family. I was like, what's that going on back there? Oh my God. Is that actually a thing that's happening? That's super cool. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I love Modern Family and I really think it's changed the world. I mean, I tend to agree with you. I think that it did a lot of...

Particularly your character, particularly both of you. I really think you really made a huge difference. Yeah. I'm sure you did that. We have something in common in that we both grew up in religious families. Oh, you did as well? Yeah, I was raised Roman Catholic. I went to Catholic school from grade, you know, first through high school. Wow. I went to church like every morning. Yeah.

and I sang in the church choir. - Really? Me too. I just remember noticing as a teenager that a lot of the Christian songs had sexual innuendos in them. - Yeah. - That's because I was in the like kind of very evangelical Christianity and you'd be like, "Come Lord Jesus."

Right. All those words can have double meanings. And I was like, my dirty brain. Like, I just had to stop thinking of it like that. But there's something powerful about the music side, isn't there? Yeah. Why I think all the religions use music, because it kind of takes you out of yourself and you're able to connect with other people and kind of relate to your higher self. Yeah. But we grew up with all that kind of...

very involved kids. That was all very church-based. And really feeling quite passionate about it. You know, like there was a kind of a purpose. Yeah. I just remember thinking the world was a really horrible, terrible place. And then as an adult going, oh, there's actually so much wonderfulness in the world and it isn't such a terrible place. I mean, I definitely absolutely relate to that. You know, growing up

and being raised in the Roman Catholic Church, so much of what was coming at me was stuff that scared me, obviously. Yeah, terrifying. It made me really worried about the state of my soul and what was going to happen to me. And I had a very complicated relationship with organized religion. And I think for me, and I don't know if...

I don't think this happens with a lot of people, but like I had to really sort of step away from it. And now as an adult, you know, I'm coming back towards spirituality, like on my own terms. And, you know, I found more, more peace and I found more of a, I don't know, I guess like a church within myself that feels appropriate and correct. There's an amazing priest who's,

he's not alive anymore, but his name is Father Richard Rohr. And he talks a lot about that kind of thing of like finding the parts of that religion that really were helpful. You know, I think he had a term called slaveholder Christianity. Like there's a kind of exclusive Christianity that it's like a club.

It's not really probably what Jesus would have taught. Right. And it's kind of like people who are not really in touch with their consciences because they used to do terrible things. And then they go to church on Sunday with a pure heart and kiss their children. Yeah. And then actually do the most atrocious acts. Yeah.

So, like, there's almost, like, inherent in people this denial that is so thick and so much part of hereditary that it's even hard to see. Yeah. You know? But, like, when you go through hard things in life, like someone dying or, like, you know, that's when you really do need something to sustain you because those things are so incredibly hard. And you do need prayer and you do need fellowship. I 100% agree with you. I lost my mom in November. Oh, I'm so sorry. I had such a... Thank you. I had such a...

Because I'm not religious. I don't go to church every Sunday, but that was part of my history. And I found myself going back to a lot of those roots just for peace of mind. Because when you lose someone that's so close to you, there are those questions like, where are they now? And where is their soul? And how am I going to stay connected to that person? I went through a real, I don't know, evolution with how I feel about death. And it was something that...

I feel like I had to do in that moment. Like, I don't think I could do it without having the actual loss in front of me. Like, I needed that as sort of a, um, an impetus to sort of re-

calibrate and rethink about like how my, how I, like my relationship with. Well, that's apparently again what this Father Roar was saying is like the valley of the shadow of death. That's a moment where everyone faces at some point but some people experience it much sooner but that's a moment where you discover a new part of yourself and a new connection like a deeper connection with everybody else who's experienced the same thing. Yeah. And a lot of people do

do experience when someone dies is you can actually feel the spirit leaving like there's something there's something beyond just yeah blood and guts like something there's some energy energy exchange yeah happens yeah yeah for sure it's it's amazing but it's it's horrible i mean no it's loss is very very difficult um i um i have a song called wild horses

It's a huge gay anthem. It's like so many people come up to me and say that's the song that they came out, encouraged them to come out to their parents with. For me it's like religious repression is powerful. Why did I write a song that lots of gay people feel such a resonance with? I think it's because I understand repression. What was your, oh yeah, interesting. I was going to say, what were you thinking about when you wrote Wild Horses?

Just freedom, being recklessly loving whoever you need to or want to and being, yeah, being allowed to be reckless. I don't know. Who knows, like, why you start writing a song and why sometimes you write a song for one reason and then it becomes true in many other ways. Right. Absolutely. Because it's kind of like a deeper, you're kind of channeling in a way something. Yeah.

