Intimacy: The Bribe (Book 7, Chapter 11)
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This is Paige, the co-host of Giggly Squad. I use Uber Eats for everything, and I feel like people forget that you can truly order anything, especially living in New York City. It's why I love it. You can get Chinese food at any time of night, but it's not just for food. I order from CVS all the time. I'm always ordering from the grocery store. If a friend stops over, I have to order champagne. I'm always ordering from CVS.

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Chapter 11, The Bribe. If Creature could escape a lake full of infury, Harry was confident that the capture of Mundungus would take a few hours at most, and he prowled the house all morning in a state of high anticipation. However, Creature did not return that morning, or even that afternoon. I'm Vanessa Zoltan. And I'm Matt Potts. Matt's back on Harry Potter and the Sacred Text.

I know. Can I tell you something? This is how I know that I've been a part of this podcast for a long time because I've been away from the podcast for a long time because I'm looking at my edition of book seven and I'm thinking that I need to go into the other room and get my glasses because I can't read it. Because between the last time I did an episode and now the print got smaller. You probably got a magical edition. You promised the people that you would be back.

Even though you left us, and here you are keeping your promise. Here I am. It took you till chapter 11. Because this is my favorite chapter.

This expository chapter about the rise of fascism is your favorite. Exactly. I was like, please, can I come back for chapter 11, The Bribe? It's fascinating stuff. It is. Which leads me to our Every Flavored Bean. So this chapter is really about policies that cause a rise in fascism. And your family and I had an in-depth exploration into fascism the other night.

And we are going to talk about that as our Every Flavored Bean. Do you want to just tell everybody what we did briefly? We played my favorite board game, which is Secret Hitler. And we played it for the first time with my youngest child, Danny.

who is both incapable of lying and also incapable of believing that others would lie to him. It's a game like assassins, everyone. Yeah, right. It's like mafia or whatever, right? Yeah. And so lying is part of the game. Yes. So we are going to explore all of the elements of fascism that we were able to investigate by playing Secret Hitler. Yeah. We're also never playing Secret Hitler with Dani again. Yeah.

At least not until he's figured out how to lie. Yeah. So, Matt, you have a story this week. I actually recruited you to tell this story. I was like, Matt, I need you to come onto the podcast and tell the story. Our theme is intimacy. What story do you have for us? Yeah, and I chose the theme of intimacy because you asked me to tell the story and you said whatever theme you want to go with the story. Intimacy is kind of a euphemism in modern literature.

speech for sex, basically. And that's not what the story is about. But it's part of the reason I want to talk about it, because I feel like intimacy is really important and I don't want to reduce the physical intimacy or whatever. So our middle child, Sammy, recently changed their name to better represent their neutral gender. And we had the ceremony at our house about it. And you were there for that. And some other people were there for that. And some people were present on Zoom for that.

Which is one of the reasons I wanted to talk about intimacy because I felt like it was a very intimate occasion. I felt like we felt very close. But this was not like a straightforward thing for us necessarily. Sammy started identifying as non-binary a couple of years ago. And we've been honoring that and we've been glad to. And thankfully, they're

community, their family, their school is all very supportive. You know, given what's been going on in the country the last couple of months, they've been very stressed out about this. And, you know, thinking about updating IDs and so forth is not uncomplicated for them. And so they sometimes feel a little bit unsafe or insecure, but they do feel safe and secure around those of us who try to support them. And so we wanted to do this ceremony. We got their name changed officially and went to the ceremony.

But I have to be honest and just, you know, say this on the podcast. When they first came to me, I was reading to them before bedtime. And they said, Dad, I think I want to change my name. I was like, sure, bud. What do you want to change your name to? And they said, Sammy. And then something different for my middle name. And their middle name was Yukio, which is my uncle's name in Japan. And the name Yukio means happy boy. And...

I named them that because I love my uncle and because I wanted to honor that part of my family. And I'm going to confess that I did not react the way I wish I would have at the time. Right. Because when they said, hey, dad, I think I want to change my name. I said, but that's Uncle Yukio's name.

Because the first thing I thought was like, "Oh, it's about honoring family, right?" And then they didn't say much, but I could tell that that was the wrong response and I regretted it. And I was like, "That's okay, buddy. Yeah, of course we could change your name." There's lots of ways to honor Uncle Yukio and to remember him. And they chose the name Yuki, which is a gender neutral name in Japan and which honors Uncle Yukio just as much as Yukio would, right? And so obviously I did not react the way I would if I could do it again.

