'House of the Dragon' Season 2, Episode 5 Deep Dive. Plus: Steve Toussaint! | House of R
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Those who married into other noble houses. Their children born with other names. A generation ago or more, the blood would be thin. And yet? A dragon will only accept a dragon lord to ride it. Also say the histories. Valyrian histories written to gild us in glory. Are you suggesting we put a malice on a dragon? A Tarly? It's better than death and defeat. There are records here, surely, of our line and of those who fell out of it. There could be scores of them.

Greetings, and welcome to House of R, a Ringerverse podcast on the Ringer Podcast Network. I'm Mallory Rubin, and it is my absolute pleasure to invite you not only back to the Dragonstone Library, Scrolls Abound, but also back into the House of R. Joining me today, asking, has my loyalty faded or does it flourish only at night and flee the sunrise like a moth? It's Joanna Robinson, consort.

Hello! Jo! What a thrill and a joy! Hello. We're back again. We are. We are here to dive deep into House of the Dragon, Season 2, Episode 5, and our terms are simple for today's podcast. Renounce the false king, Aegon, as usurper, and ban the need-us, or your house burns. Those are the rules. Or your house of all burns.

While you are thinking about your answer to that prompt, we will issue some very quick programming reminders. Here they are. It is a loaded week over on the Ringerverse. The Midnight Boys. Pew, pew. Streaming live on YouTube after the Acolyte finale. By the time this podcast goes up, that probably will have already happened, but great news. That episode's still available for you to check out. Ooh, exciting. Wednesday, button mash. EA Sports College Football 25. This is like a high holy day. My most anticipated.

Of 2024. Maybe we'll play this weekend. Sure. I actually genuinely can't wait. And then the Midnight Boys are back on Thursday for another finale, Boys on the Boys. Great stuff. Here on the House of R, we will be with you as well on Thursday because we will be covering the Acolyte finale. And then we will be back on Sunday night immediately after

House of the Dragon episode six with Chris Ryan for Talk the Thrones. You can find full video episodes of House of R, Talk the Thrones, and Midnight Boys on the new-ish Ringerverse YouTube channel. So subscribe if you haven't. You can watch the videos on Spotify and you can listen to us wherever you get your podcasts. By the way. There was a small glitch last week that Acolyte didn't go up, but that was just because of a one-time thing. Yes. We will be back on video for that.

this week. Also, if you're listening to this Wednesday morning, you're like, I'm looking for something to do tonight. Come hang out with us at the LRA because Ringerverse Live will be happening 8 p.m. doors at 7. Grab your tickets while you still can. Joanna, how can the people follow along?

Listen, I'm so glad you asked me. First of all, why don't you just follow us on social? Yeah, do it. Do it. Follow The Ringerverse on Instagram, on TikTok, on Twitter. I redownloaded TikTok onto my phone. Oh. It's a backslide for me, but here we are. Okay. I support you. You can also just subscribe to the pod. Our pod, House of R. Yeah. The Ringerverse. Great stuff. Yes. Also, hobbitsanddragons at gmail.com. Keep the emails coming. We got so many emails. Yeah.

This week. Multiple and so many others in the dock today. Yes, yes, yes, yes. Oh, oh, the cause, the cause. There you go. Hit the hand. You're right. It is the left hand. Yeah. It is the left hand. Okay. Noted. Joe, our last programming reminder. It's always the friendly neighborhood spoiler warning. Here it is. We will, of course, be talking about every single thing that happened in this episode of House of the Dragon. If it's ever happened in House of the Dragon, season one or season two, it could come up today. If it's ever happened in Game of Thrones, it could come up today. Book canon, Fire and Blood, Song of Ice and Fire.

We will be chatting about that throughout the pod today for context, insights. But if it's happening in the future of the book, anything that's yet to come in the show, be saving that for a separate little book spoiler section at the end of the pod, as we always do. You will get a spoiler warning right before that segment begins. And today, that will come after an interview because...

The sea snake, Corliss, himself is joining us. We had the pleasure of chatting with Steve Toussaint, and that is going to be right before the spoiler section. Delightful. So everybody hang out for the interview. We had a blast. Genuinely had a blast. Did Mallory say exactly on brand? She did. And did it delight him? It did. So please tune in for that. Oh, what fun we have. Okay, Jo. We have given the word to the dragons. A dragon rider should lead us. So let's pod.

Episode five, Regent. We were like, what is the title of this episode going to be? We had no idea we were speculating. Regent, directed again by Claire Kilner, who previously had directed episodes four, five, and nine of the first season, and the second episode of this season in for both of the processions.

through King's Landing. Yes. On the procession beat. This was written by T. Mickle. And this episode checked in at 63 minutes. And do you feel compelled to quickly note, no additions to the opening credits. This is one of the things we're tracking. Yeah, work's for us. Did not make the opening credits cut. We await your arrival. Dismaying. Dismaying. Maybe it's just on delay.

I mean, blood and cheese is on a bit of a delay as well. Yeah. I'm not giving up hope yet. Okay. This is not a sentence, but an honor. It is time for the opening snapshot. Joanna. Yeah. Give me your quick impressions. Well, table setter, what did you think?

Of this fifth episode. I am going to keep this snappy because this will be a multi-hour podcast, I promise. It will? Yeah. But, well, a couple things really quickly. Regent, as everyone on who's been interviewed about this episode has said...

It pertains to Eamon, but of course it pertains to so many other people on the show. There's so many people who are sort of temporarily taking over for other people on the show. So I think it's a really interesting title, title, title. Titles, titles. This was my least favorite episode of the season, like, pretty easily. I still liked a lot of it, but it's not for the reason that some people are saying, like, oh, it was...

Filler, it's not a filler episode. Filler episodes really only exist in anime. It's not...

We're getting, we're getting careful. Big stuff happens in this episode. Absolutely. Aemon Targaryen is now the most powerful person in Westeros. Yeah. That was not true last week. Alison Hightower has no power. That was not true when she woke up this morning. We got a lot of key updates on the state of Citrus in the capital. Oh, yeah. And that's predominantly that. Anyway, people talking in rooms, all that sort of stuff, you know I'm like usually really down for that. I just felt some of the writing this episode felt a little like

like, obvious to me. It felt like some of the themes that we've been covering were just sort of overtly stated over and over again in a way that flattened them for me, like, um...

I would say particularly this question of the patriarchy, something that you and I have been obviously interested in, is the text of the show, is why Rhaenyra is not on the throne for so many reasons. There's a bunch, several scenes where it's just so overtly stated that it then becomes too dimensional to me and not, you know, not the depth that I'm looking for and I know the show is capable of. So there's just like a few examples of that and other themes that I felt like they just said the thing rather than... And other things were just said like...

Us getting a moment where they say, oh, remember that time that Reyna tried to claim a dragon and she almost died? And I'm just sort of like, what? You just said it? Yeah. Like, that's a big deal. We never got to see it. And you just said it in a sentence and moved on like it was nothing. So there were just moments like that that felt a little bumpy to me. But there are some incredible performances as always. And yeah.

The witches are here, so how could I ever be upset? You know? They are. And also we got to watch them peel Valerian steel armor off of Aegon over many minutes. Looking forward to talking about that scene, genuinely. Which egg comp are you going for? Are you going for the fried egg joke, the soft-boiled egg joke, the hard-boiled egg joke? I don't think it can be a hard-boiled egg. There's a little too much ooze. I think it's a classic brunch soft-boiled egg. Oh my god.

Sorry. Vile. Truly vile. Is it lunchtime yet? I'm not hungry. Since 11thies? I'm the opposite of hungry. 11thies? Second breakfast? Thinking about peeling bits of armor like egg off of our king. Even with the cabbage leaf brought in? Was it a cabbage leaf? Couldn't tell you. Someone said it was like a fish skin. I don't know. Whatever it was, I didn't like it. A fish skin? Yeah. Interesting. I'll have to go back and look for scales. That would be an impressive stack.

It was like the skin of a fish. And well-flatted. Yeah, that would just be one more tough beat for the Tullys in this season. Anyway, this was also my least favorite episode of the season, but I still really enjoyed it. And I do like the...

ebbs and flows of activity. Like, I was ready, I think, after Rook's Rest for a little bit of a beat. I don't mind generally, like, an episode where the characters are moving around the board, right? That is valuable, and I certainly am always here for the great conversations in elegant rooms. I think that your point about the

of some of the exchanges is something that I felt as well. But certainly we have a lot to chew on here, cabbage leaf or otherwise, with our characters and the things that they share with each other and what they're working through and the parallels across the camps continues to be a very scintillating thing to watch. So we have a lot to break down. This episode had a lot of scenes in it. Yeah. So we're just going to get right to it. We are going to head for the deep dive into...

In the bowels of a pleasure den. Otto. Boy. We miss you. Yeah. We are missing Otto. Yeah. Feeling that.

While I got a real kick out of Aegon rasping for breath in his deathbed. Mummy. Mummy. Mummy. We, I think, missed a little of the Aegon on the front lines energy in this episode, too. For sure. Right? So, yeah. I wonder when Otto will be back. I know. Too many weeks without him. I don't know. Yeah. I'll bring it up again in the book section. Oh, you got some theories. Okay. I'm excited. I will stay tuned.

And check back with you in three hours. You have no choice. You're locked into this room with me. There's nowhere else I'd rather be than in this 62. Actually, I mean, listen, today, 64 to 66 degree room.

Not at 62 again. That's fine. Why is Joanna drinking hot coffee in the summer? It's because Mallory keeps the studio refrigerator cold. I'm going to wear shorts and slides next recording so that I'm ready for the sauna that we record in. Okay, Jo. The episode begins with this hush.

These scenes of mourning. We see Rhaenyra on Dragonstone, Corlys on Driftmark. It is somber. It is quiet and very lonely. We're tracking this isolation across our character sets and across the episodes. Very lonely, grief-imbued start to the episode. It's like the hush of death following the roar of dragon war. It felt like a very appropriate somber note to begin this episode on. And we spend...

A couple really poignant minutes early with Corlys, this portrait of grief, watching him make his way to the Driftwood Throne, a tear rolling down his cheek. And you can just feel the way that that, yes, they're together for a couple council moments, but that last real conversation with Rhaenys about Alan.

in addition to just the fact that he has lost his wife, is hanging over him. What did you think of the fact that we saw him on that drift with Throne, the way that we associate

throne, seats of power, proximity to power with Corlys's journey and that portrait of grief in that space. He could have been anywhere, but that's where he chose to be. Right, where it was just, it felt empty to him. He calls it a tomb later. And, you know, we'll talk to Steve about all of this. And he had some just great things to say about what's going on in Corlys's mind here. So I'll let him take it away from there. But I do think that's

You know, they mentioned that they basically, like, brought the set back for this scene. They couldn't rebuild the whole thing. They had to, like, blue screen it, you know, so they only half built it for the scene. So it was really important to him that he was having this moment here and not on the docks where he's been, like, all season, you know? And I just, yeah. Needed a barnacle break? Yeah.

Don't we all, first of all. Plus, you know, if you're not going to get some like hot broth of bread lovingly delivered to you, what's the point of even being on the docks anymore? Not just any bread, warm bread. Yeah. Sheesh. I know. The good old picnic days, how long ago they were. I was thinking a lot in that moment of...

all of the conversations that Rhaenys and Corlys shared, specifically about where this, like, striving pursuit, this seemingly ceaseless pursuit of power, which, of course, does cease at a certain point when Corlys returns from his six years away. Blood fever. Hate to see it. He does reach that moment where he says, like, I am content. And then Rhaenys is the one who says, it's time to sign up and be a part of what Rhaenyra is doing and join Team Black. But I was thinking so much about, like,

that moment in episode five of the first season where she says Rhaenyra's succession will be challenged, knives will come out for her, her husband, and for their heirs, and the number of people in House Velaryon who have been impacted by that directly in some way and how Corlys is going to carry that grief with him. We'll talk more about his conversation with Bela later, and obviously, like you said, we had the pleasure of chatting with Steve about the impact this has had on his character. It was an effective tone to set at the beginning of the episode. Absolutely. Jo, I'd like you to join me in King's Landing.

You know, it's been a summer of confounding box office news. Yeah. Sequels can be tough. Sure. And King's Landing Death Procession Part 2. You're not getting your twisters taken? It landed with a thud. They needed Glenn Powell here. Kristen needed Glenn Powell. Where was Daisy Edgar Jones when you needed her? So we see before we get to see this procession how the blockade is impacting the small folk, right? The fruit. Rotten.

Petrified orange. Brutal. Yeah, I should say, I've heard a lot of criticism of Team Black and how they're doing nothing in the war effort. The blockade is tremendously effective, and that's been something they've been doing this whole time. Yes. That is their move. They have blocked the harbor for trade, and you're forced to eat rotting fruit if you're a member of...

The small folk. Our listener Courtney was asking about the blockade. Aren't ships incredibly flammable? Why hasn't Vhagar burned it yet? This is what Rhaenys was constantly guarding when she was constantly patrolling the blockade. And the idea is the blockade is quite near Dragonstone. So it's almost like a...

Like a reverse Rook's Rest scenario, where if you bring your dragon, be it Vhagar or Dreamfire, who we haven't seen since season one, or Sunfire, who is long in the dying. Long in the dying. Long in the dying. My sweet Sunfire. If you bring your team green dragon over to the blockade, you're within spitting distance of Dragonstone, where they've got several dragons ready to roast you. So you don't want to bring your dragon out there to the blockade. I believe that's why it's not been...

Daenerys yet. Painful association still when you mention Daenerys, dragons, and fleets anywhere in proximity to each other. Jeez. We know also from this episode that Vhagar is resting like some little R&R after the battle. Established canon for Maelys and Rhaenys, right? Maelys must gorge and rest and so must I. So obviously until Rhaenys died, Rhaenys was patrolling. Presumably now there's

There's no patrol of the gullet, at least for a short little period here. And so there would be a window, but Vhagar is down in those Gatorade gels. Tuckered out. Trying to replenish the electrolytes. I feel like Rhaenyra is like two seconds away from being like, Bela, new job.

Not my coddled princeling, but you, Bela, please get on the front lines and patrol the gullet. It seems totally in play. Totally in play. So a horn sounds back in King's Landing and a herald arrives. And here's what this herald, this piece of shit, this monster, this blight on society says. As Kristen's army parades its prize. Maile's his head, still smoking, swarming with flies.

behold, the traitor dragon Maelys, slain at Rook's Rest by your king. So the PR machine. Traitor dragon. For Aegon. Oh, look what Aegon did. But the traitor dragon. So there was a part of me actually that was like, yeah, let's acknowledge that the dragons have agency. You know? If I'm being honest, there was a part of me that kind of liked that idea. But this is foul. This is foul. Character assassination for Maelys here.

We get this kind of hush that falls over the crowd. Yeah. Described in Fire and Blood as well. Yeah, we were primed for this. In Fire and Blood it says, Oh, was it Alicent's idea to lock the gates? Classic.

fucking unreliable male narrators of history. Just like, look what Allison did. Eustace. How dare you. So we got this email from Dan and actually a few people. And I think this is an excellent point. Yeah. We have been wondering since it happened last season, since Rainey's burst through the floor and stomped on a bunch of people with Maylee's,

At the coronation for King Aegon last season, the usurper. Sorry, I just wanted to make my team affiliations known. Murdering hundreds, if not perhaps thousands of people as she stomped to the floor. Legions. And to quote one of the writers of the show, I don't need to call out names, to quote one of the writers of the show, it was my idea, I just thought it would look cool.

Great stuff. They haven't really, they have not really addressed it except a little bit in episode one of this season. And you would think that perhaps as they were carting the head of that dragon through the streets, the PR spin was like,

Behold the dragon that stomped all of you people. We have taken her down or something like that. But Otto wasn't here to do any of the messaging. So we didn't get that. But Dan, our listener, points out that in the behind the scenes, Ryan Condal does not bring up

thing that the dragon Maelys did last season and its writer Rhaenys did last season he says quote Maelys was a beloved dragon that probably flew over the city hundreds of times and

He gestures towards what people have been taught about Targaryen exceptionalism slash invincibility. However, it seems pretty odd for that elephant in the room to not even merit a mention here when it involves this very same dragon would have occurred mere months before. I mean, what are months and weeks to this timeline? Who knows? Unless, of course, they've realized how awkward and ill-fitting of an addition to the story that incident was, and they just want to move on and forget about it. Truly bizarre choice.

Incredibly odd. Very bizarre. Yeah, this is a great point. On the one hand, I would be inclined to say that, yeah, there's maybe a concerted effort to pretend that this didn't happen. They acknowledge that it was a mistake. There's a desire to just like push for some collective amnesia and we can all move on from one of the truly like

misguided decisions in season one. But it came up pretty often last week in the press around that episode. Yeah.

So that makes it a little harder to, I think, say that they're just like, this is not a thing that Rhaenys and Maelys did. Right, they were saying like, oh, it was some of her, the reason she really dedicated herself to Rhaenys' rest was regret over what happened at the coronation. Odd stuff. I'm happy to pretend that Maelys never exploded through the pit of the floor of the dragon pit. Sure, we kind of forgot about Maelys doing that. That is fine. I would be glad to kind of forget. I just think it's odd for Condal to go so far as to say Maelys was a beloved dragon that probably flew over the city hundreds of times. Like,

A beloved dragon that killed many of these people's aunts and uncles and cousins and fathers and, you know, daughters and stuff like that. So moving on. We can move on. It's a great email from Dan and the many others who sent it. Yeah. So this procession, it did not go the way that Kristen was intending. He voices this in real time. He's like, don't they know we won? Gawain helpfully is there to say, strange victory.

If it was won, right? And this is a question and will be throughout. Like what can really count as victory? We're going to talk in this next stretch here about the implications of what it, of Kristen showing the masses, right?

Oh, yeah, yeah. That the strength and might and status of House Targaryen can be torn down in this way. But because we had the little baseball head procession, because we had Jaehaerys' funeral in the second episode and saw the almost like

ravenous response of the people. It's like a fanatic, yeah. This was, I thought, a very effective counterweight to that. You couldn't escape your notice that this was being received in a radically different way. And we talked about this at the time, about this danger that Otto was really playing with fire in terms of sort of trying to manipulate and use the crowd sentiment for their benefit, but when the crowd turns on you...

It turns on you. And this was just not the... I mean, I don't think Otto would have ever stationed this, but this was just... I do wish that he just could pop up at the end of the episode and give his notes. And what has Kristen done now? So the response feels like a couple things are going on in the heads, hearts, minds of the small folk of King's Landing here. Part of it is, as we hear...

the dragons standing as gods. We get the great moment with the kid who's standing next to Hugh who says, please do this in your accent. I thought the dragons was gods. Wonderful stuff. I thought the dragons were...

was gods we hear a a random member of king's landing say it can't be they killed a dragon we hear another person saying mark my words this is a black omen so this idea and this feels like the part of this like just really massive blunder for kristen and not playing out the string on what you were putting in front of people and then what they will take from it and how that will impact something beyond just the moment in time that you're currently inhabiting in the dance

This is the old, like, that's the problem, minister. The other side can do magic too. When it's Targaryen versus Targaryen, when it's dragon versus dragon, if you are trying to diminish the other side by making them seem mortal, fallible, killable, definitionally, you are undermining your own side's strength. The entire Targaryen narrative.

The entire, Aegon's entire, this is why I deserve to rule this entire continent, is because we've got dragons. Do you have dragons? We've got dragons. And this idea that, like, Targaryen exceptionalism, Targaryens are closer to gods than men, all of this hinges on...

they've got dragons. The dragons are named for gods. Like it's this whole untouchable thing. And so to parade the head around. Wild stuff. And it's just meat, according to Hugh Hammer. I will say, let the record state that I am concerned, alarmed and dismayed by that reply to Hugh and the longing in his eye as he stared at the neck meat. Because he's like, hmm, dragon soup? Worrying.

We know how hard it is to get a chicken. I am alarmed. They carted that thing all the way from Brooks Rest

In the open air and the sun. I do think it's probably turned. I don't want to think about it at all, but if we must, I think it is probably turned. We have some timeline insights for Aegon's rotting flesh that we'll get to momentarily. But it's a great call-out in terms of the overall hype machine for the Targaryen. It makes me think that one of, again, that opening note back in the premiere of the entire series, that's part of that key conversation between Rhaenyra and Viserys, right? But they say that because of our dragons. So that's like...

one of the opening tone-setting moments between key characters. They are acknowledging that. Is Kristen thinking about that? Like, so one quote

Well, there's a couple things. Viserys saying the idea that we control the dragons is an illusion, right, from that opening scene. Yes. Like, this is destroying that illusion a little bit, right? That all-powerful Targaryen, don't worry that we ride around the sky on nukes. We've got it under control sort of thing. And then there's this, like, classic Game of Thrones quote from our guy Varys saying,

Varys' riddle, which is actually one of George's favorite things that he ever wrote, as Varys talking to Tyrion, right? About Varys, the sellsword, the king, who has the power in this scenario. And Varys' power, he argues, is ephemeral, a shadow. Power lies where we think it lies. Right.

This is where you get the whole small man can castle, long shadow sort of thing. Power lies where we think it lies. And so if we believe as the small folk, as the various lords and ladies of Westeros, that power resides with the dragons, and then you see a dragon cart around the streets,

It's really interesting. I was looking into like George's idea of like power and symbols of power. And when he talks about this various riddle, which he loves that he created, he says it was inspired by Ho Chi Minh in Vietnam. And he was like, why would anyone fight for this? Why would anyone follow this?

And he says, quote, George says, you go because you're afraid of what will happen if you don't go, even if you don't believe in it. But where do these systems of obedience come from? Why do we recognize power instead of individual autonomy? These questions are fascinating to me. It's all this strange illusion, isn't it? So this is the very important illusion that the Targaryens have created is that you're less than us. Right.

Because we've got these things that can light you up. Right. It is right that we rule. Yeah. You'd like to let someone else chip away at that illusion. The call coming from inside the house. It's a blunder. We're going to want that one back, Kristen. Boy. And then so the other thing, of course, driving this fear among the small folk, Jo, in addition to like, what does it mean if you see God paraded in front of you on a cart?

The impact of the blockade, which has been building and mounting across the episodes. Very central focus in this episode. And that was the case. The blockade was already in place in episode two during the first procession. But because of the increasing effect, okay, first it was really hard to find the chicken. And it was really expensive. And now...

