House of the Dragon' Season 2, Episode 4 Deep Dive. Plus: Ewan Mitchell!
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Welcome to Yada Yada. This season on Yada Yada Island. When we were new, they spoiled me. They even gave me a phone. But then, it's like I didn't exist. Don't take Yada Yada from your wireless carrier. Now with Metro, get that new customer feeling again and again. Introducing Metro Flex. Free 5G phones when you join, same deals as new customers when you stay. Only at Metro by T-Mobile.

Just bring your number and ID and sign up for an eligible plan. After 12 months, trade in and get our best deals on select devices. This episode is brought to you by The Home Depot. It's that time of year, so spread more joy with The Home Depot's giant holiday decor. Go big this holiday season with larger-than-life decor that really hits home. Be like my wife. She'll just go to Home Depot to see what they got cooking. She's always ready to plan for the holidays. Maybe that's a tree.

You can put together in a few clicks like the Grand Duchess. That sounds great. Or a huge eight foot towering Santa with poseable arms that a flame effect lantern that might be in front of my house or an eight and a half foot towering reindeer with illuminated flashing bells. That's the holiday spirit at the Home Depot. Shop in store online now at homedepot.com. But to unite the realm, I had to send the dragons to war. The horrors I have just loosed cannot be for a crown alone.

That is why I must believe what Viserys told me when he named me his heir. What Jaehaerys had told him, and what I will now tell you. What is it? Aegon the Conqueror's dream. He called it the Song of Ice and Fire. Greetings, and welcome to House of R. A Ringerverse podcast on the Ringer Podcast Network. I'm Mallory Rubin, and it is my absolute pleasure to invite you not only to Rook's Rest...

Everything's going to be fine. But also, back into the House of R. We've been decorating. We have. Joining me today, asking if she can have to make a war? It's Joanna Robinson.

I prefer you refer to me as an owl cursed to live in human form. Thank you so much. Barn owl. Love a barn owl. Jo, we are back to dive oh so deep. Profoundly. Into House of the Dragon, Season 2, Episode 4. They will not expect it.

Because it is fucking madness. And by it, I mean whatever the eventual runtime of this podcast today is. First, some very quick programming reminders. Over on the Ringerverse, the Midnight Boys. Pew pew!

Double action on Thursday once again. It's the Acolyte episode seven and it is the boys episode seven here on the House of R. We will also be covering the Acolyte episode seven on Thursday and then we will be back on Sunday night. The moment, the instant. Hot D episode five ends for Talk the Thrones with Chris Ryan.

All of that, by the way, available for you to watch on Spotify. Correct. For you to watch on the brand spanking new Ringerverse YouTube channel. Correct. While you're at your computer or on your phone because you're going to that YouTube channel to hit subscribe.

Go to TheRinger.com slash events and get tickets to the live show. Oh, my gosh. Where can people come hang with us? Oh, my gosh. We're going to be at the El Rey Theater. Yeah. What are we going to be doing? Oh, we're going to be talking. About stuff. About stuff. Yeah, with the gang. The team. The squad. We have a really good idea for our game this time that I'm very excited about. It's going to be a blast. Yeah. Also, Jomie did make a specific request that everybody who is attending be aware of one crucial thing. It is his birthday. Oh.

Yeah. So not only do you get to come to Ring of Earth Live, you get to come share Jomie's birthday with him. Wow. Who would want to miss that? How could you miss that? Present's not required, but also... The old your presence is the present. Yeah. You know? Gently suggested. Yeah. Join us. Also, if you want to wear costumes, again, I heard people were wearing costumes at the Talk of Thrones and I never got to see them. If you want to wear costumes, I would like to see them. So... Delightful. Wear them. Delightful. Joanna, how can the people follow along with...

To this year podcast. Wow. I'm so glad you asked me. Listen, here's what I suggest. Why don't you just subscribe to the pod and or the YouTube channel? Do it. Why don't you do both of those things? Yeah. Why don't you follow us on social? Do it. That might be a good thing to do. We're on Twitter. We're on TikTok. We're on Instagram. We're on, as we mentioned, did we mention YouTube? And last but not least.

Email us. Yes. Hobbitsanddragons at gmail.com. The email inbox has been bursting. Thank you, Steve. With the hottest of takes for Addi. And we love all of them. So, yeah. Send them along. Hobbitsanddragons at gmail.com. Lastly.

Friendly neighborhood spoiler warning. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's the same as always for a hot D-Pod. We will obviously be going beat by beat through this episode of television. Anything that has ever happened in House of the Dragons seasons one or two, it might come up today. Anything that's ever happened in Game of Thrones, it might come up today. In terms of the literary canon, we will be chatting about, quoting from Fire and Blood, Song of Ice and Fire throughout the pod for...

Context, history, insights, but anything that's the future of Fire and Blood. We're not going there. Separate. Separate little book section at the very end. You will have, as always, a real-time spoiler warning right on the precipice of that. Any other spoiler warnings?

Yeah, I'll just say that I got some feedback about talking about Dunkin' Egg because there's a new Dunkin' Egg TV show that's coming out. And we were talking about the Dunkin' Egg stories because I had been reading them and they were on my mind. And someone was like, hey, can you maybe not talk about – I don't think I actually spoiled anything. But people are being a little – they want to go in clean on Dunkin' Egg. So we are going to, like, reference it a little later on. But we're going to issue, like, a little mini – we're just going to mini spoiler warning that Dunkin' Egg. Quick one. Quick one. Yeah, just breeze through it. All right, Jo.

If I know the Riverlands, we have more disentangling ahead of us than the end of a Lyceum. So it's time to pot the red dragon and the gold episode for directed by Alan Taylor, written by Ryan Cottendall. This is the team.

You knew it was going to be a big one when you saw that. 56 minutes. Relatively compact compared to the run times this season so far. And yet, boy, was this a doozy. So let's start there. This is not a sentence, but an honor. The opening snapshot. Joanna. Mallory. We're going to hit every second of this episode, so we're going to keep the opening snapshot truly snappy today. Breezy. But...

Give us a taste. What did you think of this episode of television? I love this episode. I love seeing how well it was received as well. It seems like broadly people really loved it. I still think three is my favorite of the four we've gotten so far, but I thought this was an incredible episode of television. A really great blend of action and spectacle with character work. You know, you and I have talked so much about the way in which spectacle and the ending

of Game of Thrones could like sort of swallow character development and stuff like that and I did not feel like that was the case here so I loved that I do want to shout out first email that I want to shout out is from our listener Tyler who suggested that we should call Aegon was looking for a nickname yeah

Aegon, Chargerion. How do you feel about it? It's extremely strong. Yeah. Aegon, Chargerion. Aegon, the dragon cock was good, but Chargerion is tough to top. Hail, hail. Hail, hail. The conqueror of the kent. Aegon the conqueror, babe. Yeah. Chargerion. Great stuff. I love it. Thank you for that wonderful email and suggestion, Tyler. What is your...

Broad strokes take on this episode. Also, I'm sorry I didn't say it. Witch stuff. So much witch stuff. I'm so excited. Witch stuff go. Actually, not yet. We'll get there. Witch stuff hold. Put a pin in it. Big R. Wait.

Witch stuff just kind of like settling back into the grass. Yeah, I'll just like fold out and huff into my laptop and wait to go. Okay. Oh, man. I thought this episode was sensational. So much to parse and break down. So many things that I love. It made me so deeply emotional. I just thought this was like not only inside of the story a wonderfully rewarding experience, but to your point,

You could feel it in real time. People watching, people talking about it, people texting you, people jumping online. Like, it felt like a...

it felt like a rekindling yeah of that sunday night feeling yeah and i just like that's just like it's this really special wonderful thing that we cherish and it's been such a big part of our lives so like the idea of that being back is magical to me i got on the sunday night twitter uh like feed in a way that i haven't in a really long time and just like watching people's reactions pouring was really really fun yeah it was yeah yeah well and a ton of people were were like

Tune in to watch Talk the Thrones right when it hit. We're all having a blast together. That's great. What a joy. I can't believe we're already halfway through the season, but we've got four episodes left. Hopefully they're all bangers. Can't fucking wait. Also, by the way, we should mention, didn't mention this at the top, we have an interview today. We do. Who is joining us? Oh my gosh. Yeah. Cover your eye. Is it this one? That one?

It's Eamon One-Eye himself. Eamon Mitchell's here. Yes. Yeah. So that is very exciting because obviously it's a huge Eamon episode. So we will, after we break down the episode, have our chat with Eamon Mitchell. And then the book spoiler section will be at the end after that. Kinslayer. Delightful. Okay. Should we head to the bowels of a pleasure den for the deep dive? Always. In the bowels of a pleasure den. ♪

Magical. Joanna, we will start, as always, where the episode begins. This time it is with Damon the Dreamer. Nice. Having a normal one. Yeah. Caught in another dream state. This time, wandering into the throne room of the Red Keep. Now, the throne room as the setting of some sort of Targ vision or dream is...

This is the stuff Lionel indeed makes us think, of course, of Dany in the House of the Undying from A Clash of Kings.

An old man with dark eyes and long silver gray hair. Let him be king over charred bones and cooked meat, he said to a man below him. Let him be the king of ashes. And then immediately after that, of course, in the House of the Undying sequence, Dany wanders into a vision of Rhaegar talking about, not in the throne room, but still,

Prince, that was promised. Prophecy. The Song of Ice and Fire. Wonderful. Were you wishing that it had been snowing in the throne room when Matt Smith wandered in? No, that gives me PTSD now, honestly. Is it snow or is it ash?

I think it's really interesting that a lot of the trailer moments that we were like, what's that? What's that? What's that? We're like, oh, dream stuff, dream stuff, dream stuff. Got it. Incredible. I was thinking of the housey and dying a little later when Alice gives Damon something to drink, which we'll talk about in a bit. Yeah. Is that what is in your mug today? Yeah. Shade of the evening. Right. Right.

In Clash of Kings, they say, come with me to the House of the Undying and you shall drink of truth and wisdom. And a reminder of the House of the Undying, in addition to being like one of the sickest sequence that happened on the TV show and in the books, was a trap for Daenerys and her dragons. And so like, is this, are we watching a trap sequence?

For Damon. We're just going to try to suck her dry into a husk. You know what I mean? Yeah. Of magic. Okay. Of magic. Sure. Yeah. Why not both? Do you think we should start saying you shall drink of truth and wisdom at the beginning of every podcast? Let's do it. Cheers. Thanks for the new mug. Mallory brought us in these Dragon Egg mugs. Thanks for that, Mall.

Well, it felt better toasting with our dragon egg mugs or when we did like a little crossing swords thing with the chapstick. I think the chapstick was more authentically us, but this is on theme. Yeah.

Okay, so the throne room. Yeah. This has, of course, been a crucial, dare I say elemental, location for one Daemon Targaryen across House of the Dragon so far. It is literally where we first meet him. I'm there. In inversion of this dream sequence, Rhaenyra, Ser Harald, behind, gods be good, walking toward Daemon who is sitting waiting on the throne. And this room has been, across all of these great Daemon sequences, the site of both his...

The thing that he feels he has been robbed of. The thing that other people certainly think he seeks. Right. And also his shame. This is where, again, he met Rhaenyra, found him for the first time. This is where Viserys ousted him at the beginning of the series premiere after that air for a day. Tough one, still. The Stepstones return. Where he debuted a truly ill-considered haircut. I thought it was...

I thought it was great. I thought it was great and I thought it looked great under the driftwood crown, though, because he did immediately hand the crown over. Then, yeah, maybe maybe we should have played out the string on that one a little bit more. Damon, all the hair works. Didn't we just decide that he couldn't get all the blood out? So he's like, fuck it, I'll cut it off. Yeah. You know, I think it's it's whether it was the staining of the blood or just the grayscale exposure concerns.

Who can say? Either way. Who can say? Crabfeeder, Christmasism still. Viserys asking him a second time in the fourth episode after he took Rhaenyra to the Bowels of Pleasure Den. This is the site of the Laena and Rhaenyra dances. Some interesting charge moments there. And of course, like our favorite, the Viserys crown assist in the eighth episode. And then the... Daemon. Yeah. Slaying. He can keep his tongue.

I love that it's like, yeah, so much has happened for Damon in this room, more than any other character, I would say. Yeah. And maybe Viserys, you could argue. But this idea of like his...

good guy moment. Like, we get the crown drop in a second. And it's just sort of like, as we know from behind the scenes, this is just like a somewhat improvised moment. But like, we talk about it all the time when Daemon picked up Viserys's crown. This is like the moment where we're like, it's good in him. I can feel it. Like, it's there. Yeah. You know? And you know, he feels that pride in himself too because it was such a big part of what he called back to with Rhaenyra with then on Dragonstone. Did I not put the crown up?

put the crown on your head. I thought it was really notable that

Because this is not reality, because this is a dream state and in theory any circumstance can manifest, Daemon walks into this private setting, right? It's just him and Rhaenyra and what they carry between them. There's no like waiting assembled throng like when he came back from the Stepstones or when Viserys last entered that room on the Long Walk. This is just his ghosts and his judgment, right? It's not about glory or celebration. And it also is fun to think about

Whether the statue of Viserys that we know has been added to the throne room, which like on the one hand, Daemon doesn't know, but like he would probably presume had been carved at this point, is maybe they're watching over them. Yeah, I don't think I, I think I looked for Viserys at the Trident. I looked for Viserys there. I looked for Viserys there and I didn't see him, but. Oh man, I love the framing too.

seeing Damon approaching through those barbs of steel. And the dream nature of the muffled dialogues he's walking in, you know, and he's like, speak plainly, but like, yeah, that dreamy fog. You know, to your point about how so much of this was in the trailer and we were kind of like, ooh, intriguing, what is this? I, on the dialogue being muffled and foggy felt actually like in notable contrast to the crispness of the visuals, which weren't

heavily altered and distorted to make us think we were in a different plane of reality. It's like you could mistake that for real life, which is part of what is so, for Damon, you would imagine, destabilizing about it. Right, and they haven't done that yet. I don't know if they will eventually, but they haven't done any, like, whoa, camera tricks to be like, this is a dream, you know? So he finds...

Young Rhaenyra. And what does she say to him, Joanna? She says a bunch of stuff. David Peterson, who does all the language for House of Dragon, Game of Thrones, Dune, just your go-to guy if you want a fictional language. I don't know why I love this. I just love this about him. He loves posting extra things on AO3, our cover of our own, the fan fiction website. And so he posts this with a muffle dialogue.

He posted on AO3. So Young Rhaenyra says this from the start. She says, it's been said that Targaryens are closer to gods than to men. We talk about this a lot. Yeah. In my eyes, you were a god, Daemon Targaryen, the prince of the city, the lord of Flea Bottom.

I was an innocent. You exploited me and abandoned me. You sullied my name at court. You empowered my rivals. You tried to make my ruin. You put me on that throne, and you love me, and you hate me for it. And then this is the part that we could hear. You created me, Damon, yet you are now set on destroying me, all because your brother loved me more than he did you. And then, yeah. Scenes from a marriage? Scenes from a marriage. Yeah.

from an uncle and niece. Totally normal interaction. Scenes from an incestual marriage. I love calling back to the closer to gods than men Rhaenyra Viserys conversation. But also the Prince of the City, the Lord of Flea Bottom. These like early titles, titles, titles that we had for Damon. You know, the damn words. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Like...

Ah, absolutely fantastic. This was interesting too because, and we'll talk about this elsewhere in the pod at more length when we get to the Aemond, Aegon, High Valyrian. Yes. Public flogging there. We saw Daemon and Rhaenyra

speak fluently in High Valerian so often in season one and it was this thing that made their relationship feel like fully realized and distinct in a way that like other people were not able to participate in and so hearing Rhaenyra speak Valerian here but Daemon speak English speak the common tongue like he's out of sync with his own

life. Yeah, I've been thinking a lot about that ever since I like, I tried to talk about this on Talk of Thrones. I don't think it was really the format for it because Chris was like, why did you watch a 20 minute video where people speak high of Larry? And I was like, you don't know me or my life. I don't know. Chris is, I have been staying current on my longtime favorite podcast to watch. And Chris is, I would say every 47 seconds dropping some sort of nugget or factoid now on the watch.

About House of the Dragon? Oh, yeah. Oh, he's in. He's in deep. I am so proud. He got Willem Blackwood right in the outline. It was amazing. Incredible. But re-watching all the moments where they spoke High Valyrian in season one. So not just Rhaenyra and Daemon, but all the moments. Yes. Because there's like the Dragon Keepers as well and like whatever it is. Sweet little Luke. Yeah. Yeah.

stumbling his way through, et cetera. It just becomes so apparent, this, like, bubble that they create. Rob Mahoney talked about this a lot when we were covering Shogun, this idea that, like, this bubble of language that you can create into this own little, like, private world that you can have with someone even when you're in public. Yeah.

which has done so well in the Abe and Nagon conversation. Yes. But I don't know. I think this is brilliant. I love this. All the dream stuff has just been so good. Really working for me. It's been so good. Witch stuff, go. Ready? I'm so ready to talk about witches. John, we might need a witch stuff, go graphic for this episode. Think about it. What did you make of it, Jo? What do you think it tells us?

specifically this created idea that Daemon, either this magically manipulated or cursed castle influenced dream or Daemon's subconscious and what is bubbling to the fore because of the place he finds himself, this idea that he himself is saying, like, I created Rhaenyra. How much of that to you is about the idea of like,

like, power and the almost arrogance of that. Like, I have the ability to forge somebody else's circumstance or my allegiance lends heft and credence to her claim, which, like, even Rhaenyra herself said in season one, right? How much of it is about the shame of having to confront the fact that she became heir, as Viserys plainly says, right?

at the bonfire because he had to save the realm from Daemon. Or as Rhaenyra will then tell Daemon during their harrowing, riveting fight in the second episode of this season, he was not afraid of you, Daemon. He could not trust you any more than I can trust you. I think also it's this idea of like, when you rewatch season one, he's constantly, in his conversations with her, constantly being like,

You and I, we're the same. We're not so different, you and I. We're not like your dad, my brother, right? We're strong. We're dragon riders. We are fearsome, blah, blah, blah. So he is, in a certain respect, molding her in his image in a way that Viserys doesn't. And I think he always took a lot of pride in that. But I think what he's experiencing now with his

haunted therapy sessions that he's having in Harrenhal is like, was that a good thing? What kind of ruler would Rhaenyra be or, you know, what would her path in life have been if I had never, you know, strapped a...

you know, necklace around her when she was a child. Shared piece of our history. Yeah. Wonderful gift. Still creepy and weird, but wonderful. I love that. It makes me think, too, of later in the episode when our guy, Will in Blackwood, says, like, she had the true blood of the dragon. And it almost felt...

Like, Daemon would receive that with simultaneously jealousy and fierce pride, right? Yeah. Like, she was and is worthy. But also just like, yes, all of that. But other people see in her what he wants them to see in him. All of that and also slight regret, I think. But that's fresh, brand new. Oh, yeah. Emotions for Daemon. He is not inclined to parse his regret, but he is being confronted with it here in a way that is undeniable. Yeah. Undeniable. I love that. So he slices off her head with Dark Sister. Yeah.

Very tough. Of course, even though this is a dream state, it does cause us to think about the fact that Damon has, in fact, it must be said, we have an obligation to remark upon it, killed his wife before. I mean, Murklock and all. Murklock and all. Definitely also the dress that she's wearing here is the dress that she was wearing in the finale last season. And there's two things that he did in the finale. Many things, but two things he did. He put the crown on her head. Yep.

And he choked her. Yes. And so I don't think it's a coincidence. I mean, the beheading of her in this sequence makes me think, made me immediately think of Weymond. Of course. Even though he only took half of Weymond's head. But made me think of Weymond in that moment. But also just made me think of, like, his hands on her throat. Like, he choked her. Horrible. So, like...

And the way that I was... He was being haunted by that memory. The way that I was thinking about it is just sort of like... Because I just wanted to double check and make sure it was the same dress. And so I was rewatching that scene where he chokes her, which is horrifying. And the way that she looks at him... Oh, yeah. You know what I mean? Like scales falling from her eyes. Something is broken. Yeah, this is who you are. And like...

The way she almost tauntingly says, like, you don't know about the prophecy. Yeah. Which is echoed later in the pathetic, you're pathetic sort of thing. So it's not just like a broken trust, but just sort of that idea of like, you were a god to me, as this young Rhaenyra says at the start of the scene. And now he's like, that's not ever who he's going to be to her again. That's so insightful because like we have the, I have challenges enough moment in the fight.

Which, nothing about the particulars of their circumstances are relatable to the people watching the show or reading the story, obviously. But, like, that element felt so true to life to me of, like, when just you reach the point with somebody where you kind of can't tolerate that.

Yeah. The things about them that you used to find endearing anymore, but, like, what you're identifying is a different level entirely of the shattered illusion and how that illusion is the thing that actually obscures the truth of who they are, right? When you're younger, when you're enchanted, whatever the case may be. And, like, Damon...

is in most respects unchanged. Like, he has had experiences that have shaped him and he's evolved like every character, of course. We love a character on an arc. He's certainly on an arc right now. Well, yeah. But he, yeah, we've been talking about this arrested development for Damon. Yes, and this muddled, like the defining, this is the gray character has always been true for him. It's a way in which... And so Rhaenyra's perspective is the thing that has shifted, not Damon's. Absolutely. She's grown up. Yeah.

Allison has grown up. I think it's one of the... I don't know that this... I don't think this was intentional at all. But, like, one of the silliest things in the casting is that, like, Matt Smith looks pretty close to the same that he did when we first met him in season one, episode one of House of the Dragon. Does this bother you more or less than Olivia Cooke being three years older than her canonical children? She's only one year older than Tom Clancarty. All right, that's three years as Ewan. Yeah, so...

Olivia Cooke herself has been recently being like, it's pretty stupid, right? They just look like peers. Somehow I've moved on from it for this while. It doesn't bother me only because they're so good at what they do. They're incredible. But Fabian Frankel and Matt Smith and Reesey Fonz are the three who are still here. And I would say...

Fabian looks pretty much the same. I think the hair changes have made him look less like the dashing young whatever and a little more ridiculous now with my haircut. I saw a photo of his stunt double and they had to put that dumb haircut on his stunt double and I felt so bad for him. Anyway. I feel like they slightly aged...

Otto and Corliss up this season. Oh, and Corliss too. Of course. And Rainey's. Yes. I agree with all of that. I just think they've done the least with Matt Smith. And I'm not mad about it, but I think it, whether intentional or not, really drives home that Arrested Development idea. Yeah, second time. Yeah. It's a great call. It's a great call. Demon, we're looking at his hair. He's looking at something else. It's the severed head of Rhaenyra on the ground, bleeding freely.

It's not just blood in the mortar and hair and all some blood on the floor here. In the grout. You're never going to get it out of the grout. It's never going to happen. This is what you always wanted, is it not? Yeah. But is it? Her out of the way.

