Philippa Faulks Lee - Cagliostro: Enigma & Martyr - PRE-RELEASE
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Greetings from the North, citizens of Earth, welcome to Forum Borealis. Today I invite you to travel back in time with me while we brush the dust of an enigmatic figure.

But I will not introduce you to him, rather let him present himself. So pay attention. Io sono Cagliostro. It so happens I have taken under my patronage an extraordinary man. He is Grand Master of the Illuminati, the German mystic elite. He is an accomplished alchemist and mesmerist who claims to have conquered disease and death several times over.

His visions and prognostications have proven accurate time again. Count Cogliostro, we are on it. I sense that many of you have questions for me, queries that concern love, faith, even betrayal. But these answers will have to wait. I'm drawn to a face that's new.

You seek an alliance with the Cardinal, yes? I am certain many people bring favorable offers before his eminence. But your alliance is what concerns us tonight. Contest the remote. Cagliostro enriched a number of curious symbols, embodying the mystical arts the Count was involved in.

Elements from Hermeticism, like the Caduceus-shaped signature clip and the Calliostro family sigil, Kabbalah, represented by the Tree of Life grid. Fashioned in precious metal, the 12 zodiac signs to tell his story and his spell.

Revealing its other side, Calliostro introduces you to the depths of Freemasonry with the magnified figures of the Illuminati's pyramid and the square and compasses symbol. The masterpiece virtuous maze of silver and gold works ends with the four elements of the alchemy: fire, air, water and earth. The Calliostro legacy is also read in the mystic numbers

289 as the street number of the London Masonic Lodge the Count was admitted to, 22 as the paths of life for the 10 Sephiroth on the Tree of Life. No detail is left behind. Symbolism, craftsmanship and precision. Calliostrope had mystical powers.

I think now only one action can set this right. The case must be tried in open Parliament. That would be a grave mistake. It is within the King's sovereign right to pass judgment on this matter. Why place it in less sympathetic hands? Because the people now only respect the judgment of Parliament. If Parliament convicts Roy War as the sole perpetrator of the crime, my name will be absolved. And if they acquit him, is it not tantamount to saying that you are guilty? His Majesty is correct.

You could not be tried, of course, but the guilt would fall to you all the same. Public vindication, House Minister. I will accept nothing less. Now, what you just heard was clips from the 2001 movie The Affair of the Necklace with none other than Christopher Walken as Cagliostro, the legend whose bio we will examine today. And here's a brief review of what's to come.

Welcome to this episode preview of Forum Borealis. Get ready because we're diving into the life and legacy of Count Cagliostro, a man who knew how to make an entrance in 18th century Europe. Cagliostro was shrouded in controversy, a figure who seemed to embody the very essence of magic and intrigue. Was he an English spy? A Jesuit priest? The illegitimate son of an Arabian prince? Or

or even an Egyptian raised in the pyramids. Some accounts even claim he was an amphibian, born from sea foam. It's as if he emerged from a fantastical realm. So who is the man behind the myth? Some historians point to Giuseppe Balsamo, a mischievous youth born in Palermo in 1743. But was Balsamo truly Cagalastro? Or were they two distinct individuals? The mystery deepens when we consider Balsamo's early life. A scandalous prank during mass involving a litany of prostitutes. Expulsion from school.

and a fascination with chemistry and esoteric knowledge. Imagine a young Balsamo, drawn to the secrets of the universe, seeking knowledge that lay beyond the confines of traditional institutions. And then he seemingly vanishes, only to reemerge on the European stage as the enigmatic Count Cagliostro. He embarks on a grand tour with his wife Lorenza, later known as Serafina, captivating high society with their charm and mystique. It was a carefully crafted persona, but perhaps also a genuine expression of their shared yearning for a life less ordinary.

Lorenzo would befriend influential noblemen while Cagliostro, with his knowledge of art, alchemy, and healing, would secure positions that allowed him to move within elite circles. In 1776, Cagliostro was initiated into Freemasonry in London, a pivotal moment in his journey. Cagliostro never wanted to conform.

rejected traditional Masonic teachings, claiming to have discovered a lost Egyptian manuscript containing secret knowledge about the moral regeneration of humankind. Imagine Cagliostro, standing before the Masonic brethren, challenging their long-held beliefs, his voice, described as...

A trumpet muted by a crate veil, echoing through the chamber. His charisma was undeniable, and people flocked to hear his teachings, drawn to his promise of spiritual enlightenment. This led him to establish Egyptian Masonry, a controversial offshoot that sought to unlock hidden truth and elevate humanity to a higher level of consciousness. His seances, his apparent ability to heal the sick, to see into the future, it all contributed to an aura of power and mystery that captivated those seeking something more than the material world could offer.

And in Cagliostro, they found someone who seemed to offer a glimpse of the divine.

But not everyone was convinced. Absolutely. He had his detractors. Catherine the Great, for example, felt so threatened by his influence that she wrote plays denouncing him as a charlatan. But consider this. Why would a powerful empress feel the need to attack a traveling mystic unless she perceived him as a genuine threat to her authority? It makes you wonder if his detractors were more afraid of his power than skeptical of his abilities. And then there was that bizarre regeneration therapy.

where people would follow a strict diet, believing it would lead to a complete renewal of the body. Apparently their hair and teeth would fall out, their skin would peel off, and then voila, they'd be as good as new.

but it speaks to Cagliostro's ability to tap into the human desire for transformation, for a chance to shed their old selves and embrace a more perfect existence. But Cagliostro's path, it wasn't always easy. In 1785, he became entangled in the infamous Diamond Necklace Affair, a scandal that rocked the French court and ultimately led to his downfall. The details of the affair are complex, but in essence, Cagliostro was caught in a web of deceit,

manipulated by those who sought to use his influence for their own gain, Jeanne de Lamotte, a cunning woman with a grudge against the queen, saw Cagliostro as a pawn in her elaborate scheme to steal an incredibly valuable diamond necklace. Cardinal Rohan, desperate to regain the favor of Marie Antoinette, was easily duped by Jeanne de Lamotte's forged letters and promises of reconciliation.

He believed Cagliostro possessed mystical powers that could aid him in his quest. Cagliostro, always a compassionate soul, sought to help the Cardinal. Unaware of the true nature of the plot, he believed he was acting as a mediator, a peacemaker.

But instead, he was being used as a scapegoat. Jeanne de Lamotte, realizing her scheme was unraveling, pointed the finger of blame at Cagliostro, accusing him of being the mastermind behind the theft. Cagliostro, imprisoned in the Bastille, endured months of interrogation and psychological torture. Imagine the despair, the sense of betrayal, as he realized he was a victim of a cruel conspiracy.

Despite the lack of evidence, Cagliostro was initially sentenced to death. But his supporters, recognizing the injustice of his situation, rallied to his cause. The sentence was commuted to life imprisonment. But the king, perhaps fearing Cagliostro's growing influence, banished him from France. Even in exile, Cagliostro's spirit remained unbroken. He penned an open letter to the French people, a powerful indictment of the corruption and tyranny that he believed would ultimately lead to the downfall of the monarchy.

His words proved prophetic as just a few years later, the French Revolution erupted. The very Bastille where he had been imprisoned stormed by the people. Was this a coincidence? Cagliostro returned to London where he was once again embraced by the elite. He even received visits from the Duchess of Devonshire and the Children of the King that even after such a public scandal, people still believed in him.

It's a testament to his enduring charisma and the power of his message. But his enemies were not finished with him yet. Enter Charles Thévenot de Morand, a man who embodied the darker side of the Enlightenment, a blackmailer, a French spy, and publisher of the Courrier Dessert, a newspaper known for its scandalous gossip and political intrigue. Initially,

Moran feigned friendship with Cagliostro, hoping to exploit him for sensational stories. But when Cagliostro refused to pay for favorable press, Morandi turned against him.

launching a vicious smear campaign designed to destroy his reputation. Morana's attacks were relentless, dredging up old rumors, twisting facts, and mocking Cagliostro's beliefs. He even ridiculed Cagliostro's claim that he had fed his livestock arsenic-laced fodder in Arabia to poison tigers that preyed upon them. It was a ludicrous accusation, of course, but it played to the public's fascination with the outlandish and reinforced the perception of Cagliostro as a charlatan. Cagliostro, ever

Ever the showman. Challenge Miranda to a poisoned pork duel, a bizarre spectacle in which they would both feast on a suckling pig prepared according to Cagliostro's secret methods. The wager was that Miranda would die within 24 hours, while Cagliostro would remain unharmed. Wisely, perhaps. Decline the challenge. But the story only added to Cagliostro's legend, showcasing his audacity and willingness to confront his enemies head-on. It's a testament to Cagliostro's unwavering belief in his own abilities.

Even in the face of relentless attacks, he refused to be silenced. But his time in London was drawing to a close. Cagliostro's health was failing, ravaged by tertiary syphilis.

and he yearned to return to Italy, to Rome, with his beloved Serafina, but the Catholic Church viewed Cagliostro as a dangerous heretic. Despite the risks, Cagliostro and Serafina received assurances that they would be allowed to return to Rome, as long as they renounced Freemasonry and kept a low profile. It was a desperate gamble, a longing for peace in the twilight of their years. Upon their arrival in Rome, Cagliostro was arrested by the Inquisition, betrayed by the one person he trusted most, his

His wife, Serafina. It's hard to imagine. Driven to desperation by her husband's declining health and fearing for his safety and her own, denounced him to the authorities, hoping perhaps to save him from himself. A truly tragic act of love and despair. She had witnessed Cagliostro's mental deterioration, his growing paranoia, and she believed that by turning him over to the Inquisition, she could protect him from an even worse fate.

The Inquisition saw Cagliostro as a genuine threat to their authority, a symbol of everything they opposed, reason, freedom of thought, and the pursuit of knowledge beyond the confines of the church. And so the charges against him became a bizarre mix of...

exaggeration and outright fabrication. They accused him of heresy, sorcery, and even let's just say they accused him of demanding that his followers worship a very personal part of his anatomy. Oh my goodness. It seems that they were trying to demonize him and discredit his teachings. Precisely. They couldn't refute his charisma, his knowledge, or the genuine good he had done. So they resorted to character assassination and outlandish accusations. Cagliostro was found guilty and initially sentenced to death. But the Pope,

perhaps recognizing the absurdity of the charges, commuted the sentence to life imprisonment. Cagliostro was sent to the isolated castle of San Leo, a fortress perched high on a cliff face, where he died in 1795. A tragic end for a man who had once captivated all of Europe. But even in death, Cagliostro's story didn't end. His legacy lived on.

inspiring artists, writers, and revolutionaries. He became a symbol of resistance against tyranny, of the enduring human spirit that refuses to be silenced. Calliostro's life was a whirlwind of contradictions and mysteries. But was he a genuine mystic, or just a master of illusion? Was he a compassionate healer, a cunning trickster, or perhaps all of these things at once? That's the question that has captivated people for centuries. The answer, my friend, lies in the eye of the beholder.

He forced people to confront their own beliefs about the nature of reality, to embrace the unknown, and to never stop searching for the truth, even if it lies beyond the boundaries of what we consider possible. Now you know the gist of the matter. But before we deep dive, let me say a few words about our guest tonight. Philippa Lee, also known as Philippa Forks.

Issa is a professional writer, ghostwriter, author, editor, researcher, journalist and writing coach who live between Egypt and the UK.

She's worked in various aspects of the publishing industry for two decades, but was originally trained as an aromatherapist and masseuse, with a special focus on ancient herbology and complementary medicine, which laid the groundwork for her later exploration of the intersections between spirituality, psychology and wellness.

In the 80s, she began exploring topics such as ancient history, esotericism and meditation, which would later become central to her professional work.

In the 90s, she entered the publishing industry, honing her craft as an editor and proofreader. She began working on non-fiction manuscripts, establishing a reputation for meticulous attention to detail and passion for historical accuracy. This period also marked the beginning of her interests in Freemasonry and comparative religion, subjects that would later define much of her writing.

By the early 2000s, Filippa had transitioned into freelance writing and research, digital content editing, copy editing, proofreading, mainstream and specialist non-fiction books and magazines, collaborating with clients in both private and professional sectors.

editing over 40 books on subjects ranging from history and anthropology to psychology and spirituality. Between 2000 and 2005, she was director at Forks Books Limited, where she oversaw the publication of several books on esoteric subjects. In 2005, she became project manager for the Magdalena Group,

a charity fundraiser that aimed to support women's empowerment and education. In 08, she co-authored The Masonic Magician,

The life and death of Count Cogliostra in the Egyptian Rite, which became a significant milestone. It explores the fascinating life of this historical figure we are examining today, together with her co-author Robert Cooper, they examine the case made against him, that he was an imposter as well as a heretic, and find that the church and history itself have done him a great injustice. In

In turn, she proceeded to publish a handbook for the Freemason's wife, offering practical guidance for those connected to the Masonic community. The same year, she also published Hannah Magic, crafting charms and rituals with sacred body art, which delves into the historical and spiritual significance of Hannah in various cultures.

During the 2010s, her career flourished as she continued to write, edit and research extensively. Filippa expanded her expertise during this decade by taking on roles as a ghostwriter, contributing to numerous publications under different names, as well as publishing as both Fawkes and Lee.

Her areas of expertise include historical studies, Egyptology, travel memoirs, psychology and anthropology, with a dedication to uncovering truths, however complex and uncomfortable they may be. She was certified in publishing by the Publishing Training Center in 11 and later certified in editing by the same institution in 14.

Between 11 and 15, she served as publishing manager for E.O.N. Allen Publishing, also known as Lewis Masonic, the world's oldest and largest Masonic publisher, where she worked on several high-profile projects. In 12, her book Modern Mantras came out, which is a simple guide to the mastery of autosuggestion.

This was followed up in 13 by the Zen diet revolution, the mindful path to permanent weight loss. In 14, she was initiated into the honorable fraternity of ancient Freemasons, hence achieving an inner understanding of masonry. In 15, she republished the 1912 book, Cogliostro, the Unknown Master, a Critical and Historical Study of High Magic,

by Dr. Mark Haven, a close associate of the legendary Papus. Between 16 and 19, she was publishing and research consultant at Monument Press, but a passion for understanding human behavior led her to pursue a Bachelor of Science in Psychology at the Open University, which she completed between 17 and 20.

Between 18 and 23, Philippa Fawkes Lee served as the editor of The Square magazine, a prominent independent publication dedicated to Freemasonry. Here she managed the content, edited articles and ensured the magazine maintained its reputation for high quality, insightful pieces.

