'House of the Dragon' Season 2, Episode 6 Reactions | Talk the Thrones
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Hello, and welcome to Talk the Thrones. We are here to break down the sixth episode of the second season of House of the Dragon. I'm Chris Ryan. This is Ringer senior staff writer Joanna Robinson. That is the Dragon Mount janitor herself, Mallory Rubin. It's getting hot in here. Wow. Warm.

Before we get started, I just want to remind everybody, make sure you're subscribed to House of R on Spotify or wherever you get podcasts. Make sure you're subscribed to the Ringerverse on Spotify or wherever you get podcasts. And make sure you're subscribed to Ringerverse on YouTube so you can watch us and tons of other stuff. Yeah. Hey, this episode of House of the Dragon was pretty interesting. Hey. Um...

I want to ask you, between how to train your dragon, Amon shuffling his cabinet, Rhaenyra finding love in a hopeless place, this is for both of you, what was the most interesting thing that happened in this episode? What's the big headline? Oh, the biggest, most important thing I think is that Jason Lannister is for some reason bringing a lion to the castle.

To battle. Yeah. And I thought I should bring a lion to the podcast today, but I didn't have one. But, yeah. They're waiting in some wheelhouses over there. Yeah, should I make mine that we finally got to see baby little hatchling storm cloud and we just, like, talk about natural creatures? But is that, like, legit? Or do you really think that's what, like, people should go away from this episode thinking about? Yeah, that we saw a tiny little storm cloud? Yeah. No. I think the headline is that this was an episode about...

Deeply broken people finally saying to themselves or out loud to another person, I am lost. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. I need help. It's my fault. I need help or let me help you. Good. And it was beautiful. It was like succession then. Okay. Let's break down the sixth episode of the second season here. We're going to do the recap. Let's do it, man. Let's do it.

It's Jason in the streets and Tylan in the sheets, baby. No? Yeah. The great machine of war grinds on in this episode as both sides try to amass power, whether it's through air superiority, ground game, or backroom political dealing. I wonder where that comes from. We see Tylan Lannister's twin brother, Jason, who is taking in the sights at the Golden Tooth. Yeah.

Is that a new one for the whole Game of Thrones televised universe? I don't think we've seen the Golden Tooth yet. You like a little key border position between the Westerlands and the Riverlands? Absolutely.

Jason's got a line in tow. He loves the Lannister twin. I do. You genuinely do. The slow march towards Harrenhal continues. Back in King's Landing, Aemon is acting more kingly by the day, which is to say he's being a bit of an asshole. He wants to partner with the Triarchy. He wants Kristen to march on Harrenhal, even though a lot of his men still have ash on their armor. A lot of headbandages. I know, in the courtyard, a lot of headbandages. And he wants his mother...

Take up a hobby. Allison, get off this council. He still likes his grandfather, though, and he wants Otto to be his hand, provided Otto can be found. Speaking of hands, Corlys is done listening to Mazzy's star in his room and decides to join the war effort. In his first council meeting as Rhaenyra's hand, his queen unveils her new app, Rider. R-I-D-R, kind of...

Did you trademark that before putting that out into the world, the public domain here? I thought about it. Matching randos with royal blood with Seasmoke, the dragon who loves meeting new people. Sir Darklyn, come on down.

Darks is a really good sport about this, but he gets to the final Rose presentation with Seasmoke, and pride comes before the fall. And just like the San Antonio Spurs in the 2013 NBA Finals, he starts celebrating too early, getting incinerated by his would-be dragon partner. RIP also to the trainer, armed only with a stick, who's going to be the first to be in the final.

who cut his own throat while dying in a fire. I mean, he had the dagger. He had the dagger ready for the throat slicing. It seems like he was more prepared to die in fire than train the dragon. Correct. That was such a shocking moment that it made me wonder if it was a Valerian blood mage ritual. It just seems like the fire would kill you. Why slit your own throat? It just seems like

It just seems like flammable sticks is not what I would use to hurt a dragon. That's true. You got to get some sort of plastic. At Harrenhal, Daemon's visions have reached stunt casting proportions, and he's now recreating moments of his life with his late brother, King Viserys. Paddy Considine is back, but playing much of the same material he had in season one. And after our confrontation with Alice by the Weirwood Tree, Daemon starts to realize his place in the world. He's a piece, not a player.

His reward for listening to Alice? She sends an owl hitman to kill an old man Grover Tully, thus putting the Riverlands houses back on the board for the Blacks, I believe.

So this is your new

I don't think so. And Ulf is finding himself susceptible to anti-Greens gossip. I don't know why people are talking trash about the Greens. They're kind and caring people. Just ask Aegon. Oh, you can't, because when he's not sleeping, he is loopy on Milk of the Poppy or getting mad-dogged by his brother. The only person who seems to have his best interest at heart is Lara Strong. The two bond over deformity and being spurned by Aemond.

But one can never really trust Lyris's intentions, can they? Correct. Alicent Hightower has a bunch of free time now because her husband's dead, her dad is in the wind, and she's been dismissed from the Green Council and her lover is on his way back to war. So she reconnects with her brother and then takes Helena on a hellish adventure into the city. Their candle lighting trip coincides with a riot over dwindling food surprise among other

food supplies among the small folk. This ends with knights slaughtering said small folk, which will do wonders for the greens polling in King's Landing. Two more things happen. Misaria and Rhaenyra kiss, and Adam claims sea smoke, I think, as his dragon and starts riding around Spicetown. I approve of both of these developments. And that was the recap.

Balanchine. Christopher. I thought we could start from a kind of 10,000 foot above question. Dragon's idea. Dragon's point of view. Yeah. This is an interesting episode because...

Compared to the sort of chunk of the middle of the season that had us all running around in circles, we can't believe how insane this is. You know, we had Renice, we had Jaehaerys' death or whatever. Yeah, or whatever. Guy, little baseball hat. The twins, Eric and Arik, you cannot forget them. Eric and Arik, that one really threw me for a loop. You know, Game of Thrones, when they made the first series on HBO, it had so much...

like, guidance from the text, right? Like, George R.R. Martin explaining character psychology through these POV chapters. So much action taking place in multiple locations that was eventually, like, you could see everything kind of converging. But the journey was the fun part. Yeah, and then they ran out of text and it was fine. It was fine. They ran out of text and they nailed it. Equally as eloquent. Yeah.