Do you think that this is Daemon asking himself this? Do you think that it is the magic of Harrenhal? Alice is working. Do you think that those things are entwined? It's how the magic amplifies whatever is within. This is a super soldier serum. I do. I think all of this stuff comes from inside of him. And Alice is just playing him like an instrument and just sort of like plucking the threads of like that are most sensitive to him. What instrument would Daemon Targaryen be? A lute. I was just going to say a lute. No.

But perhaps I was incepted by you saying plucking, but I like to think that we just both went loot. Yeah. Wonderful stuff. Perhaps because loot train is on the mind. Different spelling. No. Never. Loot train, no? No. Okay. All right. Move over, Grover. Oscar Tully is here. Damon!

Because Rhaenyra's severed head starts to say that there is a raven and he wakes to find that this is what Ser Simon Strong is telling him in real life. There's a great little moment where Daemon sees the blood, the beheading blood. Totally. On his hand and then it kind of vanishes. So you really have that heightened sense of the. Whoever did that. It's incredible. Because it's like quick and then it's gone.

And he's like looking at his hands like, did I actually see that? So the bleed, you know. The bleed was thin, you said. Yeah. Where the walls are thin, right? She said it in this episode too. Alice said sleep is thin. I know we have a lot of important stuff to talk about, but can we actually just because you've already taken us to Fit Watch already. Yeah.

Can we just spend a moment on Sir Simon Strong's lush, resplendent eggplant velvet drip? I'd be honored. Which I thought was sensational. It was wonderful. I told you that it reminded me of Bronze Yon Royce. Yeah. One of my faves of all time. Yeah.

Jan Royce, who used to wear his like bronze breastplate and then like a fur line silky robe over it, just like fit lord. Great stuff. Jan Royce. This is what Simon Strong is giving for me. This was sensational. It's so great that he's here. Love to see that he gets the sir in the opening credits as well. Simon Russell Beale.

Fantastic stuff. Sir Simon and Damon. Yeah. Make their way through the frankly dilapidated halls of

I don't know what star rating Harrenhal has currently, but it can't be a good one. It's not good. It can't be a good one. Excited to chat later about the random black goat who is milling about. You'll have some lovely insights coming on that later in a different context. And Simon tells Damon that over the past fortnight, Joanna, we love a time for a bit of time frame specificity. We get one here. Over the past fortnight. This is even more confusing. Okay, go ahead. Okay.

Go ahead. This is the time frame for Kristen's campaign so far. Okay, so Kristen has been doing this for two weeks. Yeah. But later Allison says it has just been a few weeks since Viserys died, and I wish she hadn't said that. I was so... I've referenced this before just because it was a thing that happened this year on television that really worked its way into my forever heart. There was a moment, an instantly iconic moment on this season of Survivor where one of the characters...

Characters. Real person. One of the cast members, one of the contestants, kept trying to use the word several. Jelinski. And Jeff Probst was just dismayed by Jelinski's use of several, which was not correct. And it became a running bit throughout the season. And so it made me... This from Allison made me think a little bit of Jelinski. Like, maybe she's using...

weeks very liberally because you know months are made up of weeks who can say how much time it's been 12 weeks some might say months but not i not i allison hightower great stuff great stuff so over that fortnight rosby and stokeworth have fallen to kristin who simon assumes reasonably

is surely making his way to Harrenhal. And he explains to Damon, what did you call Harrenhal in our notes, Valerie Rubin? Harry HQ. Really funny. Go ahead. Harry HQ. Oh, Harry H. Yeah.

I think sometimes it's just like my OCD where despite the extreme astonishing length of our outlines and like this would not matter. I'm like, if two extra letters takes this to one more line. Wow. Maybe that's what happened. I don't know. No, it seems like it. It's right on the margin there. And I'm looking at it now. I'm like, is that why I did that? That's definitely why you did that. So Simon tells Damon both houses.

cited that sad business with the usurper's son in their declaration. I love this. I loved this because they're on the move. Yes. The camera's like behind them and Simon Russell Beale just sort of tosses it away. So like it hits for Damon and it hits for all of us but he's not trying to like necessarily trying to like wound Damon in this moment but all of us are like, ooh. Yeah, Damon has to confront the fact that the thing he did with Blood and Cheese has genuinely undeniably swung

swung the numbers to the Greens. He enters our... one of our favorite rooms, this dining chamber, which I still love. And at the dining table, Damon finds neither a delicious offering, Joanna, of aged venison, nor any black cabbage, nor any poisoned, who can say, peas. He does find, however, the...

Hail and hearty. Oscar Tully, who was there instead of his grandsire, Grover, because presumably Grover, you know, we hear here is alive thanks to the meager drink. One feather pillow away from death. One feather pillow. No one with a leaking anus at the dining table. And so that's nice. That's nice, Joe. As far as we know. Question for you. Elmo, Oscar's father, kind of alluded to here, so killed off without a scene in House of the Dragon.

Oscar identified as the heir to Riverrun. This means no Kermit Tully. So is your read on this, who is his older brother in the book, that the people making House of the Dragon are just like, the Sesame Street stuff, it's just too much. Let's just go right to Oscar. I didn't put this email in our notes, but I was just reminded of it, so I want to read it from our listener, Ryan. It is titled The Demuppetification of House Tully. Yes! And it said, um...

could not stand by silently without commenting on what Mr. Condell has done to the proud history of House Tully. Lord Elmo Tully being dead off screen and unnamed, fine, but Kermit seems to have emerged into his younger brother, Oscar. Yeah. He of the less conspicuously Muppeteen name. Justice for Sir Kermit. Yeah, they're like, Oscar, this could just be a

a person's name. I just shout out Ryan for the word demuffification and Muppeteen. The Muppeteen name. Yeah. If we have the pleasure of having Ryan Condal back at the end of the season, let's not forget to ask him about this. I will not sit silently by at this Kermit erasure. Oh, Kermit. I was looking

I thought Oscar was so hilarious and delightful, but I was bummed about Kermit. Speaking of Oscar being hilarious and delightful and having to confront some... This kid was great, by the way. Genuinely good. The moment where, you know, we go like the kind of initial stumbling through the introduction, and the moment where Damon sits down in a way reminded me of...

He sits in a way so that Oscar, like, can't access his chair easily, which reminded me of how we have to access the chair. No, no, no, no, no. Let's be clear. How you actively choose to sort of... If I pull the chair out, then I can't remember the exact way it's supposed to be. And so it's just easier for me to... Yeah, but imagine that awkward, like, fish flop that you do into the chair anyway.

Shout out House Tully. Imagine that, but you also have a sword that's too big for you buckled to your side. And that's what happened to poor little Oscar here. Wonderful stuff. They then share a not at all uncouth or astonishing conversation. Steve, can we hear this quote? Well, my time is short and I have need of an army. Perhaps you might place a feather pillow over his head and speed along your inheritance. I love my grandsire.

Like a father. My own Lord Father died suddenly. Himself a young man. Lord Grover raised me in his stead. All very touching. Are you here to speak with your grandsire's voice for House Tully in the Riverlands? While he still lives? That is not our way. Then you're of no use to me.

Okay, incredible stuff, genuinely. Yeah. All very touching. It was honestly up there for best moments of the season. I love my grandson like a father. Let's take people behind the curtains. Yeah. You texted me, you texted Chris, and you asked us if the screenshot of Sir Simon's reaction to this astonishing display should be your new Slack avatar. Where are you on this? Check your Slack. You did it! I did it.

Wonderful stuff. I don't want to check my Slack right now because I see just a very high DM total. So I'm going to wait. I'm going to wait until later. Great, great stuff. Great stuff. Damon says...

It's no wonder the Brackets and the Blackwoods went to war without leave. House Tully is a fish with no head. And I thought this was such an interesting... This is fantastic. The Riverlands, they just really never disappoint. But also I just love in Thrones or World of Ice and Fire in general when they use the sigil to insult or compliment or whatever. You know what I mean? House Fossilway, this is rotten apple. You know what I mean? Something like that. Just like...

Like some sort of fun. Excited to spend some Fossway Apple time with you next year. Can't wait. Let's be honest. The house telly sigil is one of the weaker ones. It is. I mean, it does ultimately lead to the Blackfish, which is great. Elena had nothing to say about it, right? I miss Elena. Man. I could have...

easily done with aletta just running down every single sigil in house words and giving her commentary or even just like names really anything barbara well what's your name again barbara incredible so this moment from damon i i thought this was striking because on the one hand this actually is like a reasonable observation right the tullys are not in control absolutely their domain

But we spoke throughout season one. We love Riera. We are team black. But we spoke throughout season one about how this failure in diplomacy, in relationship management was a blight.

on their campaign. And you just feel so keenly here that Daemon has not only no aptitude for this, genuinely no interest in it. Like, how is this going to be an approach that engenders loyalty? And throughout Thrones, like, we always have to think, is it fear? Is it love? Is it both? He's just simply not a politician, nor has he ever been, right? Like, just think about him...

Think about him at the wedding banquet. Yes. Right? When Ray is... Gerald. Yeah, Joe Royce comes up, right? And he's just like, you literally killed this woman. You can't spare some diplomacy for House Royce right now. So it's like, this has always been his way. He's a general.

He's a fighter. He's a warrior. Those are all his skills. But diplomacy is not one of them. Unfortunately, it's not necessarily one for Rhaenyra either. So I don't know who we can look to on team. Jace. Jace is our diplomat. Right? Jace did great in the Vale and in the North. We'll have some notes for Jace this episode. And so let us not forget that he won the North of the Mail. If I'm picking someone in that family to send, I'm sending Jace. He has some skill. Absolutely. Yeah, I think that's right. I agree. Okay.

I quickly have to say like this, who can remember little line from Damon about asking for clarity on whether it was the Brackens or the Blackwoods. I did find this to be an amusing like wink to the audience about, okay, everyone's excited that the world is widening and we're meeting more people, but like it can get

confusing to keep all of this straight. Eric and Arik, who can remember? Oh, wow. I thought we might have reached the end of the Cargill's earning a mention, and yet, here they are one more time. Their memory lives on. Wonderful stuff. Well, they're not in the opening tapestry, so they don't matter as much as a rat catcher, I guess. Oh, man. Jeez. This is just something Damon should

No, this is important. This matters. Yes, he should have, first of all, he should educate himself on the Riverlands, which he's trying to manage. Secondly, he should already know this because this is very famous Westerosi history. So him even asking Sir Simon in the previous week, I could like excuse it because I'm like,

it's for the audience that he's asking yeah this is a it's really funny and to me the way I seriously rewound this line like 15 times because the way he says it sounds very 11 very Dr. Who to me yeah yeah yeah like I loved it but but yeah I mean anyway no aged venison for Damon but do you think he's enjoying any any fish fingers and custard

I would not eat anything in that castle, to my earlier point. Speaking of things one could eat, I suppose, let's talk about the goat, okay? Oh, yeah. Not the goat.

Okay. Haunted Sigil Watch 2024. I love this. Yeah. This is already, to be very clear, this was already in my notes before. Some people were tweeting about it on Sunday, but this was already in my notes because I missed the bats and I wasn't going to miss any more. So last week we got all these bats. Yep. And if you want to talk about Sigil Watch. Yes. House Lost Stone and House Went. Yes. Both of which...

had possession of Harrenhal, have a bat and then many bats on their sigil. Right? The three hounds that we see at the end of the scene who are like, that's House Clegane. That's their sigil. Cameron really lingers on those sweet little pups. I thought that was great. Wonderful. Great mood setting, but also that's House Clegane's sigil. And then the one goat

Fargo Hote, the goat. So these are all people who took possession of Harrah Hall. And so my pal in yours, Joe Magician, was like, this means that Damon is seeing future something, something. I was like, no, these are waking things. So I think these are just Easter eggs for the audience. These don't strike me as like a portent of the future. Interesting. Because if he saw these moments in his dreams, I would say... No, he sees Lena while awake. So maybe the bleed is...

So those dogs are definitely just there. And the bats are definitely there. And the goat is there. And the goat is there. So I think those are just like fun little moments for the audience. I love it. I love it. Also, I mean, the goat, we should say, makes me think of the witch. Definitely. And the faceless men consider the black goat to be one of the faces of the many-faced god. So that's, is this an Alice Rivers thing? We don't know.

We genuinely don't know. No clue. There's so much we don't know about Alice Rivers. Keep your eyes peeled for a flayed man or any other House Harrenhal landlord sigil that you want to keep an eye out for. I love this. A mockingbird somewhere in some room. Janos Lentz severed head. Remember that guy? I do. Found in a puddle of his own making. One of my favorite sand lines ever. Ed, fetch me the block. All right.

Joe, we leave Harrenhal briefly. We will return to head to another favorite setting of ours, the docks of Driftmark. I regret to inform you that this week we have neither hot bread nor warm broth. Wow. I know. I know. That's dismal. We have only a scene that made me want to die inside. Instead, we have a soul shredding.

the moment that made me want to like crawl under a rock forever and die because okay like yeah this was this was so intense so good right so like yeah Rhaenyra Rhaenys meets Alan here not to be confused with Adam his brother and when she like cups his face says it is comely

And his mother must have been so beautiful. So it's sad because obviously she's thinking about like whoever this was that Corliss cheated with her. Yeah. You know, also like he he looks enough like a young Corliss or whatever. But I was just like, oh, man, like she's touching his face and it's so awkward and painful. And like, I don't begrudge her it, but I'm just like, what if you're Alan in that moment? Like, what do you do? What do you do? This was so deeply painful for us.

All three of them in the scene and for all of us watching at home. Absolute anguish. Anguish! Corlys finds it too anguish-inducing to allow it to continue, and so he sends Alan back to work. Back to duty. A lot of barnacles, Jo. It's taken a while. Love or duty. To chip them away. He and Rhaenys, they speak of the unspoken, his bastard son. Steve, can we hear this?

He was the sailor who plucked you from your watery grave. Yes. You did not think to mention it? I did not think it relevant. I know who he is, Corlys. Alan's past is no fault of his. He saved his lord's life. He should be raised up and honored, not hidden beneath the tides. Is this why you came? To subject me to an inquisition?

No, actually, she came because Bela summoned her to Dragonstone to help with the Black Council. It's miserable over there. Dragonstone. To go try to keep everything together for Rhaenyra's faction. Does it feel nice that we can confirm for non-book readers it's been really tough for us to not be able to talk about this directly, but that Alan and his brother Adam are Corlys' illegitimate sons. Yes. Um,

The reason his brother is looped into this, right, is from that line, he owes you, brother, he owes us. Right? Okay. So these brothers, born of Corlys. Yes. Yes. That's why we've been spending time with these random guys who we've never met before. Yes. And it seemed to us, we had a similar read on this, that...

This was not Renise realizing this for the first time. This is something she has known. Yeah. But she is still having to confront it. Having to speak the unspoken. Yeah, literally stare Alan in the face. She didn't have to call him.

cup and touch that face, but she did have to confront the fact that they are together. Alan and Corliss have shared this meaningful experience. They're in each other's lives. Corliss is not telling her about that. What a deeply unboring circumstance, again, for all parties. You mentioned on Talk the Thrones, I thought this was a great shout, that this

this line from Renise encouraging Corlys to raise Alan up was like the anti-Cat Stark. Yeah, yeah. That's a meaningful thing. When we see that scene with Cat and Talisa in Thrones and Cat says...

all this horror that's come to my family, it's all because I couldn't love a motherless child. She is, of course, putting more of that weight and responsibility on her shoulders than is warranted. But it's such a memorable moment because it is an acknowledgement that while, of course, in a marriage, in a relationship, that would be a painful thing to have to confront, of course, that was not actually. That's bastard. I just don't know. I can't even open this envelope where we need to talk about. If everyone knows, we're welcome.

We won't get into all of it, but Ned couldn't even just have told Kat. Just a little aside. On the side. Okay.

But it's also always just like an interestingly tough thing about Kat is like, we like Kat. We're supportive of her. She's an absolute asshole to this innocent child. Like, what does it mean to treat a child that way and make them feel like they're not, that they don't belong and that they're not a part of the family? And we hear like, you know, all these moments from John where he talks about where he had to sit at a feast or whatever. But we get, I mean, the one that really sticks with me is just seeing it firsthand when he goes to check on, to kiss Bran. Yeah.

And she's like, I want you to leave. And you can just feel that venom. And so, like, we know that when Renise is saying this, like, it takes a level of strength that not everybody would be able to muster. So it really is meaningful. I think it's worthwhile thinking about this idea in the context of several conversations we've had with Corliss this season about an heir. Yes. Who's his heir? Yes, absolutely. Speaking of...

And also, like, the conversations that happened last season about the three strong boys who we love. But Vaiman's like, guess what? They don't fucking look like us. And I don't, you know, and it's like, here are two men who look like Corlys, you know. Can we talk for a second here? Because we'll just have so much to cover when we actually get to Rooks for Us later. Let's hit this part here.

This conversation in the wake of the episode about how this scene is, like what bearing this scene is having on, certainly not for everybody, but some people's interpretation of Renice's decision. A lot of people. Because this was Chris. Yeah, I've had multiple people hit me up and ask about this. This was Chris's interpretation and a lot of people were asking, like, did this conversation inform Renice's moves at the end of the episode? And I just do not understand.

think so at all. Maybe there's a moment in her death where she can think, you know...

But she's always been like, you have family around you, Bela and Reyna, like, you know, all this sort of stuff like that. So I don't think it's like, he'll be fine. He has his illegitimate children. I think, I just don't think this is, has anything to do with her decision to go. Yeah. I think this is just a moment before her death so that we, the audience, can witness. I agree. You know, because as book readers, we don't have this. So we don't know if Renise ever knew or anything like that. And so it's just like, she knew. She wasn't,

pleased about it but she wasn't like cat about it you know and they had that moment before she dies I think that's why it's there not to be like a motivator for her to do anything yeah I agree completely I think to be clear like

people interpreting this, I think the episode allows for that interpretation. Sure, sure. So, in a way that I find unfortunate. I'm not saying it's a baffling takeaway. Yeah, no, not at all. I think we're in exactly the same place here. So I think, you know, I understand why inside of the context of this episode this would be the read that some people are having. I think that's a, in an episode that I like,

I think that's a bummer because... Do you think the solve is to let Corliss and Rainey have one more, like, goodbye scene before she goes? Or move this kind of a moment with Alan up earlier in the season. Like, have it in last week? Yeah, and I think the thing then we lose is what presumably... We haven't watched Beyond This, we don't know, but what presumably will be, like...

this wrenching regret that Corliss carries with him that, you know, they are together at the Black Council in a couple additional sequences, but they don't, as far as we know, at least have any other, like... Goodbye. ...moment together. This is kind of their last real moment, just the two of them. Yeah. And so for him to have to...

with that, that like this was their parting. This is how they say goodbye. I mean, similar to like, Alison's going to have to deal with how she spoke to Aegon before he went into battle, right? I have some notes. I do not think that Rhaenys is a character who would say, my husband slept with another woman, so I should just go die now. I have no reason to live. I just don't think that's the show.

I feel like she would just like move to Dragonstone and spend more time with Bela. Like, I just don't think, you know. They had their quarrels and their separations. And that's the other thing, like this relationship really feels like one of the great successes of the show so far. You know, they have like, we had the moments in season one where we celebrated their active partnership. And then we had the moments where they celebrated them calling each other out on how that part, that active partnership could feel like a,

a farce or like a tool that you could use to project your own desire. Yeah. And then the tenderness. I just think it's a. Of the reunion. I just think it's a completely unintentional. Yeah. Proximity. Yeah, I agree. I agree. Okay. Speaking of proximities, let's talk about some moon tea because it's going to be right there when Lyra walks in later. But first, let's talk about how it gets to the room. For a while. For a while. Bring in Allison some moon tea. When he knocks on the door.

He calls us, Allison, to drop the stone dragon. I would call it a sign and or a portent. A sign or a portent? Yeah. A portent or a sign? Both. I just like...

One of the great things about potting with you is, like, even when we are not literally together watching something, I feel that you are there with me. And so later when I got us, like, plotting, you're plotting without me, I was like, and scheming. Wonderful stuff. So Alicent drops the stone dragon that Viserys dropped in the second episode of the first season that she had repaired for him, touching him so deeply. This guy was really won over by one gift. Yeah.

an act of kindness. She gorilla glued his Lego and he's like... Boy, are the stone masons, you know, they have no plans to pour on now that Aegon has destroyed the Lego set and so who is here to repair it? Perhaps no one. And Jo, I think that might be the symbolic point. Oh, no. Yeah. Yeah. So what were they talking about in episode two of season one when Viserys dropped that dragon for the first time? They were talking about

Historia. Valyria. Alicent was asking, do you believe that Westeros can be another Valyria, your grace? And he said, that depends. Whether you speak of the Freehold at its height or at its fall, over a thousand dragons and navy large enough to span the seas of the world, the glory of old Valyria will never be seen again until the spin.

They have to do an old Valeria show at some point. They have to. I hope so. I love the way this dragon, in addition to the way it functions as a harbinger in this episode, we'll get the egg on glass wine pitcher with a dragon on it later. I love the way, too, though, that this felt like a time machine. Like, it ported us back to that memory, and it reminds us of...

the life that we've watched the characters live either together or at odds with each other i just thought that was like really effective it's it's you know nothing is quite robert's feather in terms of how it like hits our hearts but i love the little bits of visual shorthand across the series that like take us back in time with a character i just love that yeah like the page torn from the book or you know there's just like these various tokens and moments of memory um

Another spinoff icon. Yeah, we should do a list of all the things that are like, let's go to Corliss's Hall. Okay. Yeah. So Orwell comes in and I just have some notes. We have new brand new Dragon Egg mugs. Yeah. But we have some notes for the maesters. Yes. Which is like, can you please brew the moon tea in something less distinctive? We've seen this

particular mug a few times. Though I went back and watched when Rhaenyra took her moon tea and shout out Melos because he brought it in like this bejeweled glass thing. It was not. He had a lot of goblets in earthenware because of all of the maggot treatment. You know? Vast offering. Yeah, maybe.

His moon tea mugs were filled with magnets. His registry was always open. He's like, I guess I'll do this decorative blown glass thing instead. But yeah, the moon tea mug is so distinct. I just like, why would you ever, if the aim is discreet, walking this one mug through the hallway as they often do, they're like, here it is. I know. Here it is, your grace. The secret tea always in the same shaped vessel. It reminds me of after the...

The Joffrey Margery wedding episode, season four, episode two. One of my friends made a Photoshop of, you know, the great shot of Tyrion lifting the poison chalice. And it just had like, she changed it into him holding a box of rat poison that just said like poison across because it's like such a conspicuous, intentionally so visual, but it feels like that here. Joanna.

Take me through this scene, this moment, Allison's history with Moon T. It's a Moon T download. That's a weird thing to say about Moon T. Okay, listen. It's crucial to the parting of the ways of Allison and Rhaenyra in season one. Yes. Right? Rhaenyra swears on Emma's grave. Still shocking. Still a wild thing to do. Yeah.

