#64 Why did we choose a career in UX design?
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I felt like I was also very curious and that led me to be very interested in the research. I was always the first person who would come and like do the research, like let's jump into the, I don't know, shopping mall and talk to people, make the field study. I felt like very excited to find that information. And when you, as the person who's always curious and wants to run research and doesn't afraid to talk to people,

I obviously would collect information and I need to start analyzing this information. And that puzzle also stick very well with me because naturally in my life, I love planning. I love organizing. Hi, everyone, and welcome to a new episode of Honest UX Talks. As always, I'm joined by Anfisa. And today we will be discussing a very personal story of why we became UX designers. Basically, we're going to unpack why we chose design careers and

how it all started out for us. Before we do that, I just want to take a moment to thank Figura.Digital, which is our wonderful sponsor for our wonderful chats. If you haven't already learned from us, it's basically a job board, but it's more than a job board because they really vet both companies and the designers that are accepted in the system. And what's really exciting is that they just launched on Product Hunt.

And that means that they will be attracting more super interesting and quality startups and companies that as designers we get to work for on their platform. So it's really exciting to check out if you want to explore freelancing as a UX designer. If you're already doing it, make sure to go to figura.digital and just enter the process. With that being said, hi Anfisa, how are you? How was the past week?

Hello everybody and welcome to the next episode. My past week was okay. I think I wanted to report back on how the workshop went, right? Last time we talked, I mentioned that I'm planning to do that workshop. So it was interesting. I would say that it was not a complete success, but it was very interesting to first time try it. I've definitely learned what works, what doesn't work. And that's always the best part of it, I guess, because you don't know what will stick, what

will not, but I know that right now I better have to frame it differently because the name didn't work well. And just like some things, how to moderate it better in terms of practical exercise. That's something that I definitely want to rethink a bit better. But other than that, it went great. I would say it was pretty intense, but I feel like it was really great that we have three slots because we had 45 minutes for presentation, 45 minutes for personal challenge, and then 45 minutes for presentation of the challenge plus the feedback.

And it was really intense, but also people said that was like very good because you kind of have to, in three hours, you practice very different things, right? So it's more immersive. And so that part went really well. But like I said, framing is something that I would definitely want to work on. So stay tuned if you want to join the next one. And I believe I will run the next one in the end of November. So like two, three weeks from now. Probably I will also leave the link under the show notes if you want to sign up to not miss it.

Other than that, life as usual, work as usual. It was pretty intense also in work last week, but it was fun intense. A lot of things right now happening at my workplace. A lot of things change in terms of design culture. It was ups and downs to be very transparent throughout this whole year. I've joined only like nine months ago and during the summer, it was a little bit dramatic, but now it's getting a bit more clear and steady. And I think we're shaping up as a team and building a culture finally. So it's becoming...

more and more actually good and even excited in some places. So it's a lot like every single day, we're still changing culture, how we work, the team dynamics. And that's why it's becoming very dynamic. But next week will be fun because I'm going for the first field trip with my team, with my work. I'm going to Amsterdam on Tuesday for like three and a half days. So that's also very interesting and exciting because I've joined the travel company for the reason. And that's, yeah,

that's finally it. Yes. So definitely excited about that part. And that's basically about it. How about you, Joanna? How was your last week? I actually had a great week, which is not how I typically answer this question, because I think my most common answer is something along the lines of, ah, you know, some things were good, some things were bad, a lot of introspection stuff and kind of the regular psychological hardship.

of just existing. But this time I really had a good week. I think it had to do with the fact that in my full-time role at UiPath, I was just assigned a very important project, which is right now, let's say the most visible product the company is working on. It's very important in a way. So I really get to feel that pressure, but also excitement and the deep feeling that I can really make an impact.

impact if I get it right. So I'm very happy to be privileged to get to work on this product. It's, let's say, more of an exploratory kind of incubation product. There's a lot of experimenting to be done and a lot of research, but I get to work with a very strong research team from the US. We

We really try to de-risk the design decisions we make as much as possible by running a lot of research. But still, it's a very exciting field. It's a field that's rapidly evolving. So I'm talking about AI and all the progress that we've seen recently with all the technologies and applications of technology. We're basically seeing them everywhere like DAO-E and table diffusion and these kinds of things on images. But there are also language models that are being perfected and more sophisticated.

