#19 Between bootcamps and your first UX job
52:15 Share

There aren't so many jobs for UX designers. So actually it's not like these jobs grow on trees and you just finished a bootcamp and then the hiring managers and companies are there waiting for you to finish the bootcamp and then jump on you and say, okay, come join us. It's not that easy. It's actually quite hard to find your first design job. And probably in, in along the journey,

I don't know, mentors trying to encourage them, boot camps trying to sell the program. I think that there's a fine print that most students don't get to read or don't get to completely understand.

hello everybody how are you guys doing welcome on the next episode of honest ux talk and um today's episode we are going to talk about the limbo between you finish your educational uh program whether it is a course or a bootcamp and before you find a job so let's talk about this limbo what do you do what are the steps how to optimize this journey

and stuff like that. But before we dive into the topic itself, I know it's been a while since we talked. As you might have noticed, we skipped a couple of episodes for a reason, of course. And so I just wanted to catch up with you, Ioana, and discuss how was your, I think, three, four, how many weeks? Last time we talked, it was like end of April. So let's catch up quickly before we dive into the topics. Ioana Petrovska-Belovicka

Wow, I can't believe that it was actually such a long time since we didn't speak. I feel like we now have that relationship in which I feel like I have an old friend that whenever I talk with, it's like as refreshed as we would talk daily. And so, yeah, yeah.

Well, since the end of April, what happened was that, as some of our listeners might know, I launched a UX bootcamp and it started on May 1st, the first cohort, and we have already built some relationships with the students that enrolled in the first cohort and it's really exciting.

It's really exciting to see this project coming to life. And I have a student that I love. I absolutely love her from Japan and she's very conscious and doing her assignments and reflection exercises and everything. And so it's absolutely wonderful. I know that you already know how it feels to help people actually transitioning into UX design beyond just mentorship, but also providing them with the

curriculum and exercises and so on and so yeah it's it's a very exciting time because for the past year I only worked on it but never had like the gratification yeah the feedback the feedback and like the feeling that uh it's working and I'm doing a good job with this project and so on and now I have it because I have constant feedback from our students how have you been yes um

So since the May 1st, when you have launched the program, I went for a vacation.

It's been great, at least for one week. I was on vacation for one week in Egypt. It was that kind of vacation when you do nothing. And it's like the first time I took this kind of vacation since 2017. And I'm really grateful for the COVID situation that forced me to do this. I would call it a seal kind of vacation because you do nothing. You just lay with your belly up and

and do nothing and just enjoying this dolce far niente, like they say it in Italian, which exactly translates sweet doing nothing.

So it was great. I took some time off to refresh. As soon as you're clearing your table from the tasks and to-do lists, your brain starts immediately reflect and think about life and think about what do you really want? Where do you want to focus moving forward and stuff like this? So it's definitely a great moment, which I think I've been missing a lot because I have to admit I was in a hamster wheel, but ultimately, yes, it just felt so cool to

Yeah, clear up your mind and have a lot of reflection thoughts. I'm turning 30 this Thursday, so I thought a lot about it, about the new decade and what does it mean and how does it feel to transition into the new decade. People in their 30s have different expectations, so I was worried about it and I had a lot of thoughts about it.

So, with all this talk, which is absolutely not about on topic today, let's just get into the topic. I don't want to talk about myself only today. I want to talk about the topic that actually our listener submits. And that topic, as I said already, it's about the limbo. The pain that the listener shared with us was that this person, I think it was a girl, so I would refer to her as she, said,

So she said that she finished the bootcamp, but she was kind of taken back by the fact that she didn't know what to do next. Nobody told her in advance that

Now you have to do all those case studies and do other portfolio projects. And she felt insecure because there was no more mentorship, nobody who could support you in the process. And, you know, let's be honest, after one project, you're not confident. You need much more experience and probably much more support. So for those of you who might have finished a bootcamp or any educational product project,

whether it is bootcamp mentoring program or a course, I think the pain is real, like you're left alone in this desert of what do I do now? So I think that's an interesting topic to tackle today. And I just want to start from, you know, mentioning this pain from the listener.

