The Role of AI in Productivity with Ari Meisel
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piped in live from the interwebs. Now that we have our interwebs fixed, we have somebody that is really a master of time. This is the guy that entrepreneurs that are drowning in task and drowning in all kinds of chaos call. This is the guy that they call when they need help. He is the founder of the Less Doing Movement. He is

He is the author of The Replaceable Founder, The Idea of Execution, The Art of Doing Less. He's helped thousands of business owners work smarter, not harder. And he turned his personal battle with Crohn's disease into the blueprint for ultimate efficiency. And now for you today.

He's going to show you how to optimize, automate, and outsource everything. If you are somebody that is trapped by your business and don't have enough time, this today, folks, is going to be the podcast to you. Welcome to the program. Ladies and gentlemen, this is Ari Maizel. Ari, how are you, man?

Hey, thanks for having me back. No, I appreciate it. So for those of you guys listening, Ari was nice enough to come back again. We had a major technical difficulty that crashed this entire thing about 30 minutes in, and he is taking time to spend with us again. So thank you once again for your understanding, Ari. I appreciate you, man. I do. Absolutely. Sometimes do-overs are a good thing.

I know. So let's talk a little bit. Let's start out. Like I always like to start out with the nature versus nurture part of what we do. So somebody that is as high functioning as you are, tell me about early Ari, young Ari. What do you think burned that type of, burned that into you?

So that's a good question. I think that there was a really interesting statistic that I read a long time ago, which was from the National Foundation for Teaching Entrepreneurship, which said that 74% of young entrepreneurs come from households where the father is physically or emotionally absent and the mother is overbearing.

for whatever reason, you can draw some extrapolations. So that was mine, my setup. My father is very emotionally absent, not physically absent. My mother's a Jewish mother, so overbearing. And I guess that just like squeezes out this like need to overachieve and get recognition and all sorts of things, which I ended up having to fix later as an adult in therapy. But I got to start my first company when I was 12. I started working as a model when I was nine.

And I was doing children's birthday parties as a magician before that, believe it or not. So I've always been working. What was the first company you started when you were 12?

website design. So it was a company called Lion Text. Ari means lion in Hebrew and text was technology extraordinaire. It's like the lamest thing ever. Lion Text. So I've had like eight or more companies at this point. And I find like every company I've gotten involved in is basically like something that I like and that I'm good at. And then somebody offers to pay me.

And so that's what you know in 1994 I was 12 and in 1994 you either got a 12 year old who knew HTML or you hired some giant ad company to do a website for $300,000 so I made a website for my father's art gallery and then someone saw it and asked if I would do theirs and ended up doing like 150 or so websites before I turned 16 So

Being that you've always kind of had that entrepreneurial dream, have you ever had a job? Are you a guy that, have you ever worked for somebody else? So interestingly enough, yes, I've had several jobs, many, many, many jobs actually, and they just don't last very long.

Yeah. I always like to say that people that function very highly as entrepreneurs are what I like to call chronically unemployable. Yeah. Would you say that's you for sure? I get it. I would be a terrible – I mean, I was a terrible employee, I think, in some ways. Not because of, like, quality of work, but because I was, like, always second-guessing the bosses and stuff like that.

I have worked for Freddie Mac, big mortgage company. I've worked for Mac Cosmetics, which is part of Estee Lauder. I worked... My last job before... My very last job, which I guess was now 23 years ago, was in real estate development with a Japanese real estate development company that was doing work in Austin. But that lasted about six months. And then since then, no, I have not...

work for anybody. Here's a question about that, because I know which way I lean coming out of that same situation, but do you find that you took away from the bosses that you had into your companies? Do you think you took more positive things of what they did? Or did you see things that they did that you perceived as negative that you're like, I'm never going to do that?

Yeah, I think there's a lot more negatives. So like Freddie Mac is a good example. So Freddie Mac is the big government organization for mortgages and stuff. So I got there for a summer internship and I had seven bosses that I met my first day. All seven of them gave me a project to work on. And then all seven of them went to some convention for like a week. And I finished all of the work that they had given me that day.

that first day and then was just like, you know, bouncing around for the rest of the day. I went to actually, I grew up in New York city. So like the, the, the Lincoln's at Tyson's corner or the tight, I don't know. It was some big mall in Maryland. Um,

That was like blind blowing for me. I spent more time at that mall the first week than I did working at Freddie Mac. Plus the company had flex hours. So you had to do seven hours of 45 minutes of work any, any given day, but the building operated 24 seven. So I'd come in at like five and be done by lunch essentially. And then just be done. So a lot of weird ways to organize it. I wouldn't say a government organization is necessarily the most efficient. Yeah. So I definitely learned more about what not to do.

Would you say there's anybody from that young time of your life that stands out as a mentor that you can say this was the person that I kind of modeled after? I don't know that I modeled, per se, after it. But I definitely had several mentors, actually. And maybe the most impactful was actually in college is a guy who's still alive named Michael Tomczyk.

who ran the innovation center at Wharton. And I worked for him while I was there. And Michael's sort of big claim to fame is he was one of the original founders of the Commodore 64. Oh, wow. And wrote the book on like personal computer wars, essentially. Really fascinating guy. But he was great. He was an army officer, just really, really interesting and was an important part of my career.

growing up, I'd say in a lot of ways. Yeah. I think the Commodore 64 kind of summed up my childhood, which was, you know, everybody was getting the Commodore 64, but my mom was on a budget. So we got the Vic 20, which was like the model down there. It is. Yeah. But this is what I had a little bit after you, I guess.