And so we came to this thing and Colette asked me at this party we had, this renaming party, if I would do a ceremony, lead a ceremony, because I'm the one that, you know, has a profession where I lead ceremonies a lot. So I was feeling kind of tender about it because I knew I had messed up. And I was worried that Sammy didn't think that I was on board as the way I ought to be or that Sammy thought I was like,

feeling like they were betraying some family remembrance or something. And also because, you know, a lot of the resources I use for my rituals come out of the Christian tradition. And I'm not sure Sam feels very comfortable with the Christian tradition because of how it has traditionally thought about gender. And so,

i was feeling uncomfortable at this and i talked to them about what we were going to do and they were okay with it and so in this moment at the party when we were all gathered around it was time for us to start the ceremony and i was feeling kind of nervous more nervous than i do that sunday morning or harvard commencement just because i was worried that that sam would not like it or wouldn't feel important or special to sam and we had folks on zoom who were watching in who family who could not travel to be at this party and all the friends that sammy trusts and love including you vanessa like gathered around

And we just kind of all like formed this tight little circle around Sam. And we did this ceremony where we called out all the people who have their names changed in the biblical tradition, which is like all the most important people, right? And we just said some prayers for them and everybody put their hands on Sam or in the person closest to them who is also touching Sam. And we just gave them

And it was so special and it was so meaningful. And I think the reason I wanted to talk about intimacy is because I was trying to think afterwards, like what made it feel that way? I heard from some folks who were thousands of miles away on Zoom and they also felt special and there were people who were not part of our immediate family.

friends of Sam's who were there who also felt it was very special. And it wasn't because the language was perfect. You know, I muffed a line and, you know, it wasn't because, you know what I mean? Like it was just something about this, a real kind of emotional closeness, which goes along with this kind of vulnerability. I think that the thing at the root of it was like, I was feeling very vulnerable towards Sam because I felt like I'd messed up and not done it right. And it was really important to do it right for them in that moment.

And I just wanted to show up and I was scared, but also really wanted to be there for Sam. And I think Sam was feeling that too. Sam does not like a lot of attention drawn toward them. And they were not sure how they felt about a bunch of people gathering around and touching them. Right. But they opened up and made themselves vulnerable to that. So there was something about this kind of mutual vulnerability that allowed us to get close to each other. All of us, even the people on Zoom, in a way that we didn't.

don't normally do even even though we're family even though we're close friends right and i think that's why i wanted to tell a story about intimacy because i think there is something about mutual vulnerability that really makes us able to get close to each other it also makes it scary because i was afraid i would hurt sam again right and i think maybe sam was scared that they were going to let me down or something again the way that they thought that i thought they did

At the beginning, but there was something about us just being willing to risk that and get close to each other that allowed us to get to this really intimate place. And so it ended up being, for me anyway, a really special ritual, a special ceremony. And I'm glad you asked me to tell the story about it. I mean, the reason I asked you to tell the story about it is because it was truly one of the most beautiful nights that I've ever witnessed.

And I do think part of that was the intimacy with which the people there knew Sammy. There was a lot of laughter, a lot of nervous laughter, a lot of acknowledging parts of Sammy that really reject sacredness, right? Like Sammy was making a lot of jokes up until the last moment. And yet there was just this really beautiful moment of like quiet stillness. But yeah, it was just a deeply touching thing to witness.

And then not to like exploit you and your family, but I also just really wanted to share with our listeners that like you can change rituals to suit, right? I think that one of the things that I hope that this podcast has done is helped people see that religion is supposed to work for us. We're not supposed to work for religion. And the way that you...

took the Hebrew Bible and the New Testament and was like, look, people are renaming themselves. And that is a beautiful, holy act. And people have been doing that forever. And taking something deeply traditional and letting it speak to this moment felt just politically really important to me too. And I wanted to make sure that our community heard the deep wisdom of what

you created with that ceremony. Yeah, I can't take credit for it either. There are trans priests and trans Christians who have developed rituals around this that I leaned really deeply into. And so I want to give credit to those folks who have already been sourcing this part of our tradition. And that's, you know, we adjusted it for my family. But when I started looking for how do I run a renaming ceremony, that's where I went first because those folks have been doing it and doing it so movingly already. And they were the ones who called my attention to the fact that like, oh my gosh, every important person in

The scripture, Hebrew Bible or New Testament has their name changed. They're transformed in some way. We are called to transformation and often that means changing our name. And the other thing is, like you said, I mean, you know, you call a Christian priest on your podcast, you're going to get this, Vanessa. As Jesus said, the Sabbath was made for people, not people for the Sabbath, right? Really? I'm quoting Jesus when I say that? Probably because he's Jewish. You're into Jewish thinkers. Yeah, obviously. Obviously. Yeah.