There's no brown to even put into the bowls. Right. People are just stealing chickens from their neighbors. Neighbors stealing. The citrus is rotting. Brutal.

Rhaenyra will answer this. Tis an abomination. This is one of the things we hear. And so there's just this general fear of what will it mean if Dragon War comes to our city? What will it mean if that fire rains down on us instead of just the lords and their castles and their fields? Right. You're inviting an attack here by taunting them. When Dragon War begins, what have we heard throughout the season from many characters? Right. It will be savage beyond compare. And it's not just...

the high lords who are going to be aware of that. The small folk would understand because, and this is something else we've talked about a lot, like just thinking about where this show is slotted in the timeline and the way, and we've heard this from many characters, Craig and to Jace, Jane Aaron in this episode, et cetera, the fear that the Freys have when they're chatting with Jace about Vhagar, the blood from the conquest and the periods after.

Yes, we're coming off a stretch of Jaehaerys into Viserys' peace. But the characters here are not the characters in Game of Thrones who have lived their lives absent the presence of dragons at all. They know dragons exist and they know what it did to the kingdom when they last flew into the air. Well, it's not just all the way back to Aegon. It's Maegor who comes right before Jaehaerys. And I mean, that's the last, like the dragon on dragon action. My guy, Maegor.

Tough one. Your fave. Tough hang. Yeah. When are you going to wear the Megaro merch? You know, I don't have any. Maybe I'll look for it. We'll fight. Yeah. A picture of him on the crown impaled through the neck and the wrist. On the throne. Yeah. Always wonderful to revisit that stretch of fire and blood and confront, you know, yet another Aegon. Just yet another Aegon.

The place is crawling with them. Speaking of egg on and crawling. Yes, right. We'll go from the bread being scarce, as Massaria will say, of the small folk to the cabbage leaves and or fish scales being abundant. Joe, he may not be as fearsome as any of them, but he is as fearsomely burnt as any of them. Let's talk about our king.

We watch him smuggled into the city. I loved this. In like a matchbox. I've seen some people confused by this, but I'm just like, it's... I mean, to give Chris and Cole some semblance of dew, the dragon head is partially to distract from...

King in a box. Yeah. I know that there are tunnels and other entrances into the city and maybe it would have made more sense to smuggle him in that way. But he's in this like rag-draped box so that nobody notices that oops, our king's in there. Wonderful stuff. Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain and in the box. Exactly. Look at the dragon. Do you think they could hear Blackfire clanking about inside against his Valyrian steel armor when they pull Blackfire?

out of the box when they pulled Blackfire out of the box so tenderly yeah and then they just hoist him up I laughed out loud blanket gurney that was wonderful I did really get a kick out of the idea they're like kings come and go but we only have a few Valyrian steel swords Blackfire is forever the idea of that just like bumping against him for a week and a half

On their journey. But you know what's not bumping against him? The dagger. No. Because Aemon has that. It's on Aemon's belt. Alicent clocking that. This great... So we really made a meal out of this visual in the trailers. Oh, Alicent and Aemon's up on the walls of the Red Keep looking out. What are they looking at? Looking at what are they talking about together? Are they forging... No. They share nothing but a very...

pregnant silence here. Winky looks. And some meaningful looks. I really loved the framing because we start by seeing them head on, but then as Alicent is, they're looking down, and as she's looking at Aemond, we are seeing him in profile from the eyepatch side. And so it is just very difficult for us to see his expression, to be able to try to glean what is going on.

But that being said, I mean, I love that. I love that you point that out. But that being said, that's just Eamon. And you and Mitchell said that to us exactly is like his goal is that you never know what's going on inside of Eamon's head. I thought that facade cracked a couple of times in this episode in a way I felt very satisfied to see. When he picks, when he reaches and picks up the small ball.

He gives his mother a withering I beat you look. Withering. And it makes sense. Like how successfully could anybody contain that?

I don't know. What kind of game are you playing? If you're playing the long game, I don't know that you... Again, that's sort of like parading a dragon head through the street. It's like everyone knows you won. You don't need to, like, make a meal out of it. It's got to feel good. I guess so. To stare down your thwarted foe slash mother, even for a moment. To sort of blink them down. Yeah, exactly. So we follow Aegon's litter. It's kind of through the keep. We go up the stairs. We go down the hall. We go past Helena. I laughed again when I saw Helena. Helena's just like... Wild, wild.

wild stuff from Helena. And this episode is always excited to talk about her exchange with Ament. I hope she's thrilled. I don't think she is, but I hope she's like, well, that's one more thing I don't have to deal with. You know what I mean? Seems clear from the throne room exchange. This episode is brought to you by Experian. I don't know if you've ever looked in your subscriptions on your phone and noticed that you had like four or five subscriptions. Maybe you didn't realize you were still paying for, or maybe you got some email for something and you're like, I thought I canceled that. Well,

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for Damon that she has seen what happens. Oh, she definitely knows. Now the question of like, as you've raised before in prior pods, like does she see with clarity and context what is happening? Is it these sort of like out of context images and moods and glimpses? I mean, Thea has said that it's sort of like, I mean, it's possible that she saw

this happening like a while back, but didn't know exactly what it would be. And then when Aegon comes back in a box and Aemon's like drooling over the throne, she's like, oh, I see. Yes, right. Because it does make you think like, could she have chosen to say something and prevent this? But I like the idea that it all kind of crystallizes. That one-eyed dragon that I had a vision of.

Roasting the dragon with the crown on it. I guess that was what this was. He'll have to close an eye and wait a few extra seconds in the forest and then burn his brother while Kristen watches. Yeah.

Good stuff. So we get to see the horror on Allison's face as she watches them lower her little like roasted marshmallow getting ready for a s'more of a son onto the bed. And of course we were talking about like what would be going through Corliss's mind about the Alan conversation after losing Renise. Well, there's a version of this with Allison too. We think back to that really harrowing upsetting exchange that Allison and Aegon shared before he flew off. So we have to imagine that she's playing all

All of that through her mind again, that remorse of how she spoke to her son and then what he did. Will she get the chance to speak to him again? Wonderful to see that all playing on her face. Well, he's doing nothing, which is exactly what she asked him to do. Now he's doing nothing. Mm-hmm. He's going to be sitting there for a while. Yep. You know, going to need some time to heal. Speaking of healing and the state of medical treatment in King's Landing. Yeah.

Got some highlights here from this excruciatingly revolting scene that I love. This was great. It's the peeling. The peeling was, I agree. So which was the grossest part of this to you? Okay.

First of all, we learned in the House of Dragons built that it took them six hours to apply these prosthetics. Do you know that we don't know for certain, but do you know what I bet was liberally applied here? What? KY Jelly. Oh, for the pus. Yeah. This was my favorite detail, I think, from learning. Not necessarily for the pus, but for the goop. The goop, yeah. The sliming. You know what I mean? In the world of prosthetics, it's almost always KY Jelly is what they use for this. I'm dead serious. It was vivid. It was vivid.

It was vivid. I really liked learning that they were operating under the instruction that it had been like at least 10 days on the march. And so the infection and rot had set in and the pus, it needed to be abundant. Okay, here's my thoughts and feelings on this. Yeah. If it's to war then. Yeah.

We don't have a triage tent. We don't have a maester that travels with us to the battlefields. Yeah. We just leave him in his armor and let him roast? It does seem like we probably should have...

So Rosby and Stokeworth don't have a maester we can pop in and like utilize. Yeah, a little early restorative efforts. Yeah. As we make our way back home. It's a good note. It's a good note. I mean, let Orwell do the like main, but like a little triage would be helpful. It seemed like they did nothing. Absolutely nothing.

I mean, he was completely—they had to peel off the plates of the armor. So, okay, let's read the passage from the book that describes his state because then I have a question for you. Yeah. His royal rider had suffered broken ribs, a broken hip, and burns that covered half his body. His left arm was the worst. The dragon flame had burned so hot that the king's armor had melted into his flesh.

Do you think that part of the reason the armor was updated in the show to be Valyrian steel armor is to avoid having to do that effect moving forward? 100%. Because we thought they were going to have to, they were going to do it and it was going to be really fun and that's why they spent so long designing it. I was really looking forward to this. And now they're like, well,

Well, Targaryen steel does a mouth. Oh, there is like some of the chain mail in the arm. So maybe some of that can make its way into the flesh. I'm not, I haven't given up hope yet. You're holding out hope. I haven't given up hope yet. So in the book, as we knew and we're looking forward to, his armor melts into him. Just a wonderful touch from George. And that's just not what happens. Simply not what happened here. What did you think was grosser? The popping of the leg bone?

Revolting. The peeling of the armor plates off of the flesh, or specifically the great touch of Orwyle and Alicent raising their hands to their nose so that we know how rank Aegon smells. Like, Bannon, he is not. Not all roasted man flesh smells delicious. Ed! Gross. Gross.

I think I still have to go with the goopening. It still has to be the goopy peel. The peeling and then the ooze of the blood. Okay. That was a lot. That was a lot. Listen, I just want to say we got several emails about a question that has plagued probably George R.R. Martin since HBO first started doing Game of Thrones.

The question is, aren't Targaryens fireproof? Right. They are not. Mallory, in your long time covering this universe, how many times has someone asked you that question? Oh, a lot. Comes up all the time. So many times. Yeah, all the time. It's because the show...

The idea of Daenerys walking into the flames with her dragon eggs, etc., is supposed to be a one-time... Magical... Wild and crazy things that happened. The fact that she then does it again and, oops, her clothes burn off and she burns all the cows, but she's fine. Yeah. That's not supposed to have happened. And in fact, in the book, at a different point...

like, burns all her hair off. Like, Daenerys herself gets burned by dragon fire. So it is not true that Targaryens are fireproof. George has said that many, many times, and I can understand why show watchers only would be confused by that because it seems like, I mean, Viserys loves to say, fire cannot burn a dragon or whatever, like, all that sort of stuff like that, but no. You can burn a Targaryen. You can reduce him to goo. Just remember little Johnny Boy and his burnt hand, you know? Yeah.

Sure. Helpful data point right there at the start. At the start of all things. Yes, this is good to refresh on this. Just a reminder, I will say...

Is this the last Targaryen that's going to get burned before all is said and done? Probably not. In the Dance of the Dragons, there's no injury by flame ever again. They're like, oh, this is... Oh, okay. We've gone too far. War over. Sometimes your house burns, as Daemon likes to say. Sometimes your flesh burns. Sometimes your king burns. It happens. So interesting that you say your king and not your son, because Alicent gave us the opposite. She said to Orweil, who is...

I thought reasonably like, can we chat later? I'm trying to save his life. He's like, the silent sisters are here. Yeah. Everyone is waiting for the cake. The silent sister's just standing there waiting for Aegon to take his last shuddering breath. It was another great little touch. But Alicent says, is my son going to die? We get that great little mummy Aegon moment later when Alicent is just sitting there like by his sickbed. Alicent's saying, my son died.

We chronicled at length last week all of the things that have transpired between them. And you felt in that moment most of all, I thought, the remorse that she is carrying for the nature of their relationship as mother and child. She doesn't say, as she might have elsewhere, how is the king?

Right. Is his grace going to recover? And so, like, there's a lot that we can understand about what's going through her head just from those two words. My son. She's probably feeling quite maternal towards Aegon in this moment. I would say she's probably feeling the opposite to Aemon. She's not a fan of Aemon. When he comes in, the crowd, like, parts for him. Everyone is already, like, ready to treat him like the king. And the way he even positions himself at the edge of the bed. Yeah. Almost like he's, like, up at the podium. Yeah.

About to preach to the masses? Yeah. And he's like, someone will have to roll in his stead. So this is not going to be the last moment in the episode where we confront this, but in that line, the quickness, the haste with which he makes that observation, the kind of cold, unfeeling way that he says it, it does not seem that Amon Wonai, Amon Wonai,

is carrying a lot of remorse for what he has done to his brother. Versus what he did to Luke. Yeah, which is interesting. Now, maybe we just haven't seen him in the circumstance where he would either process that or reveal that to somebody. Right, where's Sylvie? Let's wait until he gets in front of Sylvie. Yes, like, why?

What do you think, though? Is it something he's just not allowing himself to interrogate and feel? Or does he not feel it? Because we know he's, like, said he felt bad about Luke, right? I think it's definitely a very different animal from Luke. Like, Luke was an innocent child.

And this was an active choice he made. And we talked before about this idea of Aemond like cloaking himself in his own reputation. And like the boy we met at the end of season one who was like, Vhagar, no. Is not the man. Kill the boy, let the man be born. Like is not the man who is eyeballing the throne in this episode. And he is just sort of like...

Whether or not he will have any kind of reckoning with that down the road, you know, as we're seeing Damon being sort of like pushed into reckoning with some of his actions, I don't know. This is not a moment for reflection. Yeah, and it's interesting too because even though we hear him in the first episode of the season say to Kristen kind of resentfully, my mother blames me for this, but they were all plotting to steal the throne. Grace speaks with two tongues.

Luke, he does have to, he does recognize and acknowledge that what happened with Luke set into, I mean, sin begets sin. Not sure if you've heard. It's hard to identify where this all started. But that was the accelerating and or, depending on your perspective, start of a thing. Whereas this is like, we're in it now. And so maybe that has some bearing too on what level of like culpability he feels because this is about now winning. Aegon flew into battle.

So knowingly flew into battle. Your liability. An adult man flew into battle versus a kid trying to like desperately do his mother's bidding to get peace on his little like hummingbird dragon, you know? Sweet A-Rex. The first one was vengeance and personal and this was like the liability of war. But his anti-Alicent...

So it's so interesting talking to you and Mitchell last week about this idea. It never occurred to me that he would be carrying harboring like specific resentment towards like someone like Rainey's who was, as he pointed out, in the room when he lost his eye and all these adults were there and no one was advocating for him.

Allison was advocating for him. She was the only one really advocating for him in that room. So the fact that he's resentful towards Rhaenys and Corlys and Rhaenyra and Daemon and, you know, all these other people. And it was like basically like, I guess, Kristen and Allison who were like on his team, I suppose. Like, that all makes sense to me. Where do you think the like...

anti-Alicent rift start? Does it start post-Luke? Because we know from book context how Alicent received, and we got a bit of show context in terms of like little snide remarks and small counsel. Do you feel like it was, do you feel like he was already out on his mom before the end of season one? Or was this a post-Luke, her, her,

treating him as a monster. We've heard Allison say multiple times in this episode, like, you know what Aemond is. Yeah. I would trace it back to before An Eye for an Eye. I think that Aemond's traced me as a character who would not let go of the other laments and sources of resentment that he's carrying because you stood for him once, especially because so much of that scene, like, yeah, she is like

He's disfigured. His eye is gone. I know it wasn't really about him. Yeah, he almost becomes... And I think he would clock that, like, he became for her in that moment just, like, another cudgel to use in her war with Rhaenyra. Whereas, like, before that, we get... He comes back from being bullied and humiliated at the Dragonpit. And she's like, what the fuck is wrong with you? Why do you care about the most important thing for who you are as a person? I understand that. I just still think that, like...

I really feel like Alicent had not a great but like an okay relationship with Aemond and a better relationship with Helena and a bad relationship with Aegon from the start I think you're certainly right that it has devolved further after Luke but I think also like even thinking about what he voices to Kristen in the penultimate episode of season one during the quest for Aegon the race against the Carbos yeah

Indeed. Indeed. Great murder cloak, though. I think even the fact that his mother was propping up this person who he thinks is a joke, there would be a part of him that would say, like, well, what about me? Why can't you recognize that I'm the worthier son? I've studied history and philosophy. Philosophy!

Philosophy, Joe. Oh, amen. What a wonderful character. Allison, wonderful character. Team Green, as Chris is fond of pointing out, very interesting to watch. It's also interesting to watch the cleaning of a sword, as it were. Joe, when life gives you lemons, you know, we always say, clean the...

10-day-old rotting blood and flesh off your sword? I don't have it in front of me, but we did get a couple emails saying that this is actually quite a great trick for scouring... Seemed like it. Maybe not your sword, but a pot and or a pan. It seemed incredibly effective. I'm not going to judge any listener who might have a blood-encrusted sword at home that needs cleaning, but who's to say how it got that way? But pots and pans, you need to scour them, use some lemon and salt. But here's the question. Yeah, yeah. Um...

You and I both talked about this on Talk to Thrones, how much we love this visual as like a ritualistic sort of unclean. Yes. You know, the cleanliness of the white cloak. Yes. Comparing this to Alison scrubbing herself clean in the bath, this sort of like out, out, damn spot Lady Macbeth moment for both of them. Yes. All of that. Great. Yes. The pursuit of the purity that is completely elusive to them now. We had several emails. Mm-hmm.

This will not be the last time I say that. Saying that it was painful to watch Kristen use lemons for this when the small folk are left with rotten citrus in the marketplace. That he's like, this is a cleaning supply. And they're like, this is... The sustenance of life itself. We're starving and you're using salt and lemons to clean your sword. Fantastic observation. And cabbage leaves and or fish skins to kill your king.

And we're starving. Every time the small folk come up

among the ruling members of the Greens. It's simply about what they will think of them, right? Well, look what I earned you with your dead son's funeral march. Look what you have risked and lost with your rat catchers. Okay, let's try this dragon head gambit. When the small folk come up, when Orwell mentions them in this episode, he's like, we should really, this is getting like out of hand. We should really talk about it.

It's all from Aemon's perspective. We'll get to that scene later, obviously. Close the gates, lock them in. Because they're leaving and talking shit about us, we can't risk spreading bad headlines. There has not been a moment. And it's interesting, actually, because this was, even if it was tactical rather than from some sort of like truly kind and nurturing spirit. Think of the number of times in Game of Thrones where it was like, can we count on the Reach? Yeah.

for weed can we count on a part of striking an alliance with somebody was are we going to be able to get enough sustenance to keep our people alive so that they don't turn on us so that they don't riot in the street and throw shit at the king's face and tear the high septum limb from limb like they did in season two and they're not thinking about it that way so it wouldn't occur we can just deduce at this point it wouldn't occur to them to say we have such a bounty should we share it no Marjorie's not here that's a Marjorie move yeah

Oh, man. Or maybe even Otto. Otto would be like, let's send the queen and the dowager queen out into the streets with citrus and salts for all the people. Maybe just bring like one little basket, but make sure people see you handing out those lemons. The paparazzi will be called. Backgrid will be called and they will be there to capture the event. This is the like in vogue actor goes to farmer's market of King's Landing. Love it.

I love it. Absolutely wonderful. Goes to the library with his canvas tote. Yeah. Great stuff. So, Jo, Allison does not... Interested in making any small talk. Does not say to Kristen, like, glad you're okay. Good to see you alive. Brutal. One of the many brutal beats for Kristen in this episode. And she wants to know what happened. And Kristen gives...

The same official spin that we heard from the Herald, right? The king fought valiantly. He did fucking great. He tried really hard. What a brave boy. That's so funny because I heard that Rhaegar fought valiantly and Rhaegar died. Rhaegar died. Man. Brutal. No, this is great because it's so clear. I think you asked this question last week and I can't remember. I think I gave you the wrong answer. I can't even quite remember what I said, but you were like, well,

Well, your bigger question was who saw or was able to correctly interpret what they saw when Vhagar rolled up on Sunfire? And let's be clear, if there's anyone on the ground that's able to correctly interpret what happened there, it would be Kristen because he knew what the plan was supposed to be.

Right. And so he knew that it took Vhagar a little too long to heave herself up from the forest floor and everything that happened from there. So when he's like, I could not say. Couldn't say. Well, I could, but I'm not gonna. It's absolute bullshit and Alicent knows. Right. And it's, I could not say because I don't want things to unravel further, but also I could not say because, and we'll talk about this more and how this manifests in their riveting conversation.

scene. What a series of conversations we've witnessed between these two in that courtyard. My goodness. A truly excellent Kristen Cole episode. Incredible. It hurt me to say it, but I said it.

You said it and you looked into the camera so they know you mean it. I'm fair. You are. You are. The personal guilt and regret that he is carrying for his role in this, and, like, we talked about this on Talk of Thrones. It's not like Aemon needs Kristen's permission, but from Kristen's perspective, this is the guy that he aligned with to plot his war, and he has no ability to control or understand that. None. And so, like...

I was revisiting that sequence and, like, the way that he's looking up when he sees him arrive. Yeah, I'm assuming, based on everything we watched from Kristen in this episode, that he saw the indiscriminate Dracarys, right? At a minimum. He didn't care what happened to his brother. Yeah. And the other extreme is he actively tried to kill him. Open to interpretation, but came across him with sword out by the king's body. Like, he is carrying all of that with him in addition to just the fact that

His plan, his secret mission that he was so proud of, oh, I've set this trap, resulted in this outcome. Yeah, he's in desperate spin mode. He's like, this is great. Guess what? We got the head of a dragon. Yes. The king fought valiantly. Pay no attention to the fact that he's goo now. It's all fine. Actually, a couple of our listeners, but Joe asked...

Just wondering if Allison really wanted the true story of what went down in the Battle of Rook's Rest, why didn't she ask her brother Gawain? I thought the main reason she assisted on Gawain joining Cole was to keep tabs on him. To that last part, to be fair, that was just my interpretation of what happened in the courtyard scene. It was never overtly stated that Gawain was there. Gawain was like, I have some other inns on my list that I wanted to visit, so I'll just hit the road again. But it seemed like he was there to babysit Kristen Cole, but the fact that Allison...

I think as Freddie Fox fans, in general... One line from Freddie is just simply not enough. It's just not sufficient. We're a little dismayed that there is no interaction between Allison and Gwaine post-Rook's Rest. What happened, Gwaine? It's interesting because... What did you see? What was Chris and Cole like on the road? Like, blah, blah, blah. Yeah. Wasn't he there to be eyes and ears for Team Hightower? This is a really, really good question that honestly had not occurred to me on first watching the episode, but now I kind of can't stop thinking about it. And I guess...

So maybe we will see a conversation between Allison and Gawain later. We can only hope. Who knows? But I think the only, my only explanation is while Gawain would be the source of unvarnished truth that his sister could seek out and might even be eager to report on his like account of events. Boy, do I have a lot to fill you in on. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

We are so deeply invested in, we have just spent so much time with Kristen and Allison that actually we, I think it would be weirder to have that missing, the conversation between the two of them. Oh, I agree, but I want both. Well, that's my question. It's like, did they just feel maybe that that was one too many versions of the same conversation in an episode that is largely oriented around conversations about the choices and mistakes that people have made and what they'll be allowed to do next? Yeah.

