Ambivalence: Horcruxes (Book 6, Chapter 23)
44:54 Share

They say opposites attract. That's why the Sleep Number Smart Bed is the best bed for couples. You can choose what's right for you whenever you like. You like a bed that feels firm but they want soft? Sleep Number does that. You want to sleep cooler while they want to feel warm? Sleep Number does that too. Why choose a Sleep Number Smart Bed? So you can choose your ideal comfort on either side. And now save 50% off on the new Sleep Number Limited Edition Smart Bed.

Limited time, exclusively at a Sleep Number store near you. See store or sleepnumber.com for details. Hey, guys.

Have you heard of Goldbelly? It's this amazing site where they ship the most iconic, famous foods from restaurants across the country, anywhere, nationwide. I've never found a more perfect gift than food. They ship Chicago deep dish pizza, New York bagels, Maine lobster rolls, and even Ina Garten's famous cakes. So if you're looking for a gift for the food lover in your life, head to goldbelly.com and get 20% off your first order with promo code GIFT.

Ryan Reynolds here from Mint Mobile. I don't know if you knew this, but anyone can get the same premium wireless for $15 a month plan that I've been enjoying. It's not just for celebrities. So do like I did and have one of your assistant's assistants switch you to Mint Mobile today. I'm

I'm told it's super easy to do at mintmobile.com slash switch. Upfront payment of $45 for three-month plan, equivalent to $15 per month required. Intro rate first three months only, then full price plan options available. Taxes and fees extra. See full terms at mintmobile.com.

Want your sales team to spend more time selling? Nuno, Chief Information Officer of Valve, reduced his team's manual work by 60% with Monday CRM. His words, not ours. Since we know how precious your time is, we'll make this ad 60% shorter. Just enough time to find Monday CRM online while enjoying this moment of calm. ACAST powers the world's best podcasts. Here's a show that we recommend.

Hey, everybody. I'm Jen. I'm Jess. And we're Fat Mascara, the only beauty podcast you need in your life. We're beauty editors by day and podcasters by night. And we've got all the industry gossip for you, like insider product reviews and advice you're not going to find online. And the best part is interviews with the most sought-after experts in the beauty biz. Charlotte Tilbury. Jen Atkin. And makeup artist Sir John. That's just a taste of what you're going to get on the Fat Mascara podcast. So come hang with us. New episodes drop every Tuesday and Thursday.

ACAST helps creators launch, grow, and monetize their podcasts everywhere. ACAST.com Chapter 23, Horcruxes. Harry could feel the Felix Felicis wearing off as he crept back into the castle. The front door had remained unlocked for him, but on the third floor, he met Peeves and only narrowly avoided detection by diving sideways through one of his shortcuts. I'm Vanessa Zoltan. And I'm Matt Potts.

And this is Harry Potter and the Sacred Text. So Matt, this is your last episode with us for a while. You are engaging in some new commitments. You'll be back for the last episode of the season. And in book seven, I'll be around every once in a while in book seven. Yeah, but this is...

Sort of your last episode as official co-host and you are downshifting into special guest. That's right. I'll be back for the last chapter and occasionally in book seven, but I'm stepping back as co-host. And, you know, the last time we spoke about this a couple episodes ago, I expressed some ambivalence around this decision and I still feel that. And so we thought today we'd talk about ambivalence as our theme. Before...

Before we hear your story, though, I just want to ask you a couple of questions. Okay. What have you learned about the process of treating texts as sacred from doing this podcast for the last several years? I've learned that trying to summarize them in 30 seconds does not work.

Does not make them sacred. You don't think that that is a gesture toward an invitation to make sure that we are all on the same page and that all are welcome here? I think that's exactly what it is, but it makes me feel profoundly unwelcome. No, what I've learned is just how fruitful good intentions are.

Right? Like, however we approach these texts, I don't necessarily think that they were authored with the intention of them becoming sacred or being sacred, right? But as a community, as readers, even if we have ambivalence about the texts or about who wrote them, if we come to them with shared good intention, like intention to see something meaningful in the texts, that you can find something meaningful in the text. And that's not to say that like,

You know, I think there's a danger there of saying like, oh, it can mean anything. I don't think it can mean anything. I mean, the reason we have the conversations we have is like you have to actually find it in the text. Like there has to be something in the text. But it's incredibly fertile ground for you to actually do some work and think about what's important to you and what you want to take up from the text and also what you want to turn away from in the text. Right. And all of that discernment can be a step towards really finding something.

special value and meaning. And that's, you know, you're rubbing up against the sacred when you're doing that. So just how much the intention of the participants, how much the feeling of shared readership in a community, how much that work that can do to help you find meaning. Yeah.

One of the reasons that you wanted to stop now, I know that you had different reasons for wanting to step back that you talked about recently. But one of the reasons you want to stop now is because you're teaching a new class. And I am very proud of what you're up to. So can you please let me show off about you and tell us all what you're now doing? Yeah, thanks.

You know, ideally, I would have carried through to the end of the book. But because of our recording schedule, we're recording this a little bit earlier than you're hearing it, everyone. I'm teaching a class at Clark University, which is a university in central Massachusetts, in Worcester, Massachusetts. And it's through a program called Liberal Arts for Returning Citizens. They abbreviate it as LARC. And it's basically free college credit bearing classes for folks who have been impacted by the justice system.