And so with that topic in mind, Ioana, what do you think the person finishing the bootcamp or mentoring program should do? If we can think about the steps or, you know, tips or to-do list, anything that comes on your mind? I actually have a lot of things on my mind because I'm spending a lot of my mental space, time, energy.

on this topic and I've been doing a lot of admission calls for the bootcamp and I've been talking to people who are, uh, prospecting our bootcamp and they are considering mental for their, uh, transition to UX design story. So I've been, uh,

in this conversation space for the past few months on and on and on and on. So I do know the struggles. We've also done a lot of research talking to people who have graduated from different bootcamp programs in the past few years. And indeed, as you said, as our listeners said, there's this, let's say,

dark pattern or it's a pattern it's something repetitive that we hear again and again students that finish boot camps but then feel disoriented and they feel like okay maybe we have the knowledge but we're not actually ready or um

very successful with finding a job because the reality out there is that there aren't so many jobs for UX designers. So actually it's not like these jobs grow on trees and you just finished a bootcamp and then the hiring managers and companies are there waiting for you to finish the bootcamp and then jump on you and say, okay, come join us. It's not that easy. It's actually quite hard to find your first design job. And probably in, in along the journey, uh,

I don't know, mentors trying to encourage them, boot camps trying to sell the program. I think that there's a fine print that most students don't get to read or don't get to completely understand. And then there's this inevitable disappointment when they finish and they realize that, oops, this is not as easy as everything made it. Getting back a little to what our listener wrote that

she has to do the practical projects and the mentorship is over, I think that this is the number one thing. So I think that any practical project or any promise that a bootcamp makes should involve having mentorship when you do your practical projects. So students or junior designers even, let's call them because they are already, let's say, in the very early days of their design career. So junior designers should be helped with

their first practical projects. Mentorship should be part of building the portfolio. And even if your educational choice doesn't support that, make sure you find a mentor to help you after you finish. Let's say you gather the knowledge

but then you need to have the practice. You need a mentor through that practice. You need guidance when you're doing the actual work. Probably any bootcamp graduate will discover that there's quite some difference between the theoretical part and how things actually are in practice because they're not as linear as the theory presents them. They're messier. There's a lot of back and forth. There's a lot of unknown. So there's,

definitely mentorship should be part of this process. I absolutely want to emphasize that. And then a last point that I want to make before hearing your thoughts around it, because you may know things even better than I do, because you've been doing the course with your students for a longer time now, and you're in the trenches with them and understanding their struggles. So another point that I want to make is that

When we were, let's say, building the vision for Mento, for the bootcamp that I've launched, we were talking about how do we define success for it? What is success for us? And then we figured probably traditionally you'd say success is when a student finishes the full months, all the months, all the projects, and they graduate and they get a diploma and that's success. But then we figured that's not success actually.

And then we said, so that might mean that success would be that that must mean that success is when the student finds a job. And then we know that we got we helped him get hired and we supported him through his journey. And now he's a designer because he has a job. But then we realized that that's not success either. So it's very interesting that actually a successful educational program or a successful boot camp or a successful course.

is one that not only enables you or gets you ready to find a job, but also helps you succeed on that job. So it sets you up for success once you're in that role. So we agreed as a team that success for us is when the student finds a job and is able to perform successfully on that job. Of course, in your first design job,

however ready you are for it, however much you've learned, however practical, many practical projects you've done, uh, there will be a lot of unknown. There will be a lot of anxiety. There will be a lot of, uh, yeah, not knowing how to handle things because it's really hard to, to know that before you actually experience it. But, um,

I think there is an extent to which bootcamps could get people ready and set them up for success on their first job. So I just wanted to make that distinction. Success is not when you graduate. It's not when you find a job. It's when you are able to be

good on your job and successful on your job. So with that being said, I don't want to talk for the entirety of this episode. This also feels like a bit of a therapy for me because I've been in, I've had a lot of ideas around this and I've discovered a lot of things and it's like, I'm, you're helping me put things into, into perspective and have some structure to my thoughts. But I'm really interested to hear your thoughts around this.

That's why I like our conversations. It's not just like us sharing one thing just to learn, right? When you talk, you not just explain something to others, but you also try to sort the mess in your head. You reflect, you think through what's

what happened in sort of in retrospective so I think it's actually a very good exercise no matter where you are in your career beginning middle like senior etc I think that's why having those conversations is almost like a must for any designer to sort of strengthen your knowledge and understanding but yeah coming back to the topic I think that

So let me think. I would start from the fact that no matter what program you have finished, whether it is a bootcamp on program or course, again, as I said, like course could be even more lonely because you most likely do not have like a direct mentoring one-on-one time with the lecturer, only like Q&A kind of time.

But in general, as you finish your educational program, it's true that we already established it, right? In some of the previous episodes, you need to have the theory, the practice, the reflection and the feedback.