But, I mean, will I ever say no to Morgawain? You won't. Come on. Absolutely not. Very quickly, can we talk about what Kristen says about Sunfire? You already quoted this line, the long and the dying. So I think people seem a little bit confused about this. Our read on this is that because the line right before it is, I left a meager garrison behind to protect it and the king's dragon. Sunfire was long and the dying. So Kristen, I think, is just assuming that Sunfire will succumb to his injuries. Sunfire was taking a long time to die is how you should—

But that does not mean that he has died. The phrasing is antiquated, but if you substitute that with, I left a meager garrison behind to protect it and the king's dragon, Sunfire was taking a really long time to die. Right. And he hasn't yet. And he hasn't died yet. So it might as well be like my guard dragon while he is marching toward what I assume will be death, is I think what Kristen is saying here. Yeah. Okay. So Jace. Let's go to Jace. He's hatching a plot and a scheme and a scheme and a plot. Mallory and Joanna were long in the podcasting.

Jace is doing the sulky Damon thing. Oh, my God. The Pommel work in this episode is out of control. Wonderful stuff. We have been on Pommel Watch all season, but this is just...

Excellent Chris and Cole episode. Excellent Jace episode. Oh, fantastic Jace episode. Just fantastic. I'd say get this guy a doorway to lean in against to do the full Damon, but he doesn't need it. He's doing such great pommel work. Yeah, the pommel work. So he's marching off. Bela stops him. What are you doing? He says he's going to go find Damon at Harrenhal to get him to affirm his loyalty to Rhaenyra. And Bela is like, you're talking about my dad.

This isn't going to work. Why do you think this is going to work? Let me give you my coddled princeling speech I've been working on in the mirror. This was great. My mother gladly sends you away to scout to fight whilst I'm here being forced to play the coddled princeling. It's humiliating, Bela. I love them. Me too. I love them both in this episode. Yeah, same. I would love a little bit more...

We're young and hot and betrothed energy from them. You want them fucking. I mean, or something closer to. Yeah. They seem very sibling-y, you know, they're cousins or whatever. But like. Yeah. I would love a little bit like we're engaged. Yeah. Let's go back up to that hill. The world's about to burn. Yeah. Let's do some target practice, if you know what I mean. You know what I mean? A little crossbow action and a little hand exercise of a different sort. Why not?

Who says no? Just saying. I see no flaws in the logic here. I like the coddled princeling thing a lot because we're talking a lot throughout this episode about the parallels between where Alison finds herself and Rhaenyra finds herself. Aemon, Daemon, et cetera. It's fun to think about

Jace and Rhaenyra are really carrying the same resentment and longing for the same thing, but Jace is still telling his mom, you can't go. You can't put yourself at risk. But then so deeply resents her not wanting him to go out into the field. It also reminds me, I mean, Aemond and Daemon are the parallels that we'll talk about a little bit later on in this episode, clearly, but

Between the pommel acting from Harry Collette as Jace, so clearly mimicking Damon, I think also this idea of like, Damon saying to Viserys, you'll send me anywhere. You'll send me to the Vale. You'll send me to the Watch. I just want to be by your side. You know what I mean? And this is like Jace just being like,

I just want to be of use. Yeah. Yeah. Let me go. Let me fight. And mine. Yeah. Right? And mine. Yeah. This is just a really, like you said, really good Jace episode. And I like to think, too, of the comps between not just the

that they find themselves in currently, but young Rhaenyra? Oh, yeah. Course on our mind because we've got to spend time with young Rhaenyra in Daemon's dreams this season. But Jace just flat out, it will work. We will be touting Jace's, like, prodigy-level skill as a diplomat later in the episode. Yeah, his Model UN skills are out of control. Wonderful stuff. Very active in debate club. Yeah. The fact right now, though,

here in this moment, is that he is disregarding what he was told. And... He's taking his dragon to a bridge. We love it. Just like Rhaenyra did. Because it's the exact thing Rhaenyra did. It's the exact thing Rhaenyra did. And...

There were so many moments in season one, including just the return from that Dragonstone trip where Viserys was like, you're my heir, you can't get yourself killed. But also just in general, like the, oh, well, then you should not deprive yourself moment after she called off the courtship tour early, right? Or you are my political headache. Like the fact that Rhaenyra was willful

And would do the thing that she thought was right was a part of what won all of us to her. We talked about this in the sense that like, and that's part of what attracted Damon to her as well. And with that absent, it's like, it's affecting their relationship. Like he called out in the episode two fight, she's reminding him more now of Viserys. Oh yeah, 100%. But I think what's interesting is that Jace is having a much more, a much different relationship with his parents.

than Rhaenyra had with hers. Like, Viserys was more involved in her life than he was with any of his other kids, but he was still... My only child? Yeah, but he was still quite absent. You know? Absent most with Daeron, the boarding school kid, but everyone, you know, like...

So, but Rhaenyra, she's a loving, like, active parent with Jace. It's a different dynamic. Helping him with his lessons when he's upset with himself that he can't learn his Valyrian quickly enough, etc. So a light bulb goes off here for Jace.

All right. Forget Harrenhal. Forget Daemon. Go into the twins. Go into the twins. Nothing bad has ever happened at the twins. Let's go. It's always fine. Let's go deal with the Freys. They're cool. It'll be chill. I don't want to marry the Freygans. The graveyard that he secured from Craig and Stark. Craig. Big Craig. You're good, Craig.

Christmas guy. They're marching south. They're going to need to cross a crossing that he can secure by going to treat with the phrase. And we quickly shift from Bela trying to stop him from going to saying like, yeah, I will keep your confidence. I won't mention this until you're gone. Just one more other lovely moment between them. Delightful. Jace, Bela, young love. I mean, again, I would love it to be sparkier. It feels like love, like young affection. And I would like it to be. You think they fucked yet?

The world's about to end. They should, right? Coupling. Absolutely. Thank you. Yeah, there you go. Coupling. Whether they would fuck out on the hillside or any cozy confine on Dragonstone, I can't say. But what I can tell you is that Damon is finally getting some fresh air. I wish I could tell you that it would be improving his mental state.

Not so. I'm obsessed with, there's so much behind the scenes. It's like, Wales, what a country. Yeah. Right? But I'm obsessed with the visual we got in the behind the scenes. They took the dragon. Yeah. Like. The buck. The buck.

He got to ride the buck out in the field. The buck out of the studio and plonked it in this, like, Welsh field. And it's just Matt Smith being like, I got to get wet again. It was great. I loved it. Not sure if you've heard. Hates being hot. Loves being wet. Loves being wet.

I love this view. God, this is being good. Thank you. A rainy countryside. That was amazing. So I was like, how did they get these eyelines right and everything if they're doing this in the volume and everything else is out on location? No, they just brought the buck out into the field. They sure did. Sensational stuff. It was wonderful. Stonehenge. We were wondering if we would see Stonehenge. Here we are in Brackenland, a castle in the distance. Beautiful. Beautiful scenery. Beautiful. You're Welsh. I am Welsh. Yeah. This was lovely. Thanks. Let's add this to our tour. I'll take that back to my people.

So Daemon is out here for a couple reasons. One, he is ultimately trying to, like, honor his pledge to Willem, take care of the Brackens, and the Blackwood swords are yours. But for Daemon, it's not just take care of the Brackens for the Blackwoods. It's let me win these swords to my side, right? I'm here for swords, not corpses. This is a fascinating...

We get a couple of those trailer lines that were just instant, like, pantheon moments for us and we couldn't wait to see. Oh, your house burns. Which did you ultimately like more in the context of the show? Or your house burns? Or I did not think they would be so eager to die. Oh, your house burns is just...

I did not think they would be so eager to die. It's so delightful when coupled with the visual of him and his, like, full armor just sort of, like, plunked down. On a rock. On a rock. You know? Just looking so, like, hapless. Having a think on a rock. That was great. I think that was my favorite. This is all part of a larger Damon conversation that I want to have a little bit later on in our discussion, so I'll save it for then. But I'll just say, like, just real ineffective stuff from Damon here. Yeah.

We have some notes. Just really like missing the mark. Yeah. The anti-diplomats. And then also in terms of like undermining your own authority, if he's like, follow me or burn. And they're like, we choose burn. And then you do nothing. And then you do nothing. Yeah.

Yeah. Why would they take your threats seriously? Where's your authority? Yeah. No, it's a confounding Damon episode in a few respects. I did really, well, we're going to share some of the questions and critiques of the later scenes. Not the dream where he fucks his mom, to be clear. That was flawless. No, no. I genuinely have

notes on that. But this scene I did really love because, like, this felt... We have questions about is this where we thought things were going with Damon later. Here, like, this feels true to me. The fact that he is...

sort of haphazardly and recklessly, that he's not like you're identifying, playing out the string of like what are the ramifications of not following through, especially if you're the guy who just breaks out Dark Sister and cuts off Vaemon's head in the throne room. And you typically are too rash in one direction. This is almost like contrary to that, right? He's more passive here than we would expect, but that feels as reckless in some way

Lost his mojo. But ultimately we get to see that it is because he has a plot, a scheme, a scheme, a plot. A couple things struck me here. One, the fact that... That's something he comes up with on the fly. It's not... It wasn't like his long game. But that's what... That part feels true to form to me for Damon. Like, that's very Blood and Cheese 2.0. The fact that he is like...

first of all, basically Willem Blackwood, who he met five seconds ago in a drug-addled conversation that he couldn't track in real time, is like his go-to assigned sword now for, okay, well, you can't get the Brackens to, you can't necessarily engage and beat them in battle. Try a different type of persuasion. The fact that he is making the same mistake with trusting somebody else that he doesn't really know to enact a

plan that he's crafting in real time. Is this like a step up from the like rapey gold cloak and the stranger rat catcher? A lord of a house that you're aligning with is better than blood and cheese but at the end of the day he's sort of issuing this like vague edict. He literally says like you take my meaning then. Do you? Does he?

What reason does Daemon have to believe that? Especially because in the fourth episode, he's the one who said, so you fight for this old oath, meaning to Rhaenyra and Viserys. Not, of course, for your thousand-year-old feud with the Brackens. Like, he actually was on guard for this and still let this happen. Well, we have to just assume that he's like...

high out of his mind at all times through all of this. This is why I thought the fresh air might like clear his head a little bit. It didn't work. But I think also, and I agree, and what I did love, so we got concerned emailed from listeners before the season started about like, what would Damon's storyline be this season? And there's a lot about his storyline that we quite like, and I'm not going to eat into like us discussing this later. But

But one of the quotes that was sent over from our concerned listeners was, like, from Matt Smith himself talking about how Damon is just sort of, like, slower. Like, you know, just...

off his game this season. And Matt Smith seemed like he didn't quite, like, I think he preferred playing the, like, you know, the rogue prince, the dashing, you know, firebrand. And here he's like, I'm drugged and I'm drooling and I'm fucking my mom and I'm making mistakes out in the fields of Wales. But I think that what I did love is in this exchange with Willem, this incredible

ill-advised scheme. He's got his little, like, smirky smile on his face that he loves to put on when he's just doing, he knows he's doing a bad thing. Yeah, hatching mischief. Yeah. Yeah. Just impish. Absolutely. A scamp of war crimes. He is. Just, scamp is perfect description. I liked...

Two, that we can feel how Damon admires something that he sees in someone else that reminds him of, like, this aspect of himself, right? Like, the fact that he says, they would rather burn than succumb, exactly the kind of man I need. He's not mad at the Brackens. This just makes him long even more fervently for their allegiance because they—

ignore him because they say fuck you to they call Caraxies Willem Blackwood's

higher dragon. Like, this is so insulting and part of this larger portrait across these episodes and this one in particular of, like, the Riverlords and the Riverlands as a place that isn't really drinking the Targaryen Kool-Aid the way that a lot of other places are. And he is drawn to that and would build in this episode to him saying later, like, you know, anyone can be led if you give them a reason. He thinks he's going to be the guy. Yeah.

who can amass an army of daemons and win the war, which is just astonishing. And there are things the crown itself must not be seen to do, which will mirror the Massaria council to Rhaenyra. Right, Massaria will say, yeah.

That's a great idea. I guess you just... Absent all the details in particular. Yeah, if you're just talking to Will and Blackwood, I suppose you should say, so don't fly our banners. So what I mean by the crown cannot be seen to do it is definitely don't fly our sigil. And to be clear, don't assume that they'll think it was Aegon's banner because he's changed his. Wild stuff from Daemon. Yeah, incredible, incredible Daemon stuff. Really, really tough. Really tough. Whales, though. Sheesh.

From one gorgeous locale to another, Jo. The Vale. The Vale. Pull up your hood. Memorable shade. We're going to The Vale.

We get to see the redesigned Eyrie. This was really fun for us. We get to see stone and snow and sky and the Bloody Gate and glimpse the Giant's Lance. This is a really fun setting to return to and see the slightly redesigned Eyrie. And of course, as will also be the case with the twins later in the episode, you know, as Game of Thrones fans, we are bringing all of these memories and associations from our times in these locations, which were, for both of those spots, often grim. Often grim. Fewer nursing...

tweens? Yeah, definitely fewer. Zero, as far as I can tell. In this episode. So that's dismaying. But great stuff from Lady Jane. I was sad, as you know, that we didn't get to see Jace's trip to treat with Lady Jane. But we basically got all of the things that we were looking forward to seeing in that potential scene in this scene between Jane and... Kind of. Yes. In terms of like what is driving her. I will say... What her motivations are. I really like this actress who plays Jane. I've liked her in other things.

This didn't land with the same splash. This felt a little inert to me, this exchange. I do like there's sort of like common cause that they find with each other. And I'm hopeful for like Reyna in the veil and whatever that might bring. But Jane, I don't think is like leaping off the page the way that like Simon Strong did or Gwyn Hightower did instantly or Ulf did. Or even, or Cregan. Or, well, yeah.

Did Craig, like, leap off the page for you? Yes. I was like, I cannot wait. I genuinely cannot wait to spend more time with Craig and Stark. Cannot wait. I understand, like, wanting to spend more time with the North and Winterfell and all that sort of stuff like that. Craig was pretty good. I just think that, like, if we're ranking the new characters, it's like Alice and Simon and Ulf, you know, like, these are the all-killer, no-filler. You know what I mean? And then you get to, like, Craig and Jane, etc.,

But this fire and blood passage of what Lady Jyn says to Jace. Yes. Thrice have mine own kin sought to replace me.

my cousin sir arnold is want to say that women are too soft to rules i have him in one of my sky cells if you would like to ask him like great stuff the the the the borders of that sentiment is there in the conversation with reina but my cousin is in the sky cells if you want to ask him would be such a bitching thing for lady jane to say in this uh scene and she doesn't good stuff we do need a little more of that like thor families can be tough energy from

parties. Yeah, it's not just the Targaryens who want to tear each other down. Rhaena, she is doing what Rhaenyra asked, right? She's not only getting the kids, the dragons, the eggs up to the Vale until she can write to Prince Regio. She's asking for those 15,000 swords. Now, I wanted to ask you about this. I want to talk about the, like, still life from the egg dragon thing, etc. But when we... One of our series-long areas of interest has been Rhaenyra...

the ally maker. Rhaenyra, the diplomat. Rhaenyra, the relationship tender. Do you think...

That this is the Reina go and remind Lady Jane that she promised us 15,000 swords. Like, does this give you a whiff at all of the Baratheon miscalculation at Storm's End? Remind Lord Boris of his oath. Like, Rhaenyra has a lot of remind this person via emissary that they told me they would do this thing.

Yeah, but I think we're meant to take that later when she sends Bela to Corlys that that was the right move. So, like, in some instances, her sending these emissaries, sending Jace was the right move. For sure. You know, just because Luke was too wet from the egg to complete that mission. Like, you know, so I think in some of these cases, the emissaries that she's picking and choosing are the right ones. And there's ways in which, you know, Rhaena and Jane, like,

I don't think, like, a tough act of aggression would have worked with Jane the way that Reyna being like, guess what? I also mislike feeling powerless. So there's ways in which I think Reyna is actually, like, the right person for the job here. I can understand if you're like...

Hey, Rhaenyra, maybe you could yourself go sometimes and instead of, say, remind, say, like, sort of entreat or something like that. That's the thing. It's more the second thing. Yeah. I think ultimately, actually, Rhaenyra needs more people she can rely on, which is part of the text of this episode, right? Like, I do not wish to stand on my own. Like, I think I will have to rely on you more. That actually, I think, is a good and welcome thing for Rhaenyra. I'm pretty sure that, like, Rhaena won't just, like, ghost her the way that Daemon has when he went to Harrenhal. Yeah.

I think Reyna's going to return the ravens from the Vale. Probably so. Needing to send Sir Alfred because Daemon won't text you back is just a rough place to be. But yeah, I think it is that the specific framing, because sending Jace was right and good. Jace...

We'll talk about it later in the phrase team, but one of the things that really stood out to me of emblematic of Jace's approach, when they mentioned Veigar and he's like, what about my known dragon right there? There's Vermex. He's not issuing it. The threat is implied. Of course, it's tacit. But he is able to spin it right away as a bridge between them, as the carrot, not the stick. He's able to say, and so I can protect you. And he's like, and also Caraxes. Yeah.

Damon will just do what he's told. If my dragon looks a little young, may I remind you we also have Caraxes. Good old Caraxes. Great to see Caraxes. Also Harrenhal. Do you want Harrenhal? Man. Man. Wet from the egg. What do you think of this read on receiving two dragons? I think this is correct. And your point, your counter argument was we saw Daenerys' dragons when they were quite young. Drogon taking the lead. Burning Krasnoss. Burning the shit out of people. Mm-hmm.

But also Drogon didn't have to fight an adult dragon when Drogon was a baby. Correct. I do not think that Tyraxes and Stormcloud at their current sizes are going to be ready to fend off a Vhagar attack. Obviously, that is not something that we have any reason to believe is true. Or literally any adult dragon. But... Dreamfire, who may or may not even exist anymore. In general...

You would be the envy of the realm if you had two dragons. You're not a Targaryen and you have two dragons at your keep. I think she is undervaluing.

But this all gets back to the, like, is Rhaenyra working and massaging these relationships the right way? Because I think there's a way to position that, not as why are you being such an ingrate, but as, like, yeah, I've overpromised, which Rhaenyra tries to do. But is there – could there have been a – or not. Is the – like, Rhaenyra actually is trying to basically exploit a loophole in the dragon agreement, and Jane is calling her out on it. It's a fascinating one. Fascinating one. I miss, like, feeling powerless.

You can feel how this would be true for so many people, right? We have the history in the Vale. Visenya, during the conquest, flying in on Vhagar, taking the air, Ronal Arryn, the air to the Vale, bouncing him, bopping him on her knee to just say, there's nothing that you can do to avoid our dragons. We can reach you wherever you are, right? Impregnable, though you may think your castle is. It's not just Bronn and his climbing spikes and his ten men. It's Visenya and her dragon. Yeah.

I like that that tie was present for Reyna and the way that we've explored with her the mission where Nero sends her on the conversation that she has with Bela where she's like, do not cop me. At least do me that. Show me that decency. Reyna is feeling powerless. And these characters who aren't on dragons, I continue to be interested in how the show is showing us the different ways that the characters who aren't riders are contributing and are essential actually to the effort, but also how they feel differently.

maybe inadequate in the face of that might and also for reina because she doesn't have this dragon and that has been such a such a source of pain for her there would be this aspect of like how dare you not appreciate the fact that you have two dragons now like this is the most precious thing in the world of my life has been defined by seeking it that felt present there as well joe let's chat about raniera

We're going to go a little out of order here, the Black Council scene into the Masaria conversation, because that is a debrief of this

kind of shocking confrontation that Rhaenyra and Ser Alfred have in front of the assembled. This is one that, like, another thing just, like, really felt too, like, on the nose. Like, you do not think that he would actually say after some marital spat or it is merely that the gentler sex heretofore has not been much privy to the strategies of battle to his liege in front of the assembled counselors. I mean, like, listen, as someone who has had, like,

men talk down to me in my life or whatever. I'm not saying that like this doesn't happen in the world. I'm just saying like with Alfred especially, they're just like putting their foot on the gas so hard with this character that I'm like, I get it. Yeah. This guy sucks and he thinks women are dumb. Yes. This did give me like, do you really know anything about sports vibes? Do you get that? It's, I think it's a very common thing for women in sports media. Really feel sure that Alfred is not inviting any women to his fantasy football league. So,

Rhaenyra goes into this conversation with Mysaria. Rhaenys, dead. Yeah. Right? Daemon, dead.

Jay's on his secret little rogue mission. Masaria increasingly across these recent episodes has become Rhaenyra's confidant. Yes. And Rhaenyra laments to her the way that her council treats her. And it was interesting when Masaria asked, like, are they blaming you? She's like, I would prefer they did because that would be almost the product of an active thing, right? Right. Feeling kind of like the prisoner of this passivity. And she laments specifically the fact that Viserys did not

prepare her for the fight, the battle. We saw Viserys watching the boys in the training yard. This is the stuff, Lionel. Rhaenyra didn't get that version of that. And like one of our introductory moments with the character, she's flying down on Cyrax. She goes to visit her mom in the birthing bed. And she says to Emma in the first episode of the series, I'd rather serve as a knight and ride to battle and glory. We have royal wombs, you and I, her mother says. The child bed is our battlefield. So this is like one of our earliest stories

Right. Or understandings of Rhaenyra. Or Rhaenys mocking her for just being a cupbearer. You know what I mean? Yeah. That bummed me out, honestly, the cupbearer part of it, to hear that redeployed here as like a lament from Rhaenyra. I was made to learn the names of the great lords and the castles and fill a cup and stand by. And it's like, those are worthy things. Those are meaningful things. You should have gotten that in addition to this other thing. But it has been subsumed by the resentment about the absence of the other. Aegon didn't even get that. Exactly. Right? You know? Certainly not. Or if it was an offer to him, he did not. Yeah.

Certainly the cupbearer was not an offer, but the tutelage was. This disparity is definitely something that, again, it's very much like...

on the nose in terms of a lot of things in this episode, but this idea of disparity between a male and a female heir in George R.R. Martin's work. We talked before about Cersei and how Cersei was treated versus how Jaime was treated. Another example is, like, Catelyn and Edmure, right? Catelyn was going to be the heir before Edmure came along, but, like, Catelyn was never given...

the training that Amir was given. And so it's just sort of like, this has been something that, like, George's characters have been thinking about for as long as he's been writing A Song of Ice and Fire. And it's, you know, it is interesting to me. I am curious...

