Exploring Ukrainian avant-garde: Oleksandra Ekster
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In this podcast, we talk a lot about Ukrainian culture because we believe that culture is one of the keys to understanding Ukraine. We also often discuss the Ukrainian avant-garde art of the early 20th century, its revolutionary capacity to connect the past and the future. In this episode, we will explore the life and works of Oleksandra Ekster, a prominent Ukrainian artist of that period.

We will discuss Cubo Futurism, the cultural identity of Kyiv, the role of women in Ukrainian art in the early 20th century and the connections between Ukrainian and European avant-garde art. Our guest for this episode is Anna Lodyhina, a Ukrainian art historian and journalist. She recently published a book in Ukrainian titled Stories of Ukrainian Artists, Aleksandra Ekster.

This conversation is moderated by Tetiana Oharkova, a Ukrainian literary scholar and journalist, author of the podcast "Ukraine Facing the War in French" and head of international outreach at Ukraine Crisis Media Center.

My name is Volodymyr Yarmolenko. I'm a Ukrainian philosopher and the chief editor of Ukraine World. Explaining Ukraine is a podcast by Ukraine World, an English language media outlet about Ukraine, run by Internet Ukraine. You can support our work on Patreon. The link is in the description. We rely heavily on crowdfunding right now. We can also support our volunteer trips to the frontline areas in Ukraine, where we provide support for both soldiers and civilians. You can donate via PayPal. The link is in the description.

This episode is produced in partnership with Kyiv Mahila Academy and the project Heritage Ukraine supported by the European Union's Erasmus program. So let's begin.

Anna, thank you very much for accepting our interview for our podcast. We are talking about Ukrainian heritage in this podcast. And more specifically, we'll be talking about Ukrainian avant-garde and about the personality from this Ukrainian avant-garde. You know it your best because you wrote a whole book about Alexandra Ekstra, Ukrainian artist who lived a part of her life in Paris.

So when we talk about Ukrainian avant-garde, a lot of questions come because a lot of people do not know that artists, they do know like Kazimir Malevich, like Ekster, like Sonia Delonay, many other people from this generation, they were Ukrainian.

And you published your book in a series which is entitled History of Ukrainian Artists. So why it is important for you personally and for Ukrainian culture in general to talk today about our past and about Ukrainian avant-garde? I must say that we know that Russia steal so many things from our houses and steal our territories. That is very hard for us to accept.

And knowing all this, I started the research of different Ukrainian artists like Alexandra Ekster, who is known in the whole world like a Russian painter. That is not true. And for me, it was very important to study, to research, to work with the first researchers about her and to find different

information connected about Ukraine and to prove that she was Ukrainian artist yes she was born in Bielostok that is Poland nowadays her father was Belarus mom was Greek and they moved to Kiev when Alexandra was two years old

But she lived in Kiev for 35 years. That is really a huge period of time, a very big one. And the whole life she said that she is a Kiev person who lived there, who was walking these streets. So many buildings connected to her and they are still here. For example, we have the house where she lived with her husband

husband, Mykola Ekster. It was in the center of Kiev and it was two levels house and ten rooms. There were her place where she made her most outstanding canvases that we know nowadays. And of course, it's very interesting. And also we have our national Ukrainian gallery.

And the first exhibition that was held there, one of the curators was Alexandra Ekster. And when you search for this information and you find there is really a big question how the world and how Russia can call her like Russian artist, because with Russia, she had a very small connection. She only worked with theater artists.

one theater that was organized and opened by Oleksandr Tayyirov, but also he was born on the territory of Ukraine, Poltava.

And she made a three, a scenography for three of his plays and also sketches for the costumes for those three plays. And maybe after Bolsheviks took the power in Kyiv and on the territory of Ukraine, she moved for several years, just, I guess, like three or

or four she lived in Moscow and that's all but the biggest part was connected to Ukraine and for us it's very important to make this research to analyze this biography the life and

everything that and legacy of such people like alexandra exter and then um communicate this information to the world and um giving them proofs why this person is ukrainian but not russian yeah and this identity is extremely important alexandra exter was born in 1992 yeah yeah so so she was

living on the border of the 19th and 20th century. You speak about this identity, as you describe in your book, this identity was empire at that time in Kiev, and you have brilliant descriptions of what Kiev was at that time, and what the education and artistic education specifically was at the time. It was Russian-speaking.