Those are four important components. I just wanted to bring them up to have them top mind sort of as we have the conversation moving forward. And now, as you have those most important aspects tackled, hopefully, with the mentoring, with the practice, obviously, and with the reflection, I think that you are now on the trajectory to find the job in whatever form, right? You probably want to find...

a place where you want to apply your knowledge in a professional way. So whether it is a freelancing clients or a job where you're being hired for, you know, your time, et cetera. So in this job, in this trajectory, in this job hunting journey, my first thought was to think about it almost like as a funnel, because as you finish your program, you have a

So many options in front of you because you're just in the beginning of your journey. There are so many ways you can go from here.

And it's all about, again, think about the funnel. From the beginning, you have a very broad world in front of you. You have so many places to go, directions to take, things to consider. And so on that note, as we started, it might be interesting to start by reflecting on what's interesting for you personally. What is the journey that you want to embark yourself into? Like,

Are you interested in UX or more in UI part? Do you want to be a generalist designer? Do you want to be a specialist designer? What particular parts of the process are most interesting to you? Where do you see yourself applying or being more valuable or effective? Maybe start from there and also from there try to understand

maybe which companies do you want to target? Because ultimately the goal, right? We have like point A, point Z, end of the journey. So end of the journey, so to say for this conversation, will we define a job or a client? And so to aim that goal, you probably want to start thinking strategically, right?

And decide really whether you want to work for a digital agency. So again, being sort of a freelancer, but with the constant job coming your way, or being a freelancer who actually manages your business and sort of manages everything from A to Z.

being the jack of all trades or you want to maybe be the product designer in the product company or even startup you know helping a startup to scale and grow and stuff like that so it's maybe a question to you personally right now i think that the mentor or or a program or even the course that you are taking should explain you the differences between those those are important in order to really understand you know what are the opportunities for yourself but um

knowing the opportunities in front of you, I think it's a good, you know, moment to start reflecting where do you see yourself. And from that moment on, you start converging the final, you start going deeper and kind of having more clarity on the next step. So from the beginning of where do you want to go, you pick one trajectory, you pick one track, and then you start looking

paving your way towards that trajectory or your final ultimate aim or goal to get the job there. And then from there, I mean, it's about understanding, okay, what kind of portfolio do I want to build? If I'm interested in finding the design agency, maybe I need to have a more like UX, UI portfolio, more generalist portfolio with different skills performed there. But again, understanding that most likely you'll have, let's say, MVP kind of products.

startup kind of product or a product company, then in this case it should be already a little bit different kind of portfolio. So your projects in the portfolio should also align because product companies are again, they're, you know, they're focused on growth, on KPIs and some metrics on constantly innovating and, you know,

being on top of the market and stuff like that. So the goals could be a little bit different there. And even like when you start thinking again, what kind of projects should I put in my portfolio so that they align strategically with the company I'm aiming for?

Now, from that moment, you start again brainstorming and defining what you should be working on. And yes, most likely in the bootcamp or any program, you would work on one maximum two projects. It's very rarely where you have more projects. As you know, like most likely you need to put

through three projects at least in your portfolio. And even though we all know that only one project will be reviewed in depth, you still have to have those projects so your portfolio doesn't look like you're super newbie, fresh graduate, knowing not so much things. You probably want to have at least some confidence

And so from that moment, once you have a portfolio, you can start then applying for, first actually searching for companies that fit you strategically again. I'm sorry for repeating myself over and over again, but yeah, strategically looking for companies that align with your portfolio, with your interests. And then of course, applying to them, not like, and I think I mentioned it again in many other episodes, but you don't want to apply like a

like a boy hitting every single girl in the club. You want to apply only to specific companies that make you excited, that align with your portfolio, with your values, with your interests, so that when you have a conversation with these potential companies, you actually make a much better impression and your...

I think even motivational letter or folio, everything's just better match for the company there. And then there are much more chances that you're going to get hired by that company. So thinking through strategy or where do you want to be at? Yeah, I've been talking a lot here, but the point I think, or my most important takeaways from this rumbling around kind of conversation, I thought about funnel and how...