Now for a quick break, but don't go away. When we come back, Natasha tells me about how a poem for her brother turned into her biggest hit and the double-edged sword of having success so early on in her career. Okay, be right back. This summer, I'll be spending a lot of time in New York City working on Shakespeare in the Park, which I am so excited about, but it also means I'll be away from home and Justin will be juggling the kids and the home fort, which is hectic enough without also having to worry about home security.

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Now that Beckett is five and Sully is not far behind at three, I've been thinking a lot about school options. I want to set them up for success, but also make sure they're learning in ways that actually work for who they are.

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I know you've told this story so many times, but I just find it so fascinating that, you know, Unwritten, which is one of the songs that you're most known for, was written for your brother. It was a poem for your brother. Yeah, it's not amazing. You were so young when you wrote that. Yeah, I was 21.

He was young. He was... 14? Maybe I was 20 and he was 14, yeah. Yeah, it was a birthday present to my brother. And even like 20 years later, it's that age group that keeps on rediscovering the song. I mean, so many graduations play it. Yeah, totally. If you look on Spotify, it's mostly 17 to 25 right now that's playing it. I mean, that lyric that you were sort of talking about, about the rain, it's such a...

evocative lyric and it's one of the things that's most quoted from that song but I mean saying feel the rain on your skin no one else can feel it for you is very powerful. Did you see when Drew Barrymore was like standing in the rain? It's called brain talk. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But that's what made me think of it. She's like go out in the rain and feel it. You have to go out in the rain. It's the most wonderful thing. There's also some funny ones where people are like Natasha Baneville you...

like basically you suck because this is not pleasant because it's like freezing cold. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's not for everyone. It's also like my family comes from New Zealand which rains every day. Yes. And so I realized that when I was in New Zealand at Christmas that culturally New Zealanders they don't go inside when it rains. Like they kind of just

keep doing what they're doing. And it's a lovely metaphor, like, just keep going, just keep being who you are no matter what. Yeah. Even, like, when you've... Like, I mean, I've done so much therapy, but, like, people who encourage you to feel all your emotions and feel them, like...

feel the anger, let it burn through you. Like don't block it out. Like all of those things are really very powerful for growth. Yeah. When you create something at such a young age and your first album was, you know, so successful and had these, this huge hit with Unwritten. Yeah.

Do you remember, I mean, and it's easier when you're younger because I feel like I let pressure roll off of me when I was younger. Like I had, I just had no fear. I was like, next thing, bring it on. Yeah. And as an adult, you

When you create something or make something that's really good, now I'm sort of saddled with immediate, like, oh God, what next? Will I be able to top that or will I even be able to match that? Do you remember having any feelings like that when you wrote your first songs and they were so popular and how to keep up with this thing you've created? Yeah, my second album in England was a flop.

I wrote a song that was really funny. It was called I Want to Have Your Babies. Songwriting is really fun. I co-write with people and we feel like we're in SNL. We're just writing bits all day. And we write a lot of funny songs. We wrote one song my first time called Size Matters. But not how you think. We just kind of love playing with a double entente. So this one song was I Want to Have Your Babies. And it was all about what women are really thinking when they're on a date.

trying to find the father of their kids, of course. Like, you're just looking at their eyelashes and going, wouldn't it be great if my kid could have those eyelashes? But the British radios, they banned it on Radio 2 and they thought it was going to encourage young women to go out and have babies. Like, I'm like, you're just completely missing the point.

That's also such an overreaction. It's so weird. So, so weird. And so I went away to America and I added like seven new songs. And one of them was Pocket Full of Sunshine and Love Like This. Huge hit. And those end up being great. But that was a hard feeling to feel like, you know, you have a hit and then your label is like, by the way, just to let you know, anything less than number one isn't a hit to us.

So just a number six, that's a failure to us. I feel like one of the reasons I connect so deeply with your music and so many people do is that there's a lightness to it and there's a positivity to it. And kind of at a time when...

So many writers are writing about yearning for love or loss of love or, I don't know, just heavier topics. There's a lot of heartbreak. If there's no pain, they're not necessarily interested in writing about it. And I know that some of your songs do have that pain in it, but I think that you do lead with a positivity that feels, I don't know, it just feels very...

I don't know, it feels very front-footed and it just feels very... It feels very positive. Thank you. Do you... Does that... I have to write a lot of sad songs to get to the happy ones. Yeah. To be honest. Like, you just... I write hundreds of songs that don't get used, but I think resonating is the most important thing. Yeah. So for me...

