Let's Ask Taylor Swift: Cardigan
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Hi, everybody. Because we are in between seasons, we take two weeks off, but we released another episode of Let's Ask Taylor Swift this week that I think is really great. And so since there wasn't going to be anything in your feed anyway, we thought that we would put this episode of Let's Ask Taylor Swift here. It's on the song Cardigan. And if you like this episode, you will probably like our podcast, Let's Ask Taylor Swift.

So you can subscribe to that. And we hope that you enjoy this episode. And we'll talk to you in two weeks with Book 7, Chapter 1. I'm Daniel Schrader. And I'm Vanessa Zoltan. And this is Let's Ask Taylor Swift.

So today's episode, we're talking about the song Cardigan from Folklore. How do you feel about that song, Vanessa? Daniel, I never liked this song. Okay, good. This is a safe space. This is a safe space. I think that the music video put me off. I find it twee. I am excited to look at it closer in one of our Patreon looks at the music video because I think I just haven't paid much attention to it.

And then just not listening closely to the lyrics, this idea of like, when I feel like an old cardigan, I was just like, blah, like that's such an annoying metaphor. But listening closely to the lyrics for the last week, it's,

kind of blown away by how beautifully poetic this song is. And I did do a deep dive on the August Betty cardigan of it all. And I think it's brilliant. I think so much about this is so brilliant. And I'm excited to get into that.

But what about you? I totally agree. I wasn't really up on the whole love triangle scenario going on between the three characters in August and Betty and Cardigan. But having now heard all three of them and really digging into these lyrics, I

helped me understand the like poetry that Taylor is working with here and really respect it. And I think that like this album is such a shift for her in embracing her actual storytelling, like for lack of a better word, era, because so much of her work before this was so self-referential and autobiographical to an extent. Right. And so folk

Folklore is the album, right, that she announced and dropped within 24 hours, which I'm sure you'll get more into. But it is the first album where she was like, this is a fake world, right? Like, it's during COVID. She wants to spend time in a fake world. And so this love triangle is between these three characters, right?

James, Betty, and then we don't know the name of the third character. I will say a Vulture article that I read to prepare for today names the third character unnamed narrator of August, so Una, and I would like to use that for the episode today. So we have James, Betty, and Una. James and Betty are in a relationship and Una is the other woman. Yes. And each

each of the songs have their own perspective. And so Cardigan is from Betty's perspective. So Cardigan is the first song of this story that we get, and it is from the wronged party. It is from the woman in the relationship from Betty's point of view who got cheated on. And it

place kind of in New York. You assume that she's in her 20s and she's describing this relationship and you can't tell how far in the past it was if the relationship happened in her 20s in New York. And that is interesting because August and Betty take place in different sort of time frames and codings. But

But she is telling a story about how deep this love was and that she got cheated on. And it sort of ends with, and I knew you would come back to me. And it's a little unclear as to whether or not they get back together. Then August is from Una's point of view, the unnamed narrator of August. And it's the other woman getting a voice. And she...

really wounded and like she realizes that James was never hers to begin with. And then what I think is so brilliant about this is that Betty is the banger of the three. It is the poppiest of the three. It is the easiest to sing along to of the three. And if you don't know that they are intertwined, you are rooting for the narrator of Betty, right? You're like, yeah, man,

together with me. I messed up. I was only 17. I cheated on you, but I thought about you the whole time and I regret it. And now like really knowing these three songs, the fact that I've been singing along to Betty in such a heartfelt way for the last almost five years, man, I'm complicit in this. I'm complicit in like the...

sexism of kind of wanting to believe the guy and wanting to believe this romantic story of I cheated on you, but I didn't mean it and throwing away Una and just being like, she meant nothing. Whereas we know that actually like they did have a relationship. Yeah. And I just, I love that.

Taylor gives voice to the other woman. And I love the trick of the song from James's perspective being the most sing-alongable. Mm-hmm. Totally, because you get so into it, and yet you don't want to take him back when you actually know the story. You're like...

