'House of the Dragon' Season 2, Episode 7 Deep Dive. Plus: Tom Bennett! | House of R
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I understand now that what I thought I knew is ash in the wind. Perhaps it is blood. Or worth. Or perhaps it's something else. Each of you has left behind a life to answer this call. A life to which you might never return. If you survive, you will be transformed. No man or woman can face a dragon and be otherwise. Some of you may welcome the prospect of change. Even death, given the alternatives.

Greetings and welcome.

It's a House of R, a Ringerverse podcast on the Ringer Podcast Network. I'm Mallory Rubin, and it is my absolute pleasure to invite you not only to the Dragonmont. Everything's going to be fine. Come on in. It's fine. And also back into the House of R. Joining me today to share that she has nothing more to tell us. It must be the dragon who speaks.

It's Joanna Robinson. What's up, Jo? Mallory, hello. I'm here in studio. You're at home because you continue to bravely battle the torching fire of COVID in order to come to us here today to cover House of the Dragon. You're a hero, and I honor you.

Uh, it's been really rough. I still feel terrible. I'd like to apologize to all of the bad babies for, uh, coming to you looking like, uh, Viserys when he meets Damon in the dream state in this episode and, uh, sounding like death and, and all of it. But thank you for your patience as, uh, Joe has healed. It's, it's aspirational to me. I hope to be, I hope to be well and back in studio with my pal soon. Uh, Joe,

Before Arjuna pops on and says, your progress is impressive. Is it? Was that guns? I don't know. I guess. Some quick programming reminders. The ringer verse popping as always. Another ringer verse recommends episode coming Wednesday. And then on Friday, junior mints get hyped because mint edition, we'll have an episode on Batman caped crusader here on the house of our

There will be a Deadpool and Wolverine pod at some point, as you might have gleaned. I have not been able to go to a movie theater to see the film yet because I have been riddled with COVID. And so that is complicating our plans. Timing TBD, the pod will come at some point with some people talking about the blockbuster event of the summer. And then, of course, on Sunday night, we will be with Chris Ryan right after, moments after, the House of the Dragon season two finale. We will be live.

for Talk the Thrones. We can't wait for that. That will, of course, be streaming live on the Ringerverse YouTube channel. That's also where you can find full video episodes of House of R Deep Dives, such as this one. Who wouldn't want to see this on video? I mean, you look beautiful. Beautiful. Thank you.

The Midnight Boys, pew, pew, on video. If anyone's like, where was the episode six deep dive? Why was it on YouTube? That was not a video because we both were just in the throes of COVID at that point, but you could still listen to the audio of that pod on Spotify or wherever you get your podcasts. Jo, how can the people follow along? So glad you asked.

First and foremost, I do want to say this Sunday, the finale, Talk of Thrones is going to be an extra special tasty energy because we will have watched the episode once and jumping immediately on to camera. Not ideal. If you want to see us lose our minds in real time, that would be the time to tune in live on Sunday after the finale. I think it's going to be really fun. I can't wait. Can't wait, truly. And –

Yeah, listen, follow the pod. Why don't you do that? Ringerverse, House of R. It's a good idea to do so. Like, follow us on socials. We're on X. We're on Facebook. We're on TikTok. TikTok.

We're on Instagram. We're on, most importantly, Twitter, which is what I should have called in the first place. Thank you. I was in shock. I know. You can always email us. HobbitsandDragons at gmail.com. Your emails sustain me. As I work late into the night on my show notes for the following day, I'm always combing through your emails and then just live-

stream of consciousness tweeting about them. So, like, thank you guys so much. You're essentially keeping me company while I'm doing show notes. So, thank you so much. Last programming reminder, it's the Friendly Neighborhood spoiler warning. We will, of course, be talking about everything that happened in this penultimate episode, the seventh episode of season two of House of the Dragon. Anything that has happened in House of the Dragon to date, anything that ever happened in Game of Thrones, we will be citing the source text, Fire and Blood, Song of Ice and Fire, throughout the pod for context, historical illumination, et cetera. But,

Anything that gets into future plot developments, that will be sectioned off in a brief book spoiler section at the end of the pod. You will have another spoiler warning right before then. And...

That section today will be coming after an interview because Joanna got to chat with Tom Bennett, Ulf himself. Oh my God. Thrill of my life. What a joy. What a delight Tom Bennett is. I'm such a huge fan of his, so it was so fun to talk to him. Please forgive me. I was still a bit COVID-y when I talked to him, so he's perfect.

And I'm just a little addled. But overall, I think the conversation was great. And he had some, like, really fun insights into, like, you know, the specificities of Ulf's character and also sort of why, a bit why Silverwing would be attracted to someone like Ulf. Because I think that's a big question a lot of us have. It's like, what does Ulf have? Hugh, we can kind of, like, see the connection. We're like, Ulf, what's happening here? So, yeah.

Yeah. I mean, good hang at the bar. One more. I would want to hang out with Ulf nonstop, but I'm not silver wing. So alas. Okay. We cannot gain say that which the podcasting gods have laid before us.

So let's get to it. We are here to talk about episode seven, The Red Sewing, directed by Lonnie Parasteer, written by David Hancock, who wrote previously the third episode of this season, Burning Mill. This is a 64-minute episode, yet another episode checking in north of the hour mark. Before we get to the deep dive, let's get to the brief opening snapshot. It's not a sentence, but an honor. ♪

Joanna Robinson, we've got a long, deep dive ahead. Give us a taste. Yeah. What did you think of this seventh episode, The Red Sewing? Quickly, I will just say I really like this. I like this more every time that I rewatch it and think about it. And I think in terms of like marrying dragon spectacle to character and theme development, this is the most successful episode.

Not only House of Dragons has ever been, but like Game of Thrones has ever been. I think it really leveled something up. A lot of that had to do with like how good everything looked and sounded. I think the Vermithor sequence is one of the most extraordinary things I've ever seen. God tier. Not to sound like Rhaenyra, but god tier. I was just like astounded by it. So yeah, I thought it was great. How about you?

I loved it. The sowing of the seeds is one of my favorite stretches in the book, so I had been anticipating this all season long, and it did not disappoint. I can't wait to go beat by beat and chat about this episode with you today. I'm honestly despondent that we only have one episode left. I was already like, oh man, only eight, not 10 this season. What a bummer. And it's just been such a strong season on balance overall that I'm like,

really going through withdrawal already contemplating the conclusion of this but as usual I am trying to balance that with just soaking up every second of being in Westeros with you my pal

I want to hit just like two really quick emails that we got. We got a bunch of other emails that we'll get to. But Laura said, RIP mailies. You would have loved last night's small folk slaughter, which I thought was really funny. Hall of Fame email. Brutal. My God. And then Alyssa Maria said, Silverwing definitely said I can change him to Ulf. Yeah.

And then last but not least, we got a ton of emails of various forms and lengths of varieties about this idea of dragon claiming. And what we... What's the lore around this? The question is like...

A dragon claiming a rider or a rider claiming a dragon or riders and dragons being paired at birth versus claimed later. What do we know for certain, Mallory, about this process? All the while being open to the show doing sort of its own versions of things. Yeah.