That she's a maid. She is pure. And then Laris is like, by the way, Alison, nice flower also. It's thriving despite it being out of its element. I saw Mellos bring a bejeweled blown glass thing and I was like... He brewed it himself and everything. Really interesting. And Alison's like, oh, fucking moon tea, you say? And this is when she puts on the green dress and everything goes fucking sideways from there, right? So the moon tea...

has that significance. And then also, we just spent time with Diana, the King's Landing employee, the castle employee who Aegon assaulted in season one, and Alicent makes her drink moon tea. It was interesting because last week it felt like

Seeing Diana was intended to remind us of the horrors that Aegon has inflicted, which it also did, but why not both? Yeah, it's certainly here to remind us of this as well. And then she's in Rhaenyra's room, which is where Rhaenyra took the Moontea. This journey that she's on, we have a listener email that details this a little bit more, but this way in which she's just walking the path that Rhaenyra took and the way in which she is like,

And all the things that she judged and punished Rhaenyra for, and she is experiencing herself. Yeah. That's delicious. So I agree. Incredibly dramatically compelling. And what is your read, then, on how Alicent will actively be processing that? Right? Because she is now in a circumstance that she once judged the person closest to her in the world for being in. Does this give her, like...

newfound understanding, newfound empathy for what Rhaenyra went through. What I would really like. Yeah. I mean, the baths are nice, but what I would really like is for Alison to take a trip to Harrenhal and get some ghost therapy because I feel like she's like... Yes. Okay, who's on our... Everyone can use some ghost therapy. Yeah, but like who's... What's the top three people most in need of ghost therapy? I would say Alison's... Oh, man. Long list. Alison's probably Kristen Cole.

And Ament. That's my main list. Yeah. Agam's melted right now, so I'm just going to leave him off the list. I don't know if Kristen would be open enough to the experience, whereas I think Allison would be. But the point is, you're forced open. It's true. Damon's not open to the experience either. But these are just people who are not looking inward. Yeah.

Yeah. Aemon does, but in very specific circumstances. Sorry, I don't know about you. I like how you looked right at him. I did look at him. I thought you were going to about to do a quote. I just want to give him credit. I see you trying. Oh, man. Yeah, ghost therapy. So somebody who has a lot of experience with Harrenhal, because it is his seat, which will come up in another scene in this episode, is Laris. And I, Laris sees...

seeing the Moon Tea is a later sequence, but let's just like hit that now because we're talking about the Moon Tea and we'll have other things to focus on when we get to the Laris Allison conversation later.

What do you think he will do with this information, if anything? The fact that he sees it. Because we have seen him use it before. And Allison, of course, has seen it directly. I think he's just collecting. I think it's just leverage to have if he needs it. I know. And you know I know. So I have an edge on that. Also, on the Moon Tea front, I suppose we should... I think we had a couple emails about this, about like what is exactly... Like what exactly are the properties of Moon Tea? Is this like...

like a plan B or is this sort of, you know, like a more directive sort of like abortion pregnancy termination. She makes Diana take it as a sort of plan B as a sort of just in case have some moon tea. Do you think she's like actually pregnant here? Like she knows she's pregnant. I think the way that she puts her hand over her womb, she's pregnant. She knows she's pregnant and she's taking the moon tea.

So just bear that in mind, folks. I mean, the hot rocks on the abdomen are meant to remind us of that. But like, bear in mind that then for the rest of this episode, she is inactively aborting a child. So when she has no patience for Aegon later, which we wish she had approached that differently. But like, she is in the midst of this thing. Yes. So. Yes.

So before Allison actually takes the tea, she asks Orwild a question, right? He's about to go. He says, you know, let me know if the woman who this is for...

Whoever she may be. Whoever she may be needs anything for the gut. And Allison stops him before he goes and asks a question that very clearly has been plaguing her since this conversation with Rhaenyra, where Rhaenyra said, you made a mistake. This is about another thing. The Conqueror? The Conqueror. The Conqueror? The Conqueror. And Allison told her it was too late. She asked Zorwile, do you believe?

Viserys wanted Aegon to succeed him. We should say that Orwyle was in on the conspiracy. Yes. So in memory of our beloved bees, let's quickly refresh on what Orwyle said and did at the Green Council scene in the penultimate episode of season one because...

Bees made his great stand. Yeah. This is seizure! This is bad! This is season! Oh, Bees, wonderful stuff. And Orwell greeted his longtime colleagues, desperate last stand for the truth, by saying, mind your tongue, Lyman. And then when Alicent...

who, yes, said Viserys wanted Aegon to be king, but also was like, you guys have all been plotting in secret to install my son without me. Plotting and scheming. Scheming and plotting. And said, tried to fend off the part of the plot that hinged on killing Rhaenyra, right? Orwyle said...

Your father is correct, Your Grace. A living challenger invites battle and bloodshed. So while his response to Alicent in real time is, I could not know, like, what is he going to say? There's no good faith way for him to say to her, yeah, I definitely think he actually really for real wanted Aegon to be king. Nobody thinks so. Or, is that what you think? Is that what you think? Is that what you think?

Yeah, I mean, it's interesting. I had called him out earlier, I think, yeah, this season where I was like, he's the least bad of the council members. And you're like, I guess. And I kind of agree. I mean, you're right. There's no need. I mean, I don't find him as bad as Iron Rod, but like he and Tylan are like neck and neck for a second, right? But it's a good reminder to non-book readers who have no way of knowing this that Orwell is one of the main sources in Fire and Blood. Right.

And so his like, I could not know his like, just frankly, sort of like bland political maneuvering is very interesting when we think about him as a source in Fire and Blood. Yeah, absolutely. What did he see? How would he relay it? You know? Great call. Great call.

Let's go from talking about the Green Council over to some time with the Black Council. My enemy for life. Your guy. No. Sir Alfred. Absolutely not. Is on one again. Sweep him out the door. Bela is providing her scouting updates to the council. The tree cover moving by night. This is the direction that Sir Christmas forces are heading in.

And, you know, like any sports fan watching at home, every other member standing around the painted table other than Jason Rooney, like all the dudes, the bros, they've all got notes. The ridicule is not subtle. Not subtle at all. It is active. I mean, I think this is the gist. The gist is...

He's sneering at Bela. Yeah. He's sneering at Rainies, calls Rainies out directly, right? I was shocked by that. Who put you in charge, right? Why should you have any more say? The queen did not name you hand. Right? Yeah. Sir Alfred Broome might have a sir in front of his name, but he is not like, I believe in democracy, personally. But? But that's not the world we're living in here.

This guy is no, he is like the least important person in this room and he is the loudest person in this room. And it made me so viscerally mad about all of this. The fact that he even got away with like laughing at Rhaenyra last week is insane. I think it's an effective way actually to tell us how few people they have of consequence in the room with them.

Like, this guy has a voice. And they're just, like, losing people left and right because Kristen Cole is slicing and dicing his way through the crown lens. But, like, yeah. So this fucking guy is in the room. And so my question to you is this. I mean, it's obviously gendered. We got so many emails from people who are so mad that he is such a fucking, like—

absolute dick and then like tightens up when Corliss walks in the room yeah and it's just sort of deferential to Corliss I believe in democracy I also this is the second I believe in democracy part of the last like three minutes I also believe yeah in not beheading people but but no he should they should kill him Damon

They should kill him. David would have taken his head off three separate times already inside that room. He would have been right to in the circumstances and context of this universe. He can keep his tongue. Fuck him. You know what I mean? Yeah. I thought that like the Renise thing, the way that he belittled and condescended Bela was horrifying. I was shocked by what he said to Renise. Shout out Jace for defending Bela though. Shout out Jace. I gotta tell you,

I love Jace. Jace is an asshole in this episode, but I just... I loved it. It was interesting to watch. Like, he's just a... I think it's a great performance and I really love Jace. Hey, Colette. Wonderful stuff. The...

why should your voice be any louder than ours princess it's like wait okay it's in the it's in the it's in the sentence you just said princess yeah she's a fucking princess you she's got a giant dragon she's a dragon rider yeah like she's uh the the lady of one of the great powers in the realm okay so shake my hand take this guy's head yeah astonishing okay so but here's my butt yeah

Show it to me. I think that Alfred is deplorable.

and should be executed. However, he's... This feels almost as bad as having to acknowledge some of the stuff Kristen gets right. The worst person you know has a point. I think he's right to acknowledge the lack of official cabinet position setting here. The lack of structure. Where are the small balls? The lack of... Where are the small balls? Look how much fun Egon is having spinning his around.

That seems like an effective way to lead. I mean, a big part. So, Raniere's absence being a problem. It's just too slapdash for Team Black. Raniere's absence being a problem is something we'll come back to. Yeah. But Damon's absence. Like, how Damon leaving to Harrenhal in a huff. Yeah. Put the whole org chart in disarray. Because he was the org chart, right? And then he left. And I hate that it's like...

the guy left and now no one's like paying any attention. Especially because part of the act of lament from Rhaenyra and us was like, why does Daemon think it's his prerogative to run the war council when she's off dealing with other stuff? But there at least was some semblance of like deference and authority. For sure. So yeah, Rhaenyra, we have some notes. Get out that Hand of the Queen pin. We would like to see it pinned on someone soon. Boy, speaking of Kristen. Oh, okay. Yes.

Mark the time. I'm about to defend Kristen Cole. Oh, my goodness. Oh, my goodness. We got an email from someone. Yeah. And I'm sorry I don't have it in front of me. But when we were making fun of Kristen Cole and the hand necklace, they were like, you think Kristen commissioned that? You don't think Aegon, I super glued my crown to my armor commissioned that? I'm like, you know what?

That's probably true. I bet Aegon did that. And also, we got a bunch of emails from people, but I already knew this, pointing out that Tyrion wore a similar chain. Yeah, yeah, of course. We knew that. We made a reference to Hands of Gold. Like, we knew all of that. We were just a bit subtle about it. But we do know that Kristen is not the only character who has worn this chain. It just looks so ridiculous. But I will— It's obviously Kingsguard armor. I will concede—

that this was probably Aegon's idea. It really seems like something Aegon would do. I think it is generous of you and our wonderful listeners who send their emails to think that Aegon thought about this for a second after he named Kristen Hand. It reflects glory back on him, I think. All right, anyway, I just tried to give... Kristen Cole had...

Nicole has some good ideas of this episode. It's true. We're going to have to say it. It's true. Okay, here is a rich Kristen scene. He's taking Duskendale and he's taking another head. So we cut, this is a great, wonderfully edited episode. And this was one of those moments where we cut from Renise speaking at the Black Council to his hope for the end to this conflict. And we cut right to the sands of

Duskendale drenched in blood and corpses right so one more moment where that like absolutely that it's already too late just does feel like an undeniable truth at this point this was cool for a Song of Ice and Fire fans to see Duskendale gasping and pointing at him like what's happening right now this is not

Duskendale, the Defiance of Duskendale. It was just really exciting. It did look great. It did look great. I, on the one hand, like, wish we were spending more time in these places. And on the other hand, like, love the confidence to know we don't need to linger, actually. It's been impressive. Defiance of Duskendale, we should say, is something that happened with King Aerys. Yes. So we can talk about that or not, whether or not anyone considers that a spoiler. But also, when the Conquest, like, the fact that he has burnt Duskendale. Mm-hmm.

The fact that when the conquest happened and even Visenya didn't burn Duskendale. She took all their gold. Tough, tough for Duskendale. But she didn't burn them. This is like...

Pretty reprehensible. Kristen behaves with a reckless abandon. Yes. Certainly. We can, another good bit of visual shorthand is we can just see the way that his host has expanded because we can see new sigils, right? We see the Stokeworth and Rosby sigils mixed in among the shields. And Kristen addresses the defeated foe as a

bloody Gawain sits next to him I'll let you I'll let you gush about this this Gawain moment this is like shell shocked bloody dirty no quip I mean he he sneers a bit later you know I know you weren't born here my lord like whatever but like but Harrenhal my lord hand is to the west but

The way that he's just like, oh, this isn't a joke anymore. This is my life. How did this become my life? He sort of had that moment when he, like, shit himself running away from Moondancer in last week's episode. But this is just, like, such a good... The use of Gwaine in the last two episodes has been not just, like, a source of delight and humor for us Freddie Fox fans, but also just, like, as this really important audience. Can we say enthusiast? Enthusiast. Wow. Yeah. Yes. Um...

When are we going to get a Gwaine Hightower Funko Pop? I want a Gwaine Funko. Yeah, where? I mean, they haven't started selling them yet, but rest assured I'll be purchasing one once I do. I require a Gwaine and Alice and Ulf.

And hilarious. Immediately. Immediately. Yeah, you know, he was a night of summer. This is exactly who Renise was talking about. And he's like, what the fuck is this? War? Even worse? Camping? Constantly? Just wants to be at an inn. Just wants to be at an inn with a late call time the next morning. And who can blame him? Because this is the kind of thing that Kristen is saying.

All who bend the knee to the true king Aegon will be spared. You can earn back your honor by raising his banner and fighting in his name against the horde of Dragonstone. All who refuse will have their death. So he's not just trying to...

and eliminate Rhaenyra's allies. He's swinging them. He's swelling his ranks by denying her, which is an effective tactic. One of two persuasive speeches that Kristen Cole will give in this episode. I hate that for me. But also, this stands in contrast to Daemon, who's like, everyone come here to me, to Harrenhal, and bend the knee. If Tully won't do it, you know, like maybe...

One of the Brackens of the Blackwoods will, like, et cetera. But Kristen's like, no, I'm going house to house. Yeah. I'm going to fuck you up. Yeah. He's not, like, just knocking and asking. He's, you know, beheading their lords and whatnot. Knocking with a sword. Killing legions. But...

It is effective. I thought that the whore of Dragonstone, like, obviously he's not going to call her queen. That's what the whole war is about. But whore of Dragonstone was just so brazen, even for Kristen. And they've been using this language throughout. We've commented on it before, but as you said—

Well, your point is that that has been more behind closed doors, but they constantly call Rhaenyra whore or the C-word or whatever. Yeah, but to do it in front of all these people, to make it part of your campaign? Aegon is just the usurper. Yes. Yeah. Yeah. I enjoyed the way that Lord Darklyn, Ser Steffen's father, as we will...

Stefan, the member of the Kingsguard who went undercover with Rhaenyra. Dressed as a septon. Knife up the sleeve. Yeah. Great stuff. So he's marched out to the headsman's block and he really calls out Kristen on his lack of honor, the depravity of his pursuit. Did you, a Kristen-hater, feel a little part of you like,

All right, he is doing the old Ned, the man who passes the sentence should swing the sword. He is doing it. Don't look away. Do we have to be crushingly respect him? Yes, I did. Because I count this, you're about to run through a bunch of beheadings that we saw on Game of Thrones. But I remember back in the day writing like a long Vanity Fair article about the various beheadings that we saw and how it was, you know, meant to be a barometer of some kind for the war.

moral metal of these people and the fact that Kristen is like up there with Ned and Jon is distressing to me but here we are. Quite. I loved Lord Darklyn leaving an impression at the end. First, the way that he says King Meeker and it's just like dripping with derision. You're not fit for the white cloak. Well, the white cloak is like the only thing that Kristen likes to talk about. The purity and the fidelity. The only fucking thing to my name. Um,

This guy ate. Yes, this is great. This is the definition of an actor who is given like three lines and he's like, I'm going to make a meal for myself. He sure did. Some aged venison. Black cabbage. No red currant. No red currant. Plenty of peas. We get to see later the way that Egon really like

twitches when he hears this Kingmaker moniker used at the Green Council table. So it's interesting to think about how the legend is like something that his own faction is resenting. That is Kristen's like moniker in the book. Yes, absolutely. That, that, that Thrones tradition that you, that you mentioned Lord Darklyn joining here. I do just love when, even when it's the executioner is a character we root

root for and believe in like a John or a Rob, less so at that point in the story of Theon. I love when the person they're about to kill gets that last little shot in because, like, you are literally being executed. Your life is over, but you have the power in that moment, and that's an amazing trick to be able to pull off. So I think my favorite has always been Roderick to Theon. God's help you, Theon Greyjoy. Now you are truly lost. It's just so chilling. My favorite too.

And it's raining and then it's so messy and Bran is so tiny and it's just like, that's one of the best moments. Fabulous stuff. Yeah, I never like to give, you know, it's also easier to give Roger credit than like Alistair Thorne or Karstark. You'll be fighting in their battles forever. It's funny, I was rewatching because Dany has one in Meereen with Mosadar and that one I always judge Daenerys for because she does not

swing the sword herself at all right she's Dario do it and she doesn't look at all and then the crowd fucking hisses at her so as low as I am to ever go to Marine I just always it's like we know what we do in the shadows episode

I just always want to put Danny in that list. The three boys that Ned Stark raised, Jon and Theon and Rob, and then also Danny. And Danny really failed. We should have known some things were happening, just by the way. That all went down. A lot was off in Meereen, quite a bit. I found the way that Kristen said you should thank me for it to be so disturbing and horrifying. Do you find that the performance is distinct...

in terms of how Kristen sounds like this episode. I hadn't noticed that, but I kind of want to go back and re-watch. Yeah, I feel like he's speaking differently, like deliberately, now that he is the Hand and out as this General. Do you think like he's trying to like a fancier, like rounder vowel sort of thing? It's like he's left the boy behind completely. It's the kill the boy. Let the man be born? Yeah. Interesting. I think it's interesting to... I think his...

performance here like starting last week when he's like no fucking ins right and then his performance here where there's just like confidence determination swagger um swaying the crowd to his uh having already swayed rosby and stokeworth all of that sort of stuff yeah um

It's so important to set up what happens to him at Rook's Rest. Yes. Right? This is a man who's like, I'm in possession of this world. I am winning. I am winning. I am winning. I know how to do this. I didn't know how to sit at the table of the small council. I felt... I think one of our listeners says you can't have imposter syndrome if you are an imposter. But he felt like an imposter at the table. But this he could do. Absolutely. Until...

He realizes that this is a dragon war, not a guy in a horseback war. And so I think this scene is so key for that to just sort of like, here he is, top of the world, Kristen Cole, about to have the same look on his face as Gawain Hightower has right now. I love that. Like Otto saying, we must play the board before us. Well, the board's about to change. Kristen knew how to play one board. Well, the board's about to change. The way that the...

Men of House Darkland bend the knee in mass after the execution really reminded me of the aftermath of Spoils of War, where like so many of the assembled there are reluctant to bend the knee to Dany even after the victory in battle. And it's only after Randall and Dany.

Rickon, was it? Dickon? Hot second Dickon. Rickon, was it? Kills me every time. And Dickon are burned. And then they all fall to their knee because at a certain point you just can't deny the truth of the might on the other side. It is time to talk about one of our favorite scenes of the season so far. This wonderful green council sequence. This war of words between Aemond and Aegon.

Aegon is extremely displeased at the beginning of this scene to learn that Daemon has taken Harrenhal. And Fire and Blood, I think this is an area where the text gives us actually some helpful context for how deeply, why this unmoored Aegon so deeply. He is shook. Shooketh!

The fall of Harrenhal to Prince Daemon came as a great shock to His Grace, Munkin tells us. Until that moment, Aegon II had believed his half-sister's cause to be hopeless. Harrenhal left His Grace feeling vulnerable for the first time. I mean, not your child getting beheaded, right?

Yeah, it is a big difference between this and Duelvin. You know what I mean? Like, it's only been a couple episodes, but this, like, Aegon's been through some shit. This is not going to be easy. Yeah.

He wanted that toehold in the Riverlands. Boy, he did. And he wanted to send out the dragons, which he is happy to remind everybody of here. He's quite unhappy that they're not listening to him and that they're not taking the kind of dragon war action that he wants, which, of course, is one of the many moments in the episode that kind of primes us for him setting out on Sunfire later. Also a nice inverse of the Black Council. Very much so. He rips into Larys.

for letting his own seat fall. Right? How strong has Harrenhal? And Larys, as usual, is just his totally measured... Spin. ...focused on the long game. He'll tell Alicent later, it's a loss for our greater good. But what does he say here about what he thinks...

I always forget about that one. Thanks, Eve. What he thinks Harrenhal will do to Daemon. Which stuff go? It's like to drive Daemon to madness as he attempts to use it. It is beyond his faculties as Harrenhal saps Daemon's resolve.

And a reminder that in season one, he said, among other things, it is said to be a cursed place that it passes judgment on all who pass beneath its gates. So I find this idea of like, what does Laris know and when does he know it fascinating. And what experiences maybe he had directly. Yeah. What dreams did he have in a tree made of, you know, where would or otherwise be?

As Harrenhal saps Daemon's resolve, so, like, part of it is just the logistics, which we talked about, which is just, like, Harrenhal is impossible to manage. Yep. It's crumbling. Like, he doesn't have the benefit of Lyris's coffers, like the gold or whatever. So it's just sort of, like, just a logistical nightmare. Yes. Lyris noting that he controlled the gold, one of the many moments in this episode where, like, resources, treasury are mentioned. Yeah.

But Saps' resolve could have that real-world explanation of just sort of like, got too much on his to-do list. But also to go back to that idea of Daenerys in the House of the Undying, this idea of draining someone magically. Yeah. What does Larys know? Yeah, drive Daemon to madness. Yeah.

Feels like Laris knows quite a bit. Kirsten's not going to Harrenhal. No. Eamon's got an update for the rumor. Yeah. Yeah. And this one couldn't have been an email. It had to be a meeting. He's not going to Harry HQ. No Harry HQ. He's going to Rook's Rest. Rook's Rest. What does Achan think of this? What does he call it? Pathetic price. Pathetic. That's the point. That is the point, of course. It's a trap. Small and is weakly held, but it's Lord. Lord Sontag sits on Rhaenyra's council and it's position. So...

Yep. Medium. Yep. King's Landing, Dragonstone. Here we go, right? We're just, Kristen's going like this. Just right up the coast. Moving up the coast. Yeah. Northeast. And just like blocking off landing spots. And getting closer and closer to just what's due west of Dragonstone if they sought to sail to the mainland. And so cutting off. And then the fucking Celticars and their crabs.

Oh, boy. I love this when Aemon, like, gets up, goes over to the whiteboard, is like, says this thing about the world will not be one with dragons alone, but the dragons flying behind armies of men. And then Aemon goes, and he's like, no, but this is my plan. It's like a kid with, like, magnets on the fridge, you know? Tongling Carnie in that one was so good. Absolutely sensational stuff. I thought that Aemon line was really interesting because...

It shows that he has a feel for tactics and strategy and like a wisdom that is just distinct, obviously, from his brothers, which I think is true. But also then when you watch the horror unfold at Rook's Rest, you can't part of the point. And we'll talk about this more when we get there in terms of like the Kristen lens of waking up to see what has unfolded. It's hard to think that.

the men matter. Like, they're just kindling for the dragons. That's part of what was so destabilizing about watching it and what made it such an effective scene. Yeah. The Rosby and Stokeworth and Darklin people are like, oh, we bent the knee for this? I mean,

It's a tough one. To be Ash? It's a tough one. You fall, you go on a march, then you immediately die. It's not ideal. Not an ideal way to spend your last fortnight. Aegon is floor Joe. Plots and schemes without him. Without my authority. Obviously, we're thinking of each other in plots and schemes, but I'm also just thinking about Alicent. Yep.

coming to the Green Council when Viserys dies. It's like, you have been plotting this without me? Yeah. You planned this whole thing? You did a coup without me? Without me. And it's interesting too because when, you know, obviously the thing Amon is not mentioning here is the...