reliable now. So we get to do a lot of experiments and explore a lot of technologies. And I'm really happy I get to spend so much time immersed in AI. So on one hand, I'm pretty excited that I get to unpack a field that I was kind of contemplating or admiring from the sidewalk. And now I'm deeply immersed in it and trying to understand it and use the technology and understand how users interact with these new technologies. And then

on the other hand, it's really exciting to get to really make an impact both at a company level, but potentially kind of shape how this market will develop and really, I don't know, create maybe a standard for interactions on really new product that isn't yet out there. So that's very exciting. And it kind of feeds all my, let's say, life energy, my life force. And now I feel very creative. I feel very determined. I feel very curious. I'm learning a lot. It's just a very good

moment from this perspective in my life. Apart from that, I feel that now I have more clarity on the content I want to put out there on UX goodies and the kind of products I want my audience to use or the way in which I hope they will use the UX universe and the toolbox that I'm talking about. So I think this was something that was really difficult for me, like understanding what is that I want to tell people, what are my messages? What are my values, my mission?

So the values were pretty easy to articulate, but like, what are the actual things that I want to say that was harder, but now I feel that I'm making big steps in that direction as well. I'm also working on some partnerships that will enable me to deliver those messages and kind of give them something more actionable. Like I'm partnering up with Hotjar, which is one of my dream companies to partner up with, because they are basically giving us the instruments to inform

form our design decisions better. So they're giving us the heat map and understanding how people interact with websites or web products that we build. So I don't know, I feel it's really valuable for designers. And I'm happy I get to talk about it and create more content on that. And I think yeah, I've been talking for a long time. I'm gonna stop now. And so let's just see how we chose a UX design career. And I'm gonna ask you first to share your story. Although I know you're

story. I think some of our listeners might know it as well. But I think it's really interesting to give that spin of the rationale behind it, like frame it with the reasoning behind that decision in mind.

Surprisingly, I don't think there is a rationale behind it, to be very honest. It's more exactly like the opposite. It's more of an emotional decision that actually happened to me. So let's actually talk about the story, right? As cheesy as it sounds, I do feel like this industry actually chose me, not I chose it. It was really not that rational of a decision where I do proper research, where I'm brainstorming and thinking, what is the best thing for me based on my

traits, right? It was not the story where my parents said, here are all the career tracks you can consider. Or maybe I went to some career job fair and I kind of explored it. Or, you know, in some schools, they have those trials when you can go and experience day in the life of different professions and choose what fits you best. So it was never that story. It was really the story

when this kind of industry chose me. I was drifting and then I stumbled upon it and everything took me towards that industry. So practically how it went was that I've accidentally moved to Estonia to study a master's degree that I've considered will be all about the industrial design.

My background was interior design. And for my master, I was considering I'm going to do some industrial design so I can actually build the furniture and sell it on top of general interior design offering. My parents are architects, so it was like all aligned together. And so, yeah, I was looking for the product design because for me, that was exactly industrial design, just put simpler.

And then I originally thought I will go and study master's in Germany. When I started looking at the programs, unfortunately, they finish enrollment very early, like basically like a year before enrollment. And it was already too late because I started thinking about the country and the program only like half a year before enrollment. So that was late.

And I was like looking for other programs and happened so that I had a boyfriend back then in Estonia. And I never thought I will go to Estonia. It was never on top of my mind. It was never a country I would even consider. But, you know, I just looked into Estonia. Oh, okay. I found that program. It was relatively cheap comparison to other European countries. And then it was just like, okay, product design, exactly what I need. Not too far from Ukraine. I'll probably be traveling home often. So it just felt like, okay, an easy choice for me.

Again, I knew pretty much nothing about Estonia, except for the fact that it's Baltics. And, you know, it was also a part of Soviet Union back then and just like basics history. So I was very uneducated about where I'm going. And so I moved to Estonia, started product design program. And surprise, surprise, it appeared to be human-centered design program, basically.

