Web3's impact on brands, including NFTs, tokenization, and engagement solutions
35:42 Share

The amount of offer within the so-called Web3 native space has skyrocketed, meaning every single brand was trying to target the same customers. And it's still a very small audience. And therefore, when there's a lot of offer and not so much demand, we know what happened. If you get yourself a SmartLayer pass, then you're joining our open loyalty program and you will get a series of surprise and delight experiences by holding this pass in your Apple and Google wallet. And it will connect you to a bunch of web-based experiences that will blow your mind.

The DMX Co-Podcast. The podcast with insights for the digital industry. And with that, welcome to the DMX Co-Podcast, dear listeners. My name is Alex Wunschel, your podcast host, and I got my first taste of the web with Netscape Navigator 1.1. And over the last 28 years, there have been several developments that have changed the web I discovered in 1995.

It changed the way how we interact with it, how we communicate with each other. And sometimes it changed the web in how it affects our daily lives. The developments around Web3, NFT, blockchain, crypto are certainly some of the most profound improvements we have seen in a long time. But what happened to these improvements?

Let's take a trip through the current Web3 landscape. Let's have a look at the Web3 status. And we brought two brilliant guides with us.

Our first guide is Diego, Diego Borgo. Our podcast listeners will know Diego from the episode with Tim Walter from Volkswagen about Web3 and NFT for Brands. One of the most listened to episodes of our podcast, by the way. Diego works with 1,400, 500 brands to enter Web3 and the metaverse. He's a passionate public speaker and AI enthusiast.

And the second guide is Brent Annells from Sydney, Australia. Brent has not only worked at tech giants like Uber and Facebook, but he has also seen the shifts from Web 1 to Web 2 and now Web 3 with many different startups he has been involved with. Brent is the founder and CMO of SmartTokenLabs.com, building bridges between Web 2 and Web 3.

Let the journey begin. First, let's have a look at the Web3 developments in the last 12th month. And then let's find out how we can build bridges to this next web, the tokenized web. So hi, Diego and hi, Brent. How are you? Hey, Alex. Great to be on the show. Hey, Alex. Thanks for having me back. So we have two time zones as guests. One is Germany. I think, Diego, you're in Germany right now? I'm in Germany right now, yeah. Where?

where are you located um i'm usually in the south about an hour south of nuremberg so deep in the bavaria forest there you go and then there is sydney brent you are located in sydney i am i mean mainly on the beach which is uh just 20 minute ferry ride from sydney cbd so we talk about web 3 nfts and the current developments um on this topic because

One year ago, Diego, you were a guest on our podcast with Tim Walter from Volkswagen. It was July 2022. And then came DMX Core in September.

With a big hall, a big stage focusing Web3, a big party, a fat party with all the Web3 community and the natives, I would call them. And despite all the buzz, everyone seemed to be waiting and betting for the big breakthrough in the near future, so kind of an iPhone moment.

But then AI took over the party. It came more like a chat TPT moment and it became more quiet around Web3, crypto and NFT. You work a lot with companies on Web3 strategies. What have you seen what we haven't seen in the last months?

In the last months or in the last year since we last spoke. Oh, you take the last year, yeah. It's been a lot. I think that what has changed and sort of like, you know, moved away a lot from since we last spoke is...

If you go back to 2021, December, when Adidas and Nike started this whole bull run for brands, especially Fortune 500 brands in the Web3 space, the use case that was created back then was super clear. We were looking into NFTs as an asset class. What does that mean is that basically brands were issuing an NFT that customers or fans or speculators could buy in.

And that was basically the main use case, right? You buy an NFT, you sell an NFT, you trade an NFT, and you move forward. More and more brands start doing that, right? After 2021, 350 plus brands have now entered that space, you know, within Web3. But majority of them have sort of like played against the same playbook, if you will, right? They play against the same sort of like idea and notion that the main use case you can use in Web3 are NFTs.

And the main use case in NFTs for brands is basically that sort of like digital asset play. So with that, we started seeing within especially this last year that a lot of brands are not now being able to deliver against the strategy anymore. And there are a couple of motives on why. And, you know, if you see...

The space overall from a cryptocurrency perspective, which unfortunately Web3 is still very tied to the volatility of Bitcoin, Ethereum and other coins. The market has changed immensely. We are in a bear market right now for a minute. And back there obviously was the bull market. Everything was selling super easy and everybody could make a lot of money like Adidas made 24 million in 24 hours. So that has changed.