And sensical? I would say that I'm starting to notice in House of the Dragon that they're balancing the fact that they have, like, I don't know, not that much text to work from, right? So they're imbuing a lot of these characters with psychology, with motivation, with moments of reflection that I think probably are show inventions and show embellishments. Not that that's a bad thing at all, but I was wondering if for readers like yourselves, you're starting to notice...

Any of these sort of like the stitching going on? Yeah, I mean, we've been talking about this, I think, for the entirety that we've been covering House of the Dragon in that this, in the first season, there was this idea that the show was the real story. Yeah. The book, because it's told from multiple people's, I heard this, I was there, I was this septon, a mushroom who wasn't there, had an idea about what happened. Stand with mushroom. So the show is the real story. Yeah.

Since George R. R. Martin has said in an interview, he's like, no, there's no real story. So it's all sort of whatever you decide. The TV show is a story. The book is a story. But until I guess George R. R. Martin writes a whole other book series with POV chapters, no one can nail down exactly what happened. Unless it comes down to how many legs a dragon has and then there is in fact one real story. A lot of firm opinions on that. George has a lot of firm opinions. How many legs does a dragon have?

That's what I thought. But not on the... On the Targaryen sigil. Targaryen sigil on the show and you're on a very long blog. The wings are the front feet. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Is the sort of idea. We'll send you the link. I guess I haven't really ever considered that to be honest. We'll send you some readings. George has. We'll send you some readings. George has it covered. But so, yeah, I like this question because I think what we like to do when we compare the text to the show is wonder like, okay, if the stories are so different...

If in this section of the story they're like, Raniro wasn't really around and we're watching Raniro do all this stuff, then...

To whose advantage is it to say Raniro wasn't really around or locking the gates of the city was Allison's idea or whatever else the differences are from the page to the screen? What is the propaganda essentially that we're reading here and whose point of view does it cut out? Whose agency does it undermine and who is it propping up? I'm almost starting to think of it as pro-green propaganda. The show? Interesting question.

Interesting. Written by Chris Ryan? Yeah. Mr. Green? It's working. It's working. We know, we see. Yeah, one of the passages from Fire and Blood that Joe and I love and love to cite is, and here we must digress to say a word about our sources. For much of what happened in the years that followed happened behind closed doors and the privacy of stairwells, council rooms, and bed chambers. And the full truth of it will likely never be known. And I think that felt like

a huge part of why I loved this episode. Like, this was an episode that captured that idea. Are there going to be different accounts of what happened at Rook's Rest? Sure. We've already talked about that. Like, your king fought valiantly. He didn't. Who knows what Aemond did? He's valiant. He just lost, right? Yeah, well,

Yeah, well, there are still different versions of events. Writing really hard for Team Green. I see it. You are. Boy, you're hooked, man. You're in the bag. The green bag. I love it. But so like, even something that is out and that public and taking place in front of that many eyes, there are still going to be different accounts. But this was an episode like showcase after showcase, vignette after vignette of the private conversation. And I think a throne story at its best

has to be a blend of those two things. And so to get all of these moments in this episode between like two people or a few people, maybe it's in your mind or your dreams, if you're Damon, right? Maybe if you're Allison, it's at the small council chamber when your son keeps you after. Maybe it's out in the courtyard with all these people around you, but seemingly like the first honest conversation you and your brother have had with each other in years, right?

that particular meld is what Game of Thrones can offer. Like that heart and substance and the spectacle in a way that very other few stories can. So I really loved this episode for that reason. I thought there was a really fun example inside this episode when Ulf...

when Sylvie and Diana are earning their Oscars for their performance for Massaria in the pub, where they're like, oh, did you hear what's going on in the castle? They're raving again. And Ulf is sitting there and he's like, well, you know, Viserys loved his feasts and his wine, but never while the small folk went without. And if you look in the Fireblood book,

the drawing of Viserys is just like party king Viserys. It's just him jovial on the throne with like a flag and a wine and they do talk a bunch about like he loved his wines. He had a lot of feasts. He had a lot of tourneys. That's not our impression of Viserys. Our impression of Viserys is he loved a Lego. Yeah. He loved his history books.

You know, and so this idea of, like, Viserys, jovial party king is something that, like, came about afterwards from people like Ulf, you know? I think that the thing that I noticed is in Game of Thrones, it felt like almost every moment of that show wound up having a ripple effect on another moment. Like, just, or, like, the next thing felt like it was related to the thing that came before. In this show, I feel like...

Strangely enough, but also pleasantly enough, the main characters are largely isolated. I mean, they are forced out of either...

gender roles or the fact that they are the only reason why this revolution is happening in terms of Rhaenyra or the fact that they've decided to go to Harrenhal for a sleepless, like, dream quest. Yeah. They're not, like, out there in the world doing stuff right yet. So it's like a lot of this is almost psychological speculation, which I think is kind of interesting, but I was especially struck, Joe, by this big Mysaria episode, which I believe, if my sources are correct...

was a bit of a show invention at the end that Misaria and Rhaenyra... Are starting something. Got a little thing going on. Yeah. And you liked it. It's cool, man. Yeah. Same. Mallory, did you hear the Alicent and Rhaenyra shippers like... My first thought. ...cheer and scream with joy? That was my first thought. I think it's great. I think it's really interesting. Yeah, this is completely... Misaria is in...

Rhaenyra's confidence. That's, you know, something that we knew. But like, but how close in her confidence we are finding out. And I think it's really interesting because like Rhaenyra is talking about, she's got that like her daemon, daemon, daemon line. Like, when will I ever be free of him? This idea that Rhaenyra has been defined as like

Daemon's wife, Viserys's daughter, Jace's mother, like all this sort of stuff like that. And she's like, when will someone see me? Just as like, I am Queen Rhaenyra. I see you, girl. You look good with a sword. It looks good on you. I love it. I really loved it. Mysaria. Share trauma. Exactly. Trauma bond and then make out. Sounds like a great Sunday night. But I think Mysaria, and we'll talk a little bit later about Larys, and

And Alice are these three figures, like parallel figures, who all make this like bid of like intimacy and vulnerability to get closer to power. But there's an authentic like sharing and vulnerability inside of it as well that I just really loved. I...