I'm curious, though, the Visenya thing, which you have been, you know, flagging all season, is so interesting to me for them to say, for anyone to say that, like, women aren't part of battle or whatever in the Targaryen family. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Is bizarre when these women, you know, Visenya...

You know, especially, but like these Targaryen women have been warriors. Yeah. In the history. Yeah. Warriors and like, you know, you've noted before Jaehaerys and the good Queen Alysanne, that Alysanne was like as active a guiding hand during that reign. She was the co-regent. Yeah. And so I like that Rhaenyra...

is trying to connect to that aspect of her history. And, you know, it was interesting, the path I walk has never been trod line to Misaria. Like, as she's staring at that dragon skull...

To carry both of those truths inside of her at once, to be thinking about Visenya, to be thinking about a sword and a rider and a warrior who was as impactful and consequential as Aegon the Conqueror was himself during the conquest. And then also in tandem with that to be able to say, but the exact thing I'm trying to do.

Yes. Has never been possible. Has never been possible before. We had Alysanne, who was, I said co-regent, co-ruler, essentially. We had a queen regent before that, but we have never had just a queen with her king consort. It's why Damon's like, should we workshop these titles? Yeah. I've got some thoughts on the titles. Yeah. Do we need that last bit? The consort bit? Speaking of putting a spin on things, workshopping ideas, Massaria...

has a positive spin to put on the blunder from the Greens. Kristen made a mistake. The people see an ill omen, is how Massaria puts it, and describes to Rhaenyra the dire straits that we have glimpsed in King's Landing. Their fear of this portent, the impact of the blockade. Rhaenyra's response is,

Is that going to help me tear down stone and break shields? And Massaria knows that the answer to that question definitively without doubt can be yes. Steve, let's hear this. Do not underestimate your subjects. They are a thousand thousand living in the shadow of the Red Keep and forgotten for too long. And you think they will turn to me? To the discontented? Rumors are feed. Your Grace, what you cannot do...

Let others do for you. There is more than one way to fight a war. So what do you make of this? We have the mirror to Damon's let others do for you. Yeah. We have Masaria's ongoing focus on the small folk. Yeah.

whisper campaign. We see Elinda head out, you know, in the Red Hood and make her way eventually to Diana. What I love about this is that, yeah, we see Elinda roll out, but Massaria clearly already has contacts. She's got her ears on the ground already of what's happening in King's Landing. So she's got a whisper network already in effect, which is great. And I love that we see Elinda and her Red Hood go out and

Diana, who we saw at the tavern, who was, you know, the young woman who was sexually assaulted by Aegon the King, who is now Gu. And at least one gold cloak, right, is in Mysaria's, you know, pocket. And so, or owes her. And so... Right, a debt mentioned, yeah. I love this. Yeah. I love wondering...

How long Diana has been working for Miss Aria. I love wondering how long Alinda, if Alinda has been, if her working relationship with Miss Aria predates, you know, this current, I floated that on Talk of Thrones, but I kind of like this idea. You pointed out that usually, like, Alinda Massey is like a highborn lady. She's not like, you know, Diana. She's not like, you know, she's not a Talia. But like...

I kind of like this idea that Miss Aria got to her, got to Alinda, you know, was just sort of like, be my eyes and ears. And especially, we're drawing a comp between the let others do for you parallel to demon, but that then is such a

delicious contrast. Misaria waiting. Oh, yeah. Patiently. Oh, she's been cultivating these relationships. Building that fire carefully so that it will last. And Damon just going for the quick ignition that will one gust of wind. Want to commit a bunch of atrocities? Not in my name, but you know. I know which one of them is going to win the fire making challenge in Survivor. And it's not Damon. I know what that means. Despite him being a dragon rider. I know.

On the Masaria small folk front, you know, because we've chatted many times before about how some of those moments were not successful in season one, like her just making this big pitch to Otto in episode nine. I think she learned from it. This is where I am with it now, too. The adjustment that she's made, but also then now if we look at the long, not only like her...

and her campaigns, but the personal relationships inside of these larger quests, like she and Rhaenyra once again discuss Daemon here, and they obviously both have relationships with him. And so if we think back to the moment where she challenged him on Dragonstone after the fake marriage stolen egg bit... I don't... I choose not to remember that.

No, but now that's a scene that is improved in my estimation because accent watch aside, when she said to Damon, I didn't come into your service wanting gold or power or station. I came to you to be liberated. Liberated from what? Fear. We have an understanding of how, even though there's a ton we don't know about her history still, her personal relationship to fear is...

To feeling like a part of this game that the High Lords play has influenced her view not only on her own future and allegiances, why she picked Rhaenyra. I think it's why the throat scar is so evocative. Yes. And you're still on, I don't want to know, corner. Of what happened there? Yeah, yeah. Yeah, I don't think we need to know specifics. I like it. I like it. Anything else on Elinda and Diana? We're not going to come back to that later. So anything else that you want to hit here in terms of? I'm just excited to see what these babes get up to on King's Landing. Me too. Me too. Me too.

Rhaenyra and Bela. A quiet moment to remember Rhaenys. This was a lovely little scene. And I think it was so important not just to like set up the Corlys and Bela conversation, but also to underline that thing that Bela says later to Corlys, which is like, she wasn't just your wife to lose. Again, it's similar to like, I would like to see Alicent talk to her brother when he comes back from Rook's Rest. I,

I really wanted someone to talk to Bela about what it meant for Renise to not be there anymore. Yeah. Because she was not just her granddaughter, but like her ward. Her ward, yeah. You know? Yeah, the closeness there. This is like her mother, in effect. Yeah. And so I just love that moment of...

A mothering from Rhaenyra, who is doing such a better job of being a parent to those girls. Well, you can argue about Rhaena. Then Daemon has been to the strong boys. Was really glad for ghost dream Laena to show up later. Your daughter? Checked in on our kids? No? No? Just dreaming about fucking your mom? Okay. Yeah, and this is... This scene...

was a really great one for showing us how, reminding us of the challenges that are near our faces. I have challenges enough. I'm not sure if you've heard of it, challenges enough. But the way that she is able to navigate the different things that are required of her. She actually does have to

deploy Bela here, but also reminisce and show a tenderness. And I really liked how this scene captured something that felt true to life where like you're mourning and you're grieving and you're working through your loss and then you sit down and you don't just talk about how you're sad. You talk about the happy memories, like the memories of strength when you got to see somebody do something great. And not only is that an effective way to like mention Alyssa Targaryen right before we see Daemon fucking her in his dreams, but

It helps us understand how, like, Renice's impact would be felt by both of those women in her orbit. And also how her legend will stay alive beyond this, which was really cool. And the line where she says you are very like her in some ways really hit me, especially in such close proximity to the Alyssa Damon scene. Because this idea of, like, the stories we tell about people after they're gone and the ways in which –

you know, younger generations in the family are told, oh, you're like, you're just like her or you remind me of her in some way. And we know that that is something that Damon has heard about his own mother. Yes. That Damon was told Alyssa's stories, you know, he was either three or four when she died. So like told Alyssa's stories and told that he was like her. Yeah. And this is the gift that Rainier is giving Baylor right now. I love that. That's beautiful. And I really love too the moment where

Bela said, I wished I had known her when she was young because we've had a lot of moments in the series so far where we were on one extreme or the other. Aegon is casting Otto out because he's fucking old. He's out of touch. He's writing letters. I want to spill blood, not ink. Or the opposite, where the seasoned members of our story are

Renice is going to set that note, balls full of seed, fists full of steel, the hot blood. And this felt like a really important recognition of the fact that it doesn't always have to be that way, where a character like Bela could simultaneously hear that from Rhaenyra, accept that gift from her of that line and that exchange. Yeah.

Say, I wish I had known her because she wants to – she wants more proximity and access to that time in her life. Not because it means she doesn't understand something about her or Renise felt out of touch. Because she's actually, like, longing for a deeper sense of who she was and how they're alike. I thought that was, like, really lovely. Really lovely. And then this is where we get the handing of the pin. Mm-hmm.

And the I do not wish to stand alone moment for Rhaenyra, which felt huge and like something that like a lot of characters who are struggling would not be able to say out loud, would not be able to arrive at that moment where they can say, I actually do need help. I can't do this on my own. Yeah. And I think it's interesting to think about coalitions versus not, you know, like Jace is an important part of Rhaenyra's coalition versus like, what does Aemond have? Yeah.

Yeah. People who are afraid of him. Had Sylvie, but no longer. One whore is as good as any other. Yike. Sad. Speaking of sex. Okay, good. I was like, how are you going to segue that? Be respectful of Alyssa Targaryen, please. Folks, we are delighted to say that Alyssa Targaryen is in the story, but we do regret to inform you that Daemon is dreaming that he's eaten out his own mom. Wild stuff here in episode five of season two of House of the Dragon. Quite tough. My goodness. Daemon,

He's not alone either, Jo. You know, we've been talking about this isolation, but no. He's wrapped around mom, naked and entwined in his dream. We're going to talk about all of this, but before we do, let's just hear this dream sequence. Damon. Damon. You were always the strong one. The finest swordsman. No. The fearless dragon rider. No.

Your brother had great love in his heart. But he lacked your constitution. Viserys wasn't suited for the crown. But you, Daemon, you were made to wear it. Pretty. Oh my god. If only you'd been born first, my favorite son. Normal stuff. Why'd you make us sit through that fully? Every second felt important. And it was. Yeah.

Okay, so we're going to talk about what this means, but before we do, let's talk about who this is, Damon's mom, Melissa Targaryen. Joe! Okay, I think first and foremost, I, okay, so book readers will say... First and foremost, Damon's dreaming he's fucking his mom. Anything else is second. You've already said that nine times, so I think we covered it. Have we? Melissa's mom.

book readers will say, will cry, this is not what Alyssa Targaryen looks like. And I actually think that's kind of the point. Oh, yeah. But she's described in the books as with a dirty blonde tangle of hair with no hint of silver, mismatched eyes, one violet, the other green, her ears too big, her smile lopsided, a whack across the face from a wooden sword broke her nose, it healed crooked, right? So she is like a scrappy, uh,

You know, tomboy. Yes. Like, unusual beauty. That being said, she and her brother. Balon. Balon. Those siblings really loved the shit out of each other. They loved the shit out of each other. They loved each other. Since they were children. The Targs. They love each other. I think I, the one note I would have, so I think it's interesting that he's like, instead of a dirty blonde with a broken nose and...

To be fair, we don't know that he didn't see a dirty blonde tangle with no hint of silver anywhere. Okay, cool. But I know, but okay, cool. I think that...

The mismatched eyes, I kind of wish they had kept because that's something he definitely would have been told about. Yes. And it's as easy as popping a contact in. But I think that him remembering her, because he has no way of knowing exactly what she looked like because he was three or four when she died, and they don't have photo albums, as this like...

Targaryen supremacist wet dream is like very appropriate. Wonderful stuff. A dragon rider. Love to ride. Love to ride. Love to ride dragons. Love to ride her husband brother. Uh-huh. Want to read anything?

passages that definitely didn't scar Chris Ryan for life when you heard them on Talk the Throats? I mean, first we should say, so she took the kids flying when they were like days old. She just wrapped them to her chest. The Saris and Damon. The two kids that she had that made it. R.I.P. And she flew around on mailies with them when they were mere babes.

Viserys, like, by the way, loved this, which is, like, so odd that he, like, didn't like Dragonriding later. Doesn't it break your heart to read that passage? Yeah. And then, yeah, this is what happened when she claimed her dragon when she was 15. I think got married also when she was 15. Quite a year for her, right? And this is...

This is what happens. Quote, the bride's sounds of pleasure could be heard all the way to Duskendale. Alyssa Targaryen was as body a wench as any... And now we know how far that is, folks. I know, exactly. That's why I thought it was an important detail to add. You didn't have the full quote. I put Duskendale in there. Alyssa Targaryen was as body a wench as any barmaid in King's Landing, as she herself was fond of boasting. I mounted him and took him for a ride, she declared the morning after the bedding, and I mean to do the same tonight.

I love to ride. And this is not just the wedding night, though, because years later in their marriage, quote, the same shrieks of pleasure that had echoed through the halls of the Red Keep on the night of their bedding were heard many of another night in the years that followed. These two, like Corliss and Rainey's, had a rockin' sex life.

This is part of why we talked about this at the time, but now we have this, the Alyssa perspective to add to it, where when we heard Ulf's boast, and who knows about being Balon, like a lot of book readers were like, Balon the brave. I mean, shout out, shout out to our listener Sam, who sent like a really long email that was all about how much Alyssa and Balon were obsessed with each other. Our colleague Riley McAtee has been very hung up on like, would Balon fuck another woman? So it's, I mean, Alyssa, she's.

I mean, she did die. Balon lived for 17 years after Alyssa died. So that's just... Anyway, and she died, we should say, in childbirth. Well, soon after... Yeah, the effects. The third, you know, son that she was trying to give. And, like, Balon's, like...

She's like, this is what I do. You do battle. I do this. I give you babies. She's like, let's have a ton of babies. And like Emma, she died. So when you see Damon in that dream with blood on his hand...

And by the way, again, I'm going to shout out our friend of the Potashaya over history, Westeros. She's the one who pointed out that there's always blood on one hand. It's not on both hands. It's on one hand, and it's the hand he used to choke Rhaenyra. Incredible observation there. Iconic stuff from a Shaya, as per usual. And that's a help—really actually feels like a crucial detail for us to be—

holding onto him or processing what Damon is working through and the way that his, like, shame for what he did is influencing what he's parsing. Because he's got various, like, Lena, that's not really his fault, but I'm sure we could figure out how to make it his fault. Harris is definitely his fault. All the stuff that Rhaenyra has to deal with. His mom is not, you know, she didn't die giving birth to him. Right. But, like, you know. So this one feels more about

A lot of people are telling me how I fucked up. And I would like my mom to tell me that I'm the special golden boy. From Matt Smith in this sequence. Such a good boy. Yeah, you're doing great down there. Such a good boy. God's a big good boy.

The look on Matt Smith's face, because we cut in and out of these very intimate moments, and just like him in an almost stupor of jubilation as his mother is telling him that he was the strong one and the one who was worthy of the crown. But the final look, what I really loved about this is like, yes, he's like, this is the best. Love to fuck my mom. Extremely hot Targaryen woman, who is my mom. Yeah.

is telling me I'm the best and we're having great sex and it's wonderful. Suck it, Rhaenyra. I'm great. I'm so good. Damon, generous lover, at least in his dreams. Nice to see.

But the fact that at the very end, he's like, oh, wait, it's my mom was sort of how I interpreted his look on his face. And I've never had a dream like this. But like, but we all have those experiences in a dream where you're like, this is fine. This is great. This is normal. And then you wake up and you're like, wait, that was what I was dreaming about. Yeah. My favorite son hit him.

It hit him. He was like, oh, no. Do you have any thoughts on Oedipus Rex or Freudian? I did look up. Yeah. I told you that I would spend some time with Freud. Anything you'd like to share from Oedipus or Freud?

most of Freud's theories have been wildly like debunked and rejected by the psychiatry community. But there is this idea that like to dream of having sex with a parent, which is, I guess, a fairly common dream. Yike, on bikes. Fairly common? Yeah. Is to dream of like

Well, and so. Which is exactly what we have here. Yes. The not only like we I was thinking back to the now in hindsight, very prescient mailbag question that we got about Damon's love language and Raniere's love language. And we talked about words of affirmation. And so to feel how true that is for him, how desperately he needs that, especially because the other people in his life are there. You're pathetic.

Raniero tells Alfred later, like, I'd tell Damon I'd like to continue our last conversation. Well, that was how it ended. Yeah. So what feels better? Your wife slash niece telling you you're pathetic? Explaining to you quite clearly how you have brought about the ruin of her campaign? Yeah. Or your mother? Fearless dragon rider. Yeah.

I'm telling you what an expert swordsman you are. Indeed. We should say, by the way, that even for the Targaryens. Oh, yeah, this is verbose. Mother and son. This is a no. No. Even the Targaryens. This is a no. Would be upset by this. There's possibly like one example of this. But for the most part, this is like. And I love that. That like the writers, in order to find something really edgy for something for David to dream about, had to get like. They're like, well, what's.

What is left that is taboo? Oh, man. Yeah, I... This was great. Yeah. Viserys' words about Alyssa in season one on your mind here? Yeah, of course. He knew. You were always Mother's favorite. It's no great mystery. You were. Our mother, she had no regard for customer tradition rules, and I, sadly, was no great warrior. Are you... Sorry, just really quickly. It's just been on my mind since I first saw this. Oh, gosh. No, no.

This is very innocent. Do you know who the Smothers Brothers are? Mm-hmm. You do? They're like a comedy act from the 1960s. My dad was obsessed with them. One of their most recurring bits was, Mother always did you best. And I've just been thinking about that. Any incest humor? Not that I know of, but I mean, perhaps it's worth going back and taking a listen to the Smothers Brothers. Yeah.

comedy routines mother always did like you best is definitely what the energy of viserys is bringing there um love when something comes up from the archives whether it's mother's brothers or a goose duck callback cutting right from this dream to simon penetrating from reality different kind of penetration what we got in david's dream uh to the the meat damon says he doesn't have an appetite for any of it ate enough a mom what do you think gross so the i'm so sorry you're not

The callback you're mentioning is that when Rhaenyra and Laenor were meant to be engaged and they're taking a stroll on the beach and she's like, I think you are gay and that's okay. And we'll just figure it out and it'll be fine. Yes. And it really would have been if it hadn't been for those medals in Hightower. You know, it made me really sad thinking that Rhaenys died without learning that

Laenor was alive. That was brutal. But then this call back to Laenor and thinking of how he lives on in Morway. Morway's the one that was nice. Fixer up or Harrenhal? Simon wants to know if Daemon... The money pit that is Harrenhal. Yeah, is gonna get the queen to fork over the coin for this...

shortly, a heedless and inane pursuit. And Damon says, Joe, he's going to guarantee the payment himself. Doesn't want to ask. Rhaenyra does, if I am supplicant to my husband. Damon, I'm not going to ask Rhaenyra for a coin at this point in the story, at least. At this point in the episode, they both refuse to reach out to the other. And I think what's most important about this, not just like, I don't need the approval of the queen, which, you know, again, Alice will sort of poke at this bruise a little later on. But like,

Is Simon sort of dwindling patience with Damon? Yeah. Loved the adjacency of, get up, get up, get up, get up with the grandsons to try to appeal to Damon's ego still. But then he almost can't help himself from like, but you're the prince. What do you mean? Call you the king. Yeah, actually, that consort is important. Anything on that titles exchange that struck you? Because, you know, we're only a couple episodes removed from Damon saying,

It's not my prince, it's your grace. And now your grace isn't sufficient, right? We keep escalating. I want to return to this. I won't come back to this. Okay. Exciting. Green Council.

Boy, is there some side eye in this scene. This is an incredible Allison scene. This was, in terms of just the filmmaking in the episode, one of the more interesting sequences because of the rush of the buzz that Allison is hearing as we glimpse all those little other conversations about ruling. I thought a lot of this episode was heavy-handed. And even stuff that people kind of liked, like the...

Raniera and Damon like leaning on the fireplace mirror shot I thought was a little like I don't know felt a little gimmicky this really worked for me yeah the sound dropping out and just focusing on Olivia Cooke's face as Allison's like watches every single grain of power that she's scrabbled and strange to prove for herself and

Just leave her. Right. She let a moldering corpse fuck her for years and years and years. She showed her feet off to some guy. For what? And none of it matters. For what? Great lesson, ladies. Yeah. Indeed. Right. In all of King's Landing, is there no one to take my side? And she finds herself in this moment making her pitch to rule and realizes that the answer is no. Or while, to his credit, does say no.

She's got the experience that we need, actually, but everybody else. We expect Iron Rod to come in and be a dick. This is what I said. I said Orwild is the... This was a good... Orwild up again in my esteem after some questionable moments during the kill. I wanted more out of him then, but it's nice to see, you know, we learn from our mistakes. We do. We expect Iron Rod to say, yeah, you did fine in a time of peace, but, like, this is war, and give us that comp to the way that Alfred is behaving over on the Black Council. But Lara's saying...

It must be Prince Eamon. What would it say if in response to Rhaenyra's crowning, we raised up a woman of our own? Hits us. We feel Alicent's pain in that moment. Criston, who can't meet anyone's eye because of his shame. But I did love Larys being like, the hand? He's like, your new boyfriend? What does your new boyfriend have to say about this? The hand speaks with the king's voice. Like, do you have any thoughts, Criston? No, you can't meet our eye, but will you chime in at all? Also, it was just impossible.

I loved the fact that no one, and of course, but no one suggests that Kristen, the hand of the king, step in. Right. Whereas, like, you know, Ned is Robert's hand. Like, Ned, you're up, right? Without question if Otto had been here still. Oh, yeah. He is immediately stepping in as regent. There's no doubt. But nobody thinks of Kristen that way. The thing about what Laris says here, of course, Kristen says, no.

Amos X's line, it must be him. He obviously doesn't feel great about that, but he does say it. With what Laris says, that we—what would it say if we raised up a woman of our own and we can feel as that rush of sound is coming in on Allison, we don't leave. The camera stays on her the entire time that business is then being conducted, is that she has to confront the fact that while it feels horrible—

And it is like the follow through on what Renise asked her in the penultimate episode last season. Like, have you never imagined yourself on the Iron Throne? And now we know she has. How's that window looking in your prison? Yeah. That scene just so good. She played an active part in bringing about the circumstance that she now deeply, deeply, deeply resents. Yeah.

They can't have a woman rule because then the entire argument for taking the throne from Rhaenyra crumbles. And she helped ensure that.

That she can't do the things she wants to do and live her life the way that she wants to live. Well, if it isn't the consequences of my own actions. No, like totally. So effective. I thought it was incredibly good. And what I loved about this, and this will come back later when we talk about Damon a bit more, is how complicated our feelings are for her.

for Allison in this moment, right? Yes. We are all of us. You don't have to be a woman to feel what it is to just be cut out of something that you have worked very hard for and to be talked around and talked down to and diminished the way that she is. So watching Olivia Cooke's face and like, I mean, for me, I will project and say if it were me, I would be trying so hard not to cry. Right.