I guess the more, for some reason, the more positive stuff resonates more. Right, right. I mean, you're now a mother. How would you describe your songwriting now as, you know, a parent? And has it changed? I don't know if it's changed. I think it's deepened. I think, like, I just don't have any writer's block anymore. Like, I think it helps you make decisions quicker. Don't you think? You're like, this is my valuable time. Right. I could be spending this time with my kid.

Yeah. So this better be amazing. Just my focus is all over the map now. I don't have the focus that I used to have. Yeah, me too. Do you have mom brain? I do have mom brain. Yeah, me too. Yeah, you don't sleep enough. Yeah. And how did you meet your husband? Okay, I met my husband in...

in Nashville in the Opryland, in a Gibson guitar center in the Opryland Mall. Oh, interesting. What was he doing there? I was doing a radio showcase and he was a friend of my friend and he came along to watch. Oh, okay. I think it was like we hung out all night with a bunch of friends and the next day I was just asking my friend, I'm like, was he hot? I think he was hot. Should I stay in touch? And then we started texting and

And then the rest is history. We've been together like 18 years or something. Yeah. And he's a director? So he is a multi-talented person. He does a lot of things. He does real estate. He does directing. He makes music. He writes. Incredible. He doesn't have like a one... He's not like a one talent kind of person. Yeah. He's annoyingly good at everything. God.

He can play instruments better than me. But he doesn't go around saying that he's a musician. It's incredible. Have you guys ever played together? Yeah, I mean, just around the house. Like, we just play. Our house is very musical. But it's him playing the music, not me. Yeah, we've written...

Is he a good songwriter? Yeah, he's great. He has a record in Denmark. He does. An artist, he wrote all the music for him. Oh, no way. Yeah, an artist called Ora Dion. That's incredible. Hi, how are you? That looks incredible. And the strawberry fattoush to go with that. Thank you. That looks so good. Should we put it on a different plate as well? I'm going to bring you some side dishes for that. Oh, yeah, great.

Have you ever had a massage of your vocal cords? No. I had that. I know that sounds a bit dirty. No, it's good. That's a double meaning right there. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, maybe I have, actually. No, but somebody actually... Thank you. You go up in there, and it actually warmed your voice up. It's kind of incredible. Yeah, all the way in there. I definitely... One time on Modern Family, I...

I stifled a sneeze. I covered a sneeze because I was trying to save a take. And then for the rest of the day, I was like, I was getting very raspy. And I was like, this is very strange. And then I basically started like losing my voice and like whistle tones were coming out of my mouth. Wow. And so I went to the doctor and he scoped me.

with a little camera down my throat and I had completely ruptured one of my vocal cords. - No! Wow. - And I-- - Like hemorrhaged? - Hemorrhaged, yeah. It was like full of blood. - That's horrible, wow. - And so they were like, "You have to go on vocal rest for two weeks or else you're gonna do a severe damage." I mean, I really couldn't even make any noise. It would've been crazy for me to even try.

But, you know, on stage or like, you know, when I've done shows on Broadway, specifically musicals, I mean, they're really good about like, yeah, yeah, take care of yourself, take care of yourself. In Hollywood, they're not so much that way. Like they weren't really understanding like what vocal rest was. And they thought I could sort of like bake my way through it and just be quiet in between takes. And I was like, no, no, I like literally cannot say anything. So I...

I had to completely be quiet for two weeks and I had to still shoot because we had an actress in who was in just for the week.

and we had to shoot the stuff with her. And so I basically just stood there and mouthed my lines while someone off camera said my words. And then I had to go back and try and match it two weeks later. It was a disaster. That's terrible. When that episode pops up, I'm like, oh, I look like a bad ventriloquist. It's terrible. I'm going to go through now and try and find it. It's awful. Who is that? You must always get asked, but who is...

The person in the show that is, like, your best friend or the state in time. Oh, God. I don't think there's a single... I have such different relationships with all of them. I mean, Julie Bowen and I have a very special relationship. She really does feel like a sibling. I'm really close with the kids. I'm close with my daughter. I go to, like, see her school plays. Oh, that's lovely. But that relationship feels different than what I have with Julie. Yeah. Sophia's, like, when I text her, like, you know...

random videos of me like who are you dating now why am I not getting any information I treat her like a like a cool cousin yeah yeah yeah Ty Burrell and I you know we're like brothers yeah Ed O'Neill really is like a father figure to me so then you stay close then that's so cool yeah I'm close with everyone

Now for a quick break, but don't go away. When we come back, Natasha tells me about an embarrassing moment with Sia and what it's like to have Unwritten continue to go viral after all these years. Okay, be right back.