Yeah. Yeah. So we had like the Vic 20, which was like, and all your friends look, you know, look down their nose at you. Like, Oh, you can't get the 64 bit. You can only get the 20. Yeah. That was the story. I remember when a friend of mine, it was like such sour grapes. A friend of mine got a 28, eight bond modem. Like you don't even need that if you're running a business. 14, four is fine. No, no,

I know you're like, you're hating up at him. You're like, no, it doesn't work. Oh my gosh. So at what point, now you went to Wharton, which, you know, we talked about a little bit on the last podcast that we'll never see the light of day. To me, that's like the Super Bowl of business. And it is, I know you didn't take it as that much of a compliment. I guess us normies looking from the outside in, we see it that way. How did that experience kind of change you, shape you? And what was the value you got out of that?

Yeah, you know, it's interesting. People, there's obviously a lot of cloud around Wharton, and I'm very happy that I went there. And it's definitely opened doors for me to be there, that I went there, there's no question. But like, it's been for a very, very long time, it's been a known thing that like Harvard produces more CEOs, and Wharton produces more operations analysts kind of people. So it does a much better job of creating like,

human machines, I guess, in a way, but it doesn't necessarily create leaders. And I hate to overgeneralize, but that's one of the things that was like a big issue when I was there. The other thing is that the entrepreneurship major had basically gone defunct in the 90s. So while I was there, I actually worked with a few other students and we recreated it and redesigned it from the ground up.

the entrepreneurship major. But Wharton, I don't even know now if Wharton is in the top 20 schools for entrepreneurship. Babson is kind of like the standard. So it kind of depends what you want and what you think you want and what kind of experience you want. But I was there for three years. So I graduated a year early and I graduated with two majors and two minors and a terrible GPA that, you know, I got a job right out of college, obviously, but like,

It was like a 2.68 GPA, which I think is barely passing. And I have a handwritten personal letter from the dean thanking me for my service to the school. So, like, that was just how I operated. You know, I knew what I was there for, and it was not to get a job at Goldman. Right.

Right. Well, you know, it's really interesting that you say that because I think people think so linear in opportunities like that, like graduate top of your class, then get a job at Goldman. Like that's the linear way to do it. But you probably, your recommendation from the dean thanking you or the president of the university was probably worth as much as a 4.0 would have been to real world executives. Yeah.

Right. Exactly. Yeah. And that's what I always said. So like another good example of that is that I had this incredible real estate development class with, and the teacher was the former CFO of Trammell Crow. So like big, big time real estate guy. And the class was so cool because every week we would do a case study on a real project that had been developed. And the next week he would bring in the person who developed it. The guy was very connected and just very, very cool. And I was doing terribly in the class. And I knew that I wanted to be a real estate developer.

But my analysis, so I was, it's really funny. This is like really sort of like exemplifies how this works. So we had to do these one page executive summaries essentially. So we would have hundreds of pages. These cases would take hours and hours and hours. And the very first line,

of the page was I would invest in this project or I would not invest in this project. And then you have to give an analysis. So in the entire class, which I had to get a permit to take the class, it was an MBA class. I always got the right answer in terms of investing or not investing, but my analysis was terrible. So on paper, it didn't make sense, but I just knew like what made sense for a good project. And we met, I met with him at one point. I was like, I'm getting really bad grades in your class, but I really want to do this.

for a living and he's like yeah look if you uh if you try to get a job somewhere i would be surprised if you make it six months like you need to go do this this and this and uh it was he was a mentor too and so what i always say is like i got a shitty grade in real estate development it was like i got a c minus in real estate which i ended up doing for 25 years but of all the people in my class that got a's i don't know how many of them are still in touch with the teacher

Sure. Yeah. Because they don't remember him. So the teacher obviously recognized that you had, it's odd that you're teaching a class that's based in math and science effectively, but you also understand there's an art to it. The kind of the art side of it is where the real success comes from. Because I like to think that the people that are really successful in business are

depend on those that think linear for data that helps them give them data points and make decisions. But at the end of the day, there's always kind of a nuance that runs between the numbers that if you can't see that, you're not going to get there. Right. Exactly. And, you know, it also...

Like you have to be able to connect the dots to the real world. A really good example actually is what's happening right now in the world with tariffs, right? If you look at homo economicus, you know, the perfect version of like somebody who responds the right way to economic changes. Like you learn this in macroeconomics in the first year of college, 20% increase in tariffs should reduce a 20% reduction in demand. That's how it should work. But we can't grow coffee in America, right? Like, so...

Some people still want Swiss chocolate, even if it's double the price. Yeah. Take those things into account. That's like the context that really matters. How does that actually affect the real world? Let me ask you this. Now, obviously, when did you get diagnosed with Crohn's disease? Because that kind of started this whole journey that you're on now. When did that happen? So I had just finished this really big real estate development project in upstate New York in Binghamton, and I was 23.

So you're 23. And for those that don't understand what Crohn's disease is and don't want to Google it, how did you know you had it? What was it? How was it affecting you? What was it? Yeah, so I didn't actually, I didn't know what it was.

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And so Crohn's is a chronic inflammatory condition that affects the digestive tract. It is considered to be incurable by the medical community and it is very debilitating, very painful. And for most people it means frequent trips to the bathroom,

not being able to sort of draw nutrients effectively out of your food. But for me, I had what's called the obstructive kind. So basically food would get stuck in my intestines and create blockages, create scarring. And it is one of the most painful things actually, like a human being can experience is the stretching of your intestines. Yeah.