Oh, for sure. At that table. Same. I would just be like, it would just take every shred in me not to burst into tears at that moment. Not to show them how they made you feel. Exactly. So for the sound to cut out, for her to just focus on...

Keeping it together until she left the room, that is so relatable. And at the same time, we can all be like, you made this goddamn bed for yourself, Allison. Absolutely. And that is what is so beautiful about this show or the gray area characters that George R.R. Martin likes to explore, where you can feel empathy and derision for a character in the same breath. Yeah, absolutely. It's exquisite. In equal measure. Yeah. It is fantastic. This was riveting to watch. I loved it. And the way that we feel her...

Almost active fear of Aemond. And he is the quiet counterpart, right? He sits there in silence as they recommend him. And then he reaches over for that ball and he takes a seat and then he immediately launches into and it's closed the gates and we see her horror, right? Oh my God, look what will happen to the city in his hands. Mm-hmm.

But what's the first thing he does? Like, after the close the gates, cut down the rat catchers. Undo the thing that my idiot brother did. Cut down the fucking rat catchers. We see right away what kind of active... He's not going to ever have a moment where he is allowed... Allows himself to be in a position where he has to say to somebody what Egon said, which is like, they don't take me seriously. They don't listen. They don't care what I think. What would you have me do? What would you have me do? What would you have me do? And he's...

He's calling out Laris for the loss of Harrenhal. Yep. And he is talking to Tyland about Jason Lannister, who we'll talk about a little bit later on. Yeah. Right? But he's just sort of like, business, business, business. Here, let me tick down the list. Yes. I got agenda items for days. No hesitation, which is what we were expecting based on fire and blood. You must rule the realm now until your brother is strong enough to take the crown again, the king's hand told Prince Aemond. Nor did Ser Criston need to say it twice. Right?

Writes Eustace. I've always loved that line, nor did Sir Criston need to say it twice. And so one-eyed Aemon, the kinslayer, took up the iron and ruby crown of Aegon the Conqueror. It looks better on me than it ever did on him, the prince proclaimed.

That line from the book was on our minds when in episode nine last season we heard Aemon say, I am next in line to the throne. Should they come looking for me, I intend to be found. Now, they were never going to make a two-year-old regent, but this is one more clarifying moment for us where it's like, right, Maelor didn't make the show because he needs to just be the heir. Yeah. I have more questions. Aemon, Daemon, brotherly heirs to kings they thought they'd be better than?

Right. I mean, I think it's clear the comps that they're trying to make here. Anything else on this scene, Jo? Rhaenyra's line later to Mysaria or earlier later elsewhere where she says they speak around me but not to me is, you know, very much identical to what is happening to Alyson here. I was also reminded in Alyson's absolute like

gobsmackitude about what's happening to her it reminded me so much of Tywin telling Cersei that she has to marry Loras and Cersei's like I have orchestrated all of this shit I have gotten Joffrey my incest baby on the throne and now you're here to treat me like I'm a pawn a broodmare yeah you know what I mean like are you fucking kidding me

I have been in charge and now all I'm good for is to be married off to Loras.

Great call. And to your point from a few moments ago about how we can kind of hold and appreciate this duality in our minds, you can have the Taiwan, like, you're not as smart as you think you are reply, and then you can build towards Cersei being able to say to him, all your obsession with legacy, you never even knew what was going on in your own family, and for all of that to feel... True. True. I mean, that's what... It's one of the many reasons why I love Cersei, because, like, I...

Because I could feel for her often and then also absolutely hate her. Yes. That's the joy of Cersei. We're going to combine, Jo, a couple scenes into our just a brief little interlude here with Hugh and the small folk because we go back home with Hugh yet again with his wife, Kat, and their increasingly, like, gray child who seems, like, barely alive. Oh, my God.

rough yes rough and cat is calling out hugh you're waiting on this promise from the king it's horseshit why can't you see it's horseshit ghosts with them you can feed the mouths of ghosts and so they're like okay time to go to tumbledon yes he doesn't want to be a beggar beg her brother to house them but she's like let's be smart let's get out and then lock the gates

Interesting to see a member of the Gold Cloaks announce during the closing of the gates, by order of Aemon Targaryen, Prince Regent and Protector of the Realm, and the way the people respond to that. Like, did they say Aemon? What about Aegon? What happened to the king? And how, again, like a move that is meant to establish some sort of control and order just incites more panic in the throng there. The throng, by the way, that is just screaming for meat. I hope they got...

I don't want them to have Mayles' skull, but I hope they got it, like, into the catacombs. Keep it away from the hungry masses. My God. Back to Allison. We only left her for a moment. It's time to head to the courtyard for this scene with Kristen. And she's his dog.

I need this dog to find his way to a loving home. The fact that he has been sitting there for weeks under Cheese's rotting corpse is so upsetting to me. Maybe Darren can come adopt a boy and his dog. So I have to wait until season three to meet Darren, to Sarion, and to see this sweet little pup find a good home? Yeah.

All right. I mean, it's better than him not finding a new home. You know what? Actually, I kind of want Ulf to adopt him. Now, this is... This is... Yes! That's the stuff. This is the stuff. This is the stuff, Lionel. This is the stuff, Lionel! Ulf and a little dog? Yeah. A pub dog? Yeah.

And he would treat him so well. He would treat him so well. He would make sure he had lots of pets from pals over. He would treat him all kind of like teach him all kind of tricks. I do think he'd let him drink ale though which is maybe not great. Like a little bit. A little bit. A little bit.

Okay, this scene ruled. This is fantastic. And this goes back to what I was just saying about Alicent, and I'm going to say it now about Kristen. Yeah. Which is just sort of like, I have... Look into the camera and apologize. I'm not apologizing. I have hated Kristen. Yes. Oh, yes. For a very long time. Because they didn't give his character much dimensionality, right? And we would occasionally hear from listeners who would be like, well...

Don't you feel for him because he's lower born than the people around him or the gods he's Dornish sort of racially tinged stuff around him? And it's like, I want to feel. Gideon consent. I want to feel that story. I really want to feel that story. And I wasn't feeling it because I was just like, he's just so toxic. And then to have him here.

Be humbled by what he saw. Yeah. And express that. The fear. Yeah. The, like, I don't know who I, like, the admission of frailty, which is something I've been, like, lurking for from him. Right. Was so key to me all of a sudden being, like, locked into Kristen Cole. I'm not, like, I'm still. You're rooting for him? I'm not. You care about him? I'm not. You need him to win? I don't.

I find him so much more interesting than I did two weeks ago. This is a great scene. Let's hear the meat of this conversation and then let's talk about a little bit more why we loved it so much. What did you see? Their armor melted. There were men walking. They were on fire. We have given the war to the dragons. The dragon riders should lead us. And what of justice? Of temperance? Or is strength now to be our only god? So you cast me aside. Have I not spared you? What we must do now is...

Terrible. Will you preside over it? Is this who you are, Alyssa? You did not ask to be spared. And I did not give you leave to speak my name. Holy shit. This is incredible. First of all, just incredible work from both Olivia and Fabian here. The intimacy...

The history that they have and then the intimate aspect of their relationship and how that informs this. We have the, like, humor leading into that exchange of, has your loyalty faded or does it flourish only at night and flee the sunrise like a moth? Which is clearly...

But also it really registers because you would think if you were Alicent and we would think watching this, right, you're only by my side when we're fucking at night. And like the way that that kind of history could be further complicate why you felt somebody betrayed you. Totally. But it is, I mean, and here's where I will take Kristen's part in this. Yeah. Like it's a double standard of Alicent who treated him like dog shit every time they left her room. Absolutely.

Yeah, and that's why I thought, I did not give you leave to speak my name. And the way his head hangs after that was so effective because it's an even more personal thing.

of the Gawain getting a scent line and the way that people are always making him, reminding him that he doesn't belong in their world. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Like, it was just brutal. Yeah. And then you have the PTSD from the battle waking to this changed world. Now, a world that he helped to change, which is also amplifying his feeling here. Yeah, similar to Alicent. Absolutely. You made this bed. Yeah. Confronting what you brought into the world, right? Reaping what you helped to sow. Yeah.

That, what of justice of temperance phrasing? Did this make you think of? Where's duty? She used the exact same cadence. Where's duty? Where's sacrifice? The rhythm of it. Yeah. For some reason, this brought up this like Stannis quote from A Clash of Kings.

um when she says what a justice of temperance and stannis says in that book in king's landing the high septum would prattle at me of how all justice and goodness flows from the seven but all i ever saw of either was made by men this idea that like again allison cloaks herself in religiosity when like yeah they whether it's a flaw of the show or the character i'm not sure but like

I would like to know more about, like, what the church's teachings are in this. You know what I mean? She's, like, she has her crucifix, which is actually a seven-pointed star. And she has her, like, you know, aphorisms that she says or whatever. But I would just like to know more. Like, yeah. A hard look for all of us. But you know what I mean? Like, it just seems so empty. Her piety. And, yeah. Yeah. The...

The one access point we have to the depth of her connection to that is the sept and when we see her pray because that's about...

building a bridge to the past and establishing a sense of connection to people she's lost but that's that's a personal connection to spirituality and i just like i'm curious about the institution at this given time i mean especially you know she's a high tower but she's part of this targaryen reign now and the history between the faith and the targaryens is so loaded and evolves ruler to ruler that's a that's a great shout out the sparing

Kristen thinking he's sparing her. Allison thinking, I don't want to be spared. Saying I don't want to be spared. Obviously another Rhaenyra comp here. Yeah. I don't want to. Stop saying you're protecting me. Coddled princely. I don't want to be kept on the sidelines. I thought the voice break on what we must do now is terrible was quite good. Their armor melted actually got me more for some reason.

Just because he's like, this is the thing I understand, which is war and battle and armor and all of this. And to see that it just melts. It's just nothing. It's just goo in the face of this dragon battle. Then like, what are we even doing here? Right. This is my life. This is my uniform. This is my mission. This is my purpose. My cloak of purity. I'm your sworn shield. These are the things I...

how I find understanding and meaning and purpose in my life. And sometimes that's true and for him pure. And sometimes it's a way to like justify the things that he does to other people or something that he will project onto other people like the Eric scene. But it is the defining center of his experience. And for that to be... It melted. Turned to ash in front of him. Well, then what mooring? Like what...

how would you orient yourself in your own life after that? Then he's just had to give it, then he's just decided to give it over to Eamon. Right. I don't trust this person. I know what this person is capable of, but yeah, I have to say out loud, he should be the one to lead us because how could anybody else make their way through this world? I liked too how before the clip we heard that idea of like the order of things came back into play. Like that's how Kristen justifies why Eamon should be the one that is the order of things. And that like specific language was at the heart of that great,

Rhaenyra and Rhaenys conversation in season one, episode two, right? And when the boy comes of age and your father has passed, the men of the realm will expect him to be heir, not you, because that is the order of things. When I am a queen, I will create a new order. And we talked a lot at the time about, like, the break-the-wheel comps. Yeah. But what we're seeing here is, like, for everybody, not just Rhaenyra...

How can you seek to make a new order when the world is on fire around you? That's the only new order that there can be. The old order. I just love that he's clinging to...

sort of this functionary role. He's there with his little book supervising the cutting down of the rat catchers personally. He's just got his little like, his little like Hand of the King like little notebook and he's just sort of become a civil servant, a functionary, you know what I mean? When he was this like great warrior, but he's just sort of like that's not, I don't know, not even part of that anymore. Interesting too for him to have to immediately return to that because that was the thing he sought to flee. Right. Just to

Before Rook's rest, like I am sitting down once in this hand at the king chair and I need to get out of here. Deeply uncomfortable. I need to get out of here. I need to be back in the circumstance that I'm familiar with. And now he's like, never mind. Give me the notebook. I'll do the spreadsheets. It's fine. It's fine. You think he's an Excel guy or a Google Sheets guy? Oh, this guy is an Excel guy. Yeah, I think so too. Joanna, it is time to go to the twins.

a chill place where bad things never happen. I got a little bread and a little salt for you. Is that fine? I will say that seeing a plate of food, seeing guest rights in the middle of that table, it was such a trigger. What about the twins in proximity to someone locking any kind of gate? Very tough. What was your primary association? Were you like, let me see if there are any fingernails in the offering there? Any free pie action? What did you bring to this most of all?

Just pride in Jace. Yeah, same. For his diplomacy. And delight in seeing Vermax? Yes. Sweet, beautiful Vermax? So chic. He was such a little baby when we last saw him. Uh...

The line of the book here, near-ish this moment, is, it was Jace who came to the fore now. And I just sort of, like, love that as, like, because we're going to get Jace and Rhaenyra at the end of the episode talking about, like, what next with all these dragons we have. But also, like, Jace and his pommel, sort of. Yeah.

Nabbing the twins, the crossing for Rhaenyra. Love it. Absolutely huge. Again, the Vale, the North, the crossing, it's an incredibly impressive CV that Jace is building. And it's not like this was instant. He had to work for it. The Freys, they have a question and a concern that other characters, including in this very location, have weighed before, which is my liege lord.

the ruler in King's Landing? What if they don't want the same thing? And so when we're hearing Forest Frey and Jace have this conversation, we're thinking back to Walder and Kat when they are trying to secure the crossing to hopefully make it to Ned in time back in season one, which leads to all sorts of things. Rob's marriage backed, et cetera. I hope it was a very beautiful bridge. Honestly, it is.

We can see it is a very beautiful bridge, Joe. But we call back to that moment. You swore an oath to my father. Oh, yes, I said some words. But then I swore those to the crown, too, if I remember right. And so that tension, the dance is a ripe stretch of the story to explore that idea. Well, what if...

The paramount of your region wants one thing or hasn't made a decision at all. And the crown wants another. What if there are two people vying for the crown? What if the various lords of the Riverlands can't get on the same page? What decision are you supposed to make? And so what do the Freys do? They pursue their own advantage. We're afraid of Aegar. What's in it for us?

You're going to protect us with your dragon? You are? You're going to offer up Damon too? Is he going to listen? Your mom's going to make him? The way that all parties in that scene were thinking about how to leave that moment with the thing they need was fascinating to watch. What else did the initial so many vows they make you swear and swear conversation ping for you?

Couple things. Forrest mentions that winter is coming. He doesn't say it in so many words, but he says the winds are rising, you know? Yeah. Which is a very Riverlands way of saying winter is coming. And then...

Jason Lannister gets another mention. He was mentioned in the small council scene. He's mentioned here again. And we've gotten mentions all season about the Lannister forces amassing. Yes. We've questioned about timelines and how long it takes to amass forces when like all other things are happening around them. But anyway. Yeah. Jason Lannister and his forces are amassing in the West. We've got our eyeballs on Craig Stark's promised Greybeards coming from the North. And Jane Arryn's potential Knights of the Vale. Yeah.

Also north of the Riverlands. Right. And then whatever fucking mess Damon has made of the various river lords in the meantime. Boy. All of this stuff is sort of converging. Yes. Into one very rivery place. Yes. Quite helpful that you ran through the map earlier in the season.

Exciting stuff. I think it's interesting. I think it's wild that we haven't checked in with Jason since we keep hearing about him. Yeah. Like, I think that's really weird that we're on episode five and if Jason and the Lannisters have a role to play in this season. Yeah. Well, we've seen the Lannister soldiers in the trailers. We see them in the trailer for next week. So hopefully we'll be with them at last for more than a moment. But who can say? Spend some time with Jason. Who can say? And then we've got Forrest Frey and Sabathafrey. And these are two characters from the books. Yep.

We do have some questions about this Sabathafray. Both of them actually are quite different from the sort of more warrior-esque versions that they are in the book. Sabathafray specifically, I think fans of Sabathafray have some questions about how this depiction aligns with the Sabathafray. There was some...

Pre-season sort of casting news that this character was called Lady Serena, it's unclear, actually. I feel some question marks around whether or not this is actually Sabbath Frey or if we're going to meet another character in season three who's Sabbath Frey. Right. But that's all I'm prepared to say vaguely about it until... Which they've done with, like, other houses, including the Blackwoods and the Brackens. Like, here's another Blackwood for you to spend some time with who's different from the one you knew. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Very interesting. Yeah.

The fray pursuit of Harrenhal. This was something that Chris was kind of confounded by. What do you want to say about this for other viewers who might also be like, why does everybody want this heap of shit? And what do you want to say about that in terms of just the lore that Harrenhal, the pull that Harrenhal holds for people more broadly, but also like for the frays? Yeah. Why a status symbol of that sort would be desirable? I'm so glad you asked me. Harrenhal is the epitome of- Fray scholar. Long time fray scholar. Harrenhal is the epitome of I can fix this.

In that sense, no better place for Damon to be, really. It's a nightmare for everyone, but not for me. It'll be just a status symbol. The Freys are always feeling inferior to other Riverlords and always sort of

grasping for status. This is certainly true of Walder Frey. And so this idea that like, yeah, the twins are nice, but Harrenhal would be better and bigger. And what if you had fucking both? Yeah. What would they say to you then? Oh, they'd bend the knee to you. You know what I mean? So like, I think everyone wants Harrenhal despite its incredible Money Pit DIY status because it's the biggest

It's the biggest castle. Vast lands, like the status symbol of just being the one in that seat. And also the hubris of all these characters. Like, the fact that nobody is fazed by the curse and the doom that has befallen so many who have walked under that gate feels right. Yeah. Not for me. Yeah. It'll be fine for me. It definitely will be fine for me. And I'm certain that nobody else who walked in there before ever thought that. Oh, I'm fine.

On the Jace Swagger scale, where did the, okay, you want Harrenhal, we're going to need something more, what do you need? Stand up, pour my wine, and then say bent knees. Bent knees. Rank for you in this Swagger-filled episode. Oh, it's just below him later being like, sorry, that was a video moment. See?

Incredible expression in the final scene. Incredible. Jace and Eamon really need to have a blue steel off. They're both like blue stealing as hard as they can. They're just like cheekbones, you know, aplenty. And like a little bit of pout. This is something that you and Mitchell and Harry Collette are both constantly doing. And I support them in that. Great stuff. Do you think they are Zoolander fans?

We know Ewan Mitchell is a cinema fan. Cinema. Apparently the children call it mogging. And I'm like, does no one remember Blue Stealing? But anyway. Sad. Sad. Is Zoolander not a reference, a hip reference for the youth anymore? Oh, no. It's possible that that, like, 20-year-old film is no longer. Oh, boy. I'm going to have to reflect on this later. Jeez. In the present, I will be reflecting on.

Damien Targaryen chopping, like, four logs of wood and pretending like he really got his hands dirty leading the war effort. He got blisters. Okay. Joanna, I would not consume the wherewood leaf magic potion from the witch. I would not let the witch put the surely hypoallergenic, only 10% hallucinogenic, I swear, ointment into my open flesh. I wouldn't do any of that. And...

We have some questions on would Damon do other things that we're going to talk about in this sequence here. Oh, my God, yes. So Alice is kind of like watching from the balcony. It comes down. They have – We hear the screams. Presumably the screams of the Riverlands. The Brackens. Yeah. The women and the children.

And the children, too. Exactly. And the children, too. And the children, too. So I didn't go back and listen, but one of our listeners wrote in asking if they thought Rhaenyra's screams from her miscarriage at the end of last season was mixed in. I didn't go back and listen, but that's an interesting thought. Geez. Yeah. I thought Alice was just directing the screams that she's hearing on the wind into Daemon's psyche. The wind sent me word from...

Brackenland. News. I've hit the share. I've activated the share button and sent that your way. Share my screen. I am curating your TikTok. She's got some feedback for Damon. Yeah.

This continues a little recent pattern of Alice saying things to Damon that we wouldn't necessarily expect him to suffer from too many characters. She says things like, when he says war is a terrible thing, this is not war. These are crimes against the innocent that any upright man would repudiate. Or is that the kind of army you would raise? Men who hate you, who serve you under your duress? Or I'll cross you no further. I'm sure your tactics are, after all, approved.

by the queen what are you making of the fact that daemon is willing to receive this rather than again the old like took out dark sister and lopped off your head because i didn't like the things you were saying i think well first of all we need to shout out him saying like basically you confused me for an upright man like great stuff where'd you get that um

I think he's just been put in a vulnerable space, a vulnerable guilt-ridden space, where he's open to this kind of manipulation. Whether it's just her manipulating his dreams or the potential werewood goo that she gave him or whatever witchy amazing shit she's doing. 10 out of 10, Alice, I have no nose for you. You're the best. Yeah.

He's put him in a place where he's just sort of vulnerable here. What I really like is this idea that, like, dragon riders can just, like, hop on Caraxes if they're pissed at their wives or, like, whatever and just, like, zoom in

Like, away from the carnage. And Alice is really trying to bring Damon down to earth. I still don't know that I have a full grasp on, like, to what end. Yeah. But she's really trying to make him marinate in the actual horror of what's happening on the ground. Right. And, like, even the way she puts, like, what has followed you here. Right. You can't actually flee and escape the imprint that you have left on the realm around you. Yeah, it's a great call. Are you getting any...

Masaria vibes, not current Masaria, but like the Masaria-Damon relationship in terms of him not just having maybe like a draw or an attraction to a mysterious woman of a certain standing, but the fact that he will confide in this person. We're going to get to the things Damon says shortly here. Or let...

That person tried him and ridicule him, which like, again, he doesn't allow too many other people to do. As soon as you start critiquing Damon, he's kind of like, I'm out. That's it. But Alice and Masaria were able to say things to speak hard truths to him. So does that feel like a. That's a fun comp. That's interesting. Something to watch.

All right, let's talk about what Daymond does, which is just respond outright by saying Rhaenyra cannot succeed. Her supporters won't let her lead. They look to a man for strength. Where are you with this a couple days later? What do you want to say about this? Take me through how you are processing this particular rendering of Daymond Targaryen. I'm really out on it.

But also holding out to see the full shape of the season. Okay. Okay. Here's the thing about Damon Targaryen. Yes. He is George R.R. Martin's favorite Targaryen. Um, perhaps his favorite character, full stop. Yeah. Um,

So I want to talk about all that and why it's important to get Damon right. Yes. Because he's so important to George. Yes. This has not come from me in a I love Damon fangirl space because I think Damon is an actual piece of shit often. And that's part of the whole thing. But it can't just be that. And that's what's really important. That mix is part of what is such a fascinating brew. Brew. Brew. I haven't said brew in a while. I know. It's been a minute. One of our listeners, Tina...