So a lot of folks are returning from incarceration, but some folks are just have had other encounters with the justice system. And Clark through this great program, Clark provides for free. They provide dinner every class.

They provide IDs to use the library. They're fully, you know, fully Clark students. They can use the gym and the library. And they are able to take these classes and build some college credit so they can transfer into college programs and, you know, sort of rebuild lives that incarceration has served to pull apart. What class are you teaching? I'm teaching an introduction to ethics class. So we're talking about and we're focusing on some of the stuff that

I think about with forgiveness, but we're also talking about like other ways of adjudicating and thinking about how we ought to react to wrongdoing or respond to wrongdoing. And it's a really interesting class. I was talking to you yesterday or two days ago about our first class meeting.

It was a super energetic conversation, as you might imagine, with this group of folks. And I'm going back tonight to teach again, and I'm looking forward to it. I can't wait to keep hearing how it goes. And I will miss you as my co-host, but I suppose you can stop hanging out with me every week in order to do this. I guess. Is there a particular chapter you want to come back for for Book 7? Are you like, whenever you want to invite me, Vanessa? Yeah.

Yeah, there are a couple chapters I'm interested in. The one where Harry dives into the very cold water. Just because, as you know, you and I both love cold plunges. We love cold plunges. And I like when Harry goes to see Dead Dumbledore. King's Cross. Yep, King's Cross. I like that one. And Ugly Baby Voldemort is there. And Ugly Baby Voldemort. Yeah, that's what I was going to say. Like when he sees Dead Dumbledore and Ugly Baby Voldemort. That's one of my favorite chapters. I'd like to talk about that. Sure.

- I can't wait. You're invited for both of those. - Awesome. I can't wait also. - So Matt, you have our opening story today on this theme of ambivalence. What story do you have for us? - So for as long as I can remember, I wanted to be a priest or a pastor in a Christian church. And almost as long as that, ever since I figured out I was pretty good at school, like I thought I probably wanted to do all the school and get a PhD, right? And I held those things together for a long time.

And then when I was doing my PhD, it didn't seem real likely that I was going to get an academic job. And also, I was just kind of getting, frankly, a little bit tired of like academic work. And I liked it, but I also was like, I don't need to do this forever. And I just thought, you know, when my PhD ends, I'm going to take up a church back in Michigan where Colette and I are from, be close to family because Colette's parents live there, my parents live there. And that would just be the path of our lives. And then

During my last year, just before my last year of my PhD, a job at Harvard came open and people on the Harvard faculty really encouraged me to apply. And I was a little bit ambivalent about it because I was kind of thinking, yeah, maybe, but I think my call is to go back and minister at church. And then, you know, our listeners know how that went. Basically, I got the job and I finished my dissertation. And then there's one version of the story where it's just like, I got that job. And then here we are now, whatever it is, 12 years later, 13 years later, and I'm still a professor at Harvard.

But for like the first six or seven years of that, it was a constant source of ambivalence. Like I was working at a church at the same time as I was working as a professor. And Colette can tell you that because I think she was really irritated by it.

Probably once every two weeks, I'd come back on the bus from Boston and just say, like, I don't think that this is for me. I don't think being a professor at Harvard is for me. I think I'm meant to primarily pastor a church. And this would get especially, like, ripe in the summers because in the summers, I would be kind of full time at the church doing work. We were at a church on Cape Cod, so it was a large summer community there. I'd be busier with church stuff. I wouldn't be busy with Harvard.

Harvard stuff. And we'd also usually go back to Michigan to visit family during the summers. And we'd be like, oh my gosh, family is here. The church is the most fulfilling part of my life. Why are we staying so far from family when we have small children and there are grandparents there who the only thing they want to do is to care for our children and be close to us. And oh my gosh, they're getting older. And why are we so far away? And so every summer it would resurface

And also like every New Year's, I distinctly remember January 1st, it was probably 2014 or 2015. I had a New Year's resolution to get in better shape. So I went for a run on January 1st. And I remember running along the beach in Falmouth and like looking at the sun over the water on this very cold day and just being like, what am I doing here?

Here, it's beautiful, but what am I doing in Massachusetts at Harvard? What I want is to be close to family and to pastor a church and we should go, right? And I remember going home and like looking for jobs and Colette and I saw a church posting. We were like, let's apply for this one in a couple of months. Like we were that far along and thinking about moving back. But Harvard was like, it was stable, right? Like it was the job I already had, not the job I didn't have yet, right? And it was a job that, you know, promised a lot of possibility and prestige and,

It paid us pretty well, you know, better than a job at a small church back in Michigan would. And I don't think those are the only reasons why anybody should make a decision, but there are reasons, right? Right. And it was always easier to kind of stay where we were. And I don't want to oversell it. Like there was stuff I enjoyed too. Like I would get a book published and that's really exciting and fun. And I would teach classes with people like you and Casper. And that would be really fulfilling. And it was not like I was walking away from something I hated. It's just I felt this strong ambivalence.