Rhaenyra seems to be wrestling with what kind of queen she wants to be and what kind of mother she wants to be. The kind that slaps people in hallways. That's right. Tough one for Keltigar, but I loved it. I loved it too. What kind of soldier, what kind of lover she wants to be. And I've been, you know, I think I've been more focused on Daemon's isolation, Mel, but Rhaenyra's

Like, she's been telling us. She's like, I can't fight the war that I'm being asked to fight because I'm too valuable, quote unquote, because this whole thing falls apart if it's not me specifically. Right. And so I'm kind of isolated here and every time I have to do something that requires a sacrifice, I have to send somebody else. Right. And that's all I really want to do is like kind of

put my money where my mouth is and I'm not allowed. It's been an interesting journey for her over the last couple of episodes. The quickness with which she made her way to the Dragon Mount. Yeah, and hopped on Cyrax. To hop on Cyrax at the end. Like, there was a desperate need for her.

To get out into the free air, away from all of these people who are saying this is what you can do, this is what you can't do. I thought that the way that she spoke about Jace to Massaria was really interesting because she's like my own son questions my capabilities. How will I rule a kingdom when my own son doubts me? But what did we hear from, and I'm not saying that's not true. He is like, go get Daemon, we need Daemon, you have to stay. But he is doing that also. But he was like, my ruler is my mother and I do not wish it otherwise. Yeah.

I mean, he says that, but he also says, like, Mom, did you slap someone in the hallway? Well, he seemed to just really get into the gossip. He's like, the castle is a bus. In front of everyone. A bus. The trending topics are myriad. But I thought that was notable because...

There's a lot of positive stuff happening with Jason Raniere. They are undertaking this mission for pairing Riders and Dragons together. There is a partnership there amid the isolation that everybody is feeling. And yet because of those factors that I think you're absolutely correctly identifying, everything is amplified and feels a little bit more keen. And so I love that we got to hear Raniere basically explain this.

why she and Daemon were drawn to each other in the first place, which sort of tells us that before any of this, before the Dance of the Dragons, all of those things were still true, right? Someone like Daemon was going to feel like he didn't have the love of the person he cared about most in the world, Viserys, but Rhaenyra did, and he coveted that. Rhaenyra was going to think, like, I don't get to be free. I don't get to do the thing I want. I'm not a man, but Daemon is.

Like, it made me think of the conversation we had at the beginning of the season when you were like, is love dead? Yeah. We talked about, well, was that ever what it was with them? And when she says two halves of one whole, it's like there was almost a practical but, like, also reckless need that brought the two of them together. We can do something if we are united that neither of us can alone. And that's what so much of this episode is about, fellowships and unions and, like,

Amen firing two-thirds of his small council. Sending away specifically Kristen, Allison, to the people who know him best. Yeah. The people who hold him in some sort of judgment. And then the people who are the most inclined to question him. He doesn't want that, right? He says he doesn't like lick spittles, but he doesn't want people who are questioning him sitting at that table. Why does he keep Orwell there, though? Because Orwell's the most sassy of all the small council members. Great run for Orwell. There's a moment later in the episode when, I mean, it's probably my favorite scene of the episode where the

where Gwaine and Allison are talking. This was wonderful. It's a really lovely scene just between the performers, but the writing is really good because you hear about how specifically royal families in this world just don't really know each other.

Like they're either married off, they're sent away to be wards, they go off to war, they may have different fathers and different, you know, whatever like the situation familially is. And it was like, is this the first time these two have ever had a conversation? Add it to which she doesn't know her other brother Darren at all. Her son. Yeah, her son, right. Her other son Darren. She's like, I'm kind of like a stranger to my own family in that way.

What she really needed in that moment is to know that at least one of, well, Helena's pretty chill with her crickets that sing or don't. This one's not singing anymore. Have one. Helena. Just one. But, you know, like, Aegon's goo and Aemond is like, you know, she's alluding to him being a monster multiple times in a season. And she's like, somehow. And this is the episode where she was like,

I don't think I did a great job as a mom, as evidenced by being fired by my son just now and the other one being a pile of goo. But what about Darren? Is he nice? And Gwaine, the way that Freddie Fox, who was so good in this scene, the way that he would occasionally just look across the courtyard at Kristen Cole, not make eye contact with her and look at Kristen Cole or...

the sort of like doom hanging around, like back to battle. He's still bruised and battled from the last one. But he has this moment where Freddie Fox, the actor, and Gwaine Hightower, the character, are just like, he's kind, which is just such a gift he gave Elizabeth. He's like, guess what? One of your sons isn't a psycho asshole. And I'm sure you did your best. Like it felt like that would be the most precious thing somebody could say to her, especially now. And we were all like,

Well,

An act of kindness. This is one of the things, again, there's always this connection between Allison's storyline and Rhaenyra's storyline. And this is one of the things. That's why I wrote it. Vissaria, yeah, voices to Rhaenyra. Like, why does she believe in Rhaenyra? Why did she choose Rhaenyra, right? And it's about being stalwart, which she's using to describe Rhaenyra. That's actually a word we hear Gawain use to describe Darren. So another kind of like direct tie there. But the grace, like finding just an iota of grace inside of you for another person in a world like this is,

It was beautiful to watch Gawain. And the Kristen looks were really striking because it felt to me like when she first began engaging Gawain in conversation, he was like, I know you're not here for me. Yeah. He definitely came out to say goodbye to Kristen. And she's like, I'm going to give you my favor. He's like, oh, how nice. Yeah. And then. Allison definitely had the vibes at the party where somebody is like, uh-huh, yeah, sure. Yeah. Oh, that's crazy. Yes. Definitely.

Yeah, and then, you know, so to your point, I mean, the Darren thing was, it led to that really poignant exchange. I absolutely,

I also thought it was just like a hysterical and like a wink to the audience who was so impatient for Darren that I actually genuinely like appreciate it. I know you've been waiting for Darren. Multiple mentions of Darren this season. You have like a countdown calendar, right? Definitely. You're hyped. Darren, who is her son. Third son, yes. But- Anxiously awaiting his arrival. We have. And has a dragon. Dragon named, no, we're not going to that spot. I don't know.