Oh, God. Yeah. I had a bout once with diverticulitis once, and I've heard that it's similar to that. So to have what I had just, you know, flukishly one time, to have that as a repetitive thing, I can't even imagine, dude. That's dreadful. Yeah. Dreadful thing. But how did that change the trajectory you were on into where you are now? Obviously, that was a catalyst. I know you've talked about that. Yeah. So...

I've been working these crazy hours. I was working in construction, like hands-on in construction for three years at that point. And I also had amassed $3 million of personal debt when I was 23. And the short answer is that I went from working 18 hours a day to working an hour a day because I was just so weak and sick and unable. And I started taking a lot of medicine. And initially what it started with was sort of this biohacking journey, which was pretty

really started to take shape as a movement at that point. And the idea of like looking at all the blood tests I've been getting, all the different medicines and supplements and trying to experiment, that sort of analytical look at my health,

Really, I feel like formed the basis for the first part of my system of productivity, which is optimize. Because optimizing to me is really looking at how we do what we do and really digging into the shining of light as it were. But also, and what I feel is sort of the genesis for everything that's come since then, is that that idea of what would you do if you could only work an hour a day is a fascinating question. I love to ask people that because

There's so many productivity systems out there that are really about like eking out every last little percentage of your day and your hour and what you're doing. And, and,

You ask somebody, what would you do if you had to leave the office an hour early? Most of them just say they would skip lunch. But if you say to somebody like, what if you only had an hour a day to get things done? At that point, it's really not a question about what would you do? It's wouldn't you do? And if the things that you wouldn't do still need to get done, then who or increasingly what is going to do them for you? It's just like a very mind bending kind of experience. So

That question is what really led to me starting to experiment with all sorts of different productivity methods. A lot of the things that I teach are very counterintuitive to what a lot of other productivity people teach. And, um,

And it worked. And it's grown since then to coaching, speaking, writing, all that stuff. Yes. I don't think people fully grasp that concept until something happens either to you or to somebody that's close to you. A friend of mine that we're in business with, his wife, they were in Hawaii and his wife was pregnant and they were just there on vacation and she had a complication where she couldn't fly.

And so all of a sudden you got six months left on this pregnancy. Your business is here and, and she can't leave the Island. I mean, she can't go on an airplane. So he just figured it out how to run his business from Hawaii. And now I'm pretty sure they go back there for several months every year, just because they figured it out. And I think, you know, they say that necessity is the mother of invention, of course. And, and,

I just think people have to get there. Now, that obviously led you to writing your first book, right? Which I want to talk a little bit about it. The first book was the Art of, that was the first book, right? Art of Loving? The first book. That was the first one. So obviously that book, like you said, well, you know what? I want to go back a little bit further because you glossed over something that I love, which was we talked about biohacking.

So what were the things that you did to get ahead of your Crohn's disease? That's the first question. The second question is, what do you still do today?

Second question is what? What do you still do today? Are you still adding new stuff to the protocol? What is the Ari Meisel biohacking protocol? That's what I want to hear. Yeah. So it was definitely an interesting experience. There were definitely things that I did that did not help. There were some things that made me feel worse. But ultimately what I learned... So I tried all sorts of things. I tried a vegan diet, a vegetarian, pescetarian. At this point, I can pretty much eat... I mean, I eat anything I want. But...

I believe that the best diet overall, it's not about being gluten-free. It's not about pescatarian or anything. It's that it is low in sugar and very, very high in saturated fats.

Okay. So grass fed butter, pastured egg yolks, heritage raised pork, grass fed beef. Butter is I think butter should be prescribable, honestly, because one of the things that a lot of people don't realize is that butter is called butter because of butyric acid. And butyric acid is one of the main ways that probiotics in your gut or the bacteria in your gut communicate with each other.

So butter it up. As much as you can eat. I'm going to go home. All right, tell me about it. It's incredible. And then there's a bunch of supplements. I think that the supplements are kind of easy. There's some weird ones I definitely try and I don't take those anymore now. It's just probiotic and krill oil and vitamin D and some zinc, I think is what I'm usually doing now. But

The other one is we don't have enough like fermented foods in the diet in America as far as I'm concerned. So things like sauerkraut, even pickles, like real pickles and kimchi and other fermented foods, fermented foods and real yogurt, like all that kind of stuff, I think is really good for Crohn's disease. But ultimately, it's really an inflammatory condition. So stress is a big component. And that's really kind of where less doing played into this.

So nowadays, I wouldn't say that I'm particularly biohacking at this point, but I am using ChatGPT to do all my meal logging, which has been incredible. Through all of this process, I've never found a meal planner or not meal planner, a meal logger that I liked. They're all flawed in a lot of ways. And what's nice about ChatGPT is that you can be proactive and

So you can say to it, and I just did this at lunch. I have, so I have a cold right now. And I was, I said to him, I was like, I don't feel great right now. And I'd kind of like to have dessert, which I don't normally have. So I took a picture we have from Costco, banana, not muffins and pound cake. I said, which one would be a better choice?

And it's it. Do go with the pound cake because it's a little bit lighter. Your protein's looking great for the day. So let me get this straight because I use my fitness pal, which can be cumbersome sometimes. And I find that the macros can be off a little bit. So-

You just created GPT and said, you're my, you're going to log on my macros and just log into that one particular GPT and say, here's what I just ate. I mean, are you giving it the exact, are you just taking pictures? That's what you're doing. I'm taking pictures. Of your plate. Yeah. It's really, really good. And, but I can, I find it to be really accurate and it understands what my goals are. Right. So I'd like to sort of lean out a little bit. I want to increase fiber. I think a lot of Americans also, we don't know fiber.