The amount of offer within the so-called Web3 native space has a skyrocket, meaning every single brand was trying to target the same customers. And it's still a very small audience, right? You could literally put that in a stadium right now. There's a million wallets active right there in Web3. And I have eight wallets. I don't know how many wallets you guys got, but that definitely means that it's not unique users, right? So within that space, all brands were targeting the same group, right?

And therefore, when there's a lot of offer and not so much demand, we know what happens. So I think that's in very short the summary what has happened so far since we last spoke. And the difference now is that a lot of brands are trying to figure out what is next for them, right? Since this playbook doesn't work anymore, since this use case is not what we should be deploying against anymore, what's next?

And that's where I've been spending most of this year trying to figure out and working alongside with, you know, different tech providers, different companies, different people that are working within this industry, trying to find ways on which we can start writing a new playbook. Right. So what's next for brands? How can we look into serving their problems and tapping into opportunities in a space that we all understand that's going to be where, you know, the next billion of people are headed within the Internet?

So it seems to me that we have to leverage Web 2 people into Web 3 economy, I think. Where exactly was the thinking error of big brands thinking that there is big money to make in Web 3 next to just thinking, okay, building an asset class is the big win?

I think that the main issue here is trying to target just one specific core group, right? So everybody was like, forget about the millions and billions of fans that we already have. And let's try to talk to an entire new audience that, you know, we think is the only audience we should be talking with.

So when you see major brands that by strategy have decided to do not engage and communicate with our already existing customer base because they understood it would be too hard to get them to understand what Web3 is about, I think that that strategy has been one of the main motives on why so many brands have failed, right? Because even people that are already part of the brand don't

were in Web3 and were not even connected or communicated or not even sort of like had a space to play, right? So I think that's where one big stretch happened. The second one is what I said before, right? Is an audience that is not necessarily large

And everybody trying to target them just created this huge amount of offer in a space that doesn't have enough demand. So that's sort of like basic laws of economy right there, right? And I think the third thing is that majority of the plays that those brands have done were not compelling at all, right? You see some brands trying to just like print NFTs at scale or just do some whatever collectible, hoping that people would buy and become their quote-unquote community, right?

where at the end of the day, what you really want to do is either solve existing business problems or tap into new opportunities that the current technology doesn't provide, right? And a lot of times, especially within any NFT craze that we've seen within these last two years, majority of the play were NFTs as the product instead of the enabler, right? So everybody's trying to sell NFTs, everybody's trying to mint NFTs, everybody's trying to trade NFTs.

instead of looking at that technology as an enabler of a better experience, as an enabler of creating new ways on which you can connect with the customers, right? And I think that's what was sort of like the overarching issue within it because as soon as the technology becomes the product, the only people that are going to care about that

are the technologists, right? Which are the Web3 native deep down in the rabbit hole of tweeters and those places. But again, that audience is not large enough for, you know, building the next 1 billion revenue stream that every brand is looking for. Mm-hmm.

Maybe a solution could be to look for good use cases. And I think one of the use cases Brent brings to the podcast, because Brent is founder of smarttokenlabs.com, you're building smart token bridges from blockchain to beyond, which sounds interesting. And smart token labs is creating a new standard for tokenized future. So let's get right to it with a simple explanation of the tokenization of the web and

What are tokens? What are small tokens? And why should they be a use case for Web3 in practice? Yeah, okay, great questions. At its simplest form, and if we look at tokens historically, you know, tokens are a digital proof of ownership. And so effectively, they're an asset. And the first...

Iterations of blockchain-based tokens are fungible and non-fungible tokens, and they're basically currencies and collectibles. So they're things we can trade. And that's part of the issue, I think, with NFTs is collectibles. People got something. I could prove I owned something, a piece of digital art, and the first time I could verifiably prove that only I owned it. And therefore, it created a trading capability around it, which led to this sort of like rampant speculation around this new class of digital assets.

And I think the, as Diego's really, really succinctly pointed out, that was appealing to a certain group and a certain audience. Excuse me, but...

That audience is relatively small. And I think the next wave of tokenization sees tokens evolve to become much more like applications and enablers. And it starts to move tokens into a space where they're no longer securities or assets, but they function much more like an application. They live between, they sit in a user's hands and

And what they can do is they can carry things like my preferences, my privileges, my privacy, and they can go with me as I visit things like web services and they can unlock and make possible experiences for me that weren't previously possible. So that's kind of the next stage of tokenization, we believe. And now that's still technology. And I think this is part of the issue, right? Yeah.