They are part of it, the trap part of it. But it's interesting to think back to when we saw Amos and Kristen sitting with their map and their coins, sketching out this plan initially in the beginning of the season in episode one, because at that point they were like, Alison and Otto aren't going to go for it. But like, what if we pitched it to Agon?

And so to think of how in just these few episodes he was cut out. Well, that was before he lost his shit. Well, before the brothel, but also before he smashed the lake. All of it. Post blood and cheese. It's been a tough couple of episodes. Yeah.

For Aegon. A little out of control, yeah. Definitely before the brothel. The brothel changed a lot of things. But also, like, so as we move into this incredible moment. Sensational. When Aemon, like, cucks Aegon using Valyrian. Everybody there watching, like, they're watching a tennis match. It's like we're in Challengers. And you can, like, see. Talon just wants to see good tennis.

It's just like an enthusiasm. You're already touching the amateur circuit, prepping for the pro tour. I loved it. No, but the way you feel like the... Yeah. Feel their respect shift. What's interesting is they're not... It's not... I mean, the challengers thing occurred to me too. It was really funny. But they're not ping-ponging like... It's like they're all watching Eamon and they very slowly turn to Aegon in a way that was like both like funny but also chilling and just...

I did feel bad for Aegon. He sucks, but I felt bad for him. I felt bad for him a lot in this episode. You and Mitchell will talk to us in the interviews or about that scene and sort of why he thinks it's so special, but I just loved this. This is sensational. So obviously the conversation is in High Valyrian, but here's the actual common tongue translation of this that we get in the subtitles. What is Aemon saying to him? You had more pressing matters to attend to, such as holding court.

choosing your sobriquet and naming imbecilic lick spittles to our Kingsguard. Our Kingsguard is an insane thing to say.

Astonishing stuff. I loved it. Viserys, of course, used Lickspittles when he was tearing into Daemon in season one. But also this is quite literally true. When you reference season one, episode one, and Aemond and Kirsten plotting with the map and the coins, et cetera, Aegon is literally sprawled on the throne picking his super-K. Dragoncock. Yeah, exactly. The fact that Aemond thinks...

Aegon is a joke is like not new to us, right? We've been talking about this all season long. We've been talking about it since last season, since the penultimate episode when Aemond and his murder clock and Kristen and his dumb hat made their way through the city. And Aemond just said, here I am trawling the city ever the good soldier. We usually talk about the last part of this quote, which is that it is I who should be cutting off right at King. But this part feels more relevant here right now. It's all entwined, obviously. Yeah.

in search of a wastrel who's never taken half an interest in his birthright. It is I, the younger brother, who studies history and philosophy. It is I who trains with the sword, who rides the largest dragon in the world. It is I who should be king. And then when they find Aegon later, and Aegon says, let me go. I have no wish to rule, no taste for duty. I'm not suited. Aemon says, you'll get no argument from me. And so Aegon,

This just reinforces and crystallizes what we already knew. And we have actually heard, in that last example, Aemon say this to Aegon. It's not even like Aegon is confronting him for the first time. You forgot to do the Aegon biting him part of that. I know you love the nipple. You love the nipple. I do. Thanks for articulating the B. When they were younger, we like to talk about this example too, like the drift mark, the funeral scene when...

Oh, he's like, I'd marry Helena. I'd marry Helena. And we talk about what they each see and can respect or adore in Helena is part of what we focused on a lot. But the first part of that, which is Eamon saying it will strengthen the family, keep our Valyrian blood pure. Like, he is tethered to their family.

family traditions in a way that Aegon just simply isn't. You and I both love a blood purist. God. Do you have a wiser strategy, my king? If so, you should voice it to your council. We all await your answer. And this is when then Aegon jokes out, I can have to make a war? War? War?

So, and he goes, hmm. That is the Logan Roy, like, you are not a serious person moment there. It's just so for you. Absolutely delicious. And then he's like, okay, so my plan. Yeah.

Yeah. Nobody at the table, we presume, can understand what they are saying. Maybe Orwell. Orwell. I mean, but also. But they don't need to, which is part of what makes it so effective. They can tell that he has annihilated him. It transcends all language. But also, I'm just saying, if I'm sitting on the small council. You learn the language of your everyone. I'm learning Valerian. It's a good note. Yeah. It's a good note. Now available on Duolingo. No free ads. Let's talk about the Valerian a little bit more, Jo. Yeah.

You've been studying the tapes, as you said. Anything else that you wanted to hit here other than what we talked about earlier today in terms of just like what the history of how the language has been deployed between characters on the show or another show that you might have heard of called Game of Thrones makes you think of? What was on your mind here? I was thinking, you've got some great examples here, but I was thinking the Jace moment really sticks out to me. In season one, when he still had the mullet,

It's been mere weeks since Viserys died, but Jace has grown a full head of curls. Oh, man. But when he still has the mullet, Rhaenyra walks in. It's that northern air, you know? Yeah. The moisture just really got the curls popping. Rhaenyra walks in, and he is trying to teach himself Valyrian, and he is stumbling over words, and she is gently sort of correcting him. She's being a very lovely, loving mother in that moment. Oh, yeah.

And he is so mad at himself about it, right? And he says a king should honor the tradition of his forebears. So this idea of it is like, again, that imposter syndrome thing. Like, how Valyrian are you? And for Jace especially, like, everybody is, you're three strong boys. People think you're a bastard. But you can't even ride a dragon. But you can't do this, right? Which is all these guys we've talked about many times last season. Like, I don't, his mom, no matter what, his mother is Targaryen. Anyway. Yeah.

But yeah, this idea of like being the idea of being of how Targaryen are you? Yeah. And Valyrian being a big part of that and Aemond just going all in. I mean, especially like in his like how he's modeled himself on Daemon. Like he's just sort of like how Targaryen like hitting his hair with a flat iron every morning, like all the stuff that he does to make himself look as Targaryen as possible. Yes. Whereas like

you know, Aegon's like bedhead every day? Question mark? You know? I love that. Great wig work. And then like, that's a great call because then the way they go out into battle almost feels like the opposite of that where it's a continuation of what we talked about last week with Aegon kind of like cosplaying as the Conqueror with the armor. Aemon's just like in...

Leathers. An outfit. Yeah. Like, just some riding leathers. Yeah. You know? Wonderful stuff. I was, like, thinking back to the... You know, because, as I mentioned earlier, Luke is using Valerian to speak to Arax, which, like, we will talk about later. Aegon is not using Valerian to speak to Sunfire, which felt really notable, but... Faster, Sunfire! Go! Oh, sweet Sunfire. The, like, Aemon saying, you owe me a debt, boy, to Luke. Like, he's...

He's using Valyrian there. I thought, of course, of Dany's. I am Daenerys Stormborn of the House Targaryen. Of the blood of old Valyria, Valyrian is my mother tongue. Like, triumphant moment. Can you do the score? What happens there? Right before the dragon fire. Like, the descending. Great. Yeah. Great stuff. Great moment. This is what I got for you, Jo. Just, like, looking...

Weak, looking small, looking unworthy. I thought, but I heard that he was as fearsome as any of them. Is that not true? I can't imagine that he's feeling that way now. Wonderful stuff from the Green Council. Not everybody was at the Green Council meeting to witness Aegon's shame. Alicent wasn't there. And...

as Alicent is assembling like a homemade heating pad, right? Some warmed rocks from the fire wrapped up in a cloth, in a towel. Delightful. Laris.

pops by to check on her after the meeting that she missed. This is when he sees the moon tea on the table. She sees that he sees the moon tea on the table. He knows and she knows. He knows. Listen, here's my question to you. Yeah. I've decided to call Laris' little agents little rats instead of little birds. Yes. Right? Yeah, to keep the memory of the season one alive.

Laris rat theory alive. It's always alive in my heart. Yeah. Shout out to Joe. Great one. Great one. But do you think there's any way in which Orwyle could be one of Laris' little rats? Not that you need Orwyle.

Right. Because someone could have just clocked that telltale mug. But it's the way that Laris asks her about I mean, she's she's strewn history books around the room. So that's definitely a tip off. But like it's the way that he like immediately directs the conversation. Right. To pick up sort of where she left off with Orwell. That makes you suspicious that Orwell was just like she just asked me this weird question.

Maybe. Could be. Could be. I like it. I always like to think about who might be in Larys' keeper confidence. What did she make of the way that Larys broached Kristen with Alicent here? And you must worry for him, your sworn sword on the march ever exposed to dragons.

It is a perilous road. Is this him offering to kill Kristen Cole if she wants him to? I mean, he's kind of always offering to kill people for her. Right. I mean, like, on the one hand, it's part of him, like, ferreting out how much she actually cares about Kristen Cole. What is this thing between you and Kristen Cole? So that's the surface main read for me. Yeah. But...

Parallel... Oops! Yeah, who knows what could happen out on the road? Who knows what could happen at the cursed keep of Harrenhal, as I used as my very thin veil for murdering my father and brother in season one. Spooky haunted castles, dragons on the road, who's to say what might happen? I like that read. Do you really need to take care of a guy? I think like every other Lyra's thing, it's more interesting than when there are multiple things that he's working toward at once. And so like, yeah, my main read was also...

He's refusing to allow it to escape her notice that he knows about Kristen, and that gives him power over her yet again. But I like this additional wrinkle that maybe he's like, let me know if you want me to take him off the board. We played the board before us, but what if the board didn't have Kristen on it? Think about it. What if we took him and the rook off the board? Think about it. Look at you with your chess references. He sits down.

goes to sit across from her and asks her, basically, like, what's up with you? You haven't been yourself. Are you okay? As we continue to parse what is going through Lyris's mind, is there any part of this that struck you as genuine care and concern? Or is this all part of his...

Machinations. My initial instinct to say he's always scheming always and then he doesn't actually... What was it that Ryan Connell said about he has no human emotion, I think, or something like that? Yeah, that it was all about power. In our interview with him. But Matthew Niedema said something different in some of his interviews where he's talked about him actually caring about Rainier, actually like...

good things from her, which is like really at odds with my read of the character. So it's just like fun for me to think about like this is how the actor thinks about the character. I don't know that it's necessarily how the writers are thinking about the character, but this is and all it does is make the character that much more fascinating for me because to your point, there's just like always 90 different agendas rolling all together. And the idea that there is some shred of authenticity in there is

is interesting to me. Varys was similar, right? Varys... Absolutely. I mean, Varys is much more overtly like... The realm someone must. Right, like he was... But he was like... He genuinely did care about Ned or did care about these people, did think this person was a good man or this, that, or the other thing, but like had other things also on his to-do list. Yeah. Yeah. I think that that aspect of like trying to...

and even identify what is going through Lyris's mind. This next exchange, this next part of the conversation that we're about to hear, we're going to talk about a lot of this from Allison's perspective, but for Lyris, this was my single favorite Lyris snippet. This part of the scene in particular, to date, for the reason that you just identified. It was so hard to know in a way that I found exhilarating what exactly was motivating and driving his behavior here. Steve, can we hear this? I did not know you shared your Lord Husband's love.

For the histories? If not his love, then certainly an abiding interest. The voices of history guided Viserys. He knew that his wisdom alone could only reach so far. Do you think that is why he changed his mind in the end? No matter how suited he thought Rhaenyra for the crown, the voices of history, as you say, would have told him how the realm would react to her succession. It's impossible to know what steered his thoughts in those final hours. Do you now doubt his intentions?

Yes, it did.

It's that. It's the yes, it did. There's like a softness and like a gentle quality to it. It's not a mustache twirling. Yes, it did. Totally. There was a level of really sincere human connection there that is not actually separate. It's entwined here from whatever is driving and motivating his fact-finding mission here. There's a couple things I want to say also in addition to that. Number one, I would listen to Matthew Needham like read anything. Sure.

And they should give him some audio books to read, I think. Right. Um,

Also, the score there is just, like, incredible. It's gorgeous. And the same variation plays in the heat of the battle. This is, like, a gentle sort of haunting version of it. And the heat of the battle, you get this sort of, like, hardcore version of it where it's just sort of, like, pounding. So, Ramin Djawadi, you remain an icon. Incredible stuff. Incredible stuff. Okay, let's talk about the Alicent part of this. Yeah. So...

First of all, there's the way that she responds to Laris's question, which is, I will not engage with this. I will not bite. I won't take the bait versus her just outright asking for a while. And what that tells us about how she's assessing the like, who's a political animal? Who's a safe person to have a certain exchange with element of the members of their team. Get Allison a friend in 2024. I would love that. Remember when Allison and Rhaenyra were friends? I do. Heartbreaking stuff. Yeah.

They will certainly form a lifelong bond. Wouldn't you agree? Oh, Miss Harris, I know that was about other characters, but I never missed a chance to quote it. So, Alicent has, as we saw when she and Rhaenyra were young, sitting by their wherewood tree, reading their books, has Alicent

has actually always genuinely been interested in history. She read to the old king, Jaehaerys, studied with Rhaenyra, passed that page as kind of shorthand, asked Viserys about Valyria, as we talked about earlier. There's like the flip side of that when she chastised Aemon for his obsession with the dragons, which showed a kind of lack of appreciation for their specific history. But in terms of the particulars of what is driving this here...

her interest clearly in this episode is spawned by her chat with Rhaenyra in the Sept. Is your main note for Alicent the same one that you have for me, which is why don't you put all of your books on Kindle so you can word search the prince that was promised? Yeah. I personally love to hold a book in my hand and I have many a book in my home. But if I'm doing something for research, if I'm combing a text for work, I have

I have that on my Kindle. I know. So you can word search. So that I can find what I need, damn it. You said this to me one time. You were like, why are you flipping pages when you can just type it into the word search bar? If you just type in Prince that was promised. Azor Ahai. So, okay. Let's talk about this for a minute because it's interesting to think about how, on the one hand, she actually could stumble across something

In Viserys's vast collection, especially if she can find, in addition to the books she already has opened, the ones that Aegon took. Aegon didn't burn. No, it didn't burn them. It just had them removed. It didn't burn them. Removed to where I cannot say. But I did not burn them. Simply had them removed. It was crowded in here. And then I believe in the free-flowing space. Had to get rid of the Legos. Had to get rid of the books. I would never. Getting rid of the Legos and the books? No. Can you imagine? So...

When we think of The Prince That Was Promised, The House Over High, The Bleeding Stars, The Salt and Smoke, we think of Melisandre talking about this across...

the Song of Ice and Fire canon and this idea that like the legend from her perspective treats back 5,000 years, right? And we've talked about this for a bazillion pods on end, but the idea that like the specific nature of the prince prophecy would manifest slightly differently across time or across cultures, but there would be this recognizable through line of this being at its heart the same thing. And so Alicent could stumble across some

Something like that. Certainly. Sure. The question of if she is ever going to be able to find something that ties this family to this idea. The thing specifically that Rhaenyra shared with her about this being Aegon's dream. She's going to need a brazier and a dagger. I don't, like, it's interesting. This is the question. So, as we said a million times. I just noticed, like, progression.

The color progression on your nails, which is wonderful. Thank you. Beautiful. Thanks. I'm sorry. It was just lovely. It really captivated me in real time. Thanks. No, this idea that, like, ever since they...

with the prophecy conversation, season one, episode one of House of the Dragon, all of us who were at the premiere were like, what the hell? You and Kim Renfro and other people we were gathering around were like, what does this mean? What does it mean? What does it mean? So then we have to backtrack through all the books and we're like, tracing lineages. This has been the big question for book readers is like, if this is a word of mouth prophecy with a few words on a dagger, how did it survive the various... The song of steel.

But how to survive the various, like, coups and civil wars and whatever that happens between Targaryen to Targaryen. When did it get lost? Where did it get lost? Yeah. Rhaegar, we love this passage and always have from A Storm of Swords, and it really, it does stand out differently. And I think this question of, like, could Alicent actually find something more specific that ties the family to the prophecy in some sort of text? Yeah.

This is like one bit of evidence that we can say maybe that we have no way of knowing the timing of this. This could have been written down later. As you wish, said Whitebeard. As a young boy, the Prince of Dragonstone was bookish to a fault. So this is Barristan talking to Dany about Rhaegar.

He was reading so early that men said Queen Rhaelam must have swallowed some books in a candle whilst he was in her womb. Rhaegar took no interest in the play of other children. The maesters were awed by his wits, but his father's knights would jest sourly that Baelor the Blessed had been born again. Until one day, Prince Rhaegar found something in his scrolls that changed him. No one knows what it might have been. Only that the boy suddenly appeared early one morning in the yards. The knights were donning their steel. He walked up to Ser Willem Darry, the master-at-arms, and said...

I will require sword and armor. It seems I must be a warrior. So I think we have no way to interpret that other than he found not just the prophecy, but like this family tie to the prophecy, this idea, right? And there's like, you know, Rayla and...

But Ares, his parents, like their marriage also ties to the prophecy that was which prophecy, right? That the prince would come from their line. There are all sorts of things that we could trace. And again, maybe perhaps at some point we will. But this question of like, was this Rhaegar? What do we mean by scroll, right? Who knows which reliable is narrator? Could it be the dagger? Could Rhaegar have just put the dagger in the fire and seen it? We don't know the full chain of custody of the dagger. No. The ownership gap goes from...

Aemond, at the end of this episode, to Littlefinger. We don't know anything in between that. Right. It doesn't look like something Mr. Rubies on his breastplate Rhaegar would wear. Yes, it does, 100%. But anyway, we don't know. Yeah. And like, it's fun to think just, I actually am still kind of like,

The Tower of Joy full sequence at the end of Winds of Winter is, like, maybe my favorite moment in the history of television. Then you spin forward into season seven and you have, like, a kind of botched pronunciation of Rhaegar as, like, the annulment reveal, which actually makes me, like, want to curl up and die still to this day. But through the context of, like, this conversation, it is an interesting reminder that, like,

There is a lot of crucial history. That was Gilly, right? Gilly and Sam. But she's learning how to read. It was more that it was, like, then immediately went into Sam, like, just on a bitch fest about, like, conduct at the Citadel. And I'm like, this is, like, one of the most massive moments in the history of the story. And it's, like, going to be, like, hand-waved until we have a moment later with Sam and Bran in the fire. It drove me crazy. Anyway, not relevant. What matters is...

that was there. It was like Innoceptin's diary. And so like what else at some point could have been actually committed to the record? Is it something that you think Allison will find something? Do you think that she will tell Amand what...

or anybody what Rhaenyra said to her more explicitly at some point. And Aemon will be like, how interesting. Let me light this on fire. Let me light this dagger on fire and find out. No, that's the big question. Will anyone ever tell, you know, we get the big telling with Jace and we'll talk about that, but like who else will be told before all is said and done? Yeah. Yeah. We don't know. It's interesting. The more people who know, the harder it becomes to accept that like the knowledge could be lost at some point, but like, you know, maybe everyone heads to Kofar. I was about to.

literally about to say what happens at Kofar stays in Kofar okay Joanna it's the thrill of my life to tell you that we're heading back to Harrenhal this season on Naughty at Island when we were new they spoiled me they even gave me a phone but then it's like I didn't exist

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Because it is time at last. Which stuff? Which stuff? Which stuff? I actually just feel fortunate that I get to be here with you. I know. I know.

Oh my God, you're quivering with anticipation. I'm so excited. This is thrilling. Damon is about to formally, this isn't just a little like an alarming comment in the godswood, formally meet Alice Rivers. I had a really, I've lost my mind moment. Tell me. I was re-watching this scene for the millionth time of Alice and Damon in the kitchen. And I was like, has anyone else ever,

spoken to or about Alice. That's something I always like to track. Because I'm always like, you're not going to fool me with a ghost, you motherfuckers. Anyway. I've been fooled too many times. Oh, man. No one, like, because, you know, Simon hasn't been like, oh, Alice, that's our, like, cool hot witch who lives in our kitchen. Has she told you she's a bar now? Yeah. She hasn't spoken to anyone else.

When she does walk into the room when everyone else is kneeling, there is one guy kneeling closest to her who does sort of look up as she walks in. I'm like, okay. So other people see her. I just wanted to make, I needed to make sure. And he's like, dope fit. Where'd you hit the drop? And he's like, you're so hot. And I agree. I love witches. Oh, man. Okay. We have so much to get to. This is like, obviously, we will, I think, forever refer to this as the Rook's Rest episode. But it is an incredible Damon episode. It's an incredible Damon episode. Yeah.

Yeah.

Which is tough. Yeah. Damon is once again struggling to sleep in his leaky room. The rain and the dreams alike are... Seep it in. Seep it in. Yeah. Through the stone. It's tough. Tough to get a good night's rest. And he hears more footsteps by the door. And this time, it seemed to me, though, I admittedly am, like, losing my hearing and going deaf and also can't see. So that's ideal. Sounded like... If ears could squint, that's what just happened to your head. Yeah.

Oh, man. Like an unsheathing of a sword, like little battle cries. Very ominous. Very ominous. And then Damon pursues this blonde form, silvery blonde form, the strap of an eyepatch. Correct. Visible on the back of this head. And so we're like, cool.

Cool. He's pursuing Aemond. And then Aemond turns around and Luke slices off the face mask of Vader's helmet and it's his own face looking at him from the cave in Dagobah. It's Daemon's face when he turns. And this was delightful. It was great. One of our favorite things talking about the show is this talking about Aemond and Daemon. We have them here with us now, quote, as foils. And this was just...

a delicious visual rendering of that idea and also how they're on each other's minds. Like, it's not just for us. They are obsessed with each other. I cannot wait for people to hear what you and Mitchell have to say about how the very specific way in which he keeps Damon on his mind as he performs his character. Great stuff.

We did get an email from our listener, Liz. I don't have time to talk about this because I have so much witch stuff to get to. But Liz, we will do a little bit more of a conversation for non-book readers about the foil aspect between Damon and Ament. Because I feel like we keep saying it, but they have had very little interaction. And so maybe we can, we'll talk about that a little bit more in a non-spoiler way in a future episode. But I love it. I saw your email. We'll get to it. I love it. I would like to just quickly take a moment. Yeah. To note.

One of the most important things that's ever happened in the history of television. Never before and never since. Which is that on this week's House the Dragons Built, Hathi makeup designer Amanda Knight said the following of Gail Rankin. Yeah. Alice. We embraced her paleness. And that is now the House of R. That's the official House words of this podcast. House of R colon embrace the paleness.

This was just great stuff. Joanna, I would like to ask you. Yeah. Damon arrives. He wanders into the kitchen. Alice has a just frankly iconic greeting for him. It's a touch late to be stalking about a strange castle, putting its people to the sword. You, I'm calling Alice. Strong rivers. A bastard wants you to get to know me. You'll find I'm not so bad. So good. Iconic. I have no notes.