Well, thank you so much for letting me treat you like a story jukebox and be like, I'll pay you a quarter if you come on this podcast and tell us about this thing. A whole quarter? A whole quarter, Matt. So, Matt, I don't know if you know this about our podcast, but we do 30-second recaps where we recap the chapter in 30 seconds. Dear listeners, can I tell you that I had totally clouded this in my memory. Before we started recording...

I remembered all at once that a 30-second recap is part of this. Like, I filled out the episode doc. I did all the other things. I just completely ignored the fact that there would be a 30-second recap. And I panicked. And I don't... It's almost like I never did this podcast at all. What happened for the first two years of my two-and-a-half-year time with you was like, you know, where everything in the chapter would just fly out of my head as soon as I pushed record. Yeah.

That has happened. So... Well, I'm going to go first. I believe Harry shows up at some point in this chapter. Harry is definitely in this chapter. Look at you. You're doing great. Great. Can I count you in? Please count me in. Yes. Three, two, one.

Go! So they're waiting for Creature to come back with Mundungus, and Lupin shows up. And Lupin is like, I'm going to go on this adventure with you. And they're like, wait, what? And he's like, well, Tonks is pregnant. And Harry is like, you are abandoning your child. And Lupin leaves. And then finally Mundungus and Creature come back.

And Mundungus give the locket to Umbridge. And so they now have to go do that. And also we found out that they were hiding Ariana. And also there are all sorts of new policies like mudbloods. I hate that that's the term I used. And so I got distracted and couldn't finish the sentence. And that's how you ended it. Like that's your last word on chapter 11. I know.

But I don't want to hide from my mistakes. So let that. Don't worry. After this, the only thing anyone will remember is how badly I did. On your mark, get set, go. So the chapter starts and they're waiting for Mundungus to return or for Creech to bring Mundungus. And then Remus shows up and Remus is like, let me come with you. And they're like, I can't tell you why we're going. And he's like, please let me come. And they're like, because Tox is pregnant. And then there's a big fight.

And it's an intense fight. And then Remus leaves. And then Mundagus does show up with Creature. And they're like, how could you? And then they read some stuff in the newspaper about who brings the newspaper? Oh, Remus brings the newspaper. And they read some stuff about how Harry is suspected of something. And there's, oh, my gosh, time's almost up.

You did such a good job. I didn't. I forgot the whole thing about, there was a whole thing about Dumbledore and his family. Yeah. And I stopped at the very beginning, which was like, this is suspicious, this Harry Potter. Why was he at the top of the tower? One of the things that really struck me in this chapter was the incoherent way that Death Eaters and wizard supremacists describe muggle-born wizards.

Yes. Right. In order for the wizard supremacists, the fascists ideology to work, muggle born wizards must be both inferior. Yes. To actual wizards, quote unquote, actual wizards.

And also more powerful than actual wizards. So we have to get rid of them because they're inferior to us. And oh, by the way, they can steal your magic. Right? So they are worse than you and less than you. So it's okay to be cruel to them. Right.

And like, and systematically exclude them. And systematically exclude them. And we must do it because if we don't do it, they will come steal all our magic from us because they are so powerful and strong. Right? Yes. And this is, as you have said before, this is like fascism 101. Like if you want to demonize some other population, you have to convincingly and with a straight face say they are both less than you and stronger than you. Right. Like Mexican immigrants can steal all of our jobs. That's right. Right.

but also they're lazy. Exactly. And so we don't want them here. They have to be both things, right? And it's like, wait, what? I taught a class on the sacraments this year. The

The first class, we talked about how in medieval Europe, they would accuse the Jews of stealing the host and destroying it, right? And that's why they would have all this violence against Jews. And then they would tell stories about how when they tried to destroy the host, it refused to be destroyed. And so they were both so strong because they can take our host away from us, but they're also so weak because they can't destroy the host. Like it's one or the other.