by finishing the program or the course, you are opening this funnel and from broad, you go in depth and you define where you want to be, but you want to know exactly where you want to be. You don't want to just, um,

like be used cars everywhere, applying everywhere, trying to have a general portfolio that fits everyone, but no one in particular. So yeah, that's kind of my intake or my perspective. So if there is anything you don't agree with or you want to add on top of that, let me know. Actually, I agree with most of the things that you said. I think with all of them, to be completely honest, I think that you should be very mindful of,

structured when it comes to your job hunt efforts. So otherwise, I would say that in the early days of your careers, it's a good thing to diverge. It's a good thing to experiment, to try different conversations with different companies, with different, I don't know, startups, big companies, small design teams, big design teams. So it's good to see where you feel because it's really hard to know what you want

and where you believe you'd be good at without having any sort of relationship to those places. So I'd say have as many conversations as possible, but there is actually a...

limit to it. So you don't want to be too all over the place because otherwise it's like, it's just like you said, you'll build a portfolio that doesn't actually speak to anyone because it's too generic. And so I'd say that starting with a reflection exercise, just like you said, is something extremely valuable. I know it's hard in the beginning, but that's where mentorship comes in. So with good mentoring, you're probably

be supported into handling this reflection exercise which is difficult because you're operating with a lot of unknown but at the same time it's extremely powerful because it helps you get uh the direction you need and and and yeah being determined in a certain uh in a certain direction in your job hunt and i'd say that okay so i'm now in the skin of uh

junior designer who has just graduated from the boot camp and I'm super excited and I'm so happy I'm gonna find a job and now what and so now yeah just like Anfisa said do the reflection exercise try to continue the practice as much as possible so continue working on practical projects even if in the beginning they're not proper UX jobs or let's say paid internships you can volunteer on

on platforms like democracylab.com or uxrescue.org you can volunteer on projects or you can volunteer to help friends family we spoke about this in other episodes so just make sure that you are practicing the skills and the knowledge that you've just

gained and slowly but surely try to understand what types of opportunities make sense for you and keep applying and be consistent in your job hunt efforts. So I know that I have a recruiter friend who says that you should apply to like

10 jobs per day every day. And he's right because you really need to make the effort. So you really need a routine. And if you, I don't know, apply to two jobs per month in the beginning, it's probably not the best idea. And you probably won't be very successful at landing your job, your first job fast unless you're really good at identifying the opportunities that make sense both ways from your perspective and from the higher perspective.

But yeah, most probably you'll have to apply to a lot of jobs in the beginning, but still be mindful about it and make sure there are jobs that you would be happy working on because nobody wants to hire a junior designer full of enthusiasm and then see all that enthusiasm go to drain as they discover that they don't really enjoy the product, the company, the industry or whatever. But

getting back to the place where you're at after you finished a bootcamp, you have to continue working. So this is what I would tell anyone out there. Don't stop. So don't make this break for like six months where you're just looking for jobs. Try to have continuously some kind of project that you're working on. And yeah, while I'm not a big fan of fictional prompts and I don't know, going on some...

design challenge generator, it's still better than nothing. It's still better to work on something than to not practice your skill at all. So keep working and keep applying and have a routine and be consistent. And a very important point, the last point I want to make before I pass it over to you again, is that networking as a

let's say generic or as cliche as it may sound, networking is super important and it can be very uncomfortable in the beginning, but try to move past. So, you know, the famous get out of your comfort zone, but yeah, try to get out of your comfort zone and reach out to other designers,

reach out to recruiters, reach out to companies that you'd be happy to work for, maybe create a personalized deck for that companies where you show what type of value you think you could bring to their company, why you would be super excited to work with them and so on. And just personalize your efforts

personalize your messages don't send a mass message where you just talk about yourself talk about why you like them and what you would like to learn from them and so on and yeah do that as comfortable as uncomfortable as it is and uh focus on networking as much as you focus on applying to jobs and eventually things will come together into into some actual opportunities that you will probably get in the end so i'll pass it over to you like no no no these are great uh

really great tips actually i as i started talking about broadening first like going to diverging first i start realizing that maybe before reflection you still need to like let's say tomorrow yesterday i finished my bootcamp today i started reflection exercise maybe it's not you know a good point point to start right away i think you're right in terms of diverging first and if i even look back on my journey and i talked about my journey already a lot of times so i'm not gonna repeat it but

I've been experimenting a lot. I was doing the internship, I was doing startups, I was in freelancing, I was working here and there, everywhere.