To the point, Chris, that you made about more broadly do these families know each other, inside of this exchange, Otto comes up. Otto comes up with Amand, right, in the hand conversation with Laris. We'll talk about that later. Deeply painful.

Deeply painful encounter. For Laris? For Laris. Yes. He's like, I never imagined I could possibly... Whenever I've been like, Laris seems like he's got some interesting emotional stuff going on. You guys are like, he's a piece of shit. No, I... No, I love Laris. And the great complex characters are always the fascinating ones. But so Eamon says...

Yeah, okay, bring Otto Hightower back, he's gonna be my hand. My grandsire may be overcautious, but his devotion to his family has never been in doubt. Then we go to that- I think he fires his mom. Yes, but we go to that Gawain-Allison conversation and she's like, have you heard from dad? He's like, well, if he were gonna write a letter, it wouldn't be to me. Yeah. You were his favorite. And so you have Otto propped up as this guy who cares about his family, is devoted to his family endlessly. Yeah.

What does that actually mean? He's devoted to the advancement of the Hightower agenda. Does he care about any of the people who are a part of that family, though? But what's wild is, like, if we go back to season one, it wasn't even Otto the main driver of that agenda. Right, he was being driven by his brother. Yeah. I mean, this is not actually what we're talking about right now, but because we're talking about just, like, in general, the Greens, right?

What was your reaction, Chris Ryan, number one Crabfeeder fan, when the Triarchy got a shout-out? Like, where did this take you? This is why we do what we do. This is why we get up in the morning, is to get the Crabfeeder back in the mix. Well, he's dead. He's legacy. You know what I mean? Yeah. And also, Crabfeeder could just be a title. Like, maybe somebody from the Triarchy is like, Crabfeeder 2. This is why he's the...

I know. Judgment day. I love it. No, I was, first of all, glad that watching season one had a purpose. So, like, the first few episodes of season one being largely about this pirate that never really mattered would have been a bummer. So I'm glad the triarchy came back around. And I also love Eamon kind of being, like, full rebuild.

you know, I'm changing out like the front office here. No team of rivals. Team of only people. Team of agree with me. Of Lickspittles. Yeah. Lickspittles got, was a little heavy rotation in this episode. But Salubrious was also, that was really good. Salubrious was good.

All right, we can't really go much further without talking about dragon sewing. I did want to ask you both one last, obviously I can't believe I'm the one delaying dragon sewing. Christ, what a twist. But while we're on Eamon, because I don't know if we'll circle back to him, on the Sylvie front. Yeah.

What did you guys make of that? Sylvie's role in Massaria's, to the discontented rumors, was Sylvie always one of Massaria's little birds? Or is this a result of Amon's leaving her at the brothel and saying like one whore is as good as any other? I think it's the latter because if it was the former, I would have expected Massaria to be like, I have a line on Amon's psychology. Like I know what can hurt Amon. I know what Amon's sensitive about or vulnerable about. Now maybe that'll come up.

But to me, it was more like that's because of the way he treated her when those guys showed up. But it is, that sequence is really interesting because the two women there, Diana and Sylvie, Diana having been like,

Costed assaulted, raped by Aegon in season one, and then like Sylvie being humiliated. I mean, I thought that would just sort of be par for the course, like in terms of she's seen worse shit in the brothel, but like maybe she actually felt close to Aemon that actually hurt her. It could be both. It could be like a bit of both. She works for Miss Aria, but also- Yeah, she's always soaking up the intel. Yeah. Thought they had something. But these are two- Princess fight and small folk like me who suffer, and then he embarrasses her. These are two aggrieved-

You know, women who are like, oh, we're doing a PR campaign? Yeah, right. I'm in. Right. I'm in. All right, so let's talk about Seasmoke. Does he doth protest too much? Has he always been this tetchy? I mean, you're the one who said that you like to think about him doom-scrolling. So I really feel like your moment has arrived here. All right. We have a lot to talk about here. Wait, who's the sadder boy? Seasmoke or Kristen Cole? I definitely think Seasmoke is. That look that Kristen gave. Allison. You're starting to fall for it.

You're not immune to his charms. I would not say it's that. I would say it is, to me, really emblematic of how great the season has been. That they can take somebody who you think is deplorable and really make you feel for him. Do you think that this was maybe not your favorite episode of House of the Dragon because it had so little Chris and Cole for you to work with?

I mean, but I just like... He was like, please don't send me back to Harrenhal. Yeah, that's the thing is that I kind of do like these people being forced together into like close interior quarters because like you at least get that stuff. But like I'm glad that they are moving and I'm glad that, you know, I'm not, maybe not glad for Kristen Cole because it seems like odds are against him. But yeah. Yeah.

Fingers crossed for you that we get another sword cleaning vignette next week from him. It was great that he went from speed is my ally a couple weeks ago to like, why do we wait? Why do we wait? What if we didn't? Why do we wait? Go back to war. Just absolutely got incinerated out there.

out there. Could I please have a week to... Okay, so speaking of incineration, back to Seasmoke. Right. So how do we want to hit this? We want to talk about Stefan and then Adam. I want to talk about why that guy can't have like a slight fist pump before he gets on the dragon. Stefan? Okay, that's a great question. So this really... I feel like he played by the rules. He did what was asked of him. He gave Seasmoke like his full attention. It wasn't like he was like, eh. There isn't like one way to train a dragon, to claim a dragon. And it's like the dragon is as...

Much of a part of that as as the human so it's not like there are rules or steps you follow It's dragons are capricious Dragons are not horses. Yeah, this is a quote. They do not know Shaded horses dragons are on horses. They do not easily accept men upon their backs and when angered or threatened they attack. Here's another

a similar passage from elsewhere that kind of brought us this idea. We shall not pretend to any understanding of the bond between dragon and dragon rider. Wiser heads have pondered that mystery for centuries. We do know, however, that dragons are not horses. I don't know how you mentioned this. George is like, guess what? I got a line and I'm going to use it. They're not horses. They're not lickspittles, that's for sure. The I've done it, Stefan moment, this, I mean, it had to like, this is like the Nick Young moment.

Yeah, but you're allowed to be happy about your own achievements. The shot did not go in. Don't celebrate too early. Are you familiar with Harry Potter, Draco Malfoy, and Buckbeak the Hippogriff? I think you know the answer to that question. Yes, the answer is yes. Got a laugh from our show? No, from neither of us.