In either case, you don't need to hurt anybody, right? It was just all, it was all this rationale, right? And that's what's going on in this chapter. As you said, this is like an exposition of how to make fascism work.

And I was thinking, I wanted to talk about that just because I think it's important. I think it's important for us to understand history. I think it's important for us to understand the present. The question is, does it help us understand intimacy? And I think that it might. The way I described intimacy before was at this kind of state of mutual vulnerability, right? Like this willingness to be vulnerable to the other. Now, that's possible at an interpersonal level, like in the living room of our home, right?

in a way that is not possible at the social level among large groups of people. But there is a way in which the rhetoric of vulnerability

is important to how fascism operates or how wizarding supremacy in this book operates right like we are it's an intimate enemy like these we are totally vulnerable to them because they're right next door they're part of our everyday lives they're so close they might steal what what's from us right but there's also refusal of vulnerability which is like we are so much stronger than them right so right if vulnerability is deeply caught up into intimacy then

Part of the way that the rhetoric of fascism works is by toying with people's expectations about how vulnerable they are and how intimate the quote-unquote enemy is. I mean, I just always think of how strange things look to aliens, right? Like if somebody is observing from above...

God, aliens, whoever. It must have looked so strange when people from Europe would go into people's homes in Africa, steal them in order to separate themselves from them and oppress them.

Right? Fascism is always, oppression always is about this like pull of intimacy and then this pushing away. Like bringing someone right up to your border or to your boundary or into your life in order to then separate yourself. And we're

We're constantly doing this. Yeah. I mean, we can even think about it in terms of parent-child relationships, right? Like this constant push and pull of like, you are separate from me, but also we are of each other. Yeah. I think that, yeah, there's something so deeply beautiful about intimacy and therefore there is something...

incredibly scary about intimacy and grotesque about it as well. I mean, the way you talk about like your example, both your examples of like kind of colonial enslavement and also, you know, the sort of Latinx immigrants to the United States now who do a lot of work, a lot of labor, like this idea of like we need you

But we reject the idea that we are needy. Right. And so and so we must push you away. We both demand intimacy from you, like the kind of need I depend upon you in these fundamental ways. But I refuse to be dependent. And so I reject you entirely. Like that really needs to have that kind of activism that hatred has to have it both ways.

Yeah. And the wealth of America is entirely built on exploiting the people who we say are exploiting us. Right. Right. Right. Right. And you see this so clearly in the fact that like Voldemort is muggle born. Right. Yeah. The more intimate you are with something, the more grotesque it can become.

And I mean, like, we see that in the most mundane ways, right? Like, Ron and Hermione start fighting in this chapter. They are more intimate than ever in this chapter. They are holding hands. Ron is saying, if they are going to come and start arresting muggle-born witches, I will pretend that you are my sister, right? Like, that you are a part of my family. You're not going to be able to stop it. There's more intimacy between them than ever. And then we also see this kind of just, like,

bickering that we know that we only do with the people who we're closest to. Like, stop playing with the lights! Stop reading that stupid book! And you don't talk like that to new friends. But this, like...

I am so close to you that I, like, want you to be my lover and also, like, literally a part of my family. Let us hold hands. And also, oh, my God, you're so annoying. Yeah. I think is a key part of intimacy. I think about that often. Like, how come I have less patience with –

The people who I love most. Yeah, for sure. People in the communities I serve or whatever, they can do all kinds of things to me. And I'm like, oh, I have to be patient. I have to be great. Yeah. And it's because I trust the other people, the people in my life to continue loving me, even if I don't live up to my own ideals sometimes, which is like the opposite reason. Like I should, because they love me that much. They deserve the best of me. Oh, man.

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this is Paige the co-host of giggly squad i use ubereats for everything and i feel like people forget that you can truly order anything especially living in new york city it's why i love it you can get chinese food at any time of night but it's not just for food i order from cvs all the time i'm always ordering from the grocery store if a friend stops over i have to order champagne

I also have this thing that whenever I travel, if I'm ever in a hotel room, I never feel like I'm missing something because I'll just...