In the 20s, she remains an active writer, editor and researcher. In her capacity as a freelance feature and content writer, she has penned over 50 articles that spans topics such as history esotericism, ancient and modern Egypt, health and Freemasonry for a variety of publications, including the Square magazine, Freemasonry Today, Watkins Mind, Body, Spirit magazine and the Daily Mail.

In 20, she was certified in Copyright Essentials by the Publishing Training Center. And in 23, she was certified in Information, Advice and Guidance from the Skills Network.

No wonder then that she offers personalized mentoring services helping to navigate the complexities of the industry. With two decades of experience and being proficient in all aspects of text and picture research, she provides guidance by offering both one-to-one and group coaching and consultancy. With courses tailored for new writers, established authors and individuals pursuing a publishing career.

She has presented a paper on the alchemical links within Freemasonry at the prestigious Cannonbury Masonic Research Centre conference, made appearances on BBC One and Edge Media TV, and has been featured in journals like Freemasonry for Men and Women, as well as in both national and regional newspapers with regard to her writing, but also her campaign for hearing awareness.

Indeed, she is a passionate rare disease advocate, specifically for hereditary spastic paraplegia and hearing loss. She is the UK ambassador for the Spastic Paraplegia Foundation and a member of the Research Meetings Committee for the HSP UK support group and the Global Genes Rare Compassion Programme.

Her contributions continue to inspire and inform a wide audience through her blog at medium.com and her official website, philippa-lee.com, maintaining an active presence and regularly sharing updates into her work and ongoing projects on writing, research and advocacy.

Throughout her career, Filippa has received praise for her contributions to literature and publishing and commendations from various authors and collaborators who highlights her professionalism, creativity and ability to bring complex topics to life, which is exactly what we will try to do today. Welcome to Forum Borealis, Filippa. Hi Al, thank you for inviting me on.

Such a pleasure, such a pleasure. I think we should start off by a disclaimer and making our audience aware that by some miracle or maybe black magic, I'm actually speaking with a deaf person or at least a hearing impaired person. Yep.

and by the magic of the dark arts of Bluetooth hearing aids, I am able to hear you loud and clear. That's perfect.

But if, I mean, I have an accent on top of everything, right? So if there should be some problem, maybe we'll edit some, but basically you feel free to ask me to repeat or clarify and I'll try to speak with a clear pronunciation. Oh, you have an amazing pronunciation and I'm completely bowled over by your English. I mean, well, I can...

quite happily say that my Norwegian is zilch. So therefore, yeah, I'm really impressed. Well, I've heard that before. It's weird because in Norway, we are the country with most dialects compared to the number of citizens. So we have a lot of different, I mean, two different Norwegian dialects may sound like two different languages. And

It has to do with remote areas, sparsely populated after the Black Plague, huge mountain dividing us, etc. So things were developing locally. And my, just coincidentally, the one I'm having from Bergen, the west coast of Norway, for some reason, people from UK and USA

my accent. They think it's like pleasant on the air or something. It was even a listener, a British listener said I should have like an honorary UK citizenship and make this English dialect. It's great. You have a very sort of sonorous, lilting voice. It's quite hypnotic actually. Maybe some, you know, kind of

sort of relaxing tapes or something like that because people... Oh, that's so funny that you say. See? Intuition. I have because I was a meditation coach for 10, 15 years. So I did live... Oh, I don't work, have I? Yeah, yeah.

So there you go. No, but it's good because I think it's because my dialect, we speak very clearly. It's a kind of a hard kind of dialect, but I just imagine that will be easier for you to pick up. That's right. Than some muddy stuff. But we'll see how this goes.

Now, I have you on, of course, based on two books you've been involved in. Firstly, I think it's the ever-first translation of Mark Haven's book on Cagliostro.

And then you've gone about and made your own book, which I haven't read, so I can't vet it, but I assume it's great and we'll see because your level of insight will obviously point to what we can expect in the book. And I've been wanting to have a program on Cagliostro for the very reason that I find that he is slandered.

and misunderstood and he pops up in popular culture all over the place but always like some kind of dubious character yeah and if you look right and if you look into him you'll see he really deserves his own show and that's the intention of of speaking with you now so let's let me start with asking you why why did you go into Cagliostro at all oh gosh okay

This is a bit of a long story. Basically, I was looking for a subject to research and I was put in touch with Robert Cooper, who's the, well, he's a very well-known Masonic author for a start. But he is a librarian at the Grand Lodge of Scotland and he discovered this little book called

And I was talking to him. I don't know how we got on the subject. And I was talking to him back earlier. And he said, I've got one of his books. I was like, yeah, right. Okay. And he says, no, no, no. I've got this little ritual book. It's in French. Okay. Wow. So we kind of took it from there. His late wife took wonderful photographs of all the pages and sent them over. And

Both Bob and I had no real sort of ability to read French. Mine was kind of schoolgirl French. And so having looked through it, I said to him, this is actually something really, really, really special, something different. So we approached a publisher and said, what do you think of this idea? We'll get this ritual translated. We'll look into the sky. We've read a bit about him. He seems, you know...

spectacularly characteristic. We think it'd make an amazing book. And they said, yeah, go for it. Bob came up with the wonderful title of the Masonic Magician. It was just one of those kind of light bulb moments. Wow, yeah. So I started researching into Cagliostro deeper. And of course, it came through that he's this incredible bombastic character who

And we'd sent the ritual off to be translated. And it was a university translation unit that did it for us. And when it came back, it was just incredible because it was the first time

full English translation of Calligotus' Egyptian ritual. Oh my God, this is history shattering. Look, I have a couple of questions before you go on. First off, a university will not know the lingo, the jargon of ritualism. So I hope you cleaned that up. But second, has it been vetted? Is it actually vetted?

Was it actually belonging to Cagliostro to begin there? Yeah, basically. I mean, it was known that he had written this ritual, obviously, because it then went on to influence various other Masonic or pseudo-Masonic rituals, things like the Rite of Memphis, Mizraim. Yeah. So his influence was already well known and out there. It's just that nobody had actually...

put together an English version of, or translation rather, of this ritual that had pretty much been lost. Yeah, that's my point. Is there a providence for this? It was, it had been in the collection of a guy that had lived in France

And his widow donated it to the Library Museum, Grand Lodge of Scotland. And it just laid there for ages, nobody taking notice of it. Because if you look at it, it's a really unassuming little book. You know, it's just got a hardcover. And inside is this sort of lovely 18th century script. Hmm.

And so, I mean, it was just by chance that Bob found it. I think he was actually going through doing some more cataloguing or something, and it was literally just kind of like this book was wedged in between loads of other bigger ones. Your question about the university, we found someone that was actually –

well-versed in 18th century French for a start. And I was in touch with them frequently because they would come back to me and say, what does this mean with regards to Freemasonry or to do with ritual or alchemy or whatever? So

It was very... It was a close collaboration. And when we got it back and read through it, I mean, it is a brilliant translation, really. I think, you know, they captured the voice of it completely. So, yeah, that kind of blew us away a bit. Okay, okay. But then I must ask, is this republished in your book on Cogliostro? Yeah. And that was kind of the whole basis of it is that the...

We revolve the whole book around the ritual. So the translation is in there in full. We also do a commentary on what we found within the ritual. And then kind of to obviously shed light on Kaliastra himself, we then looked into his life, his travels around Europe and,

um who he mixed with i mean it kind of you know reads like an a to z of some of the most famous freemasons alchemists um mystics you know you name it and because it was that time you know the age of enlightenment when you had you know free thinkers sort of on every corner pretty much yeah and it was an interesting time politically as well obviously which again we we kind of go into that and

and also talk about his various contemporaries. Yeah, I'm going to ask you all about these things. But I'm looking at the index of your book, the contents. I'm assuming it's part three where you're reproducing this ritual? Oh, hang on. Are you looking at the Mark Haven one? No, Masonic Magician. Look inside. It's just a preview at Amazon. Okay. Yeah, let me have a...

There you say Cagliostro's Egyptian Freemasonry, and it looks to me as it's just one ritual, or is there several? Is it an initiation ritual? What kind of ritual is it? It's actually the three. There is three degrees to it. Wow. He also did something which he called the quarantines ritual,

um which we can get onto a bit later actually like i said it's so convoluted um yeah yeah i mean just looking at it is is incredible i mean i wrote when did this come out um i wrote it started writing in 2006 came out in 2009 i believe so it's great that people are still really interested in him and i've done a lot more research since i read the book

The Mark Haven book, I was intrigued by that because of when I was doing research, it cropped up a lot. And I saw a copy of it in the library at Freemasons Hall in London. And I was, you know, sort of basically researching from that. So it kind of stayed in my head. And then I got hold of an actual first edition copy in French. And I asked

Paul Ferguson, who he's an incredible translator. Um, and he is so knowledgeable about esoteric things as well. And he, he did the most amazing translation of it. And then we combined it with, um,

about Mark Haven as well. And it's another really good resource for other people. I mean, the thing is when I write a book, people often ask me, you know, why do you write? And it's because I love the research, but I also really like sharing information, sharing fascinating stories with people. You know, it's not as though it's all about –

you as an author it's all about the stories that you tell and caliastro's story is oh he's the gift that keep on giving isn't it i mean his life his personality we're going to get into it now but okay but just one more indulge me one more more thing i have here what's an alleged

description of the right. I'm going to, I'm going to simultaneously, it's in Norwegian, but I'm going to read through it. It's not a whole right, just a short description. Yeah. And then you confirm if this is the same as what you got. And according to this source in London, Cagliostro found a manuscript that described a series of Egyptian rights, which he used. And so when the candidates came, uh,

They had to come to in the morning. They were in white robes with the Rosen Kranzes around their head. They were taken over a wind bridge and through a dim room to a hall where Kogliostro was sitting on a shining illuminated altar, where two boys were swinging candles

incense holders of gold. The candidates, male and female, were then separated and went through different trials. They were told that human life is based on illusions and therefore lies is the only thing that will be believed. And the crux, the senate of the initiation was when a huge golden ball appeared

was not elevated, but the opposite, was taken down through the roof. It opened up and then Kogliostro himself came out with a living snake in his hand and a golden star on his head. And then he encouraged the candidate to throw off their clothes and to reveal their beauty for the heavenly spirit.

And then he hold an instruction speech on the secrets of magic, after which he went into the golden ball again and went up through the roof. Now, is this anything to do with what you found? Okay, yeah, I've read a version of that one. Basically...

I think that's a kind of hybrid of all sorts of different things that surround him. I think that was supposedly how he appeared in the female lodge, hence the flinging off of clothes and things. I have a feeling that that particular version of events was perhaps put together by one of his... Detractors, yeah. Yeah, exactly, because...

well, I think there's probably more than a little bit of artistic license. Funnily enough, though, one of the first things, and I think that was when I spoke to Bob Cooper when we were first starting into this, is that I had read that Calliope had descended from the ceiling on, well, on a globe. Hmm.

butt naked and God, I mean, what an image. And from all accounts, he was not a slender chap, you know. He was not exactly a model, I know. No, I think he was probably quite portly. I mean, it's absolutely hilarious and I must admit, if I'd have been there, there's no way I'd have kept a straight face. Yeah.

And any guy coming down stark naked on a Golden Globe and told me to get my kit off, I think I would have been out of there. Right, right. Hashtag me too. But the snake is interesting. That's very Egyptian. That sounds like ISIS cult or something. I think that probably alludes to the fact that the seal that he used had a snake on it.

with an apple in its mouth and an arrow going through it. I think it sounds like a case of Chinese whispers, you know, almost like those games where you...

You draw a head and then you pass it around. Someone draws a body and someone draws the legs. And then you get this weird hybrid. I don't think that is... Well, that's definitely not the ritual that we have. No, okay, okay. Good to know, good to know. Okay. We'll go more into that. But let's start now with the beginning. Cogliostro, it wasn't even his real name. So I suggest you...

start with where you think this story should start the Cagliostro story and what his real name was right well let me just read you something that Roberto Gervaso wrote in his book Cagliostro and I think he wrote it in 1974 I've got a copy here

And I have always had a real dilemma with Calliostro. He is a paradox. He's a complete enigma. Nobody can actually quite make their mind up what he is, what he was and what he wanted to be. And I found this wonderful quote and he said, um,

Whether my interpretation of Kaliosa is correct, I do not know. It's certainly impartial. Count Alessandro has been depicted by his enemies as a forger, a swindler and a pimp, and by his friends as an initiate, a martyr and a saint. In fact, he was a mixture of simplicity and imposture, genius and charlatanry, I can't pronounce it, mysticism and debauchery.

And he says, only Cagliostro, somebody once wrote, knew who Cagliostro really was. I disagree. If he had known, he would not have done what he did, nor would he have become what he became. But his fascination arises from his enigmatic nature. So you've basically got a guy who was born in Palermo in 1743, I think everyone's decided upon. And he was born Giuseppe Palermo.

or Joseph Balsamo. Yeah, can I just add, I read somewhere that it was Goethe who first suggested that Balsamo was Cagliostro. Is that correct? Yeah, basically...

He was a fan of Calliostro for a while, but when everything kind of kicked off with Calliostro doing things that kind of really went against the grain, he felt that he was kind of dragging Freemasonry in particular into disrepute. And he became very suspicious of Calliostro. He, I think he...

I think he went to Palermo or he had somebody go there to kind of find out more about him. Okay, so we don't know if Goethe actually met Cagliostro. I'm assuming that he did because they were in the same...

kind of in the same circles, I think. I think Kalyosho, well, I said his contemporaries and those that he mixed with are like an A to Z of, you know, sort of occultists and alchemists. Yeah, no, Goethe was not best pleased with him in the end. And obviously he did some rather cruel parodies in his writings. And so...

While we're at name dropping, do we know if Swedenborg ever met Cagliostro? There's certainly a connection because Cagliostro was involved with the Swedenborgian disciples in various places around Europe and also in London.

But Swedenborg, he died in... Yeah, he died in 1773. Yeah. And the question is, at this point, Carl Jorst was a young man. Had he already ascended in the circles at this point? Yeah. He started young. He was going around Europe, kind of on almost like a grand tour. He went to...

Mittau, Strasbourg, London, back to France. You know, we got around and sometimes probably not for the fact that you just wanted to be an artist.

you know, sort of casual tourists, but the fact that he pretty much got run out of a lot of places, which is here we again have this sort of like paradox that he was wonderful. He was amazing, you know, magician. He was a friend of humanity, an altruistic benefactor and then hot on his heels, you

Suddenly he does something and then he's a charlatan. He's a fake, a crook, a pimp. So I don't know if we'll ever get to the bottom of who or what he was because he just changed it so often. I mean, he changed his name as much as most people change their underpants. I mean, he literally, he dumped his birth name quite early.