Great table setting bundle of emails here because we're going to hit, obviously, some of these details as we go in context. But it's, yeah, this is a good call to put this out there at the top. We've talked about many of these little canon nuggets over the last few pods. But to kind of get everything that we know or don't know in a cluster here, I'll attempt to move through this as quickly as possible slash without expiring from shortness of breath.

but that we could kind of all keep this in mind as we go through the red sewing. And also as Joe, as you're noted, keep in mind that we only think we know what we think we know. There's plenty we don't know and plenty we will learn over time, both on the show and in the text in the future. Should we be treated to more text at some point? Okay. Thanks George. We appreciate you. We're rooting for you. We believe in you, George. We do. We do. Okay.

First thing to keep in mind, just to remember that...

In Valeria of old, there were 40 dragon lord families and the Targaryens were just one of them and not the most powerful one at that. But they're the ones who survived the doom. Thanks to Dany's the dreamer. No wonder this family is fucking obsessed with dreams and prophecy. It allowed them to become the only dragon riding power in the known world. OK, so that's kind of the big backdrop. Who is eligible to pair?

Let's keep in mind that this tradition of intermarrying is about keeping the bloodlines pure from fire and blood. It had long been the custom amongst the dragon lords of Valyria to wed brother to sister to keep the bloodlines pure. Normal stuff. This is literally the reason. Keep those M counts up. This is...

I love you are committed to maintaining the streak of mentioning M counts. And I honestly, Tywin voice, I respect that. Thank you. This is a great, a great new tradition of yours. I just like thinking of it that way. This idea of like, yeah, Garion dragon, any midichlorians in your bloodstream, watch out for quite gun. Oh, it's, this is literally the reason that the Targaryens got the faith of

to sanction their incest. In later years, the Citadel and the Starry Sept alike will call it the Doctrine of Existence.

Exceptionalism. Its basic tenet was simple. The faith of the seven had been born in the hills of Andalos of old and had crossed the narrow sea with the Andals. The laws of the seven is laid down in sacred text and taught by the septas and septons in obedience to the faith, to the father of the faithful, decreed that brother might not lie with sister nor father with daughter nor mother with son, that the fruits of such unions were abominations, loathsome in the eyes of the gods.

All this, the exceptionalists affirmed, but with this caveat, the Targaryens were different. Their roots were not in Andalos, but in Valyria of old, where different laws and traditions held sway. A man had only to look at them to know that they were not like other men. Their eyes, their hair, their very bearing all proclaimed their differences, and they flew dragons. They alone, of all the men in the world, had been given the power to tame those fearsome beasts once the doom had come to them.

Valeria, end quote. Jo, you love the doctrine of exceptionalism. That's going to come up a few times today. I really do. But yeah, my big question is this. How are the Targaryens going to justify their incest now? Now they've put a bunch of bastards on dragons. It's a phenomenal note. This was the reason they were allowed to sleep with all of their closest relatives. Next. What a world. What a story. What a fictional universe this is. Thanks, George.

So there's this blood question. We went through this in the kind of bullet point detail when we talked about like, how could Adam potentially be a dragger rider? We talked about this last week. Quickly to refresh on those possibilities for anyone who didn't listen to last week's pods. Maybe it's all propaganda. All of it. Maybe anybody can truly ride. We talked a couple weeks ago about George R.R. Martin's recent blog post on his Not A Blog. And this idea that was floated in there that kind of like,

sparked our curiosity about a certain implication about other families. Think about it, George wrote, if dragons were nomadic, they would have overrun half of Essos and the doom would only have killed a few of them. Similarly, the dragons of Westeros seldom wander far from Dragonstone. Elsewise, after 300 years, we would have dragons all over the realm and every noble house would have a few. Now, he didn't outright say, write a few. Maybe it just means hanging in the yard. Maybe there's an implication there about all of the intermarrying of families over time and little sprinkles of Targ blood dotted across the realm, but it made us go,

Another example of like what might we learn more over time. Maybe you don't need Targaryen's bloodline

blood specifically, but you need some of that blood of old Valyria, the dragon lords, the magic, the blood magic of old. Corlys notes in this episode that House Velaryon, that they are not dragon lords, but could there be, as we talked about last week, some Targ blood in Corlys' line from some of the intermarrying across the histories? Entirely possible. Maybe you do need Targaryen blood specifically, and maybe as Rhaenyra is asking in this episode, as Corlys asks Asgore,

He implies it.

All of this is on the table. We have our theories. This is like a hotly debated question in the fandom. That's what I was going to say. Even book readers are not united on this question of like, do you have to have some Targ blood in you in order to ride a dragon? I would say thus far, the show has not given us an indication that anyone can ride a dragon. In the show, thus far, that is not. This episode is a very like, where's your Targ blood? Let's ask about your Targ blood episode. Yeah, definitely. Yeah.

More broadly, beyond the blood, in this episode, Rhaenyra kind of voices this larger question. Like, what are the qualities that you need to possess, right? We heard it at the top of this episode. I used to think I knew what it was to claim a dragon, but I understand now that what I thought I knew was ash in the wind. Perhaps it is blood or worth, or perhaps it's something else. That worth...

word choice felt so interesting. There's like a Mjolnir, like, are you worthy kind of quality that's being presented there. It's so subjective. It's dragon to dragon. And I think Condal has said this idea, like, I think they intentionally very much, you know, because Chris, very naturally, I think Chris Ryan was also looking for like sort of this unified, like,

Like, what makes Adam and Ulf and Hugh all kinds of people that dragons would claim? And I think they actually very intentionally made them quite different to underline this idea, the Caprice of Dragons, however you prefer, that, like, it's just up to the dragon. You know what I mean? It's like not... Who can know the mind of such a beast? Who can... You know, it's just like...

Dragons are not a monolith, right? And so if Silverwing is looking for a good time with Ulf or whatever and Vermiflor is like, let's go fuck some shit up with Hugh, you know what I mean? It depends on the dragon. Absolutely. And I think that this episode, again, really leaned into and the show so far is leaning into that idea at the heart of what you're identifying, that fireblood passage that

We've turned to time and time again throughout the season. We shall not pretend to any understanding of the bond between dragon and dragon rider. Wiser heads have pondered that mystery for centuries. We do know, however, the dragons are not horses to be ridden by any man who throws a saddle on their back. So this is like at the heart of how the story, the text is examining the lore and the mythology.

It's like Ygritte is here just saying you know nothing, Jon Snow, to all of us about dragon riding time and time again. And so we look to apply these kernels of insight that we have, but we have to maintain that context of the unknown. Would you agree that... So we have this... Dragons are not horses. I would. I would. Would you agree that...

So we have this Targaryen practice that's alluded to in the show, perhaps even shown with Jaehaerys and Jaehaera's beds that we saw at the beginning of the season. This idea that, like,

Targaryen royals, Targaryen children are given a dragon egg. Daemon stole one for his fake baby that he was going to have with Miss Arya. You're given a dragon egg to hatch with you so you could bond basically from the cradle with this egg. It doesn't always take. That's right. Right? Yes. So this egg aspect, this question of how riders and dragons are paired, the egg part is...

big part of it, but it's not the only path. So this tradition began with Raina Targaryen, older sister of Jaehaerys and Alysanne, who are being mentioned with increasing frequency on our podcast. Uh,

Reyna had bonded with her hatchling, Dreamfire, who gets a call-out in the scenes for the finale. Thrilling stuff. Jumped off my couch first time I'd shown that level of energy at Ben Outmatched by. Yeah, spotting another dragon in the scenes for next week. She was nine when...