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I think this might be a good point for us to transition to Remus, because I think Remus' role in this chapter is where a lot of my thinking about intimacy comes.

played out. As I said, I think it's easier to think about intimacy or it's more relatable to think about intimacy at the interpersonal level rather than the kind of social level with which we began this conversation. And that's most obvious with Remus here. So I think there's lots of things to talk about with Remus. Let's start with just like him showing up. Yeah. Right. Like when he shows up at Grim Old Place, Ron and Hermione are like, oh, good, Remus is here. And Harry's like, wait a minute. I know about

Polyjuice potion. Right, exactly. And then Remus just lists all the things that only a person who had deep, intimate knowledge of Harry or of Remus or whatever would know, right? And then...

Harry's like, okay, you can come in. Like, there's this idea of, like, we're inviting a person in, we're going to be vulnerable to them, we need to prove some trust, prove these things. And, like, it's because they have this prior intimacy that Remus is able to prove that he's to be trusted. But I think also, like, Harry and Remus hurt each other deeply in this chapter, and I think that's also because they have this prior intimacy. I mean, I would argue Remus hurts Harry in this chapter not by treating Harry in a certain way.

Remus hurts Harry by the way that Remus is treating Tonks. Yeah. Right? So Remus shows up and he shows up and is like, take me with you on your adventure, the three of you. Can the three become four? And Hermione is like, Remus. And then we sort of hear inside her head where she's like, oh, you used to be my teacher and now I'm calling you Remus. And she's like, Remus, like, what about Tonks? And he's like, Tonks is pregnant. I...

don't think that it's good for me as a werewolf to be married and a father to this baby. So I want to come with you. And Harry is hurt by the fact that Lupin wants to leave his kid, right? Lupin doesn't do anything to Harry, right?

But I think that when you love someone and you feel like they aren't being their best selves, you can literally start to take that personally, right? It is as if Lupin is saying, I would abandon you. Yeah. And that to me is evidence of intimacy. If someone who I don't know is leaving their kid because they're concerned about how they're going to impact their kid, I'd be like, that sounds complicated. Yeah. I think that's true. But I also think that like Remus probably shouldn't pull his wand at the end. Oh, fuck.

For sure. That's a bad button. When Harry calls him a coward, right? Yes. But I also think that's intimacy. Like if Pius Thickness, the new Minister of Magic, were to call Remus a coward, he'd be like, whatever. Right. But Harry, it's Harry who calls him a coward and that hurts more because it's intimate, right? Yes. And like our capacity to wound another person is part of where intimacy comes from. It's because we were vulnerable, because Harry's insult would mean so much more and cut so much deeper that in that moment, Remus can't,

can't control his impulse to pull out the wand and they get into this fight, right? Yeah. Again, the wounds just get deeper. Yeah, it's real bad. It's real bad. It's also an interesting moment because it reminds us that there is a difference between an adult skilled wizard's ability to draw a wand and fight versus Harry's. And so I think that it's a really interesting moment where Lupin's incredible skill shows us again how vulnerable Harry is, which shows us

how much he's going to have to rely on intimacy with Ron and Hermione in order to survive. Yeah. So, yeah, it's just, it's a really fraught and interesting moment. Speaking of trying to survive. Yes. Talk to us about Mundungus. Yes, so Mundungus. There's this really interesting moment in the chapter to me, Matt. So Creature's off trying to get Mundungus because they think that Mundungus has the locket and that the locket is a horcrux that they can destroy. Right.

And so Creature brings back Mundungus. Mundungus assumes that he is being held to account for the fact that he disapparated mid-fight with Voldemort, left Moody to be killed while the Order was rescuing Harry and bringing him from the Dursleys. And they're like, dude, super not. We knew that you were a coward. We are not surprised that you abandoned Moody. And

One of the things Mundungus says is like, I didn't agree to die for you. I don't know you. I have no intimacy here. And I was just thinking that there were two different kinds of people who...

there the night that to rescue Harry and they were either people who were deeply intimate with Harry like Ron and Hermione and one of the ways that I would define intimacy is not seeing our fates as separate if something happens to you it also happens to me and I think that that is a kind of intimacy and so Ron and Hermione are like our fates are tied you're gonna do this I'm gonna do this but then there were also

were also people there that night who had no intimacy with Harry, right? Kingsley Shacklebolt, like he doesn't have a relationship with Harry and he was still there. And so I was just trying to figure out, right, like Mundungus is saying two things here. He's saying, I didn't feel intimate enough with you to die for you. But he was also saying, I didn't have a sense of duty. What is the other thing that he was saying? Yeah, I mean, I think what you're saying is that like intimacy is one of the reasons that we might risk ourselves for another person.