There were two things I really cared about and two things I really enjoyed doing and two places I wanted to be. It was back and forth and back and forth, which is really etymologically what ambivalence means. The etymologically it means the ambit means both. And the Valerie is like the same word that is the root for valor. It just means like strength or power. And it's like it's having two powerful things together.

at the same time holding onto two powerful things. The end of the story is that there's not really an end. It's just like time passed and it became less and less practical for us to move back to Michigan and harder and harder to walk away from what was becoming a better and better situation for our family in Massachusetts. And also practically like one of the reasons we were thinking about going back to Michigan is because we had such deep roots there with family.

But the other thing that happens is when you live in a place for a long time, you take root. And so we have beautiful friends who we like here, like you and others who we would not want to leave. Right. And so in some ways I still feel this profound ambivalence. A lot of Colette's family who are not living in Michigan or siblings have moved back to Michigan. So her whole family is there. There would be a way in which if we went back, our kids would be around cousins and aunts and uncles in a way that they can't be here. We would also be moving away from things that are really good for our kids.

So the ambivalence has not really gone away. Our decision about it has become clear, right? I'm no longer looking for jobs in Michigan every two months. I'm no longer thinking about what churches might be open to taking on a new priest, as I was literally like every few months, seven or eight years ago. But there still is like this strong pull. There still is like a different life that I can imagine for us that feels real out there, but that we've chosen not to pursue.

And that, there's a pull of it. There's an attraction to it, even though it's something that we've turned away from. Matt, I love this story. I especially love the ending because I'm so glad you guys are here. Selfishly, you guys are my family here, right? That is one of the interesting things, because you guys being here is part of what makes it easier for me to be here, right? Like these things do like have their own gravitational pull. That's really interesting.

But also, do you know this idea that Cheryl Strayed has of ghost ships? No. That you're on a dock and you get on a ship and it's really hard to pick which ship you want to get on because one is going one place that you really want to go and the other is going another place you really want to go. And you get on one and then at the last second on the horizon, you like see the other ship and you can just perfectly imagine your life on that ship and how great it is. And that doesn't mean you regret your choice.

But, like, you just have to send that ship sort of off into the horizon. And, you know, she talks about it as a position of grief, you know, sending off your ghost ship. Yeah, it is. I haven't heard that before. It's great. It's also a position of privilege. Like, I feel like I'm really lucky that I could imagine a whole other life where I could reasonably uproot a family and go have...

Right.

It's never rough sailing. You're never getting seasick on that. Right. I don't imagine all the stresses that we would have if we were living in Michigan. I only imagine when I imagine all the good things. And so especially when, because life is hard, when life gets hard here, I'm like, oh, I bet in that other life there would be nothing hard. That's also like how the ambivalence plays in. Because you feel attracted and you feel the good of two things. When the thing you've chosen feels bad, all you see is the good of the other thing. And that's ambivalence.

Yeah, whenever I'm home in Los Angeles, if something bad happens, I'm like, oh, good. It's back here, too. It's like 120 degrees, and I'm like, yeah, I wouldn't want to live like this. That's fine. Let's go back to Massachusetts. That's right. Well, Matt, I know that you are not ambivalent about the 30-second recap. You're just a big baby about it. That is your only feeling about the 30-second recap. I feel like I feel two strong things about it.

A 30-second recap. So maybe it's ambivalent. It's just one of them is not good. They're both bad. What are the two things? One, you don't like to do it. And two, you're mad at it? Yes. Right? Like I think it's both anxiety and dislike. Got it. So in the classic etymological definition, that's two strong things. They're just not intention. But I love when you do it. Okay. There it is. You did it. Can I count you in? Please do. Three, two, one, go.

So Harry's like, Dumbledore, I got the memory from Slughorn. And Dumbledore's like, well, let's jump in. And they go into this memory and Slughorn is like, here is how to be evil, Voldemort. And Voldemort is like, cool, I'm going to murder seven people. And then Harry and Dumbledore talk about

it and Dumbledore is like, it's probably these six objects and I don't think he has a Gryffindor one and here's some strategy. And Harry, you're going to have to die, but you get to choose if you want to die, but you're going to have to die. But don't worry, it's a choice. You're going to get to choose, but you have to die. That's great. Thank you. That's great. I feel like I saw ambivalence in your recap that I didn't see reading the chapter. I'm very grateful for it.

Oh, you're welcome. I really did. Like in the discussion at the end, we'll get into the theme conversation. But in the discussion at the end where he's like, you have to choose, but you don't have to, but you have to, but you don't have. Yeah, that was interesting. I find it very annoying double speak. I could tell. I could tell from the way you told that story. Matt, are you ready? Yes. No. Good. Last time, no.

Do it anyway. On your mark, get set, go. So Harry's got the memory and he goes to go to his room and the fact is like, you can't come in. He's like, okay, fine. I'll go see Dumbledore. And she's like, oh, you can't come in. But it's too late. He goes to Dumbledore and he talks to Dumbledore. He says, I have the memory. And Dumbledore's like, great, let's go see the memory. And they see the memory. And it really seems like Dumbledore did not get a lot of extra information that he didn't already have. Like everything he thought happened happened. And he actually doesn't even know how many horcruxes there are now. So it doesn't matter that he said seven. But oh my gosh, seven. Seven murders? That's too many. Or whatever, six.