It was all about design thinking, about workshops. I believe that the program was built on three curriculums or three, I guess, directions in the curriculum. First one being the business, second being engineering, and third one being design thinking. And they really wanted to build like this fully shaped designers that understand three parts that are very important for

or build in products, right? How do you monetize it? How do you build it? How do you ship it? How do you acquire audience for it? Then how do you make it user-centered? How do you make it so that people want to buy it and just a product that fits the need, as well as how do you actually make it feasible and realistic so you can actually produce it and build, right? These are three aspects that

we really were diving very deep into the program. And of course, it was not something I was expecting because what I was expecting as a naive 21-year-old girl, I was expecting that I would come in and start building furniture from the cardboard. And that's something I never did eventually. I mean, actually, we did a little bit of it, but like,

very, very basic prototyping. I believe we were building the kitchen and we used the cardboard to prototype the ergonomics of the kitchen. That's all. So yeah, I was like confused about it. But also I believe that in the first half year in Estonia, when I moved there, I was also pretty lost. It was poor English without understanding what's happening. Why are we doing design thinking workshops? What the hell is what design thinking is? Just again, the first year in Estonia for me was like when I feel myself in a very blurry environment, I didn't know what's happening.

I soon also realized that I'm not exactly happy socially because I'm usually a very like extroverted person maybe not after COVID but usually I'm a very extroverted person and I needed people I needed events I needed energy from people I just needed something to be

happening around me. And it's just not the dynamics of the country I chose because it's like a Northern country, very close to Finland, very close by mentality to Scandinavian countries. So yeah, very reserved, not to say hard to have a conversation, but you definitely need to be in a much better relationship with people to actually have deeper conversation. And I always felt like I am stumbling the wall. Like I can't break those walls. I can't talk to people.

Every time I start talking and I'm like very gesticulative and like very emotional and I don't know, like just trying to spark the conversation and it's not flowing. It's always stuck. I started struggling immediately pretty much. And the first half year, I felt really not happy there. And then suddenly my friend is taking me to the hackathon. I had no idea what is hackathons.

So I was like, okay, I'm already lost. So let's do whatever. I'm joining that hackathon and boom, it was like a miracle to me, to be honest, because suddenly I found people who are very fun, very welcoming, very easy to talk to, full of energy, full of ideas, all want to build some products. And what we did, so my friend also is like,

She was very fun, but she was like pushing me to pitch an idea. So I went to present an idea. It was actually taken very nicely. People started reaching me out, I believe, because it was like encouraged to be outgoing there and like present ideas in startup circles. It's very, you know, you need to be proactive. And so people started talking to me and I started suddenly feeling like the energy from people. And then I had to be like leading on that project we were working on during that hackathon project.

I was presenting in the touch points and I was like leading the design thinking and I was the only person who knew the photoshop illustrator so I was designing it as well and like we were sort of pushing this idea and testing it on people who are participating in hackathon long story short it was just very fun and suddenly I woke up in the middle of the year I felt

the energy from people. It was really fun, basically. And that's something I didn't experience in Estonia in the first half a year at all, because I always felt like it's cold, it's reserved, I can talk to anyone, and it's always dark. Because also in Estonia, you know, winter is coming earlier, and it's becoming very dark from October. So as soon as you arrive there in September, one month's in, and then it's becoming the winter all the way. Yeah.

So I did feel a bit like unhappy there in terms of weather and social life. And then, yeah, again, these people just changed everything. And because they were giving me this title, UX designer, doing that hackathon, I was like, okay, I don't know what is UX designer.

but I'm going to check it. So, okay, after the hackathon, go back home, start reading a lot about what the heck is UX design. There was Medium. I started reading more about the title and I was like, whoa, this is a profession. Like I never heard about it. What is that? And it was like 2012. So it was still not a very popular title to have, except that it was very common in Estonian and every other person was already a UX designer there. I

think also design thinking was a very common practice in general in the Scandinavia area so like the whole approach to design thinking how they build products was already very common there like 60 years before I've joined or before I moved to Estonia it was just already the mindset of the people