Sent an email about this idea of Harrenhal being, she likened it to like a horcrux or the one ring if you prefer. Love this. This idea of like it enacting, she called it psychic rot. Incredible. Less hypnotic therapy and more like a psychotic, psychotic she said, psychotic rot. Is Alice trying to drive a wedge between Damon and Rhaenyra by digging up and defeating Damon's darkest fears slash ambitions? Yes.

Is it like Ron wearing the horcrux, this magic slowly corrupting his mind, confirming everything he's ever dreaded? Damon has tried to bury these intrusive thoughts his entire life. Is Alice here to unearth them, to validate them? Damon seems in some ways possessed. First, he wants to be called your grace. Then it's my king. Is the progression coming from Damon or from something else within him? We see Damon refusing to eat when he first arrives at Harrenhal for fear of being poisoned. But what if the poison isn't a physical ailment, but a spiritual one?

And like, I love this idea that Heron Hall's particular brand of

psychotic rot or psychic rot would be that one of ambition. Yeah. Yes. Because we talked about this when we talked about Harrenhal, this idea of like, Harrenhal itself is shaped like a grasping fist, like reaching towards the sky. And all of the people who have occupied it before Daemon and after Daemon are sort of infected with this idea of like... Right.

wanting more and more, you know what I mean? Like the people who would be most drawn to pursuing the occupation of Harrenhal, the taming of Harrenhal, are the ones who are most vulnerable to what it could surface inside of them. Yeah, that's delicious. I really love that. But like, again...

If this is, like, something Damon's going through and working through, I mean, I personally never forgave Ron for abandoning Hermione and Harry in the forest. Tough one. But, you know, if you consider it closer to, like, Frodo, like, the things that Frodo did that he would never actually do or Bilbo did because they were corrupted by the ring, which is, of course, Jacob Rowling's inspiration for the Horcrux. Yeah.

It gets back to like what I really need Daemon Targaryen to be, right? So in order to fulfill George's prompt, right?

where he says he likes a gray character, right? He calls Daemon one of the grayest characters in the history of Westeros, is Daemon the Rogue Prince. Notorious bad boy. A rogue in every sense. And George's world is just like full of these characters. It's slightly secure to give us one of those characters in Fire and Blood versus A Song of Ice and Fire, because in A Song of Ice and Fire, we're inside the heads of these characters, so we are...

privy all the time to that conflict inside the human heart that we love to talk about. Would you say it's the only thing worth writing about? I really would, right? And so for a character like Jamie, who's like, I think a pretty good comp in some ways for Damon. Yeah.

In Jaime's inner monologue in A Song of Ice and Fire, we get lines like, and me, that boy I was, when did he die, I wonder, when I donned the white cloak, when I opened Ares' throat, that boy had wanted to be Ser Arthur Dayne, but someplace along the way he became the smiling knight instead. Like, him contemplating his own monstrosity. And, like, how differently would we understand Daemon if we were inside his head and understanding what he meant to...

when he said air for a day or understanding what it meant to confront Viserys and all that sort of stuff like that. But we don't have that access inside his head. And so what we need and what George gives us often plot-wise from Daemon are these moments where we have to decide for ourselves, but there's constant ambiguity of like, what is Daemon thinking? When is he going to...

you know, confirm our worst feelings about him? And when is he going to surprise us with a moment of tenderness and affection? Picking up the crown. Picking up the crown. Yeah. Like being there for Viserys is,

And so I think they've just done such a good job in graying up some of the characters that are a little bit more black and white in Fire and Blood. Like with Allison, we talk about this a lot. They've done such a good job with Allison. And we've talked inside this episode about all the moments where we are asked to feel sorry for...

characters we find somewhat monstrous or feel empathy for, you know, a Kristen Cole and Alison Hightower. In this season, Aegon and Aemon have all had these moments of like, I feel for this guy. I really do. Daemon has not had any of those moments this season. There's not a single moment I can think of this season where I'm like, I really feel for Daemon in this. And that wasn't in true season one. Certainly not. And so I kind of feel like it's something that like,

is an overcorrection of a response to Damon the character in season one that both Ryan Condal and Sarah Hess and a couple other people who work on the show talked about where they were just sort of like yeah we don't understand the baby girlification of Damon Targaryen like yeah Condal told us he's like I understand the allure of him yes why people find him yeah fascinating of course but like that's different from people were like yes murder me daddy and they were like no it's not what we want right and I agree that's not what you want but like

I think they veered too far. And I think this is what some of the quotes that Matt Smith was giving about his character this season, this sort of dissatisfaction with like, Damon is like on the back foot. Now, again, if we're in the middle of some sort of like movement, which I really feel like we must be. I hope so. Then I'm just like really ready to be here for where this character goes. But like... Yeah. Yeah.

This, like, abject disloyalty to Rhaenyra feels so out of character for me. And I understand that some people are listening home and being like, he killed his first wife. What are you talking about? But I just think if you think about Viserys, like, he would say to Corlys, like, he was never good at being king or I would be the king. But not like, here's my plan.

To usurp my brother's throne is not something Damon ever would have said. And that loyalty and that familial affection is a key part of Damon being a gray character and not a, like, pitch dark black villainous character. And that's why he's George's favorite is that he's complicated. He's both. He's all these things, you know? Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, I am the...

I broadly agree. I think the Ron Horcroft's comp is an interesting one because while I think the inability to forgive is reasonable, the reason I... It's a tough one. When he leaves, it is. But he came back. That scene, that moment always breaks me because he's like, I get it. You choose him. And the thing that the Horcrofts is able to prey upon...

is a real feeling inside of Ron. Yes. And then it's warped and weaponized and consumes the better instincts and the better angels. So if that's what we're seeing, I love the way you're, the point in the email and then your description of Harrenhal as that comp

amplifying the worst parts of Damon, the worst instincts that Damon carries, and the then kind of delicious irony of Damon ending up in this state of psychic rot. Great, wonderful phrase that we will be continuing to use moving forward. Because he thought this was the place he needed to be to prove his worth. That's all really interesting to me. I also feel...

that my hope as well and I think my expectation is that this is like a rut that they're both in, Rhaenyra and Daemon, Daemon in a more kind of like toxic way where they're saying we don't need the other, I don't need the other person and then they have to work back to realizing that they can ultimately unlock something like more fruitful together than they can apart. Which is not even like a spoiler-based thing. It's like what Condal was saying about

that this season is about their marriage to a certain degree. And also the book problem that we've raised a couple of times, which is that

where nira's off the board this moment in the book and damon's just at heron hall with like five sentences to his name at this point in the story right yeah so they're like trying to figure out like what's interesting to do right with these characters yeah where we don't have text right to explain what they're up to so what are they up to they're dressing up as septas and sinking into king's landing but they're also just sort of like really processing what does it mean to have this alliance with this other person navigating the internal conflict i think that

Condal's quote on inside the episode, though, I did find, like... Troubling. A little alarming. This is kind of the counterweight dust being like, we hope and expect. He said, and while I don't think that anybody could ever be asked to believe that he, Daemon, would turn against Rhaenyra and go to war against her, I think we could all believe that maybe Daemon would just go and claim the throne for himself. Now...

That's not, I think, our read on Daemon to this point. And so the question of whether that will be an evolving view... Or an adaptive change. Or an adaptive change. The moment that still... Because you cited what he says to Viserys about Viserys to Corlys. We've talked about what he says to Rhaenyra in this season, etc. He held...

Viserys in a state of judgment for the way he ruled, but also wanted him to bring him closer to let him help. He believed he would be better, but he didn't necessarily want to take the throne from him. He said, just like, let me help you. Yeah, even the way that he... Our powers combined. Let's Voltron. Even just the way he constantly, like, refers to himself, including to Alyssa in this sequence, as Viserys' rightful heir, there's a...

I consider that language deliberate from Daemon that it shows us I am the one who is meant to carry on his legacy. Now, there are things he would change about the legacy, things he deplores about Viserys's legacy. Yeah.

but he thinks that he should have been the one to continue it, not necessarily to replace him. And that does feel like a kind of important distinction, right? So the moment that I still can't shake, even though we do have, it reminds me, this reminds me a little bit, this is for Jack who's helping us out today, of like a baseball argument where you can always find the stat on fan graphs that you need to make your case. There are plenty of counterpoints to this, but the one that still sticks out to me, even though this was so long ago in the canon now,

is, you know, Viserys saying Daemon has ambition, yes, but not for the throne. He lacks the patience for it. And Autos replies, like, you know, the gods have yet to make a man who lacks the patience for absolute power. But Daemon, we watch him kind of glimpsing that through the latticework. Yeah. And it just always seemed like that little kind of

tiny little smirk and laugh was like appreciation. He gets it. Yeah. That's the person who everyone else thinks I'm a monster. Yeah. And that's the guy who understands that I'm flawed and I make him mad, I make him disappointed, but he knows like my heart. That's different than this for sure. I really agree. Yeah.

So, again, I just – I think I – my fear is that it's a bit of an overcorrection from, like, something that happened in season one where, like, it's the same thing where it's, like, I don't know, people thinking that Joe on the show You is, like, a dreamboat. And you're like, no, a literal psychotic stalker and killer. And it's complicated. One thing I wanted to talk about – Oh, man. There's – okay, so there's this idea that, like, which you and Chris raised on Talk of Thrones, and a lot of people have been latching on to this moment where Alice –

walks away from David in the hallway, and she sort of... It's definitely staged in a way because she's walking very carefully, like to hit a mark. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So that she disappears behind Simon Strong. As in, like, he comes to the fore. She doesn't actually vanish. She walks behind him so we can no longer see her. Then the camera cuts away, and then it cuts back, and she's gone. So your very reasonable question was, did that...

bitch just vanish into thin air. My question is really, do they want us to be asking that question? They want us... I definitely think they want us to be asking that. Here's our... And we talked about this last week. We're going to run it down again. Has Alice talked to anyone else at Heron Hall yet? Right. No. When she walks in in her very first entrance in episode three, and...

Simon is like, we're bending the knee. Don't worry. We'll hop to it. One of the random strong boys who's always at the table, when she walks in, he looks directly at her. Yeah. So, like... Right. Simon looks at her here in this sequence. Simon looks at her here. Some people are wondering, like, if he's looking at her here, the way that he looks when Damon looks at the empty air and is like, who are you? What are you looking at? I don't see anything there. Right. Another thing is, like, is he looking at her the way that, like,

He looked at that hand, the, like, the serving woman who Damon thought was Lena. Right. So is Alice glamored in some way? You know, where he's like, why is she talking to this random kitchen witch? Yeah. You know. And he, one of the times that he sees Alice in this episode is, like, her. Pouring. Pouring. Yeah. At the dinner table. Yeah. Yeah.

So, like, I think these are all questions they want us to ask. Is she glamored? Is she actually there? You know, what's going on? And something, a question we asked before, which I think is worth asking again, which is, like, what is her aim? Yes. If she's up to something witchy constantly, why...

is Sir Simon and his boys, why are they not experiencing weird dreams? Yeah. You know, as far as we know. I'm not going to read this whole email from a nameless emailer about Alice. And it's about, it's about sort of like,

It's about Euron Greyjoy, who is also a greenseer, the way that Alice almost certainly is a greenseer, and this idea that, like, not all greenseers... Hashtag not all greenseers are necessarily, like, virtuous in some way or another, that Euron uses his greenseeing abilities for...

power to amass more power for absolute brutality. This is different than Euron Greyjoy in the show. This is book Euron Greyjoy who's completely different absolute maniac. But this question is like is Alice using her powers for mischief for power for you know

Like, it doesn't have to be an I speak for the trees Lorax sort of thing. It doesn't have to be an altruistic, I'm pruning the branches on the Targaryen family tree to give us Azor Ahai reborn, the prince who was promised. Right. Something that this emailer pointed out that, like, had never occurred to me that I absolutely loved is this idea that, like... Thank you. Is that...

So, Alice, if she is of some sort of strong stock, which is one of the many theories in the book, though the actress has said she is very old. But if she is of strong stock, they trace their lineage back to the First Men. So, this emailer points out that we've only seen three, fact check that if you will, but only three...

byproducts of a Targaryen slash First Man intermixing. The Strong Boys, Brendan Rivers, the Blood Raven,

And Jon Snow, because the Starks trace their lineage back. Brennan Rivers' mom traces her lineage back to the First Men, blah, blah. So this idea of like a combo of First Men blood from Alice Rivers and Targ blood, like is she trying to have sex with Daemon and get an air off of him? Because that will be a really cool cocktail of firsts.

fire blood and ice blood. Right. You know, like, what do we think? Well, now she knows what gets him going. She makes sure he's aware that she's peeping on the mom dream, so. Just get the mom involved. So, yeah. Fascinating. The idea of, like, again, I would love to hear from our historian pals listening to this, but, like, First Men blood and Targaryen blood would have been the other instances of that. If you were Daemon, would you just leave? I mean, I know it's an expensive... I would have left...

I would have left long ago. But again, this is like a point of pride. Yeah, he can't concede. He can't let Harrenhalde defeat him. I know, yeah. Oh, Damon. Great stuff from you. That was wonderful. And from you. Baila and Corliss. We talked about this a lot in our interview with Steve. Yeah. So we'll maybe just go through this really quickly because we're going to revisit it with him. Anything you want to...

Say about this. I loved this scene. Great Bela episode. Great Bela episode. And, like, just something finally for that character to do a bit more. I mean, with all due respect to the Moondancer incident earlier this season. But, like...

I just... I thought this was wonderful. I thought her... Like, really feeling, like, the shape of her character come through. Yeah. Yes. And I like the separation of the sisters, you know, because, like... Yeah. It's always, like, Bela and Reyna. Bela and Reyna. Bela, like, to, like... Now let's understand who they are. Here's what Reyna's doing in the Vale, and here's what Bela's doing here with Corlys. I think it's great. I agree completely. I...

the I am fire and blood drift mark must pass to salt and sea. Just the framing of that, the phrasing, the confidence with which she said, in essence, I know who I am. Yeah. So,

So many characters are trying to figure that out. It was really striking. And I thought, too, just, like, the fact that she finds Corlys. You know, she says that she looked for you in the trident. This has, like, become this season, I think, my favorite, like, random recurring bit of ours. Great stuff.

And he's not there because he says his house has just become a tomb. And it reminded me of after Vaman's death, that moment between Rhaenys and Orwyle in the first season where, you know, he says to her...

Alfred's going to Harrenhal, and may he be haunted in his journey. Yeah.

Oh, man. Very amusing when Rhaenyra's like, am I off? Or when Alfred says to Rhaenyra, like, am I off the council? It's like, would you be surprised? I mean, she handles this with a level of a plume and tact that I thought was, like, frankly, remarkably to her credit. I would be like, fuck yeah, get out of here. May he be smeared in weirwood paste. May he be chopped up and fed to the weirwood trees. Oh, man. Alfred.

Wild stuff. Do they have doors in Dragonstone? Don't let the massive cavernous archways hit you on the way out. Don't let the dragons eat you on the way out. That's my message to Alfred. Okay. We have notes for Alfred, always. And Joanna, boy, do the river lords have some notes for Damon, who is woken in the hour of the wolf. This is rude. They have valid feedback here.

It's a 4 a.m. meeting. This is just simply not acceptable. Now, they wrote to Harrenhal. They got there when they got there. I would be like, can I have, like, a brief power nap and a nosh? And then I will see Damon when he rises. In one of your many drippy rooms. Yeah.

I was very amused when Damon walks in to this, like, clearly angry group of important people. Yeah. Right? We, like, we have a Derry here. We have a Malister here. Wallace Mooton is here. Like, these aren't nobody characters who have come to give Damon a piece of their minds. And he's just like, let's start with a lesson in etiquette. Yeah.

But I also love when he's like, is it time for pudding? And it's just like because so many times he's been awoken from these dreams and he's actually at dinner. That was incredible. That was incredible. Oh, Matt Smith. Wonderful stuff. So here's the update from the Riverlords.

They're not happy. They know he killed a baby. The Blackwoods have visited absolute abject atrocities on the Brackens. That's why. Desecrated steps. Desecrated steps. Let's bring Anakin back for a moment. The women and the children, too. Yeah. And when they allude to Lil' Baseball Neck, they mention that this was foul business conducted under Rhaenyra's banner.

We mentioned on Talk of the Thrones, like this reminds us as Thrones viewers of the mountain. You know, I was waiting for Ned to just appear into the scene and say, I attained him.

One of Ned's greatest moments, honestly. So good. Daemon is so shook in the face of this. Like, it was really striking. He's like, I'll have the man who, I didn't do that. I'll have the man who said I did that pro-performing. It's like, it's half the fucking kingdom. They're like, everyone, good luck. This is your reputation and your standing in the realm. Yeah. And they say to him, with a level of, like, bold, unflappable, like, no fear, right? Again, to that idea of, like, they're not...

impressed by you at all. Right. Another, this goes back to the dragons, the melees and the procession and this idea of like, I thought they were gods. Like, they don't think of the Targaryens this way here, which is fascinating to think about given the history of like, we're in Harrenhal where Aegon and Balerion rain down fire and the castle is a melted, ruinous reminder of that might. And they stand in that very building and they're like, we're not really impressed by what you're doing and we're pretty unfussed by this whole Targ thing. So don't expect us to bow to a tyrant.

Also, we heard that you aren't burning people even when they say they choose fire. So we don't give a shit. Oh, man. I'm a malister. Try me. Yeah. Great stuff. Great stuff. Daemon. Tough one. Aemond? So this is real life for Aemond. He is standing in the throne room. He's looking at the throne. But it visually looked so similar to Daemon's throne room dream. Well, he did thunder and lightning. Yeah.

Which is a sign of dream weather. Dream weather. I loved this. I loved this visual comp. Loved. What would you like to say about these two and the ties? Yeah, we promised like a week or two ago that we would do a little like Damon Amond foil conversation.

from a listener who's not a book reader who's like, okay, maybe you have book knowledge that I don't have, but can you talk to me why people are constantly comping these two? And

One of our listeners, Eitan, wrote in to wonder, is the shift in Daemon's character that we were sort of calling out a desire on the part of the show to draw him even closer to Aemon in their sort of characterization? Yeah. In terms of, like, desire for power or what will you do for the throne, et cetera. Right.

I would do a better job than the person who's there right now. Yeah. Okay. So this season has done work to attempt to, like, expose the interior life of these two characters, right? We've got Eamon in the brothel and Damon in his dreams. Like, what are the inner workings of these guys? Very mommy-forward sequences for both of them. White mommy-focused. Yeah.

So this is the tedious, tiniest of tropes course language convo happening here. I miss the tropes course. We'll get back to it. It's been a minute. But like the idea of a foil. Yes. What a foil is are two characters. And I think I'm guilty of misusing it.

But foils are two characters who are quite different, that are in like somewhat similar circumstances. You can sort of like put them under an umbrella. But when you look at their characters and their choices and the way they live their lives, they view their lives, they're quite intentionally created as different from each other in order to highlight certain aspects of each other. George loves a foil. Yeah.

Um, he said when someone wants to ask him why he writes so many foils, he says, well, drama rises out of conflict. So you like to put together two characters who are very different from each other and stand back and watch the sparks fly. That gets you better dialogue and better situations. He literally created, Arya was the first character he created and he literally created Sansa as a contrast to Arya. Right.

But, you know, there's also like Bran and Jaime or Ramsay and Jon or Cersei and Margaery or et cetera, et cetera. So this is a constant like setup in George's work. Foils is not what we're talking about actually with Daemon. And Daemon, they're mirror characters. Foil, actually, fun fact, and I just learned that this week. The term foil comes from the fact that jewelers used to put foil under jewelry in the display cases in order to like bring out the shine of, you know, so like...

That's what a foil character is there to bring out the shine of the other character. Mirror characters are different in that they are like very, very, very similar to each other. And in that way, it can be like a subtler way of bringing out the distinction and the differences because it's like they're almost the same. And it then really underlines the ways in which they are just like slightly different. And this is what we're dealing with. We're talking about Damon and Amon's.

whose names are the same. You just move the D around. Just like these two words are looking at each other in the mirror. That's what it is, right? But all the things that they share, right? Mommy issues you already called out.

Second sons. Fond of a flat iron. Menace on a dragon back. Yes. Excellent swordsman. Both killed a child to kick off the war. In the book, Aemon, upon the death of his father, was said to have asked if Aegon was king or if they had to...

kneel and kiss the horse cunny referring to Rhaenyra when Viserys' son Balon died Daemon was reported saying air for a day about the baby so these are just guys who just say some shit when sad things happen in their family here are the differences as far as I see them and please agree or disagree if you will emotionality impulsivity and loyalty to family right? Daemon is on lockdown yeah he is not an impulsive person

He waits. Wait, Vhagar. He plans. Yeah. He reacts slowly. Yeah. He plays the long game. Yeah. You humiliate him in a brothel. He will fuck you up in a small council meeting and then torture us out of the sky later. But he's not going to start a fight right there in the brothel. Right? Mm-hmm. Damon would have taken Aegon's head off in that brothel. Yeah. That would have been a good thing.