Well, it reminded me of that and how, like, you need to show the deference, and then Malfoy comes in and is like, fuck this. One of them got to ride, and one of them got an arm slash, you know? Just throwing that out there. Green apple legend, Malfoy. What did you think of the choice and how it was presented to Stefan from Rhaenyra? Oh, I thought that was very interesting. She's like, you know the risk. You signed the waiver. Like, you can't sue. I accept it with gladness. I just thought the whole ritual was interesting because, like,

This idea, a dragon is not a slave, something we learned from Daenerys Targaryen in Game of Thrones. And so the fact that they're like, obey, obey, serve, serve, obey. I was like, what is this language? Not sure they set the right mood. Right? That wasn't the tone at all. They're also singing the lullaby that we heard Daemon sing to Vermithor in the season one finale. So it's like a part of this...

ritual process. And Seasmoke is like, Seasmoke is like, I have specific needs. What would the track, what track would you play to get Seasmoke in the mood? Ooh, that's good. To claim him. That is just a perfect question for Chris Ryan. Guys, really, I'm on fire by Bruce Springsteen.

I mean, he was like, you felt his, this is what I loved about this. You felt how badly Seasmoke wanted that to work. He does bend his neck. He presents his saddle initially, and then he's not vibing. We hear from Rhaenyra that Seasmoke, who

who I believe misses his bond. Of course, we had had that Masaria-Raniera conversation earlier in the season, right, about that maybe he's lonely idea. It was funny when they were making out and the guy's like, we've spotted sea smoke over Spicetown. And she's like, he does that. But he's got it right all this time. Yeah, I don't know. He loves to just flirt. He's been flirting with Adam all season, though. We've already seen him flirting with Adam. And so I feel like to go off your, like, writer app idea, I feel like it's like,

You know, Seasmoke and Stefan Darklin were like, they were chatting or whatever, and then Seasmoke just, you know, and then Stefan, no, they matched, but then Stefan said something where Seasmoke's like, red flag, red flag, uh-uh, I'm going to go back to this other guy I was flirting with. That other guy happens to be Adam. Stefan's like, I'm just going to go play some NCAA 25. Is that cool? I just like low-key dragons. Can you keep it chill? And Seasmoke's like, I've got to go. I love that Seasmoke

Took matters into his own wings, right? He sought Adam out. He went and found the rider that he wanted. It made me think of that Aemond passage from when Aemond bonded with Vhagar in season one. And we talked about this passage from Fire and Blood. Call it boldness, call it madness, call it the fortune or the will of the gods or the caprice of dragons. You were alluding to this earlier. Who can know the mind of such a beast? Like,

We try to piece together any little kernel we get, and we have a big canon update that we should talk about in terms of a new kernel, a data point of what we understand about how a rider and a dragon compare. Okay. Which is, well, we'll hit that in a second. We'll hit that in a second. We around that. Yeah.

don't know anything. And the text constantly reminds us. And so every time we learn something new, it feels like this massive thing. But then we still have to ask ourselves, well, is that just like an outlier? Or is that a key variable? I just thought this was a really fun way to expose a blind spot for Rhaenyra, right? Because

The idea that Jason Renier came up with last week in the library is we'll look for our highborn distant cousins to claim. Noble blood, not bastard. No, not bastard. No, specifically noble blood. You know, and she says, when she's talking to Miss Ari, she's like, as if an ancient Valyrian beast could suffer a Darkland to ride it. She's just sort of like,

I went for House Darkly. Yeah, and last week she's like, put a Tarly on it, put a Malister on it, but she's looking for nobles. And the fact that Seasmoke's like, I spotted this really hot guy down by the docks, and I would like to pair with him, and she's going to find out, as we've all found out, that Adam is Corlys' bastard. And so then this idea of like, oh, maybe I shouldn't be looking at highborns. Maybe I should be looking at bastards instead. Does Corlys know about Adam at all? Yes. Okay. Yeah.

Yes. Because he knows about Alan because he's constantly like, you're my best friend now. Yes. But I just didn't know if he had seen. I've seen your hair when it grows out. I know that you're mine. No, he knows about both of them. He just hasn't said out loud as we hear the two brothers talk about like you are.

The translation that I think is key here for casual viewers of this show is that I think what your point was, which is that Rhaenyra's initial sort of like, I have this great idea, was still based on the supremacy of royal blood. Right. And now...

It's like, well, the royals do like to get around. There could be tons of these people around. Yeah. And we've probably seen a lot of them this season, you know, and like, that might be where this is going. Or do you need Targaryen blood at all? Yeah. That's still a question. That's a debate among raiders.

raiders. Yeah. Is it? Yeah. And so that was why last week when they were forging this plan, it was so great to hear Jay say Valerian history is written to gild us in glory and acknowledge that that's their own propaganda that they're putting out into the world. And when they survived the doom, all of these other dragon riding families are dead. You get to further-

your own exceptionalism and your proximity to the gods. And that's what Stefan says. He's like, I'm just a guy. Dragons are gods. I'm just a guy. And so they're further... And we talked about this last week, but this idea that a dragon head in the street is not great for the image that dragons are these god-like creatures or whatever. Or is anybody who's working at the docks might use that. Can ride a dragon, yeah. Yeah, and that conflict is really compelling. I'm interested to see how Rhaenyra responds because on the one hand, it is like,

okay, we have some potential here. Maybe we can cast a wider net. But it does compromise that sanctity of what it means to be the ruling Targaryen. Because their first reaction seems to be basically like, is it one of our riders? You know what I mean? Well, and then they're like, well, it must have been the Greens. They think it must have been the Greens. Do you have theories then for how...

I think there are five potential explanations for how Adam could pair. I have zero theories. One, anyone can ride. You don't need any special blood. Oh, okay. Yeah, right. Two, you need old Valerian blood. Like the blood of old Valeria. But you don't necessarily need- Valeria. Yeah. And he's a Valerian. Right. But you don't necessarily need Targaryen blood. Thanks, George. Okay. Three, Corlys does have some Targaryen blood somewhere in his- Yeah. Long time ago.