Please take us to Fit Watch Corner for a minute here. So I don't want non-book readers to Google image search fan art of Alice Rivers because I feel like there might be spoilers therein. So I would just not do that. So you're just going to have to believe me when I say that when you do that, what you will largely get is drawings that look like essentially the actress Eva Green in like the slinkiest. One of my Alzheimer's. Oh, I mean. One of my Alzheimer's.

All the time. She's one of the hottest people to ever have lived. Very special. But like in like the slinkiest gown imaginable and like usually this fan art of Alice Rivers she'll be like contorted around someone or whatever. Yeah.

I love that she's like, oh, I'm a fucking kitchen witch. I've got an apron on. I still find Gail Rankin, like, incredibly alluring and hot. But I love that, like, it's wrapped up in this, like, practicality of this domesticity that she's doing here. She's wearing this apron that's got weirwood leaves embroidered on it. And the last time we saw that...

on a Game of Thrones property was Sansa Stark's Queen of the North gown. Which was gorgeous. Coronation gown. Gorgeous. Where Michelle Clapton, the costume designer, put like a million little Easter eggs and one of them was this gorgeous fall of embroidered weirwood leaves on the Queen of the North, Sansa Stark. So the weirwood leaves are here. That's probably not the only place they are in this kitchen, but they are definitely here on the apron. And something I love in...

a friend of the pod is Shaya on the history of Westerners podcast talking about this, this idea that like Alison as, sorry, Alice as a, a witch, um,

if you prefer, a bastard, a woman, conducting a lot of these conversations in kitchens and random courtyards behind closed doors, is exactly the kind of person to confound the historical sources in Fire and Blood. You read the great description of how she is

put into the book in this, like, we don't know what she is. Who can say about the mind of a dragon? Who can say what the hell Alice Rivers was? We don't know. She could have been a million different things. But, like, that idea that the show is constantly challenging of, like, who writes the histories? Yes. Who dictates the histories? And, like, perhaps not even Mushroom, because as far as I know, Mushroom never went to Harrenhal. Mushroom was not there. Yeah.

knows how to handle someone like Alice Rivers. I love it. That's such a great call. And then that kind of like compounding that with the idea that Damon would never want anyone to know that he had experienced this. Oh, he's telling no one about any of this. And yeah, it would just never make the pages history. So I love that. I love that. Alice, because Damon, you know, is curious about like, oh, yeah. So you're a maester? What happened? Go to the prayer, maester. Did he by chance flee in the night? Yeah.

Do you feel like the knight or has he been turned into goop? Never settle then. It's a red flag for me. That guy's dead. So we are just, it's the thrill of our lives to say that Alice listens to House of R and knows that we never miss a chance to talk about either curses or werewoods and she is happy to oblige. Steve's lore. Can we hear this? How are you settling in? I've come to know the face of tortured rest well enough.

Sleep can be thin in this place. What would you know of my sleep? Ironhall's when Kirsten's first stone was laid. Black Haddon felled the grove of weirwood trees that grew on these lands. Heart trees imbued with the spirits of those who lived long before he came. It's said their whispers can still be heard sometimes. Midwife's town. The very bed you sleep in was made from such a heart tree. Have you experienced anything of note? You are a strange kind of woman.

I'm no woman at all. I'm a barn owl, cursed to live in human form. Sensational stuff. On the accent corner beat real quickly. Yes, yes, yes. A lot of people, she only had one line last season, right? You're going to die here. And a lot of people in this place, sorry. And a lot of people, I think because of her vocal fry, thought she sounded like American.

But she is quite clearly Scottish. This is Gail Rankin's like natural Scots accent. But what I love is that we haven't had like a ton of Scottish accents on either Game of Thrones or House of the Dragon. Rory McCann as the Hound is like slightly Scottish. My guy Beesbury, Bill Patterson is Scottish. He's crazy.

But not many others, like, overall. So she just sounds profoundly different than most of the people we've met in Westeros, which I love. Fantastic stuff. What an incredible scene. This is, you know... You expedienced anything? Yeah. Of note. Of note. We, you know, we just established it's

what our new house motto is. But I'd like to say that from here on, I've come to know the face of tortured rest well enough will be our greeting to each other at the beginning of every recording. I'm getting a sticker made for your laptop. It's like, yeah, I bet you have. You'll have to sit across and look at me three times a week. You're beautiful.

It's a kind lie, and I appreciate you. I cherish you. You're the best. So this made me think of a couple things, and it made me think of 700 and so on, which I love. Japan! We're so close to which stuff go. I'll just very quickly hit why it made me think of Bran, and then I want to hear all of the amazing things that it made you think of. It made me think of two things with Bran. One was one of my favorite...

And it just kind of like shreds my soul on rewatches is that conversation between Luan and Bran about like magic being gone from the world, right? Long forgotten. Every Luan scene is perfect. Heaven. Yeah. And it's like part of what makes it so painful is, you know, Bran is the like, maybe we do like live in the blue eye of a giant named McCumber kid and like has that open mind and heart. And Luan, a character we have such warmth for and love for and adoration for and respect for,

Like a man of letters and a man of reason and a man who looks at what he sees with his eyes is like magic is gone. And these things aren't possible. Some real man of science, man of faith. Man of science, man of faith. Because you're a man of science. Yeah. And I'm a man of faith. The other thing it made me think of was Bran and Osha. And this is, of course, a scene in the show as well. I'll read the passage from the book from A Game of Thrones by their wereword at Winterfell. Bran listened. It's only the wind, he said after a moment uncertain. The leaves are rustling.

"'Who do you think sends the wind, if not the gods?' She seated herself across the pool from him, clinking faintly as she moved. Micken had fixed iron manacles to her ankles with a heavy chain between them. She could walk, so long as she kept her strides small, but there was no way for her to run or climb or mount a horse. "'They see you, boy. They hear you talking. That rustling? That's them talking back. What are they saying?'

They're sad. Your lord brother will get no help from them, not where he's going. The old gods have no power in the south. The werewoods there were all cut down thousands of years ago. How can they watch your brother when they have no eyes? Bran had not thought of that. It

it frightened him. Like, I just love that. And again, because it shows us what Bran is like ready and willing to receive. Yeah. But it made me think of the, of like the conversation email you read last week. And then the conversation we had about. The wherewithal grip. Yes. On the bones of Aran. And the history. And the tradition and culture and myth and legend and magic and belief that permeates a place of,

the realm, a person, an idea, like through those roots. It's just one of my favorite things about the world that George built. I love it.

Where'd Steph go? I'm obsessed. Where'd Steph go? I'm obsessed with Alice, with Harrenhal. Harrenhal, we should say, for book readers who don't know, or for non-book readers who don't know, sits right next to a body of water called the God's Eye, and in the center of the God's Eye is a place called the Isle of Faces. My favorite. The Isle of Faces is a mysterious island that people cannot get to. How tantalizing. Okay. Here's a few things. Brand...

When you mention Bran of the Weirwood Tree, we have to mention the fact that Bran...

can like almost speak through the wherewood trees. In Thrones, we see like young Ned Stark at the Tower of Joy, like turn around and be like, what's that on the wind, right? There's this Jojen read passage that like the beginning of which has wound up on a million different bookmarks for sure. Yes. But the whole passage is this. Jojen says, a reader lives a thousand lives before he dies. Should this be our tat? Yeah.

We're going to be just covered, smeared in tattoos. Smattering? A reader lives a thousand lives before he dies. The man who never reads lives only one. Perfect. The singers of the forest had no books, no ink, no parchment, no written language. Instead, they had the trees and the weirwoods above all. When they died, they went into the wood, into leaf and limb and root and

And the trees remembered all their songs and spells, their histories and prayers, everything they knew about this world. Maesters will tell you that the weirwoods are sacred to the old gods. The singers believe they are the old gods. When singers die, they become part of that godhood.

This idea of the werewoods as the keepers of the history of Westeros. These almost like defenders, guardians of Westeros, the living history. Do you think the fact that the bed Daemon Targaryen is sleeping in is made of haunted werewood might be the reason, as you mentioned last week, Lionel Strong opted not to sleep in it? Could be.

Could be. As soon as Alice is like that bed, you know what I mean? Me and Wood, I would move. Yeah. Immediately. Yeah, it does make the trade-off of the smaller quarters, yeah, probably worth it if you're just in like a... Get out of the haunted bed. Deathbed, the bed that eats. Any other material. Get out of it, okay?

But most of all, I'm thinking about Jamie Lannister's where would stump dream, which happened outside of Harrenhal. This is not on the show. This is in the books because in the show, if you had to watch the show, you'd be like, why is he sleeping on a stump? That looks uncomfortable. But listen, Jamie Lannister in the book takes a nap on the stump of a where would where would tree outside of Harrenhal. Um,

I was always sad this didn't make it into the show because when he goes back to rescue Brianne from the bear pit, he says, I dreamed of you and I want to cry. She's like, why'd you come back? And he's like, I dreamed of you.

So this is the nature of this Weirwood stump dream. This idea of his proximity to the Weirwood stump and the kind of dream that it gave him is so fascinating to me. This dreaming of someone you want to have admire you. I'm going to cry. Jaime dreams of his Kingsguard brothers and of Brienne. This dream is also extremely Dagobah coded because he and Brienne are in a cave with flaming swords. Yeah.

They basically have lightsabers in a cave. This is what Jamie's dream is, right? One part, this comes before the longer passage. I remember you wrote an incredible piece about this. I mean, it just matters so much. I remember this piece. But in Jamie's dream, there's a sword. It was at his feet. Jamie groped under the water until his hand closed upon the hilt. Nothing can hurt me so long as I have a sword.

I mean, it's just practical that Daemon would constantly reach for his sword and all of this. But, like, the fact, like, that connection of, like, he's, like, where's Dark Sister? As soon as he, like, enters one of these dreams, where's Dark Sister? Yeah. Nothing can hurt me as long as I have a sword. Okay. And the identity, like, I was that. I was that hand. Yeah. Oh, God.

Okay. Here's the dream. Oswell went and John Derry, Lewin Martell, a Prince of Dorne, the White Bull, Gerald Hightower, Sir Arthur Dayne, Sword of the Morning, and beside them, crowned in mist and grief, with his long hair streaming behind him, rode Rhaegar Targaryen, Prince of Dragonstone, and rifle heir to the Iron Throne. Crowned in mist and grief. George! Fuck! Okay. Okay.

This dream that Jaime has about his fallen brothers of the Kingsguard is about his guilt and grief at the loss of them. Yes. But also his guilt and grief for not just for killing Aerys, the Mad King, but for failing to protect Rhaegar's wife, Elia Martell. You might have heard of her.

And their children, right? Quote,

I never thought he'd hurt them, Jaime's sword burning less brightly now. I was with the king. Killing the king, said Arthur. Cutting his throat, said Prince Luwin. The king you had swore to die for, said the White Bull. And after, you know, after this happens, he goes back to Harrenhal to rescue Brienne. Oh my god. So this idea of like these people, his brothers judging him, right? His brothers calling him up for being a king killer, right?

Then he does this great heroic thing afterwards. In his dream, Bran is by his side, naked with a flaming sword. George. Um...

But, like, he goes back and he rescues her from the bear pit because he's like, I want to, like, reclaim my heroic status. But the idea of, like, cutting off the head and the closeness of that dream with Damon's dream just, like, really struck me. Oh, man. Incredible. So that's Jamie's dream. Beautiful. Just incredible. Other dreams...

I don't—you already, like, we talked about the House of the Undying plenty. We don't need to go into—but Dany does have a dream that she was Rhaegar at the Trident, finding others. Jon has a guilt dream from A Dance with the Dragon of all the people who died to get him there. Yeah. Quote, as the dead men reached the top of the wall, he sent them down to die again. He slew a gray beard and a beardless boy, a giant, a gaunt man with filed teeth, a girl with thick red hair. Too late, he recognized Ygritte.

She was gone as quick as she had appeared. The world dissolved into a red mist. John stabbed and slashed and cut. He hacked down Donald Noy and gutted deaf Dick Follard. Corrin half-hand stumbled to his knees, trying in vain to staunch the flow of blood from his neck.

Quote, I am the Lord of Winterfell, John screamed. It was Rob before him now. His hair wet with melting snow. Longclaw took his head off. Then a gnarled hand seized John roughly. Okay. Dreams of beheading Rob? Oh, my God. And that one hits you so hard when you get to it because, like—

John's dreams feel so pretentious throughout the text. He's always dreaming of the Winterfall Crips. You are not a star. You don't belong. So you get to that. But this idea, the idea of John beheading Rob. They should have gotten Richard Madden. They should have done this. They should have done so many more dreams in Game of Thrones. Here we are now enjoying this. I'm thrilled. Yeah.

But John cutting Rob's head off and Damon cutting young Raniere's head off and this idea of, like, and also, like, seeing young Harris, you know, little baseball head. Like, you know, who else are we going to see is a big question we have. It's really fascinating. I...

need viserys if it's not viserys we riot if patty didn't slap the old wig back on i'm gonna be really upset okay later in fire and blood there's an allusion to waking the power in the stones of harrenhal and there's this question of like was harren the black a sorcerer are there spells beyond the blood and the mortar woven into the walls there and there's this quote

when Ygritte and Jon climb the wall. Yeah. And Jon says, it's made of ice, and Ygritte says, you know nothing, you know nothing, Jon Snow. This wall is made of blood. Right? And that's like, there's the way to interpret it of like, all the people who died to make this wall, or all the others who died to achieve that climb or whatever. But this idea...

And she talks about how, like, the wall tried to throw her off of it. You know what I mean? It's this, like, living, breathing. We talked last week about this idea of, like, hinges in the world. The wall and Harrenhal and, like, these inspelled structures in Westeros. The Barn Owl line is so fun. Great stuff. As a joke. But would we be surprised if she was literally a skin changer? Not in the slightest. Not in the slightest.

We talked about this a bit where we didn't analyze it in the non-spoiler section because they're full of spoilers. But Helena has all these drawings in her room and in her notebooks. And there's a drawing of Harrenhal with an owl next to it. Helena, you wacky little bug girl. I love you. Everything you do is a spoiler. It's amazing. Yeah.

There are so many theories about Alice Rivers. I love this idea that she's like, is she a child of the forest? I like this idea that like...

Because there's all these theories about other characters we haven't met in Fire and Blood. Are they children of the forest sort of in disguise as humans or something like that? Are they operating as agents of the Weirwood Network, of the Green Men on the Isle of Faces? What's going on there? And because we are in the Year of the Witch, we have to, of course, talk about...

The coolest, baddest witch of all time, which is Morgan Le Fay. I thought you were going to say Agatha. Agatha is also here. September 18th, we have a date. 2024, year of the witch. Two days after my birthday, we'll be with Agatha. Dune. Just witchy stuff all over the place. Acolyte. Acolyte. Morgan Le Fay. Yes. Morgana. My sister's name is Morgan, but that's not who we're here to talk about. Morgan Le Fay, or Nimue, is another sort of evocative Arthurian legend figure. But Morgan Le Fay was...

Arthur's sister, perhaps lover, perhaps tormentor, depending on which like history you read or whatever. But this idea of her and the Isle of Avalon, similar to the Isle of Faces, this is Isle that you can't get to. We talked about Avalon. Yeah. Was it our magical swords trope course, I want to say? I think so. Yeah. Yeah. I believe it was.

That was a fun one. Yeah, it really was. I was also thinking a lot of the John Key's poem, The Belle Dame Sans Mercé, The Beautiful One Without Mercy, this idea of a fairy queen who entraps men and then just leaves them there to rot in the fairy grotto as she sort of drains them of their life force and stuff like that. All of that is also in the mix here with Alice Rivers, which stuff rules. Incredible. Incredible.

There's this quote about the idea, the Isle of Faces is, as a location, is so mysterious to even book readers. There's this great theory that is the Isle of Faces where Rhaegar and Lyanna went to get married. I love that idea. We have no proof one way or another because George hasn't written it yet. But could they have gone there to get married? I look forward to finding out the details of this in book land one day. Yeah, in...

2037. Sam and Gilly casually discovered in the Septons' diary. The...

Also, I want to talk about everyone's favorite TV character, much more interesting character in the book, Quaithe. Quaithe who shows up in season two of Game of Thrones and then disappears. Everyone's like, what was up with the lady with the mask who was telling Daenerys that she had to go east to go west, et cetera, et cetera. But this, like, you will die in this place is real Quaithe vibes. Quaithe who loved to send dreams, who loved to do all sorts of spooky stuff in the book to Daenerys.

The Ghost of High Heart. Yes. Another incredible book figure who does not make it into the show. Yeah. In A Song of Ice and Fire. Gets her prophecies from the werewood trees. Yeah. And then there's The Night Fort. Mm-hmm.

The night forest yards have become a small forest. A twisted weirwood grows through a hole in the kitchen, and there are also trees growing in the stables. The ground level gate through the wall is sealed with frozen stone and rubble. This idea of a place where the weirwoods have taken over, like the yearning tendrils of a mushroom network, right? The weirwood net is what we like to refer to it. But the idea that like all the weirwoods are connected somehow under –

I love it. Someone and something has to keep the Rat King's children company. You know? There you go. Incredible stuff. I have a little bit more, but that's a lot of witch stuff. Back to you in the studio, Mallory Rubin. This is a special time to be fans of this world and fans of a fantasy story and have all of this. I'm thrilled. Thinking about Morgana, thinking about...

witches and how they're written about thinking about witches and their influence over kingdoms and kings and are the motivations nefarious or are they defensive of something? Are they more protective of like a pagan religion? Like what, what are we doing here? Well, this next part,

bit of the scene between Alice and Damon, we have some fodder for kind of asking that question about her, right? What is her agenda here? Like, what is she after? What is she trying to do? Because she mentions...

Basically, she says scenes from a marriage to David is what happens here. She's like, context clues. You're taking a solo vacation and you haven't sent any postcards. Like, were you fighting with your wife? Quarterly with your wife. I was interested in like...

Again, because we have seen Damon in real life and in dreams just cut heads off when he's not liking the way a conversation's going. Even though he does say, you know, tells her not to try me with your insulin switch, he does kind of just stand there and like let her say all of this stuff to him. Because he's like already stoned. Yeah, it's a hard thing, I imagine, to give obeisance, love to give obeisance, to one who replaced you as heir and a woman too. A guttled child. A guttled child bounced on your knee. I don't know.

why, but girl child sent me. Like, it's... Like, good old child. Incredible. So, yeah, what is your... I want to talk about what... She then gives Damon this mixture, and he...

Confoundingly and astonishingly consumes it, which I just simply would not do if I thought I were conversing with a witch and I've been having these very concerning dreams and visions. You're talking about this on Adelaide. Like, yeah. Persephone, don't eat that pomegranate. This was wild that Damon consumed this. So what do you think is in the mixture? What impact is it? We see the impact that it's having on Damon. How? Why? What is in there maybe that he is ingesting? And why?

Why is Alice giving it to him? What is your read on what we are watching and what sort of... Whatever it is. I mean, whatever it is, it's not poison. She licks it off her own hands. So whatever it is... Maybe she's built up a tolerance. To IOC powder? Incredible. My built up a tolerance reference is always Wags talking about body sushi and billions. Built up a tolerance. I always go Princess Bride. I apologize. Anyway. Oh, God.

She's mixing it when he walks into the kitchen. She's already at the mortar and pestle with this red goop, this red fibrous goop that...

has to be macerated weirwood leaves. Yeah. There's no way which this isn't. Also where all the red currants went for some color and taste? Yeah, for sweetness, red currant, weirwood leaves, and perhaps the blood of the former maester. Okay. Because there's this thing from A Dance with Dragons that non-book readers don't know about, but we have to reference here, which is referred to as Jojen paste. Yeah. It's this goop paste

That the children of the forest give to Bran after Jojen's already dead. He dies. The children of the forest give Bran some goop. This is the passage. Something about the look of it made Bran feel ill. Delicious. The red veins were only where would sap, he supposed. But in the torchlight, they looked remarkably like blood. He dipped the spoon into the paste, then hesitated. Will this make me a greenseer?

Your blood makes you a greenseer, said Lord Brandon. This will help awaken your gifts and wed you to the trees. Brandon did not want to be married to a tree, but who else would wed a broken, so literal, but who else would wed a broken boy like him? A thousand eyes, a hundred skins, wisdom deep as the roots of ancient trees, a greenseer. And a lot of people think that perhaps a long wist somewhere would sap.

They might have mixed in some essence of Jojen into the goop that they feed Bran. This is a very common theory, the Jojen paste. So, like – Essence of Jojen is quite a turn of phrase. Is it just wherewood leaves? Is it wherewood leaves plus, you know, some actual blood? Like, what are we doing here? The reason the wherewood leaves are red is this idea that, like, the trees have been fed blood. Yes. Yeah.

On the, like, horror front, I do want to, like, remind people that, like, as much as this is, like, going above and beyond the prompt that's in Fire and Blood in terms of, like, witchy shit...

And I love it. Just a reminder that Beric Dondarrion, a fire white, and Lady Stoneheart, a zombie, exist in the books. So, like, George has put horror in his, you know, his books since the beginning. Yes. But, like, what is Alice's aim with Damon is the question here. Yeah. What's your read on this?

I really want Simon Strong to talk about her because this is what made me go back and wonder, what's her relationship with the Strongs? Is she here as some sort of vengeful Lorax? This is for all the trees you cut down sort of spirit. Not a spirit, an actual person, but a figure in the Inherent Hall, dooming and cursing everyone who ever tries to inhabit it. Maybe, but she seems to have a fairly pleasant...

Perhaps. Seems like a great hang. Interaction, like, like, religion was, she doesn't seem invested in, like, ousting Simon Strong. Right. So what's the accord there? What's the detente? Right? Is she just like, the Strongs are a pretty benign house other than Laris, but he's back at King's Landing, so who cares? Yeah.

Is she trying to, is this part of a larger conspiracy to kill off the dragons? There's this really fun conspiracy theory in A Song of Ice and Fire about the maesters, where the maesters all trying to kill off the dragons because they consider them an abomination, you know, etc. Last thing I want to say on witch front, in the year of the witch. Dude. Yes! Yes!

The Bene Gesserit. Mm-hmm. The breeding program. This idea of these forces, these women, these spooky-ooky women... Yeah. ...working for thousands of years, Lady Jessica, to breed the Kwisatz Haderach. So, like, if they're trying to make the prince who was promised and, like, orchestrating things one way or another to make sure that...

Rhaegar meets Lyanna, among many other things, trimming and pruning the Targaryen family tree in one way or another to get to... Interesting. Jon and Dany. I love it. Could be fun. I love it. I love it. Witch stuff. Witch stuff! Oh, man. I can't wait for more. Unless Simon front...

I am wondering, like, is Simon clocking what's going on with Damon? Like, he's observing him in the next scene with Will and Blackwood. Or he's, like, loudly drooling. Well, like, but I don't know if you know. Does he understand that it's the influence of this place? But he also doesn't know Damon well enough. Like, Damon could just be, like, a milk-of-the-poppy addict. Like, who knows? That's why I'm curious, like, could he just assume that this was how Damon conducted himself? Classic Lord Ling behavior. Yeah, or is he like, yeah, I've seen this before, you know, in this cursed place. Yeah.