So, like, Daemon is much more of an impulsive person. But in terms of that loyalty to family thing, which goes back to our question of how Daemon is being depicted this season, Aemon doesn't give a shit about anyone in his family. Maybe Helena. Yeah. He cares more about the idea. And this is ultimately one of the things they do share, the idea of, like, what a Targaryen lineage means. Legacy more than the people. But not the connection to the people. Whereas, like, Daemon...

pretty crap dad not as much of a crap dad in the books but like pretty crap dad but like in terms of like when it comes to Viserys and Rhaenyra there is that like actual emotional connection there for him and to Lena as well as far as we know and the last the last difference I think is fascinating and this is like very much a show choice is

Is the armor thing. We called this out before that Aemon is like sitting on Vhagar in just like leathers. Yep. In contrast to Aegon. Yeah. But Daemon is constantly sitting in this like absolutely ridiculous. Yeah. Thick, dumb. Yeah. Wings on the helmet and everything. Like cuckoo armor. Yeah. And once again, Aemon is just walking around in these like sleek leathers. Yeah. And I think it's just because it's like what Chris Ryan was talking about in the brothel scene is like,

Aemon is the armor. Yep. When he was naked as a jaybird in the brothel, that was him armored up. For sure. So he's always wearing armor. Yeah. Aemon has to put on this, like... Which is, like, a different... Ultimately, just, like, projecting a different... Your insecurity manifesting in a different way. It's, like, telling yourself you don't need any shell to keep you safe, right? Yeah. I think the impulsivity thing, like, that's why what happened...

in Shipwreckers Bay, what happened at Storm's End with Luke was so striking because, and that's why Aemond has carried it with him. Like, it's not just, I regret that business with Luke, but they were mean to me. Let me explain what led to it. It's,

I'm usually a little more in control of myself, of my circumstances. And that's the other thing. I mean, we've seen Damon carry the emotional weight of the things that he has done. But when we saw Damon say to Sylvie, I feel bad about this. We talked about this in that episode, in the second episode of this season. It was such a notable contrast to Damon in that same episode being like,

I have, why are you blaming me for this? Like, I, it was a mistake. Excellent. Who's saying I did this? Bring them before me. Oh, it's half the kingdom? Well, it's going to take a little bit while to get through that line. But I think the question now, and this gets back to what we were talking about earlier today, is like, will we see that from Aemond again? I wonder if that will be like the last vestige of that,

and softness. And if he will like let himself continue to express or feel that or whether he will, that will just be a brief difference between them that becomes ultimately more of a similarity moving forward. Love that. Mini tropes course. Always a delight. Always a thrill. What did you make? We already talked about what Helena said. Is there anything else you wanted to add here about...

I just, I fear for the Haleemund shippers if this is all we're getting from them so far this season. Yeah, that was an opportunity there for like a warmth between them. Like maybe just like a tender hand on the forearm. Anything, anything at all. Um,

We already talked about Aegon choking out the little mummy, Uterin. So that takes us to our final scene, which is Jace and Rhaenyra doing some dragon math, which is thrilling. Get out the microfiche. It's time to do some research. We love a library. 23andMe and dragons. We love to use the search function on the Kindle app. Oh, man. So Jace comes back. Rhaenyra is studying the texts on Visenya. Jace has some notes.

Really the theme of the episode. A lot of characters have a lot of notes. Yeah. He doesn't think that this should be the role model that Rhaenyra seeks. And we've chatted about this already a little bit, but let's show this passage from Fire and Blood, which kind of sums up the complexity of this.

of Visenya Targaryen, the older, elder sibling, the sister wife, one of the two sister wives of Aegon the Conqueror. A spicy figure. Indeed. Visenya, eldest of the three siblings, was as much a warrior as Aegon himself, as comfortable in ringmail as in silk. She carried the Valyrian longsword Dark Sister and was skilled in its use, having trained beside her brother since childhood. A thing Rhaenyra, of course, did not get to do.

Though possessed of the silver gold hair and purple eyes of Valeria, hers was a harsh, austere beauty. Even those who loved her best found Visenya stern, serious, and unforgiving. Some said that she played with poisons and dabbled in dark sorceries. Dabbling in dark sorceries is a... But who doesn't like to dabble? I love to dabble. Love to dabble. So this is like the thing that Jace fears, right? Okay, you want to...

You want to model yourself after somebody who did the thing regularly that we're all telling you not to do, which is, like, be on the front line. But, of course, for Rhaenyra, that's the draw, right? That's the appeal, is not only being in the mix, but being as consequential as the fabled figure in history. And, like, we've talked about Rhaenyra's personal connection to Visenya, tracing back to the beginning of the show. She wanted to name her younger sibling Visenya. If it was a girl, we had that. God's be good. This family already has its Visenya response from Viserys when Emma told him that. Right.

Rhaenyra names her stillborn child Visenya. We know that Visenya is a hero of Rhaenyra's. We've talked before about that great conversation between Arya and Tywin in Harrenhal, thinking back to the legend of dragon power and what Aegon and Balerion did at Harrenhal. And Arya's like, let's not forget... Also Visenya. Visenya. Let's not forget the sister wives. So you understand why Rhaenyra would want to model herself after Visenya, but then you're also like...

figure in many respects who was one constantly helped bring the realm to heal but was constantly in a position of peril maybe was a dark sorceress and also was the mother to make or the cruel Jace the cruel does not have the right ring to it you know what I mean no absolutely not so Jace is like maybe not this

The question that Raniere is like, is this what I have to be in order to be respected? This is a question I, like, when I was, like, in my 20s and worked for, like, a couple different, like, hard asses. A question that we asked ourselves...

Do you have to be a hard ass in order to rise this high in the various fields that we were talking about? Like, is that who you have to be? Yeah. These are all, like, women that we were talking about. Like, do you have to be an absolute terror? Man. A Miranda Priestly or whatever. Yeah. In order to get respect. Yeah.

And I think this is a question a lot of people and certainly a lot of women ask themselves. And I think it's really smart to have Rhaenyra sort of dwelling on this. For sure. How did you feel about the way that she just speaks very openly to Jace? Like, again, able to carry more than one thing in her mind and heart at once. I'm proud of you for what you did at the Twins. It was important. You did great.

I love you. Also, I resent the fact that you can ignore what I tell you and go do the thing you want, and I right now don't feel like I can do the same. Yeah, I liked it. Oh, boy. So Rhaenyra tried to avoid dragon war at all costs, and now here's where we are. I've lost two dragons, and I need more. I need dragons. I need dragons. So Jace has a pitch, and the pitch is, to be clear,

It is the pitch that Damon made in the season one finale. I can say this is like correction though, because in the books, it's Jace's idea. Yeah. Yeah. And we talked about that a lot when we covered the finale. They were like- Oh, interesting. They've changed Damon's relationship to this idea. Yeah. This actually felt kind of true to life to me that like you're pissed at someone and you're like,

I don't need to acknowledge this. And then someone later is like, what if it's the same idea? And you're like, ooh, Jace, your hair is so compelling this year. I must follow. The pomalene, it holds a lot of sway. So we have two large enough, meaning dragons, to stand against Vhagar. They're called Vermithor and Silverwing, and they sleep just beneath our feet.

You and Chris shocked me, floored me, astonished me on Talk the Thrones by you fed Chris the dragon math and he pretended like he knew. And I was like, are we in Harrenhal? What is happening? What is reality? It was a delight. I've never seen someone agree to something faster. So I was like, do you want to make Valerie's head explode? And he's like, yeah. Wild times. So in case anybody did not watch Talk the Thrones, which you can go to right now, here's a quick rundown of the dragon math. The greens. They have Vhagar. Worth a thousand times the price you paid, Jo. Yeah.

Dreamfire. Can take on more than one dragon. So Vhagar counts for more than one. Dreamfire. Do you think we will be seeing Dreamfire in battle? Helena has a dragon called Dreamfire. We saw it in the background briefly in season one. We have not heard much of it since. Sunfire. Badly, badly, badly wounded, but we are not ready to officially take Sunfire off the board. Tesarian. Not yet rideable. But coming. Darren's dragon somewhere in the margins. Somewhere. Somewhere.

And then... Some kilns, some eggs. Some eggs. So, not yet ready. Okay. Team Black. Maileys, off the board. Aerax, off the board. So since Daemon's dragon math pitch, two dragons have died. That is a difference of notable distinction. So here's what we have. Craxes, the Blood Worm. Daemon's mount. Syrax, Rhaenyra's dragon. Moondancer, who is getting a taste for action. Vermax, the Diplomat dragon. Fuck!

Oh, man. Virbax has seen a lot of the realm now. Virbax has traveled. Virbax has seen the world. Yeah. Tyraxes. Tyraxes and Stormcloud. Hatchlings. In the Vale. I still am taking some issue with calling Tyraxes a hatchling. But, yeah. Hatchlings and in the Vale. So, and we should say Stormcloud did not seem to be included in Daemon's, like, math if we go through the numbers that he gave. I think we just need to, like... It is what it is. Okay. And then unclaimed. But...

Have been ridden before. Yes, right. So we'll have two categories of unclaimed here that are part of their math. So previously ridden, known to be able to pair with a rider. Vermithor. The bronze fury, the former mount of Jaehaerys the Conciliator. No big deal. Daemon saying to Vermithor at the end of last season. A lullaby. Beautiful. Silverwing, the good Queen Alysanne's mount. Have not seen Silverwing yet, but. Cannot wait. In the basement. Cannot wait. And Seasmoke.

Of the goatee. Laenor's dragon, complicated. Yes, and we have seen Seasmoke a couple times this season. Adam watched Seasmoke. Both of them around Adam. Masaria and Rhaenyra saw Seasmoke, like, crying out. Lonely. Lonely laments. Very sad. Then we have another category here. Wild dragons. They're there, flying around on Dragonstone, but they have never paired with a rider. Never been mounted. Never been mounted.

Unlike Alyssa Targaryen. There you go. The cannibal. Great name. Grey ghost. Great name. Sheep stealer. It's also pretty good. All of them are good. And then, of course, eggs. We know that, I mean, we saw a daemon. A six dragons. Yeah, it's a lot. At least. Plus all the eggs.

We saw the eggs that went to the Vale with Rhaena, but we know also, like, you know, Syrax, a clutch of eggs, Daemon going down into the Dragonmont. Like, he's always talking about and has been over the episodes about the eggs that are in the mix. So they are also on Dragonstone, where the Dragonmont is, this, like, natural habitat where the dragons like to be, which is important. Like, this is a place that the dragons have a connection to their power. Not so. Oh.

The dragon pit. An unnatural, confining habitat that will be the subject of canon for ages to come. So this is... The math favors Team Black, Jo, if they can find their riders. If they can find their riders. I think a couple things are important here. I think we're going to spend more time on this concept in future episodes. Yes, we will circle back after we see more. This is sort of an abbreviated thing, but here's a couple things to think about. One is that Jace himself...

is not as Targi as no one really thinks he's that Targi but he's half strong half Targaryen and he can claim his dragon no problem so he's like he's got every reason Justice's brothers Luke and Joff could he has every reason to be like Valyrian history sure they said you had to be pure of blood but do you I loved this me too loved and like the meta aspect for us as fans when we're parsing the unreliable narrative nature of the history is for Jace to be like yeah like Gildan and Glory this is just the propaganda

ganda machine making us seem really special. And we've talked a lot before about how, just to remind folks, like in Valeria of old, the Lego set before it was disassembled, the Targaryens were like

One of many dragon riding families and hardly the most notable or powerful. So other bloodlines who can trace their roots to old Valeria, when they were, before the doom, before the Freehold fell, other families rode dragons. So there's this connection to the Valerian history that we'll explore more. Our colleague Riley wrote a great piece on TheRinger.com. What a great website. Valerian, not Valerian.

is the key. Yes, yes, yes. Going through some of the potential theories of like the ties to the blood magic in Old Valerian, what that might mean. He had a lot of fun with that. And there is that Septim Barth, get your Thanos was right mug and move it out of the way. It's time for a Septim Barth was right. Note in...

George's latest Not A Blog on dragons where he said Septon Barth got much of it, right? We're going to, again, we'll circle back like after the show explores this attempt to pair and we'll talk more about what that cements or updates or confirms or tweaks, whatever, about what we know about the canon. The other thing in the Not A Blog post that we should mention is that George was like, I'll be going into much more detail on this in Winds of Winter. A book that's definitely coming very soon. Oh my God. Mallory. Mallory.

How do you feel about the potential for Winds of Winter dropping when they just announced a new box set of the existing books? This was a tough moment. Yeah. In Ringer Game of Thrones slack.

This was tough. What did I say? It's not coming. I definitely had a, I will buy this. I can't wait to buy this. This cover art is stunning. Oh my God. Oh, and beautiful. Love it. Can't wait to add it to the bookshelf. Oh no, they wouldn't be putting out a new box set if they thought they had another book to add to it soon. They really wouldn't. But back to your point about like Jace and his lineage, because we've talked about the other side of that before, which was how people could suspect Jace and Luke and Jaffa being bastards all they want. Like Rhaenyra is still their mother. So the idea that they would have like

a difficult time claiming their dragon was always a little bit bizarre. Yeah. But it had long been the custom amongst the dragon lords of Valyria to wed brother to sister to keep the bloodlines pure. So again, a larger Valyrian tradition, not just a Targ tradition. Bloodlines pure. I like, to your point, Jace and Rhaenyra bringing that knowledge to this. Like, whoa, we were okay. Maybe you just need it on one side. Maybe you don't need it at all. Maybe it is total propaganda. What's hilarious about Jace

Again, I don't like using the B word unless you say illegitimately conceived. Conceived out of wedlock.

I love that they're like, let's look to our cousins, not like, let's look around for some other illegitimate children. Yeah. They're like, let's search the family tree for some distant cousins who might have some Targ blood. That was really interesting. Yeah, let's start with just like the non-ruling Targs who have to be like shunted off to other marriages and other families. The Tarly Targs. Tough moment there for the Malisters and the Tarlys.

Caught astray. Caught astray. This question of disaster for the Targs. Yes. Our listener Cody, just to

parallel malees being paraded through the street, is this idea of like, okay, if we democratize the force, which we always love, if we say, you don't have to be a pure Targaryen to ride the dragon, does that not undermine once again the specialness of the Targaryens? I mean, I agree with Rhaenyra. We need more dragons. Let's put some dragon riders on there. But if you're like putting a Malister or a Tarly on a dragon back,

Then, like, you know, then the idea of, like, Targaryens closer to gods, dragon riders. Totally. It's diluted. So a longtime source of speculation in the fandom has been, do you need some Targ blood but not full? Do you need just a drop? Blood would be thin. Maybe that's okay. How many midichlorians? Do you not need to be...

No, no. Torben, you stay away from me with your needles. No. How high does your M count have to be to ride a dragon? But there's been some speculation, and again, maybe we'll talk about this more later, but do you need to be a target? Oh, that's something that fans really like to speculate over and talk about. And I was struck by in George's post. He's talking about how dragons are not nomadic. Yeah.

And he said, think about it. If dragons were nomadic, they would have overrun half of Essos and the Doom would only have killed a few of them. Similarly, the dragons of Westeros seldom wander far from Dragonstone. Elsewise, after 300 years, we would have dragons all over the realm.

And every noble house would have a few. Now, he didn't necessarily say and write a few. Maybe they just took up residence in this scenario. But I thought that was like Curiouser and Curiouser. A striking thing to put in the post. And yeah, to your point about like

Okay, well, maybe if it ends up being like you've got some targ blood, but just not pure, you could still hold on to a little bit of that. Well, we're different. We're special, right? Targ exceptionalism. If you don't need any of it, how long can you claim to be closer to gods? Fascinating stuff. Wig watch. This is a quick wig watch. Will you wear wigs? I just feel like I always forget to wait for the musical cue. Thank you. Okay.

Alice Rivers, who I think looks incredible. Yes. In the scene, in the hallway scene with Damon where she may or may not have disappeared behind Simon Strong, I felt like her wig was really wigging out. Like, it really looked very wiggy. It was, like, riding low on her forehead and, like, you could not see in her part. Like, her part is so... Anyway, this is a telltale wig sign. If you can't, like, see any skin inside the part...

Sorry, that sounds gross. But like, it's true. Then it's just sort of like that. It looked a little dime story. So you hate a crevice, but you love a part. Interesting. In a classic way. The canon grows. It expands. Joanna, it is time now. Yeah. Slightly more elevated than that wig watch was.

For our interview, our chat with Corliss Falarian. Iconic wig wearer, Steve Toussaint. Steve Toussaint. We wanted to start by asking about sort of a meta question for you. Before we get into Corliss and Rainey's, we wanted to get into Steve and Eve and what it's like for you. You've been paired with her for so long. You're together in every interview. What's it like to lose this sort of partner in your work?

- I mean, I don't want to sort of use too much hyperbole. So I'm not going to say that I'm bereft or devastated, but near enough. It's been such a joy from the day that we first met. We just clicked just immediately, literally within seconds of meeting each other. And I've told this before that after the first day of shooting, which was the scene

The very first shot of the whole of season one was the scene where we're by the fireplace and I say that history doesn't remember bloody remembers names. After we had shot that scene, I went home and I actually said to my partner, I said, oh, thank God for Eve Best. And it has just grown from there. So, yes, the thought of not being paired with her and not doing that stuff and not working with her, it's been like, oh, no, that's horrible. But...

It's an actor's life. And hey, it's Westeros. People die. No one's safe. No one's safe.

I have a sort of related question because the Corliss-Renise marriage, but more broadly their partnership, has been like one of the most rewarding relationships for us to watch develop over the course of the two seasons so far. So we're wondering if you have not just a favorite scene, either from season one or two, that you two shared, but maybe one that you feel is like most emblematic of the nature of that partnership. Oh, wow. Um...

Oh that's a really good question. I think, just off the top of my head, I would think, and I'd have to go back and look at this scene, but how I remember this scene. There's a scene in season one, I think the king has come, I think he's come and asked for our son to marry his daughter, to marry Rhaenyra. He then retires, I hope I'm getting the chronology right,

But it's a scene basically where initially Corliss goes up to her, puts his arm around her and says something like, she says something along the lines of, you know, our son's gay, basically. And he's like, don't worry about it. He'll grow out of it. That scene, I think, is emblematic in the sense that, A, it shows, hopefully, that it shows that there's love between them.

Also that he pays attention to her, even though he does brush it off. But that's a scene that I think encapsulates an awful lot of their relationship. And in fact, they're very famous still.

was taken from that relationship where we're almost in silhouette, holding each other. I really, really have fond memories of that particular scene. Now that you've been asking me that, I'll go and watch it and go, oh, no, no, no, that's not it at all. No, that's a beautiful scene. We remember it well. Like you said, Viserys off taking a nap after one of his many body parts has just fallen off on the journey. Great stuff all around. So we find Corlys in this episode, right?

episode five in a very broken, very emotionally raw place. You just mentioned Laenor. We're chatting about Rhaenys' death, obviously. Laena. We're curious to ask you,

Because in season one, so much of Corlys' arc is defined by his pursuit of legacy. His, like, obsession with what his standing and his house's standing is going to be in the annals of history. So that has really shifted over the course of his arc. And we're wondering about that relationship specifically between grief and ambition. How has all of the loss that Corlys has suffered changed?

shaped the way he thinks about his goals, his pursuits, and what really matters? - You know, it's an interesting journey and it's been fascinating to explore it and try and play it. I think that when he said at the end of season one, prior to pledging allegiance to Renio, when he was in his sickbed and he said to his wife, "My ambition has caused the death of our children,

My brother, let's just get out of this. This is not our war. Let's just go home and enjoy our money. And she says, no, no, no. We have to now support this young lady. She's what may well keep the realm together. And in fact, she has a legitimate claim. I think he then says, OK, we'll do that. And I think he's he is being completely honest in that. OK, this is what you want me to do. I just abandoned you for six years. I owe you to actually listen to what you're saying and do it.

But I think that we don't change that much. So I think that the ambition is still there. He has suppressed it. And so I have a feeling that despite the fact that he's grieving, and certainly when we meet him at the beginning of episode five, I think he wants nothing to do with any of them. Rene is very smart in sending Bela to him and saying,

you know, ask your granddad. It'll sound better coming from you. And I think he, I think, I think he says that to her. When we shot it, he said to her, she was very smart to send you. I think there is a part of him that's still there, that still has an ambition, that still wants to, that still craves for legacy. And also his wife, one of the last things she says to him

at least on camera, prior to her untimely demise. She says, she comes down to the docks and she says to him, I know who that man is, that man who saved you. And it's not his fault that he's here.

Don't blame him for what you did, basically. And he shouldn't be swept under the carpet. He should be. I don't know if she's children use the word exalted, but it's that kind of he is your blood. He deserves to get what's coming to him. And I feel like as he said, as Corliss sits there with the hand broach in his hand, he thinks, well, I've got permission. The last thing she said.

was you should lift this child up because also all of my other heirs are gone. And the last person that I offer it to says, no, no, no, I'm fire and blood. You should come to salt and see it. It's like, well, I can't give this thing away. So I feel like the ambition is still there. The fact that he is now closer to the possibly closer to the crown, all of that plays into it. But I think there's an, there's also a bit of him that goes, well,

Maybe I can still salvage this. And also I have the blessing of my now deceased wife. Before we get to Alan, there is that offer to Bela. And I was curious...

In that moment when he offers to Bela, how much of that is sort of like an impulsive reaction to her directness, to her, the way she's carrying herself in that scene? And how much is it at all Corley's thinking about Rhaenys, who was talking about Bela and Rhaena as possible heirs? Like, how much is he thinking about her in that moment? Or how is he reacting to Bela specifically? Yeah.

For me, I think it's about Bela specifically because I think in the discussion that he has with Rhaenys, she posits she doesn't mention Bela because Bela's going to be queen. Bela's fine. She mentions the youngest boy and Corlys dismisses that. This kid is like, I don't know how old the kid is, like two or three, so don't be silly. And then she says, well, what about Rhaena? And he's like, well, she knows nothing about ships. So he dismisses her.

I think it's in that moment, that fire and that spark that Bela exhibits. It felt to me as we were playing it, I was like, oh, you really are your mother's daughter. You are your grandmother's grandchild. I think he sees...

I think for the way that I think about him, he likes a spark in people. So in the same way that with Alan, Alan is very wary of him and very much a self-made man. That independent streak, I think Corliss likes that. And so in that moment, to get back to your question, when Baylor stands up to him and says, well, you can do what the fuck you want. I think he is kind of like, oh, yeah.

Maybe it could be her. She has the spirit, but she has no sense of the story. It's not me, I think. I love that. On the Alan and Adam front, we get this great story of Corliss and Rainey's and their love story and their long enduring love story.

What does it do to your perception of that to add this information that not only did he have two boys, you know, in an affair, then that means that affair was at least long enough to issue two sons. So how does that added information inform how you think about the marriage between those two? Well, you know, it's so weird. It's been very interesting in trying to explore it and trying to

make sense of it because for the whole of season because okay I didn't read the books I purposely just chose not to read the book because the book is the book and the TV series is the TV series so let's just keep them apart and so for the whole of season one it was just all about oh they're in love and it's great and it's pure and she's the one person he trusts and so forth and then I was presented with these scripts and you're like

Oh, oh, wow. Okay. And not only did he, and so then initially I sort of went, okay, well, maybe it's that thing of sailors, they go away and they're away for months. But what was the crux of it was the fact that it's two boys with the same mother. Yeah.

And Eve and I spoke about this. I've had long discussions about this and about how Rene would feel about it and how Kors would feel about it. And I still haven't quite got to come to terms with it. I had a friend who was a capoeira instructor here in London. But when he was training, he went to Brazil to learn.