Reyna was nine when she and Dreamfire bonded, but this was such a cherished bond for her and an early one still in her life that it sparked this tradition from fire and blood. It was Princess Reyna, legend says, who put a dragon's egg in Princess Alisaine's cradle just as she had for Prince Jaehaerys two years earlier. If those tales be true, from those eggs came the dragons Silverwing and Vermithor, whose names would be writ so large in the annals of the years to come. Here's another key quote.

From Fire and Blood. It became customary for the fathers and mothers of newborn princelings to place a dragon's egg in their cradles following a tradition that Princess Rhaena had begun many years before. The children so blessed invariably bonded with the hatchlings to become dragon riders. But we know, of course, that that is not true.

At least like in Showland, Raina's egg did not hatch. In the book, we should note Raina's egg did hatch, quote, a broken thing that died within hours of emerging from the egg.

the egg. You mentioned, Joe, the egg that Damon steals because he wants to give it to his fictional baby. That also was the egg that Rhaenyra had picked to put in Baelon, who she wanted to name Visenya's cradle. So that kind of gives you that tradition of the sibling relationship. We saw in the sixth episode of season one, Jace and Luke pick an egg for Joff. So we've gotten to glimpse it

We don't have every single, did this character get an egg bit of canon, like completely established. Sometimes we have to deduce, but we do know that they don't always hatch or that if they hatch, they don't always live. And we heard Lena and Raina talk about that last season in the show when Lena told her daughter, it's been eight years, sweetling. Half of them never do, you know, what? Hatch. And then she told her daughter, there's more than one way to bind yourself to a dragon.

I was without one until I was 15 years old. Now I ride Vhagar, the largest in the world. You have a harder road. Baelish dragon was born to her, but if you wish to be a rider, you must claim that right, which of course is what we saw Aemon do with Vhagar. Claim that right. Okay, but here's my question. Yes. Given that you did all this beautiful, delightful research, do you agree with me that in terms of...

Riders claim dragons. We've seen a bunch of times. We heard about, you know, Daemon's mom, Alyssa. You know, we saw Aemon dealing with Vhagar. But is it more of a show convention, this idea of a dragon picking the rider? I mean, there's a mutual claiming, I think, in terms of like Vhagar and Aemon. Like if Aemon approaches Vhagar...

And manages to hold on for that ride. That is sort of like a mutual choosing, right? Because Vhagar could have easily, like, torched Daemon if she decided to. But this idea of, like, Seasmoke, like, hunting Adam down and claiming him or...

You know, like, the red sewing is an event where a bunch of people fail and then someone like Hugh succeeds. So that is, in a sense, Vermithor choosing Hugh. But it seems like the show is making a little bit more emphasis on this idea of, like, a dragon choosing a rider versus a rider being brave or bold enough to claim a dragon. Do you know what I mean? And that feels very much in line with, like, this question Chris has been asking us all season of...

where's the room for like embellishing or fleshing out of something in the text? Where are they bound? Because like, it does feel like something where the historical record would say, look at this brave person who did this thing. Look at this person who became a legend. And then we get to see, and this is one of the, I think what you said earlier about like the, the achievement of the, not just spectacle, but fantasy spectacle is so right. And so important to heighten. And of course, one of the things like I loved about this episode too, to see like,

see smoke seek out the thing he wanted and knew was right and to show us how the dragons have agency and perspective and wants and desires it should be a mutual thing and so like while it always is is mutual like i think you're right to identify that the show is heightening the dragon side of that and then like that gets to this other question that we received a lot of about like

dragon relationships with each other or dragon relationships with other riders and like what's going on through a dragon's mind so we can quickly run through like a couple of those nuggets as well. Well just inspired by this great standoff on the beach between the strangers that are Rhaenyra and Adam

But the old friends, if you want to put it that way, that are Cyrax and Seasmoke. And we talked about this a little bit when we talked about Rook's Rest and like Vhagar and Maelys and knowing each other and or...

or anyway, Vhagar knowing Rhaenys. So what do you want to say about that? Yeah, so Vhagar and Maelys, their previous riders, Balon and Alyssa, siblings and spouses. Did that stop Vhagar from killing Maelys? It did not. Vhagar and Caraxes have history. We saw Laena and Daemon flying together in Pentos, Balon and

Aemon were brothers, prior riders of those dragons. Has that history between those dragons for a second stopped either Aemon or Daemon from saying, I can't wait to go challenge this other person. Like, I wonder what my dragon will think of this. No, not for a second.

They're both talking about it all the time. There are, you know, a lot of examples, but like another maybe fun one to cite is Balerion and Quicksilver. Balerion, Maegor the Cruel. My guy, Maegor the Cruel. Your favorite. A normal, very chill, calm, peaceful. That's how you get a name like the Cruel, you know? Exactly. Claimed Balerion and Quicksilver.

Aeneas slash Anus, as he will always be referred to on this podcast. Maegor's brother. They're brothers from different mothers, different sister wives, right? In the Aegon and his sister wives trio there. They were Balerion and Quicksilver's riders, brother riders. Now, they had a quite complex relationship that we do not have time to get into here, but still...

Brothers who were riders, and there's a history between those mounts. Did that stop Maegor and Balerion from taking on Aegon the Uncrowned and Quicksilver? It didn't.

Folks, it did not. Fun fact, of course, is that Aegon took a really long time to get a dragon to claim Quicksilver while his sister slash stop us if you've heard this before, wife, Rhaena, had already had Dreamfire and like this, oh my God, he doesn't have a dragon was like a big part of their story. I think, so I think the primary takeaway from this is

The dragon's primary overall will override anything else bonded to its rider. Yes. Some will claim, Fire and Blood says, that the bond between a dragon and a dragon rider runs so deep that the beast shares his master's loves and hates. Uh...

shifting over time because the bond of the moment is the bond that counts. And then, so what does that mean for like the other people? A lot of people have asked, including Chris on talk to thrones, how was Rhaenyra able to like approach Vermithor? We had seen Damon do the same. Let's just remember that when both Rhaenyra and Damon summoned Vermithor, Vermithor was not paired.

Vermithor didn't have a rider that would trump any other interaction. It's just something for us to keep in the back of our minds. We had that moment in episode six of season one where the dragon keepers kind of explained to Jace in that training sequence with the kids, you must hold mastery over your dragon, my young prince, as Prince Aether.

Aegon has with Sunfire. Once they're fully bound to you, they will refuse to take instruction from any other. Dragons will sometimes allow other people on their backs, but only with their rider there to kind of sanction it. Like we talked about Alyssa taking babies, Viserys and Daemon for rides, Rhaena Targaryen, who we've been talking about today, the other Rhaena, took

Took people to fly on Dreamfire with her. Daemon took Massaria to meet Caraxes, right? When they bounced to Dragonstone. Dany rescued the Beyond the Wall crew on Drogon, but like with the rider. And there are examples that we can't get into.