Also, it knows the vitamins I'm taking. So it literally, the other day it was like, you've been taking zinc for five days, you should cycle off it for two days. Which I was like, oh, I never knew that was a thing. And I asked it why and it told me. And the other thing that's really cool with that is that you can take a picture of your fridge and your pantry. So you can say to it like, hey, I just had this sandwich or whatever.

I'm still hungry. Like, what can I add to it? That would be a good choice. And it will say to me, and it has said to me, it's like, take the, take one of the apples from the fridge and the, the Indian yogurt and put that in it with, with, you know, and if you want something sweet, add a little bit of honey. It's great. It's wild. No, dude, man. And I, but I guess that's your whole thing, right? So, but, but outside of like food and supplements, are you doing it? Like, is there a hyperbaric chambers or your cold plunger, any of that stuff?

I mean, I have five kids, man. Like, you know, there's a limit to how much biohacking gadgets I can do. We had an in-front sauna, which we just sold. We're moving to a new house and I may get another one. I love my sauna. Yeah. I hate the cold.

I hate it, but I have tried the face in the bowl of water a couple times, which actually I think is pretty good. I do like that. But I also, I work out twice a week. Like I just, I don't drink either. That's another one. So I used to, and I probably will again, but at this point in my life, my sleep is generally fairly shitty just because of the lifestyle that we have.

with the kids and I work one overnight shift a week on the EMS squad. Like, so recognizing that my sleep is shitty, like it's not worth it to bring to have a drink because I'll just feel like crap the next day.

Do you wear a tracker to track your sleep? Are you doing all that stuff? I have. I mean, I don't need a tracker to know that it's not great. So I operate pretty well, honestly, on not that much sleep. I don't know how long I'll be able to pull that off for the rest of my life. But yeah, I've used the Oura Ring. I think the Oura Ring is the best tracker there is. But currently, I go through these phases where I track a lot and then I don't track anything because I kind of have a sense of things.

But I do do my own blood testing every six months. So that's usually, that's like the big one too for me. And that's as well.

Yeah, I think everything, checking your blood, I get my blood and I upload it to ChatGPT immediately. I learned that 10X Health was scaling, right? And obviously Gary Brekka's had a major falling out with them. And I lived through that. Like, I understand why he had a falling out because I signed up for 10X Health and, you know, I did the blood work and it came back. And the way that it kind of laid it out on the sheet, like,

I basically Google doctored myself and gave myself liver cancer based on these results. I was freaking out. And, and,

right? Cause I'm like, cause they're like, well, a doctor's going to talk to you in three weeks. And I'm like, what do you mean three weeks? This thing says I have liver cancer, which wasn't, it was just some nonsense that happened in my blood work. But now whenever I get my blood, I get every three months, I go right to chat GBT. I don't wait to, I don't wait to have the doctor review it. May just goes over everything tells me if I need to adjust my supplements and tells me if I'm taking too much of anything, it's great. It's wonderful. I imagine

that chat GBT has just taken the car or whatever AI you're using has taken so many of the concepts in your, in, in your methodology over the years and just turbocharged them.

Yeah, absolutely. So one of the things which I think is a really cool sort of thing to talk about now is I've, you know, in my career, I've worked with hundreds of VAs, I've outsourced thousands of hours of stuff and spent tens of thousands of dollars on it. I have not had a team or any support staff in any shape or form in the last two years.

because I do everything with chat GPT and I'm involved in a lot of different things and a lot of different like nonprofits and municipal communities and stuff like that. And it, chat GPT manages all of it. So I find that amazing. Well, I had a guy reach out to me that I had used as an outsourcer previously in India and he was like, Hey, do you have any work? And I was like, dude,

same story. I'm like, man, you know, art goes out to you, but you should probably learn to do something else because I think, I think there's a large segment of the Indian economy, Pakistan economy, uh, that part of the world, Bangladesh, the Philippines, that's, it's gonna be hard hit by this. Absolutely. Yeah. Um,

I would say this is that you can't, I don't think that we're at a point where we can outsource or AI taste, I guess, but we can't really AI taste as far as I'm concerned. So that's something that I think will hold out for a little while, but yes, on mass, I agree with you. But I would also say this, like I've done so much outsourcing over the years. There's sort of geographical shifts that happen. So like,

10 years ago, India was the place to go through for VAs, but I wouldn't say that that's necessarily the case now. You're seeing a lot more coming out of the Philippines and you're also seeing a lot of plus ones coming out of Pakistan. India is probably better now for SEO kind of stuff. So like you see sort of this movement all over the place. And like graphic design is a great example. There was a time, coding actually, there was a time where Ukraine had like the best

Outsource coders and this that changed way way before the Russian war and stuff but like that changed at some point Graphic designers used to be able to get amazing graphic designer. No, it's possible. I can't do that Well, I I know we're taking kind of a hard left turn and you know now but I mean Do you kind of watch some of the stuff you can do with chat GBT? And do you lay a do you ever lay awake in bed and think what are people gonna do? like

Aren't every, is it literally every time you, something comes in your brain, you're killing a job? Because I know that's the way I think about it. I'm like, oh my gosh, we're going to get to a point where what are people going to do? So it's a good question. My way of thinking about it is this, is that if you give work to a human being that a computer can do, you are in essence dehumanizing that person.

Right. Because it's very hard for somebody to engage with the work and do it well and not make errors when they know and you know that a computer can do it and a computer should be doing it. So in an ideal world, the idea of the replaceable founder is that we're replacing people up, not out. In reality, that doesn't always end up being the case. Right. And sometimes people have to end up reinventing themselves and getting into a different line of work.