But there's something so appealing about that feeling of like, oh, we could just go back to this like great – because also what's really great about Betty – this is not an episode about Betty. But in comparison to these other two is that Betty is so reminiscent of –

early Taylor. Yes. Of like, she puts on a twang, we've got harmonica, it feels like we're going back to her first album style. Right. And so there's something so nostalgic about that feeling as well. And so you're kind of getting this like feeling of nostalgia for music of the past and also a relationship of the past that really kind of

make you want to root for James even if you don't want to root for James. And I just feel like the fact that it is the poppiest and most sing-alongable song on the whole album is Taylor saying to us,

God, we always want to root for the guy, right? Like the grooves in our brains and in our culture that make us want to believe Brad Pitt over Angelina Jolie, that make us constantly give a certain kind of guy the benefit of the doubt. It's just really brilliant and gave me just a new appreciation for people

And I also love that like the wronged party sort of gets her say first because I feel like often that's not the case, right? Often it's the betrayer who gets the say first. Yeah, it reminds me a lot of the musical The Last Five Years. Yes! One of the greatest musicals of all time. Yes. That opens on...

the heartbreak of the wronged party. It opens up on Kathy singing about the end of a relationship that you're about to get to witness the whole journey of. And at the beginning, Jamie gets all the poppy fun, like these songs are bangers. And you have Kathy over here just singing the saddest, most melancholy stuff. And it's a really, it's a great juxtaposition, that musical. And I think that it's kind of, Taylor's doing the same kind of thing here. And for those of you who don't know,

for those of you who don't know, this is like an off-Broadway sort of cult classic musical by Jason Robert Brown from 2001 that's about to go on Broadway for the first time. So anyway, this is not a, maybe we can do a Patreon perk where you and I talk about the last five years in conversation with Taylor Swift. But,

You know, and I mentioned this, this does have a music video. And so for our Patreon, you and I are going to be watching the Cardigan music video and then discussing it. So if you want to hear that, but also just if you want to support the show, we have a goal of going weekly and really starting this properly next season by going song by song on a weekly basis with Taylor Swift's first album. We need to hit

a thousand dollars a month in support in order to be able to afford to make that happen. So please consider supporting us on Patreon. You get bonus content like us talking about this

really odd to me music video. That I've never seen. Oh my God. It's kind of wild. So I'm excited to talk to you about it. So everybody, you can find out more about that by going to patreon.com slash let's ask Taylor Swift. All right. And on today's episode, Vanessa, we are discussing the song Cardigan in the context of the question, what do we forget as we age? I knew you.

Baby

But before we get into that question, I've got some liner notes for you. Amazing. Tell me things. Teach me. Okay. So as we know, this is the lead single off of Folklore, which came out July 24th, 2020. So only a few months into the pandemic lockdown. This is the first song that she co-wrote with Aaron Dessner, who produced a lot of Folklore and Evermore, and then also worked on her other two albums after that. And

The album's songwriting process was really interesting, the way that it's been described, because it basically consisted of

him sending her instrumental tracks that he had written and her listening to them and choosing like which ones really spoke to her and just writing lyrics about that. And according to Dessner in an interview with Vulture, he said that he sent the track for Cardigan, which he originally had titled Maple around 9 p.m. and by 2 a.m. that morning, Cardigan was finished. So

Jesus. Mm-hmm. But it seems like so much of Taylor's writing is done in that way, at least the ones we've discussed. It's like, I've got an idea. I got to hammer it out before it gets away from me. Yeah.

It's just really impressive because of how lyrical this song is and I think how deep some of the metaphors run. We'll get into it. But that is incredibly impressive to me. I would like to think that she has, and I think she does, but like notebooks of phrases that when she has these moments of inspiration, she can turn to. Because lyrics like, Peter losing Wendy, I knew you leaving like a father running like water. I don't know.

don't want to think that someone is capable of writing that between 9pm and 2am. That bothers me. That's too much talent for one person. I agree with you there. So another really interesting thing I've found while researching about this album and this song is when Taylor was talking with Paul McCartney for a feature in Rolling Stone, she said, I used to put all these parameters on myself, like, how will this song sound in a stadium? How will this song sound on radio?

If you take away all those parameters, what do you make? And I guess the answer is folklore.

And I just think that's so beautiful to realize like, oh, she for so long has had this mindset of like, how do I make this a big thing that can perform and sustain as opposed to really going back to like the roots of songwriting and being a singer songwriter and just being like, I need to tell a story in a song. And that's kind of what every song on this album is, is her just kind of

making things a lot smaller than she thought she needed to. Yeah. And yet so many of the songs from this album were staged so beautifully in eras. Yes. Yeah. I guess I should probably watch the eras movie at some point. I definitely will get around to it. You know, it's so great. I saw it with my kids twice in the theater. No regrets. Wow.