That may or may not become relevant to the future about someone trying to ride someone else's dragon. It's just it's a bad idea because I don't know if you know this. Dragons are not horses. Not horses. Not horses, Joe. I think the last thing on the pairing front that's probably just worth mentioning is something else we talked about a little bit last week. But to this point in the story, no rider has paired with a second dragon after a dragon's.

Now, of course, to this point in the story, Viserys is like the example of a character who outlived his dragon. So it's like a pretty small sample size of considerations. But George R.R. Martin has implied on his blog, the blog is coming into play as often as the text notable development here today.

He's got it right somewhere, you know? Indeed. He said of Viserys, when the Black Dread died of old age, not in war, Viserys did not take a second dragon. And so from that line on Not A Blog, A Song By Sapphire fans have gleaned that it is in theory, in George's mind at least,

canonically possible for a writer to say, my dragon has died. Now I will take a, seek a second dragon. But that is not something that we have seen to this point in the text. And that's what we know about how writers and dragons compare and all the other stuff that we don't know, but can't wait to find out.

Thank you, Mr. Mallory. You're the best. Boy, that was, I love dragons. That was a fun one to like right on the eve of recording, quickly whip up. Genuinely fun. Head blast. Okay. I'm glad you're saying it that way. Not like genuinely. I saw that added to the doc and I was like, let's do it.

Let's do it. Well, I feel bad that we ran out of time to like really talk about dragon stuff at the end of last week. So I'm glad. This is smart to front load. It's something a lot of people are wondering about. And it's also like a fun thing to be able to say like, here's what we know and here's what we don't. And that's part of the joy of it is we're going to get to find out together. Okay. Should we dive deep? Let's do it. Where should we do it? In the bowels of a pleasure den. Okay.

Let's get into the red sewing. Let's go beat by beat, scene by scene through this episode. Let's start with the scene that you mentioned, Joe. Adam and Rhaenyra meeting this gorgeous wide shot of this face-off on the beach on Driftmark. Stormy skies behind them. What did you make just kind of like vibe-setting, tone-setting of this scene?

genre mashup we got of like Western face-off and fantasy with the dragons roaring and reflecting their riders. I love that Condal said on the inside of the app that this is like a Western showdown with the dragon being the Colts on their hip. I mean, it's great stuff. Right, Condal, he cooks there. It's amazing. This is, I think, I,

I think the visual of Vermithor looming over Rhaenyra and then, like, getting to, like, look at Vermithor in the eye and stuff like that, that's the moment that really, like, visually took my breath away. But this is so much more challenging. We are, like, outside. They film this on a beach. A Farilzi's beach. In your homeland of whales. In my home. I love an ocean vista. A dragon on a beach? Are you kidding me? They...

The amount of character that both front of the pod, Paula Fairfield, and the noises, but then just the VFX team was able to... Paula fucking crushed it in this episode. Paula killed this episode. But the sounds, the chatter between Cyrax and Seasmoke, incredible. The body language between those two dragons and what that did to overall set the mood of the scene, where it's just sort of like a cult scene.

A colt is inert on your hip. Like, you can see sort of like the sun glint off, you know, the pistol if you want to. But if you're a gunslinger, your gun is just sort of like there. Your trigger finger is sort of like what the camera usually focuses on, but your gun is just there. But here, the guns are like alive and they have their own thoughts and feelings about what's happening here. And to our listeners, I mean, to our listeners' point, like, that they, that Rhaenyra and Syrax both have history with sea smoke. Yeah.

it makes this all so juicy. You know, if it were just like a brand new dragon that, you know, wasn't part of the family at one point. You know, and then I thought, I thought that Adam in this scene was extraordinary too. And then just sort of the gamut of emotion, which we talked about on Talk of the Thrones. But I just think visually, the way the dragons just felt so alive. And so, I mean, with love and respect to Game of Thrones, which was working with

just like a different level of technology, even though it was only a couple of years ago, still like, you know, a little, this shows it's just such an amazing job of giving each dragon a personality. I mean, like I felt like we knew Drogon's personality, but not really the distinguishing between the other two on Game of Thrones. And here it's just sort of like, I understand these dragons and who they are. And they've just, this, this moment was incredible. Yeah.

Truly sensational. The question is, does Chris understand the differences between them? That'll be the true test. He's getting closer, you know. We had a ton of emails from listeners last week and this asking if we thought that when Rhaenyra ran out the door of Dragonstone and hopped on Cyrax last week, if she thought she was like, it must be the greens. But if there was some part of her that thought that maybe Laenor had returned.

And it's certainly possible, but I think the tenor that I'm seeing around that question is like, would she be so excited because Laenor's back? And on the one hand, I'm sure like, you know, she had no ill will towards Laenor. And I'm sure, I mean, it would be a dragon rider she could trust that would be on her team. So that would be helpful. Stepstone's vet. It would also be quite bad for Rhaenyra if Laenor came back because like,

They built a lot of their reputation. You know what I mean? Like the death of Leonor was so, the fake out death of Leonor was so calculated and a show of power. And so it's just, you know, it's a wild thing.

But it would be very... She wouldn't just be uncomplicatedly being like, yay, Laenor's back. It's very complicated and messy. Yes, absolutely. Speaking of complicated, speaking of messy, let's talk a little bit more about that emotional state that you just alluded to because Rhaenyra starts this sequence in a quite anxious place. Who are you? You stand with a dragon of House Targaryen. Oh, what do you want? That changes completely

Quickly, over this conversation, as Adam starts to explain, I had no designs upon it. And this dragon came to me. He says he wants to learn to be a dragon rider. He says he wants to learn. He says he wants to serve my queen. And he bends the knee. Immediately. Instantly. You got to this idea on Talk the Thrones.

She mentions his sudden elevation. Is there anything you wanted to hit there on like the way that this Gideon ascent idea we heard from Gawain in the Kristen conversation earlier is like stitching together a larger character set? Yeah, I mean, it's just, it's night and who you are before you have a dragon versus who you are after you have a dragon. And I think that's

is there's no like stronger accelerant that you can throw on someone's like the fire of their reputation, the power in the kingdom, et cetera. Like so for Adam to go from shipwright, something that he hasn't fully shaken off because later he like asked permission from Corliss to like stop being a shipwright. And you're like, buddy, you have a dragon. Your shipwright days are over. You know, so like that getting a scent idea, Chris and Cole by contrast had to like

hack and fight his way up the chain of command in contrast to the power that's conferred upon adam you know he has brand new clothes by the end of the episode they have like tailored new clothes for him by the end of the episode um hugh and olf are not quite you know fitted and kidded yet but like they're as as renera says in that clip that we heard at the beginning of the episode like

Your life is forever changed. There's no going back. You are now a dragon rider. And this is true not just of these dragon seeds, but of course it was true of Aemond with Vhagar too. Who Aemond was, a dragonless, bullied boy in his family versus who he was, as Otto loved to point out, after he claimed Vhagar. And what that...