And unfortunately, we don't have texts written by Alexandra Ekster, right? Yeah, we don't have. She didn't have any notes or diaries. We have her correspondence, but it is now in Moscow archive, so we don't have any possibility to work with it.

just some extracts that were made and some researchers made before Russia occupied and invaded Ukraine. But what we see in these letters, she always called herself like a person who loved Kyiv, who was a Kyiv... How to say it? So...

yeah and yes she was born in Bielostok but 35 years connected her to Kiev and it was Russian Empire and Russia always take this fact like if these people lived in Russian Empire it means that they are Russians but it's not true Ukraine was the part of Russian Empire but all these people had their own stories had their own

culture, language and we know that the whole cities and whole territory was russified so the whole education was very imperialistic

And it was very hard to... only people in villages could use Ukrainian languages because in big cities it was forbidden to write, to publish books in Ukrainian, even to stage different plays or

compose music on Ukrainian words so there was a law we called like Valuisky Cirkla yes and Emsky Cirkla also yeah

that didn't allow people to develop Ukrainian culture, that why they needed just to learn Russian and to use it in their art. And even Alexandra Ekster, when she started in gymnasium,

in the center of the kiev it was also with these imperialistic ideas and when she finished it she had to be a teacher who had to go to other girls and study teach them all these imperialistic ideas and for me it's still a question how it happened that she was interested in art and she went to kiev art um

Like school? Yeah, school, and started to study it. And her teachers, for example, were very outstanding Ukrainian artists who worked with Ukrainian tradition, Ukrainian plots on their canvases. And this all had a big influence on her. And we can see it in her legacy. Also...

We must say that she was very connected with Verbivka that was in the center of Ukraine. It's still there. It's a village, yes? Yes, it's a village in Chukasskoye.

that was organized by her by extra friend Natalia Davidova and what they did they made some expedition during which they collect different types of Ukrainian embroidery and they just try to

to make it new and to collect it and renovate um and exter was so impressed by what she saw there in this verbivka all these colors dynamic of these colors contrast in these embroideries and it really influenced her and of course we don't have um she didn't paint um

Ukrainian plots but all these elements of Ukrainian culture like for example ceramics with these very specific paintings we can see on her canvases or even what else embroidery also and all these colors that she picked in this Ukrainian

national culture. Also we see it in her canvases, not only in the early period of time, but also when she was in France and even when she worked with Kubism or Kubofuturism. And what is extremely interesting when we talk about this popular embroidery art in Ukraine

it's linked to the avant-garde component of her work because it's not figurative art, it's art which is close to abstractionism. Her interest towards this embroidery explains at least partly

why she was so fond of these abstract forms and why, for example, Kazimir Malevich, who collaborated under her supervision, if I'm not mistaken, in this very project, because it was an event in St. Petersburg, in Moscow, in 1915. And so she was the chief of the project, which was combining avant-garde

avant-garde artists on one hand and this embroidery from Vrbivka, from the Ukrainian territory on the other hand. So there was just a combination of traditional Ukrainian art on one hand and all this kind of suprematism and abstractionism on the other hand. So this is extremely important just to read about all of these in your book.

and you explain it in detail and with some illustrations as well so and you also visited verbivka right yeah yeah i was there unfortunately this uh house and the place where this must embroidery mastery was is not there anymore because when bolsheviks um took um

like the leading of our country unfortunately and they ruined and destroyed the house and everything was just destroyed even all the sketches and all the works that were made unfortunately for us because what we see now it was really a big cultural

place that could have big development in the future but it was just finished because of when Bolsheviks came and unfortunately we don't have nothing there now to see but we know that in Russia they have also a project that calls the place Verbivka but they have Verbovka

where they try also to work with these sketches. Right now? Yes, right now. And they make these exhibitions even abroad. I saw that the previous summer they had something like this exhibition in Italy. Yes, and they...

what would i think that they just stole some sketches during this revolution they took to russia and they work still with these sketches and trying to um to show the world that this is theirs yes russian culture but it's not it's very ukrainian one and when you see it you you see the roots

This is what we call a next past, a next past of Ukrainian past. When Russian culture still now, which still has this characteristic of an empire, tries to present all this art from the past as being Russian, clearly enough we are in this paradigm of being big, great Russian culture, which is extremely false.

now because Russia is in war against Ukraine and they not only annexing our territories, as you said in the beginning, our houses and people, russifying people, just fighting against Ukrainian identity, but they also work a lot about the past. So this is tragic one. So when we talk about Oleksandra Ekster, whose first name was Asya Hryhurenko, so the typical Ukrainian surname, right?