Well, for me, it was a completely new mindset I had to still adapt to. But as soon as I've met the networking in the IT circles and then I connected it to my studies, then it became like making sense to me. And then I became very excited about it. So I started reading a lot about the profession, medium, courses, books, whatever I could find. Also, the network was really, really helpful. There was a lot of meetups. Obviously, Estonia is like tapping a lot on the IT sector.

for like taxes, for incoming, for attracting the talent. And so they really, really do great job at promoting IT environment. And a lot of people would actually be very enthusiastic and entrepreneurial. So a lot of people would start by doing, I don't know, some cider or beer brand, making it from home, craft beer or something like that. If it succeeds, they understand a little bit about the business. Then they start thinking about the business ideas and IT. And then it starts being very like wearable-ish because every other person wants to build the product.

And it's very easy to be soaked into that network. Because again, people are very welcoming, a lot of meetups, a lot of activities happening there. And suddenly in the middle of the dark, I started feeling excited and a lot of people, energy and stuff like that. That's how I discovered it. And of course, it was not immediately that I became the UX designer because I still had my studies going on. I worked

wanted to practice it a bit. So after the hackathon, I met with another partner and we started working on the project, my own startup project. It was wellness booking app. We didn't have any competitors in the Baltic States. So we actually wanted to try that idea in Estonia. Definitely a very interpersonal

entrepreneurial and very cool experience for me where I was combining both like how do you build the usable product as well as how do you actually make it grow. Meeting with investors, I had to work until 3am every other day because I had to work on a lot of different things. Networking was something you couldn't even get out of because it was very contagious. So I guess I will stop here because it's a long story already. Yeah, I do feel like I never chose it, but suddenly I wake up

feeling like that's exactly what I need. It's creative. It's full of energy. It's full of talking to people. It's full of research, which I also feel like I'm a very analytical person. And for me, that was a perfect puzzle. I just love the speed of building the products because in interior design, you would have to spend half a year thoroughly planning everything, going into constructions. You know, it's very heavy work as well. Sometimes like in a year or so, you'll see the results of your project.

in a hackathon in 48 hours you'll see their product life and you start seeing direction so that was like magic again to me what about your story I loved your story it's not the first time I hear it because we're friends for a long time but every time you say it it's compelling and I discover a new angle to it or a new thing that I can relate to so speaking about what I can relate to I've had

in a way, a similar experience of just being drawn into UX design, a way of feeling that this career kind of chose me instead of pursuing it very, very intentionally. But I'm going to try to like recall and sort of summon the feeling that I had when I decided that I want to be a UX designer, when I actually had that clarity for the first time. And I know that hindsight is 20-20. So probably I'm like now applying this...

knowledge biased. Now I know what UX design is. So probably I kind of had an intuition back then. But what I feel or what I remember feeling was that UX design was attractive for a couple of reasons that sort of felt like came from an intuition because I didn't know for sure. Obviously, I'm going to stay in the beginning at a very, let's say, abstract or philosophical level of the story and then dive deeper into how it actually unfolded.

On let's say an overarching feeling that I had around UX design, I was drawn to it because I could foresee that there's going to be a lot of collaboration and I love collaboration and even resolving conflicts if you want. So I love everything about collaboration, even the tension, getting to know the other person or the team, understanding the dynamics, unpacking it. So you move into the most efficient and effective way of working together. So I was naturally drawn towards that.

And I could see by watching the UX designers in our company, at that time I was an ING bank, I could see that there's a lot of collaboration involved and that typically that's where things go wrong. So I felt like there was a potential for me to bring my natural traits and my natural inclination towards peacemaking and finding the common ground with folks and understanding how to solve problems.

problems between people and so on. So I felt that this collaboration aspect would kind of suit my personality and also be exciting at the same time. So that was one thing. And then another thing that I had an intuition about was the fact that there are boring parts, like with every job, there will be things that you will like less, and there will be things that will not be necessarily exciting. But what was very exciting was diversity, if you want the versatility of the field, right? So I could see I could anticipate that I'm going to be working and I'm

in different industries. And it's exactly what I was talking about in the intro today. Now I'm super excited just because I get to explore the AI industry and the emerging technologies and all the progress that's being done. That's super exciting. And I feel that you could continue to have that just by switching industries. And in a way you become a domain master.