But it's not the only reason why we might risk ourselves for another person. Like Kingsley, like maybe has heard that Harry's a good kid, but he's there because Harry represents this resistance to fascism, that survival of Harry. Right. And that's why he's willing to risk his life. And the giveaway here with Mundungus is he's like, the only reason I would risk anything for you is if you had some, if there was something in it for me. He kind of gives away the game, which is like the other reason that I might risk my life for you is not important to me. Right. Right.

Right? He's like, we're not intimates. Why would I risk my life for you? Right. Which is why he's willing to, like, sell all Sirius' stuff. And, right, it's all personal interest for him. Like, a very small-scale personal interest. Like, a few extra dollars. Right. I think that the thing that makes Mundungus who he is is that he's not intimate with anyone. Yes, absolutely. Right? He is only true to himself. Right? Like, he would have left anyone to die up there. Absolutely. Absolutely.

So Matt, we are doing the sacred Jewish practice of Havruta in which I will bring a question to you and offer an answer. And then you will offer another question. Okay. So I'm going to keep talking about Lupin. Okay. Lupin shows up in like deep despair, right? He's like,

I cannot be trusted around my wife and child. Like either my kid is going to be born part werewolf, in which case the last thing that he needs is a reminder of who I am, or my child is going to not be born part werewolf and we'll have to deal with the shame of my identity. This is obviously like a man in crisis and like a spiral of self-loathing. And Harry's response is to yell. And I,

I can relate to that, right? When someone who I know is like really not living up to who I think they should be, I can get angry, right? When my dog is eating mud, even though she knows she's not supposed to, I'm like, you know better. And so I understand Harry's response. And yet I do think it's a really big reaction, right?

And so my question is, why does Harry have this big reaction? And my answer is in the fact that both of them bring up James as part of this. I think that Harry throughout all seven books is trying to figure out who James, who his father was. And he...

especially in this room they are in the kitchen they are in the room where Harry asked Lupin to remind him who James was right he was like was James actually a bully and Lupin was like no you know your father was complicated but was a good man and so Harry knows what it feels like to not have a father and so the idea that someone would choose to not be around for their kid is

is just so deeply and personally offensive to him. And I think that Harry's reaction is like, you are forgetting your best friend. You are forgetting that part of what you were supposed to live for is vindicating what my dad died for. It is intimacy, right? And it's this, you are not seeing the ways that you are actually erasing my dad, right?

And that is my answer to my question of why Harry has this deeply not compassionate response to something that is obviously not about him. Yeah. That's a good answer. Thank you. I am persuaded by it. I think it's absolutely right. I'm going to add to it. That's, ugh, you're going to do Havruta? I'm going to do Havruta. It also has to do with James just because Harry's searching for a dad. He's been searching for a dad through all the books. Yeah.

Sirius came closest to that, you know, and now Sirius is gone and Remus is not. But Remus can't help but being folded into that role because he's Moony, because these three were inseparable, because now Sirius is gone. He's the only one left of this trio. And also he has served this role for him at school. Like he was an intimate, a close teacher who he trusted. Right. I mean, if you look at the way Harry reacts, it's

that reads like the way teenagers react to their parents pretty much only. Right? Like that's the way... Oh my God, yes. Right? And I think it's because both...

you're the only dad figure I have and you're doing it again. You're abandoning me again. But he's projecting himself onto Remus's actual child, right? Right. That's his anger on behalf of the child, as you said, because Harry knows Remus is not his father, but he can't help but be angry on behalf of that child because there's a sense of abandonment again. And it's something about the tone of the response, which is like, oh, this is how teenagers react

fly off the handle to their parents all the time, right? It's that bigness has something to do with intimacy. Like he would not be big that way to a different professor, someone he wasn't already projecting some of this paternal relationship upon. And it's not there entirely. And that's why it gets convoluted and complicated in the ways you described. But I think that's part of it. Yeah. I love that answer that actually this proves their closeness.

Yeah. That Harry is absolutely reacting to him as a father figure. And that's why, as you said before, it's disappointing that, understandable, but disappointing that Remus doesn't respond the way a parent of a teenager should, which is like, okay, I got to absorb this because that's part of the bigness of adolescence. And I'm just going to try to not reflect that bigness back, right? Like Remus reflects it back and escalates. Yeah.