She was open to European art from her young years. She traveled to Europe when she was 20. - Yes, around 21, I guess. And she had her first surname, Hryhorovych. And she never was abroad before her marriage. So when she was married and with her husband, they went to honeymoon.

to Europe and they visited Germany, also France and Switzerland. And for the first time she saw that art in Europe at that time was different than in Ukraine. In Ukraine it still were realistic canvases that reflect the reality around. It had to be very detailed like the world.

And Alexandra was in Paris, she saw that so many exhibitions there, so many books, publishing houses that work with art that is very different to Kyiv. And when she came back, she decided to make the first exhibition where she and other artists like her can show another art, not that art that were made by her teachers, for example.

So they made this first exhibition in 1908. And it was very scandalous.

And people didn't know how to react on this art. Because when we saw this, when we see these pictures, like we don't know what exactly were exhibited there. But we can see the art of Alexandra Ekster or David Burluk, Vladimir Burluk, their canvases of that period of time.

For us, they are very beautiful and we really like them. But for people who lived in Kiev like 120 years ago, it was so specific and they didn't... And new. And new, yes. They didn't like it at all. But what is very interesting about Ekster that...

She just continued doing these exhibitions. So this reaction of the people didn't react on her. She just continued making these exhibitions, showing her art and art of her friends who also continued to work there.

in these styles and what we see that people also used to this art during years so if in 19 and eight she like they didn't understand it but in four five years they just used to it and they start understanding this art and I think that also

they start also traveling more and some people could go to Munich to Paris and see what artists of that countries made and in comparison with Ukrainian art

it was even more specific. So they started to understand it. One may think that Kyiv was a kind of a provincial town at the time. But let's also recall that during avant-garde exhibitions somewhere in Paris, like...

in 1905 for example when the first Fauvism exhibition took place it was the same scandal so the public was not ready for this avant-garde painters be it in Kiev or in Paris so it was a common trend at the time so there were new people coming with new ideas with the idea not copy reality but create reality or study reality as Picasso put it

I do not copy reality, I study it. So what he was specifically doing in his cubism, and we see all these dynamics in many biographies, like in Kazimir Malevich, for example, who started with the traditional art, so-called more or less traditional art, and he was moving very fast towards suprematism, from cuba futurism, futurism and then suprematism, absence of any kind of

any kind of objective reality in a way. And so Exeter spent a lot of years in Europe, right? And specifically in Paris.

Can you describe these years? After her marriage, when she saw the first Paris and other cities and she was impressed and she moved to Paris and I guess something like eight years she lived between these two cities, Kiev and Paris. And she studied in two academies in Paris just improving the technique. And also it was...

very important for her to see how the art is developing to have these new connections with contemporary artists of that time and we know that she knew for example Pablo Picasso Fernand Leger um Hume Apollinaire uh with whom she not even like um had some friendship but also exhibitions where they show their canvases on the same exhibitions um so um

that was a very valuable time for her and when she came to Ukraine she could show how art is changing and she also for example took with herself to Kyiv some reproductions of contemporary artists so people who didn't have this possibility to travel could see what is now Pablo Picasso is doing and we have some memories of

One actress, Alisa Cohen, who describes in her book that when you are in Alexander Ekstra's house, there is a big combination of two cultures, European and Ukrainian. And you can see these Ukrainian embroideries, carpets, ceramics, and even this Ukrainian specific art.

in combination with European art where you can see these canvases and she called I think it was reproductions of Pablo Picasso for example but after the first World War I started it was impossible for her to travel anymore so she lived after that time in Kiev and for 10 years she lived just in Ukraine and

and a small part of time in Moscow and then she just moved to Paris again but to live 25 years till her death because it was impossible to stay in in Kiev or even in Moscow and continue to work with the same style because you know that in um

USSR and not at the beginning but a little bit later they start it was forbidden to work in in avant-garde style you can work only in social realism and if you are not doing it you will be killed or you will be sent to the camps what we know for example from the experience of other Ukrainian artists who were killed and for example we had like

Mikhail Boychuk with his students who were just killed and all their art, almost all their art were also destroyed. So we even don't have possibility to see how it looked like. And also, you know that in Ukraine we have only three original canvases of Ekster and also some sketches for her theater works.