And while he was there, they would travel around Brazil giving exhibitions and so forth. And he said to me that sometimes some of the guys that he was with, he would see them. They'd be on the phone to their girlfriends back home and they'd be crying. Oh my God, I miss you so much. I love you so much. Every day I think about you. I can't think about anything else. It's just you. I love you. And tears, you know, wiping their eyes. Oh my God, my heart burns without you. They'd put the phone down and then wipe their eyes and go, okay, let's go find some girls. And we were like...

Oh my God. And there is this thing, I guess, that some people can just disassociate. When I'm here, this is my life. But you're not going to be as important to me as the lady I left behind. She is. That's my real thing. But while I'm here, this is something to pass the time. And I kind of, I guess I'm leaning towards that with Corliss. It's a very, it's an ongoing discussion with myself as to what his thoughts are. Because also we find out that these kids grew up in the shadow of

of Driftmark. Do you know what I mean? So I haven't fully found, I haven't fully been able to justify his relationship to myself yet as to, and I can only see me just like a lot of men, you know, and I'm not disassociating myself. I'm a man too, who can just sort of go, yeah, well, that's that. Let's not talk about it. I guess that's

Where he's at, I don't know. Interesting. So you haven't crafted a specific argument or moment of a rift? For you, it was never like there was a couple years where it just wasn't working in the marriage and then they figured it out. I mean, that happens. It ebbs and flows, right? I...

I mean, that would be nice. That's a nice thing to get out of. I haven't got that far because I felt like, okay, so we know that when he goes away, he goes away for a long time. After the death of his daughter, he disappeared for six years. So it's just like, you know, why? So I guess, you know, in those periods where he's done that, where he's been off exploring, or maybe some point during these years,

That would have been during the nine voyages, but maybe at some point he's gone off and done that and just thought, well, I'm going to be here for a few months. I need, I need some entertainment. And, uh, I don't know. It's a funny thing. So I, I, I've had this discussion with a couple of the directors that we worked with, with Claire and with Alan. Um, I don't recall having a long in-depth discussion with Ryan about it because, um,

The two things that stick out, of course, are the fact that they went back to the same lady. We don't know, or at least I don't know, whether their mother has passed or whether she lives there, but we don't see her, or if she's in another country altogether. That hasn't been explored, and I don't know whether it will or not, but there are more questions than answers at this stage. Yeah.

So let's stick with this, like, ghosts of the past, shadows of the past idea, but take it back into the political arena. You've already alluded to Corlys' very complex feelings about Rhaenyra. He had similarly complex feelings about Viserys. That was a big part of the beginning of the series, was like the ruptures, the rifts, repairing, etc.,

One of the truly like instantly iconic moments of season two for us in real time was Corlys saying the ditherers of Dragonstone. How fair are they, the ditherers of Dragonstone? So we know what esteem he holds Rhaenyra's council in, right? Yeah.

Yeah. But he's looking for purpose. He's looking for newfound purpose. And so when we see him close his hand around the pin, the hand of the Queen pin near the end of the fifth episode, we can deduce certainly that he has made his decision to move forward and accept this offer. How is Corliss going to reconcile Corliss?

how he feels about his new political bedfellows with his, what seems to be like a real need to entrench himself again in something that gives him meaning and some sort of mooring. I think, I think his attitude to them would be very much like his attitude to Viserys's small council.

I don't think he had much respect for any of them. I think he kind of liked Daemon, or at least he sort of, I mean, he would keep him at arm's length, but he was like, okay, he's useful. I think he thought Viteris was a nice man, but not a very nice king.

But one of the things that I always felt when I was sitting there was like, I'm better than all of you. You just do a lot of talking, which ain't been anywhere yet, done anything. And I think that is what you take into, he takes into the small count. And in fact, I think after the, oh gosh, yes, after the scene where Renisa said to him, I forget which episode it is, but she says to him something like, after the thing about with Alan, I know who he is. She then says something like,

Jace and Baylor are going to be eaten alive by this council she goes back and then he comes along to back her up and say one of the things he says as he walks in something like is this what we're doing we're just going to be scrabbling for power yeah

He is aware of the gravity and aware of the power and the esteem in which he is held. And I don't think, one of the things I like about him is that he doesn't suffer fools. To me, despite his complicated relationship with Rhaenyra, she's the only one on that council that's worth anything as far as he's concerned.

She could be a half-decent ruler as far as he's concerned, I think. We're going to send this soundbite to Sir Alfred Broom. You're not worth shit, Alfred. You heard it directly from the sea snake. I know you said you hadn't read the book. I think that's a really valid approach to all of this. We're obsessive book readers. So it was like a bit of a lore update for us, this

of the nine voyages, as Bela puts it, is like something that you did for Rhaenys, that it was all for her. In the book, it's a bit more like about building up his house, building up his bank account, building up all this sort of stuff. I'm curious, you know,

How that idea either changes your idea of Corlys, does it make him even more of a romantic for you? Or was he always that way? Or what is the backstory that you've concocted of Corlys out on the Nine Voyages thinking of Princess Rhaenys Targaryen?

I think, and again, this is purely conversations that Eve and I have had. We didn't have any of this discussion with Ryan, so he may well contradict what I'm about to say. But I feel that Corliss had been on a couple of those voyages. He'd seen her. He liked her. He knew he had to build himself up to...

call for her hand basically and I decided that they were at a ball somewhere maybe it was around um voyage three or four and he makes an approach to her and he says to her I'm going to marry you you're the one that I want and she says something along the lines of and you'd have to ask Eve she says something along the lines of well you're gonna have to earn me and I think that's what he does that's that's just my own romantic little story I love it

Yeah, that he's like, of course he's trying to build himself up. And he's had that thing in a, there's a scene with myself and Matt, Damon in episode two, I think of season one, where he's trying to persuade Damon. Second sons. Second sons, yeah. Right. Talk about, he said, I built this all by myself. So there's still that part of him. It's still about self-aggrandizement, but also it's like, this is the woman.

that I need to be with and I will do whatever I have to to get her. And I love that. I love that idea of both the two of them. We have just a couple quick rapid fire questions to close out. I'm going to ask you what we asked you and Mitchell last week, which is make the case for team, your team, team black. Why should we be team black versus team green right now, right now in the story?

Right. Do you know why? Because this is a realm which is built on law and precedent. The king himself named his daughter. This is the person. Half of the people who are now on Team Green are the same ones who came to that hall and they bent the knee to her and pledged allegiance. When you give your word, you give everything. So that alone is the reason. And we're just nicer people. I love this.

I agree. We're just nicer people. We agree. Yeah. We ride hard for Team Black over here. We're very much Team Black. Yes, absolutely. Good. Thank you. We've lost one of our co-hosts to Team Green. It's been dismaying to watch in real time. I don't understand the argument for Team Green, to be honest with you. Neither do I. I don't understand at all. Okay. So when we knew we were going to have the privilege of chatting with you, we knew where we were going to end the interview. This is the most important question. Correct. Okay. Okay.

It's been a great season. Lots of highlights. Here's our favorite moment so far. It's Corlys and Rhaenys in bed together and Rhaenys talking about how, you know, the idea of command. Daemon's not going to let Rhaenyra command him. And Corlys says, pity, I have on occasion found that to be quite enjoyable. So here's a final question for you. What can you tell us about Corlys and Rhaenys' sex life? It's all we've thought about since that moment. Correct.

Well, oh, I've not been asked that. Well, you know, whenever we're interviewed together, Eve will always say, you know, that their partners and so forth, and she will always say, and they've got a rocking sex life. So I'm going to go with that. Whatever images that gives you, please run with them. That's as much like it.

Excellent. Fantastic. All right. We have permission to spark some new fan fiction here. That's all we needed. I'll get started right away. Thank you so much. This has been a blast. Thank you. Treat. Thank you so much. Cheers. Thanks. Okay.

Mallory, I love you being you. Delightful. Thank you. Always yourself. It's one of the things I love most about you and doing this with you. It can always be me. It can always be you. A gift, truly. It is time now for the book look ahead, which means if you do not want any spoilers about what awaits in the story, it's time for you to pull a brand and say, I'm going to go now. Joanna.

I have a question for you about Hugh Hammer after his It's Just Meat line. What does his seeming lack of reverence for the dragons mean in terms of his impending bond with a dragon? I think it's just going to be so important to him that, like, his family is what matters. His family...

connected to TumbleToon. Yeah, that was incredible. That was great. Can you explain to listeners who don't know why? Yeah, so TumbleToon will be the site of the Great Betrayal.

Where Hugh and Ulf will switch sides. Hugh and Ulf, who claim dragons, are riding for Team Black, will change sides and ride for Team Green. And the question is why? Yeah. So do you think, because I've been assuming with this budding riot that his family was maybe in jeopardy and also his kid's illness. But then now I do feel like the counterweight to that is that at least someone needs to be alive in his family for him to be pulled to the other side. Yeah, I thought his wife,

wife and his child were going to die in the riot in King's Landing and that was going to drive him over to Dragonstone to claim a dragon. Now I think he's going to send them off to Tumbleton or something like that. He's going to dragon ride for Rhaenyra and then when shit goes down at Tumbleton, Yeah.

His betrayal. Will connect to his family tie that we've then spent time with. Correct. I think so, too. It is going to be wild when they're like, Vermithor, Silverwing, the former mounts of Jaehaerys, the old king and the good Queen Alisaine. And then they're like, Hugh Hammer and Ulf. Ulf. Come on now. Great. What's all this then? Dude, I have missed Ulf. Ulf has been tragically missing from our lives. Yeah.

If we don't get old next week, I riot in King's Landing. Okay. What's next? Lock the gates. Yeah. Okay. Yeah. The taking of King's Landing, which we think we are aligned now, is probably going to, like, here's how I envision it, among many other things. Yeah. Damon and Rhaenyra come together to take King's Landing together. Yes. That he extricates himself from the clutches of Harrenhal enough to go with Rhaenyra to take King's Landing at the end of the season. Yes. And part of the taking of King's Landing is,

A key part of that is that Damon still has friends in the gold cloaks. Uh-huh. And they're able to sneak them... Yes. Sneak people into the city. Yes. This idea of, like, lock the gates, but...

Damon has connections with the Gold Cloaks, who we already saw let Alinda in in this episode. Never forget how blood greeted him. Commander! Yeah. Can we talk about the flip side of that? Yeah. Which is, Aemon, I mean, they can only take the city if Aemon and Vhagar have left. Yes. Damon and Alice just talk about...

Aemond in this episode? That fool Aegon is unlike to survive. The realm will suffer if Aemond one-eye rolls. You should pray you never meet him. He will cut you down as soon as wish you good day. I heard the same about you. So, do you think all of this is going to happen in the next three episodes? It's sort of either they both happen or neither of them happen. I think my, the way I'm visioning it. Yeah. Sowing into fish feed into taking of King's Landing? Yeah.

It's complicated. And if we had more time, I would go into full detail. We talked about a lot of trial by content of how I think it's all going to go. But I do think Aemond walking into an empty Heron Hall is the—and maybe meeting Alice or not, but probably meeting Alice. Right.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. FN. Like, that's it. So he's going to arrive at Heron Hall. And realize he fucked up. And he's going to be like, what the fuck? And then we cut to King's Landing and Rhaenyra and Daemon are like, surprise. Yeah. We're here. We save the cut by the throne for another time. I still like that as the final shot. I hope that happens for you.

You had asked if Aemon would be vulnerable again. I think we will see that with Alice, right? I hope so. And then this is a fun guessing game. If Aemon gets haunted at Harrenhal, who do you think he sees? This is literally the only thing currently that gives me a different theory for timeline for the rest of the season. Those mystery shots from the trailer of Alicent, like by the God's eye.

what we thought might be the God's eye, those dreamy lake shots of her. Are those going to be Eamon's mommy dreams at Harrenhal? Will he arrive in time to have some sort of Harrenhal dream plot this season? It honestly doesn't seem possible based on how much time is left, but I am like, what are those Alicent shots otherwise? That's a good question. I mean, is it definitely a lake and not

Could just be the Blackwater. They're just by the bay. Could just be a really big bathtub. They summed in a larger bathtub. She loves a bathtub. Here's some theories I have. Yes, hit me. We get Leo back to play young Amos, and he sees a younger version of himself. I hope so. He was great. Ty Tennant could show up. Would be the thrill of my life.

It would be the thrill of my life. Don't even put these notions in my mind. Okay. Because now if that doesn't happen. Luke. That would also be great. That kid's probably getting taller by the day, so they got to hurry that up. But, you know. Will A-Rax make an appearance? Maybe. Yeah. You're like, you really fucked me, man. My wingman. Okay. The pink tread? Oh.

To go back to Taking King's Landing. Yeah. Are you on Gwaine Hightower Death Watch? I feel like by not putting him in the City Watch, they've protected him. Okay, great. And if that is in fact the case, it was the right choice. Yeah. And they should keep him around for as long as possible. Because Gwaine Hightower could die. Simon Strong and Gwaine Hightower, two of our favorite new characters. No. Could both die in the finale. No. No.

As Aemon takes Harrenhal and... So Simon, while that will be agonizing, I do feel like we've just gotten more time with him and it will be such a memorable time by the end. I actually, I mean, who knows when the next two episodes ring, but just don't think actually we've gotten enough from Gawain. Agree. Sunfire. Obviously Sunfire's not dead. Hashtag Sunfire lives.

In terms of curious shots in the trailer that we can't explain, there's a shot of Bela on Moondancer that was not part of the sort of like attack on Kristen and Gwaine where she looks like she's like screaming or yelling or in some kind of agony. Mm-hmm.

So that could be her, like, we're fucking taking King's Landing face. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Or she has this line in the episode about Rhaenys where she says, the thought of her lying in a field broken amongst her enemies. Will she go to find her grandmother's body and encounter long in the dying sunfire? And to have this, like, early Sunfire Moondancer encounter. That would be great to set up, though. To set up their later encounter where Moondancer does not win.

I mean, in a sense, nobody wins. That's a real nobody wins one. Brutal stuff. Well, I like, yeah, I like that. Because when we were speculating that maybe based on preseason trailers, Bela and Moondancer would be a part of Rook's Rest, which we had questions about, but that was the kind of, in addition to the Rainy's Bela Bond, that was kind of the exciting part. It was like a Sunfire and Moondancer connection early. Yeah, that would be fun. What else here? The sewing.

Anything else you want to say about this? What about the Reina line? Did that make you... Made me so mad. Yeah. Did it make you feel like... I am like one million percent on board that she's going to claim she's Stealer of the Veil. Yeah. This is happening.

Yeah, except George just told us that the dragons don't travel to other places. The veil's not that far. Just a quick nosh. A quick nosh and then back. Just stealing sheep in the veil. If anyone's going to do a sheep stealer, the dragon. There's a shot from the trailer of Reyna. I showed it to Dave Gonzalez. She's in the veil. She's like looking up. I showed it to Dave Gonzalez. He's like, she could be looking at anything, Joanna. It's like, sure. But like...

A sheep? But like... Them like raising the baskets. The fact that Reyna's there and she's like, and Jane's like, where's my big dragon? This idea that Lena is in this episode saying, what about our daughters? And if Reyna slides into the role of the girl Nettles, which is the character from the book for anyone who's listening and doesn't read the book. Pray for our pal David Jacoby if Nettles doesn't make it. Oh God. But like if Reyna claims the dragon sheep stealer, becomes a dragon rider. Yeah.

Damon is like proud of her for the first time in their life, Toxic. Tough one. And takes her under his wing. As you know, I've been pro, I like the Reyna subbing in for Nettles. I think it fits very cleanly. And the idea of the history is being like, they were fucking. It's like, maybe not. Also, now that we've seen some stuff from Damon. Maybe so. Who knows? Who knows? Horrible. Did you, did you see that? Did I share with you or did you see the theory about the, like the other part of Reyna claiming sheepstealer having to do with the gay abandon plot?

This idea that Rhaenyra tasks Rhaena with going to Pentos with the kids. And if she's like, don't worry, I put the toddlers on the boat, but I'm here with the dragon to help you. And then shit goes south on the boat with the toddlers. And Rhaenyra blames Rhaena for that because she's like, I asked you to watch them. So that resentment that she has towards the girl Nettles is transpired.

you know, transferred to Reyna because she's like, you had one job, watch the babies, not play the dragon. Yeah. I mean, we have like a lot of, I like that. A lot of things need to

start building toward not just the paranoia, but Rhaenyra just feeling like people are, like, letting her down a lot. Relatedly, on the Jace front with Gullet and trying to go rescue the kids, when she said, like, and you are my son and I did not give you leave to go...

There's a shot in the – there's a shot in the – they released this last week, a new, like, sort of Weeks Ahead trailer. And so not in the next time on, but there's a shot in the Weeks Ahead trailer of Jace at Dragonstone watching all these dragons fly away. So they're all going to King's Landing. All the dragon seeds get to go. And Jace is grounded at Dragonstone. And that, I feel like, sets him up perfectly at the beginning of next season to be like –

There's no way that I won't go. Yeah. Ugh. Left alone in Dragonstone. So that way, Jace is not at King's Landing because he wouldn't be because by that time in the book, he's dead. He's not at King's Landing. He's stuck at Dragonstone. He's pissed. He's got his hand on his pommel. His cheekbones are popping. The curls are working. And he's like, I gotta go. And a ton of confidence because he's winning. Racking up wins. Bent knees.

The dragon seed plan was his idea and he has to stay behind a dragonstone? Yet another tough one here for Mushroom. Okay.

It is. Where is Mushroom to receive the credit he deserves? What else here? The sewing. Stefan. Yeah. Slouching in the chair. I'm glad that he had time amid all of this to get a nice haircut and a shave. Looking great. Looking great. So Stefan Darklin is one of the would-be Dragon Riders who does not make it. He's like, we need to avenge Duskendale. So you know he's going to volunteer. The storming.

The storming of the dragon pit. They are setting this up well. I agree. Like, the discontented rumors are feed line, and this is at this point in the story, it's an anti-green, let's use this for Team Black kind of concept. And to know that this will...

Turn on Rhaenyra. Bite them so hard in the ass. And be such a devastating moment. There's a shot in the Weeks Ahead trailer of like a poster of a dragon with like a red circle through it or whatever. Pulled off the wall, yeah, yeah. This sort of like anti-dragon propaganda. So is that what Elinda Massey and Diana like in their bespoke like very Newsies-esque print shop printing up anti-dragon posters. Oh, man. Anti-dragon prop posters.

And then, again, the danger of starting up the crowd. Yeah. And then that crowd then turning on anyone with a dragon, not just the greens. Yeah. That will be a quite short-sighted decision because ultimately their aim is to take King's Landing. It's too bad. I really do want Misaria to have good ideas. That would be a tough one. Here we are. A tough one. Oh, what else? So, obviously, Baelor rejecting Corlys' offer to be heir. We're just one step closer to Alan. Our guy. Yeah.

Hour of the Wolf. Well, Alan first has to get very badly burned. And then he gets to be heir to Driftmark. I'm excited for Alan and Adam to be more present in the story. Be part of the cast? Yeah, I agree. Hour of the Wolf felt like a nice little... Don't worry, Cregan's going to come back. You're getting your Hour of the Wolf eventually. Nod to us. Fish feed. Fish feed being a battle that happens at the shore of the God's Eye. The bloodiest land battle ever.

No dragons are supposed to be there. I do have some questions about this. Again, we talked about this a lot in Trial by Content, but I have a question about like, they need to come up with some other characters to be at the fish feed for us to be interested in the fish feed. This has been my thing the whole time. Like, I just don't, I actually don't think it's a successful or interesting climactic thing.

thrust of the season if it's like Jason Lannister and the Greybeards and a bunch of characters we don't really give a shit about. So they have to get a couple people who are invested in it. They have to put Kristen and Gwaine there. Yeah. They have to... If there's...

A shot from the trailer of Daemon in front of, like, all the tents, the encampment. Yeah. So if Daemon's there and he's like, I'm going to fight with you guys. That's the easiest. And then he just sort of, like, solve. But if that happens simultaneously with the whole, like, Harrenhal, King's Landing bait and switch. Yeah. If Daemon's like, let's go. And then just fucks off on Caraxes. Yeah.

Great stuff. That would be really funny to me. Oh, man. And then they just slaughter each other. So do you think we're going to see the sewing, like based on what they showed us for the, you know, coming next week, we definitely see some dragon stuff. But do you think like we're going to see the sewing in, is it sewing in full in episode six, fish feed in seven, taking King's Landing in eight, or is it just set up in six and then sewing in seven? Well, I think the sewing, let's imagine the sewing takes place

sort of spread out a bit. Because I think you're going to get the sewing with like Ulf and Hugh. Yeah. But Adam and Seasmoke is going to happen a little differently. So it's not going to be this like big, hey everyone come. It's going to be part of it. But I think Adam and Seasmoke is happening differently. And I think Reyna and Shape Sealer is happening differently. Do you know what I mean? But I do think there's going to be a big like come one, come all. Get your ass torched by dragons. Yeah. Also the triarchy. Yeah.

Are going to have to be involved somehow. We are running out of time for that to not feel like it came out of nowhere in this season. Well, they've been like dropping the faintest of hints about the coffers being empty. Small ones. I think the fish feed and the taking of King's Landing are all a thing in eight. Yeah. So you've got six and seven to do everything else. Exciting. It's a lot. Can't believe we only have three left. It's sad. What a joy it has been. A delight.

A delight. Thank you to you. Thank you to you. It's a wrap. They're warworks of barbarity. Thank you to Preston the Rat. Yes, thank you, Preston. Appreciate you joining us. And thank you to our small council, as always. Steve Allman, of course. Our junior room good pal, of course. That's... Jomia Deneron on the social, of course. Yeah. And then we got a whole crew.

of pals helping us today with the video. Corey McConnell was here briefly. Thank you, Corey. Jack Sanders has been here for the entire thing. Great stuff. Thank you, Jack. Mark, thank you to Mark for helping out today. John will be back with us soon. So thank you to the entire squad. We will see you on Thursday. Wait, one more thing. Steve Tislin for joining us.

Thank you, Steve Toussaint, for joining us for that wonderful chat. We will see you on Thursday for our Acolyte finale, Deep Dive, and then Sunday night right after the latest hot D for Talk of the Thrones. Until then... What is it, Sir Tymon? Is the pudding now served?