Another interesting thing about this album, I think, especially when it comes to like how Taylor likes to hide little Easter eggs and stuff, is that so many of her Easter eggs, I feel like before this album were about like winking at the audience, making like references to real life things or something. Whereas to me, these Easter eggs are so much more in conversation with each other. Yeah, they're literary. Yeah, the way that she talked about like,

One of the Easter eggs being that there is a love triangle in here that you need to find. And then people, after listening to all these songs, found them in August and Betty and Cardigan. That's like a really cool and interesting evolution of Easter egg hunting for me. And it feels like, oh, she's grown up. Yeah.

a little embarrassed about what I'm about to say, but it does feel a little bit about the way that we read like Shakespeare's sonnets or Emily Dickinson's poems where it's like, oh, she's talking about a bee here and she's talking about a bee there. And I wonder if the bee symbolizes the same thing, you know, and is referring to the same person, is referring to Mabel in the same way. Is this mistress and that mistress in Shakespeare's sonnets the same mistress? Yeah, it does feel like a maturation and it's

Yeah, an evolution into just a more literary form rather than confessional. And I love the confessional stuff. You know, I don't think one is better than the other. It's just it is a marked different phase for sure. Definitely. So what would you argue the vibe of the song is the main premise of the song is what's like the obvious thing that we should say?

I think that this is kind of the wistful memory of a failed relationship and all of the good and bad that came with that and how like it felt so good thinking about it, but also the thinking about it brings up those bad memories too. And having to take that good with the bad. That's kind of what I got from it. Yeah. How about you? Yeah. I mean, really similar, right? He,

made her feel so good, right? That's the refrain again and again is when I felt like an old cardigan under someone's bed, you put me on and said I was your favorite. Like when I felt discarded, you made me feel cherished. And it's remembering that and remembering how beautiful that was and then being like, and then you cheated on me again.

And the other thing that struck me, the other refrain is, and I knew, right? Like, I knew you. I knew you'd come back. I knew you'd beg, right? Like, she's also saying, I saw the signs all along. I knew we had something special. I knew that we were like essentially soulmates, that I could recognize your heartbeat in a busy park in New York, that our love was once in 20 lifetimes. Like, that's how great it was. But I

I knew all of that. And then I also kind of knew you would cheat. And then I kind of knew you'd come crawling back. It's this hindsight is 2020. But also, I think I knew all of that back then. So yeah, I think this wistfulness and gratitude and also some...

you know, like self-flagellation of like, I knew, I knew I should have seen it coming. Totally. Yeah. In that same interview with Taylor and Paul McCartney, she mentioned how she sometimes thinks of sadness as cozy. And that's really what I think this song is about is the coziness of that cardigan, but also all of the bad memories that are conjured while also feeling enveloped in the coziness. Yep. Yeah. Yeah.

I know that in my past relationships, whenever an ex sort of comes up in my head or in conversation, I get really excited when I have a positive memory about them. I'm like, oh, that's why I was with them, right? Like, oh, they did that great thing. They made me feel so loved, right? Like the way things end or just the fact that they end taints the way that we see our past relationships. And so...

This song, I think, is in part like, oh, there were beautiful things here. And of course, the more you remember that, the sadder you get that it ended. But I do think that there is often something comforting about remembering the good times. Definitely. If we only remember the bad times, we'd never get in another relationship. Right, right, right.

So what is your first take on this question that we have? What do we forget as we age? And I just want to say the reason that we chose this question for this song is because I think the most repeated line in the song is, when you are young, they assume you know nothing, right? And the song to some extent is saying like, no, you know a lot when you're young. And so that is why we're exploring this question. So what do you think? What do you think that Taylor is saying about

what we forget as we age. I think that Taylor is saying we forget how to feel as deeply, as immediately, and how much we can know somebody so quickly. The intensity and obsession that comes with

youth and love and like the naivete that's mixed into that and how useful that is. Like we get so jaded as we age and kind of have a lot more life experience, which is very useful in a lot of ways, but it also can stop us from throwing ourselves into something that would be a fantastic and maybe tumultuous experience that we need to have to grow. Yeah.