But it's not so much like, are we taking the jobs? It's more like, just how are we going to adapt to that? Because it's like an inevitability, right? No, it completely is. And I wonder, you know, part of the tariff push is bringing manufacturing back to the market.

If the witch wants to sell...

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Prescription required. Price marries both on product and subscription plan. See website for full details, restrictions, and important safety information. States, not even though most of those plants, as they're building them into the new world, will be automated plants, but they're still going to need bodies to run them. Do you think there's a thought in our government of, wow, look at all of these people that are not going to have jobs. We need to do something to create an economy at scale where they can work.

Yeah. So I actually have a client who just bought six humanoid robots to work in his warehouse. Like that's, we're there. So I think it's called futurist. Maybe I can't remember the name of it, but like it's, they're getting delivered next week. Like this is, he's there, you know? So on the one hand, you can think about it this way, right? In an ideal world, what this ends up doing is making every product cheaper. Right. So somebody with like,

a job that makes $7 an hour could still buy everything they want because, you know, it now costs 3 cents to make the thing because we don't have people doing it. So, and obviously I think that there's a lag for that kind of thing, but longterm, that's probably something that will happen. The more AI stuff that we have, the cheaper things can get. Although there is a, I can't remember the name of it. There is a, an effect. It's some like psychological effect where, uh,

It has to do with, it was, it's an old thing. It has to do with coal plants in the 1880s, but essentially the idea is as we get more and more efficient, the idea is that we have less jobs, we need less people. But the truth is what actually ends up happening is we just end up building and making more of those efficient things. So same thing with like AI chips as the chips get cheaper and we'll be able to do more faster. That doesn't mean we're going to need less. We're going to end up needing more and it will expand faster. So yeah,

I think it's more like there's a seesaw effect. We're going to lose some jobs and then some new jobs are created. That's going to be really awful for a lot of people, for sure. But the ones who don't change are the ones that will not come out on top. Maybe I'm just watching too much Black Mirror lately. I don't know. The dystopian future is upon us. Sorry, it's terrible. It's a possibility.

I mean, it's a possibility. Well, let's try to help some people that are still living and working today, shall we? Instead of depressing everybody with our podcast. Now, you're so big on optimization in that first book, obviously, Optimize, Automate, and Outsource. How should you go about finding things to opt in? Like, walk me through your data point analysis of your daily workday, of your daily work life to identify things that you can do that with.

So there's a couple of ways to look at that. So I have a framework called the ultimate KPI, where you look at the 20 things that you do on a regular basis. And that could be everything from, you know, I'm meeting with my team to I'm doing podcasts to I'm making deals, whatever it is, 20 things that you do on a very regular basis.

And then the idea is to look at those 20 and pick 16 of them that in one year's time you will no longer be doing. And basically we reverse engineer, are we going to optimize it, automate it or outsource it? And it's a sort of a fascinating process to go through because essentially everybody in organizations should do this. But what you're kind of asking people to do is like, if you were to be fired tomorrow, what would we have to do to replace you? And

And what that does, again, is it frees people from the shackles of the level that they're at so that they can rise up to the next level as far as I'm concerned. So they can push that work down and down. So that's the first thing. We kind of have to take this, again, it's like shining a light. We look at how we do what we do and start to dig into the processes. The next one, which is a big one about automation, is the word every, right? So look at your day and anytime you use the word every. So every time a customer signs up, right? Every time I record a podcast, every time I travel,

The word every suggests that you're doing something repetitively and anything that we're doing repetitively probably can be automated definitely in part, but probably in its entirety. So that's a ripe opportunity for automation. And then once we have optimized and automated, at that point, whatever's left,

That's when we can look at outsourcing or delegating to some sort of specialist or generalist. But if you do it before that, which a lot of people do, they try to outsource first because it's this like hands off knee jerk reaction. I don't want to touch this. That's where we get into problems. Well, you know what I found is, and I challenged the people that work for me to do this a lot, which is in that process of going through your day,

How much actual work do you actually do? Because especially being in real estate, right? You know, we have a very large real estate company and realtors are famous for this. Like, it's like, oh, I get up in the morning and I come to the office and then I have a cup of coffee and then I talk about my weekend and then I got to go on social media because we got to do that. And then I do this. It's like, and then, you know, by the time this and it's 2.30, I got to go pick up the

kids and then I kind of drop them off and then I come back. It's like most realtors actually do an hour's worth of real work in an eight hour day, but yet they've positioned themselves to feel like they've had this long day. Oh, I went to this meeting. I sat in this class. I did this, but activities that will actually bring you dollars, they're only spending maybe an hour of actual work a day. So, I mean, do you find that in other industries or is it just really sales? I mean, where do you find that, that loss of just time?

Yeah, so I think the actual average across all industries of productive work in a nine to five kind of position is like an hour and 12 minutes of productive work. I'm not just saying I'm not realtors for that. That's okay. I mean, it's kind of like 80-20, right? Another really funny statistic is that in the average nonfiction book, there's like 12 pages of actual content. Everything else is just bluff.

So like we see that all the time and what it's one of the reasons that oftentimes when people say to me that they have no time or they don't have enough time, typically what I find is that they actually have too much time and they're just not using it correctly at all. I have no idea. I love when someone, I mean, I'm kind of a jerk about this, I think, but some, when people are like, oh, I'm so busy. How have you been? Oh, I'm just so busy. I always like to be like, what are you busy with? And like nine times out of 10, it's like,

I'm so busy. I'm just busy. It's like, with what? Like...