And honestly, it helped me really to understand where I want to be and what my strengths are, as well as building my confidence and understanding what are my strengths. So actually, it's a very, very good idea to start by still experimenting a lot, not thinking that once you finish this boot camp, now you're fresh and ready to go and everybody wants you. No, it's not like that, for sure. You probably still need to do a lot of things. So course gives you a kickstart. That's

that's great it helps you to build the fundamental understanding but now you have to actually go and practice it and try it in different aspects and different contexts and different settings and then figuring out where you fit best and then of course yes come

back to that final idea and reflect and decide really where do you want to apply strategically because like when you apply for a job and yeah right now I'm talking about jobs but I think in in terms of freelancing it could be also applicable but when you're applying for jobs or you picked one trajectory you're sort of starting you start investing into it

a long term because the job you're taking, you're probably taking it for at least one year. Some people are studying one job for 10, 15, 20 years. When you're looking for a job, it's a long term investment. And that's why you have to be mindful, like you said, Ioana, about this choice. And that's also why you have to think about it and be proactive and understanding the

where you want to be not like whoever take me because I'm dying to get some job but really to know why exactly you want to get that job and what exactly you can bring on the table to be a good valid candidate for that kind of company

So, yeah, those are great points. Also networking, just to add on your point, it's super important. I also cannot emphasize more on that point because even the current job that I found, quick story, I actually was not looking for a job. I think I mentioned it quickly in one of the episodes, but I was happy in my previous job.

But then I had like a, we had like a new year party when I invited a bunch of friends and a bunch of my friends invited another bunch of friends. And there was one girl I didn't know, but she was a friend of a friend. And then we get to know each other, blah, blah, blah. We never talked after the party, but long story short,

COVID happened and that girl reached me out asking if I'm looking for a job and I was actually looking for a job. And voila, I'm here working in the same company as she's working. So they're very random networking, not intentional, no strategic, but

still networking because you know my circles are pretty much also designers and IT people anyway so this random party made me connected with the girl and when they needed a designer she reached me out and sort of

I'm not sure how it works, but I think she kind of referred me as the potential good candidate. So definitely, you never know who can help you with the opportunities, but it's definitely, definitely helpful to build your network and being proactive at doing it. Not just like, yeah, well, you know, I don't want to have the friends in the same bubble.

It's also important to have friends outside of your bubble, but it's still very useful, especially in the beginning of your career to embed yourself in the industry as much as possible.

And I think that you actually just made a really interesting point, which I found from practice. I just discovered it by observing it at other people, something that works and may feel counterintuitive or it's not necessarily counterintuitive, but you don't expect it to be something. But something that actually is something and relates to your story is that if you talk about it

on as many platforms and with as many people as possible. So even in random situations, if you talk to somebody who's not even in the design industry and you just mentioned that you are now becoming a UX designer, which means that you'll be building digital products and

so on it may be that that person has absolutely nothing to do with design and you wouldn't even consider him as part of your network that person could then open the door to some person who's doing hiring in the design industry so i've seen people who have found the right jobs for them from the most unexpected places so it's not just that designers could help you open the right doors but also

random stories, random situations, informal places. So talk about your aspiration and what kind of job you would like to have or what kind of industry you'd like to work in. Talk about it as much as possible, wherever you go, as weird as it might sound.

And also on the internet as well. So on LinkedIn, on Twitter, maybe on Instagram, although Instagram is a very noisy place right now. But yeah, just talk about it and we'll

it can be, it will surprise you at times. Yes. And even if you don't find, let's say a job, you can still find nice peers or friends who you can always talk to like we do right now. And you never know where those brain friendship will bring you. Like for example, another quick story, we had this last mentorship, which I have mentioned, I think a few episodes ago, but we have another mentorship program that finished last

almost like end of April. And today in the stories I have seen that two girls that were working in separate projects has kind of grouped or united and started a new startup together, which is like, wow, nice. They were from Ukraine, both of them, but one was from one city, another from another. And then I saw like, oh,

One girl's traveling to city, to capital, to Kyiv. I wonder why. And then I saw that they actually, you know, started a startup. So they met together, probably worked a little bit together, put some strategy in and stuff like this. So it's really fantastic. You never know where those random people or random occasions or random networking moments will take you and what kind of outcome it might have. Yeah, so this is a great, great point and great interesting term to our conversation. I didn't thought about.

originally. But maybe another topic I wanted to cover still, if we have anything to add on top of that, is actually your portfolio. And I know we have an episode about the portfolio and what kind of projects you should put there, how many projects, how to structure your case studies and stuff like that. But can you maybe also talk about the value of your portfolio in the job hiring process? Like,

how to you know maybe approach it in terms of okay now i know what i want to do now i want know what kind of job i'm looking for and i even understand strategically what kind of cases i should put there what kind of problems i want to tackle there but

How do I make it special? What if maybe, you know, I have different skills? How do I even put them into one portfolio? What if I'm good at motion design, but also in strategy and UX? So how do you tackle this portfolio in a way that works well with your personality, with your strategy and with the companies you're applying? I know it's a broad question, so not sure if you have any thoughts. If you have, go ahead. Yeah.