Line, right? Because like a drop, perhaps, could be in there, a lot of intermarrying across those families. Four, Alan Adams' mother is a dragon seed, or the daughter or granddaughter of a dragon seed. So she has Targaryen blood. Okay. And then five, Seasmoke just made an exception. Seasmoke broke the rules because he's like, you and my prior rider, Laenor, and this is the canon update that we're like, we've been-

How are they going to explain this? Our understanding is that if your rider is alive, you cannot accept another rider. And Laenor is alive. I've actually been really worried about this. Is this canon shattering? And I really liked this. Like the idea that Seasmoke has the agency to say- You were really worried about it, but you liked it. I was worried about it. And now I liked it because it's like the idea that Seasmoke would say, you left me, Laenor. Why should I be alone? I just don't know that we know that yet.

Because Lenore could be dead off screen. We don't know. It's possible. I think if they do this whole like he's actually alive and going to be happy. He's the guy who went on the boat. Yeah, and then is just killed off screen. That would be weird to me, but it's certainly possible. Or I think Talia. Well, that's a little different. But yes, but yes. But like,

So Seasmoke sought out somebody who has the same father as his prior writer. Like Corlys was Laenor's father. Corlys is Adam's father. They didn't end it with like Adams on top of Seasmoke. No, but they ended it with Seasmoke sniffing Adam and then cutting to Rhaenyra learning

learning that Seasmoke has another rider. I did actually want to ask about another dragon that I didn't mention in the recap at all, which is the big old dragon out in the Vale who left a gigantic T-Rex footprint. One stealing sheep? Yeah. Oh, is that Sheepstealer? We don't know. Why didn't she mention? Because it's a wild dragon. It doesn't have a rider.

Okay. All right. But the fact that Reyna, the most dragon-thirsty... Again, this is a big... It's hard to know exactly how to talk about this because it's a big question mark for us because we're doing some lore departure. So we're doing... We're just using TV literacy to say we have a character who is very... Wants to have a dragon. Dragon-hungry. And there is a giant dragon roaming around the Vale and she's just sitting there staring at dragon toys being like, hmm...

If this happens, this is a massive departure from the book. Interesting. So we don't know that it's going to happen, but like the TV signs are pointing in that direction, right? I assume someone having a dragon is the kind of thing that would be jotted down in Game of Thrones lore, you know, these books or whatever. So that would be a major decision for this show to be like someone has a dragon that would never have been remarked upon. And that dragon seems pretty big. It's a big dragon. Okay. Any more dragon stuff before I go on to Alice?

Let's talk about some witch stuff. What happened there? So Alice... Witch stuff, go. I've been a little... I really like Gail Rankin's performance, but obviously, and I think purposely, I am a bit confused about if she's actually there. Like, if Alice is true. Did you feel any differently hearing Simon mention her in this episode? Yeah, I did. Our healer. But, like, leading up until this point, I mean, I find it strange that no one really remarks upon, like...

Damon's never like, I happen to be seeing this person behind you all the time. And it's always like Damon waking up and him being like, hey man, we're at dinner with these other people. I knocked over my goblet of wine again. And Simon's like, maybe you should get some sleep. I'm trying. Maybe you should get some sleep. Trying. I think Alice, obviously, on screen has a lot more mystery. You probably know much more about her as readers. Is there something in particular that you've seen on television recently

that you can tell us about that gives her perception into like Viserys' psychology. Yeah, she's like Viserys didn't want it. She's like the door that Daemon walks through basically to relive these traumatic events. She also like lists all the specific places Daemon fled to. She's sharing a lot of specific information about things that have happened in Viserys and Daemon's lives. This is why I like putting her in sort of the bundle with

and Misaria. She's her own kind of spy master. She's just like a magical one. Did you get skin changer vibes from the owl? The owl stuff, sure. She's got, you know, werewood spies everywhere. Like, yeah. Yeah. When we have hours and hours to talk about and not bore you with, I have a lot to say about the owl. We'll talk about it a little bit more on House of R for sure. Yeah, exciting. She voiced some class.

like, reluctant leader stuff there, too. Yeah. I wrote, I don't want it, like, five times. Okay, here's a question I have for you. Okay. Mallory and I have had this...

Gentle disagreement over the years about in the Thrones universe, and it's overtly stated in this episode because Alan also doesn't want it. The idea that like the best leader is the kind of leader who doesn't want the throne. Yes. That's why Rhaenyra gets it from Viserys in the first place, right? Like she's, because she wouldn't want this. It's like that's what makes her so good for it. That's the idea. Yeah.

My counter argument is what's wrong with feeling like you're the best person for the job and kind of wanting to do the job? Let's ask Raymond. That's a very, yeah, that's a very idealistic version of ambition is just being like, I just think I'm really qualified. No, I just want occasionally like five drops of, I could do this job. Sure. Every single time in Thrones and a lot of other fantasy properties when it's just sort of like, I don't want it. Didn't we get that when Ser Darkland was like, sure, I'll do it. Yeah.

But then they get torched. I've done this. I would just like someone to be like, yeah, I can do this and be good at it. I agree. It would be nice if people were a little bit more enthusiastic about their... That's part of what I have really enjoyed about Rhaenyra's arc is I think she's occupied all of those spaces at some point in time. Starting off as the like, I just want to fly around in my dragon and hang out with my friends. I never jest about cake. And then she's like, this is my birthright and I have been deprived and I would be better at this than the green.

So, why not both? I think I could use a little bit of a reset here for a second about what exactly Damon is trying to accomplish. I assume he is trying to bring... Matt Herenhold? Well, okay, because the Tully thing is delivered in a dialect that is...

you know, discernible but not exactly clear, where it's kind of like, okay, there's this Tully guy who is dying. Yeah. But he is still the person that all of these families look to to be like, do you want us to go green or black? Right? Now, among those families in these little pockets of the Riverlands, they're all fighting with each other. Correct. But they do still pledge allegiance to this guy,

The head of the Tully household, correct? Yeah, yeah. It's like the Starks in the north or the Arryns in the Vale, right? Like the Tullys are the Lord's paramount. But like-

Grover Tully has been so ill and so bedridden that their power has been sort of diminished. Right? So he's just like one feather pillow on the face away from a younger, you know. Now we've got that. Yeah. Now, did the owl just give him a little shove into the creepy owl? I just loved, like, Alice. I don't think it was the owl itself. Can I imagine it? Yes. That the owl is just like, you can't.