And he became, he used the name Pellegrini. Oh, God, I can't remember the name of the other one. And then he decided to choose Cagliostro. And, of course, that was, I think it was his maternal grandmother's name. And so, of course, then that links him back to the heritage that he kind of denied. I don't think he actually really knew what he was himself. And he used this kind of romantic tone.

a bit like Christian Rosenkreuz. Yeah. He'd been brought up by somebody, you know, fabulously wealthy by the Sharif family.

And he made it sound, you know, incredibly romantic that he'd been taught by a man called Alphotis who had taken him to Egypt. And then he rocked up in Malta and met Pinto there.

And I think along the way, he just really kind of imagined himself and he began to believe his own hype, which, you know, a lot of guys who...

Yeah, no wonder Alistair Crowley thought of himself as a reincarnation of Cagliostro. Oh, no. Actually, I mean, seriously, that's not exactly a great person to be popping into, if you see what I mean. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

But I can see Crowley's fascination for him because of this low-key, two-faced kind of Janus face. But I believe, I'll not go rant about it now, but I believe all the slander can more or less be dismissed. He said himself that he had met...

that he had been initiated by the Count Saint Germain and I mean Saint Germain that's a show in itself I mean that's a can of worms going into his story right and in a way I look at Cagliostro like you say he's half mythical Saint Germain is more than half mythical but

But is there any indications that they may have met or was that just his claim? Yeah, no, there's actually some evidence or well, as evidential as you're going to get with those two that

Saint Germain initiated both Calliostra and his wife. And I think, again, that's where the kind of like 2 a.m. in the morning thing came from. Right, right. I remember, I can't, God, I've got so much information in my head that I'm trying to work out. I think I do actually mention it in the Masonic Magician about the fact that Saint Germain, actually, I found it here. Let me just have a quick look.

Yeah, I mean, I can't actually find the quote, but it definitely was a thing that he had been either initiated or made acquaintance with Saint-Germain. I mean, obviously, we don't really know who Saint-Germain was. But it also brings me to something I was going to talk about, which I'll just quickly pop in here now, is that there's a text called The Most Holy Trinosophia.

And that is attributed to Saint-Germain. That's right. I'm pretty damn sure it was actually written by Cagliostro. Wow. And I know there are a few people that agree with me, you know, from their own perception of it. Right. Because... Hang on, that's an alchemical work, isn't it? Yeah. I briefly read it long ago.

Yeah, and his Egyptian rite is alchemical. It's a kind of mixture of everything, really, a mixture of Rosh Hashanah, Christianity, and I have to tell you, there's nothing Egyptian in there. And that is my big kind of bombshell that I've dropped on a few people, is that I have been...

studying occultism and, well, probably since I was a teenager, and we're now talking like that's about 40 years of study. I've also been studying Egypt for a long time and I've been visiting it for 20 years. So I'm no expert on either thing, but what I do know, I do tend to think that I'm reasonably educated

qualified to actually sort of talk about it. It's really hard with the whole kind of Egyptian link that everybody wants because Egypt is fabulous. Yeah, yeah, yeah. For context, we might add that at that time, Egypt was already a big romantic thing. I think this was after Napoleon had invaded it, wasn't it?

No, no, it's before. And actually, yeah, this is something that kind of, when I did my, I did a paper for a Masonic conference in Greece in 2017. And it was actually, I'm playing devil's advocate. I, I bust a lot of Calliostro stuff because I kind of like doing it both sides. Cause in a way,

I was smitten by him to start with. I was sucked into his whole kind of wow, romantic sort of fabulous alchemical bling. And it's a bit like being gaslighted. I think the guy was actually a narcissist. He's, well, I mean, I think you'd have to be to actually think that you're God, which is pretty much where he got to. But

I kind of love him and hate him. Yeah. I know that sounds really weird. But I assume that all the slander about him came from, for example, the Inquisition and other sources like that. But are you saying that... No, not for a long shot. Oh, okay. No, because when he went to Mittau, he met up with...

Oh, I can't remember the name. Sorry, I'll have to... This is so long since I've done a talk about him that I'm kind of... What was her name? Eliza somebody or other. Von Reck, I think her name was. And she loved him to start with. She absolutely adored him and so did her family and he started up a lodge there. And then...

As was often the case with Cagliostro, things went pear-shaped. Yeah, it was Eliza von der Eck, and she actually then wrote an account of her time spent with him, and it was not flattering. He seemed to trail this kind of… But wait a minute, did she do this after the Inquisition got to him?

No. Oh, okay. I don't think so. He was causing problems before then. I mean, do you know about the diamond necklace affair? In which I'm assuming he's innocent. And I was going to ask you to account in detail for that. But I think we're going a little fast. Yeah, we are. We are. Sorry. Let's rewind. Let's start with the Egyptian right. He himself claimed, didn't he claim he found it in London? Yes.

Yeah, there's some that supposedly picked up in a market or book market from somebody called George Cofton or Coston. I've looked into this a fair bit, trying to work out who this guy was. I've got a feeling he was actually called George Costard. He was...

He wrote about astrology and all sorts of stuff. But at that point, something that a lot of people don't know is that he was actually mixing with quite a few people who were very much into alchemy, but also Kabbalah. He...

He lived very close to Rabbi Jacob Falk, who was also known as the Baal Shem of London. And Falk was, he was born around, I think it was 1708. And I've got a bit here and it says that after narrowly escaping being burnt at the stake by the authorities in Westphalia, he'd been charged with sorcery. He sought exile in London.

And he established an alchemy laboratory. His neighbor in Wellclose Square was Emanuel Swedenborg. Wow. Whose teachings Falk heavily influenced and in turn influenced Cagliostro and his contemporaries. It's strange because the problem was you've got politics coming into this as well, because Falk and Cagliostro and many of the different people that they were hanging around with,

people like Louis Philippe, Duke of Orléans, who was the cousin of Louis XVI, they were all sort of libertines, they were all pro-revolutionaries and

They were all under the eye of the establishment. So we've got this really heady blend of politics, religion, magic, Freemasonry, and... What else is new? This is history, right? Yeah, it's like a perfect powder keg, you know. I mean, it was just ready to go off. You got all the Jacobite stuff going on, hadn't you, as well? Yeah, I basically...

What I found about the pamphlet that he was meant to have found, because I've got my paper in front of me, and it allegedly bore the signature of George Cofton or Coston, depending on how you read the script of that time. But I wonder if it is. And yeah, Reverend George Costard, he was a clergyman.

And he was a fellow of Wadham College and he'd written extensively about astronomy and obviously he was au fait with biblical references as well. So I think what we're looking at is, well, I mean, from time immemorial, everybody has borrowed bits and pieces of stuff from all over the place. And obviously Egypt was a major centre, the city of Alexandria. Yeah.

Everybody met there. It was a melting pot of... Yeah, and the hype from the Renaissance was still an echo at Cogliostro's time. Yeah, yeah, absolutely. And I think so much filtered down and got borrowed, hybridized, bastardized by various different groups and people.

cults, whatever. And they all kind of like took these little pieces of stuff. And you can see it in so many different spiritual groups and the rituals. I mean, things like, you know, the golden dawn and stuff like that. Yeah.

There's so many different pieces of history, mystery, you know, and various traditions all kind of like bundled in. So if Calliostro did pick up the ritual in a Soho book market, then I...

I doubt that story. Again, I think that's another thing that sounds really kind of romantic and mysterious, you know, just happened to find this. And yet he just happened to be really good mates with a load of cabal. Yeah, yeah, yeah, I get that. But he could have done what the majority does and claim that,

oh no, it was like this great master, invisible master manifesting and handing it over or I was initiated in the pyramid when I visited Egypt. It's a pretty trivial story. I bought it from a merchant in London. That doesn't sound very prompt up

which kind of tells me it may be real. Now, it doesn't mean that these rituals, of course, go back to Egypt or anything, but that part of the story could be genuine as I perceive it. A comment? Actually, yeah, no, you're probably right. Thinking about it now, it's actually so pedestrian that it could well be. Exactly.

Yeah, okay. Yeah, we'll go with that one. But then it makes it much more interesting who this chap was that you called him. What was it? Well, I think it was George Costard. Costard, right. Not Coston. No, but he was Italian. I mean, you can't expect him to write the name exactly. No.

Does that name figure in the book you have? It actually figures, yeah. I think, yeah, we did mention that. No, I mean in the manuscript, in the little ritual book, the French one. Yeah, I mean, there's no mention of that within the actual ritual. But, I mean, we did cover it in the various books. And there is the signature of...

oh no sorry Koston or Koston reproduced in various books including you know Havens and

So, yeah, we don't really know a lot of stuff to do with him. But it is interesting that he was linked heavily with Rabbi Falk and the Swedenborgians. So you have, he's got this incredible mix of different things going on. I think the problem we have, and one of the biggest things that you can actually bring up against him

anything to do with Egypt, is that Champollion had not deciphered the Rosetta Stone at that point. People did not understand hieroglyphs, even probably by the end of the Greek and Roman invasion of Egypt, that they'd actually lost the ability to read hieroglyphs.

or understand the hieroglyphs by that point. I find it very hard to believe that people were getting it right at that point. I think Kaliastra had actually written a little bit of text as supposedly his hieroglyphs or Egyptian hieroglyphs. It's just gobbledygook. It's rubbish. He's literally just kind of made something up. Channeling, as we call it today. Well, it came from...

It came from a little pamphlet called The Confessions of the Count de Cagliostro, written in 1787. And this was, he did this, you know, sort of around about the time when he was being done for the Diamond Necklace Affair and he'd been put in the Bastille. And he drew these little pictures. And, I mean, you look at them and they're absolutely laughable because, I mean...

It means absolutely nothing. But then if people didn't understand hieroglyphs, they would actually just draw strange little pictures and say, oh, you know, these are Egyptian. I mean, like I said, Champollion didn't decipher the Rosetta Stone until 18, I think it was 1822, around about that time.

1820s anyway so it was way beyond when Cagliostro was around so yeah but I heard a heretic version that Cagliostro was actually initiated by

Because you mentioned briefly that he went to Malta. And at that point, that was ruled by the Maltese order, the Jainites, which connect to the Templars. And so allegedly there was an initiation going on there. And that's really the source of the so-called Egyptian. Comment to that? Yes.

Yeah, he mixed with General Pinto and they certainly got involved in Masonic rituals and all sorts. I'm still not convinced that it would have been true Egyptian stuff. I mean, I'm a purist, I'm afraid. Anything...

you know, sort of the new kingdom. And I'm not overly keen on, you know, the whole kind of Ptolemaic Greco-Roman stuff. Again, I'm not entirely convinced they actually knew what it was that they were putting on the temple walls in some ways, because the Egyptian priests from all accounts were incredibly, incredibly

reticent about sharing any of their knowledge with outsiders. And the last hieroglyph was carved at Philae.

But we do know some Greeks got access, right? A couple of handful of Greeks. And there are traditions hailing from them. So indirectly. But I'm not so concerned with how Egyptian it really was compared to the ancient. I'm more concerned with the fact that something was transmitted and something happened.

Like a micro perspective in a way. So you acknowledge that he did train in Malta for esoteric purposes? Yeah, definitely. He was with Pinto, who was a grandmaster of the Knights of Balta, I think, wasn't it?

So yes, no, he spent a lot of time there. So at that point there was currents within the Order of Malta who was actually esoteric because they don't appear very spiritual today. But back then they were? Yeah. Oh, I think most definitely. I think there was just so much going on at that time. And that was obviously why the inquisition were getting incredibly bad.

concerned about anything to do with Freemasonry regardless of where it was in the world and yeah I mean I'm just trying to find Pinto because he was a very important part of Kelly Astro's life and I think he you know really took him under his wing and

So the magic, Kabbalah and alchemy, he may have picked up from there as the first source. Oh yeah, yeah, definitely. I'm not disputing that he had knowledge. Yeah, I've got the account here. I mean, in his account of his early life and this teacher that he had, he did say that he'd been initiated in Egypt and

Again, there's no, absolutely no proof. I mean, obviously, how are we going to know? Yeah, yeah. It says here that they travelled from Egypt, went to Asia and Africa, and alighted on the island of Malta. And, yeah, Pinto Grandmaster of the Knights of Malta, and admitted to his palace where they stayed for some time. At that point, his name apparently was Akarat. Egyptian sounding. Yeah.

well it sounds a bit more like Arabic if you ask me but oh I suppose actually if you took the vowels out yeah yeah

And he practiced bits of, you know, the arts and sciences, and his master, Alphotos at the time, received the insignia of the Order. And it does seem that, yeah, Pinto took him under his wing. Why on earth would he do that? How did he get access if he was just this random poor guy? I don't know. It's strange. I mean, he says...

in his memoirs that Grand Master Pinto gave me as well as my tutor lodgings in his palace and I recall that the apartment I occupied was near his laboratory.

The first thing Grand Master did was to invite the Chevalier d'Aquino of the illustrious House of the Princess of Caramania to be kind enough to accompany me everywhere. I assumed then for the first time with the European dress the name of Count de Cagliostro and was not a little surprised to see Althaus invested with the habit of an ecclesiastic and decorated with the cross of Malta. So he pretended to be a count? Yeah.

That could give him admission. Yeah. Actually, a lot of people did in those days. They assumed titles, even though they didn't have one. Probably what they do is that they trace it back through their family and find somebody that had a little bit of aristocracy in them and take that, which...

It was quite common during the... It makes complete sense because after the bourgeois revolution, the nobility didn't any longer have complete power. And so the bourgeois had complexes and wanted to be revered as the old nobility. And so many bourgeois people either married into nobility or like you say, they...

you know, they trumped up some dubious nobility. Yeah, yeah. I mean, you know, it makes it sound far more exciting, doesn't it, to me? And, of course, you know, something that we often overlook is his wife, who...

Basically, traveled around with him. Okay, what's the story there? He married Lorenza Serafina Feliciani. Feliciani, yeah. Feliciani. Love that name. He met her in Rome because, obviously, he was born in Palermo. He got into trouble there. So, he went off to Rome and met Lorenza, or Serafina. She was 15. Hmm.

very, very pretty apparently, you know, very sort of delicate, delightful young lady and he was very attracted to her and they got married. They then went, mainly because they'd run out of money, I think it was a common case with the poor old Caliostrate, they just constantly got lots of money and then subsequently lost it very quickly and they went on a pilgrimage on the, what we now call, you know, the road to San Diego and

The Camino. And that was there that they were reputed to have met with Casanova.