How that changed Aemond is, I think, something that should be really much on, very much on our minds. Because if you go back and you watch those episodes in season one, Aemond is such a sympathetic character as a young kid. You're just sort of like this poor kid and he's rather sweet about Helena and all this sort of stuff like that. And then, like, who does he become? We talked to you and Mitchell about this a bit. Like, what does knowing that you are the writer of Vhagar do to you as a person? Yeah.

And who do you try to mold yourself into being in order to fit that? So what will it do to Adam? What will it do to Hugh? What will it do to Ulf? You know, et cetera, et cetera. Great flag. Great flag. Yeah.

Perhaps everybody involved with dragons is either going to say they're an illusion that we can control them or we're gods now. Maybe there's some room in between. Are you saying two sides of the coin? Let's flip it. Yeah, let's see where it lands. Adam Swayze Raniro with...

a godly line, and this is going to be something that we talk about at length today on the Rhaenyra front. If the gods call me to greater things, he says, who am I to refuse them? We'll talk about the Rhaenyra part of that later, but from Adam's perspective, from the Adam side of it, this fits with our

season-long sense of his ambition, his desire for something more in life. In the second episode, we heard him say, if I had such a chance, I would leap at it. Or another opportunity to distinguish yourself to his brother about seeking a different position, elevating inside of the fleet. In the sixth episode of this season, do you never think about what could be ours? And so...

That all felt, even in our limited time with Adam, right. Like, we don't doubt that he would be a character to lean in in this moment and then be ready for all that came after. It's interesting because, like,

Alan seems untroubled by it, though it would be nice to see a conversation between the brothers, but Alan seems untroubled by it. But in a way, Adam was so envious of the crumbs of proximity that Alan had to Corlys, right? And Adam has leaped over Alan in that regard, right? In terms of he's now the son with the dragon. Corlys talks to Alan. We'll get to that a little bit later, but it's just sort of like,

Like, it just changes everything. Everything. And it makes it so fascinating then for Alan to say, like, I'm good. In showland, at least. I'm good. I don't need to try. I don't want it. I don't want it. This is where Rhaenyra asks about Adam's parentage and he says his mom's a shipwright. He does not reveal, he chooses not to reveal that Corlys is his father, which was

quite fascinating. Rhaenyra asks if any of his ancestors are Targaryens looking for a tie to that Targ bloodline as Corlys will pursue a similar line of inquiry with Alan later. And Adam says he doesn't know. The show is keeping that possibility open, though, as we mentioned earlier. He says we're not the sort of family to keep annals. And then we see Rhaenyra

We see Rhaenyra almost in like kind of a fevered state. I think fevered state is how I would describe where we find Rhaenyra in the conversation with Mysaria. Shortly, there's like a heavy breathing, a blooming smile of, oh, my God. I didn't think this was possible. And it is. I'm glad of it. And then invites Alan, Adam, excuse me, to Rhaenyra.

It becomes more sinister the more you watch it because like the first time you watch it, you're like, so nice. We like Adam. Rhaenyra needs help. Great. And like you were nervous for them, but then they like,

Like, you know, she's like, I'm glad of it. And you're like, yes, Rhaenyra needs help. This is great. Adam will help her. But when you rewatch it with the threads of this episode and particularly informed by some of the interviews that we got, not just from Condal, but Emma Darcy giving a couple interviews into Rhaenyra's state of mind in this episode, which we'll get to, becomes much more sinister, unfortunately, at the end of that exchange. Yes.

This is a worrying, this is like an exciting, hey, yeah, Team Black, we did it. We've got the Dragonmath Edge episode, and this is a deeply worrying Rhaenyra episode. What does it mean if you are willing to sacrifice the small folk and mass for your ends? What does it mean if you think your mission is ordained by the gods? What's 43 small folk? We are concerned. We got two dragon riders. Yeah. Okay, let's head to the next scene.

where we find Orwyle treating Allison's arm wound. He is cleaning this slice that she got in the riot last episode, the one that reminds her of the slash that she gave to Rhaenyra on Driftmark in the first season. But Joe, I think we can say

It's the wounds on the inside that need tending right now for these characters. Anyone up for some camping? I thought it was really fascinating that Olivia Cooke said that this wound and this conversation about the scar that we get here is the very reason why.

The cut itself is the very reason why Allison decides to leave. That as cutesy and a little on the nose as I find the fact that they get a cut in the exact same place to Allison, it just signals like how futile all this is. Futile, all of this is. Like that, you know, for us to go from there to here, it's just, it keeps happening. Yeah.

And what have I even ever accomplished after all of this? Yeah, which is essentially what she says to Orwell here.

Right. She says, all my life, I have endeavored to serve both my house and the realm, and somehow none of it mattered. We are cast aside or hated. What did you make of the fact that Orweil is the one on the receiving end of this, like, incredibly vulnerable admission from Alicent? I found it so sad that the only person she had to say this to was Orweil. I also just want to know,

Who is this we? What do you mean by we? Certainly not Orwell, who still has a spot on the council in, like, extreme proximity to the king, you know, currently, et cetera. So does she mean the Hightower? Does she mean Otto as well as herself? Women in the realm? No, but yeah, is she talking about women? But if she's talking about women, like, it's just...

Interesting for her. I know she feels like she has no other person to talk to, but Orwell is an interesting recipient for that. I would encourage Alicent to try to talk to her bug daughter more often. She tries. We've seen her try sometimes. But maybe from the safety of...

Inside. An interior space. No more trips out. Inside chats. But I feel like Orwell is one person you can talk to. But I feel like let's keep trying to shore up that Helena connection. Like, that's...

That feels like a better recipient for something like this. Helena might say something inscrutable and bug-related in response, but like... A little mini dream dispatch. I feel like she's listening. Yeah. Absolutely. Absolutely. Obviously, Rhaenyra is on Alicent's mind when she's saying this, on our mind as well. And then thus, of course, like their history together, their conversations about duty have to be on our minds. Jo, how did this play for you just more generally? Like this is something we talk about

all the time across seasons one and two with Allison. The way that Allison has lived her life

for duty in some ways that feel very true and real in terms of the prominence she puts on the idea of duty, but also then the way that duty has sometimes been the veil of justification for the decisions or choices or bargains that Alicent has made. How did that part sit for you? Yeah, I mean, I think ever since you and Mitchell said to us in the chat that we had with him a couple weeks ago, I believe he used the phrase,

Like, love and duty, which is the core theme of our show, that's just been rattling around my brain. Because obviously we've been talking about love versus duty, like, since Maester Aemon was talking to Jon Snow at the Wall about it. Like, you and I have been thinking about this for years and years and years and years and years.

But to consider the main core of the show, then you can think of like anything in that love or duty binary. And so this idea that Alicent has sacrificed perhaps some things that she loves. Like when we meet Alicent and whether or not you want to take it literally with Alicent and Rhaenyra, which I choose to, but you don't have to. But like when we meet Alicent and Rhaenyra as girls, right?

And like the things that they shared together, the time they shared together, that carefree era of their life, that was like life and pursuits of love. So be those like, you know, just freedom, girlhood, all this sort of stuff like that. And then Otto comes swooping in with duty. Here's your duty. Go read to the old king, you know, like go keep him company, that sort of stuff. And so the way that duty has swallowed love for Alicent is,

And then there are ways in which Rhaenyra has shirked duty for pursuit of love or pleasure, if you prefer. You know, I think there's like various shades of love. I think it's just interesting to think about. And it's like, I don't know. I mean, I think our modern sensibility would tell us that love is more important than duty. But I'm not sure at the end of the day what the Thronesian universe thinks of that. Mm-hmm.