I'd love to hear more. SirSimonHobbitsAndDragonsAtGMO.com. You have so many. So many. Oh, man. So, that was incredible. Thank you for that. Sensational. Flawless. I mean, I just like... We have embraced our paleness. I just like theories and witches. My last. Same. Same. And werewolves. We cut to Damon. Yeah. Drooling. Just drooling.

off his fucking head in this scene with our beloved Willem Blackwood, our little buddy from Andor, back years later, man-grown, no longer vying for Rhaenyra's hand, though he's happy to mention that here, no longer just casually. He's like, for the casual audiences at home, I was the kid in season one. I stabbed the Bracken guy at Storm's End. No, now he's more methodically plotting for and scheming for the demise of House Bracken. So this is just great stuff in every respect.

Damon says, well met. What might I do for you? And Willem says, it was you who summoned me, Chris. I love when you feel such intense, visceral, secondhand embarrassment for someone who you're watching on TV or reading about. I was just cringing watching Damon, but I loved it. It did make me wonder how much time Damon is missing. Yeah, well, it's just been mere weeks since Sarah's done.

And only a fortnight since Kristen Cole began his march. So those are the BBY timestamps I can give you. You know I love a BBY timestamp. Yeah. Willem is... We talked about most of this already. This is like when, you know, he mentions that Vernira had the true blood of the dragon. And Damon is basically like, would you...

march with me without leave of your lord, right? The Tullys aren't going to sign off. Are you with me? And Willem starts to answer those questions. Damon does not hear what he's saying at first because he starts to hallucinate at this table in the middle of a conversation that his second wife, Lena, is the cupbearer at the table. Everyone is looking at him like, what is happening to you right now? And surely Damon is also wondering...

What is happening to me right now? I am like a little bit worried because in the... There are many Damon glimpses from the trailers for the entire seasons that we haven't seen yet. And the trailer for episode five... Your house will burn. We're finally going to get your house will burn moment. He's going to go on crack season. I just don't think Damon should... Don't wear wooden drive. Yeah, but Jojen Pace didn't fly. It seems like a bad idea. All hopped up on Jojen Pace. The...

The ghost at the table inspired, this is the last element of Witch Corner, and it gets to coincide beautifully with Shakespeare Corner. Here we are. The bar is always welcome. Always welcome. Always. Sally, our listener Sally, who is an English teacher, love English teachers, wrote in a little Shakespeare thing.

Macca's corner some Macbeth here and like Gil Rankin is Scottish which just makes us all feel much more Macbeth-y than ever before Haunted Castles witches prophecies great Macbeth stuff so to recap the witches in Macbeth spur Macbeth to realize his ambition to be a king and a prophecy that he allows to destroy him and that sort of seems like part you know like

Is it hard to do obeisance to a girl child you bounce on your knee? Girl child you bounce on your knee. It reminds me of like, you know, Rayne saying to Alison, like, haven't you ever imagined yourself in the Iron Throne? Yeah, absolutely. Like, you know, what thoughts do you have here?

The knocking at the doors that, like, sort of keep announcing the dream for Damon. Sally draws a connection to the Porter scene in Macbeth where the knocking, the constant irritating knocking is this inevitable, unstoppable guilt and consequences coming for Macbeth. And then...

Which is interrupted by Banquo's ghost. So Banquo's ghost is this, like, iconic literary device important thing. But this idea that, like, it's very similar. Where Macbeth's like, ah!

And everyone's like, what are you looking at? Quiet. It's my big friend. Do I get murdered? Okay. Oh, my God. Last but not least, Sally writes, overall, I'm not exactly sure what the insistence of the supernatural signifies, except that in Damon's case, he has repeatedly denied and scorned the presence of the mysterious, the intangible, the possibility of portents. Signs. Signs.

and a world beyond this one of flesh and blood. He has done so to his own detriment as the ghosts of his past have come knocking not to be denied entrance by any rational means. Harrenhal seems to represent the haunted chamber of Damon's mind much like castles, houses, and rooms do for Macbeth and characters in Edgar Allan Poe's story which is why the beating of the heartbeat of the floorboards references earlier. Love this from Sally. Sensational. Incredible. Thus endeth Witch Corner. For now. For now.

Tune in next week! Alright, you want to talk about this stupid blockade? We can keep this next one quick because we have some meaty scenes to still hit. But we do briefly go back to the Green Council. And I'm just...

Spinning the small ball, stewing in his sense of inadequacy. And Laris is reporting that the Crownland lords are grousing. I love how often we're hearing the word grousing. Yeah. The dragons are eating too much of our livestock. Orwell says, like, city's starting to feel the pinch from the blockade. And...

And Ironrod is like, well, we can just, they can either keep shipping it or we can just take all their holdings. To which Tylan says, great idea, we're out of corn. So in the book, we know like Tylan splits the treasury right into four. Yeah. It just feels like there are a lot of mentions in this episode about money. Money.

The resources, and this has been a trend throughout the season. We think of our beloved Hugh and his beautiful wife and their ailing child and how hard it was to get the chicken for that pot. That soup, as I still say, it looked wonderful. I know we had to sprinkle on some added seasoning, but the seasoning was there. The seasoning was at hand.

Then Ironrod basically is like, not all is grim and bleak right now. Here's some good news. The Kingmaker, they're calling him. And with Aemon and Vhagar also at the ready, we're a formidable opponent. And Aegon just storms out of the room as he hears this, says that they're all boring him. And, you know, there's that moment in the earlier, the High Valyrian sequence where we talked about this, like...

The way that Larys in particular is looking at Aemond there and is like, you have my attention. It's the opposite here, the way he looks at Aegon. He's like, you're not worth my time. Yeah. Right? Again, like, you are not a serious person. This is just so sad for Aegon. Pathetic stuff from him here. But then we head into a scene where I go from feeling like, oh boy, this is how you're behaving, into like, I feel an incredible amount of pity for you. Yeah.

Let's talk about this scene between Alicent and Aegon. Yeah. Aegon storms right into his chambers. Mom's already there. She's there. Now, if Aegon were my son, I would not go through his drawers. I'm just gonna say it. I would not. Aegon, who you watched, you walked in on, like, wanking it. Doing the full Roman Roy out of his bedroom window. I would

I would no longer enter his chambers without knocking, and I certainly would not be going through his cabinets. She is looking for Viserys's books. God knows what else she stumbled upon. We have a lot of serious stuff to talk to, but it wouldn't be us if we didn't spend one moment on the Pussy Posse before that. Leo, Eddie, and Marty. Holy fuck. You know, Aegon gives him the, like, I gotta deal with my mom, like, go, like, a little gesture. And Leo turns...

I'm just right into Marty and their chest bump. It's so embarrassing. These doofuses can't even leave a room properly. What are they going to do now that I got this? This killed me. Am I reading too much into this? This just occurred to me on this last rewatch, and I'm unconfident in this, but...

Eddie, Marty, and Leo are like two white guys and a black dude. One of the white guys has like strawberry blonde hair and the other has like dark curly hair. And I'm like, is this not, are they not doubles for Tylan, Jasper, and Orwell? They just look like younger, shittier versions of the three shitty fixtures of the council. Will we ever hear no time for amusements, Marty? Or will we ever hear Tylan say he's never fucked a woman? No.

I think Viserys meant Aegon to rule. I just, I just, I love these guys. They're incredible. Whoever thought of this, it's a genius. Absolutely. It's a genius. Okay, now it's time to bring the mood down. Let's bring the mood right on down. Alicent can tell that Aegon is in a temper. She asks what's wrong, though she does not, to be clear,

like the answer is not going to lead to any sort of nurturing or comfort. Yeah. He says, basically, like my counsel doesn't give a shit what I think, right? They don't take me seriously. And her reply is, with derision and like a kind of scoff,

What thoughts would you have? Right before she says that, Olivia Cooke made the decision to glance at the dragon orgy on the wall. Oh, man. She's like, you haven't replaced your dragon orgies with tasteful seven-pointed stars. What thoughts could you possibly fucking have? I'm glad that those orgies are still there. Me too. Those orgy tapestries are there. Someone has to care about history. Oh, man. Okay, so...

This is just a very painful, it's a fascinating scene, and it's a painful one. Aegon had to hear a lot of tough feedback from his grand sire, Otto Hightower, in the second episode of the season, when he dismissed him. Including, after all I've done for you, thoughtless, feckless, self-indulgent. We have not really seen, like, that was painful.

riveting for us to watch, but we didn't feel quite as deeply for Aegon there because we hadn't watched him, like, seek something from Aldo the way we have seen him seek it from Alicent. Like, obviously, we talked a lot in season one about that great post wanking it from the window. You are the challenge conversation, but...

Episode eight is when she says, you are no son of mine. Now, she is disgusted with him for something disgusting. Yes. That's still a thing that he heard his mother say to him, right? And he says in that same episode, like, I did not ask for this. I've done everything you've asked me to, and I try so hard. I try so hard, but it will never be enough for you or father. Like, he has just never felt good enough for his own family, the very, the people who are seeking to install him. Yeah. Like,

And we've talked a lot about the cycles, but Alicent so often felt that way, like used and deployed as a pawn because of someone else's game. Yeah. She's in a position now where she's speaking of Otto, the person who often made her feel that way and used her that way, as like a statesman without compare. Well, the rewrite of history here is so interesting. It's every time that Otto's gone.

Right? True. She's like, he's the one. Yes, but not just that. It's also like Viserys. Yes, absolutely. Viserys is getting a history wash. This was fascinating. Mere weeks after his death. Because she said to Rhaenys in season one, episode nine, the Iron Throne was yours by blood and by temperament. Viserys would have lived his days a country lord.

I mean, she had an agenda in saying that. Yeah, she was trying to woo her. She's also not wrong in saying it. But we'll get back to this when we talk about Rhaenyra a little bit more. But like this idea of Viserys, the great peacekeeper, you know, on the heels of Jaehaerys, the conciliator, like this idea of him, like he had...

There were things that he really fucked up. And all of this bloodshed comes from him. It's why we spent all season with Viserys' bad decisions last year. Because it is why we are here. So for him to get a history wash of like, he lived in an era of peace. Right. In the hope that you might be half the king your father was. Also, like, if that's what you want...

help him learn how like nobody ever tried to teach Aegon to be king no Aegon carries a lot of blame and has done a lot of awful things but no one ever tried to teach him to be king and so like you think of something like yeah no one ever tried to teach Aemon either though and he studied history and philosophy oh my god I have honestly no no rebuttal it's a fantastic point well stated

The moment I was thinking of was at the beginning of this season that Allison's in auto scene when Allison says, we only need to mind egg on until the novelty of rule is spent. And so on the one hand, when she is laying into him here, like I ruled while your father was ailing and barely functional, just a rotting corpse. I ruled and you don't come to me for wisdom.

I think that is completely valid and, of course, is fueling her resentment. Right. But the flip side, the inverse of that is also true, which is, like, there was no nurturing of Aegon. No. No effort made to try to prepare him to do this well. The thing through this whole scene is that Alyson is right. Yes. Yes.

But maybe now is not the time to communicate that message. Right. And certainly maybe not in this way, but also return to the reminder of what she is, like, physically going through. Yeah. And the scene, and then also just, like, rocked by what Rhaenyra said to her, you know, in episode three. And that part feels, again, like, very human to me. Yeah. Like, I love, actually, when the characters do things in the story that we're like, ah, because that's so relatable. Not me, I'm perfect, but other people, yeah. Everyone but you. Yeah.

it's never aired yeah the it is so apparent that she doesn't think agon is fit to rule and he isn't and it was apparent that she when she conceded it but also it was a concession that almost felt like this weight lifted that she got to say out loud a thing that she knew in her soul was right which is that ronera would have been a good queen and this is like her guilt because the thing is at the end of the day misunderstanding or not fucking everyone naming their kid agon or not

Let's see if Viserys had said it. Yeah. If he had changed his mind at the end. Would he have been right to put Aegon on the throne? She knew who Aegon was. No, well, Mallory. The ramblings...

A decaying man, high on milk of the poppy, should always be taken quite seriously. Oh, my love. My love. That was actually, my love part was very moving. But yeah, so she's just like her guilt, right? Did I get this wrong? Did I make the wrong choice? And now it is too late and I'm stuck by it. Confronting. Well, all the negativities she wants to turn inward, she's just sort of spewing outward at him. All that said.

We can identify the causes. Sin begets sin. I don't know if you've thought about this, but sin begets sin. Wow. Simon. Many people are saying. The moment when Aegon, just like broken, is rocking in his chair and saying, like, what would you have me do, mother? Real, like, Joffrey at the Blackwater. Like, what would you have me do? Did she say that she had urgent business? The...

Fuck the king. Fuck the king. Do simply what is needed of you. Nothing. The way that Aegon's face fell. Yeah. Like your mother saying that to you? Yeah. You would just be a broken person after hearing that. Unlike Rhaenys going into battle, having anything to do with her conversation with Corlys, these three chipping away at Aegon, which is Aemond, then Jasper,

fucking Jasper and then his mom all being like you're useless fuck you you're not you're and which is what he thought of himself absolutely right anyway so he's like to all then I guess I'll get on Sunfire okay Joe it is time to head into the final stretch of this episode we're heading to Rook's Rest Gawain has some feedback for Kristen it's fucking madness

Right? No, I'm not just afraid to die. I'm worse. I'm rational. Yeah. And you can start to feel it's the glint in Kristen's eye. Something is afoot. Yeah. Over on Dragonstone.

something is afoot it's for nero and stephan still in there still in their disguises i like the idea of keeping like the the like the fake nose and mustache on as you made it back into your own living room it's like row and the boat back across the bay or however they did wonderful stuff so we kind of like we talked actually about a lot of this earlier but this is where jace greets his mother in plain view of all the assembled with uh

specific energy, right? The way that he says, to support the war that your vassals have been fighting in your absence. Your grace, the look on Rhaenyra's face in response to that was just absolutely sensational. And like we do, you know, again, we have to say we supported Rhaenyra's mission, right? Go to King's Landing, make the appeal to Alyson, do the desperate thing. The fact that you're a character who can say the desperate thing, I'm willing to do the desperate thing when no one else is, is to her credit.

Oh, they have so many points. And to come back and hear this list of all of the ways that your enemy has gained ground on you is a brutal blow. And I think...

A couple things. One, it underlines this idea like Rhaenyra's absence first looking for poor little Luke's body and now this. It's a problem. And that's true in the book, written differently in the book. Just sort of like she was locked away. Here she's active, but still her absence is a problem. And I think that's a very clever way to handle all of that. Jace...

calling her out in all the ways that some viewers were calling her out last. This is so stupid. This is so reckless. And, and Jace is like, yeah, this is so stupid. This is so reckless. So hopefully it's mollifying to some people who are like, why would you do something so stupid? Uh, the characters agree with you. The writers in the writer's room agree with you. Um,

And also, I feel so bad for Stefan Darklin, who comes in and he's like, my dad? And they're like, dead. Anyway. Brutal. Brutal. Jesus is like, I'd like to get back to talking about how you should let me go out of my dragon. Sorry, Stef. Mom. Sorry. Yeah. So here it is. Rhaenyra says it.

I inherited 80 years of peace from my father. Before I was to end it, I needed to know that there was no other path. And now I do. Only one choice remains to me. Either I win my claim or I die. We see Masaria at this moment, like, emerge. Obsessed with that. I love that. Great. It's perfect. Fantastic. Laris has a seat at the table. She doesn't. Right. But she has the information. She's watching. She is an observer. And...

There's a great little moment where we see how Rhaenyra, much like Aegon, but in different ways and for different reasons, is baffled by the Rook's Rest plot. She's like, wait, what? And this conversation that Alfred says, he's daring us, daring us to act. I love that they could acknowledge that and see that and know that was true, but the moment has come where it doesn't matter if you're being dared, right? You do have to act. You actually cannot let Criston...

march up the coast and take seat after seat, castle after castle from the houses that were either sworn to you or whose members actually sit on your council, block off your land and do nothing, nothing to defend the people who have sworn. My only obeisance. Obeisance, who have done obeisance to you. They did a real obeisance. My only note would be send all your dragons. Yeah.

Well, you know. You're going to break the seal. It's a learning experience for everyone. And Rhaenyra does say, right, she says, there are those who have mistaken my caution for weakness. Let that be their undoing. I will go. So this reminds us of that conversation with Mysaria last episode about, well, I hope we do not confuse mercy with pliancy.

It feels very gendered to me. Absolutely. To our point about Viserys being considered a peacemaker, right? This idea, yeah, that Rhaenyra has to constantly be worried that any act of kindness or softness or whatever, people think she's weak and a pushover because she's a woman. Right.

Exactly. And, like, I really loved, obviously, they talk her out of it. And so then that becomes out of going herself. And that becomes a contrast with Aegon, who nobody's even there to talk to. No one's even checking in on him. He just goes out on his own. He's like, to war then. To war then. Even though she doesn't go, Rhaenyra...

Stating her intent to, like, felt I loved. It felt important. Like, it's obviously, like, we can think of so many moments where, you know, Dani is out. Some of them are bad and not good, eventually. But in the earlier days, like, it made me think about... Some of them are bad. Some of them are bad. Some of them are bad. Does anyone hear any bells? I'm just joking. It's okay.

It's tough. It's tough still. Does anyone hear anything? You know, when she goes to fly beyond the wall and, like, Tyrion is chasing after, like, the most important person in the world can't go to the most dangerous place in the world. And, like, that's the energy here, too. But Dany did it, right? It's going to matter after the battle that she offered to go. Yes, exactly. Yeah. And, like, you know, you think of, like, Arya saying, like, my brother, they say my brother always goes where the fighting is thickest. Or, like, a moment where Jon can challenge Ramsay and say, like...

are your men going to want to fight for you if they knew you wouldn't fight for them? Like, this idea of, like, a leader who was willing to be on the front lines, it does really matter. Swing the sword. Yeah, absolutely. Pass the sentence. Swing the sword. She won't let Jace swing the sword. She won't let Jace go, right? You lack experience. Bernice is here to say that she has experience. Bow ready from smushing a bunch of small folks. Can't swim.

Cannot be that. We talked about this on Untalked the Thrones and our confusion over that line. And like, you know, is this about just all of the patrolling of the gullet? Which like she's, you know, she's putting on armor, going out there. Obviously, Maelys had a prior rider, Alyssa, but we don't have any battle insights from there. There's no battle for Maelys. Yeah. And so this question we asked on Untalked the Thrones. Did she fight at the Stepstones?

Could there just be some involvement in a battle that, again, because it's like the Red Queen and the Queen Who Never Was didn't make the historical account? I'm fine with that. It's just funny in proximity to 80 Years of Peace, which is a line that comes right before it. A contrast so stark that even Andy Greenwald texted us to be like, how was there 80 Years of Peace and Rainey's?

went to battle. How does that work? Always lots of little skirmishes popping up about this classic Targaryen royal family, honestly, to be like peace as long as like they're fine. Sure. Fair enough. Fair enough. Yeah. So this did stand out to us. It's a little odd, but you know. The sentiment is beautiful. Right. Like when she when she says to Maelys, but like, yeah.

Maelys is certainly more experienced in general. Absolutely. Seasoned. Seasoned. So in Fire and Blood, you know, we've shared this quote before, but we go from Viserys's death right into... So he never woke. He was 52 years old and he had reigned over most of Westeros for 26 years. Then the storm broke and the dragons danced. And so like...

here we are, right? Then the storm broke and the dragons danced. And now the non-book readers or even book readers, when you read that line, then the storm broke and the dragons danced, you can just see the Togar and Maelys or Sunfyre and Maelys like tangled in the sky. It's just incredible. Okay, well, speaking of, it's time to talk about the last couple scenes of the episode. We have the actual Battle of Vorksrest, which we'll get to, but before then, we have this... You've been waiting for this. Like, incredible sequence. Yes. Yes.

Like, first hearing Rhaenyra tell Jace about the Song of Ice and Fire, there was, like, a part of me that just, honestly, just because we've been talking so much about Jace's trip north and how that will influence how he receives us, I was like, but what did Jace say next? And I assume that will still come. Rooks rest! I want to know what Jace thinks! It's fascinating because I was waiting for so long for that moment, and, like...

I was just so enraptured and swept up by the way that this was structured and sequenced, the way that this conversation between Rhaenyra and Jace plays over Rhaenys and Maelys and Aegon and Sunfyre readying for battle, readying to head out.

It's like the soundtrack to the dawn of war. It was just like chilling. And, you know, we talked about how on Talk the Thrones, how they're standing, how Rhaenyra and Jace are standing in front of this dragon skull on Dragonstone. And like, I'm all in on this theory. I just, I really feels like it's Meraxes. Though it is canonically established in the book that Meraxes' skull is at the Red Keep. For folks who maybe didn't listen to Talk the Thrones or watch it, Meraxes is a dragon that took a bolt. Meraxes.

It's one. It took a bolt through the eye. And so this dragon skull, I thought it was stone, but you were paying him. Like a blown out eye. It has a blown out eye. And so is it Meraxes, whose rider was...

Rhaenys? Rhaenys. And just... A different Rhaenys, obviously. Yes, different Rhaenys. And so, like, that kind of, like, harbinger of what's to come, but also just the way Rhaenyra was, like... Their positions in front of her, she's, like, look... She looks at it and made me think of her, like, studying the conquest in the books earlier in the season. She knows what awaits. Not literally for Rhaenys and Maelys, but, like, what it means for war to be dawning, right? Have you seen the junket clip of, uh...

Olivia Cooke and Emma Darcy talking about like their favorite scene partners. Yeah. The question is like, who's your favorite scene partner? And Emma Darcy is like, you. And Olivia's like, no, you can't pick me. And Emma's like, oh, I'm not going to pick anyone. Then they're like, there's this scene with Harry Collette. Yes.

Where I'm just speaking to him. And he's so beautifully lit. And I got so emotional. And it made me think like he's my own son. Like he looks so beautiful. And I'm like, it's this scene. It's definitely this scene. She said this before the season started. So I didn't know what scene she was talking about. But I was like thinking about that. I'm like, it's this scene when she's telling him about the Song of Ice and Fire. And also, Emma Darcy is so talented. Because I, almost every other time, Patty did it okay too. But almost every other time someone says...

It's a song of ice and fire. It's a Game of Thrones. It takes me well out of it. I just don't like it. Yeah, yeah. Emma crushed it. Just sort of tossed it away. It was like really good. Fantastic stuff. I also love this idea of belief, right? And how this plays into it because Rhaenyra says that

She waited to tell Jace. We were wondering, like, when is this going to happen? By the way, right? Because I was unsure that I believed it myself, which of course makes us think this parallel to Viserys, who's hammered in front of the bonfire at the haunt, said to Alicent, like, I named her out of love, and because I no longer believed. Believed in what? His dream. A son born to him wearing the Conqueror's crown. And so this ties into the idea of what...

The knowledge of this prophecy has led Targaryens or others, like we talked about Stannis as an example, right? And he wouldn't have the Aegon dream specificity, but just the prince that was promised. He's a distant branch on the tree. Yeah.