And then, or seven. And then there's the end discussion that you covered and it's weird. We were a team. More than ever, we were a team. Because in this one, I actually said, you said all this stuff, I don't need to cover it. It's not a competition. So Vanessa, one place that I saw ambivalence in this chapter is just around the figure of Slughorn generally.

Yes. Right. Harry has been trying to get this information out of Slughorn for weeks and weeks and weeks. Right. And in the last chapter, he used a Felix Felicis to like get some luck and also to get Slughorn a little bit tipsy, maybe more than tipsy and get this memory out of him.

And I think we see there just a fundamental basic ambivalence to Slughorn. I think we can point to some more specific examples in this chapter. But generally as a character, or at least this moment in Slughorn's character development, we see a basic ambivalence, right? Which is Slughorn wants to be two things and he can't be both at the same time, right? He wants to be the good guy who people need to get things done. Yep. Right? We've heard stories since the beginning that he really likes making connections with...

students who are from powerful wizarding families, because it makes him feel like he is facilitating those connections one to another and that he is helping them get ahead in the world, but also because once they get ahead in the world then he has connections to them. And so he can use those names to drop when new students come, right? He likes being the guy who everyone feels like they need to accomplish something. So on the one hand, him having the memory that Dumbledore needs to fight this war

That's a great thing. He wants that, right? He wants to be that guy. Like in some ways, this is the ideal situation for Slughorn because he has something that powerful people need and he can give it to them.

The problem is he also doesn't want to die. He wants to be safe and secure. He likes his comforts. And he doesn't actually want to risk his own safety in any serious way. And he knows that sharing this memory, or he believes that sharing this memory is going to make him vulnerable to the Death Eaters. I mean, he's already worried about this, even teaching at Hogwarts. So there's two things he really wants. He wants to be the one who gets things done or that others depend upon to get things done, the one who has the information.

And he also wants to not put himself at risk. And this is why he's torn. And this is why he runs away from Harry every time Harry comes to talk to him about this, because he can't resolve the two things. So that's like a general kind of description of his character as ambivalent, but there are specific versions of it in this chapter, which I think are interesting, right? So in the memory, we have this memory that was revealed to Dumbledore and Harry, and it's the same one we saw before, except, you know, the missing parts are filled in. Tom Riddle,

Also known as Voldemort, asks Slughorn, "Hey, tell me about Horcruxes." And this time we hear Slughorn's response and Slughorn is kind of like, "Well, what do you want to know about Horcruxes? I can't remember the exact language." But Slughorn says, "Oh, obviously this must be for a Defense Against the Dark Arts project." And Harry can tell looking at Slughorn that Slughorn doesn't believe it. He knows it's not a project. He knows it's just Riddle's curiosity.

He worries maybe that it might be more than curiosity. And that worry grows during this exchange, right? But this is a particular version of this ambivalence where like you can see Slughorn both wanting to do the right thing, which is I should not tell the student about Horcruxes. And also wanting to be the guy who can tell him about Horcruxes, right? Like I like that you're coming to me. I like that you know that I would be the one.

if anybody here could tell you that I'm the one. I also know that you're probably going to be Minister of Magic someday. And I will like that when you are Minister of Magic, you will look back fondly upon your teacher at Hogwarts who could get things done for you. So on the one hand, oh, I shouldn't be telling students about this because I actually want to be good in the sense of like protect the Wizarding World. And oh, on the other hand, I actually want to be helpful to power. I want both things.

And you can see him trying to have it both ways a little bit here, which is like, okay, this is actually just about school. It's not actually because you want power. I can tell you this. It's safe. He's like, the way he's packaging it is almost a salve to his own conscience because he wants to have it both ways. And as we move through this conversation, and as you said in your 30-second recap, Tom Riddle's like, how about seven murders? Like, he's like, oh, no. Like, maybe this went too far. Maybe I said too much.

And maybe he's feeling less ambivalent by the end, but it's too late. Yeah, he definitely regressed it just by the end of this conversation. He's like, oops, made the wrong choice. Want to be on that other ship. Too late. That other one's too far. I think that he wants to be the hero no matter what.

In every room. And so because he wants to be the hero to whatever room he's in, it means that no matter what audience he has, he is serving that audience.

And so he wants good people to think he's the hero and he wants evil people to think he's the hero. But then he's smart enough to know that history is going to make clear that sometimes being the one to disappoint a room is actually what makes you heroic.

Yeah. And something that they talk about, like in leadership books, leadership is about disappointing people at a rate that they can stand. And so I think that part of what he's feeling is, oh, no, wanting to be a hero has actually made me a bad leader. Yeah. It's ambivalence and it's just like bad strategy. Yeah. Wanting to be the hero has made him the villain, right? Exactly. Maybe. I mean, again, as I said before, like, I'm not sure how much Slughorn actually helps Voldemort.

I'm not sure how much this memory actually helps Dumbledore, but whatever. But even if it doesn't, I'm like picturing curling, right? Like you don't want to be the person who is making the ice smooth right in front of the thing so it can go further, right? Even if you're not necessarily doing...

a ton of work, you don't want to be making the road easier for evil. And he's at minimum doing that. He's at minimum being like, let me get these pebbles out of your way. Yeah, that's right. Yeah. And it's just interesting how that ambivalence is mirrored now in his reluctance to give the memory. Yeah.