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I'm Courtney Act. Many of you may know me from RuPaul's Drag Race, Celebrity Big Brother, Dancing with the Stars, or probably my hit album, Colliders.

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And we're back with more Dinners on Me. Have you ever, like, directed? Have you directed or written an episode or anything like that? I've never did that, no. No. I think I would be a good director. Directing in general. I am going to direct. I feel like you would. I actually am going to direct. I feel like it. That's something I'm definitely going to do. But I never directed an episode of the show. Do you write? Are you a writer? I write a little bit. It's so funny when you're talking about lyric writing. I wanted to write...

Oh, wow. Oh, wow, that's cool. Yeah.

And the lyrics were so bad. And I still could play it on the piano. Actually, I'm friendly with Sia. Oh, I love Sia too. I love her so much. I was at her house with some friends and she was like, does anyone play the piano? I was like, I'm going to play you the song I wrote when I was 14. It's amazing. And I kind of forgot how it went and I was really embarrassed because I was nervous. I was playing Sia's piano and singing for her.

I have a video of me playing because Justin immediately took out his phone and started recording my husband. And she's sort of standing behind me like a very supportive mother who's not super into it. That's very creative. Yeah, but I was not a very good lyricist. But you had the passion. Yeah, exactly. And I've never finished that musical. I was late for a session with...

Sia one time. Were you? It was before she had her whole pop thing. Was it when she was just writing music? I was a fan of her when she was in Zero Seven and when she had her own solo, Sia Furlow stuff. I've been following her for years. And then I wrote a few songs with her. And one time I was late. This is before Chandelier and all of that. And she... I think I was probably half an hour late. And she was like, I just decided to have a day off.

If it's not that important to you, then it's not important to me and I'll just give myself a day off. I just was always late. I was always late. You should have very promptly here. I was like, had only had my career for about a year or two, so I was a brand new artist. So you were in your early 20s. I was number one. You know, I was busy. And then a lot of times your schedule gets packed, packed,

Yeah. So you're kind of a bit late because it gives you a little extra time. Okay. Have you gotten better with that? A little bit, but not. Now I just tell people to lie to me what time to come. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I do that. I have some friends when I just don't have to do that way. Yeah. That's the kind of lie I don't mind. Yeah. But it was a good lesson. It was like a kind of like, oh, oh, wow. Did you ever have a makeup session with her? Yeah, yeah. And we wrote some amazing stuff. Oh, good. But it never released yet. Not yet. Oh, really? Mm-hmm.

Oh, interesting. I actually went back and listened to it. There's one song that feels like a huge hit. Really? When did you write it with her? Super relevant, especially now, since after all the things that the world's been through. Honestly, I can't believe it. It's in the archives, and I was just like, this song would be a hit. So you wrote it a long time ago. Like 19 years ago. It would be a hit if I put it out right now. Will you? I could. Do we need to call Sia and make sure that we can... Yeah. No, we could.

It's gotta be so weird. Like when you wrote Unwritten, social media wasn't even a thing. I know. Yeah. And now you've got to witness it, like go through, you know, obviously it was the theme song of The Hills. Yeah. Which, you know, which a lot of people came to you through just being a fan of that show. It must be so weird, you know, 20 something years later.

to see it have this whole other life with a whole new generation of people on this platform that never existed. We didn't have phones in our hands 20 years ago. Yeah, I mean, you couldn't put a picture of yourself out without checking with the record company, like, is this picture approved or...

Am I wearing enough makeup? But, yeah, I remember when YouTube first started and people started singing people songs, like miming to people. We were like, this is so funny. You know, like, I remember. Do you remember that? Yeah, yeah, yeah. And then Vine. Yeah, Vine. So the first time Unwritten went viral after being, it was like six years after it was released when it was a kid in a car and he's singing Unwritten as he's got a traffic light out the window. And that went viral. Yeah.