I just wanted to bring this topic up. I actually have some thoughts around it because I recently saw a very interesting LinkedIn thread where somebody was asking whether designers should include a picture of themselves in their portfolio. And

And the majority of the answers said that totally you need to include a picture of yourself, even in your portfolio or website or PDF or whatever notion, whatever platform you choose for your portfolio. So it was interesting because actually for a very long time, I didn't have a picture in my portfolio. So where I'm getting at with this is that,

portfolio, your portfolio also needs to showcase your personality. And I don't want to turn it into something cliche or very broad or very like this. You need to show the employer who you are. And so they get a sense of you as a person, but actually you do need to do that to some extent. So it's, it may sound silly and probably, uh,

As you advance in your career, employers will focus on your work more than on your personality because when you get higher responsibilities and like you will be applying, let's say, for a job of design director or VP of design, then probably they won't be as interested in your hobbies.

but they will be more interested in the products you've built, the teams you've built and scaled and the companies you've worked on, the products, how many users you've reached and so on. But in the early days of your careers, it's hard to show something that's super impressive to the hiring manager. Because of that,

personality also comes, plays a role here. And I think that you shouldn't do it, overdo it. You shouldn't overdo it in the sense and talk too much about how you spend your weekends or your whatever hobby you have and detour the reader of your portfolio from design conversations to something completely unrelated. But it's good that you mentioned them. And it's good that just like you said, remain aligned with the

the kind of jobs that you want to have, the kind of skills that you want to showcase and would be relevant to those jobs and the experience that you want to talk about. Because maybe some things, let's say, I see many people who have experience as graphic designers or have been illustrators or something, but they don't want to showcase it in their UX design for

because they don't want to be hired for those type of jobs anymore. So even if you have something that's great experience, but it's something that you don't want to be working on anymore, maybe consider not showing it or just mentioning it in a very small real estate in your portfolio. So, yeah.

Yeah, I guess where I'm trying to get at is that it's a balancing act. It's like finding the perfect recipe. And also, I think that an important point to be made here is that you can iterate on your portfolio from an interview to another. So our portfolio is like, I don't know, any product. It's never done. Design work is never done. It's not over. It's not like I have the perfect portfolio and that's that. I think that no designer in history has ever felt that.

Or at least, or even if they did feel that it was like for two days and then they wanted to update their portfolio. So it's the same when you're in your entry level days, you can iterate from one job to another. So see that if the feedback that you get is that, oh, I think you'd be a great motion designer, but you don't want to be a motion designer that maybe cut down on that part and it's

spend more time in uh and in communicating the fact that you actually want to do more research and so yeah this is i hope that i answered your question okay so first off i i really wanted to say that the personality matters even also after you know you get a bit higher i think um

personally from maybe i'm also biased but in our company we do look for personality feed as well a cultural personality feed we try to make sure that people trust each other um and we kind of nurture the relationship between people so i think like even if you are

applying as a director, it's still important to showcase your personality. And yes, like you said, you don't have to explain, you know, what are you doing in the weekend? What do you cook for breakfast? But you do want to say exactly who you are. Like you want to give an impression of what is it like? What does it, what could it be like to work with you? And I was recently watching one portfolio and interesting enough, actually, for the first time, I found a very good portfolio. I really liked the case studies, but I didn't like, like the personality. And

I know it's like not what you expect to have, but it's actually, it definitely helped me because, because the person showed who she is, her, you know, musical preferences and the photo of her and some interesting facts about her. I felt like I don't think I would be a good friend of this person.

So that's not to say that it's bad, actually. It's just to say that not every company would be a great fit and it's totally, totally fine. It's almost like building the relationship and not everybody find their love from the first sight. So it's important to say who you are and actually looking for this perfect match, sort of. And yes, I don't think I have more to add to the portfolio. I think we discussed it quite a bit in our previous episodes. I think, yes, strategically, personality-wise,

case study and structuring wise, it's all important aspects we have discussed in the past. So make sure you kind of have this checklist and you sort of tick all the boxes from the points we've discussed. But the last

point or the last topic before we move on to our top three takeaways from today's conversation that I wanted to quickly cover was actually the hiring process itself. Maybe how do you even get noticed among the HRs or people who recruit or look for you? We've already established the fact that networking could be really, really useful icebreaker for the beginning. But also, what if, you know, like,

yeah wait maybe you can also you know take advantage of HR reaching out to you in LinkedIn and other people who might see your CV or portfolio anywhere online and it keeps there I think that it it kind of circles back a little to what I was trying to say earlier on being let's say intentional mindful about your job plan so I'd say that if you if you