We know less and therefore we get to enjoy the mess more. When we get older, we tend to think of youthful indiscretions and like, oh, they're just being kids or, oh, they don't really know how the world works. But casting yourself back into that younger self is

Yeah. Yeah, I think that this song is arguing that...

when you're young and they assume you know nothing, you actually know everything that matters. And that as you get older, you need insurance and you need to save for retirement. But like, that's not the stuff that on your deathbed, you're going to be like, thank God I spent all that time, you know, talking to insurance companies, right? The things that you know to value when you're young are the things that are separated from

capitalism and patriarchy and all the things that become really active forces in our lives as we get older. And so I think that the song is arguing that when you're young, you're actually more in tune with your values. Yeah. And that it's like touching people and that it's care and that it's kindness and that it is knowing someone, deeply knowing someone that matters, that it's

staying up all night to write the one page yearbook entry with all of the private jokes. Like that's actually what matters more than a grade on a pop quiz. A hundred percent. When we're young, we can see the bigger picture in a way we can't when we're older because the bigger picture hasn't been fully painted in yet. Right. We don't have all these like expectations of like, oh, these are the

I have to do my taxes this year. Right. These kids aren't doing their taxes. No. They're just having young love and it's exhilarating. And I wish that I could experience that again. Yeah. And it's, I love this, you know, it's the opening bit, but I knew you dancing in your Levi's drunk under a streetlight. I knew you.

Hand under my sweatshirt, baby kiss it better. Like what I knew was you. I knew the person who I cherished. And I knew that what mattered was like the feeling of your hand under my sweatshirt and that we could actually make each other feel better. And that's what adults forget is that like those are actually the moments that matter, the dancing under the streetlight, polo.

holding someone closely. Those are the moments that you remember with your children. Those are the moments you remember with your lovers. Those are the moments you remember with your friends.

And, you know, and I do this all the time, like the kids will be playing and I'm like, we don't have time to play right now. We have to get you to school. Totally. And that's real. Like we have to get to school and I have to get to this meeting and I have people to support and, you know, but yeah, they know that like you can just kiss something and make it better when they're little.

a moment or a specific lyric that stood out to you or confused you or that you feel really drawn to? I think the one that really stuck out to me is the passage, but I knew you'd linger like a tattoo kiss. I knew you'd haunt all of my what-ifs. The smell of smoke would hang around this long because I knew everything when I was young. Yeah. But I knew you'd like a tattoo kiss. The smell of

I think that just like pierces straight to the heart of this song. It understands like the way that young love and young experiences are

etch themselves onto our very being. They become that thing that we can't forget or that we judge everything else against. And also in that same passage, talking about the smell of smoke and the lingering, I'm imagining the smell of that cardigan and the things that stick around and how scent is so tied to memory that it can draw us to a place or a person immediately. And so there is something about finding that like

piece of clothing or something that really conjures a person. I had the flu a few weeks ago and

I pulled out this blanket that my grandmother gave me before she passed away. That was the blanket she would always pull out to comfort me when I was sick. And I wrapped myself in it and it still had these like lingering bits of her smell on it. And so, of course, I was sobbing while having the flu. But it was this beautiful moment of like, ah, yes, this thing can transport me back to a place that I had forgotten and didn't know how to access until I put it on. And.

And that you knew it would, right? This I knew you, your grandma knew that it would when she gave it to you. You knew that it would when you kept it and when you pulled it out, right? Like when these things happen, they can overwhelm us, but it's also like, oh, I knew all along. Past me knew I would need this. Yes.

Yeah. Because I knew everything when I was young. I knew everything when I was young. Yeah. I love, I knew you'd linger like a tattoo kiss because it's, I knew you would linger because I tattooed you onto my body. Right. So like I made it happen and I knew it would happen. It's this combination of the material and the ephemeral throughout the song that is

So interesting. How about you? Were there any lyrics that brought this song into focus or that you want to get deeper into? Yeah, it's also it starts with I knew you. So it's I knew you tried to change the ending. Peter losing Wendy. I knew you leaving like a father running like water. Try to change the ending. Peter lose her own life.

And really, I think I just want to lift up how smart I think this is. This is, I think, the most direct allusion to the song Betty, right? She's saying, like, I knew you'd want to come back and beg for me back and try to change the ending. I think it implies that she doesn't take him back in Betty, right? Because Betty ends with, like, I'm showing up at your house and are you going to kiss me in front of all of your stupid friends? And it sounds like he tried but failed. So she...

hopefully said, my friends aren't stupid, you jerk. Get out of here. Bad apology, James. So I knew that you would try to change the ending because you were Peter and

Losing Wendy, right? So you were refusing to grow up and I was growing up and you just couldn't stand that I wanted to grow up while you didn't. And I knew you were leaving like a father, which implies this really sad thing of like,

Men will always leave you. Right. And implies that this character of Betty, Betty's dad potentially left. And that's why she knew James would leave and try to come back. Right. Yeah. This hint of a multigenerational. I saw my dad cheat and leave and come back and cheat and leave and come back. And I'm not doing that.