Ed Sheeran just recreated that, actually. Oh, he did? Yeah, because it's one of those ones that people remember. Yeah, it's amazing. I actually do like TikTok because I feel there are so many different communities on TikTok. There's quite a lot of positivity and it's not just dance. I'm not really a dance moves person. When I first came out 20 years ago,

every pop girl in England was dancing pole dancing but like dancing and miming like that was what a pop music was and I was like no I'm singing live and I'm not doing any dance moves and that was in itself such a battle like what are you thinking like why aren't you doing dance because I'm just like that's not the I can't mime I just pretend I can't do it

When you say miming, you mean like lip-syncing? Lip-syncing. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Using a recorded voice and pretending. Right, right, right. Who are some of the people that you, like young artists that are coming up now that you're admiring? Oh, yeah. I love Olivia Dean. I don't know her. So great. Such a great voice. And there's an artist called Mauro who's from Portugal. Okay. His voice is so silky. So wonderful. Oh, my God.

I love Lola Young, super fun.

and real and honest and I really also love Chapel Roan. Chapel Roan's great. I play Chapel Roan before I get ready for my shows sometimes. It really puts me in a good mood. She's an amazing singer so I can sing along, belt along to all her songs. Yeah, yeah. Have you ever met her? No. I haven't either. I'd love to meet her. I'm dying to meet her. Yeah. I'm dying to hear the song that you wrote with Sia. I know. It's so beautiful. It's called Build It Up. Oh, it's powerful.

like once you've been through something devastating and that you're gonna just keep building it up brick by brick. It's truly a stunning song. Why have you not released it yet? Well the label just chose not to use it and then I just found it again recently and was like this song is genius. So I think I should put it on my record. I think you should. But I got a bunch of new songs. I'm very excited.

They're like my babies, the new songs. Yeah, I bet. When is new music coming out for you? I don't know exactly when, because it's kind of like I have to have the bandwidth to really promote it. But ideally, as soon as possible, it would be great to put new music out. Yeah, yeah, for sure. And do music videos. Yeah.

Do you like that? Should I get all my famous friends in there? Yeah. I did a Taylor Swift video. I'll do one of your videos. You did? You did Taylor Swift? I did a Taylor Swift video. Oh my gosh, that would be amazing. You need to calm down. Can you please be in one of my videos? I will absolutely be in one of your videos. No one ever asked me to do fun stuff like that. I would love that. That would be so cool. Oh, Betty Who? Yeah, I love Betty Who. I was in a Betty Who video too. Amazing. Did you like it? Was it a good experience? Betty Who and Taylor Swift. Those are the only two people who asked me. It was great. Well, I'm asking you now. I'll absolutely be in your video. Amazing. That's so cool. Um...

Do you like doing that part of it? Yeah. The creative part. Mm-hmm. The parts that remind you that this is art, you know? Mm-hmm. And there's parts that make you feel like it's a brand or... Yeah. You know, there's parts... And then you go, oh, yeah, this is art. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Do you feel...

Like what? No, I was going to ask you so many things too because you've asked me so many things. You can ask me anything. I'm so interested when you said that you grew up in the church. Do you feel healed from the kind of difficult parts of that? Like from having to... Yeah, it's an interesting question. Yeah, like does it still hit you sometimes, the shame or the like... The shame doesn't hit me. I get... Remember that moment, shame, shame. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Game of Thrones. Yeah, that's right, that's right. It's not shame. It's more, and I hate to hold resentment because that's not helping anyone and it's something I'm working through, but I do have a bit of resentment toward just the environment that I was placed in at such an early age. Being a gay kid, it's a very difficult thing. I have so much empathy for kids who are growing up in a place where they don't feel, like are part of the country where they don't feel like they have a community. It's one of the reasons why I do love

what you're just saying about the social media and TikTok and how you have a community. You can find people in any part of the world that you can relate to. And I think that's really important. It's one of the great things about social media. Yes. And things like, you know, podcasts and television shows. And I'm so proud of Modern Family. You know, these stories will reach people in places that they need to be reached. I didn't have any of that growing up. I had...

Yeah, you didn't. I had the environment that was around me and, you know, limited resources. I didn't have cable TV, you know, and I didn't... I had a very microscopic sense of the world. And so...

It was hard. It was really hard growing up. Did the environment make you feel like there was something wrong with you or that you had to pretend to be something? I was never ashamed of myself, which I'm really proud of myself for not being ashamed. That's good. I did feel like I had to really keep a secret, though. And any sort of exploration of...

the LGBTQ community felt really wrong and dirty and that's what I resent. I didn't feel like it was, but I felt like any opportunity I took to look into it was going to get me in trouble. Yeah. So any outreach that I might have given, reached out for, anyone I would have reached out to would have felt wrong. Yeah. And that I resent. Rejected. Yeah. I resent that. And I...