just by moving into different industries. And that's a distinct layer. So on one hand, you become a better designer. But on the other hand, you understand new industries and you understand different industries and you specialize in them. And that could go on forever. So you could just go deeper into UX design, but go wider in the industries and in the fields and in the problems, essentially, that you understand. And that was very exciting. And it proved to be super exciting work

until today. So I had the opportunity. So I started out in the banking industry. And then I had a long term collaboration with a startup from Boston that was in the health tech industry. So I also understood a bit of how health industry works, at least in the US. And then

I also worked with agencies so I could understand the universe of design agencies and kind of the pressure and the dynamic and the energy. And then I moved into the RPA industry. I've also had different collaborations in legal tech or other, let's say, fields that I was able to explore. So I feel that this is something that I anticipated and I was right in doing so. And it's so exciting. And it's always going to be exciting, right? You can't run out of that.

There are so many problems to be solved and so many industries that need help. So you're always going to be able to understand a new field, understand a new problem space. And sometimes there's an element of surprise, I feel like, especially when you're freelancing and sometimes new clients reaching out and you're like, oh, I've never heard about this industry or never been even like aware about it or how it works. It's definitely a greater challenge to have, right? To explore more about how the world works. Yeah, yeah, exactly. I mean, I feel that I'm becoming a

better person, a more knowledgeable person, not just by being a better designer, but also by unpacking and going wider in what I'm exploring as problems in general. And so that's great. And then the last, the third point, so on one hand, collaboration and then being able to design in different industries. And then the last point for which I felt that I want to pursue UX design, that it would be

good for me, or I would be excited about it is the psychology component. And I feel that I was always drawn towards psychology, both for self healing purposes, but also because it's really, really interesting to understand how the mind of other people works. Because

Of course, we have this internal bias that everybody's thinking on the same structures and the same connections and the same based on our own experience. But for me, what was fascinating as a human and also as a designer, but mostly as a human so far, was to understand how differently our connections work and our systems. And we have different patterns, but they're still patterns. So in a way, they're universal, but they're very individual. It's really interesting. So

So I feel that I had the opportunity through UX design to explore this part of human nature and of life in my work. And that's amazing. It's true that I think you do that more if you're in the research space. So if anyone is deeply passionate about psychology and unpacking how our mind works, I think you should head towards a UX research career because that's where you'll be spending the most time close to the people you design for and really understanding them deeply. And so that's what I would advise anyone who's passionate about psychology.

But for me, it was even as a generalist UX designer, I felt like I had a lot of opportunities and plenty of room to think about how our mind works in regards to technology and interfaces, but also deeper than that, like beyond that. What are our needs? What are our goals? What are we sensitive about? Or what's a vulnerability that we might have and that might have some sort of connection to the way we use this particular product or the way we

solve this particular problem. And so there was always that psychology component. And also, of course, all the, let's say, UI psychology, the Gestalt principles, how our mind operates when it comes to perception of objects and relationships between objects. And so that's also very interesting. But even at the deeper level, like the needs, the wants, the aspirations, the dreams, I feel like I get to sometimes operate with that in my work. And that's

incredibly rewarding and super exciting and undrainable, right? So you can know it and just move on. You're always going to have something to learn and discover. And especially since I'm not doing research all the time, every time I get to go in that space, I'm closer to something that feels new. Okay, so with this very long intro to like, these were some sorts of how I anticipated design would be. And it was, of course, I didn't think about all the downsides if you want, but this is a topic for another episode.

So now very briefly on my actual transition story, I was working with ING Bank for, I think, at that point, five, six years. And I felt like I couldn't find my place in the company and I couldn't find my place in the world. Like, what am I doing with my life? Time is passing. People in their 20s kind of start figuring out what they want and I'm getting nowhere. I have

no idea. And then on this really like curious and open and unsolved kind of canvas, UX appeared. And then I felt like I had this intuition. I was drawn towards it and I felt exciting, sometimes inexplicably because I didn't really know what it was about, but I just knew that, oh, I like this. I want to learn more about it and see what it's all about. So I kind of felt like I'm going to do it.