I'm always curious about this in real life, too, when I'm like, come on, you know that what's going to make you look like the good guy in the long run is this other thing. Why are you choosing to be short sighted in this moment? It always baffles me. I'm like, how do you not see that like two months from now, let alone, you know, for eternity, the world is going to see you as better if you shoot yourself in the foot.

in any number of ways, right? Yeah. This week's episode of Harry Potter and the Sacred Text is brought to you by HelloFresh. HelloFresh is where you get farm fresh, pre-portioned ingredients and seasonal recipes delivered right to your doorstep. I don't know about you, but I get tired of just figuring out what's for dinner night after

night, especially on the busy weekdays. The kids are here. They have homework. I have work to do. And I look at my fridge and I'm just like, I don't know. There are a million things I could make. And I'm just doing math in my head. But it's easy to find time to eat well with 50 wholesome, hassle-free meals to choose from each week delivered to your door with HelloFresh. It takes all of the guesswork and planning out of it.

Their lineup of prep and bake meals come together with minimal mess and only five minutes of prep, so your oven does most of the work and not you. Get up to 10 free meals and a free high-protein item for life at HelloFresh.com slash Harry Potter 10 FML.

FM for free meal. One item per box with active subscription. Free meals applied as discount on first box. New subscribers only. Varies by plan. That's up to 10 free HelloFresh meals. Just go to HelloFresh.com slash Harry Potter 10 FM. HelloFresh, America's number one meal kit. They say opposites attract.

That's why the Sleep Number Smart Bed is the best bed for couples. You can choose what's right for you whenever you like. You like a bed that feels firm but they want soft? Sleep Number does that. You want to sleep cooler while they want to feel warm? Sleep Number does that too.

Why choose a Sleep Number smart bed? So you can choose your ideal comfort on either side. And now save 50% off on the new Sleep Number limited edition smart bed. Limited time exclusively at a Sleep Number store near you. See store or sleepnumber.com for details.

Ryan Reynolds here from Mint Mobile. I don't know if you knew this, but anyone can get the same premium wireless for $15 a month plan that I've been enjoying. It's not just for celebrities. So do like I did and have one of your assistant's assistants switch you to Mint Mobile today.

I'm told it's super easy to do at mintmobile.com slash switch.

Want your sales team to spend more time selling? Nuno, Chief Information Officer at Valve, reduced his team's manual work by 60% with Monday CRM. His words, not ours. Since we know how precious your time is, we'll make this ad 60% shorter. Just enough time to find Monday CRM online while enjoying this moment of calm.

Whereas Matt, like in exact opposition to the slughorn ambivalence, we have in the same scene Voldemort. And I do think that this is actually helpful for our understanding of ambivalence, which is a complete lack of ambivalence. I think horcruxes are designed...

that the magic of it is ambivalence. The magic of it is in order to make a horcrux, in order to have a better chance at not dying, you have to take life. And it is a

big deal and a big sacrifice and a moral sacrifice. You have to break your own soul. Right. To get something you want, you have to do something you don't want. Yeah. And that is the magic of the horcrux by design. And Voldemort is just like, win-win, baby. I get to get some people out of my way who I want to be out of my way, and I get a horcrux?

Well, you're telling me if I kill them, I also split my soul? Part of me wants to be like, I don't think this magic should work for Voldemort. And I guess to some extent it doesn't in the long run. Yeah. Right?

ambivalence. The magic is the sacrifice. That is how this is designed. And the fact that he doesn't have any ambivalence about it, I do think is what ends up being his demise, right? Because he doesn't see that the sacrifice is an important part. And so Harry making a sacrifice is the thing that allows Harry to beat Voldemort. And so the magic doesn't work.

but i feel like this is a strange bedfellows situation except it's strange that he's in bed with himself he's like this is supposed to break me apart but i feel great i feel great so yeah like there is no downside for voldemort at least not in the short term the way he can see he's like these are two things i love what could go wrong

And, you know, there's a lot of Dumbledore talking. We're going to talk about Dumbledore's talk in a minute. But there's a lot of Dumbledore talking about what Voldemort doesn't see, what Voldemort is losing, the good thing that he is sacrificing that he doesn't realize is sacrificing, which is the unity of his soul, which is the capacity to love all these things.

Those are the things that he's sacrificing. But Voldemort can't see that until it's too late. And that's why he makes himself vulnerable to those things in a way that, you know, Harry's going to be impatient with when we talk about it in a few minutes. I did want to say one more thing about the Horcrux because I think that you're reading the Horcrux is really, really great. This idea that like the magic is ambivalent, like it costs something. You can't get everything you want. You can't have your cake and eat it too. To get something, you got to give something up. And the idea that to sacrifice

achieve some kind of qualified and I think uncomfortable immortality, you have to like impose death upon somebody else. That's a really like interesting ambivalent kind of magic, as you said. I think it's also just this great metaphor. Occasionally we talk about wizarding supremacy on this podcast and the ways that it can help us think about other forms of supremacy or supremacist thought in muggle culture. But one of the things that's really interesting about it is like

The horcrux is really a good metaphor or image for the way supremacist thought works, which is the supremacist thinker thinks like, what I actually want is to be powerful. What I want is to be invulnerable.