It's not a big amount of works. Why it happened? I think that some part of her works also could be destroyed when she moved. Because when she moved first to Moscow and then to Paris, she just left all her stuff, all her things in that houses where she lived. It was impossible to take everything with herself.

So I think that it was destroyed. And we know also that some people came to their houses and asked the owner of the house where she lived to buy these canvases. But we don't know the history after. Like these people had possibility to buy or not and what happened. And also so many canvases are in private collections right now. That is...

also very strange and we understand that somehow these canvases should be given to these people. Maybe Esther really liked to present, to make presents and to give people her canvases, but not all of them of course. So maybe somehow in this revolutionary time, like we see now from our experience now during war,

that Russia, when Russia invaded Ukraine, they steal canvases from the museums. Some of them are in Crimea, we know, or they took it to Moscow or somewhere. But some canvases can be just stolen during this period of time and can be in private collections. And I think that 100 years ago, it was even more chaotic

And so that is why so many canvases, I think, are in private collections. Yeah, this is a fundamental question when we talk about heritage, about artistic heritage. We've seen with our own eyes what happened in Kherson Art Museum, for example, when Russian forces just days before Ukrainians liberated the area, they took 90% of the collection of this museum and transported it to Crimea and Ukraine.

don't really know what happened to it next. Maybe it's in Crimea, maybe it's already transported somewhere in Russia. Maybe somebody already has it in his private collections. And we are talking about very famous painters like Ivozovsky, like Tetiana Jablońska and many, many other prominent Ukrainian artists

artists and so they will be presented as Russians if we do not liberate Crimea for sure and if this war does not take end in a just way so that's why just peace is extremely important and so we are talking about this about this heritage of Alexandra Ekstra which is

which is almost inexistent, because you have three painters here and then some texts there. And as you've mentioned, all her correspondence, a major part of her correspondence is in the Moscow museums now. And what you do in your book, you try to reconstruct this biography, this life,

this creativity, this woman, just in a very virtual way, because you cannot touch all of this. But at the same time, when we talk about extra, you have a brilliant description of what, for example, Ukrainian capital looked like.

in the in the in the beginning of the century but also later than when bolshevik came and then you describe the moment when extra was a kid was uh she left kiev behind because she traveled to odessa trying to escape bolsheviks and she spent one year right in odessa maybe describe this time of her life um you know um

When Bolsheviks came for the first time, they were like two weeks in Kiev. It was a very hard period of time for her. And she remembered, even in Paris, how hard it was for her, hard to work. And now we have all these basements where we can sleep.

spent some time they didn't have these basements so and she lived in the center and we know that Bolsheviks bombed the center of the Kiev and so many people died and so many buildings were ruined so it was really very hard for her so when Bolsheviks came for the first for the second time in one year

She decided that I will take just a small luggage and I will go to Odessa for two weeks. And maybe like the previous time, they also will be there for two weeks. And so I can come back. But it wasn't like that. So she moved with this small luggage.

But unfortunately, Bolsheviks took Kiev and in two months, I guess, they took Odessa where she was. And she understood that it's quite difficult for her to escape and that Bolsheviks, it looked like they are for a long period of time, not two weeks. And there was one episode when they came to Odessa, they forced her to be...

like the main artist who work for the demonstration dedicated to the 1st of May

and she had so many like a brigade with other artists and they had to create different canvases dedicated to bolsheviks and even in paris she always remember this episode like it was the last night before demonstration they were very tired and one of the artists pour the color on the face of one of the bolsheviks and um

one of the Bolsheviks who were just looking on the process like they were doing it he was very angry and he said that to Ekster that if you don't wash it yes like I will kill you