If you set up your personal KPI for the job hunt to be intentional and proactive about it, then you increase your chances that people will notice you. So if you just sit there and wait for people to pass by you and notice you and look at your CV and say, okay, maybe this person could be the right fit.

you have lower chances than if you directly approach those people and tell them, okay, you know what? I think that I am the right fit. I think that I would be good for this job. So instead of being passive, try to be proactive in reaching out to these people and make sure and help them notice you. Because recruiters also, I think they have like a lot of...

applications to choose from and I've seen jobs on LinkedIn with hundreds, thousands of applications. So I think that for them, it's really hard to make sense of all the noise around the job. So especially for juicy jobs or what are deemed as juicy jobs. So I think that what you could be doing in order to cut some corners is to approach them directly. But again, don't be spammy. Don't be like, send them a message. Hi, please,

hire me but uh but but send them something that's mindful that shows appreciation of their time that shows respect that kind of gets the message across quite quickly without taking too much of their time so uh it's not easy clearly uh maybe we should do let's say a honest ux talks uh checklist on how to how to have a successful job hunt but these are my dissents so far uh

interested to hear yours and then move on to our final points what I've noticed and again this is just from my personal experience doesn't mean that it's a big pattern or something but what I've noticed is that HRs actually write you interestingly enough they write you as soon as your LinkedIn profile says two years of experience so

I don't know. It sounds not very logical and not very effective as for me, but I assume there is somewhat or something that, you know, recognizes people who have the relevant label or the title in their LinkedIn profile. And as soon as your title profile says two years of experience,

they instantly notice you or your profile gets in the early somehow and then they start reaching you out. So somehow,

I've noticed a strange pattern that HRs are very, very keen on finding people with two plus years of experience in one working place, just to be sure. Because if you're jumping between places, like, I don't know, every three months or six months, they might think that you are not, you might have problems, like, that you might not stick around for some reason. So it could be suspicious. And I don't think it's correct. I don't think that's the right aspect of

you know, to get noticed by, but if the system is broken, then maybe we should also somehow adjust to that system. And what I thought about is maybe that even if you think that you don't have two years of experience working in one world famous company, maybe you can consider your pet project or your startup project as your long-term investment. And

yes, this is not the job that, you know, pays you back or something, but you still can consider those as a years of experience. If you honestly dedicated your time and effort, I think it's still useful to add this project into your LinkedIn. Uh, for example, I did mention my startups, which didn't succeed on the market, which are not famous, but I still mentioned them, uh, because I was working on my startups for more than two years. So, um,

We want it or not, but that's an experience which taught me a lot. And I just think that you shouldn't be afraid to add your pet projects to your LinkedIn. Yeah, I think that's it from my side in terms of

recruiting process and making sure your CV or portfolio gets to the HRs maybe. But optimizing your chances is what you probably need to focus on. And so, yes, like you said, recruiting, being noticed, being proactive, networking, all of those things would increase your chances to find a job. So,

Do we have more things to cover or let's just go to the top three points and takeaways from today? I'd say we go to the top three takeaways. All right, Ioana, do you want to start? I can start. I can definitely start. I know that I always get the juicy parts. Feel free. Um, but yeah, so, uh, I think that my top three things for today were that, uh,

So I'm going to go backwards a little and restate the fact that you need to be intentional in everything you do. And I know that it's a time. So after you finish your boot camp, I can understand that it's a time of anxiety and it's a time where you feel a lot of confusion and you feel like you don't have a clear path ahead of you and you feel lost and you feel maybe lonely and maybe

Maybe you have second thoughts and a lot of doubt and it's stressful, but you need to try to get yourself together and pull yourself together and create a plan for yourself. So understand what type of job you would be happy exploring in the beginning. What type of people you think would...

could help you in your job hunt. Uh, so be intentional around everything you want to achieve in, in those steps and as much as possible, have someone guiding you through the process. So I, I can't, uh, I won't ever grow tired of, uh, uh, saying that mentorship is important and that if you have a mentor through this journey, it will feel much easier and it will go much smoother. Another thing that I want to, um,

pinpoint as my uh as a finding for today is that um reflection is very important i loved your point about starting with the reflection exercise even if we went around it a little and then said okay maybe you need to experiment more in order to be able to reflect but it kind of ties closely to the point around uh being intentional so to be intentional you have to be able to reflect

on your goals and needs and yourself in this journey. The last thing is that

manage your expectations as early as possible. So I think that students or boot camp graduates become highly disappointed once they discover that it's not as easy. It feels like they're never find a job. There are so little opportunities. There are so many candidates and other graduates. The market is so competitive. Don't get discouraged. Be mindful of this from the very beginning.