And running like water. And water runs because of gravity. It runs because it runs. It doesn't run with a purpose. Yeah. And it's propelled forward. It has to move. It has to move. And then it changes the shape of the world because of it moving. And we hear in August that...

this other person was kind of along for the ride maybe and that James was a little bit of an instigator even though James claims to not have been an instigator in Betty, you know? Mm-hmm. And what Betty Wright is saying here is like, looking back, just my whole life has taught me that people like you are like water and you're just going to keep running forever. Running through my fingers. Yeah. I can't hold on to you. I can't hold on to you. I love that it doesn't contradict what she says earlier about

which is, you know, your heartbeat on the high line once in 20 lifetimes. Like I knew that you were a once in 20 lifetimes love and I knew that you were going to leave like my dad did and

You are just going to run like water. Yeah. And also I think like the lyrics in that same section right before Peter losing Wendy is because I knew you stepping on the last train marked me like a blood stain that to me just she knew when it was over. And that she'd never get rid of him. The stain is never going to get out. It'll fade, but you can't get blood out of jeans. No, it's impossible. And so you'll always see that stain when you get out that cardigan. Yeah.

do you agree with her take that as we get older, we forget sort of everything that matters? I 100% agree. I have been thinking about this a lot recently. And just like the instances in my youth, when I just had such unabashed confidence, I wouldn't even necessarily say confidence, like, I'm great. But it was the

There was so much less care about like what others thought or what I couldn't do. And I feel like as I've grown up, I definitely there are like, oh, well, I can't do that because here's all the like practical reasons as we've talked about, like why this would be difficult to do. Whereas as a kid, as a teen, it's like, oh, we'll just do it. I can just do it. Yeah.

And I think that actually thinking about this song and this question, it's really interesting when like looking back at what Taylor said to Paul McCartney about when I didn't need to write this as like an anthem to fill a stadium, what could I do? And that's like kind of a return to youth in a way of like, oh, I can do anything. Yeah. The world is open to me. So, gosh, I just...

I wish I could go back to not having awareness. I mostly agree with you. Have you seen the film My Old Ass, the Aubrey Plaza movie that came out last year? I haven't, but you've recommended it to me recently, so I definitely will.

I love this movie. I don't believe in favorite movies. I believe in that being a tier. But I would say My Old Ass became in my top 1% tier just sort of instantly. I'm going to just like read a quote to you from the movie because I think it's asking a really similar question. So it's about an 18-year-old girl who meets her 39-year-old self on an acid trip and the two of them get to communicate.

And young Elliot says this to older Elliot. She says, if you weren't young and dumb, you'd never be brave enough to do anything. If you knew how shitty and unfair life would be, you would never leave your house. You would never enjoy spending time with someone because you'd just be thinking about the fact that they were going to die someday. But when you're young and dumb, you don't think about that. And that's what lets you actually live. So maybe being young and dumb isn't such a bad thing. Did you ever think about that? And then...

The last thing that the movie says, right, is young Elliot, you're right. I still do have two pieces of advice for you. I've only seen this movie once, but I think they're like, spend more time with mom because mom's great and wear your retainer, right? Like, and wear sunscreen is like the thing that I always think of. That's my answer. What we forget when we're older is that

the beauty is worth the pain. I think we become too keenly aware of the pain. Yeah. And we forget the joy of a puppy because we've lost a dog before and we know it's just going to hurt so flipping much. And so we need those youthful moments in order to make sure that we keep living and that don't let fear of pain stop us. But

the thing that we learn as we get older is that like, wear your retainer and your sunscreen because we've seen, you know, people need late orthodontia and that's expensive and get skin cancer. And so...

what you forget as you get older is that the beauty was worth the pain. Yeah. I loved the part of the quote that you just said about you'd never be brave enough to do anything. Yeah. That idea has been bouncing around in my brain a lot recently. I've just been thinking about like