That's not actually true of how humans are. We can't be supremely powerful and we all are vulnerable. But because I want it so much and can't deal with the fact of my own vulnerability, what I do is I put those who are weaker or I force others to be weaker so they can become subservient to my power so I can project my own weakness onto them, project my own vulnerability onto them.

I've spoken about this before, but one person who writes about this really beautifully is the American thinker and novelist James Baldwin in The Fire Next Time. But it has a longer philosophical legacy than that. And I think it's a good diagnosis of like,

the kind of the secret rationale or like the hidden kind of intuitive, emotional, affective impulse behind supremacist thought, which is like, oh, I don't like that I have to die. I don't like that I have to be weak. I don't like that I can't have all the power. So I'm going to try to structure the world so it feels like I do or so that I actually do in some cases and at the expense of others, which is exactly how the Horcrux works. Like I only get to have it or get to have the feeling of it if I impose this death upon others.

But I think in the same way, it also instills a kind of basic weakness and fragility in the person who takes it up or in the institution that takes it up. But that fragility is one that is under layers and layers and levels of real power that have to be struggled against as these books show. A domestic version of this is, I don't remember the specifics, but...

I did something wrong as a kid and my younger brother got blamed for it. And I was like, not only did I not get in trouble, but Jonathan got into trouble. Win, win. Right? Like, I got to do something bad, get away with it. And I now get to watch him suffer. Right? Like, which is like a supremacist sibling dynamic. Yeah, that is.

But in the long run, if I had kept behaving that way, I think it would have harmed our sibling relationship. And now, you know, I'm 42 and he's 39 and I don't think like that anymore. And we get along fine. Right. Like it is going to cost you something if you are just gathering power off of somebody else's back. Right. It costs relationship. Yeah.

Matt, the really big ambivalence in this chapter is this conversation between Harry and Dumbledore. And what frustrates me about this conversation is that Harry feels ambivalent about the fact that he has to kill Voldemort, right? Going into this chapter, he has been told that he's going to have to kill Voldemort. And he's like, I don't want to. I don't want to have to be the one to do this.

And what Dumbledore is trying to do in this really frustrating conversation is take away Harry's ambivalence. And he's trying to take away Harry's ambivalence by manipulating Harry. This feels like a really toxic coach football pep talk. Where like, it's not just that your fans want you to beat them. You want to murder them, right? Like,

It is trying to get to something elemental about Harry. Dumbledore is like, no, this isn't ambivalent for you. You actually want Voldemort to die. You do, right? He killed Sirius. He killed your parents. Don't you want him to die? And Harry's like, yeah, I guess I do want him to die. And he's like, great, now go kill him. But also, this is complicated, Harry. And so Dumbledore is performing ambivalence while trying to convince Harry to not be ambivalent about something that he should feel

Yeah. I mean, just logically, he's trying to say it's both because the prophecy said that you're going to and also has nothing to do with the prophecy saying you're going to write the prophecy, said it and it made it come true. But it's not because of the prophecy. But therefore, you have to follow the prophecy, even though the prophecy isn't the reason you're doing it.

You have to do it. I mean, if we're being slightly more generous, I think your reading's right. I don't feel super inclined to be generous to Dumbledore, but if one were going to be right now, one would say that just like practically speaking, in terms of strategy, I think he thinks that Harry will probably be more successful in this endeavor if he feels like it's a choice.

And so he's trying to persuade him, you still have agency. This is still something you want. You're not just being thrust into this against your will. You want this and that's the part you should lean into, not the part that you have to do it. But also, by the way, you kind of have to do it. Right? Like there's no avoiding it. But also it doesn't matter that there's no avoiding it because even if you could avoid it, you wouldn't.

So it doesn't have anything to do with it. It's just what you want, but also you have to. Right? Like that's the two things. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Whereas exploring an ambivalence would be like, Harry, you don't have to do this. Yep. Like this is a choice. You can walk away. Other people can hunt horcruxes. Other people can kill Voldemort. Right? Like Voldemort is obsessed with you. Go hide. Right? Like I've got some friends in Kansas. Like they're

are other options, even other strategic options. And Dumbledore does not for those. Yeah. I think that's right. It seems like Dumbledore believes the prophecy. He doesn't actually believe, right? Like, it doesn't seem like he spends a lot of energy coming up with a different plan, right? Like, I'm a really powerful wizard. I'm Dumbledore. We know lots of powerful wizards. Maybe we could build some other system. Yeah. And it's because Dumbledore

is so sure that his way is the right way that he doesn't make way for other people's ambivalence. And we talk about sacredness as being generative and expansive and is like constantly growing our sense of the world and profanity, right? The profane being limiting and,

And when you have closed all other options, things can become profane. And I feel like Dumbledore has just become single-minded in this. And so rather than having Harry truly consenting to this and expanding what this can mean, Dumbledore has created a situation in which, yeah, Harry is just like either a murderer or a lamb. And I hate it. Yeah.