Diego often says this, right? Brands don't have a Web3 problem. They have growth problems, loyalty problems, and engagement problems. And if the tech can help with growth, engagement, or loyalty problems, then you start to create use cases which are appealing at a mass level. So in loyalty, for example, a token that – I'll give you two examples in both loyalty and gaming.

They're both mass application areas. And if your points become a smart token, then your points can function in an interoperable way. So I may have points. If I tokenize points, everybody would think about interoperability, about basically trading my loyalty points. But instead, if I have points from McDonald's from buying burgers over time,

and I'm able to go to another third-party brand and redeem those points for rewards or discounts or offers from that third-party brand, then suddenly those points that I have have far improved utility. And if those points are a smart token and they have things embedded into them, such as a portable claim function or a portable redeem function,

Then when I turn up on a booking site or a hotel site or a retail site that wants to recognise me as a McDonald's customer and wants to let me use those excess points that I don't want to use to claim for burgers at the moment, I want to claim on a holiday, then that smart token as a point enabler will be able to be unlocked on those third-party sites. Or if I apply it to gaming, for example, I might have a sword in a game. Hmm.

And if that sword is a smart token, and let's just say I've got armor and it's powered down, my armor is down at 10% level instead of 100%. I could take, as a token, I could visit McDonald's and McDonald's could choose as a reward to me to top up my power on my armor, which they can do at a token-to-token level.

which is interoperability in gaming and suddenly brands have a way to connect with gamers where I'm adding value and utility to a gamers I actually improve the function of their in-game assets right and instead of there's a mass audience around gaming

And McDonald's today is like most brands. If I turn up in Roblox or FIFA, I basically I'm on the billboards on the side of the game as I'm driving along in the game. I see McDonald's or Pepsi or Coca-Cola fly by on a billboard, right? Old school advertising applied to a new world. But instead, if the gaming object is interoperable,

And as a gamer, I can go and visit McDonald's and I can get my gaming armor topped up by them as a reward. That's a totally different way for McDonald's to participate within the gaming environment, something that I love doing, adding value to me, strengthening loyalty or engagement with their brand.

So they're the sorts of things that smart tokens will enable. It's got nothing to do with selling the token. It's got nothing to do with trading it. It's got nothing to do with securitization as assets. It's all about enablers of amazing experiences which make it better for the user, better for the brand, better for the third parties.

So what exactly is the difference between NFTs and smart tokens? So when do tokens get smart? Is the NFT the base? Yeah, so either a fungible or non-fungible token can be a smart token. Basically, it's got a programmable interface wrapped around it.

And that programmable interface can connect to both the blockchain layer, the smart contract layer, but it also can connect to the Web2 layer and Web2 services. So it's basically composability in functions and web services. So it can connect to both the blockchain layer and the web services layer. And that interface can do things like add a claim function or a redeem function. Or if you turn up on an Uber, on an,

uber application for to become an uber driver you can carry your your insurance smart token into the online signup process and uber can record the uber website can recognize when you're in the signup funnel that you don't have usage-based insurance for for uber driving and you can automatically top up your insurance while you're in the uber signup flow because you've got this portable top-up function as a wrapper around your your existing token

So any token can become a smart token if it's got that programmable interface. So you have to bring a lot of player to one table to integrate these smart tokens on different Web2 services, or is there an open standard?

Yeah, it's a really good question. So we've developed TokenScript as a way to create this programmable interface. And typically you'll have three parties. You'll have the token issuer, the token user, and then the third party. What we've done is we've just stood up SmartLayer Network, which is a decentralized services network, which will operate basically like if you think about a layer two scaling solution that's meant to scale transaction volume for blockchains, SmartLayer Network is basically

It's basically like a scaling solution where we host these smart tokens. We make it easy for token issuers to issue a smart token. We make it easy to host these smart tokens on behalf of the users. And then we make it easy for third parties to plug in. So it creates a new layer. It's what we think is the missing utility and accessibility layer that brings all this rich functionality. I do have a wallet on my phone or where do I store the tokens?

Yeah, most people have. I mean, smart tokens can function as both on-chain tokens and off-chain tokens. So they can actually live in your Google and Apple wallet as an attestation. So that's an off-chain token that can still have that sort of functionality. If it's an on-chain token, it's going to live in your wallet. It just reminds me a little bit of Payback. Do you know Payback? A system you can collect bonus points by shopping different stores and gain some points and then spend it on different things.