You know? Yeah, maybe the owl was like a healing assistant when Alice went in. I love the idea of Alice boosting her own legacy as a dispenser of prophecy by being like three days hence. And then it's like, that's just how long it's going to take me to go kill this guy. In three days hence, as the dragon flies. Oh, man. I loved this.

The Damon and Dreamland stuff, which has been, I think, divisive among the audiences, we've really enjoyed it. I think it's gone on a bit long. But I think this is the end. Just...

I think this is the last. We're saving Viserys. He has his breakthrough. We learned in season one, Larys says this thing about Harrenhal passing judgment on those who pass beneath its gates. So this idea that this was in some way a test for Daemon that he finally passed because instead of chopping Rhaenyra's head off,

or fucking his mom. Tough one still. He... Scoops up his brother and holds him. He, you know, he says, I'm sorry, I should have been there for you. The fact that they replayed a scene from season one, a scene that we talk about all the time. Constantly. But then, like, I went back and rewatched that scene to sort of, like, you know, write down the differences. They did bring, seemingly bring Patty constantly. I know. For a second, I was worried they were using recycled footage, but they did not. And what is the...

I'm so curious to hear what you think the key difference is. But a key difference that I found is in the original scene, they have that conversation. Viserys is...

Grief-stricken, angry, and trying to... And he's clothed himself in kingdom. The crown is on. The sword is there. He is like, I'm sitting on the throne. I am the king talking to my disgraced heir, no longer heir. And as soon as Daemon turns his back, you see Paddy as Viserys in that original scene sort of slump a little. But Daemon never saw it. And so the fact that Daemon is locked in this room and forced to grapple with the fact that this was hard...

hard for his brother to do, that he was devastated to do it, and having to consider someone else's feelings other than his own for the first time in his entire life, I thought was... Never too late. Never too late to start. You just gotta lock someone in a dream space, you know? Am I to read this then that Alice's goal in leading him through this process was to get him to say...

I'm sorry or I've been broken and now I'm ready to rebuild something here. Like, I'm ready to be a better person. Like, I guess I'm kind of like, why does Alice care whether Damon's a good guy? I think that's a question I have too. Like, what, because she could have just let Damon leave. Yeah. Right? It was just last episode that she was like, look at all this shit you brought here with you. And I don't know that we, I think we can speculate, but like, I don't think we know the answer to why she chooses to say,

No, you actually can't do anything. Another like do nothing, right, moment. But I can and I will go eliminate the thing that you need eliminated to try, to try to rally the Riverlands around your cause. Like what is her purpose in assisting Damon here? What does that achieve for Alice? I think, I mean, it's a great question. I think then we have to take seriously what she said last week about the way that the, like the,

women and children of the Riverlands are suffering. And so her breakthrough to Daemon is think about people, other people suffering for once. And it seems like he is. Then maybe she's like, okay, then maybe you're the kind of guy with the dragon that I want here in the Riverlands if you are going to think about other people and how this impacts them. But also, I'm not settled on that. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I think even just the way that in the span of a single conversation, it builds from Daemon Targaryen asking for help. Counsel! Counsel!

Not help, counsel to I need help, Alice, in the span of a conversation. That's a massive thing. I mean, when we saw Damon and the whole family assembled at Driftmark for Lena's funeral in season one, and Viserys finally, after the second ousting, invited him back. And Damon said it was the only thing he wanted to hear.

From anyone in the world was just Harris inviting him back, but he couldn't admit that that was what he needed. I need nothing. But he does. They all do. This gets back to what you're saying about the isolation that is completely warping their ability to behave in a proper way that would actually help them live better or fruit for life. I also have a question. I don't know if I totally want that for my Game of Thrones characters, but yeah. To go back to our favorite scene of all time, Damon having sex with his mom, I also have to wonder if...

In that moment when he has that sort of horrified look at the end of that sequence, if he's like,

I know I like people saying nice things to me, and I know I need praise, but am I so sick that I need to fuck my mom in order to get it? And maybe that's not what this life is about, actually. Yeah, I like that. It was interesting that we got the altered version of a scene that we had spent time with, but I liked that the second dream encounter then was not only a new thing that we hadn't seen Damon and Viserys share, but something that I think we understand did not happen.

Yes. Right? That, like, if we think of the funeral, Emma and Balon's funeral in the series premiere, Daemon goes over to Rhaenyra in High Valyrian and says, your father needs you now more than ever. Mm-hmm.

He actually does understand what Viserys needs. He's just not capable of giving it to him. He can't do it. And so for him to make that breakthrough, like I failed you. I should have been here. I should have wrapped my arms around you and cried with you and told you it would be okay instead of making you spend your hours after your family was destroyed telling me how I had let you down time and time again. This is like last week we're like, is this our daemon? And then here I'm like, this is

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Like, this is what we needed out of our guy. Ghost therapy. Look into it. Okay. It's a good idea. Before we go, I do want to talk a little bit about some stuff happening in the greens. Yeah, let's talk about Laris and Aegon. But I want to talk about Laris, Aegon, and Aemon. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So Laris has obviously been seeding this idea with both brothers up until this moment where he's like, maybe I can be your number one dude, right? Like, I can be your hand. That was someone else's hand. Yeah. You need a fresh hand. Yeah, the swap your hand thing worked on Aegon. Yeah, it didn't work on Aegon. Not work on Aemon. So...

Is his goal in life just to be as close to the crown as possible? Or is there something for Laris, do you think,

Because I think what I'm trying to understand is, like, does Laris just want to be as close to power as possible, or is there something specific about one of these guys that he's drawn to and thinks that he's, like... I mean, because it seems like it's the former, right? What do you think, Jo? The second he gets rejected by Aemon, he goes right to Aegon. Yeah, I think he knows... And the second he gets rejected by Alicent, he goes right, you know, like... To Aegon. Yeah. I think in Aegon, especially now, this injured Aegon, he has found someone where he's, like... Injured?

A little toasty, a little roasty toasty. Eamon's like pressing a small ball into Aegon's... No, but also the noises, the whimpers that Tom Glincarni was making. I was going to ask you too if you thought Tom could win an Emmy simply for... Whimpering? Like rattling breasts. Yeah. So good. It's incredible. What I love... The Larys-Aegon scene was my favorite scene of the episode. And what I loved about it so much was we had been talking about Larys for so long as...