I was going to ask you about that. So they did meet Casanova even. Wow. Yeah. I mean, again, there's so many different stories around it. Was she wooed by Casanova? Did Callister encourage her to be wooed by Casanova so that they could get money and this, that and the other? Whatever the circumstance, I'm sure of one thing. He did get her into bed. Oh, yeah, I bet.

And unfortunately, it seems that Kelly Astro used her feminine charms to get a lot of patronage. That's where the pimp thing comes from. I see. I see. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, people say, oh, you know, she wouldn't have put up with him if he did all these terrible things. Well, I'm sorry, but...

People do put up with things. Yeah, yeah. We now know why people put up with things. It's because they get kind of, you know, pretty much sucked into that person's life, their glamour, their lies, you know. Yeah, plus another thing. No, all this is right, but also remember very few people believe that their own actions are actually evil or negative. Oh, absolutely.

You know, most people rationalize it, right? Yeah, it's a classic bias. So, no, I mean, yeah, just human nature. But in the end, it was her that betrayed him. Well, not betrayed him. I mean, I think she just had enough. And she just couldn't stand it anymore. And then, of course, it all went pear-shaped for her as well because she ended up

Not so much in... Well, she was in prison technically, I guess. Kind of under house arrest in a convent for the rest of her life. Oh, wow. Yeah. Anyway... So when did they marry? I'm just trying to think when they got married. When she was 15, you said. When she was 15... Hang on, I've got the marriage certificate in the Haven book somewhere. Oh, okay. Which is terrible because everyone says, oh, no, we didn't know...

Oh, a certificate of marriage. They married on the 20th of April 1768, according to this. 1768. So by this time, he... So he was 25. He was 25. So she was joining him in most of his adventures then? Oh, yeah. Yeah.

Yeah, definitely. But not to Malta, well, because that's male only, right?

Oh, hang on. No, that must have been after Malta. I think he was probably very good at making friends with prominent people and all it would take would be a letter of introduction or a letter vouching for the person's supposed character, even if they'd only known them for a month or so. But I think he was probably very charming, incredibly intelligent.

and could probably talk his way around anybody to get a favour. And wherever he wanted to go next, he would probably get, you know, a letter of introduction. And certainly when he got involved in Freemasonry, then, of course, he had his Masonic brothers who would then offer him invitations to go places or would vouch for him. So it was kind of a good ride for him in that respect. Yeah.

So we know that he was initiated into masonry. Yeah. I read somewhere under the name Joseph Cagliostro. Yeah. Do we know which lodge, which order? Yeah, it was Esperance Lodge 289. Well, that was the one in London that he was meant to have been initiated in. There are, I mean, he also had been to the Hague and it's

I can't remember exactly when it was, but Reinhard Machner, he's an author and researcher. He found the certificate of Cagliostro's Masonry in The Hague. But we do know that he was initiated and it would have been, yeah, 1777. And Lorenza was with him as well. I think she was actually...

She was actually initiated as well. There's a really good account of it. Yeah, yeah. You know, one thing we have to give him, and that is that he made, I mean, after him, it became a thing that women should also be initiated. Oh, yeah. Whereas it was much more male biased before that.

Yeah, Lodge of Adoption. I mean, there had been some of that in France anyway, because, I mean, obviously, French Masonry has always been quite liberal in that respect. But, of course, he made it very glamorous for the aristocrats and the nobles there.

and sisters and mothers. And of course, having Serafina as this kind of almost like virginal beauty who would preside over the women's lodges was

you know it was not something for them to do it made them feel special and for those that obviously had a deeper interest then there were there was a you know the spiritual aspect to it as well so yeah yeah they he did actually he was a trailblazer the guy i mean you've got to give him that that he he literally started so many things often didn't finish them um but um

Or if he did, he quickly did a runner. And I think he was made a scapegoat by the Inquisition big time. You know, I mean, they'd been after him for a long time. Yeah, he was a nuisance. Yeah, we'll get to that. But I read that in 1784, he actually founded a co-masonic lodge for both women and men. That's before Le Droit Humain. Yeah, because he set up the...

Lodge in Lyon around about that time. I'm not sure whether... I mean, they weren't... The women and the men were kept aside in the rituals. I don't think they actually ever did any ritual together. I think maybe the ladies were brought in at the end, or the men could be brought in at the end of the ladies' ritual. And...

You know, some people argue that there was sex magic going on and that kind of stuff, which, I mean, again, human nature, it's going to happen, isn't it? Or whether you want to call it sex magic or people just being, you know... Libertines. Yeah, absolutely. Again, you've got that sort of very exciting blend of all sorts of things that are liable to get people excited or get people very angry. Mm-hmm.

Yeah, and if you regard the context of his zeitgeist of the times, I can kind of get why he was rebelling. I mean, in a way, he exploited the stupidity of the day, the morality, the norms, and took advantage of it. If he was from a poor background, I don't blame him. I mean, he's born into this...

And on the other hand, he also rebelled against it in many ways, which of course made him a target for the Inquisition. And I'm amazed, actually, that the Inquisition... I mean, he must have been one of the last victims of the Inquisition, because at this point one would...

Didn't they lose their grip? Maybe not in Italy, but at least in Europe. Yeah, I think so. I think it got to the point where people were fed up with, or, you know, governments were fed up with them interfering in everything. I mean, obviously, the Inquisition still kind of exists. Yeah.

in a very sort of gentle, unobtrusive way. But, you know, I think there is actually still an office. But the power to imprison and kill people for religious heresy, even at his time, isn't that pretty late? Yeah, I mean, he was arrested in 1789, right?

I mean, from all accounts, I mean, they use the most dreadful torture. So it's hardly any surprise that both of them

kind of you know admitted all sorts um and then of course that all got twisted and turned i mean there's obviously truth in it somewhere but it wasn't in the interest of the inquisition to make them look good obviously but i mean at that point i think i can't remember i read a an account i effectively they i think seraphina was pretty much waterboarded wow yeah and they used to pour not only water down their throats they used to funnel

and they would use things like urine and liquid feces and things. It was absolutely disgusting. I'm ever amazed and appalled by the sheer ingenuity of humans to come up with the most disgusting ways of torturing. You've only got to look at the accounts from...

the second world war with with the concentration camps to see that people are capable of the most evil you know if you can use that word i mean again it sort of has such connotations but what else can you describe that and to punish people for what quite not trivial things i suppose so the people that were wanting to punish them but in the respect of how we are nowadays i

We would never think, oh, well, you know, this guy's a Freemason, so therefore we really need to kind of torture him and put him in prison for years and in a cellar, in a pit, and leave him to rot. But that was perfectly reasonable at that point. And obviously they viewed him as a heretic, which was the worst thing that he could have ever done.

I mean, if he had just held on a little bit more, I think maybe he would have been saved by the French Revolution. Yeah, yeah. I think the problem was there was so much against him in France. And then, of course, when he got to England, and this was, you know, sort of in the 1780s, he had some very good friends in England. I mean, he had Philip de Lutherberg, the artist...

and his wife and Blake and all sorts of, you know... Wait a minute. Did you say Blake? Yeah. Which Blake? William Blake. Really? Wow.

Because they were all, again, you know, sort of very sort of bohemian characters. Yeah. Speaking of revolution, I even read that he met Benjamin Franklin. Is that correct? Yeah, probably. Most likely, because Franklin was very much involved in the lodges in Paris.

And, you know, they all mixed in the same circle. So there was a big Masonic conference that Caligula was meant to go to, and then he decided not to. But the movers and shakers... Yeah, and just for context, so people know, that although today the big Freemasonic orders are counted as part of the establishment, back in that day,

They were very much revolutionary, and many, many Freemasons were involved in French Revolution, American Revolution, and all sorts of work for reformation, where they wanted to dethrone the hegemony of the Catholic Church, and, you know, have this enlightenment, romantic enlightenment, where everybody could...

and believe whatever they wanted. And another sympathetic trait with Cagliostro, because a pure conman, a real, just, I mean, everybody is shaded, of course. Nobody is black or white. But a pure conman wouldn't even bother to learn things. He wouldn't bother to learn how to do alchemy. He would certainly not bother to rewrite a book.

So if the most holy Trinosophy is actually a manuscript authored by Cagliostro, at least we know he was genuine enough to have the passion enough. You as an author can probably sympathize with this. Yeah. That he wanted to actually, that he took it serious at some level. That's all I'm saying. Yeah, this is the bit that, again, it always bumps up against

my own kind of views about him I really I cannot make up my mind about him at all he was like I said he was incredibly intelligent and yes he knew so much about the kind of theurgy and the alchemical kabbalistic side of things and there's no way that you can fake that he obviously had a genuine passion and he believed his own hype I think

That was where it kind of went wrong. I think he became so impressed and blown away by the adulation that he did get and the fact that he was mixing with such important people. I mean, who wouldn't get a bit of a blast over some of that kind of stuff? You know, he's hanging around. Starstruck. Yeah, he was with royalty. He was hanging out with all the kind of celebs of the day.

And of course, they were all great thinkers as well. So they were all sharing this amazing knowledge and being able to have deep philosophical discussions, which, as you said, if he was just a basic con man, he wouldn't have been able to keep up with it for a stop. But he became bigger than his own self in some respects and

I think it just took him over. Yeah, he got high on himself. And I always look at victims of plots with automatic sympathy because they never can write their own story, like the Gnostics, right? Yeah. So let's get to the so-called Diamond Necklace Affair. What can you tell us about that? Okay. Yeah, well, that was, again, a really bad judgment on his part to get involved. He was...

One of his patrons was the Cardinal de Rohan, who, of course, was intimately linked with the royal family at the time, you know, Marie Antoinette, obviously. And then you've got this disenfranchised kind of noble had been demoted. And that was, oh God,

oh God, what was her name? Delamotte, Madame Delamotte. And I mean, the story goes basically is that they said that Marie Antoinette had ordered this fabulous necklace, which I think it was worth something, you know, millions, the equivalent of millions of pounds or millions of

No wonder the revolution came shortly after. But okay, go on. Well, I mean, it's quite a hideous looking thing. But, you know, obviously, it was just literally dripping in diamonds. So these poor jewelers made this thing. And supposedly Madame de Remont and Cagliostro were in it together.

that they would say that they were going to deliver the necklace and everything. And Cardinal Rohan got pulled into it as well. And it just was just a complete mess. Marie Antoinette didn't know anything about it, apparently. And so she was dragged into all of this. Yeah, and it was horrendous. So they all got arrested, basically, because it was completely fraudulent, obviously.

and sent for the Bastille. And effectively, I mean... Jesus, just so people know, the Bastille, that's like the Tower of London. Yeah, yeah. It's not where you want to be held. Okay, go on. No, no. So, yeah, I mean, they were interviewed. They were probably tortured a bit, you know. Seraphina was kind of dragged into it too. And then, of course, he had to...

he came out with this sort of, you know, confession. And this is where he came out with all the stuff about his past. And he kind of changed his story a little bit here and there. And... Didn't he deny that he was Giuseppe Balsamo? Yeah. Yeah. But...

How funny it would be if it's two different people who's merged into Cagliostro. I know, I've seen that one before. It's kind of like parallel universe where two people are sort of like bumbling along together. Yeah.

And that could explain the dichotomy between the good and the bad, Gagliostro. Yeah. Actually, no wonder he's in popular culture because he's just the perfect...

Anti-hero is not a word we use today. Yeah. Oh, gosh, yeah. Definitely. I so want to... I've wanted this for years. I really want to make a film about his life. I mean, I don't know if you've seen it. There's the Diamond Necklace Affair. Yeah.

I haven't seen it, but I discovered it today when I researched a little. And I want to see it. That's Christopher Walken, I think. Oh, I mean, wow. Christopher Walken, this Callaghan show. Not exactly the best sort of casting, but I mean, Christopher Walken, come on. The guy is amazing. But it's a bit cheesy. If you can sit through it.

Sure, but it's, I mean, it's Hollywood. It's Hollywood. Come on. It's quite fun. But, yeah, he just, I don't know, he was kind of like a constant car crash waiting to happen, bless him. You know, everywhere he went, he smoothed up and had to run away again. You know, Catherine the Great had it in for him as well. Wow. She basically ran him out of Russia. Right. It's just...

Oh, I don't know. This is a really weird experience for me because, like I said, I wrote the book 2006. It took me a year or so to do so. So we're talking nearly 15 years ago and you've kind of rekindled this sort of weird complex now. I'm like, what?

Oh, I thought your book was from 2017. No. Is it an old book? Ah, the Haven one. Oh, right. But they did actually republish my publisher Watkins. It came out in paperback back in 2017. It was in hardback. I see. And

different beautiful covers. I was really happy with the covers. There was a black one, a white one and a red one so very alchemical. But no, the Mark Haven translation is more recent but I

I don't know. Everybody seems to have discovered Kaliostra again at the moment. And it's really nice to be able to kind of go back and revisit it and look at it from lots of different angles because I like winding people up a little bit as well because there's people that are absolutely enamored by them. Yeah, yeah. Of course. Yeah, yeah, of course. And I come along and go, ah, well, actually this that I've found out since. And they're like, no. No.

A little bit of iconoclasting is just healthy. You can see the bubble burst. But to wrap up the diamond affair, you believe he was innocent of that, right? I've no idea. Okay. Again, it's this kind of thing of... It sounds like the kind of thing that he would do if he thought he could get some serious money. Yeah, I mean, get some money from Marie Antoinette. I mean, that's just...

That's just a praiseworthy venture. But there was no evidence and he was acquitted, wasn't he? He was acquitted, but he was severely tarnished by that point. And he lived, I went to where his old house was in Paris. Wow.

and apparently he used to hold the most amazing sort of like seances there where famous dead people would turn up you know for dinner it just again sounds fabulous in the kind of okay kind of way and he was pretty much hounded out of Paris and it's really sad because he had to leave all his stuff behind and I've been trying to trace what happened to it and there's

Interesting bits and bobs as to who took what and things have turned up at auction that were supposedly his items.

And it's quite sad that he was left scattered across Europe in some ways. And he ended up in this sort of horrible little hellhole to end it. Yeah. Can we, can we take that story to the final downfall? I mean, after the affair with the Dharma necklace, I bet the word had spread. I mean, they didn't have internet, but,

The word must have spread sufficiently that enough people knew that he was dubious and could be, you know, it would embolden them to go against him, right? So I'm thinking the Inquisition could strike after that because of that. Yeah, he went to London again and he'd got this continual battle going on with the editor of the French English newspaper, right?

and its name was Sebano de Miranda. And he was a nasty piece of work. He was kind of like your classic journo, really, you know, really vicious pit bull of a journalist. And he'd been watching Kaliostra for some time and he'd been baiting him with articles for some time. And, of course, once he heard that he was back,

It was grist for the mill. And I think by that time, Calliope, he was running out of steam. He was getting sick of running pretty much. And then he fell out with people like Philip de Luthberg. So they went back to Rome. I mean, why would you go back to Rome? Yeah, that's going into the lions, Dan. Well, I know Serafina desperately wanted to go home.