I guess my question is, I feel like I always want to turn to the wisdom of Dumbledore's actions. So my question is, should Remus be going with these three children? Yeah. I mean, and I want to separate the questions. Should Remus be leaving Tonks while pregnant because he believes that he should not be with her ever?

because he has let her down in some way. That's not my question. I think he should not be doing that. Right. But there's a world in which he might decide, even though I want to be with you, even though I should be with you, for some cause I need to be someplace else, right? Or even barring that, like maybe Dumbledore didn't know that

Tonks is going to get pregnant. Like, should there be a capable adult with these children? Like you said, there's a difference between adult magic and not yet graduated from high school magic. And it's proved by how quickly Remus overwhelms Harry in this scene.

Like, he's the one of the Order of the Phoenix who is closest to them, who is probably most trustworthy, who could do this and travel with them. You know, like, should he go with them? I gotta say, I know everything works out in the end. Kind of. Remus dies. Yes. I think. Well, yeah, you're right. I'm right. Remus dies. I mean, everything works out for the movement in the end. Sure. But I kind of feel like I kind of want.

especially because Remus is kind of like, you don't have to tell me what you're doing. I can just kind of run defense, right? Part of me is like, yeah, I have a capable wizard who's going to help defend us and not going to ask any questions. I think maybe Remus should go with them. I agree. I think part of having a mentor is...

Like asking yourself what would they do, right? And like taking that seriously. But also knowing potentially where their blind spots are. And Dumbledore's recurring blind spot is believing that you shouldn't tell people things. And so I think this can be a moment where Harry is like, we mostly agree with Dumbledore. We mostly want to hand ourselves over to the wisdom of Dumbledore because he had more context. He was wiser. He knew more.

And we know that this is the place where he messes up. He doesn't let a lot of people in on things. So maybe this is the place where we can question it. I know that you and I have this with our beloved mentor, Stephanie Paulsell, where we literally, like in a difficult moment in a classroom, we'll be like, what would Stephanie do? How would Stephanie handle this? And if we don't know what to do, try to step into what we think she would do. But then we also know that she is a weakness for us in thinking we're better than we are.

And so we're like, Stephanie thinks that I should be queen of the world. But that's where she has a little blind spot. And so let's not take that too seriously. You have to know where your mentor's wisdom stops. That's right. And also, I think maybe shows just at a purely like literary plot level. Like this also works to answer that question for us in a different way. Right. Like, yeah, Remus should go with them.

Yeah. If I'm writing this book, how do I get Remus to not go with them? Oh, they have to fight. And so he can't. Right? Because otherwise, obviously, that's also illustrative of just like how these big social public things also are always refracted through personal experiences.

Intimacies, right? Like, maybe Remus should go with him. Maybe you and I are both right. Maybe in a different version of the story, he does and he survives or dies sooner or whatever. But we don't know that because what happens is they have a fight about something else and are estranged. Yes, I think that it absolutely is effective as a, like, why adults aren't there. Yeah.

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This week's voicemail is from an anonymous listener. Hi Harry Potter and the Sacred Text team. This voicemail is about an older episode that I didn't quite have the tools to think through until recently. In the discussion of Book 4, Chapter 34, Matt talked about wanting to understand himself in relation to his Japanese ancestors.

and Vanessa thought that her Orthodox Jewish ancestors would be horrified by their descendant who was an atheist chaplain married to a German man. I related to this because, as a gay man raised in a fundamentalist Christian tradition, I come from generations of ancestors who were taught to deny my basic human dignity. However, I recently learned of a great uncle who never married and left his entire estate to a male friend.

I'll never know those details of my great uncle's life for sure, but statistically speaking, some of my ancestors must have fallen in a difficult position on the Kinsey scale. Likewise, I would venture to guess that one or two of Vanessa's ancestors may not have shared the same convictions of faith as others in their community. Matt, even if all of your Japanese ancestors did speak Japanese, I'm sure there were some who still felt misunderstood.

I'm sharing this now because I was introduced to the concept of chosen ancestors. Many of us are familiar with the concept of a chosen family, but chosen ancestors allows us to draw inspiration from the past on a deeply personal level. I wonder who our host's chosen ancestors might be. I'd like to conclude with two blessings. The first for Helga Hufflepuff. Helga not only created a chosen family for all the rest,

but as the founding mother of Hogwarts, offered herself as a chosen ancestor as well. Finally, a blessing to this community. May we each live into our future roles as chosen ancestors. Thank you all so much for the work that you do.