Yeah, I love that. What an interesting thing for us to continue to track an idea that we cherish. We're getting to talk about a lot of our favorite things. Hubris of control, love is the death of duty, wear it like armor. What a time. What a time to be the House of R. Did you also, I have to assume that you were thinking, as we discussed on Talk the Throats, about the Rhaenys

We're going to talk about Rhaenys and Rhaenyra elsewhere, but the Rhaenys-Alicent conversation that we loved so much in the penultimate episode of season one, and yet you toil in service to men, your father, your husband, your son. You desire not to be free, but to make a window in the wall of your prison idea. It just feels like that must be something that Alicent has been thinking about almost every second since that exchange. Yeah.

We talked about this last week, about this idea of her being framed to look like she's inside of a cage. So this idea that she goes out and finds the biggest guy she can find makes a lot of sense to me for Alicent in this moment. Yes. Beyond the window, at last, into the, quote, pond, as Chris called it. That was a delight. Yeah.

Love that guy. Love that guy. Joe, another boy, what a time to be house of our moment came when, or while it's like, it's going to leave a scar. You'll be able to hide it. And then Allison looks over and says, nothing is clean here and sees a rat eating filth off the floor. We were really back in season one, season one here. Here's our guy Preston making an appearance on the video. If you're just listening to this, you won't see Preston, but Joanna is holding a stuffed rat that she has procured for the studio.

He's been here. How'd you feel about the return of Rat Cam? I was delighted. And I was like, Laris, is that you?

Laris, are you listening? I'm glad you were delighted. I remain despondent that they did not do what happened in Fire and Blood and just bring in like legions of cats to control the rats after the rat catchers. They might be around somewhere. There might be cats around in the margins somewhere. I would love for season three to see some cats just trotting across. Cats are notoriously easy to work with on a film set. So, you know, I'm sure they'll do that. I mean, the Flerken performers were great. Let's just get them in here.

Have you ever heard Oscar Isaac?

Talk about working with a cat on Inside Llewyn Davis. Oh, man. I love that movie, but the cat stuff makes me quite sad. It's the funniest thing you've ever heard. Like, Oscar Isaac has never had a worse time in his life. Not even under the apocalypse makeup. Not even when he had to say somehow Palpatine return than when he had to work with a cat. And we love cats, but a nightmare. A nightmare. I love cats and I'd love to see them in the show. I'm standing on this corner and I won't leave it. I won't leave it. Sorry, Oscar. Why would I disagree with you?

Joe Allison finds Sir Rickard in the hall, asks him to escort her to the Kingswood. Only him. No retinue. No handmaidens. She still can't trust her handmaidens, we have to assume, because these are the people we should remember who Laris placed there, just feeling like spies all around her and nobody she can trust. Haven't seen good old eyebrows since Blood and Cheese. Just saying. She vanished. Yeah! Good.

eyebrows. Yeah. Wow. You made an impression. She really did. I hope she comes back to see something.

As we just mentioned, every time Alicent takes Selene out, something terrible happens. One of her sons is just moaning and wailing and falling over and breaking things as he tries to heal. One of her sons fired her. Her husband is dead. Her father's still MIA. Her brother, her lover, off to war. She is just so alone. And you feel that in seeking and in having this conversation with Orweil and seeking out Sir Rickard. Alicent has no friends, nobody.

to truly trust in, confide in, or share life with right now. That's how it feels in this moment. It is heartbreaking. Ladies, this is what happens when you align yourself with the patriarchy. Have some female friends while you do that. Oh man, lessons abound. It's a thrill in my life to tell you that it's time to talk about Laris.

Can you always introduce him with like a rubbing together of your hands? Like you're plotting and scheming at this very moment. This is the stuff. I know. I mean, it's not just a Laris scene. It's not just a Laris and an Iron Rod scene. It is a Laris and Iron Rod scene. Oh,

This is the stuff, Lionel Viserys, Lionel Perch. What a treat. Once again, I am forced to say what a time to be the House of R. And the way that this was shot and framed, this sequence was so cool. We get these profile shots, these side glances from both Lyra and Ironrod that kind of heighten the sense that they're strategizing. They're sizing each other up. And also then, of course, we get to witness...

sending our guys, Marty and Eddie, to the wall. What an end for the Pussy Posse. We genuinely loved you and we will miss you. But that's just kind of playing out in the backdrop of the scene, that like rhythm of life of the Red Keep as Chris called out. So popular on the wall. They're going to be like the Pip and Grant on the wall. It's going to be the making of them. I see it. Uh,

When will we get the Marty and Eddie spinoff? Oh, yeah. They're going to be like in Molestown. Never fucked a woman. Can't wait for Marty to corrupt all of the Night's Watch recruits by taking them to Molestown and saying he's never fucked a woman. Let's hear this conversation and then let's talk about how you're interpreting it and everything we think is at play here. Steve, hit us. I have received word of a matter of great importance. Rumor of the sighting of the dragon Seasmoke with the rider Seasmoke.

A fine piece of intelligence. And now you seek favor by delivering it to Prince Aemond. Actually, I thought I might seek your advice, Lord Larith. Whispers being your province. Oh, but this is your whisper, Lord Jasper, not mine. But if you consider it valuable, perhaps you could deliver it and find favor with Aemond yourself. Oh, but this is your whisper, Lord Jasper, not mine.

I love this. Okay. The framing that you mentioned and we talked about on Talk of the Thrones, but the framing of Aemon in the background, one of the many things that it is giving us, one of the things it's giving us is like Aemon just looks so small. And like he looms so large in this world, large on his biggest dragon in the world and all this sort of stuff like that. But

When it comes to the puppet masters of a palace conspiracy, what is a Naaman Targaryen but another little puppet on their string, right? And so to, like, frame him as this tiny little toy figure over their shoulder. Like the one behind you, right over your shoulder. Quite literally, like the one behind you right over your shoulder. When, like, to frame him like that, you know, which is not to say that, like, that's not really like a...

A spoiler because I think the power just sort of, you know, power resides where men believe it resides. And it's not that Aemond is always going to be a puppet for these two. Like sometimes the dragon riders are the biggest thing in the world, but sometimes their strings get pulled by other people. We talked about this a lot last week when we talked about Massaria. We talked about Laris and we talked about Alice and the way in which they were sort of cozying up

to these very powerful dragon riders, these Targaryen dragon riders. What strings can they pull? How can they shift the sands in one way or another? In this episode, and we'll get to it, we see diminutive Oscar Tully, you know, pulling Daemon around. And so I think just that visual of like tiny little...

Aemon Targaryen and these two men who make a very significant decision here. Huge. Because like part of it is it's nuanced, right? So part of it is I don't want to be the one to tell it. Remember when

various people in the small council meeting told him things a couple weeks ago. And now Kristen Cole has to go fight a battle and Thailand has to go treat with pirates. And Allison got fired. Like, we don't want to put our necks on the chopping block in that regard, right? So it's like, why don't you tell him? Why don't you tell him? So that's all part of it. But also...