Yeah. American Express, I think, they own Payback. Yeah. And so one of the challenges of that is the integration challenge. So with those sorts of models, basically if American Express is issuing that, then they have to go and sign up all these third parties and they have two issues they have to resolve. One is privacy, so PII data sharing, and the other is database integration. Okay.

So the token-centric model resolves both of those issues. It makes it incredibly easy where basically the third party that wants to recognize the token just has to install like a token negotiator. It can recognize the token you hold. And then the PII, so you don't have to build a database integration for that.

and the user carries the token to the third party and the token represents the rights or preferences or privileges. And that resolves the PII data sharing. So Visa isn't sharing that data with the third party

provider of services the token holder is they're taking their token and and having it recognized and recognize what what rights or preferences they have or points they hold that sort of thing makes it easy to remove those challenges okay understood you mentioned examples like like gaming or um signing up to uber or booking the uber ride do you have another example where smart tokens are already used and were integrated yeah yeah we've got a few examples so um

The most relevant to closest to those examples I've given you is we've stood up a solution called permissionless perks for large crypto events. I know you guys run a very, very large event yourselves. And so basically we've done this for DEF CON 6. We're doing it at Istanbul Blockchain Week next week, at Shanghai Blockchain Week the week after. And basically everybody who holds a ticket. Yeah.

we generate an off-chain token, an attestation of the ticket, and it's via email. So as a ticket holder, you get a link in email, which generates, and when you click it, it generates a cryptographic proof that lives in your browser that you hold a ticket.

And then on the other side of that, there's a marketplace of third-party perk providers. And so for DEVCON 6, there were 40 of these third-party service providers. They're all providing offers, rewards, benefits to the conference attendees. Now, in this case, they're recognising that what they know about the conference attendee is they're high-end Ethereum developers. There's 6,000 of them. They're a super high-value audience. I'm willing to offer a perk or reward or benefit to those people because I know that thing about them.

And basically this marketplace that stood up, it does exactly what I said before. There's no – DEVCON doesn't have to share with the third-party providers any proof of ticket ownership. So I'm not sharing your private information with the – because it's embedded in the token.

And I'm not required to do any database integration because basically the third-party providers are just standing up individual web pages that basically token gate the tokens into them. So we've done that for – we've got about 10 conferences that are running that. So it's a really incredibly simple way to –

to an attendee. Sounds pretty cool. So smarttokenlabs.com or smartlayer.network is the address to turn to. Smartlayer.network. Yeah, I signed up and I'm struggling with the Discord channel right now. I have to go. Is that right? A lot of buzz over there. There's a lot of people. 195,000 people in three weeks. Yeah, okay. That's why I'm struggling. Mm-hmm.

But looking at the signage of the countries, I think I didn't see any German participants. So where do people come from? Oh,

Well, it's pretty broad. I mean, there's a lot from Indonesia. There's a lot from the Philippines, quite a few from America. It's really taking off in Korea and Japan. I mean, we only launched three and a half weeks ago. So you will see that we've got that smart pass you can create. I don't know if you've done that and you can accrue points by completing quests. 750,000 people have created a smart pass in three and a half weeks. Wow. Wow.

Okay, so we really have to deep dive into that one. Yeah, Diego, you already know smart tokens and smart token labs. What do you think about? Will this be kind of a solution for a lot of Web3 strategies and questions of brands?

I think that what is exciting here, I mean, Brent just did a terrific job on displaying use cases. And that's a motto that I've been pushing so hard within our industry as well is we have to show people what is possible, not tell them, right? So the show them, tell mentality, I think, is what is that. All brands are waiting for the next big slide with big numbers, with big references to put in front of their board or to unlock resources, right?

All those major brands, if you look at Fortune 500, I engage with at least 50 of them on a monthly basis. And I would say that 70% to 80% of them have now either a separate Web3 Studio team or a fully dedicated Web3 Studio team. Nobody's playing around within those brands with the opportunity that's at stake right now. I think the biggest challenge we're having right now is what can we do?