You're not busy. You're overwhelmed with the thought of all the things you should be doing that you're not doing. Exactly. So people have too much time. There's an unpopular opinion, sometimes too much money. Like that's where these restrictions are really what breed innovation. As you said, necessity is the mother of all invention. Restrictions are the mother of innovation as far as I'm concerned.

Well, after you wrote the first book, now it's just so interesting to see how the world has changed so much, but the concepts remain the same from 2016 when the first book came out to this. Because the second book, I think, was Idea to Execution. Is that right? No, so the first book was Less Doing, More Living, and then I wrote another version of it called The Art of Less Doing. And then I think the third one was Idea to Execution.

Okay. Now, I feel like you started to shift more thinking from everyday use into being more specific with founders, CEOs, that type of stuff. It can be user-maintenance. Was there something that happened in your life that created that out of necessity? What happened there? Yeah. So this was 2015, August of 2015. A very large virtual assistant company at the time called Zirtual was

which I think is still around in a different form than I thought. But they very suddenly went out of business. They basically ran out of capital. And I guess, you know, requirement wise, they had to let everybody know like, hey, we can't pay you. So you got to go home. So it was like a Sunday night. No, I'm probably like a Wednesday night. Excuse me. They sent out this email and I had a lot of clients that were using Zirtual and I had worked with several of the VAs. And so the whole day,

The next day, I'm getting calls from both sides being like, VA's who needed jobs and people who were like, I just lost my assistant, like my life's over. And I was connecting different people like throughout the day. And that night, I had planned on having dinner with a friend of mine. And he and I had dinner and he was working in finance, but he was

he had working on a productivity app. It was kind of in space. So we're talking about it and about the, about Zortral. And he was like, why don't you just start your own VA company at this point? And I was like, I don't want to do that. I was like, let's do it. He's going, well, my, you know, my wife's pregnant with our fourth child. Like things are good. And he was like, what if we do it together? I was like, okay, but we got to do it quickly because I'm going away, you know, next week with my family. And, uh,

I guess we'll try it. So we launched two days later a VA company with basically two VAs, which was me and my partner. And I took 10 of my coaching clients and brought them into it. And we did everything with free tools and we sort of built everything from the ground up in like a less doing image in a way.

And three months later we were operating comfortably. We had like three or four assistants and maybe 20 or 30 clients. And then we've spoken to, no, sorry. We had like 20 clients and we spoke at an event and

at Joe Polish's event, actually, you know Joe Polish, right? And got 70 clients from that one presentation and quadrupled the business overnight essentially and then grew from there. So what we wanted to do, the idea was to document month by month what we were doing to build the business because we never put a penny into the company

We did a million dollars the first year. We had 183 people working for us in 17 time zones. And I think at the end of the first year, we had like 300 or 400 clients. And everything was being managed with Trello and amazing automations that my partner built, coded custom stuff.

So that was a big turning point there because at that point, not only up until then, I'd been doing a lot of work coaching wise with individuals about their individual issues. But at that point, not only were we growing our own business, but we were starting to service a lot of small business owners. So we were just seeing a lot more issues and challenges. And I was doing a weekly webinar series for them, for all of our clients. So it was a lot of like on the job learning in a way.

Yeah, I can. I mean, you can definitely see that kind of shift through the way that your writing was. And even with the most recent book now, The Replaceable Founder, I think you've gone from like, you've gone from your everyday employee to the person running the business to now CEO founder level. And it's almost like that trilogy is now complete. In that book, just go ahead. Sorry. Yeah. So the latest book is actually called On Productivity, which is like my sort of. Oh, I'm sorry. Yeah, no, no. The Replaceable Founder.

Hunter was second to next or last. But then I did this sort of like opus at the end. But the thing that I think may have also had some contribution there is so I've always been really interested in history. And in particular, I got that I found this like passion around the world's oldest companies. So there are hundreds of companies in operation today that have been around for hundreds of years. And there are a few dozen companies that have been operating continuously for over 1000 years.

And there are about eight traits that these companies tend to share that make them last so long. And a lot of those, I think, in some ways have informed the things that I've written about and what really makes a company that is a thing unto itself as opposed to just a CEO who owns their own job.

Well, let's talk about that. What are the eight traits that make a thousand year old company? You don't get to throw that out there without me digging deep. Come on, man. That's solid. So one of them is that they rarely, if ever, took outside investment.

which I think is really interesting. They always, and that wasn't a protector, protective thing. It was more just like they wanted to grow under their own steam. So there were no unicorns per se that grew. Why? No, that's not true. Actually, there are many of them, but they didn't like, they weren't overnight successes, you know, and, and again, so, so like,

There is a hotel in Japan that started in 702. There is a restaurant in Austria that started in 806 that is still running. Think about the restaurant business. There are beer gardens. There are banks because banks used to be private institutions. All sorts of really crazy stuff.

and everything in between. But so that's one. Another one is that they had very, very strong sort of guiding principles, but all of them were very open to change and like accepting new things because these companies have existed through literal like regime changes, wars, famine, disease, like all sorts of things.

Another one was that all of them tend to see themselves as a member of a greater community. So the company was not just like a thing unto itself doing its own thing for profit. It was part of a bigger community around and acted as such. A good example of that is Fiskars. So you know Fiskars, the orange handled scissors? Mm-hmm. And like gardens. Yeah. So Fiskars is a 350-year-old iron smelting company from Finland. Oh.