It feels like, especially with Laris after his being embarrassed by Aemon at the small council last week, also it feels like a, maybe I don't want to tell Aemon that this threat to his power is brewing. It really feels, it felt to me, I think you could interpret it a number of ways, but it really felt to me like Laris was kind of

gaslighting Jasper when he's like, perhaps his best left to the wind. You know what I mean? Like, when he's like, oh, you heard it from a squire, or heard it from a stable hand, or heard it from, you know, like, that's kind of shaky, fake news, like, unreliable sources there. But I'm sure that Laris has acted on less. You know what I mean? Because the best information can come from your squires and your fishermen and your stable hands and stuff like that. So...

Yeah, so one has to wonder. This is pure speculation. It's not necessarily informed by anything we know from the books. Like, yeah, is this a hilarious play of like, let him twist. He let me twist, let him twist, you know? Right. Yeah, do they think based on what they've witnessed...

It's too late to try to curry favor with Amon. He's not the kind of leader that's going to work with. Is it an active attempt to withhold and punish out of retribution for that you toad shaming? I think I agree there's a number of different ways that we can interpret it. I like the gaslighting of – because when Jasper runs through that –

Like, that's pretty good, actually. That's a pretty good whisper network. And it was so cool, not only in that scene where we follow that custody of information, but also then later where we watch Massario's instructions go from Alan into the fishing skiffs, eventually into Alinda's hand, like tracking these networks on each side of how information is made.

moving such a delightfully specific bit of visibility into the nature of communication and the flow of information in the story. And then for Laris to be like, not so great, actually. Like, are you sure you want to pass it along? Like,

whatever his motivation is for whether he wants this news to reach Amen, there's also then the always like the thinking about how another person is going to be positioned compared to you in the council. So all of that felt like it was a play. And like, it really reminded me of that great season one

Varys-Littlefinger conversation in front of the Iron Throne when Illyrio is in town, you know, since you last saw me or since I last saw you, specifically because on the one hand, in both of these scenes, I think there is something obvious about what is driving each party, but then also something totally inscrutable to be able to, like, pull all of that off at once.

once to leave us like really wondering what is driving a decision but also say like I think I have the measure of you is a hard thing to do and it felt like expertly achieved and very scintillating in a scene like this so it's just great just great and just cloaked in this sort of like

smiling, smarmy, you know, courtliness. I just, yeah, I really loved it. And we get that great look then from Aemond up at Lyris, like at the end of the scene, that was also delightful. And then later, of course, when the dragon, when Silverwing makes its way into the city, great look, fascinating, rich look passes between Lyris and Ironrod. And you know, they're like, oh, is it sea smoke? The thing we didn't tell

Right, right, right.

Tough look for Reyna. Tough look for Reyna that literally everyone knows this. Not ideal. Must feel terrible. Must feel absolutely terrible. Absolutely terrible. We will have another wonderful Lara scene to discuss later. Anything else on this one before we move to the next scene? No, let's go to my favorite. Keltigar. Your guy. Your guy, Big Bart. What a blessing that...

Alfred Broome has just been sort of swept out of the narrative for a couple episodes and we haven't had to check in on it. Let me tell you who I've not missed. Sir Alfred. This is how long it takes to get from Dragonstone to Harrenhal if you're not on a dragonback. Oh, man. I gotta say, I am loving this energy from Keltigar. I find this to be hilarious. Like, genuinely hysterical. He's just...

embarrassed clearly about Rhaenyra slapping him in a view of the household staff word rapidly traveling through Dragonstone everybody knows what happened and he's just like slamming his goblet on the table on the painted table throughout this conversation and saying things like a commoner with respect to your

workers Lord Corlys the lowborn cannot go around seizing dragons like this was just hysterical like a nice little bit of levity in a quite intense episode I do want to give some laurels to Corlys who I think is a nice sort of calming steering presence and is you know supportive of Rhaenyra inside of his job here Jace's

pissed that Rhaenyra yeah in general and we'll talk about that at length obviously but he's also just like in the small scale pissed that Rhaenyra has skipped this meeting and I just you know I just like that yeah Rhaenyra skipped the meeting but Corlys is her hand and Corlys is there representing

representing her yeah you know it's like it's okay we'll wait for the queen's judgment and then we'll figure it out yeah everyone chill um part of what is making jace and and uh everyone other than corliss so unhappy here is like not just that renear is not at the meeting obviously like you said we'll talk about everything that is driving jace's uh resentment later in the in the rich and riveting jace reneara conversation about uh being a bastard they learn that

Not only is Adam not being treated as a thief, he's invited to stay as a guest. Readying, Girardi says, to learn the ways of dragon riding. Rhaenyra wants him to learn some High Valyrian too. He has just immediately been brought into the fold. And Jace's face here just tells us everything we need to know about how displeased he is. They're like, the tailors are with him right now, getting his leathers together. Um...

On the subject of like teaching him high Valyrian, do you think it would have been nice to have some flashcards ready for the Dragon Seeds as they got off the boat to Dragonstone towards the end of this episode? The Dragon Seeds, they could have used, I know Rhaenyra's like, I have nothing left to tell you. It must be the dragon who speaks. It's like, are we sure we have nothing left to tell them? Are we sure we have nothing left to tell them? One word of Valyrian, just like one.

Please stop. No, I'm not food. Something like that. I respect you. I expect your autonomy. Something. A dragon is not a slave. I know that. I don't know.

Yeah, we've got a lot of notes on that and a lot of notes on maybe staggering the arrivals. Like, let's just send them out in waves. Like, it's just all at once. It really does seem like it was bound to only go one way. All right, Joe. Rhaenyra is not at the council meeting because she is, once again, debriefing with Mysaria and only Mysaria. She's fed up broadly with her advisors, but she trusts Mysaria. And she is starting to trust herself and her own instincts, too. Partly because she's

Part of that is like, great. Yes, you should. We love it. And again, as mentioned, and as we will discuss at length in this scene, we have some concerns about where those instincts might be leading Rhaenyra. Let's talk about that. Because this other thing that is driving Rhaenyra

It's manifested in a number of different seasons in the episode. We're going to talk about it all here. So when Masario says he's lucky, uses the word lucky to describe Adam deciding to serve Rhaenyra and not himself, Rhaenyra says, lucky?

or somehow ordained. Sea Smoke chose him. So we hear this similarly alarming language later in the Jace Rhaenyra scene. That's the Gainse line. We hear this when Rhaenyra confronts the exodus of the dragon keepers. We see it undeniably on Rhaenyra's face when she touches Vermithor, when Vermithor...

it heeds her summons. So let's, even though it's stitched off the episode, kind of talk about the implications of this here. Dangerous, alarming words. And if you think your mission is ordained, if you think your mission is divined, then we have to ask, like, is there anything that you won't do? Anything you won't try? And is there anything you won't be able to justify for yourself? Crucially, before we get into these core passages here that we want to talk about,

This idea of justification is something that has been so prevalent in the show. And it's a key part of this adaptation challenge because George in Fire and Blood is writing this very sort of bare bones history of like, and then the dragons danced and then this happened and...

that bitch queen, hated Rhaenyra, that bitch princess, and like all sorts of like that. And Condal, et cetera. And I'm sure George, because, you know, he has thoughts and feelings about the bias of the historians writing this book. But like their mission is to take those thinly sketched out,

people who commit atrocities yes and turn them into human beings that we can recognize and part of that like challenge is a way to combat that is this idea of justification how do you justify the horrors that you perpetrate and for alicent it's like she's been justifying it with

This is what Viserys wanted on his deathbed. He milk of the poppy moaned this and told me that it was what should be done. You know, and for Rhaenyra, she's been like talking about the prophecy this way all season, et cetera. But like it's moving into a different territory that is a lot slipperier. So what did you want to say about this?