She wanted to see her family and she'd had enough. And so Callioster agreed. And somewhere along the line, someone had convinced him that the Catholic Church would be interested in him doing some kind of demonstration or something.

And he even set up a lodge in Rome. And of course, at that time, it was, freemasonry was just completely not welcome. And he was daft enough to set up this lodge. And of course, I'm sure that by that point, the story goes is that Serafina was kind of basically feeding information to Serafina.

else who then joined I heard there were spies from the Inquisition yeah and there were spies two people and yeah I mean again I think he just every time somebody said to him oh you can do this oh you can you know we want you to do something we want you to set something up and be our you know almost like our guru that he would go oh

Oh, yes. So, of course, when they, the thought of enticing him back to Rome, and he fell for it, Klein and Sinker, and that was it, basically. They were arrested on, yeah, I think, what did I say it was? Yeah, it was 27th of December, which was the Feast of St. John. Hmm.

And then he was held in prison for how long? Well, I mean, he died in 1795. They were held in Rome originally. And then he was transferred to San Leo in Tuscany, which was a fortress literally perched on top of a massive cliff.

he was put in the deepest cell that they could manage because they were so terrified he was going to be either rescued or that he'd try and escape. And I read that he got a death sentence, but that was commuted to life imprisonment. Yeah, that was interesting because, again, the rumor goes that a mystical figure went to the Pope and asked for it to be commuted to life imprisonment.

To be honest, I think he'd probably been better off. Yeah. They burn all his regalia and everything in the square in Rome. So God knows what they had that they burned. But while he was in San Leo, supposedly he was writing a manuscript and that he would have visitors that would bring him. Hmm.

and they would take away stuff that he'd written. But according to the legend, when he died, they found a manuscript which was then handed over to one of his sympathisers.

And I was a bit kind of nonplussed when I looked at the Holy Trinosophia because they said, you know, basically they think that it was Saint Germain. But then I read some other stuff that Kali Yastra had been writing. And if you read the beginning of the Holy Trinosophia, it talks about the narrator basically talks about his life in prison. Hmm.

and how he was in such a terrible state and that he wanted to write this. Basically, it starts as, it is in the retreat of criminals in the dungeons of the Inquisition that your friend writes these lines which are to serve for your instruction. Wow. I mean, hello. Yeah, yeah. And another thing is that those who publish it would be much better off

given the outcome of his fate compared to Saint Germain, to use Saint Germain as a nom de plume because Saint Germain was still having this echo of being, you know, the ultimate invisible master before Blavatsky introduced the Theosophical Masters. Yeah. Then, I mean, who wouldn't want the manuscript of Saint Germain whereas the now broken Cagliostro probably wouldn't be such as much of a...

bestseller if you see what I mean so that makes sense too to ascribe it to Saint-Germain yeah it's interesting because you know literally just scrolling through it as you say that and he says some

Without reproach of the past, without fear of the future, I went on. The way became increasingly difficult, always confined within galleries composed of black stone blocks. You know, and he kind of talks about being, I know symbolically being imprisoned obviously has spiritual connotations, you know, from the symbolic connotations, but

It just really made me think, well, give him his due. How about we kind of do rehabilitate him in that respect? And that was one thing when I was writing the book, I really, really, really wanted his legend. Maybe not his character because we still don't know, but the legend is a good one. And he was still a human being and he was treated appallingly. And we've never found his body again.

I really wanted to actually see if we could get something together to go and, you know, approach the church and just say, look, isn't it time that we laid him to rest properly somewhere? And I did actually, I did approach the Vatican with regard to some, when I was wanting to do some research, um,

and sort of mentioned the idea of rehabilitation. I got a very curt reply, basically sort of saying, you can't have access to our library. And it was kind of like, please go away and don't even consider the thought that... No, they are clinging to that very avariciously. It was a long shot.

It was. I mean, naive. Maybe. Definitely. But it just seems sad that he was chucked into a hole somewhere. And we've got this absolute legend. So much so that he's in comic books and, you know, sort of... Orson Welles even made a movie in 49 called Black Magic. Oh, yeah.

Which is an adoption of Alexandre Dumas' novel, Joseph Balsamo, which is his name. Well, I mean, he made enough impression for people to still be writing about him now. So it does seem sad that he was literally just chucked in a pit and that we don't really know. I mean, we could work out from the directions that they give in the final draft.

A statement that they gave out when he died. But they're not going to be very keen on us doing a bit of a sort of like retro archaeology dig. See if we can find them. All of our files are free and will remain free. If you like to show, you can show support by donating $1 to help with expenses. Just use the paid link on our webpage. Thanks.

But you know what I think? I think that if he wasn't distracted by his longing for social recognition and whining and dining with the big shots, if he was a monk or held in a more benevolent prison in his life, it would probably be healthier for him. He would probably put his good qualities to use and produce a lot of great books and

and manuscripts and rituals and God knows what. So it looks like his downfall, in a way, was all the distractions and the temptations out there. Well, it's ironic. But if he didn't have them, I mean... Yeah, I think it's ironic that within all spiritual traditions, and also it's mentioned obviously within Freemasonry as well, is to subdue your passions and your animal's lower nature. And he preached that.

And unfortunately, the reverse was happening. He became so obsessed with his own story, with his own sense of grandeur. It was almost, again, the paradox. Do as I say, don't do as I do. Exactly. Well known. Yeah, it's a difficult one. And I think that

his legacy I don't know it's it is it's like a jigsaw puzzle that never quite ever gets solved you've always got a piece that doesn't fit you know and you're trying to stamp it in as hard as you can and it's not going to go because and it'll never make the full picture and maybe that's that's the sheer sort of beauty of it is that we're never going to know you know and I kind of like that it's um

Like I said, the fact that we've remembered him and still talking about him after 200-whatever years, he kind of did what he wanted to do and be absolutely famous. Yeah, I mean, it's despite much of his life story that we do this. And, of course, a lot of it has to do with the heritage, with the aftermath of his contribution. And, in fact, I think we should touch that a little too because

that, I mean, you're like a Masonic geek, right? So you know everything. But remember, the people... Well, you know what I mean. But the people listening don't necessarily. So maybe we should make them aware of all the different people coming after who kind of either real or pretended to be in the so-called chain of Cagliostro.

that it's been within French masonry, it's been like a thing to be able to track your lineage back to Cagliostro. Wow, okay. Yeah, in fact, I have the lineage in front of me. You want to hear it? Yeah, go on. Okay, so I don't know if Raimondo di Sangro is before or after Joseph Balsamo, because Raimondo di Sangro was from 7010 to 7071.

But then you have Cagliostro himself, 1743 to 1795. Then it's unclear, it's the Prince di Sangro or something.

It may be Vincenzo di Sangro they're referring to, 1743 to 1790. Then it's Balbiano de Palermo, 1761 to 1840. Now it becomes more clear. Then it's Charles de Parraway, 1787 to 1871. The next one in the line is

Louis Charles Edouard de La Paz, 1792 to 1867, who is very famous in Rosicrucian circles. Then the lineage goes to three different fellows, Eugene Arux, 1793 to 1859, Paul La Couria, 1806 to 1890, and Simon Brugal, also known as Ferman Boisin.

from 1835 to 1893. And now comes more well-known people, Adrian Pelladon, 1844 to 1885, Joseph A. May Pelladon, 1859 to 1918, and finally the lineage spread to three people, Emile Dantin, 1883 to 1969, and Gary de la Croce,

and Antoine de la Rochefoucauld. So there is this lineage out there that's claiming. But in addition, you mentioned briefly Egyptian masonry, Memphis Miesheim and stuff. Aren't they also big on coming from... Oh, yeah. The influence is said to have come from Kallios' Egyptian, right? Kallios' shows. Also, bizarrely enough,

Fandra of the Mormons was influenced by Cagliostro as well Joseph Smith wow yeah yeah wow I knew they were they had some Masonic influence but even Cagliostro wow yeah yeah all scoundrels seem to want to identify with him yeah again it's the lure of the glitz of it all and you know yeah yeah

He was deemed to be a spiritual master. And then if you look at some of the spiritual masters out there today, you can see that they hold similar kind of traits. The kind of, you know, sort of self-obsession and things like that. No, I'm not saying everyone is like that, but.

some of the ones that, you know, put themselves forwards as... Of course. I guess it goes for the territory. Yeah, yeah, it does. And everyone needs to do, I guess, what they need to do. Mm-hmm.

But, no, it's, oh, God. I'm sorry. I was kind of rambled all over the place, really. But I've realized, again, just how much I do actually like talking about the guy and just how much he still puzzles me. A question for you. Since you have read his writings, when you compare it with the little French ritual book,

If he authored that himself, wouldn't you recognize his style or his writing? It's hard because with the ritual, it's very formulaic and quite toneless in some respects. That's right. It's a description of... It's like a play, right? So it's going to be hard. Yeah, it's almost like a script. So...

But if you analyze it, I mean, let alone the Egyptian connection, do you get a taste of where it may come from, what it may be influenced of? If you, for example, compare it with the three blue, the core masonry, Masonic degrees, is it similar or is it very different? It's way more esoteric. And, you know, like I said, there's all sorts and there's obviously heavily Rosicrucianism.

Whatever that means. Yeah. Well, you know, from the point of view that it involves, it's got Christian overtones, it's got Kabbalistic overtones, various other undertones. It's also, you know, hermetic. It heavily mentions the planets. Wow. That indicates that the guy you think was the guy who gave it to him may be the guy who gave it to him.

Because you said he was big on astronomy. Yeah, actually, that does make sense, doesn't it? It's the number seven, the planetary colours, the planetary sigils, the planetary symbolism. It is all very heavy planetary in that respect. You know, you've got seven angels,

So it brings in all the aspects of, you know, you're kind of what you'd classically want in a,

a Christian esoteric ritual and the fact that he also held these laboratories as he called them which is where the the masons at each step of the way for each degree would have to effectively spend x amount of time studying alchemical and mystical spiritual pathways and practices and

And he also prescribed a quarantine, what he called a quarantine, which was meant to be a period of time, usually 40 days, whereby they were sequestered away somewhere. And it's actually quite horrible. Some of it, you know, it's literally sort of a lot of fasting and laxatives and

Actually, I can read a bit here. The second quarantine was how to rejuvenate and become physically perfect. Wow. Wow. Okay. So the aspirant has to retreat with a friend to the countryside on a full moon night in May. And locked inside a room, he has to suffer from a very exhausting diet for 40 days. Diet consists of scarce food based on light soups and tender cooling laxative vegetables.

Distilled water beverages or may rain. Each meal must start with a liquid, a drink, and at the end with solid snack as a biscuit or bread crust. On the 17th day of this retreat, after a small emission of blood,

He will start taking some white drops of secret composition, so obviously a spiguric tincture or something. He will have to take six of them in the morning and evening, another blood emission, and then he stays in bed till the end of the quarantine. And it goes on to basically say, you know, they become unconscious, has convulsions and sweats and evacuates continuously. Yeah.

Yeah. And then after having come to and changed the bed, he must be fed with a pound of fat free beef and cooling herbs.

Yeah, and then he's kind of given the second grain of original matter in a cup of broth. He will lose the skin and the teeth and the hair will fall out. Wow. On the following 35th day, if the patient recovers his strength, well, that's, yeah, okay. He will soak in a bath for one hour in neither cold nor hot water. And on the 36th day, he will have his third and last grain of the original matter, which will make him sleep quietly and peacefully. Hair grows back, teeth grow back, skin gets healed when he wakes up.

He's, well, perfect. Right. Yeah, okay, you have to get worse before you get better. I know that one. Yeah. But what are you reading from now? I was reading from my book. Yeah, but I mean, what is this script you're reading? Oh, that was actually… Is it Memories? No, that was his quarantine that had been…

God, where did that come from? Okay, it's something he wrote about healing. Yeah, that was basically what he set his fellow Freemasons to do. Oh, I see. The women didn't have to go through that because, of course, they were delicate flowers. Of course, of course. But this max of different impulses, yogic influence, it's max of...

Yes, by Geerix, as you say. And it really looks like a lot of different impulses. But of course, we know that he did work in laboratory. Yeah. So he did have some experience. Yeah. And he was meant to have been able to turn lead into gold, the whole caboodle. And that was where he got caught out a lot of times because he...

Of course, alchemists in those days quite often used to use sleight of hand and various other techniques. Which means they weren't really alchemists, so yeah. Okay, I'll say alchemists in inverted commas, you know. Quacks, I guess we could call them. Yeah. I mean, there's even some recipes that we found of his various pills and potions and they're actually quite bland. You know, they're just kind of

basic herbal drops for things like laxatives and face creams. Well, I mean, back in that day, that must have been a big deal. Now you can buy it everywhere, of course, but... But these were kind of rejuvenating, immortalizing face creams.

Because I trained as a neuromatherapist years and years and years ago. So, of course, I like to kind of put these things to the test. And it was just a basic nice kind of like cold cream really with them, which is as good as anything else. But absolutely fascinating. Yeah. And if he was an orphan like he claimed, it kind of goes into the psychological makeup of his character. Yeah.

Oh, reinvent yourself. If you haven't got any kind of like backstory, you can make up what you like, can't you? Unfortunately, he did have a backstory, which was then found out that... Yeah, but I mean, he would be... That also goes to explain his longing for recognition. Yeah. For being admired and loved because he was... In fact, if you look into Con Man...

Very often, I'm not saying all corn men are orphans, but I'm saying there are serious disturbances in their early childhood. Yeah. So that's... Well, his mother was still alive. Oh, really? Oh, yeah. His family were in Palermo. And I think it was when Goethe actually went there that he spoke to...

his mother or his aunt or something. No, they were very much... So he wasn't an orphan? No, he wasn't an orphan. He said he was an orphan because it sounded good. Oh, he did it. Okay. Apparently his aristocratic parents... I can't remember. Abandoned him. Right. I think they drowned or something terribly dramatic happened.

And that's when he supposedly ended up with this Sharif in a far-off land and met this wonderful teacher. Well, you get the drift, you know. Yeah, but do we know which country he for sure travelled to? Yeah, he went all over the place. He's got a map somewhere. He literally, he went to, I don't know, Mittau, where that is now, I think. He went to Strasbourg, he went to Russia, France.