What it would lead them to do, and like, you know, Chris asked us this question on Talk the Thrones about like, is Rhaenyra using the prophecy as like justification? And Rhaenyra does say, but to unite the realm, I had to send the dragons to war. The horrors I have just loosed cannot be for a crown alone. That is why I must believe what Viserys told me when he named me his heir. So,

To go from the season one finale when dragons flew to war, everything burned, I do not wish to rule over a kingdom of ash and bone, into the shift from the prophecy being the reason you can't allow yourself to become embroiled in this conflict into, well, like... To war then. To war then, because this is the path to protecting the realm, is getting through this, is fighting this fight. I've done everything I can to avoid it. I dressed up as a septa. I did everything. Had a knife.

All of it. I've begun badly. All of it. We'll talk more over our future pods about what other Targaryens might have done with this knowledge in mind. But it's tantalizing. It's a fascinating thing to track. Tantalizing. Absolutely. So then we get the dragon sequences readying for the flight. I wept talking about this and Maelys' eventual death and looking back at Rhaenys. I broke down in tears on Talk to Thrones talking about this. And like...

The way that this was cut together, I just thought was exquisite. And, you know, first we see Aegon and we go from him like knocking over the dragon pitcher, right? The golden dragon pitcher. There's your peace idea. And you can just feel like even though we're building from something kind of something sort of shameful and petty from Aegon there, as soon as you're with him and Sunfyre, you're just swept up in what that bond is.

and what it looks like and how it feels. Tom Glen Kearney, like, his face, Aegon gets, like, a kind of boyish look on his face and he lets the dragon, like, nuzzle him, sort of, like, rock him back on his heels. The headbutt. Yeah. Just getting to see Sunfire in full. Like, when they left Driftmark in season one and we saw the three silhouettes of the dragons making their way back to King's Landing, we're like,

Technically, Dreamfire and Sunfire have been in the show, but here it is at last. We've been waiting to see Sunfire. Sunfire was said to be the most beautiful dragon ever seen upon the Earth. That's from Fire and Blood. The idea that Aegon reworked his sigil, not just to avoid the confusion, but to honor his beautiful golden dragon. No.

We got, as you might imagine, so many emails about the dragon-dragon rider relationship. We don't have time to read all of them. I'm so sorry. But here I do want to shout out our listener, Sarah, who did an interesting analysis of the difference between Aegon greeting Sunfyre and Maelys and Rhaenys. It bleeds into sort of the analysis of the battle, but Maelys and Rhaenys is these like

compatriots, right? Sisters in arms, sort of like we've, we dug coal together, we've been through it. Yeah, here we go, we're partners. Yes. Aegon and Sunfire being more, as Sarah writes, like a boy and his golden retriever. Just this sort of like really sweet, like whatever. And then like, she talks about

Aemond using Vhagar more like a weapon. I'm not sure I wholly agree with that. But I do think, though he didn't get this like greedy before battle isolated moment, I do think the moment when he's like,

like wait Vhagar and Vhagar just sort of like flumps into the leaves sort of was that similar moment of just sort of like here's a person and their beast their friend who is also this companion a monster of war you know but like yeah the nature of that bond and connection a connection that transcends

even though they are communicating with language, with commands, like the way that they understand each other or the depth of feeling and devotion that is on display. It was so beautiful. So like, I love that little sunfire headbutt, like very, very my pet greeting me at home. I just thought it was so sweet and wonderful. And I think you calling out Egon's like boyish smile is really wonderful. And like the way that

And Maelys rose in the Dragonmount to greet Rhaenys. And like, you know, you think of the number of times over this period where she would have been meeting her that way and she gets on her and they go to the Gullet and this becomes a routine. But how different you could tell it felt for both of them, like the way that she presses Rhaenys.

her hands against her and the look we get that we're primed for the final did we rest enough here we go must gorge and rest we're primed for that final uh back shoulder look and in the final moment of life because we get a little look back here and then that way that renees looks at her and smiles and like their bond is a really i mean all of the dragon dragon rider bonds are amazing in different ways but like the renees maylee's one is a really cool one in the books and

I love, we've shared this passage, I think, on other pods, but I thought it would be a fun one to read because it tells us a lot about, first of all, just how long they've been together. But like the spirit, you know, at the heart of their relationship, a dragon rider since the age of 13, this is from Fire and Blood, she insisted upon arriving for the wedding on Maelys, the Red Queen, the magnificent scarlet she-dragon that had once born her aunt Alyssa.

Daemon and Viserys's mother. Mm-hmm. We can go back to the ends of the Earth together, she promised Ser Corlys, but I'll get there first as I'll be flying. I just, like, love that. I know. I love it. And so, again, you feel that history and the length of that experience, battle or otherwise, in contrast to, like, Sunfire does not have experience with this, and you can tell, and it's heartbreaking. And, like...

I, I'm eager to see more from like, uh, Damon and Caraxes or Rhaenyra and Cyrax. Like we saw Cyrax like mourning with Rhaenyra a couple of times, but I would love to see even more of this. And I think they did such a good job. We've talked about this in the spoiler section, such a good job leading up to this battle, uh,

giving us so much Rhaenys material in the three episodes leading up to this and especially like starting the season with Maelys and Rhaenys coming into the Dragonmont. Yes. You know, like. Yes, with Daemon saying. Yeah, we gotta go. I need you to come help me take on Vhagar. I can't do it on my own. It's tough. A tough rewatch. My God. Okay, to the battle. The battle of Rook's Rest. Rhaenys and Aegon fly out from Dragonstone from King's Landing.

Aegon is decked out in that Valyrian steel armor. And then we see the ground troops. They're already engaged in battle. And then the dragon arrives. Maelys is here. Burning Crispin's men puts a new spin on Ser Crispin. Ser Crispin, was it? And Gawain rides in to chastise Crispin. He's like, this was your plan? Right? Audience insert. Yeah.

What is that? You left us exposed for the slaughter. And he's like, this is, right? It is all going. He'll have a different response shortly, but right now, like, it's happening. This is the trap. Ser Criston was not dismayed. It goes in fire and blood. Aegon's hand had expected this, counted on it. They wanted to lure the dragon. Then here comes the fucking king.

And this is not the move. Did you enjoy the very Lord of the Ringsian, like, light the beacon's horn sounding to alert Aemon and Vhagar and the way Vhagar rises? Oh, yeah. Oh, exceptional stuff. Wonderful, wonderful stuff. So Aegon sees Sunfire flying overhead, Jo. What does he say? Idiot. Excuse me. Aemon sees. Yeah. Aemon sees Aegon and Sunfire. Idiot. In Valyrian. Idiot. Wait. Waits Vhagar. That's not what he says. He says it's in Valyrian. Okay. Okay.

And then Gwyn's like, your plan is to send the fucking king into battle? And Cole's like, no, that wasn't the plan. And then Cole rallies the troops. I hate to say this.

Gives us a fucking Aragorn, Braveheart, Theoden, King speech. Yes. Little clear eyes, full hearts. Now to ruin. Like, I mean, just... And it works. It does. And the men ride into battle with fucking... They don't go back into the tree line. They go into battle... Under dragon fire. Under dragon fire. Chris and Cole, you suck, but that worked. So good job. For the seven have blessed and shielded this host with divine purpose. I love that even in a moment where we have to admire...

Kristen's ability to mobilize the troops, we can interrogate this hypocrisy of him cloaking himself always in this idea of righteousness. Literally cloaking his horse in the seven-pointed star insignia. So Aegon and Rhaenys, they both urge their dragons forward, and they meet. One in Common Tongue, one in Valyrian. Incredible stuff. Incredible stuff. And Sunfire looks so tiny. The scaling of the dragons across the stretch was just exceptional. So tiny next to Maelys.

shredding Sunfire's chest with her talons as dragon fought dragon with tooth and claw and flame. I liked hearing Alan Taylor talk about how the birds of prey in terms of the physics of it, the movement. Yeah.

Jo, you mentioned you were struck by the way that, like, the smoke and boiling blood. Boiling blood. Gouts of blood. Pouring out of Sunfire. I was, like, very, very... This was where I started to get just, like, deeply... I was... It's painful to watch scenes, Sunfire...

struggling to rise back into the air so badly wounded already. If I'm going to, by the way, if I'm going to consume blood, I prefer it mashed up with some red currant in the kitchen. Not from an injured dragon. No dragon injuries. But not boiling forward on my head. No dragon injuries and no boiling blood on the head. Yeah. This reminded me a little bit of, this reminded me a little bit of Viserion and Rhaegal.

You know, after being kept in the catacombs in Meereen. Locked up. Not paired with riders, locked up, that like, they're so much smaller than Drogon when the three of them unite in the sky. Yeah.

And Sunfire is not ready for this. And so it's interesting to compare, to think about this when we have to assess, like, was Rhaenyra right to tell Jace not to go? Yes. You know, right. Because like, I mean, you know, Jace and Vermax had a very successful trip up to the Vale of the North. Maybe Jace and Vermax plus Rhaenys and Maelys, but still, I do not like Jace's odds there. Yeah. No. So we have a third.

The dragon has three heads, and there are three dragons in this battle. The giant wings coming up above the tree line reminds me of Vhagar looming up the outside, the wall of Storm's End in the rain last season. This just sort of like always looming, always monstrous, always best to be seen in only parts of her as she looms. It was like a horror sequence here at the end.

Aegon is thrilled. So sad. Thrilled to see his brother celebrates his arrival. Thank the gods. We recall, of course, the way that Aegon spoke of his brother earlier in the season. My closest blood, our best sword. I welcome him. This is when Alicent was like, why is he at the small council meeting? He's not invited. My brother at least knows his place. He's as loyal as a hound. I can set him and his dragon on my foes at will.

But also the shit that he said to him at the brothel. It's like two sides of the coin of Aegon. Absolutely. Yes. Let's talk about what Aemon does. Dracarys. He sees his brother and his brother's dragon and Rhaenys and her dragon entwined. And he issues that command. Burns them. So this is something we asked you and Mitchell about. You'll get to hear this in the interview. But there's obviously a lot to parse here, right? In terms of how active of an effort is this to, I will try to kill my brother. Right. Yeah.

it's his own damn fault he got in the way. Exactly. Yeah. So let's read the passage here from Fire and Blood just because this was a real update for us as book readers to see in the show, first of all, that Aegon's arrival is a surprise. And second of all, that what happens to him was of his brother's doing. Would you like to read the Fire and Blood passage here? Then came an answering roar. Yeah.

Two more winged shapes appeared. The king astride Sunfire the Golden and his brother Aemond upon Vhagar. Kristen Cole had sprung his trap and Rhaenys had come snatching at the bait.

Now the teeth closed around her, Princess Rhaenys made no attempt to flee. With a glad cry and a crack of her whip, she turned Maelys towards a foe. Against Vhagar alone, she might have had some chance. But against Vhagar and Sunfyre together, doom was certain. The dragons met violently a thousand feet above the field of battle as balls of fire burst and blossomed so bright that men swore later that the sky was full of suns.

And then they just crash is how it's described. Right. It's like the three of them crash. And the chips fall where they may after that. None of this, like, maneuvering that we get here. And the maneuvering is so good. Yes. So exciting, so devastating. The connection between Rainies and Mailies throughout. Yeah. Yeah.

The logistics of it, too, are so interesting to me. This idea that, like, Vhagar hits the ground. Yeah. But then he hits the ground kind of running. Yep. And then just sort of, like, swoops off a cliff. Mm-hmm. And chills behind a castle. Yeah, lying in wait. Um...

I think this idea that, like, how could you possibly lose track of Vhagar? She's so big. Mm-hmm. Okay, tell me. I'm going to channel Bela and say, like, you tell me after you, like, you're, like, half blind with smoke. You've had flame, like, you've been flame blasted a couple times in the air. Yeah. I have no notes for Rhaenys. Chaos and carnage everywhere. Is your interpretation of Rhaenys turning back around, given she had, like, a couple opportunities to leave? Mm-hmm.

that I can't let we talked about this about talk of thrones but like I can't let a threat like if I have any chance at all I probably don't let me strap myself in yes but if I have any chance at all of taking if I have any chance at all of taking Amon and Vhagar out I have to

take it now. I think so. Yeah, I think like Renise is... So Renise has seen Sunfire, poor beautiful Sunfire, so badly injured, howling. They crash down into the tree canopy. Renise has seen this. And it's like, Renise also saw...

Aemon burn his... recklessly burn his own brother. Like, it's not just... Like, the threat cannot be overstated. Yes. Right? Vhagar and Aemon have already killed Luke and Arax. Like...

I think that Rhaenys did... Right, we spent a lot of time talking about this in Chronicling. This Rhaenys did everything possible. Rhaenys' allegiance to Rhaenyra ultimately hinged on the idea that Rhaenyra was willing to exercise restraint. This is the thing that Rhaenys wanted to avoid at all costs. But it's here. And there's no avoiding it anymore. And so she sees Sunfire go down. And it's one-on-one. And even though Vhagar is the biggest and oldest and fiercest beast in the land...

she couldn't turn away. There's no way. Like when she, she burst through the dragon pit in season one and it made no sense and we hated it. We hated it. And she said at the time, this is not my war to start. That did not explain. That explained why she didn't burn the people, the greens. It didn't explain why she killed all the small folks. Still don't understand it. Anyway, she sent herself into this battle.

because the moment had arrived at last and she wanted to do whatever she could to try to end it here and when you have that chance one-on-one I don't think she could live with herself if she left it's

It's also so interesting to think about. We got a ton of emails about this, but interesting to think about the relationship between Maelis and Vhagar. Yes. That Maelis and Vhagar used to fly together because Balon and Alyssa were their riders. Yep. Husband and wife were their riders, right? And then also that Vhagar was Lena's dragon, and so Vhagar, who –

burned Lena, you know, when she asked for it in the midpoint in last season, like Rhaenys' daughter, right? So both Rhaenys and Lena are killed in a way by the same dragon. What is the relationship between the dragons? What kind of memory do they have of their relationship to each other? Yeah.

It seems like no matter what, it's always superseded by the relationship between the dragon and the rider. Yeah. This is why I read this passage on Talk of the Thrones, but I'll read it again because it feels really relevant to this point. This is about a different, this is from a different point in the story, so don't Google this, but it feels very relevant here. Some will claim that the bond between a dragon and dragon rider runs so deep that the beast shares his master's loves and hates. But who was the ally here and who the enemy? Doesn't

Does a riderless dragon know friend from foe? So that I've always loved that passage because of like exactly what you're asking and what our listeners are asking, like, what is the driver? And the driver, it really then like heightens the theme, of course, like the only thing that could tear down the House of the Dragon was itself, which was the opening note for the series. So the fact that the dragons have this history and sometimes a history of affection, of like a union because of their riders, right?

The fact that they would then be in conflict here, it helps to reinforce like what an unnatural thing this is that House Targaryen is doing, how horrible and what a violation, right, of their own lineage this war of succession is. And then when you feel like, well, what would trump that history? What would trump Alyssa and Balon flying together in the skies on Maelys and Vhagar? It's...

the person in that saddle right now. And like, there's something that's kind of harrowing about that, but also something that's amazing about it because it heightens our sense of the magnitude and prominence of that relationship. Absolutely. And I think it's interesting when you're like, okay, what does Amon have against Rainey's? I think you and Mitchell kind of addressed this in our interview, so you might want to, we didn't ask him that question directly, but he kind of

Answers it, which I thought was really – it hadn't occurred to me, that part of their history. But it was interesting to me. I do want to read this last email I think that I have for today from our listener, Michal, who writes, the subject line was dragons, their crowns, dragons, their shrouds, which I loved. Mm-hmm.

And Mikhail writes, Rhaenys doesn't actually die as a result of Aemon and Vhagar enacting direct violence on her body. She's burned to a crisp or chomped in – well, she is, but – or chomped in half or stabbed because her dragon explodes. She's burned to a crisp, not because someone blasted fire at her. Anyway, Rhaenys dies because she is hundreds of feet in the air, bound to the body of the dragon that brought her there. The reason I love this is not because it diffuses responsibility from Aemon, as in the Luke situation. It super doesn't.

But the proximate nature of Rhaenys' death turns an already powerful spectacle and tragedy into a seedingly potent visual metaphor. Dragons always do double duty as beast and emblem in this show. They are both literally and symbolically the source of Targaryen power, the avatar of the dynasty, the reason why this family rules this land in the first place. And as the dragons have carried the Targaryens to, again, literal and symbolic heights, they never could have reached otherwise. So in this battle...

In this war, they become the impossible weight that sends them back to Earth. In her final fall, Rhaenys becomes the physical representation of her family and the dichotomy at the heart of all Targaryen stories. Killer email. Love that. Beautiful. But like...

The idea, it's not just like that I will be thinking about these dragons tangled in the sky when I think about that line, the dragons danced. Yeah. But also, honestly, anytime I look at the Targaryen sigil. Yeah. Yes. Absolutely. You know? Yeah. Absolutely. Yes. We've quoted Stannis, you know, from Game of Thrones asking Shireen, like, well, why the gala dance? It doesn't sound like a dance. This is...

The horror of this, right, in how the name masks and glosses over the violence on display is one of the great passages from Fire and Blood. So we should we should share it here.

The Dance of the Dragons is the flowery name bestowed upon the savage, internecine struggle for the Iron Throne of Westeros fought between two rival branches of House Targaryen during the years 129 to 131 AC. To characterize the dark, turbulent, bloody doings of this period as a dance strikes us as grotesquely inappropriate. No doubt the phrase originated with some singer. The dying of the dragons would be altogether more fitting.

But tradition, time, and Grand Maester Munkin have burned the more poetic usage into the pages of history. So we must dance along with the rest. And, like, the reason that that was on my mind here, I mean, we'll talk in a second about, like, what... George calling himself out. Great stuff. Great stuff. The world, the new world... That Kristen Cole... That Kristen wakes up to. Yes. But also...

You do feel the poetry here, right? It's horrifying and beautiful. And beautiful. And, like, I just thought this episode captured that duality beautifully. And, like, you know, this was the other thing I was talking about that made me sob and lean over into your arms on Talk of Thrones. But, like, I do just want to say it again on this episode.

And it seems like a lot of people really felt this watching it. Like, this was a beautiful way to... Obviously, it's a devastating moment, Rainey's death and Bailey's death. But it is a beautiful way to celebrate...

not only that bond, but what that bond represents, which is like the magic at the heart of a world that you build and we inhabit. And like, this is why, yeah, I know. God, the cold, like the smoke going out in her neck and the way, just her looking back, like her last second of life to look at her rider. Like it was just like so beautiful. And how Rainey felt about bringing her there, bringing Miley there. Yes, there's like that, that,

apology that passes between them, but also, like, the gratitude for the life they shared together. It's just incredible. We're not here yet with Thrones. I love you, by the way. We're not here yet with House of the Dragon in terms of, like, I think this show is as good as Thrones. I think it's still not quite there. But something that I love that it's fulfilling for both of us, my...

manic excitement about witches and your emotion about dragons is exactly this. It's just sort of like the way in which that show sometimes was like, it's almost like a musical that's embarrassed to be a musical, like a fantasy show that was occasionally embarrassing to be a fantasy show. At the end, yeah. At the end especially. Yeah. This, they're just like marinating. They're soaking it. It's a celebration of the thing that brought, some of us at least, not everyone, and that's okay, but some of us, like the thing that,

that led to people finding belonging in that world. It's just really special to see that on screen. I loved it. It was super sad. It was going to be a really painful show to watch, but I just thought that was magical. So I loved it. Kristen wakes up. To a new world. To a new world. Where he's like, oh, I thought I was in charge of this. I thought this was what I wanted. I thought this was what I wanted, and I thought I was in charge of this, but it turns out I am out of my depth.

You know? And just genuine LOL for me hearing Gwaine Hightower lead the Vanguard. Incredible. Kristen's like, what? Into the breach! Into the breach! Really funny. That was really great. So Kristen is confronting not only what

the reality of nuclear war, of dragon war looks like. Yeah. But of the fact that his trap that he laid resulted in something terrible befalling the king. You know, we've talked... So we have talked a lot about

all of the wonderful track the show laid for Amon, however active or passive it is, making the decision that he made. You mentioned the brothel scene. That felt like such a massive thing. Last episode, Condal had a great moment on Inside the Episode where he's like, if there's one rule to take away in House of the Dragon, it's don't laugh at Amon. Bad things happen when we think back to Pink Dread, etc. I was wondering, what will everybody on the ground make of what they saw? Yeah.

what will Kristen make of it? Right? Not just what he finds in the woods when he walks up and is searching for Sunfire and Aegon and finds Aemond with his sword out, but like, people saw, or did they? Can you understand? Is it just the sun's, the ball of fire and sun's in the air? Like, do you think anyone on the ground will understand that Aemond

sent that fireball to Dagon. I don't think so. I think the more important takeaway from this, from all the people who saw Battle at Rook's Rest, the PTSD that they will have is like what it means to fight in a battle with dragons. I mean, people who fought in the Stepstones already sort of saw that, but like, I mean, we saw Caraxie smoosh someone into the mud. Mostly the triarchy was just like hiding in the caves. Yeah.

Until the very end. But, like, as Ryan Condal promised at the start of the season, this idea of, like, more emphasis on the small folk in this season. Yeah. Again, we're watching, we watch these people on the ground get just absolutely smooshed and torched. Yes. By the dance. Vhagar making it through the field. Smooching. Talent smush after talent smush was harrowing. How do you process what Kristen, the scene that he comes upon with Amon, with Sort Out,

making his way toward. I don't know. I think I need to see a little bit more. I mean, like, you and Mitchell will talk about this a bit, so I don't really want to step on that. But, like, I think I need to see a little bit more of how Eamon is going to react next week. One thing we know is that he picked up the dagger of prophecy. He's got the dagger of prophecy. I don't think he'll be using it as a pointer. It looks a little sooty. He might want to polish it. Oh, my God. Did we miss anything? I don't think so. I think we should. Okay.

Should we hear from you, Em? Yeah, let's do it. We have kind of a two-pronged question. One, we have another co-host. He does a House of the Dragon breakdown show with us, and we've been having a passionate debate with him over the last couple weeks because we feel sure that Emond is sort of in a, my mother was mean to me, and now I am in this infantilizing mother's milk scenario that I have crafted for myself situation. Our beloved co-host and colleague,

thinks that you are drinking milk of the poppy and getting high. So one, we would love for you to settle that debate for us that is just like embroiling the Ringer creative team. Milk or milk of the poppy. Milk or milk of the poppy. Yeah, yeah. And then to build off what you were just saying about what those scenes have shown us about Amand,

The vulnerability, the truth, the fact that he is able to admit to Sylvie but no one else, that he feels remorse. If we then play out the string of that, what does it tell us about Aemond? What kind of harbinger is it that when Aegon walks in and shames him,

Eamon feels compelled to stand up and say in front of this one person who he clearly trusts and is comfortable being himself in front of, one horror is as good as any other. Yeah, it's terrible. I think it's Eamon's code in effect in that moment. I love that line from Michael Mann's Heat. Yeah.