And trust my intuition. What happened was that I was working in the digital team of ING Bank and I was doing content for a part of the mobile internet banking app. So I was just putting in offers. And so it was like sort of a cashback product where you would pay at different merchants that we had partnerships with, and then you would get a cashback.

You would get a discount and get money back, essentially. So I was just managing all the offers and making sure that the offers are valuable and easy to understand and so on and so forth. So it had a component of designing an experience or thinking about the experience that the person interacting with that cashback system had. And I was there from its inception. So from...

the point where we came up with the idea, let's build a cashback system. And then to the point where I was actually managing and putting offers up. So I was there for the entire journey. I sort of had the startup experience if you want, but within the big umbrella of a very big company, I wasn't doing UX design per se, but I always had the user in mind. And I always came with improvement proposals based on what the user said, but I was like content manager. I wasn't a UX designer.

And then UX designers started popping out through the company. We built a small design team and we hired people with a lot of experience from the industry, which were not many in the market because UX was pretty new in Romania at that point. But so we hired the most senior people we could find. And then I started observing them. What are they doing? What are they talking about? What are these questions they keep asking and so on? So I started learning from these folks.

And then also that gave me the clarity that with every observation exercise, if you want, that I did. And luckily they were hosting their meetings in an open space. So I could just do my content thing and then listen to what they were talking and the debates and kind of all the conversation and the dynamic. And so that kind of gave me a glimpse into what I would be doing. And I felt like I won that. I actually liked that. So then I started learning UX design on my own. I started making it very...

telling people that I want to be a UX designer. I want to be a junior or apprentice or whatever. Just give me a chance. Give me a chance. And nobody would give me a chance because everybody was looking for senior designers. And I think this is the conundrum that we still see in the market. But it happened in my case as well. So people in my team and product leaders, they wanted to hire senior people because there was no design maturity. There was no design culture. So somebody who has been through that before needed to come in and sort of

build a foundation, build a culture, the system for design, right? So I couldn't do it as a junior, obviously. But I kept pushing for it. And then I think it took one year, one year and something because of a circumstance where all the senior designers left except for one person that was also about to leave. The leadership kind of felt like, you know what, we need to give this person a chance because we're going to be without designers soon. So I think she's better than nothing.

So let's give her a chance. And then I got to be an apprentice around somebody who was doing design from the 90s, which in Romania was definitely a rarity. So I was an apprentice for six months. I started doing some small projects. I actually built a donation flow that was launched. And it was so exciting to see my work in there, like my first Photoshop screens coming to life in the product. That was extremely exciting. And so then after six months of apprenticeship, I officially got, it was called UX Art

very pretentious. I loved it. And yeah, I became a UX designer. And so and then my career evolved from that point on. But I think that's the story in a nutshell. And I think it has a component that's very relatable in the fact that it was really hard. I mean, it sounds easy. I was able to tell this story in like five minutes. But the truth is that it was one day after another, just waiting, hoping, dreaming, not knowing. And

being rejected. And so it was a long journey until I eventually transitioned. Even if it sounds very quick now, it wasn't quick. And I had to go through all those, let's say, hard hours of not knowing whether I will ever be able to land a design job, whether it makes sense for me. Am I on the right path? Should I just give up and pursue something else? But sort of what

kept me going was this very strong intuition that I will like it. I will actually like it. Not everything, obviously. And you're not supposed to like everything about your job. That's a lie. You're not going to like everything about your job and you're not supposed to like it. But I felt like for most parts, it would be something that I would be happy to do.

So I kept pushing and then eventually it happened and it turned out to be the best thing that happened to me professionally, obviously looking back. So that's it. If you have anything on your mind, takeaways or top three ideas, I would love to hear it. It's also a great, great topic. Do it as a reflection exercise. We did start it from something where I believe most of us have to also start, which is like the reflection on what are the traits that would work

match, I guess, perfectly in this industry, right? So you mentioned things like collaboration, psychology, and understanding that you would work in different market segments. And that's really, really cool. I think like when I look back into why I stuck with design and why it was a natural fit for me, I would also start by saying the collaboration. Obviously, I think that is coming very obvious from my story because I'm

I really love to sit in a room with those people and brainstorming and ideating and solving problems and discussing different obstacles. Even like those tough moments when you feel you're stuck in your brainstorming and you just need to take a break. It's a beautiful moment when you look back on this because you go out, you drink coffee, you feel frustrated, you meet somebody next to the coffee stand, you talk to them and suddenly you get the spark and idea and in the back of your mind, you're thinking about it. And I just love being so excited and motivated and sort of engaged with something.