I have incredibly supportive parents, but at the time, you know, they were... They were struggling with it, and I don't blame them at all. Like, I think, you know, I think growth is really beautiful. Yeah. I think everyone has...

Everyone should feel like they can grow. Like, we should never feel like we are the people who we are. Like, we're not raised to be a certain way. And both my parents did incredible work on themselves and really understood so much about who I was. And they came so far with that. Did they, like, was it kind of that thing, like, this is what boys do, like, kind of...

be a man? Like, was it that kind of thing? You know, it's interesting you ask because I was sent to a psychiatrist when I was young. It's almost like they needed a medical professional to tell them that I was gay. Wow. Even though, I mean, like, the signs were all there and they could have just asked me. But it was a secular part. Yeah, yeah, yeah. That's good. But I remember the psychiatrist was,

And I didn't know at the time that that's what it was, but it was pretty clear. You know, I'd go in and play with this person, and they would have, like, Barbies, and they'd have, like, G.I. Joes. And, like, they're like, what do you want to play with? And, like, I remember, like, that was just—they would just observe me and watch me play. And I was, like, always playing—there was a board game called Life. Mm-hmm. Yeah. And I was, like, always interested in playing Life. I love that. And they're like, well—sort of, like, sits right in the middle, doesn't it? You're a, like, serious kid. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

They weren't getting the answers that they wanted because I wasn't attracted to Barbies or G.I. Joes. Like, those weren't... Because you were a kid. Yeah, I was a kid. I was interested in, like, colouring. They're like, what are you colouring? I was like, I'm just colouring a house. So you were almost overanalyzing at that point. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But, yeah, I think that they...

They needed answers. They needed someone to sort of tell them how to navigate that. But after I left and I went to New York to study acting and I became more of like who I ended up becoming, like I found my community and I found my people that I was able to open up to that allowed me to be more open with them. And, you know, we met somewhere in the middle.

And, you know, my parents were both at my wedding to my husband. That's so good. Obviously, I told you my mom passed away, but she loved her grandkids, and my dad loves his grandkids. They really are wonderful. They were wonderful parents, and they are wonderful parents. But it took a while, and I think a lot of it was the environment I grew up in, and a lot of it was the church. I mean, it was hard. Yeah, but even in Hollywood, I feel like you were...

a lot of times gay characters were played by straight guys. Yeah. Like, I feel like you actually were able to bring the authenticity that hadn't been allowed either, even within Hollywood. I was very proud to be an out gay man playing an out gay man on TV, yeah. Man, I thank you on behalf of everyone. Thank you, that's very sweet, thank you. Because that's how I feel, is that the gay community has just brought so much freedom to me. Uh-huh.

and so many people because it's just, it's all about authenticity and, you know,

powerful, you know? Yeah, I mean, it's why, I mean, they resonate so much with your music. Yeah. Yeah, you have a huge LGBTQ fan base. I really do. Yeah, and I love, and I feel like the only crowd who really understands what I'm singing about for some reason and who kind of care about the words, you know? Yeah. We're not the only crowd, but there's a deep, there's a deep understanding that I feel. In a very deep way, yeah. Yeah.

It's so nice meeting you. You too. I'm such a fan of yours. Thank you. Me too. Likewise. Thank you for doing this. It was a pleasure. Thank you for having me on. Absolutely. I'm thrilled you could do this. This episode of Dinners on Me was recorded at Mallow in Borough Market in London's Southwark neighborhood.

Next week on Dinners on Me, you know him from queer TV favorites like Looking and American Horror Story NYC. It's Russell Tovey. We get into growing up queer in 90s Essex. His new exciting project called Plainclothes. And we get emotional talking about special furry family members.

And if you don't want to wait until next week to listen, you can download that episode right now by subscribing to Dinners On Me Plus. As a subscriber, not only do you get access to new episodes one week early, you'll also be able to listen completely ad-free. Just click Try Free at the top of the Dinners On Me show page on Apple Podcasts to start your free trial today.

Dinners on Me is a production of Sony Music Entertainment and A Kid Named Beckett Productions. It's hosted by me, Jesse Tyler Ferguson. It's executive produced by me and Jonathan Hirsch. Our showrunner is Joanna Clay. Our producer in the UK is Grace Laker. Our associate producer is Alyssa Midcalf. Sam Baer engineered this episode. Hans Dale Shee composed our theme music. Our head of production is Sammy Allison.

Special thanks to Tamika Balance-Kalasny and Justin Mikita. I'm Jesse Tyler Ferguson. Join me next week.