And Zildjian, Zildjian that makes the big symbols. Zildjian is 400 years old. It was a Turkish guy who had this secret formula for making a metal alloy. That was like, no, like the secret was never shared over all these generations. And that's Zildjian 400 years old. Right. And now like, you know, greatest, like every rock band in the world. That's what they play.

Lots of really fascinating stories like that. And it's really inspiring. So and then like the oldest of all time is Congo Gumi, which is the construction company from Japan, which started in the fifth century. And essentially, it was liquidated four years ago, because it just couldn't at that there was just too much debt and Japanese economy kind of screwed them over. But the 80th generation of the Congo family had to put this business out of business. We're talking about pressure.

Oh, God. That's in Japan. That guy was probably wearing one of those signs and getting publicly humiliating to whatever they do with their business culture. Yeah. Yeah. And because I think when we, you know, when we build a business, I think everybody wants their business to be around forever. But I think, you know, again, well,

Yes. I think your first business, yes. And I can tell you this because I think your first business, when you build it, it's like your first child, right? You want it to be there forever. You want to have it. I think subsequently, when you start opening businesses, you're like, okay, we need to set this up right now to sell.

Like we need to, we're building this to sell because that's what you need to do when the market is right. And I think, I think that's the evolution, but that Jared knows what moms really want for mother's day, the opportunity to just sleep in and dream of idle playgrounds, empty sinks, and perfectly folded laundry.

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Very first one, man. I think people, it's their baby. I think they just want to keep it for as long as they can. And I think people probably wait too long to get out of them too, which causes some problems.

Yeah.

Now, my question is this. So I want to talk specifically about chat GBT and the impact that it's making on your methodologies in those things. I mean, so many people are like, oh, I use it to write my Twitter posts. It's like, no, you don't understand. Tell me what you think is the most powerful thing people can do with chat GBT right now, because technically speaking, they could ask it to be you and help them find inefficiencies in their business.

based on your writings right yeah so i actually don't think that that is is the most valuable use totally could do that okay good and interestingly enough the first version of chat gpt i guess the second one maybe i think the second one had my was familiar with my writing all right so like it was one of the first things i asked was like you know rm is like yes you wrote this and this so like write this in the style of rm zone and did it

So whatever, you know, compendium of knowledge they scanned their first sort of set from like my book was in it, I guess. But at least up until now, I think now is a little bit different. It really couldn't sort of innovate and iterate further.

In some ways, one of the things that I think is the most valuable thing for me is I am a really bad reader. So I've always just been much more of an audio-visual guy. I'll watch a movie and I will remember every single line for the rest of my life from watching it once. But I read a book and I have to read the same page seven times.

Yeah. You know, and I know that about, I, I, I, I'm similar, but, but you know, there's unfortunately the stuff that I tend to memorize is every line from the movie point break and nothing pretty much else of value. Just to drive my wife insane, I guess. I think that's the reason I have it.

Well, pretty much. Yeah. I can do that movie cold. Pretty much. I could, I don't even know why. I don't know why. I have no idea. Anyway, but also such a piece of shit movie too, at the same time. I know, I know, I know, I know, I know. All right.

All right, that's good. Yeah, at least now you know I'm honest. Yeah, yeah. That's great. Totally. So I am involved. Fortunately or unfortunately, I'm involved in a bunch of things right now that require an orison reading. So I've been elected to the school board here in Princeton where we live. I am on the...

I'm the vice president of our local rescue squad. I'm on the executive board of the Jewish Center. I'm also on this municipal committee on affordable housing, racial, economic, and social equity. And the only way that I can do all of that is because I have a project in Chachi Petit for each one. And every time, like the school board, we have a meeting tomorrow where we have to review 20 really boring policies that have been handed down by the state. Like everything from smoking policies in the school to like how parents are supposed to behave in

at sporting events. These are very dense legal stuff. I can just load all of those in and basically be like, do I have any comments on this? They'll be like, yeah, you should ask this, this, and this. It just spits out, kids shouldn't smoke, parents should act like adults. That's what just spits out the bottom. There you go. Now Ari has his opinion. That's the thing. That's the greatest value I can possibly give to it other than being like,

Otherwise, I could just be in a meeting and be like, yeah, it looks good. You know, so that's really important. I have found with me, as much as it speeds things up, it also tends to slow things down. Because like if somebody sends me, like, for example, I'm working with some guys that are really good Substack AI developers and built an outbound system.

sales rep for me, built an outbound, I trained it, our scripts, our objections, our everything on calling through old leads for our agents, just trying to re-engage with old leads. You can make 10,000 calls a day, trained by me, really, really good. I mean, to the point where when they were testing it, I had it call me and I said, what other features look for in a house? And I'm like, well, I need a five bedrooms, four bath, and the kids are getting ready to leave for college. So me and the wife are going to need a sex dungeon. Okay.

And the AI replied back to that. The AI replied, okay, five betters for Beth. And apparently you and the wife are looking for some private time. Hey, no judgment. That's what it responded. And it was shocking that it said that. Like of everything else that happened during the call, that to me was the most profound. But these guys had sent me an NDA just to start getting this process working where normally I just would have breezed through it and been like, okay, no problem. And sent it back, sent it back. But instead I've sent it through and it was like, well, you know,

I sent it to chat GPT. What are the pitfalls for me in this NDA? And it was like, well, it's pretty standard with tech firms, but we don't like the feedback where they can essentially take everything that you're giving them back as feedback and use it to create products to sell to other people. And I was like, okay. So I pushed back on the feedback part of the NDA and the guys were like, yeah, no problem. We took, we'll take it out. So yes, as it's speeding things up, it's also kind of slowing things down because I'm like, well, wait a second. Something that I wouldn't even thought of before is now front of mind.