Yeah, I agree. I think it's, I mean, we talk again and again about how Dumbledore kind of falls short of really taking care of Harry because he needs Harry to be the hero. And this is just another example. Matt, today we are going to do the sacred reading practice of Florilegia. This is where you and I each pick a sentence that sparkled up at us to the chapter and we put them in conversation with one another. What sentence did you pick? So I pick a sentence that comes from the memory when Slughorn is talking to

Tom Riddle, and this is after Tom asks about horcruxes, and we notice some of Slughorn's ambivalence, and then he kind of talks himself out of it by saying, wizards of a certain caliber have always been drawn to that aspect of magic. So this is him like kind of rationalizing why Tom's asking. I actually think this is probably not true. He doesn't get this question a lot.

Right. We have not seen this question asked. He's been teaching for a while. That's right. And this is the first time he's been asked. But I think what he is saying is, and maybe it like gives a little window into his own psychology, which is that like, it's a question of power. Powerful wizards want to know how powerful they are. And that's what Tom's asking. And it's a little bit also what Slughorn is so concerned about. He's always trying to get closer to power.

to try to have like a relationship to power. So Slughorn might not be drawn to creating horcruxes, but he actually is drawn to being the kind of person who would tell the future Minister of Magic about horcruxes. Like he's also drawn to power and therefore to having this kind of powerful information.

the moment that I find Slughorn most relatable. I am so good at rationalizing things. Yeah. I'm like, where is my safe and what's the combination? You probably want to know how secure I keep things. That's nice of you. Like, I just, I'm excellent at this exact skill that we see him engaging in here. So good job, Slughorn. What's your sentence, Vanessa? My

My sentence is just like very on the nose for what bothers me about this chapter. It is Harry's frame of mind at the end of this conversation with Dumbledore. And Harry says to himself, it was, he thought, the difference between being dragged into the arena to face a battle to death and walking into the arena with your head held high.

And the next sentence is like, some people would say that there was little to choose between the two, but Dumbledore knew, and so does Harry with a brush of pride, and so did my parents, that there's all the difference in the world. And I would say there's like,

a difference of degree, not of kind in that. And that this is like a false sense of agency. I don't know, this whole conversation just feels like creepy grooming to me of like, what do we want? And when do we want it? Right? Like it feels just very leading and

And this is Harry's and Dumbledore's goal becoming the same. Yeah. And their strategy becoming the same. And I'm very skeptical of that. Yeah. I mean, I think there is a difference between like being dragged into a fight to the death and walking in with your head held high or even like deciding that you want to do it. But there's not that big a difference between being dragged in and then being convinced that

Right. That you have your head held high. You're being dragged in, not physically. Right. Like being persuaded or cajoled into doing it and then thinking you should hold your head high even though you're not convinced. Like that's, then the difference is not as big. And the energy that Dumbledore is putting into convincing Harry means that he's kind of psychologically dragging him. Right. There is a difference and then there's not. Because at the end of the day, you're fighting. Yeah. To the death, right? Yeah. And like maybe there's a difference of like if you were dragged in.

you're like more out of breath when the other person gets the first punch, whatever. But like at the end of the day, you're in a flipping arena that you didn't want to be in fighting a fight. You don't want to fight either way. This is like gladiatorial. So there's a difference and there's not. I think that's right. So I love a sentence that makes me mad because righteous indignation is my favorite feeling. So I love the sentence. Let's now put them in conversation with one another.

Wizards of a certain caliber have always been drawn to that aspect of magic. It was, he thought, the difference between being dragged into the arena to face a battle to the death and walking into the arena with your head held high. Ooh. I mean, this makes it sound like Dumbledore is using Jedi mind trick magic on Harry. Right? Like that the magic here is actually Dumbledore using magic

Harry's great respect for him and trust in him to try to convince Harry that he must do something that he is reluctant to do. And it's so ironic, like, that he's all talking about, like, love is the greatest power and I love you, Harry. But also, hey, go do this for me because you have to. Right? Although you don't have to. You just chose to. Yeah. Yeah. And by the end, as you say, Harry kind of believes it. Like, he can't explain to himself why he believes it, but he believes it. Yeah. Yeah. It...

It's kind of saying like wizards of a certain caliber always want to be manipulating children. Yeah. Right? It's like you give people enough power and they're going to want to control other people. Yeah. Bad vibes. Yeah, that's not great. Maybe it will be better if we flip them around. Would you like to do that, Vanessa? Yeah, let's see. Maybe it's less gloomy, creepy Catholic church vibes the other way around.

It was, he thought, the difference between being dragged into the arena to face a battle to the death and walking into the arena with your head held high. Wizards of a certain caliber have always been drawn to that aspect of magic.

sound better it's like wizards of a certain caliber are like drawn to having their heads held high and having dignity in difficult situations like not being dragged into things not letting your beloved and respected headmaster psychologically drag you into something but actually doing it with a sense of ownership and dignity yeah it is better yeah and it makes dumbledore sound like a jerk but yeah we were already there but it does it again yes yeah it validates it

Good job, Florilegia. Great job, Florilegia. I know. Matt, thank you so much. This is your last Sacred Reading Practice as co-host. How did it feel? It felt great. This was a good one. I liked it. No ambivalence. Zero ambivalence. All good. This week's voicemail is from Marissa. Hi, Harry Potter and the Sacred Text team. My name is Marissa, and I just finished book five, where we are introduced to Toxic.

and her metamorphomagus powers for the first time. And I'm really struck by her incredible self-worth.