The things that I was willing to do in high school and college because I just wanted to do them and experience them and make a fool of myself and not care. I care so much more now. And so I don't get to do any of that. I'm thinking specifically like one instance where I like was in college and

kind of took over and ran a production of a play that a classmate wrote and starred in it and directed it and made it all happen. And I wasn't even a part of the theater department or anything. It was just like, this is my thing and I'm doing it. And looking back on it, I can only imagine what all of my fellow students were thinking about this thing that I kind of forced into existence. Yeah. But also thinking about like,

The fact that I was willing to do that and didn't care how people would receive it or what they would think about it. And that's just such a different mindset than I have now in my 30s. And I wish I could re-embrace that naivete and that like, oh, I don't care. I just want to do the thing I want to do and be young and dumb again. I have a similar story and I'm trying to think what I knew then that I maybe forgot. In the fourth grade, I...

just got really mad the girls didn't have a softball team and weren't allowed on the baseball team. And I just filed a complaint and made a softball team happen. And it had to be fourth, fifth, and sixth grade because there wasn't enough funding. Right? Like, and I was, what I knew was like, that is unjust. That is just, like, simply unjust. And,

Now, I look back and I'm like, that PE coach, right? Like, it wasn't in his contract to coach a girls team. Like, he probably had to do that for free for a couple of years until it got put in the budget. This is actually because of inequity in public schools, like having to do with Title IX funding. It wasn't this like one sexist man. Right. And

And now knowing all of that, part of me is like, oh, I probably should have had a little perspective and been like, well, when would we be able to make sure that you got paid a living wage as a teacher for this extra work that I'm asking you to take on? But I think that the thing we forget is that injustice is urgent. Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah. Oh, I think that kids have the biggest hearts and the biggest like they're so open in ways that we have taught ourselves to close ourselves off or to like come up with reasons why it can't work because it's like, oh, well, I don't want to have to worry about that guy's budget or how he's going to have like there are so many ways we as adults can write ourselves out of that.

when as kids, we don't think that's an option. Yeah, and I will say he did figure it out. Like, he got a lot of volunteers. And, like, the sixth grade boys became our base coaches. And actually, like, those boys were kind of awesome because they really advocated and, like, stood with us in this moment, right? And we got parent volunteers. And so, like, it actually became this really beautiful thing, even though I'm sure it was a pain in the butt.

But we just forget that because things are hard doesn't mean that they're not worth it. Yes. And sometimes they are the most worth it. Yeah. Yeah.

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Okay, so what is this song and anthem for? Man, I really, Daniel, this is a theme. I just talked myself into loving every song. I'm so glad. I love that. I mean, I really enjoyed this conversation and this song, I didn't realize was going to pull this out of me. So yeah.

Yeah, totally. It's been really great. I think this is an anthem for finding comfort in sadness, for relishing melancholy. There are some movies I will put on just because I want to feel sad, and those would be The Hours and the Virgin Suicides. But I just want to feel too much and too deeply. And so I put on movies like that that just drain me of emotion.

And something feels great about that. Ugh, the catharsis of a good cry, man. Mm-hmm. How about you? I think that this is an anthem for the person who makes you feel tortured, for the person who makes you feel great and terrible. Mm. I'm trying to visualize when I would put this on while laying on my bed, and it's when I'm like, but you made me feel like your favorite. Mm-hmm. And then you cheated on me, right? This...

I guess when I feel betrayed and I want to remember why it was actually complicated, right? Like, oh, you did make me feel great. And then you really hurt me, but you did make me feel great. It's an anthem for the ambivalence of your feelings about those things. It's an anthem about ambivalence. Yes. I think that that is...

A great way to put it because it's real complicated, this song. Yeah. Well, next week we're going to look at Willow. And I just want to say again, folks, because we are getting to the end of this season, if you could please consider supporting us on Patreon so that we can make this show weekly and a real thing. We would really appreciate it. That's patreon.com slash let's ask Taylor Swift.

This was a Not Sorry production. We are a feminist production company. We are sponsored by our beloved Fetzer Institute. I am the executive producer. We are edited and produced by AJ Yaramaz. Our music is by AJ Yaramaz. We are distributed by ACAST.

Thank you so much to our crazy cat ladies, Kristen Hall and Dallas Capels, two of our Patreon supporters who helped make this show happen. And our wonderful team, Julia Argi, Nikki Zoltan, Courtney Brown, Casper Turquille, Anissa Ahmed, Danny Langley, Matt Potts, and Stephanie Paulsell. Daniel Schrader, I'll talk to you soon. Can't wait.

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