The Hague, and obviously in Holland, and France, England. Yeah, this is later in life, but what about the exotic travels? For sure he went to Malta. Oh,

Well, he said that he went to Africa and he went to Asia and he went to Egypt. But there's absolutely no proof. And obviously, unfortunately, we haven't got any documents. That's impossible to prove. No passports, unfortunately. I don't think it's many people who went to Medina, Mecca and Cairo in the 70s.

in the 18th century where we have the documents today. So, I mean, that makes sense. I mean, people did travel to Egypt when you had various sort of like, you know, there's nuns that went over there and all sorts, but it was, it would have been a heck of a journey at that point, obviously. Yeah. And it had to, I would have thought there would have been some kind of carnage paper trail or something. If he was as,

accident prone or you know yeah but he wasn't famous then he was famous when he went to Russia right but not early travels he would just be a dude yeah and if he was connected with the sovereign military order of Malta isn't it feasible that he could have gone on some trips with them it is feasible yeah I'm definitely not ruling it out because I've got no proof either I

I'm sure. But I'm not one of those people that kind of says, oh, yes, I'm sure he did. He must have done. If I don't know, I'll just turn around and say, I don't know. Right, right. But remember, most people listening in have barely heard about Cagliostro. So we're forming their first impression here. Well, actually, I'm probably not giving a very good impression on them, but

I think the thing to do is he's such an irrepressible sort of character that you have to just dive in and see what you think with him. He's a bit Marmite. You either love him or hate him, you know. Marmite, yeah, I get that. Yeah, unfortunately...

Sorry, I was just saying, but it fits because in this series we're doing biographies. When I think about it, most of the people representing are dual like that. For example, the next one I'm going to interview about is Blavatsky. She is also a shaded character. Oh, yeah. Greater than life, but an adventurer. It looks like it's a trait many of these people share, actually. Eugenicists kind of have got that.

She was racist. But then that was the time, wasn't it? Again, pretty much what we discussed earlier, not when we were recording, but we have to remember that these were very different times. And even with Kelly Ostro, we have no idea about what it was like to try and survive within the kind of social networking. And you would have to make up a lot to be accepted in the nobility in those days.

so all these people are people of their time and we we can't judge them by modern standards in some respects although from a psychological point of view humans haven't changed a huge amount so we can get an idea of their character and work it out from studies that we've now read about and things that we know you know sort of modernly but

It gets into very dangerous territory when you start trying to blacken people's names using modern kind of standards. So we have to keep an open mind. And actually, it's quite fun to be able to kind of both revere and put down people in the same go because it then gives people a chance to make up their own mind as well. Yeah.

Nuances, of course. You know, all the people we said that Karl Kljostrom met, I forgot to ask you about Franz Anton Messmer, you know, the father of messmerism. Wasn't he involved somehow? He certainly circulated in the Masonic Lodges sometimes.

around the time that Calligotro was in Europe, in France and around that area, I think they did actually meet. And for my sins, I lost a bit of research and I'm desperate to try and find it again, whereby there was an account of him and Mesmer and Mozart meeting

Wow. All together. I'd like to be a fly on the wall. Oh, God. I find it. So answers on a postcard, please. Yeah. Again, there's a lot of mix over between all these different people. And Kaliostri used to use magnetism as well. Yeah. I'm bad. He picked up stuff from Masmer that he applied for himself.

Yeah, so, I mean, God, can you imagine just a party with all these people there? It would have been... Casanova, Mozart, I mean, wow. God, if we could kind of do a time machine back. Yeah, exactly. It wouldn't be on my top three, but it's... No, I'll go to Egypt first. But if it's like, yeah, right, but if it's like, you know, pick one for each century. Hmm.

1700s, this is it. Oh, yeah. It was, I mean, there's nothing to compare now, is there, in that respect? They're kind of like just celebs dripping off of

off of every wall practically you know and so such different personalities too yeah so different contributions to the human heritage and that's the most fascinating you know what would it be like to be I suppose we could mention Adam Weishaupt too who's been very slandered you know

there are people who literally thinks that the Illuminati is still around us. Like in an unbroken chain and people are showing membership cards and they're following this

300 year old script of how to take over the world I'm not dissing the fact that not so very beneficial people are conspiring for their own agenda and we are suffering from it I mean by all means that's called politics right? but this

I've always tried to debunk this thing about Adam Weishaupt's creation still being there, but it was a real thing then. Oh, yeah. And they were very revolutionary. And did he meet Weishaupt? Do we know? Don't know. I have got a feeling that, again, that they probably all rubbed shoulders at some point. It...

distinctly possible and like I said everyone was grabbing little bits of everybody else's wisdom and popping it into their own stuff and they were you know whatever anybody says Caliastro he was involved in a lot of political stuff as well and it's not surprising in some ways that he was kept under close eyes because that heady mixture of politics religion and chucking some magic as well and you're going to be on somebody's wish list aren't you but

Yeah, but look at Francis Bacon and John Dee. They were not very different. It was the same going on there. Yeah. Oh, yeah, definitely. And all the stuff that was happening with him and Kelly when they went abroad, Dean and John Kelly, not John Kelly, Edward Kelly, they were getting mixed up in all sorts of political stuff over wherever they traveled. And again, intelligent free thinkers, they're going to get themselves in trouble at some point.

Funnily enough, when you talk about people that Cagliostro met or who were influenced, Mozart's wonderful Magic Flute, that was based on Cagliostro. I didn't know that. I knew it was full of Masonic symbolism, but wow. Yeah, yeah. Well, I think Sorastro was...

well according to some sources that that mozart kind of based on caliostrope i mean he's called himself the grand copter right you know it's like big kind of and yeah i just he did have such a huge impact on that part of the world um

It was quite incredible, really. I mean, for goodness sake. I mean, they were making marble busts of him and all sorts and flogging them in Paris. And, you know, he was an absolute rising star for a while. But then, unfortunately, that star kind of fell. Maybe it's, I mean, few people can handle, the ego can't handle that kind of veneration. So maybe it's, you know, the rule is that you become this great after you die. Yeah.

maybe that's for a reason. Yeah, absolutely.

Well, look what happens to a lot of the young people nowadays who become influencers and become incredibly famous. And a lot of them just can't take it. And I think, yes, it must just make the ego explode, implode, whichever way it goes. But I'm wondering another thing, since you're an expert on masonry, you know, the so-called Egyptian masonry and most known there is...

The Ancient and Primitive Rite of Memphis Mithrim. Now, I understand the Rite of Memphis and the Rite of Mithrim were founded by two different people, but could we say that they were inspired by Cagliostro, if not Cagliostro had a hand in this creation? Oh, yeah, absolutely. He was very much influenced by Don Pernetti himself.

who, you know, the whole Martinism, the orders of Martinism and stuff like that. He had fingers in all pies and I think he did inspire a lot of people. And obviously each time something gets put into a new ritual or into some kind of, you know, metamorphosis into something else and people add their own bits and pieces, which is kind of like the beauty of a lot of this stuff is that it takes a while to unpack it. It's like a kind of esoteric onion thing.

And Freemasonry is like that anyway. You kind of have to peel all these layers and you'll find bits of this in there and bits of that. But it's a question of who influenced who and who took what and

So yeah, I think they were heavily influenced by him and they probably really sort of respected the work that he was doing at the time. Do you think his version of the rituals that you have published were available to these people back then?

I would imagine so because like I said he started up his lodge of Egyptian Freemasonry in Lyon and that was quite widely accepted and I would imagine people took it and ran when he got imprisoned it was kind of well we'll take his stuff and

And run. Yeah, and they burned all his manuscripts. So I'm thinking there may be out there a lot of stuff that actually comes from Caglioscio, but we wouldn't know it because it's scattered. I'd love to think so. And the different people who had it, they just continued, right? Yeah. Yeah.

But the thing with him is that things have been discovered all the time. Like I said about Reinhardt Markner has done some really, really interesting research. And there's so many people that, you know, after mine and Bob's book came out, it really kind of sparked.

some serious interest and people have gone out and done much more research and you know they've found equally as interesting and unique things about him as well which is is lovely because then we can get an even bigger picture and the side of him that was incredibly intelligent and very well versed in the esoteric and you know sort of biblical studies um

That side of him is incredibly interesting and it kind of makes us then want to shake off the dodgy side of him. And I think that is where the real kind of conflict comes in.

And I've just been talking to somebody else online and they said that someone else has just dug up a load of more information about his past, which there has been so much of that done, which, you know, it is great. And it's good to have proof of any research that you do. I just wonder now, are we flogging a dead calliostrope or blood, you know?

A bit like flogging a dead horse, flogging dead caleostro. But it's exciting. It's interesting. And people love research. I love research. And it's just such an enjoyable thing to be able to say to people, hey, what do you think of this? Make your own mind up. Take it away. I don't want people to get me. Yeah. I mean, many people have a need to black and white stuff, but...

I think the more mature you get, the more you can accept that people are, you know, shades of grey and that, yeah, if there's some value in this, you can run with it without coming from an angel, you know, a saint. And he was a martyr, at least he was a martyr. He was, absolutely. Yeah.

And poor old Serafina. Literally, I just found out when I was doing a little bit of refreshing my memory earlier, because I knew where she'd been taken to a convent, and I'd been trying to do some research to see if I could find out whether they'd got any old records. Unfortunately, it's all under restoration and restoration.

Oh, wow.

And that means both of them died pretty young. I mean, he just became, what, 52, 53? Yeah. And she was, well, she was a lot younger than him, wasn't she? Because when she married him, she was 15. She must have been in her 40s. Yeah. Early 40s, maybe. It's really sad. Yeah. There's a story in that. Yeah, absolutely. I thought that when you started to introduce her to the story that I'd like to, you know, a movie could just as well have been made about her.

If we had more facts. Or a movie from her angle. That would be interesting. It's kind of in the back of my mind too. It's like a little Bonnie and Clyde thing. Yeah. I like that. So your book is called The Masonic Magician, The Life and Death of Count Cagliostro and his Egyptian Rite. I see now, you corrected me, and I see now, yes, it was all the way back in 2008.

And you wrote it with a chap called Robert Cooper, right? Yeah. Robert's still, I mean, he's a prolific writer and he's done some great stuff. Yeah, actually, no, he's the creator of the Grand Royal Scotland Museum and Library in Edinburgh. Oh, so he would have access to a lot of

information. Oh yeah, I went to the library, it's amazing, I could have stayed in there for about a month. He wrote the Roslyn Hoax, which is a fascinating look at Roslyn Chapel in Scotland. And

another book cracking the freemasons code so if anybody wants to have a look at bob's books as well he is very very very well read and he's an expert on all things free mostly especially scottish freemasonry and really nice guy so so but then you have gone ahead and translated a classic on cagliostro we mentioned it a few times today the author is mark haven

But would you say that if anyone wants a biography of Cagliostro, I'm assuming you would recommend that one as the definite one? Yeah, I mean, well, it's absolutely packed with a huge amount of information on Cagliostro. It is...

he is a real apologist for Kelly Astro. So you won't get much in there to say that he was a bad boy. Although he does cover actually, there's a chapter called the charlatan, but yeah, if you want a really in-depth look at Kelly Astro's, you know, sort of life and it's got some brilliant illustrations in there as well as a wonderful picture of a building that he had built when he was in Switzerland and,

And it was the place where he was supposedly meant to do the quarantines and have his laboratory. And on the floor plan, it shows the floor plan, there's a billiards room. And I mean, every alchemical laboratory and retreat centre needs a billiard room, obviously. I just thought that was just so bizarre. But then again, the times people were really into their kind of

leisure stuff as well. Yeah, in France, I know there was, it was very popular in the 1700s and 1800s with, probably not just France, but at least I know there, with all sorts of what we today would call a complementary medicine, not allopathy, but all sorts of, you know, alternatives. Yeah.

So, and everything from, of course, stuff that actually works. I mean, Paracelsus insisted on washing the hands, right? From that to, you know, half crazy things, right? I mean, probably not more crazy than leeches, but still, there was a lot of stuff.

Yeah, there's always a grain of truth in there somewhere. And yeah, I mean, basically herbalism, most modern medicines nowadays are,

are either synthesized or derived from plants. Nature. Yeah. I mean, chemotherapy is often, it's been based on things like yew berries, mistletoe. I mean, obviously I'm not saying to anyone that they should go out and eat mistletoe or yew berry. It is a synthesized version and they extract the bit that actually does the job, not the bit that kills you. Yeah.

Right, right, right. Although chemotherapy kind of is in effect a toxic effect, but it's toxic to cancer. Yeah. I had no idea. That's interesting. Yeah. It's fascinating. Aspirin is white willow bark.

extract effectively so we're still taking the ancient wisdom and applying it to our modern life which is great absolutely I just want to add that the book in question here is called Cagliostro the unknown master a critical and historical study of high magic and

So he emphasizes the spiritual aspect of Karl Rostro. And okay, so if you want that, if you're interested in that part of his story, then this would be the book to get, right? Yeah, if you want the ritual, obviously, the Masonic... Yeah, I was going to say that. Only the rituals alone

makes it so that you have to go and get the other one, the Masonic Magician. Absolutely. Buy it. Read it. It's fantastic. I'm going to get it just for that. I will get your copy sent over. I'm sorry. I should have got you one, but it was a bit sort of difficult to get hold of one. That's okay. But there's lots in there. We talk about, you know, his early life, his travels, what it was that he did. We go into great detail about that.

alchemical, hermetic stuff. And there is a breakdown of what we kind of gleaned from the ritual and lots of other little interesting facts and things in there. So, I mean, they're both... Yeah, the Haven book was written, obviously, sort of early 1900s, so it's of a different time and very much... So I assume you had access to more sources than Haven must have had. Yeah.

Yeah, I mean, I was really lucky. I pretty much had the run of the library museum at UGLE in Great Queen Street in London. They got the most amazing library there. So I was able to dig into that.

things that he would never have perhaps got hold of because obviously there's a lot written afterwards there's a huge amount of books I've got quite a good library of old books about Calliostro I've got a big pile of them

Some are flattering. There's Trowbridge who wrote quite a nice one about him and then there were others that weren't quite so flattering. Well, when I read the descriptions of both your books actually, it looks more in sympathy with him than...

Anything else? Yeah. So you did a good job of nuancing it today because I don't expect too much of that in the book, or do you? I don't know. I haven't read it. I was quite enamored with him at the start. Right, right. I was kind of a bit smitten. Obviously, as you become a better researcher, you become far less biased and you try and get things from a more balanced perspective. Yeah.