And when there are people around me that I feel are engaged, it's becoming a magic. So for me also, the collaboration was a really biggest motivation where I feel like it's a natural suit for me. The second part was the analysis. And I did mention that I'm an analytical person, but it's sort of manifested in the fact that when you're working with a lot of data, it has a collaborational process or very curious. Oh, by the way, yeah.

Another thing is curiosity, but I felt like I was also very curious and that led me to be very interested in the research. I was always the first person who would come and like do the research, like talk to users, let's talk to users and let's not waste time. Let's jump into the, I don't know, shopping mall and talk to people, make the field study and stuff like that. So even though it was not always very well structured, I felt like very excited to find that information. And when you, as the person who's always curious and wants to run research and doesn't afraid to talk to people,

I obviously would collect information and I need to start analyzing this information. And that puzzle also stick very well with me because naturally in my life, I love planning. I love organizing. I remember even in my master degree when we didn't even get to like personas and I had no idea what is persona, but we were working on the project and I was also collaborating with my teammates. And I remember that everybody was stuck. They just didn't know which direction to go. And I, again, I remember sitting back at home and like, I need to

put together who are we designing for without understanding what is persona. I remember the next day I came up and said like, here are all the patterns I see about our target users and we can just kind of tap on those needs and blah, blah. And I remember it was just like natural tap for me without even learning all the educational materials about design. I already felt like, oh, the patterns, the structuring, the analysis, the understanding, the big

picture that was like very natural to me and also it kind of worked itself out and then again even the things such as planning is also a big part what I like to do I like to plan the project I like to plan the survey I like to plan the questions I like to plan the workshop I like to think

how you're planning something, right? And then at the end, you see if it works or not. And then you can reflect and iterate next time. Something I've mentioned in the beginning of this episode, when you plan the workshop, you run it and you learn what works, what doesn't work, what you have to improve. This cycle is very interesting to me. And that's why I like to plan structure and then reflect on it.

And I guess the last thing that I also couldn't help but really love about this industry is to see the results in the real life. Because not always, even with interior design, I was not always able to see the final result. So you do the project and you build the fundamentals, right? You build the walls and stuff. But then the person who starts living in that interior or in that flat or house, whatever, they would start like...

living it through only the next half year and making it personal and making the interior actually work in life. And you will not be able to be a part of this anymore. So you will only see the results of it in one and a half year or so. And only if you're in a good relationship with the clients and they will invite you over. And so this is not something you do in UX.

design. In the UX design, you actually operate with data. You have a lot of data. You have a lot of analysis. You actually can understand the patterns and real picture, and you can quickly iterate. So all those things are just like very interesting to me. And I just, I don't know how, again, magically it became perfect match, at least for me. And a lot of people are still asking me, you know, sometimes like, oh, do you feel you're fulfilled? Do you sometimes ask yourself if that's the right industry? Or do you maybe sometimes have those hobbies or other interests?

I often struggle to answer those questions because I still feel like I like it so much and I keep wanting to develop and learn more about it and embrace new challenges that I sometimes don't have any life. And even if you go like outside and meet friends in the bar or something and they talk about, I don't know, different things, I don't know, like games and...

life in general, I feel very like in a bubble, not fitting well, because I'm so excited about design that I just don't have anything to add there. But living in a bubble is a different type of a problem when you're so excited about the industry and you don't want anything else in your life, but that you become a bit isolated from the world, which always has both sides to it, right?

I do have one last point before we close. I think that for anyone who's contemplating a career in UX design, we have a lot of supporting materials around that. And I actually created a full course that's meant to help you figure out whether UX is right for you and you want to start learning it and how to create a strategy to learn on your own. It's on Domestika.