And she was very afraid and she did it, of course. And she changed this canvas. Everything was all right. But she was so scared that even after 30 years of this situation, she remembered it was the most scary moment in her life. So what we can see, yes, she loved really her country. She loved the city where she lived.

but it was very dangerous for her to stay there longer and when Bolsheviks came we see that life before them were very for them was quite okay and she was rich and

She lived in the center of the Kiev. In a 10-bedroom apartment, right? Yes, yes. So she had quite a good life. But when Bolsheviks came, everything changed. And we know that there was no food in Kiev and it was very hard to find any job. So she decided to go to Moscow. And she was just searching for work that can give her money to live at least...

Let's also explain to our audience that Alexandra Ekster was married, but her husband died in 1918. And that's why she had to earn her life simply. Yes, and she was alone. But what was good for her in Moscow for this period of time, she married for the second time.

with the actor Georgy Nekrasov, and together, after four years, they moved to Paris, because they understood that the situation is not changing. Yes, maybe they have some money, but the power was very limited,

and they have no possibility just to work and make an art like they did before. That's why there was Venice Biennale,

Some works of Exeter were demonstrated in the USSR place and she moved and just didn't come back. She stayed in France. First, she lived for six years in Paris and then she moved to Fontenay-Ros. It's not far away from Paris where she had to rent a house and she just continued working there.

very hard because she was something like 40, 40 plus years. And for her, it was very difficult to start new life with new connections. And after everything that she went through in Ukraine. So it was a dramatic life with a lot of challenges with the war, with the revolution, with Odessa period. She could have left Odessa directly to Italy, right?

what you describe in your book that she had a love story with one Italian painter back before the First World War and she had some plans and as far as her husband died he could have moved to him but at that moment she was convinced he died he was killed during the First World War and

which appeared to be not true later on, but so she traveled to Moscow. In 24, let's look back. So let's imagine if she could have stayed in the Soviet Union.

It could be even more tragic story because we do remember what happened to Berezili theater here in Kyiv, in Kharkiv mostly. We do know what happened to all these Ukrainian Renaissance people like Mikolaj Hvili writers, but also painters. We do know that Burluk, you mentioned two brothers, Burluk, Volodymyr and David, they also emigrated abroad, firstly to Japan, if I'm not mistaken, then later to the United States. And Russians...

they still present Volodymyr and David Borluk as Russian painters, even if both are from this old Cossack family and their mansion was in Kherson Oblast, in Kherson region, now unfortunately also occupied by Russian forces from this Chernyanka region.

where they organized this group, avant-garde group of, by the way, not only painters, but also poets like Klebnikov and Mayakovsky. I'm not sure about Mayakovsky, but Klebnikov and Benedict Lipschitz. You also write in your book about this. Russians present him as a Russian poet.

poet and writer but we know that he was from Odessa yes and he was from Odessa and he was Jewish moreover he was also killed so in 37 yes in 37 and

The same destiny had other artists. What Russia is doing, they just steal all these names and they build the myths of big Russian culture on the names of not only Ukrainians, we must say. For example, they also call that Chagall is Russian, but it's not true. He's from Belarus. He's also Jewish. Yes, and he's Jewish. And then he moved to France.

So it's very strange. I remember in one French museum I've seen this painting of Chagall and the description was...

French painter of Russian origin. So just to name somebody, somebody who's Jewish, who was born in Belarus, being French painter of Russian origin. Yeah, it's very strange. But I think that just Europe doesn't understand what was going on here. And for all of them, it was all Russian empire and they didn't understand what was going inside. And you know, just yesterday, I pay attention to the map of

of that period of time and we see like France, Germany and then just a big

a big huge yes part russian empire and it's it's hard to understand what is inside for all of europe it was russian empire and now russia just um use it to build this myth unfortunately and alexandra ekstra kazimir malevich all these artists start to be russians but of

Yeah, Repin was born in Chuguyiv, close to Kharkiv region. When we travel to front lines today, we cross Chuguyiv and you go from Kharkiv to Slovyansk, for example, so this Chuguyiv is a place where Yarepin, who is also from old Cossack family, right? There was discussion, debates about how do you write correctly his name, Repin, or otherwise. But it's clear that it comes from the family from Ripa.