It's not going to be easy, but the thing is that if you manage to push through it, it's eventually going to be easier. So once, just like you said, once you hit like the two years mark, jobs will start coming towards you. You won't have to chase jobs. And so you have, you just have to be patient through this early days, but be prepared for this and set your expectations right.

uh be honest and yeah it's not easy but it's totally doable yes i agree that the efforts will be paid off and that's totally worth it beginning is hard but you know it's always like this the easier it is the more people are there um the bigger competitive is a competitive is a competition so it's probably a good time if it's hard in the beginning um just stay there and keep it up

My points would be actually, one point would be to, okay, so I'll also revert back to the beginning of our conversation. As soon as you have diverged and understood what do you want to do, start having this funnel loop and you do these stages, I would say, understanding what do you want to do, then defining a track, then building your strategic portfolio fit.

and then researching for the companies who could be a good fit for you as well. And also track your application. So don't sort of hit every single possible job ad, but actually, you know, sort the jobs that do not fit well with you.

That's the first one. Second one would be to, it's a little bit touches the point that you have started, but also I think it's important to ask for a support in this journey and also iterate on your journey because as you start applying for jobs,

You might see that your portfolio doesn't work very well or something isn't working out. Maybe if you, again, think about the funnel and see where in this funnel there are most dropouts. So where exactly people say no to you and why and try to really see what's the problem there. What could you do better, optimize for it at a rate that

portfolio, the presentation, the key studies, whatever it is that you have figured out through the process. And of course, iterate. It's not like

you know, even though it's not working, I'm going to push forward, even if my portfolio doesn't work, it's not gonna work. So I think it's important to be iterative in this process. And also, like you said, like ask for a portfolio review, especially if you know where the problem happens. That could be a great conversation with the mentor that could help you out with some tips on how to improve things.

And the last point from my side would be to the last part of our conversation was about optimizing your chances to get noticed. So that actually will be my last point. Optimize chances to get noticed in whatever way that feels more natural or easy for you or comfortable for you. Either it is, you know, to find friends in the industry or even friends of the friends who might be kind of in the industry, or even just to start the social media page, LinkedIn page, um,

talk about it, go to the events and stuff like this. Just be proactive and make yourself getting noticed. That's important in the beginning of any journey. And

another quick story. I have a lot of stories today, but I also find my first freelance geek after the hackathon. So it was not like me, you know, knocking every single door, but I just went to the event and to get to know some people and then they get to know me and they decided to, you know, reach me out when they needed a designer. So, uh, being proactive is kind of in a mindset you have to adopt and embrace, um,

once you're out of Budka Mori program. So there is, yeah, there is a long journey ahead of you and there's a lot to be done and it should be exciting. Don't be afraid of it. Don't be freaked out. It's exciting, but also frightening. And that's all right. You will be even missing these times, I think, after a few years. So, yeah.

it's okay. Just have fun. Don't stress out too much. Stressing out doesn't help at all, but keep it up and don't be afraid to reach out to people who have some experience to help you out in this endeavor. So yeah, that's it from our site for today. I think we can wrap it up. Any last points or any last words?

Well, actually, I think we covered a lot of topics indeed on a very broad level because we didn't go into much detail, but we did in past episodes. So anybody who wants to dive deeper into some particular topics we touched upon today can go visit our past episodes because we did a lot of talking around these topics. And I'm going to let you do the social announcement.

Thank you so much for sticking around until the end of the episode. And as always, you can find us online on Instagram.

You can find us as Honest UX Talks, or you can just reach out to us directly to UX Goodies or Amphisign. We're always here to help. And also, if you have any more topic ideas that we should cover in the next episodes, don't be afraid to just drop it by and we'll definitely try to put it into our backlog of ideas. So yeah, that's it for today. Thank you so much, everybody. And have a good end of the day or beginning of the day, whatever the time zone is.

have a good time everyone and thank you Anfisa for another awesome episode yes you too thank you so much bye bye bye