And it's actually been really interesting to see it from both sides. And like I said, I still haven't made my mind up. I find him equally fascinating, equally kind of, oh,

You know, I'm not sure I'd actually want to meet him. But then this part of me goes, of course I would. Well, I guess meeting him would be interesting. Another thing would be to, you know, try out his different prescriptions. Maybe that's a longer short. Definitely. I think there are, I do believe there are lodgers that, especially one in France, that has upheld his ritual over there. Oh, okay. Yeah.

What are they called? What? Do you remember? No. The lodge that he actually set up was, oh, sorry, my cat just caught me. Lodge Sages in Lyon. I can't remember the name of it or the number of it. But I think from, I had some people contact me afterwards and they said that they were actually still doing the ritual, which would be amazing to see. Hmm.

And that was another thing that I really wanted somebody to do a reenactment of it because it goes into such great detail about what you have to wear for each apprentice, fellow crafter and master. And he even talks about the sashes that you've got to wear and all this kind of stuff. So it gives a really, really good colourful overview of everything. And so it would make an amazing reconstruction piece.

historical reenactment, whatever, you know. I agree. I agree. And the definite movie is yet to be done. Hope you get to have a hand in that. Oh, I know. I'd love to. I was actually...

trying to think who I'd like, if I did do a film, who I'd like to play Calliostro. Yeah? Let's hear it. I actually thought Johnny Depp would be great because he's kind of like an adorable bad boy. Yeah, yeah, but he has already done Don Juan. He has. And I think he's too pretty, too handsome to be Calliostro. He is a bit, actually, isn't he? Right? He's a woman in you speaking now, I think. Oh, let's not do him. What?

There we go. We don't know. Maybe he is perfect for playing Kelly Estrin. I'm sure he would do a good job of it. That I'm sure of. But what about the chap who played in Dangerous Liaisons? You know who I mean? I forgot his name. John Malkovich. Yeah, he's too old now. He's too old. But there was an other movie who came out at the same time. Almost exact same story.

who had an other actor I just forgot there were actually two versions coming out at the same year I think or within a few years of each other of Dangerously Assault I forgot the title of the other one but that had another actor

Trouble is, all the ones I can think of, they probably are too old now. Yeah, all of them. Maybe I'm just getting too old. There was a movie about Casanova, but I forgot who played there. Oh, well, we'll have to think on that one and try and come up with some kind of fabulous cast. But Johnny Depp would have the kind of Italian vibe. It shouldn't be someone who looks Norwegian, so...

No. So that would work. No. And actually, he has put on a bit more weight lately as well. Yeah. Maybe it's perfect now. That's right. Oh, anyway. Now,

Well, we have to guide people to your stuff. So you have a website. And by the way, you call yourself as an author, you call yourself Philippa Lee. But your actual name is Philippa Fawkes. What would you, I mean, Fawkes is a cool name. Why would you not go by that? That was my name.

I, well, as happens when you get divorced, change your name. Oh, I see. So I've changed back to my maiden name. Right, right, right. So my feature writing and editing work and things like that, I go under Philippa Lee.

the books so far have been called for folks and I'm just kind of working on another book at the moment and I'm kind of thinking what do I come out what do I bring that one out under what about Philippa Lee folks yeah

Yeah, no, it does run off the tongue quite well, I must admit. Yeah, I have a website, but it's kind of under construction, but I just haven't got around to sorting it out for a while. But if you just Google Philippa Lee, then you'll find me. But you can give the URL to be sure. Yeah, it's WordPress. It's philippa-lee.

Yeah. Philippa with two Ps. One L. Yeah. P-H-I-L-I. Two Ps. A. Yeah. Actually, can I just plug the Square magazine? Oh, sure. Sorry. I forgot to mention that. That's fine. I'm the editor of the Square magazine, which is now a digital magazine.

online magazine for Freemasons across the world, regardless of your jurisdictions or whichever order you're in. We encourage, basically what we're trying to do is encourage knowledge sharing.

within all Masonic fraternities and for people to kind of engage with all levels of Masonry, whether it's history or the ritual or, you know, the kind of self-improvement side of things. So if you'd like to have a look, it's squaremagazine.com. Hang on, hang on. There's two different things. One is squaremag.org and the other one is squamag.

thesquaremagazine.com is this the same or is it two different no that's the latter one is the magazine

thesquaremagazine.com. So what are the others? Imposters? I don't know. I haven't looked at that one. I think people use The Square as all sorts of different websites. Ours is the best, obviously. At least yours is about what you're saying. But let me ask you a critical question about that. You say it's for everyone. It's Pan-Masonic.

Does that include, because especially the Brits, U-G-L-E, is very dogmatic. Like they are, oh, you are genuine, you are not genuine. We recognize you, we don't recognize you. So is this also for stuff like so-called French masonry and also stuff like co-masonry? Yeah, absolutely. We don't, we're not under any kind of banner within France.

Yeah, we equally would promote Freemasonry, regular Freemasonry, Co-Masonry, Liberal Masonry. It's more about exploring and giving out aspects of information and things like that so that people can be educated. How long has this magazine been in circulation?

Okay, well, I was editor of the print version, which was actually under Lewis Masonic, the publishers. That ran for many, many years, and that was a print magazine.

they decided to finish that one and my publisher took it on and decided to go digital only because then it would reach far more people it's free to read we encourage contributions from people all over the world and we've got some great writers I mean we've literally got people from Russia Brazil and

Didn't Tobias Churton write for this? You mentioned him before we went on. I read that he was writing for Summer Sonic magazine. Was this that? I think he probably had in the past. He's probably written for the square and probably freemasonry today, which is the one that is under UGLE, you know, the Grand Lodge of England. And I used to write for them. You know, I have no prejudice against any of the,

different types of freemasonry. I believe that we're, you know, we're all trying to work towards the main goal of actually just sort of being better people. And,

and we all have bumps along the way, a bit like, you know, Calliostro, and it's always a work in progress, isn't it? So that's kind of what we're, we just want to engage with Freemasonry worldwide and be able to encourage people to look beyond perhaps their own boundaries, not to necessarily join them, but to understand and see what each other's doing around the world.

Because you can get very enclosed. I mean, the UK is very kind of like, oh, we don't want to step our toe out into some of that kind of liberal stuff over there. Whereas, you know, there's so much that other countries with their different viewpoints on Freemasonry, their different histories have.

there's so much we could share with each other. And again, that's the beauty of writing is that it is just a conduit for helping people understand, giving people information that they can do what they want. It's something that, you know, it's just such a valuable thing in everyone's lives. And yeah, well,

with the square we're just trying to reach everybody really because like i said i'm curious i want to know what everyone's doing so um if you're in the wildest parts of the world and want to get in touch because you've got something interesting to share about masonry in your part of the globe

We'd love to hear from you. And equally, you know, I'd be quite happy to hear from someone down the road. Well, since you work for a Freemasonic journal, I want to tip you off something. I don't know how you will react to this. I mean, it sounds outrageous, but...

Yeah.

They are actually a remnant, a survival of Norse mystery cults. Oh, interesting. And it all happened under...

It's a long story and I'll send you the link to a show so you can check it out. But it happened under King Adelstein where he Christianized them in order to get acceptance both from the autonomic Viking colonies because it was their rights but also the other people that he... Because he took over a kingdom. I forgot what he was called but his predecessor was only the Norse colonies and...

Adelstein had English, and so he took both. And then he Christianized it. And the evidence is down to details, like the slipper on the foot. He even tells us what the word Freemasonry comes from. It really means the wall or Freya. And free comes from Freya. Long story, but the wall is in the underworld when you...

Between life and death. Anyway, you'll hear all that. I'll not ramble about it now. But some masons are very negative to this, the Christian masons, especially those here in Scandinavia. And some masons are very positive to this, especially in Italy for some reason. And also Iceland. Interesting. Yeah, so maybe that's something for you to write about at some point.

Yeah, I mean, if the guy that wrote or, you know, did the research, I mean, if he wants to, you know, have anything featured in the magazine, then just put him in touch with me. Yeah, I don't think he is, actually. He's old. He's 80 and he was thrown out of the Freemasonic order for publishing this book.

It's just horrible. It's just idiotic. That's crazy, really. It is crazy. But you know, in Norway, they are very different than elsewhere. Very conservative, very alienated to their own tradition. Many of them are Christians, so...

I'm talking about the Swedish system. Yeah, yeah. Oh, that's, well, I mean, everybody's got their own opinion, and I do find it quite weird that people who say that it's tolerant don't turn out to be very tolerant. So, I feel, oh, that's really sad that he actually got, you know, sort of... Yeah, but then an Italian lodge made him a, I think it's the philosophical right, they made him, he's an honorary member of the

in Torino. But you, you're a woman.

Am I to assume that you are a member of Le Droit to Mine? No, I'm not. I was initiated into the Honourable Fraternity of Ancient Freemasons, known as HFAF for short. Never heard of. Yeah, okay. It's two of the female-only orders, I guess.

Yeah, I know about the blue star. It's not that one, right? No, no. I mean, obviously, there's tons and tons of different orders, isn't there? It is. It just gets really, really difficult. It's a mess.

Yeah, because I literally just did a feature on Klipsas, the sort of like conglomeration of all the different lodges throughout Europe. Wow. For them, the big thing is that you don't have to profess belief in a supreme being, which kind of goes against a lot of the other. Okay, that sounds more like Grand Orient than those guys. They are very secular. Yeah, yeah.

It's kind of all under this umbrella sort of group, really. But the more you delve into it, I mean, things just get so complicated and everybody seems to have got a gripe about everybody else. Yeah.

you know, it's very difficult to not offend somebody. Yeah. Actually nowadays. But we are safe today because we're going so far back in history that there's no one around to be offended. Mind you, I'm sure there could be somebody that could be offended on their behalf. Yeah, always. But I mean, that's a psychological issue, not a social problem. Yeah. But the chap I mentioned, Gino,

He's very adamant that the other stuff is not from Norse, but that the core is, the core Masonic degrees is from, actually from England and Scotland and

during the Viking ages. That would be a perfect article. That would be fascinating. I mean, we've had articles that have briefly touched on King Aethelstan and things like that. And like I said, we're open to anything that would be of interest to the multiple layers that go with Freemasonry, whether it's the history, the origins, the

the esoteric side of things or the social side of it, the psychology of it, anything really. But it's really nice to obviously challenge people's views, get people thinking, get people talking and,

And that's something that perhaps over this past year, when most lodgers haven't been able to meet in person, is that we've all got far more personable and able to talk to each other across the globe via Zoom and stuff like that. And podcasts like this reach so many other people that we didn't get to before. Yeah.

It's really good. Exactly. Yeah, I did listen to the one you did with Tobias Churton. Right. Not my best show, but Tobias was good. Yeah. Yeah, I haven't seen him for ages. I met him, oh God, a long time ago now. Well, I mean, he's buried under a million books and research projects, isn't he? Especially now that he's 100% private. Yeah.

Unfortunately, the university thing imploded. I had Christopher McIntosh on. He talked a little about that too. You know in Exeter they had this esoteric study field.

Yeah, yeah. So that was tragic. What happened? It's all gone. Long story, but you know, it's the way of the world. You know, BBC used to be great ones too. I've had not only Tobias, but others on too who told me about that. And now it's

It's a parody of a shadow of itself. And I think you can say the same for, you know, every time something good comes, they count the forces and try to pull it down. So I don't know. But there is esoteric study in other universities in the world, not just England anymore. Yeah.

Of course, yeah. Not everything revolves around us. No. Not anymore. No, definitely not. All right. Okay, Philippa. Oh, and one more thing. It's an interesting collection of books you've done. Very varied. I mean, one that's kind of related is A Handbook for the Freemason's Wife. Yeah. So anyone who's... I mean, today, Look, Girls!

It's a myth that you can't be a mason as a woman. There is something called, I mentioned it today, it's called Le Droit du Mime, and that's not the only comasonic order, but it's at least a genuine one. It's not just something, it's not just created to get women in, it's been there. Oh,

It's been there forever, right? And now it's all over the world. So, yeah, women can experience the Masonic rites. And in addition, of course, there are female orders, like here in Norway. All the male orders have a female equivalent. Like the Druids have...

I forgot who has what, but we have something called the Rebecca Order, the Maria Order, and the Brigitte Order. I think the Brigitte is for the Druids. I think the Maria is for the Oddfellows. And I think the Rebecca is for the Masons. Yeah, I mean, here in the UK, we have two female-only orders, actually.

There's the Honourable Fraternity of Ancient Freemasons, which is the one that I was initiated into. And then there's the Women's Order of Freemasonry. And effectively, we follow craft ritual or, you know, Blue Lodge ritual. Hmm.

But there are many other offshoots. And obviously there's female-only orders throughout Europe as well. You know, it depends on what you want. Sometimes it's nice to not have the distraction of the opposite sex. Not just from that point of view, but that you just kind of... And I think that's why a lot of...

Masons who are in the regular borders, for them, it's just a bit of a space. You know, they can have their own space. Women get lost. Well, then that argument should be used all over the board. Schools and... Well, I talk with a Brit. Don't you have a segregation of genders in schools? You used to have. We used to have it a lot more nowadays. They've kind of blended a lot of them. But, yeah, we still have...

girls' schools and boys' schools. It's so archaic. It's so 17th century. I can promise you one thing. If you go back to antiquity, you will see that, yeah, there's been female cults, there've been male cults, and there've been mixed cults. So I don't believe there's a spiritual argument against it, but okay, I can buy the distraction argument. But I would say to those who

That's just a cue for you to work on what you get distracted by. That's so true. Because if a man sits in a lodge and has sexual feelings to another woman, then he's in trouble, right? He should overcome himself. So, yeah, I don't really buy it, but that's my opinion. I mean, people are free. Actually, I think the Brits have probably got more of a problem with it than you guys. Yes, I think so.

Actually, to prove a point regarding women-only things, the book that I'm actually working on at the moment is about the ancient Egyptian wives of Amun. Interesting. Yeah, that is fascinating. And they were some of the most powerful women in ancient Egypt. They were up there with Pharaoh.

That's another time. Yeah, yeah. But talking about, you know, links to the ancient times, here's another thing to explain my bias. And that's that in ancient mystery schools, men and women work together. Yeah, sure. Yeah, and Pythagoras did it even, you know. Hypatia in Egypt, she was the top initiate of this lineage. Yeah.

So many females have, through history, not many, but some have, through history, had the opportunity to shine. And it's interesting when Cagliostro said that he was dividing women and men as parts of the ritual, because the reason ancient traditions kept the fact that it's not like a different order or even different rites, but they...

accommodate that the psychological setup is different in gender. So in the female initiation, there's a partly different symbolism. Whereas in the male initiation, it's a partly different symbolism because it works better. So there's some differences. For example, the males become priests, the females become priestesses. And also there's some things that only females can do. For example, operate with sibyls. Only women can be sibyls. Yeah.