Right. How can we do that? And that's what I started by saying that sort of like next playbook of possibilities. And if you look at sort of like the evolution of tokens in Web3, it's quite clear where this is headed. Right. You have the first wave with currencies, obviously Bitcoin being invented in 2009 and therefore evolving into different currencies. But its main use case as a token was, you

you know, a currency. It was a way of paying people or transferring money to each other. The second wave we've just witnessed with NFT is where we start having digital assets, right? So how do you display a digital ownership? How do you own digital assets? How do you provide provenance through that? And now what's happening is a third wave, which I'm really excited about. And, you know, I'm stoked to be here with Brent talking exactly about that. Is that sort of like API technology

element, right? Which is smart tokens is exactly that. So the application that tokens will now become or be used as in a use case perspective is what gets really exciting because from a little bit more of a technical standpoint, the beauty of what WebTree is shifting here by evolving the internet is the main way of integrating data today is through a centralized place or to a company database, right? So

To Brent's point before, if you want to do a partnership with another brand, you need to go to that PII integration or that GDPR compliancy to make sure that you can do what you want to do. And it's still super difficult, right? Because the integration point is the database that the brand owns and has liability over. Now, what this new technology and obviously Web3 is enabling is the person or the user becomes the integration point.

So you're taking all the liability, all the risk from the brand side. And from a user side, you're giving them control, ownership over their privacy.

And that's what's really exciting because we have seen already what happened in Web2 with Google, Meta, Apple, Samsung, and many other brands when it comes to data. We as the users became the product. And now this is giving a little bit more power, is giving a little bit more control over what's happening. And at the same time, solving a major issue that every single brand has in the planet, which is they are liable for all data they collect.

Right. So with with that said, I'm really excited about this sort of like third wave that's opening up. And for me, you know, Smart Token Labs is leading the way because obviously they've been building that space for much longer on which we will start looking more and more into actual business problems that brands have today.

and reverse engineering what is the best technology to do it. And sometimes it's going to be Web3. Other times it won't be, and that's fine. But we are not going technology first as we just did on the last wave of NFTs. And that's what's exciting, right? So when you start looking to engagement, major problem that every brand is trying to figure out how to engage more, better with our users. When you start looking to loyalty, major problem, right? Loyalty programs are broken.

And that example of events that brand just given, it's easily replicable for any major brand that wants to do the same. Right. So imagine you're part of, for example, Adi Club and you want to prove to other brands that are part of the ecosystem of Adidas, for example, Peloton, you want to be able to

As a member of Adi Club, go to Peloton's website and prove to Peloton, if you want to, that you are a gold tier of Adi Club, for example. And therefore, because you are and you can prove it, Peloton wants to offer you a certain experience, either early access to a product or a unique experience within the in-program that they have within their platform or discount, whatever it is, right? So by the user becoming the integration point,

is where you actually can decide to whom you want to prove what, and therefore you are enabling yourself to get better experience, better perks by being within programs that are deploying that technology on. So,

This is one example within loyalty and engagement of what you can do. Brent has obviously written, especially on LinkedIn, many other examples when it comes to, you know, travel industry or insurance industry or automotive industry. There's so many other things. Just to rant a little bit over that because I love the topic. Imagine you as a Tesla driver, right? You want to be able to prove that you own...

electric vehicle everywhere you go, not just where you're driving with your car, but everywhere you go on the web or everywhere you go offline, right? Because if you are able to prove that, there are many, many brands that will be really excited about providing a certain experience or a certain benefit for someone that can prove to them that they own an electric vehicle because those brands understand that whoever is owning those electric vehicles today are

are at the edge of technology, are at the edge of the change. They're with sort of like that mentality of energy transition, which is the target group that every single brand in the planet right now wants to talk with.

And with that technology, you can do that too. And that's what's super exciting because, again, you don't need a wallet. It can be done by email. It can be done by your Google wallet, your Apple wallet, whatever it's going to be. You can tie the VIN number of the car to that. So that's the proof of ownership through the VIN number. And then whenever you go in the web, that you allow people to sort of like see that you want to prove that to them. Right.

Brands can now get prepared to tailor experiences based on things that you want in real life that they would never know before. So those are things for me in the early stage of use cases, because obviously all of this is always developing today and tomorrow and after tomorrow. We can start seeing where the possibilities are.

And especially when you see the numbers that Brent just mentioned, like 750,000 people claiming the pass and believing on the mission of what they're building in three weeks is bananas. Especially in the market we're in, right? We're in a market that, because this is not speculative, people are probably excited about the technology and the possibilities rather than trying to make money because we are in a moment that, you know, nobody's making money within that crypto space. I think everyone expecting us talking about crypto

bored apes and stuff will be disappointed but for a good reason I'm in I started being in the web with Netscape browser 1.1 it was kind of excitement in the former days which reminds me on the last 20 25 minutes because there's a lot going on and I think the

tokenization of web, I think it will bridge between web two and web three. And I'm really looking forward for 2D developments coming up the next month and hopefully maybe see you at DdMexico to take a deeper dive into the current developments.