Through descriptions we get about Molly being dumpy, Floor is stunning, and Hermione is frizzy and butt-toothed. It is clear that the witch and wizard community is also tainted with patriarchal ideas of women and worth, like ours is. And yet Tonks is never described as particularly beautiful.

even though she has the power to change her appearance to be more floor-like if she wanted to. I am a 30-something mom in a certain city where beautifying elective procedures are very commonplace. And while there's no shame in others opting into those procedures, I have made a personal decision for my mental health's sake to not opt into those procedures.

And God, it's tempting. So a blessing to Tonks for knowing her worth beyond her appearance and using her power to make the kids laugh at the dinner table and changing her hair to reflect her mood instead of reflecting patriarchal ideals that inevitably surround her. Thank you for all you do and this amazing podcast.

Marissa, thank you for this voice memo. Tonks is one of my favorite characters for lots of reasons. I had never thought about this particular aspect of Tonks' character, but you describe it so well and relate it so beautifully to just everyday muggle experience in the world. And I think it's great, and it makes me love Tonks even more. You're right. Like, she could do anything with her abilities, including give in to the temptations to guide her appearance by a particular kind of male gaze. And instead, she cares about making kids laugh and cares about

being herself and communicating who she is to others. And that's really beautiful. And I'm so glad you saw it. I'm so glad you named it. I'm so glad you shared it with us. Thank you. Thanks, Marissa. Vanessa, it's time for blessings. Who are you blessing this week? I would like to bless Frank Bryce. He gets mentioned in this chapter, but not named. Dumbledore says that he believes that Voldemort turned Nagini into a horcrux.

when Voldemort killed, quote, an old muggle man. And there's just a moment in which someone stops being a person and starts being a statistic or a tool. And this is one of those moments for Frank. And so I just wanted to say, we remember you, Frank, and offer him a blessing. What about you, Matt? I'd like to bless Harry this week. I don't usually bless Harry. I mean, every once in a while I do, but I usually try to look for other characters who have less attention. Harry has so much attention to these books.

But I'm going to be stepping away for a while. And, yeah, Harry's a good kid. And he's got a bad deal. And the people who are meant to take care of him, even when their intentions are good, don't always take great care of him. And a lot of people who are supposed to take care of him have bad intentions. Well, he's mixed. And so he's got...

Yeah, he's got a rough deal, but he's really good in spite of it all. He's been that way for six and a half books, six and three quarters books, really. And I know he will be that way for the next book and a quarter. And I look forward to seeing him again when I come back to the podcast and chatting with you about Harry Potter. Next week's episode, Matt, is with special guest Courtney Brown. We are going to be reading chapter 24, Sectumsempra, through the theme of impulsivity.

Just a few reminders before we give our thanks. You can hear ad-free episodes on Apple Podcasts or through our Patreon at patreon.com slash Harry Potter Sacred Text. This was a Not Sorry production. We are a feminist production company, and we are sponsored by the Fetzer Institute. I'm the executive producer, and we are edited and produced by AJ Aramas. Our music is by Ivan Paizao and Nick Bull, and we are distributed by Acast.

Thanks this week to Marissa for their lovely voicemail, to Ariana Nettleman, to Julia Argi, to Nikki Zoltan, Courtney Brown, Casper Ter-Kyle, Anissa Ahmed, Danny Langley, Stephanie Paulsell. And a special, special thanks to all of you in the Harry Potter and the Sacred Text community for welcoming me into your community a few years ago and for being so warm and generous and so, so good. So very good. I'm glad to be part of this community and I'll be glad to return soon. Thanks, Matt. We'll miss you.

I find it very annoying double speak. I could tell. I could tell from the way you told that story and the 14 seconds you spent on that particular exchange. Yep. I looked down and I was like, how long do I get to do this? And I was like, 14 seconds. And I was like, I should have just done all 30 on this. Perfect.

Worried about what ingredients are hiding in your groceries? Let us take the guesswork out. We're Thrive Market, the online grocery store with the highest quality standards in the industry. We restrict 1,000 plus ingredients, so you can trust that you'll only find the best high-quality organic and sustainable brands all free of the junk.

With savings up to 30% off and fast carbon neutral shipping, you get top trusted groceries at your door and you can stop worrying about what your kids get their hands on. Start shopping at thrivemarket.com slash podcast for 30% off your first order and a free gift. ACAST powers the world's best podcasts. Here's a show that we recommend.

Hey, everybody. I'm Jen. I'm Jess. And we're Fat Mascara, the only beauty podcast you need in your life. We're beauty editors by day and podcasters by night. And we've got all the industry gossip for you, like insider product reviews and advice you're not going to find online. And the best part is interviews with the most sought-after experts in the beauty biz. Charlotte Tilbury. Jen Atkin. And makeup artist Sir John. That's just a taste of what you're going to get on the Fat Mascara podcast. So come hang with us. New episodes drop every Tuesday and Thursday.

Acast helps creators launch, grow, and monetize their podcasts everywhere. Acast.com.