Yeah. And so by the way, have you tried sesame for the voice stuff? No, no, no, no. I'm going to write it down though. What is it? Goodness. Try having a conversation with Maya at sesame. Okay. It will blow your mind.

So, yeah, so that's the other thing that's been really great is the last couple weeks, ChatsGPT particularly had really updated their image generation capabilities. Yeah, great. Way better. We're building a new house right now. We're going to be moving in in June. And being able to say, this is the vanity that we bought from Restoration Hardware, and this is the lights that we just got from Crate & Barrel, put this into an image, and it does it is like,

Our designer was like, oh my God, I'm going to be out of a job. I was like, well, no, people still have to make the choices. Cause you can't, cause like you said, you can't teach taste. You can't quite get a taste. Mood boards where you're cutting and pasting things. Like now you can just throw it in. It's amazing. So that's been really great. Another thing is like,

I love the video feature in Cheshire so I can show it like, hey, like the other day I was making a recipe of biscuits with my son and the consistency just didn't look right. So I was like, does this look right? It's like, no, it's a little dry. Add this in. It just makes a lot of things easier. It really does. It's shocking. So I just, I'm guessing...

It's going to be interesting to see what we have. I'm going to lean hopefully into your positive thought that we'll just need more things and the world will adapt and not the dystopian future that Black Mirror has presented to us where we're all being hunted down by robot dogs. Because we're just, yeah, I mean, that's the day that we don't want is for you to be like, you know what? We don't really need you people. I don't know what you do. I don't know what you bring to the table here.

Have you ever seen the movie Runaways with Tom Selleck from the 80s? Yes, I have. Yes, yes, yes, yes. The cyborg. Right? So like, you know, we'll have to adapt. Maybe that'll be the new set of jobs is the people that have to hunt down and kill robots. More exciting than sitting at a desk. I guess that's how it is. All right. Well, Ari, if they want to find you, want to learn more about all of your great systems, if they want to work with you, man, how do they find you, man?

So everything is at let's do it.com. I do all of my coaching over Voxer asynchronously. So if people want to get in touch with Voxer, they can go to Vox with Ari.com. And I really, I really mean that reach out. It's going to be me. There's no automation there are no VAs. It's just me. And I love talking about productivity and help people grow their businesses.

I have one last question that I'm just curious about because I really don't know the answer to it. I can't seem to find the answer when I looked, which is this. So I became exposed to all of these kind of philosophies by reading Tim Ferriss's book, The 4-Hour Workweek. It was the first exposure I had to this. And I know you and Tim are friends. So my question is this, which kind of came first, the chicken or the egg? Was it Tim leaning on your ideas, you leaning a little bit back on Tim, or you guys coming together because you both had a similar idea path?

- Definitely Tim was first, there's no question. Tim was first. I was such a fan boy of Tim's and I don't know if I told you the story about how I met him. It was not-- - No, please, please. - Yeah, it was not the best way to be introduced to him but one thing I will say is that Tim has never had a family.

And, you know, it's very, very different when you're doing all this and you've got five kids and stuff and all this. I mean, and he's changed people's lives. No question. No one's going to respect. But I think we have sort of different approaches to some of these things. So I got asked to speak at Joe Polish's Genius Network event. I had no idea who he was or what the event was. I showed up and I walk into this room and I stand in the back wall. And to my right is Tim Ferriss. I was like, what?

Oh my God. Oh my God. And we were chatting. It was very nice. But then Joe gets up and introduces me and says, I'm about to bring up Ari Mizell. He is going to be the greatest productivity expert in the entire world, even better than Tim Ferriss. And I guess I got to go. So it's like, it's, and I've had Tim on the podcast a bunch. Oh man. Tim's an interesting character.

So, but no, he definitely was there first. There is no question. I would argue that I think a lot of my methods are very, very different. Very different. Well, cool. Well, I love it, man. Thank Ari. Thank you again for taking time to talk with us, man. I appreciate you so much. The second time, this was indeed better than the first. I'm so grateful for your time, buddy. I appreciate it.

My pleasure. All right. Well, wrap it up today, man. If you just listened to that, if you are somebody out there that feels like you can never get anything done, dude, I mean, there's so many methods out there to help you change that from chat GBT to just picking up one of Ari's books. I mean, if you want to go next level with some serious coaching, reach out to him. There are solutions available. You're just not taking advantage of them. We'll see you next time.

What's up, everybody? Thanks for joining us for another episode of Escaping the Drift. Hope you got a bunch out of it, or at least as much as I did out of it. Anyway, if you want to learn more about the show, you can always go over to escapingthedrift.com. You can join our mailing list. But do me a favor, if you wouldn't mind, throw up that five-star review, give us a share, do something, man. We're here for you. Hopefully, you'll be here for us. But anyway, in the meantime, we will see you at the next episode.

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Whether you prefer oral or topical treatments, HERS has you covered. Getting started is simple. Just fill out an intake form online and a licensed provider will recommend a customized plan just for you. The best part? Everything is 100% online. If prescribed, your treatment ships right to your door. No pharmacy trips, no waiting rooms, and no insurance headaches.

Plus, treatments start at just $35 a month. Start your initial free online visit today at forhers.com slash talk. That's F-O-R-H-E-R-S dot com slash talk. Tone Pounder products are not FDA approved or verified for safety, effectiveness, or quality. Prescription required. Price varies based on product and subscription plan. See website for full details, restrictions, and important safety information.