I'm really stoked. I know, Diego, that's your turn, but I'm stoked today talking to you both. And thank you very much, Diego and Brent. And maybe, yeah, what kind of last words would you give Brent managers for the next couple of months? What should they do? How to approach smart tokens? How to approach Web3? You mentioned the new playbook, Diego. So what are your recommendations for a market here to go for the next month?

I mean, obviously, just get yourself a smart layer pass. If you get yourself a smart layer pass, then you're joining our open loyalty program, and you will get a series of surprise and delight experiences by holding this pass in your Apple and Google wallet, and it will connect you to a bunch of web-based experiences that will blow your mind. So if you want to get practical and sort of like get a real understanding of what this stuff is going to do in your hands, go get a pass and play around with it. I've got one in my mind. I've got it over here. Okay.

There you go. I got three quests in level one, 200 points already. It's kicking off. Mate, there's a few people with 4,000 plus points. You just wait until we switch back on the referrer friend. That allows you to create a lot of points. So play around with the smart layer and the smart layer pass to get a hold of the technology, you say. I think so. There's just nothing better than getting the technology in your hands. It's always hard. It's better to experience than explain. Yeah.

Have a play with it. Great. Diego, what would you reckon? I would say...

dive deeper has been my call to action for so long now, you know, dig deeper, dive deeper into everything because it's so easy to get drawn, um, away from, from the reality. If you just follow the headlines, right. And, and, and Brent just said, getting the technology is the best way to do that. You don't learn how to drive a car. Theoretically you learn how by how to drive a car by driving a car. Right. So I would say, you know, dive deeper, um,

If you think about super broadly and super simply, what's happening right now is we're evolving the way...

we connect digitally as a species, right? And it's going to keep evolving. Web 3 is not the last destination. We're going to have web 4, web 5, web 69, whatever, right? It's going to keep evolving. It's going to keep going forward. And what's happening right now is that this next evolution, as the other evolutions we've seen before, is based on a stack of technology, not one technology. So to your point of AI taking over and stealing the scene, AI is part of the evolution of the internet.

If you want to say that AI is part of Web3, cool. If you don't, it doesn't matter. The next evolution of the Internet is based on a stack of technologies. You have blockchain as the rails and the sort of like the base. You have the metaverse, immersive reality, immersive experience, whatever you want to name it.

as the interface. So changing the way that we will connect and engage with each other digitally as it went from text to video and phone and calls. And now it's going to go from text, video and calls to avatars and immersive experience and everything in between really, you know, NFTs, cryptocurrencies, smart tokens,

AI, VR, AR, the stuff we hear every day, everything in between is going to be part of this next evolution of the internet. And the only thing all those technologies together are aiming to do is create better experience for the users, create better experience for people to utilize the internet and be closer connected.

So if you zoom out and see from that angle, I don't even need to give you like a wake-up call. Like it's happening. It's already there. And if you're passionate about that, you better get involved. Don't get lost in the headlines. You also have a really active Discord channel, I think.

Yeah, we're there. I recently just launched a newsletter as well, The Wild West of Web3. So I'm shifting a lot my comms and my channels towards, again, what I set myself to do two years ago, which is talking to the masses, talking to the ones that...

I'm not in this space. Don't understand that I'm afraid because everybody else makes it so complicated. So my job is to translate. My job is to make it easy. So if you are interested and want to learn, you know, the wild west of Web3, I'll give you the link you can put on the show notes, is where is that. I launched it, you know, last week and we're almost at 3,000 subscribers already, which I'm really, really stoked for.

Great. Thank you very much, Diego. Thank you very much. And Brent to Sydney, have a nice evening and hopefully see you around the Mexico in September, 2021st of September in Cologne. I think this year without smart tokens, maybe next year, Brent, we're going to. Maybe we'll make it there, mate. You never know. Thank you very much. Thanks, Alex. Thank you both. Thanks, Alex.

This is the episode with Diego Borgo and Brent Annalts about Web3 and the tokenization of the web. As always, you can find all the information on the pod page dmexico.com slash podcast. I hope to see you in September 2021 in Cologne for the DMX Go. But before that, we will hear each other with two exciting episodes. One of them will be on the topic of digital fashion. So...

Take care. Bye-bye. Yours, Alex.