But then all these discussions are there. You know, it's also interesting that Russia tried to maybe not kill exactly these people, but to destroy, ruin their art. And they made a big trauma for all these people. And they suffered so much. Alexandra Ekster, Kazimir Malevich, we know that Kazimir Malevich was tortured. And after that, he died very quickly. And now when these people died...

And these are very famous abroad. Russia use their biography and art and call them. But first they wanted just to ruin these people. And using them as a soft power today saying this great culture.

Maybe the last question to you, Anna, about this last period of Alexandra Ekstra abroad. So we do know that she spent a big part of her life, last part of her life, 25 years in France. And we do know a lot of successful examples of Ukrainians being abroad somewhere in France, like Sonia Delonay or maybe some others. And unfortunately, this is not true for Alexandra Ekstra because being abroad, she has not become famous.

famous French artist unfortunately she had some work she had some some commands she produced some art but she had never become a famous in France why could you explain us I think that

it was much easier for people who emigrated if they come, for example, to France and just forgot about everything they had at home. All these...

past life and they just start to be integrated into French society or German society for Alexandra X-Ray it was very hard after everything that she went through in Ukraine revolution war and coming of Bolsheviks

And when she came, yes, she had a big experience. She was super professional. That's why she was invited to be a teacher in the art academy of Fernand Lejeune, who was her friend. And they studied even in one of the academies like decades before.

And she decorated also a gallery of Lafayette. She illustrated books, even children's books. So she had work. But that period of time, there was a time of surrealists.

and she didn't accept them. And for her, it was hard to start developing this style. She didn't like it. She thought that it was very commercial, and she didn't want to do that. Also, the second part, she really wanted to work with theatres and to make scenography. And unfortunately, that period of time in France, they were not interested in her works.

That's why for her it was really very hard. She had some problems with health and always...

looking for any project just to have some money and to have food and have possibility to rent the house we see it and and we know that also World War II started that was also hard for her so another big war during one human life yes yes so it was really very hard for her and after World War II World War II

were over it her second husband also died you know it's also hard and she stayed in occupation right because she never moved from yes so she lived in occupation and saw all these terrible things that happened there and it's too much for one life of course and she died just in Fontaineau Ross and

that is near Paris, far from her homeland. And we see in her letters that she was, you know, she really wanted to go home. And she writes that if I had power, I would just go by foot home. But of course it was impossible. It was impossible because it was Soviet times and because it was dangerous and because she left in the West.

without any legal permission, as we can imagine. So she left Soviet Union like, I'm going to Venice to this exhibition, to this Soviet pavilion, but she stayed there, so she could have had serious problems if she could come back here. And unfortunately, all this heritage, all this legacy of Alexandra Ekster, we can read about this in your book. We can also see some illustrations, but a lot of things are lost here.

But we still try to research this Ukrainian heritage because it was an extremely brilliant time

for Ukrainian artists and a lot of talented people were alive and they were creating this Ukrainian avant-garde, very close to European avant-garde, with all these exchanges and dialogues you described in your book. Thank you very much, Anna, for this dialogue and for this exchange and specifically for your book, which opens a lot of new pages for Ukrainian audience and we do hope for our international friends. Thank you very much. Thank you.

This was a podcast explaining Ukraine by Ukraine World, an English language media outlet about Ukraine. Ukraine World is run by Internet Ukraine and my name is Vladimir Yermolenko. I am the chief editor of Ukraine World and the president of Pan-Ukraine.

This episode was a conversation between Anna Lodyhina, a Ukrainian art historian and journalist, and Tetiana Oharkova, a Ukrainian literary scholar and journalist about Oleksandra Ekster, a prominent Ukrainian artist of the early 20th century.

You can support our work on Patreon, the link is in the description. Your support is crucial for us as we rely heavily on crowdfunding right now. You can also support our regular volunteer trips to the frontline areas in Ukraine where we provide support for both soldiers and civilians. You can donate via PayPal, the link is also in the description.

This episode is produced in partnership with Kyiv Mahila Academy and the project Heritage Ukraine, supported by the European Union's Erasmus program. Thank you for listening. Stay with us and stand with Ukraine.