Varys coded as Littlefinger coded, which he is, all of those things. But he's also Tyrion coded. This is a Tyrion Lannister moment. There's genuine vulnerability in here while also having an agenda. Yeah, right.

No, because I believe he's genuinely, like, was very upset by the fact that his father, like, was horrified by his birth. Sure. The same way that Tywin was horrified by Tyrion's birth. They used the word, like, twisted, which is a word we have heard for Tyrion and stuff like this. And then this idea of, like...

cloak yourself, armor yourself. Never forget what you are. The rest of the world will not. Wear it like armor and it can never be used to hurt you. So this is a guy who has just been rejected. And he talks about people not looking at you or staring at you. And Matthew Needham in this scene, so good. So is he using his real pain to...

for an agenda to get him closer to a piece on the board that he can better move than Aemond? Yes. Sure. But is it real pain? I think it is. I think you're probably right. Yeah, I think so too. And it feels like extra poignant because it taps into that, like the cripples, bastards and broken things quote that gives us that beautiful where like armor Tyrion John moment that Joe just quoted, like that's a core unifying Game of Thrones idea. Whether you're actually one of like all of these characters who feel like

like, an other, an outsider in some way? Like, they weren't accepted by their father or their house or their peers or their siblings or the realm or whatever the case may be. Like, how do you move forward and try to forge your own path then? And can you find other people who are like-minded or who you can find some sort of, like, symbiosis and empathy with? And that was the other, like, thinking of... This is why, like, fellowships is such, like, an important part of this episode. Sorry. Yeah, no, no, no, no. I think, like, thinking of it from...

Both of their perspectives was fascinating because Tyrion was also on my mind like it made me think of hearing Larys talk about his birth like it made me think of that really gut-wrenching scene where Oberyn is telling Tyrion about you know saying like to Cersei that's not a monster I told Cersei that's just a baby and like what would it be like if from the moment you were born that was how other people including people closest to you in your life made you feel. And I thought it was really

really fascinating about this exchange was it puts Lionel Strong, a character that we thought was like, who was the hand of the king, like Harwin's dad, really honorable, rejected his kid who was, you know, came out with this like twisted leg. And so it's like,

The fact that it puts Lionel in this different light because of how he failed this son. He might have been a good father to Harwin, but not a good father to Laris. And that rejection is what turned Laris into the kind of guy, I guess, who would light his family on fire. Yeah.

But also, there's this interesting little morsel of like an Alice reference here, right? Where he says, my father accused someone in our household of sorcery. So like, was Alice cast out by Lionel? Was she complicit in the burning of Aaron Hall? Like, we don't know. Those are just questions, but I love this scene. That's really fascinating. You know what? Actually, it's funny because we're talking about this and I was...

In my mind, what popped up as you were talking about this sort of rejection and this childhood trauma that Lyra's experienced is the Eamon Allison moment. Of course. When she's like, haven't you avenged the indignities? What did she say? But she's basically like, have you not sufficiently avenged your childhood yet? And he just doesn't say anything.

And he's just like, just. I thought the moment where, because she's like cupping his face. Yeah. And he reaches up to pull her hand away, but he like holds on for a second. Because like, it's actually all he really wants and has wanted is for her to accept him. But he couldn't. I thought it was cool that they shot it from the eye. Yes, this is like a thing that I'm loving over the last couple episodes. It's making it feel like more of a mask. The fact that, like, what did he specifically do?

We've heard him say back in the premiere of this season to Kristen, she holds love for our enemy and that makes her a fool. There's that practical part of it. But he walked into the small council meeting in the first episode of the season and she said, you don't belong here. So he did the same thing to her. And this is like that sin begets sin idea again. And so like,

I love that we're tying those two moments, the Aegon and Aemon, Alicent's and Larys' moments, because when Larys said, and they will underestimate you and this will be your advantage, that is Aemon's story. He's not underestimated in terms of his might as a sword. But what do we hear him say in this episode? Like, I'm not a dog to be called to heal, even though we heard Aegon describe him exactly that way. Not a horse. Exactly that.

- Egon had described him literally that way. He's a loyal hound. He'll go where I send him and do what he needs. - Well, it's also he gets out in front of his skis because it's like, in truth,

he probably does need to ride Vhagar out there to protect what's left of Kristen's, like, army. And this idea that, like, Kristen has to go running into another battle, but he's like, I'm withholding Vhagar because you guys want him too bad. It's like... Because Jason asked for it. It's like everything is psychological with him. And it's interesting as we get to the end of this, it's like, we've just spent probably an hour mostly talking about...

emotions and psychology of characters, whereas for the most part in Game of Thrones, I would say we're just constantly like, okay, this is where this person is and this is where this person might go and this is what's chasing them or what they have to confront. And it's much more physical. It's much more practical. It seems like this show is really finding its

footing by being like these are these like complex portraits of these people that are going to shape the world and the future. And here's like you know maybe the history version of them is like and then they decided to do this and everybody died or lived or whatever. But this is like this is why these people were like this. It goes back to your first question to us I think where it's just sort of like if you're Ryan Condal or any of the writers on the show and you open Fire and Blood and it's like Allison did this really shitty thing. Right.

Why? Right. Why? This was such an intimate episode. Yeah. Like, Larys takes that milk of the poppy away from Aegon, right? We have to be thinking of Viserys bandaged in that same bed addled on milk of the poppy.

These are the people who are forging the kingdoms. But what is forging them? And this was an episode, this was why I really loved the episode. Like, I think it's important to take a beat and think about that. Yeah. And when Laris is saying to Aegon, like, you'll be, you're never gonna be the same again. You won't run. What comes, what comes, it made me think of Bran, right? Like, and Bran wakes up and-

What do you do with that? Is Egon going to be more understanding and more empathetic and more inclined to find gratitude for the things that he still has after this experience? Is he going to be even more hardened and cruel? I doubt it.

We'll find out. We'll find out. We will find out. For Mallory and Joe, I'm Chris Ryan. We will be back next Sunday with episode, our reaction to episode seven, the penultimate episode of the season. Thanks for watching and we'll see you next week.