Thank you so much for this voice memo and this blessing. This was beautiful and lovely. I really appreciated it so much. And actually, since the last time you heard from me, and definitely since chapter 34, book four, I've actually been thinking about exactly the things that you talked about in your voice memo. I recently visited Japan, and on the flight back from Japan, you know, I have this very complicated relationship to my Japanese ancestry because I've

I think this is typical of a lot of Asian Americans, but I'm not sure how much I fit in and how much I don't fit into that ancestry. And as I was flying back, I watched the movie Brooklyn on the plane. I don't know if other folks have seen the movie Brooklyn, but it's a story of immigration. And at the end of it, like at the end of watch that movie, like on this plane ride back, I'm like weeping. It's about the story of a woman who leaves Ireland to go marry somebody in the States.

And at the end, part of her decision to leave is because she's leaving something behind, right? She's like, oh, this place is not for me. There's someplace else that's for me. And I was like, oh, my mom left Japan.

She left Japan because she was in love with my dad. Also because there are things about Japan that she was choosing against, just like you were saying, caller. If we get to choose what parts of the past we bring forward, what parts we name, what parts we claim, and also what parts we let go of. And I think it's really beautiful the way that you're describing how you're doing that with your relationship to your ancestors. And it's really, it's a great model for how all of us might think about the histories that we are in complicated relationships with.

Yeah, thank you so much for this really beautiful voicemail. Vanessa, who are you blessing this week? I want to bless Hermione. After the confrontation between Remus and Harry, Ron and Harry kind of start to turn on each other. And Hermione just says, we can't fight.

And I don't think that that is a great way to resolve conflict. Just being like fighting is not an option. But I think this instinct of like, we are going to be together for a long time here. And what we're about to embark on is really difficult. We're already in the middle of something difficult and we can't turn on each other is just a really wise instinct. And Hermione's got a lot going on and she's also playing referee in this moment. And, um,

I just think she's got a bigger picture in her head and I want to bless her for that. You talked about that also in terms of teenagers, right? Like those moments where you're like, I'm not going to get sucked in because I'm going to remember that we love each other. And it's not always sufficient, but it is a beautiful instinct. What about you, Matt? Who are you going to bless? I would like to bless Tonks.

Because Tonks is kind of a background character in this chapter. She operates as sort of like the reason why Remus is there, the reason why he's leaving. But I just imagine she is just in utter despair someplace. Yeah. Right? I mean, for every reason, like the person she loves most has just left. He doesn't seem like he's coming back. And she's pregnant with his child. And also the world's falling apart. And also fascism is rising. And everything is just, I just, she must be just...

odds with herself. And yeah, I can't imagine how difficult this must be for Tonk. So just blessings for her. Next week, Matt, we are reading Book 7, Chapter 12, Magic is Might Through the Theme of Trust with Caspar Turquille. Just a few reminders before we give our thanks. You can find ad-free episodes of this podcast on Apple Podcasts, and you can learn more about all of Not Sorry's programming at notsorryworks.com.

This has been a Not Sorry production, and Not Sorry Productions is a feminist production company. We are sponsored by the Fetzer Institute of Kalamazoo, Michigan. Our executive producer is Vanessa Zoltan. We are edited and produced by AJ Yaramaz. Our music is by Ivan Paizao and Nick Bull, and we are distributed by Acast. Thanks to our Minerva's Book Club patrons...

Avril, Amanda C., Amanda S., Amber, Amy, Ashley, Danny, Emil, Esther, Gregoire, Casey, Kelsey, Kriti, Kyle, Marina, Nadia, and Sita. Thanks also to the anonymous member of our community who left such a lovely voice memo this week. And thanks as always to Ariana Nettleman, Julia Argi, Nikki Zoltan, Courtney Brown, Kasper Takyle, Anissa Ahmed, Danny Langley, and of course, Stephanie Palso.

Episode with Matt. Chapter 11. Chapter 11. Do I read the quote? Who reads the quote? No, I read the quote, but I always forget. Oh, the 30 second recap. I forgot about the 30 second recap. I was so worried about the story. I forgot about the 30 second recap.

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