That Robert De Niro's character says, he says, you know, never get attached to someone you're not prepared to walk out on in 30 seconds flat when you feel the heat coming around the corner.

And that helps Robert De Niro's character able to maneuver his world without getting caught by the police and Al Pacino. And Amon possesses a very similar code that in part protects him from feeling like a kid, that bullied, neglected kid that he once was. And so that's why he's so easily able to walk out of Madame in that moment, in that moment when Aegon and his crew

you know, catch him in such a vulnerable spot, barely or probably the most vulnerable we'll ever see. And he's humiliated the next moment. And so you see that code come into effect. The switch goes on and he turns around and he proclaims and he, he, he says what he says. And it's, I think that's the thing about England is that he does not care what you think about it. And,

So long as that isn't weak, because weak is not in Eamon's vocabulary. He sees love as weakness. He sees compassion as weakness. And so long as Eamon is seen as this merciless, like I say, unkillable kind of Terminator-like figure, and people are afraid of him, that's all he wants.

he can't be seen as weak at all costs and then milk or milk of the puppy oh I didn't want to answer that I like no I quite like that theory and

Maybe I'll leave it open the air. Okay. The mystery continues. The mystery continues. Fun. Eamon gets to turn the tables on Aegon pretty quickly in episode four. We loved the small council sequence where you were basically humiliating him with your fluency in Valyrian and his terrible Valyrian. And I was wondering...

What you wanted to say about, we talk a lot about these symbols of legitimacy that Aegon has. He has the sword, the crown, the throne, the dagger of prophecy that he just jams in the table if he wants to. What does it mean for Aemon's sort of sign of legitimacy to be this thing that he studied and learned, Valyrian, something that he had to actively pursue, wasn't given to him? Yeah, so that scene in episode four,

It's ultimately public shaming, but Eamon does it in such a way that Aegon is allowed to save face. There's no one else in that room, none of the other council members, they understand what these two kids are saying, but you know what Eamon is saying. And so...

And it's also a statement of, like you say, the hard work that Eamon has put in whilst Aegon was in some sleazy corner in Flea Bottom. I think Eamon, he always felt like Aegon was inferior. And in that moment, he very much puts Aegon in his place. So building off of that idea of how Eamon's

perceives Aegon and has for some time. You know, we can think back to scenes when they were children in season one and how Aemond was just astonished that Aegon couldn't properly value Helena and their inheritance as Targaryen royalty or the way that he spoke pretty openly to Kristen in the penultimate episode of season one about how he believed that he would

So let's talk about what happens at the end of episode four. Take us into Eamon's headspace. Is that, from your perspective, an active trigger?

to take Aegon or try to take Aegon off the board and say, I would be better at this than you. I want you gone. Or is it more passive? You know, we get that little Valerian utterance of idiot when Aegon shows up. Is it more like, listen, if he's too stupid to let me win his war and he's going to be collateral damage, so be it. Active? Passive? What's going through his head?

Yeah, I think that's a great way of summing it all up. I think that moment in season one where Aegon says himself, you know, I'll sail away. Yep. And, you know, I have no wish to rule.

you can see how that might be lucrative to members of the small council because that's someone that you might be able to control. Whereas Eamon, on the other hand, he is who you could argue possesses his own political agenda whose ambitions remain ambiguous or you never really know what

you know, where his true allegiance lies with Aemond. And so that might be a little, little harder to control. And in that moment in, in disguise of both Rook's rest, I don't want to, I don't want to, I don't want to answer all the questions because people will stop asking them, but it is, I think it's, you know, is it, is it, you know, was Aegon the variable in that moment or,

Did he see an opportunity to take two dragons out with one stone? And I think it's a cool conversation and a debate that I want to let the fans enjoy. This is great. You can tell, fan of podcasting. Likes to give us that fodder to fill our weeks. Very generous. Well, can I ask a quick follow-up then? I like that, that you're keeping that ambiguous. How would you characterize...

What's going through your head at the very end when Kristen rolls up on you and you have the dagger and you point towards the body? What do you feel like is going on with Ament there? You know, what Ament does in that sequence is ultimately changed, you know, Westeros forever going forward.

You know, whereas season one, episode 10, it was very much an accident. What happened when Aemond was at the top of Vhagar and killing Luke and Alex in this moment in episode four, it was very intentional. And so there's no going back. And yeah, I can't wait for people to experience the fallout of Rook's Rest next episode.

Can I ask you a quick acting trick question? You mentioned in a preseason interview, you were talking about this trick that James Gandolfini had on The Sopranos where he would put something in his shoe to irritate him, a rock to irritate himself in the scene. And you wouldn't tell the person you were talking to what the item was for fear of spoilers.

So our question to you is, is it the coin that Eamon finds in his room? And how often have you shoved that coin into your boot in a given scene? It was the coin. You are correct. Yes.

But it was, it's something, you know, everything that coin represents. It shows that, you know, Damon got this close to killing Eamon. And that's something that I felt I wanted to live in Eamon's head rent free going forward. And it does, like after a couple of hours, that little stone, it starts to irritate me. You know, it kind of puts your walk off balance.

And so, yeah, I mean, it's super, it also raises the question in that moment, why did Damon hire Burden Cheese? If he wanted the job doing properly, surely he should have just come and done it himself, you know? Maybe he was too afraid. I love that. One last quick question. When we see you playing with the coin at the small council scene, like anytime we see that coin, is that a you acting choice?

But, you know, were you like, hey, can I keep this coin with me as a sort of character moment for Amon to reference? It was. It was a choice that I presented to the writer. And whilst we were, the day before shooting that scene, I just said to David Hancock,

of that episode, I was like, it would be because, because you never truly know what's going on behind Eamon's eye. I thought maybe there was an opportunity to show, you know, what some, you know, this kind of process, you know, externally what's happening. And so I thought there was something interesting in rolling a coin in that scene.

And then when, you know, whilst Cole and Eamon are very much, you know, the plan that they've been curating finally just comes to fruition that they're, you know, manufacturing around this council table.

the variable being that Cole says, "Vhagar will remain here," and that's not part of our plan. And so that coin roll, it stops just momentarily, but just to show, just to give that to the audience and say, you know, that's not part of the plan, and then

And then when that coin starts rolling again, it gives the sense that, okay, a new plan is taking hold here. And then just from that idea that I had, David Hancock and Ryan Condor, they expanded it and they, you know, they created this idea that actually it will be one of the coins that is left in Eamon's bedchamber when Blood and Sheeds, you know, sneak in. Yeah.

That's incredible. We love thinking about the different motivations and factors that drive Amon's and obviously Damon and that coin. It's a big one. You know, this idea of Amon's and Damon as as foils, as mirrors, this idea for Amon's that that Damon would think he was like a worthy foe, the way that that would embolden and drive him.

And another core motivation for Amon, obviously, is like the literal wound and the emotional wounds of childhood, right? The pink dread prank, Luke slicing out his eye. And so one of the things we were curious to ask you about is like, given both for your character, how foundational that is,

those childhood traumas are, but also more broadly, and this has been a huge theme of the season so far, this idea of cycles and what we pass down and what we inherit and what carries forward and whether we can identify where anything started or whether it's too late. That sequence on Driftmark is so foundational. And of course, it was a different cast. So how have you connected to that aspect of Eamon's backstory, given that those weren't scenes that you performed?

it was always something, Leo Ashburn's performance was always something that I carried around with me, especially in season two, just remembering that, that vulnerable, uh, you know, bullied kid and how that kind of informed his, his future years. Um,

You know, it's like you were saying, that eye, I call it the eye for an eye scene, or the scene in episode seven when Eamon is being, you know, mended by the Meisters, you know, the damage that's been, you know, irreversibly done to his face and his eye. It was, it's a scene that I...

A lot of adults in the room held their silence that day, one of which was Rainies, one of which was the sea snake. And it was only very much Alison that was backing him in his corner, whilst Rhaenyra was trying to steer the conversation away where Eamon had discovered this illegitimate slur strong from.

Alison kept on bringing it home and said, look, this kid has been damaged for life. It goes back to that thing of, you know, a kid who doesn't have that many, you know, voices around him that support him. You know, the fact that he didn't get that much, you know, love from his mum, he doesn't really know how to show it. You know, if a kid doesn't...

experience that unconditional love, they find it difficult to develop a balanced view of themselves. And if a child isn't embraced by the village, they'll burn it down to feel its warmth. And so Eamon holds a lot of the voiceless in that room that day accountable. And so instead he will seek validation and ultimately

you know, attention through all the means, through war, you know, and by his name, large enough for the whole world to see. Amen. He's got it, you know, he holds a grudge. Oh man, that's beautiful. I'm not sure he forgives either, to be honest with you. Um, uh,

On that very same episode, you know, he's been neglected or rejected by his own family, but he has this huge moment where he's accepted by Vhagar. Vhagar chooses him, sees something in him that she thinks is worthy. But my question is, how much is who Aemon then becomes shaped by Vhagar?

that idea of living up to having Vhagar as his mount. Yeah, something that I never comprehended before. I actually watched that sequence in episode seven when Aemond claims Vhagar was that Aemond is the kid who held on when he recognized from a very early age that he wouldn't get a dragon egg like the rest of the kids in the family, that he would in fact be different. He held on once

when he was bullied for being different relentlessly day in, day out, he held on. Then when Vhagar took off over the beaches of Driftmark in episode seven, you know, he held on and he held on tighter than ever before. And it's that story of, you know, persistence, the idea that you need to know what it's like down here so you'll fight even more for what's up there. Maybe that's what Vhagar saw in him. Maybe...

Maybe she saw someone who was bold enough to, you know, to stare adversity in the face. And I mean, ultimately what he does is a tremendous feat of courage. And it's certainly one of the redeemable aspects of Eamon. And maybe, you know, maybe she saw something that he himself hasn't seen yet. Yeah.

I think it's, I love the whole, you know, Ryder and Dragonbund and, you know, how they're almost extensions of each other. I don't want to geek you out too much. It's impossible. You're well at home here. Impossible. We love it.

This is a podcast where we routinely quote passages at length from all of the texts and then talk about magical creatures for hours on end. And it was one of the other things we wanted to ask you because we are lovers of magical creatures and also the magical creatures in our own homes, our cats. You are a dog lover. It's a conversation here between animal enthusiasts and magical creature enthusiasts. So we would be remiss if we did not ask you about that bond, the bond between a man and his whippets and how...

Your experience as the fabled rider of Vhagar has unlocked something new for you in what you see in your pups.

Yes, I see my eldest with it, Bella, more and more like Vhagar closest. Like every day I'm just like, oh my God, she's Vhagar. She's just so lumbosome and so old. You don't want to get on the wrong side of her. Don't get in her personal space. But at the same time, like, you know, through all that aloofness, she's a cuddly hug. Vhagar, cuddly hug. Vhagar, cuddly hug. Okay. It's canon. I like it. I like it a lot. Yeah.

It takes a lot of people, but if you get all of the people of King's Landing in as a collective, they all hook very well. Beautiful. We could end the war right now. It sounds like it. Yeah, we found our path to peace. I love it. Okay. Anything else you want to ask? I have one more question if we have time.

Team Green. Yeah. Make the case. Why should we be, why should anyone be Team Green? Yeah. If you can. Yeah. Make the case if you dare. If you dare. Oh my God. There's good and bad on both sides, right? Uh-huh. Yeah. Yeah. There's monsters on both sides. Um,

we're way more rock and roll that's true yeah I think it goes back I hate to bring it back here but it goes back to the Ivor and I scene when a lot of their sides they all held their silence and that's

You know, that's what could have been resolved with simple words of apology. They very much allowed it. Like I say, Eamon forgives, but he does not forget. Okay. Excellent. Well, thank you for the chat. We really appreciate it. Thank you so much. This was a blast. Thank you so much. What a wonderful chat with you and Mitchell. Eamon Wanai himself keeps a coin in his shoe.

Incredible. Will you be doing that moving forward? I already am. But for you, it's a tab from a LaCroix can. Correct. No free ads. Okay. It is time now for the book look ahead. If you don't want to hear about anything that's yet to come in the text, this is where we leave you. We hope you enjoyed your many, many, many hours of the podcast today. All right. This is a relatively quick, quick one today. Cool. Quick one.

Let's see. What should we hit? Oscar Tully is here. We got a Benjikot mention. You can't really hear it, but if you have the subtitles on. Our beloved Bloody Ben is mentioned by Willem. Make way for the lads. I am so hyped for this. I just simply can't wait. You love to watch boys killing each other. You're like, give me some. I just love Bloody Ben. The Hulls.

Okay, Adam and Alan. Yeah. Do you think that this, like, your mother must have been very beautiful? Does this mean we're just never getting Mouse? Never getting Marilda in the show? I don't think so. Yeah, this was it. I don't think there's a lot of room for her. But I do think this whole, like, Rainey saying he should be raised up and honored. Yeah. Is Corlys' whole, because what happens next is Corlys, after he blames Rhaenyra for Rhaenys' death and all this sort of stuff like that, is like, can you please legitimize Corlys?

my sons. And so the fact that that's sort of like Rainnise's dying like wish, it's not really, but like sort of, I think that's beautiful. Me too. I really love that he's, because there's a way to read it in the book where it's like, did you just wait for, okay, like my wife's dead, so now I can like. Right, no. This is like, this is what she wanted. Alan's going to be my heir. Yeah, great stuff. Fuck you, Raina. Hold that part, stop. Hold that part, stop. Eat dirt job. Play literally well, that's sad. Okay. Oh,

Tough one. All right, the Butcher's Ball. My most anticipated event of... It's just like... Just huge props. The Butcher's Ball, a battle where Chris and Cole will die. Yeah.

Yeah. Yours will come in kind. Yours will come in kind. It made me think of Pete saying, I'll have no songs about how brave you died, Kingmaker, declared Longleaf. There's tens of thousands dead on your account. He was speaking to a corpse, which is just like one of the best passages in the book. This like, yours will come in kind really felt like a little like, butcher's ball, stay tuned. I know. I still have some questions though about like,

Again, I kind of like how lame Chris and Cole's death is. Yeah. And I'm worried they're going to like Ollie shooting Ygritte up, you know, where Ygritte gets hit by a random arrow. And I kind of love that about it. Yeah. And they're like, no, we have to make it that it was Ollie who did it. So like, are they going to make Chris and Cole's death like...

that much more spectacular. And I just kind of like that it's lame and stupid and sad. Yeah. You know? Yeah. Yeah. Well, I'll just be thinking about his death for the next few years. Don't mind me. Eamon! One eye! Oh, man. This is, there's a lot here. Like, we definitely zoom in and linger on Eamon's face when Lyras is talking about how Harrenhal is going to drive Damon mad.

So, Eamon's going to go to Harrenhal. Now I'm wondering what experience he's going to have, though, and if it's different from the one that we were expecting. If you Google the fan art of Alice Rivers, you'll probably find her entwined with Eamon because they become lovers. So, I didn't want that to be a spoiler for people. Alice becomes pregnant. Yes. Is that actually going to be Eamon's baby? She, like, touches her... She puts her hand over her womb at one point in the scene with Damon when...

she's talking about... Oh, it's something about legacy. Like the air, right? It's something about legacy. To make your own claim. To make your own claim. Yeah. There's a shot of Damon in the trailer choking a blonde woman in bed. The conventional, and it is not Rhaenyra, the conventional wisdom among people is that this is Emma, Viserys's wife, right?

And Damon is having a dream about, like, a sex dream about Emma and Harrenhal. Yeah. This is the most popular theory about this. Because people think this is a thing that happened? No, just like a fantasy. This has been a theory since before the season started, and it was before I knew that, just based on trailer analysis, because you can, like, barely see sort of her face. It's not Emma Darcy. That is true. Yeah.

It was before I knew that, like, Millie Alcock and I regret I can't remember the actress who plays Lena. Like, before I knew these, like, season one actors were coming back for season two. Yeah. So I was like, what do you mean? Why would Emma be in this? But, like, is it going to be that? Or the other theory I have, which I quite like.

is it going to be a sex dream about Rhaenyra and she turns into Alice, like a blonde Alice? Because again, it's not Emma's face, but it could be Gale Rankin's face in a blonde wig. But is Alice going to dream entice him into having sex with her? Or Damon might just have sex with her. He certainly could. Is her baby going to be potentially Damon or potentially Amon's baby?

And does that just, like, sort of draw them all closer together? You know? I don't know. I just genuinely can't wait to find out. Which stuff? Which stuff? One thing I am wondering is, like, in Fire and Blood, Aemond seeking to challenge Daemon and take Harrenhal from him and then arriving with his host and finding that Daemon has already left and that he and Rhaenyra have taken King's Landing is, like, mortifying for Aemond, right? It's just one of his... It's, like, the big whiff. And...

I'm trying to figure out how the show is going to set up that kind of mistake from him. Because he's not a character who's making mistakes. I just really hope that we get... Okay. But I like that Damon would be his Achilles heel in that respect. I might be slightly back on...

Rhaenyra taking King's Landing corner for the end of the season. Yeah. Gullet season three. Yes, Gullet I've moved on from. It's season three. Gullet season three, Rhaenyra. So the idea of if we get an echo of Daemon going through the halls in his armor to find just Simon Strong at the table and Aemon has like a similar like going through the empty halls and he's like, where the fuck is everyone? You know? And then Alice is like, oh, hello. Oh.

The boy child you burned in the sky. I can't do a Scottish accent. I apologize. The girl child. Oh, and like I can. Okay. You can, actually. I mean, I think you can, but I'm sure that's all. It's also like, I'm sure that's not true. Which is to me, it sounds like you can. It's basically like Mrs. Doubtfire is what I can do. Stonehenge. Yeah. So...

This is like part of what makes the Burning Mill stretch in the book like slightly, slightly beefier. It's just that Damon takes the Bracken seat while Burning Mill is unfolding. So in the trailer for next week. It has a burn. It has a burn. It's like, can we see the Bracken sigils? Is he doing this because Will Blackwood was like,

Go make the Brackens pay and then I'll follow you. Yeah. Yeah. So he's going, he still is going to take their seat or at least burn some of them in the field. Or is that going to be combined with, my question is that, is that going to be combined somehow with the fish feed?

Because we know that Jason Lannister is on the march. And the fish feed is this battle where the Lannister... I'm starting to feel like fish feed might be like a big, like episode seven. Exactly. So they combine a lot of this Riverland plot. Because the problem with the fish feed, because we know there's one more battle coming. And the problem with it being fish feed is there's literally no one there that we care about. This is why I've been like, how could this be? What if they add Damon... Yeah.

You know, and if there's like, I don't know who else could be there. But if they add other people, Gawain Hightower, I don't know, other people that we care about at the Fish Feed, then it's a much bigger battle. I like it. Willem Blackwood. Our beloved Willem. Yeah, our favorite. He's got to die so the Pentagon can rise. Stefan and the Soul. Okay, so Stefan Darklin.

We'll try to claim a dragon. It will not go well. And it will not go well. And this like just real moment where you understand his personal. He's obviously like a loyal member of the Queen's Guard. And he stood there and watched Daemon threaten him with Caraxes in season one and still stayed true. It's not like he's done nothing to show like he's in the fight. He went with F-fucking Rhaenyra to King's Landing. No time for games, Devin. This is going to be painful. Painful. The riot.

Yeah, Massaria, this idea that, okay, so we think from the trailer because. This is, yeah, not even really a book. This is just like trailer. Trailer stuff. There seems to be like a small folk riot. Yeah. Is this something Massaria is going to orchestrate? Because there's a trailer line about there's more than one way to win a war. So is Massaria going to send a Linda or someone else? Because we've seen a Linda. Is a Linda like off to rabble rouse in King's Landing? I don't know. But it's not a bad idea.

I don't know what else you could mean by there's more than one way to fight a war. Yeah. Win a war. Interesting. I'm intrigued. The budget. You mentioned this a couple times. The coffers are empty. Yeah.

There is, in the season ahead trailer, it does seem to show that Tylan will be sent to parlay with the triarchy because there's this scene that I've only recently understood of him being like dragged through the mud. He's like, it's definitely Jefferson Hall. Is it Jason or Tylan? I think it's Tylan. And it's, he's surrounded by piratey looking people. So does Tylan go to parlay with the triarchy to try to get some money? Yeah.

for what they need. Well, do you think, do you think I thought it was going to be Otto? Yeah, do you think the Otto triarchy plot is still going to happen? I don't know. I miss Otto. I do too. I'd like him to return. And what has Kristen Cole done? I mean, we could have used that line in this episode. Boy, look what you did, Kristen. Gollet. Gollet.

You like the experience. Jace's hot-temperedness. He's like, let me go, let me go, let me go, let me go. No, no, no. Nothing will keep him from mounting Vermax to fly. Yeah. He's been told so many times, you can't go. Vermax on the trailer for next week, though. I know. At the Twins. Thrilling. I know. Absolutely thrilling. So, okay. Here's my question. Like,

Aegon's not dead, we should say. We sidestepped it in the non-spoiler, but he's not dead. He's just very badly burned. Grievously wounded. His armor is just melted into his body. I'm slightly ashamed of myself, but in the scenes for next week, I did chuckle a little bit seeing the crate that they're bringing his kid. Smuggling him back in. Oh my god. So funny. Okay, so here's my question.

will he remember what Eamon did to him? He's just a fucking milk of the poppy addict for the rest of his life. Yeah, like, is he going to be so addled between the pain, the milk of the poppy, the strong wine, that, like, he's just, like, kind of not in control of his faculties and maybe it's, like, maybe he literally doesn't remember, right? Yeah. Maybe he just isn't, I don't know. But,

I kind of like the idea that he will remember and never tells anyone because he's so ashamed. Because that idea of music. But it feels like at some point he's going to let Eamon know that he knows or something like that. This is my question. Will it be something they discuss even though Egon never tells anybody else? Because he could not possibly abide anybody knowing that his brother did that to him. That's why I didn't make it into the histories. We did it. Good show. Supersize episode.

We had an interview. A lot of witch stuff. A lot of witch stuff. Dragons. Dragon battle. Wept again. You cried again. A little less this time, but like, I'm very moved by this. Very moved by it. Can't believe we're halfway through the season. I know. Don't want it to be over, but we have half a season left. Let's look at it that way. Dragon egg mug half full. Love that. Three in, and this one's almost empty, but I like the spirit of the point. Yeah.

Oh, boy. Okay. Anything else that we're missing, forgetting? No? We did it? Okay. We've come to the face of tortured rest. That is a wrap at last. Thank you to our small council, Steve Ullman and John Richter, for producing this episode. Arjuna Ramgopal for his additional production work on this episode and Jomia Deneron for his work on the social for this episode. We will see you on Thursday for Echoes.

Episode 7. Penultimate acolyte. Can't believe it. God, that season melted away. Fast. Where's the time gone? And then we will be back on Sunday night, immediately, after Hot D episode 5 for Talk the Thrones with Chris Ryan. Until then, remember, we believe it is a sin to deny your appetites. And that is why we did a four-hour podcast today. Embrace the paleness.