I wanted to plug it here, not because I'm trying to grow sales, but because I think it's very relevant to this conversation. It's the most complete explanation that I've ever given to how to transition into UX design and how to figure out if UX is right for you. And one of the exercises that I proposed in there, it's something that I invented and it's called the Who I Am Canvas. And it's basically an introspection exercise where you go through your past experience.

your personality, your aspirations, your dreams, your network, even every resource that you have available. And you just create a map of yourself if you want. And I feel that that's the starting point to figuring out whether UX design is something that's worth pursuing for you or not.

maybe you haven't yet found the right career. So I would say write everything down that has to do with yourself and things that get you excited, things that you hate doing, things that you think you'll enjoy doing and things that you know you enjoy doing. So just write everything down. I like to call it a map of yourself and that will give you better clarity. I wasn't as intentional as I'm describing it here when I started out.

It was more intuition driven, but I feel that if I were to start over again, or if I am ever to contemplate a different career, then I would just sit down and do all this introspection work, which can feel pretty challenging, abstract, difficult. I'm speculating. I don't even know. I know what I'm writing about, but like just putting your thoughts on paper is very powerful exercise in itself because you get to get

them out of your head and then look at them, right? See them on paper. And so even the angle that you're looking at things is different from the messy insides of our thoughts to something that enables us to have more clarity. It's a very personal path. It's a very personal decision. Everybody will have their own story for choosing UX design and then transitioning into UX design.

But I think that that's what we should be focusing on. What makes it personal? On a personal level, what makes me drawn towards this industry? And just do that exercise. And it's also in my course, but it's also something that you can reach out to me on Instagram or to Anfisa. She has so much experience with helping people transition into UX design as well. So you can definitely find the guiding hand or the guiding materials to make you successful in this pursuit of

deciding whether you want to pursue a UX design career or not. So that's it. I think that's my final thought. Do you want to add anything to that? I agree with you completely. Like reflecting and mapping how you think you would be a great or be a fit, it's very essential. But what I would add to this is that to understand how it maps on the real life experience, I would also recommend to expose yourself to the real life experience, first of all, right? So maybe going to hackathons like it was for me, maybe doing your site projects and

Maybe going to events and meet people and ask them questions. To be very honest, I often still go to events because I don't know, like a lot of people stop going to events because they feel like, oh, it's just the same things. And like, what's the content that I learned there? But I still go there because I like to see new people. And often in those events here in Prague, I will see people who are just

trying to transition to design and they're having those very curious eyes and they want to meet somebody who knows something about design and they would ask questions. And I'm always like here for it. I love it. If you go to those events and just find their designers that are already in the industry, trust me, there will be people who would want to help you. They would give you all the answers that you need. I feel like this industry is very welcoming. I'm pretty sure you, Ioana, also experienced it. I definitely experienced it with the Estonian network. Just like, don't be afraid to expose yourself to those events too.

preview this industry for you so you can actually in a real life map how your trades would fit or not fit maybe also as well in this industry. And don't be afraid again to be this imposter in the room that came there that is not a real designer yet. It just doesn't have job title and stuff. Don't be afraid to do that because again, we have all been there and a lot of people transitioned and industry is very welcoming. They will all be very happy to help you even if you're still in the beginning of your career track.

I guess that's all I wanted to say. Nice episode, nice stories. I don't know if those stories are helpful or if you guys prefer listening to more like tangible lesson kind of style episodes, let us know as well in our Instagram or you can also submit topics in the anonymous link under the show notes. But yes, we are very curious about your feedback. Like I said, iteration, iteration, iteration.

So feel free to submit your topics or feedback and let us know what kind of style of the episodes works best for you. Otherwise, I think that would be it for today. Right, Iona? That's it, I guess. And send us your questions. Send us your ideas for podcast episodes. What we aim to do through these conversations is actually answering community questions and questions that you guys have. Just send over any idea on our Instagram page.

Honest UX Talks or on UX Goodies or on Feesign. And don't forget to rate us on Spotify just to show your small gesture of support for this conversation. We'll hear you next time and stay tuned for the next episodes and check out our past episodes as well. I think they're pretty interesting. Thank you for listening. Bye, everyone. Thank you. Bye-bye.