And so there are some differences, but all in all, we are equal and have access to the same kind of study material and disciplines and many rituals are the same. So yeah, there are gender differences to accommodate, but it's a combination of respecting the differences of the genders, but also acknowledging that we are equal. That's where I'm coming from.

And that's why I'm kind of skeptical also to push women through a masonic ritual because it's so laden with male symbolism. Absolutely. That is what I was literally about to say. That is the one thing that a lot of the male Freemasons say. You know, it's not that we don't want women, but Freemasonry is geared towards the male psyche. Exactly. Exactly.

And according to the research of this Norwegian, he said that the three degrees of blue masonry is actually the initiation to Freya, initiation to Thor, and initiation to Odin. That's the three original rituals that that has been developed from. Right.

So, and then we would think, okay, initiation to Freya, but that would mean it would be feminine. No, because it was males being initiated into it. You'll understand when you hear the show, if you bother. I'm going to send you the link. Oh, I will do. No, it's fascinating. And that's my beef with masonry, is that it's very blind. It's like a eternal vision in terms of gender. Yeah.

Well, I mean, let me tell you, basically, I really, I found it. It didn't touch me. It didn't grip me the way that you hear about men talking about it. It's because it's a male ritual. And so I always used to hate the idea of co-mationary.

But I'm beginning to think that perhaps that would be the way to go because partly because it's more spiritual than the other one, but also that, as you said, there is a different balance. And I think I've grown up

lot more because I mean I've been involved with Masons as married to Mason obviously and I've been surrounded by them for the past 25 years or so and I don't think that they would actually cope with having a woman in the lodge sort of them they haven't got the point yeah but that's what you get when you make an organization huge the only way I'm convinced the only way a small an order can survive is

I mean, it can become a museum, right, like the masons. But if it's going to survive not just air, earth, which is history, but also with the inner connection, fire, water, the vertical line, then you need to keep it. There's some principles that you can't betray. One is to keep it small. Mm-hmm.

small groups no more than 12 13 in one unit so you have to keep it small you also have to keep it autonomous as much as possible not like ugla which is like a new vatican as much autonomy as possible and

And also you need to keep it under the radar and that's where everybody fails. They set up websites, blah, blah, blah. But if you keep it under the radar, small groups, decentralized, then it's becoming word of mouth. It's becoming networking. I meet someone. They're interested. Maybe they get an opening through me and boom. That's how it can survive through the ages. Otherwise, you get on the radar of the Vatican, of the CIA, of who knows? Anyone who wants to –

And even if people don't want to take it down and destroy it, what you will get is a lot of people joining for the wrong reasons, right? Yep. Which Masonic is well known for. Yep. So that's what I believe. Yeah. Well, okay. I'm going to tell you something interesting after we're done here. Okay. I suppose it's meaningless to mention it now. People will only get irritated. I think they've listened to me long enough.

They can all go and have a stiff drink or a cup of coffee or something. Yeah, chill down. It's an absolute pleasure. But hang on, let's just mention the rest of your book. So you have a book called Hannah Magic, Crafting Charms and Rituals with Sacred Body Arts. That sounds interesting. You have one called Secrets of Meditation. That piqued my interest as an old meditation coach, right? You have The Zen Diet Revolution, The Mindful Path to Permanent Weight Loss.

And you have modern mantras. So obviously you also have some kind of Eastern influence in your stuff too. Yeah, well, to be honest, I have so much curiosity in the world that I embrace knowledge from all aspects. And it's nice to be able to share it with other people. I like the simplicity of the Eastern mantras.

traditions in that respect because to do anything to do with diet or even the diet of the mind it's about keeping things very simple and balanced and i don't know i just feel that that's something that is perhaps lacking in the more western traditions that western traditions especially to do with esoteric stuff tend to be all kind of like

bling and bluster and big rituals, whereas the Eastern traditions are often a lot calmer and more balanced. And it's got that kind of feel about it that makes you actually feel almost like instantly calm.

and in tune with yourself, whereas the other stuff kind of can rile you up a bit and get you a bit fired up. So, yeah, no, I'm just really intrigued by many different things, as you can see by the rather eclectic. It's partly what my publishers wanted me to do as well. But I have now moved more perhaps towards my real passion, which is Ancient Egypt, obviously.

I love it. Same here. I'm a Greco-Egyptian fetishist, so yeah, I'm with you there. Oh, there's me going on about that earlier. No, but...

No, it's incredibly, all of it's fascinating. Like I said, I'm very much more of a bit of a purist to do with Egypt, but I think that whatever the influence was that they imparted on the world, it sure as hell hasn't dimmed in fascination for most of us, whether it's the architecture, whether it's the spiritual side or literally just the incredible culture world.

We find more and more about with every year. I mean, they're finding incredible things out there still. And I could rabbit on about Egypt forever. So if you ever want me to come back and talk about that. About what? About Egypt. Egypt, yes. Yes. When your other book is out. Obviously, I'm biased towards the spiritual aspect. So one of my favorites are René Chuala de Lubitsch.

Oh, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So, I mean, one thing is the mainstream knowledge, but I'm very much into...

the more esoteric gleanings of the Egyptian heritage. And of course, not all is at the level of Kogliostro. There are some genuine hermetic impulses out there too. I'm very interested in the early, the rituals of the, well, I mean, basically politics and religion did mix very much. I mean, you had state magic over there and then you had what we sort of tend to call folklore or...

just sort of basic magic but the actual rituals that were held within the temples absolutely fascinating and that's one thing that I've been looking into for many many years and the wives of Amun of course that I was talking about were very much a big part of the upholding of the concept of Maat which was everything to the ancient Egyptians but that's

for another time. And which is nothing in our contemporary culture. No, I don't think we've even got into their mindset. They were very different people and

I don't, I really don't think we'll ever quite understand what it was that they were doing. And I don't particularly like it when people try and manufacture what they class as being Egyptian magic or ritual, because to be honest, we don't really know.

what they were up to. I mean, we have the basics, you know, the stuff that they put on the temple and the tombs, but trying to actually extract something that we can comprehend and put together to make an actual genuine reconstruction of it, we're not there and probably never will do. But it's fun trying to find out. It is. I mean, the journey itself, right? Yeah, absolutely.

It was a pleasure, Jonny, to speak with you about this today. God, it's been so interesting talking to you. And the weird thing is that I've been in lockdown on my own pretty much for on and off nearly a year now. And it's just so nice to be able to talk to other people about this kind of stuff because, you know, I feel starved in some way of decent sort of

intellectual or fun or kind of deeper thought. Mm-hmm.

And it's been a real treat, actually. So I really appreciate everything that you shared. And I'm so happy that the hearing thing wasn't an issue. No, it's so true. If you hadn't told me, I wouldn't know. Well, it's like these hearing aids are amazing. They're Bluetooth. They don't function brilliantly on all levels, but I've just found that connecting them to my phone has just given me a new lease of life, really, that I can actually...

But Bluetooth, you say, is it not possible to get it with wire? Because Bluetooth isn't the most healthy energy you want to have. No, unfortunately, because they can't be connected to anything that has a wire, it has to be done remotely. So it has to be Bluetooth. If I could actually...

It'd be great if they invented some kind of headphones that were also hearing aids. Yeah. That'd be really cool. But to be honest, nobody's particularly interested because they don't really care. If they're not deaf, they don't give a monkey's about it, you know. Yeah, that's true. And most people don't know about health risks with wireless anyway, so...

They didn't care just for that. I think you have to have... The problem is when you do have something that is not functioning in your body properly, it's kind of calculated risk as to what you do to try.

try and alleviate it so with the precisely that you find your own way eventually my motto is adapt and survive it's the only way to do it just remember to you know when you don't need it don't wear it too much you know what I mean oh absolutely no I only literally tune into it when I'm on the phone other times my hearing aids work

at just a basic level it's just that they can connect with the phone but I turn them off yeah in small doses I'm sure it's fine yeah but it gives me the pleasure of being able to chat with people so that kind of weighs up yeah I spoke the other day with a friend in England and

He was complaining about the same. I think you had a very hard shutdown of lockdown over there. It's been, it has been so difficult. I mean, I hadn't lived on my own for God knows decades, absolutely decades. And I was kind of forced into a position whereby I just moved into a new house on my own. My dad was seriously ill and then lockdown happened and,

I never saw my dad again. It was so difficult. And he died last May. Oh, wow. And having to kind of deal with my own stuff at the time and deal with the grief of not being able to see my dad and then him actually dying. Mm-hmm.

It's been a real baptism by far, but I feel like I've come out of it a lot stronger, you know, even having to deal with my illness. Actually, I don't call it an illness condition. You know, I can't do all the things that I wanted to be able to do, but I found ways around it, you know, and

Plus it's given you ample opportunity to research and write. Yeah, and also, I mean, editing the magazine keeps me busy as well, so I'm continually distracted, which is fun.

But if this is going to be our new life, I mean, one of the phenomenons that are hardest hit by this is precisely esoteric work, because you can't have a ritual over Zoom, you know? No, God, no. So we are actually suffering the most. Most things can be done, you know, digitally or alone. This specificity.

specific kind of work that we're talking about may die out if society doesn't change. Wow. And also, I think people are actually quite loathe to get back to doing stuff because they're kind of used to not work. Yeah. I didn't even think about that. I suppose because I've always been quite a solitary worker when I have been

Yeah. Well, I feel the pressure and we haven't had the hard lockdowns that you've had. We opened up, we had an immediate hard lockdown and then we quenched it and we opened up. Okay. And then we had a new one a few months ago that's still lasting, but...

It's like they open up a little here, a little there. Yeah. It's just gone. That is hard. So everybody is kind of frozen in their progression. Well, I think the masons have found the same thing because it's, I mean, again, they can't really have old initiations or raisings or, you know, anything in that respect. Everyone is suffering. Yeah. It's been a very odd time, but we're all one.

And there's nowhere to escape either. I mean, because the world has become so small, right? So that's the weird thing. I know. I can go a week. And actually, the first lockdown...

I went 10 weeks without actually having any face-to-face other than my neighbor's bit of contact. Right. And I got to the point where, you know, I hadn't actually had any physical contact, you know, not even just touching someone, tapping them on the shoulder or having a hug or something.

I hadn't had that for... And it freaked me out. No, but you have a cat. I know, I do. And that compensates a lot. It does, actually. We do have a moment where she looks amazing. She says, oh, God's sake. No, but it's proven. I mean, cats, single people...

are healthier physically and psychologically if they have a cat than those who are single who doesn't have a cat. Did you know that their purr can help heal bones if they're fractured? I read about it. It's something to do with vibrations. Yeah, it's that fascinating, isn't it? I just read briefly. It's fascinating stuff, man. And that makes sense because they're not just purring when they are pleased. They're also purring when they are in pain.

Absolutely. Yeah. A lot of people just don't... Well, I mean, as a...

a fellow cat lover, you understand these things, you know, that they're incredible creatures. No wonder the Egyptian were holding them in high esteem. And I also know that their spit can be, can kill bacteria or something. So that's right. Yeah. And they're much cleaner than dogs. So, so, you know, it's, it's just a win-win. It is. Absolutely. And they're just got such personality. I mean, mine's a tortoiseshell cat.

and they're known as being naughty Tortoise Tortoise shall cat found it let's see oh very colourful creatures

Yeah. So not like the calicos, which I think are more sort of American breed, but yeah, she's, she's pretty little thing. Hmm. So cute. Yeah. Um, what color is your one? Color? Oh, it's, you know, Maine Coons have very magical colors, hard to describe. Um,

It's not like one... It's not like... I did have a Norwegian forest cat. She was black and white, but... Oh, really? Wow. But this one is... She's huge. But she's been like a...

She's a rescue. But before I took over, she used to be win prizes and stuff like that. She hated it. But she was like that kind of cat in showings. Oh, wow. This one tends to be usually quite quiet. And then all of a sudden she decides she wants a bit of attention. But she keeps looking at me saying, why do you keep talking into that little box? Yeah.

Well, my nightmare is that she starts nagging me for food in the middle of the interview. Oh, it's a classic attention thing, isn't it? And quite often you go to the bowl and it's still got food in it. Yeah. If they're spoiled like mine, she only wants the best, so...

She always has dry food ready, available, but that's not always good enough. Of course not, no. Okay, that's it, I think. Okay. So I'm thanking you so much for being a good sport, coming on and sharing your knowledge. No, thank you. I really appreciate it. And like I said, it's been really good because it has...

rekindled my passion for Cali and I'm going to be doing quite a few more talks because other people have actually started inviting me to do things again and I feel like a bit of a veteran in that respect so I really appreciate you getting in touch yes okay thank you very much bye bye

And there you have it. Thanks again to our guest. And I will keep this post commentary short and sweet. It's been a long show already. So let me just share some quotes with you before we part. You know, in the...

In the program today, we did not treat his identity that much. I believe we just mentioned it, but there is actually a dispute if Joseph Balsamo is Cagliostro. And it is worth mentioning that this is not a closed case. Another thing is that although most of his...

writings are lost, because indeed he did write, for example, about alchemy, the philosopher's stone, and various mystical rites. But many of these texts were either unpublished, destroyed, or written in a cryptic manner. His actual written works are rare and hard to come by in their original form. And then there are also some of his writings often confused or misattributed.

such as the Holy Trinity in Sophia, which is believed to come from the Count of St. Germain, another mystical figure which deserves his own episode. In fact, I think we'll do one sooner or later. And then there's the Egyptian rite, of course, which is retrieved by our guest, Filippa. But to give you some meat on the bone, so you see he wasn't just a flamboyant trickster.

We have this quote. And from the Holy Trinosophia. And another one.

And this one. This is indeed true.

And when it comes to the borderline between madness and genius or between the trickster and the sage, I'm reminded of the following quotes, first from Nietzsche. And those who were seen dancing were thought to be insane by those who could not hear the music. And from Jung, the trickster is a figure who is always in conflict with society, yet by his very nature brings about change and renewal.

And Thomas Paine said: "A person who has nothing for which he is willing to fight, nothing which is more important than his own personal safety, is a miserable creature and has no chance of being free." I think all these quotes apply very well to the good count. That's it. The GOM calls out closing this session.

I've been your host, Al. Thanks to your support, your likes and shares. Leaving you with this thought in the words of Aristotle. No great mind has ever existed without a touch of madness. Easy. Easy.

Who is number one?