Yeah, to that point, like the way that Rhaenyra has been talking about the prophecy, that feels worth just like spending a second on because if we go back now to the way Rhaenyra shared this information, shared Aegon the Conqueror's dream with Jace, some of the specific language stands out anew. Rhaenyra said in the fourth episode of the season, I never told you because I was unsure that I believed it myself.

That is now a thing that we are watching shift, right? Now I have belief and I have justification. Here we go. All right, the quote continues. The Targaryen who sits the Iron Throne is not just a king or queen. They are a protector ordained to lead the seven kingdoms. So there's that ordained language again. To strengthen them and to unite them against a common foe. Viserys chose me to succeed him. He held to this his whole life, the whole of his life. My father believed that

I alone was meant to be this protector, but to unite the realm, I had to send the dragons to war. Had to, Jo. Had to. The horrors I have just loosed cannot be for a crown alone. What is wrapped up in that? It has to be for this larger reason, and so we are feeling... Divine purpose. Yeah. This...

building and blooming of Rhaenyra drinking the prince that was promised, Kool-Aid, Rhaenyra thinking, I am the chosen one. And we know that her family is prone to these kinds of like prophetic obsessions, as we've talked about many a time, Viserys, that great scene by the bonfire where he's just...

letting out everything drunk completely to Alicent. And he says, I so wanted it to be true, to be a dreamer myself. I sought that vision again night after night, but it never came again. I poured all my thought and will into it. My obsession killed Rhaenyra's mother. So we need only go back one family member to see Rhaenyra

When Viserys names Rhaenyra Ere, it's by telling her Aegon's prophecy, but also we saw where an obsession with a different dream, his dream of his son wearing the Conqueror's crown, led him and what it means to put all your stock in this godly prophetic sense of what your life is going to look like and what bearing that will have on the realm. And Rhaenyra was not always a character who felt like she had to say these things out loud, Jo, right? When she saw the White Heart, did she tell anybody about it?

What no. And what I love about this is like when that white heart thing happened again in the show, not the book, you and I like really liked it. And we liked this idea of but we were curious about I think we were curious about it. Like, what is this doing here? Especially if she's not going to tell anyone. What does it mean that it's here? What it means to me now is that some of the.

ideas that are brewing around who this version of Rhaenyra is, which again is an embellishment from the book, is something that was on their mind from the jump, from the get-go. That white stag, which is this sort of like blessing, the sign and portent from on high that you are the chosen one, is something that feeds into this larger fire here. This chosen one...

We love talking about a chosen one. This is like a sort of demolition of that chosen one archetype that we talked about. This is the anti-I don't want it narrative that I guess I've been asking for, but I'm a little scared to get it now. Right? But this like, I mean, you could not see Raniere at the end of this. You know, we heard last week, as recently as last week,

Or in this episode, right? Does Viserys say Rhaenyra didn't want it? Right? Like, I don't know if moldy Viserys said it, but like certainly we heard this said. Last week we hear Alice and Daemon talk about it. Right? Daemon saying it. And then this week Viserys is like, the burden, it destroys people. Burden. But like, did Viserys say Rhaenyra didn't want it?

I think that was... My point is, that was definitely a Damon and Alice conversation. So there's this concept that Rhaenyra doesn't want it. But I don't think you can look at Rhaenyra's face at the end of this episode or while she's watching 43 innocent dragon seeds plus her guards get torched and say, this is a woman who doesn't want it. Totally. You know, and so...

According to Emma, which I think is really interesting, Emma Darcy, as I mentioned, gave a couple of really fascinating interviews, one to The Wrap and one to British GQ after this episode aired. Yeah.

a lot of this is connected to Rhaenyra grieving Viserys, that she shoved her head in. We've seen her in the library constantly looking at books, looking at scrolls. You've been, you've been tracking the sort of Visenya stuff. But I think what's interesting is like, and we had mentioned like, oh, this is, this is her kind of in Viserys mode. Viserys loves his history books. But like reading those books, like,

has to only fuel the flames of this idea of Targaryen exceptionalism, right? This is Targaryen propaganda writ into the history books. This idea of stoking the belief in her own godlike status is

But the fact that she did all that because she missed her dad, according to Emma Darcy, is like so heartbreaking. I mean, this is a very actorly kind of connection that Emma has drawn, but I really love it as a motivation. So Emma said to British EQ, in lieu of that, in lieu of the relationship with her father and with the support of her father, so in lieu of that,

quote, there's that searching through the histories. I think imagining that at some point her name will feature next to her father's is in some way comforting. And I find it very moving to see a person who in grief has committed themselves to history books. But what's wild and interesting to me is like, we're going to talk a little bit more about blood sacrifice a little bit later on, but this idea that like, Vassarious... Amazing sentence. You could say...

Stay tuned for the blood sacrifice chat. You can say that Viserys doomed the future by lingering too long in the past, right? Like he neglected what was going around him to build his models and read his books and think about the fact that if we don't study the past, we're doomed to repeat it. But like in doing so and in creating this current scenario, what we saw the red sewing in,

is the closest thing we've seen to old Valyria shit thus far in Game of Thrones. And so, in a way, Viserys himself sort of brought about the return of old Valyria, which is something that he was constantly concerned about. And I just think that, like, I also have been thinking about, in terms of drinking the Kool-Aid,

The thing is, like, she's drinking the Kool-Aid, but Rhaenyra's also, she's also pouring the Kool-Aid. She's Jim's Jones-ing her way through the end of this episode. But, like, I was also thinking of the other Viserys, the Viserys we met in season one of Game of Thrones, Daenerys' brother, who says fire cannot burn a dragon, like, unless it's, I guess, molten gold on my head. Like, Viserys, who had so bought into the hype of,

of Targaryen exceptionalism to a degree that made him look foolish. And I wouldn't call Rhaenyra foolish. I don't think I'll ever be in a position to call Rhaenyra foolish. But yeah, how seductive and dangerous this idea is, is fascinating. And I think it's so interesting to contrast Rhaenyra's like,

old, gaudy religious conversion arc that she's on in this episode to Allison's more empty, institutional-level faith that I still don't really understand what religion means to her. I think I understand. Again, we've talked about this. We've talked about her lighting candles in the sept. We've heard from her as a child what that meant to her. But in terms of the actual teachings...

of the seven. Like, I don't know that I really understand what Alison's connection is to that. And I feel like she felt more connected to something spiritual watching a hawk fly above her in a pond in this episode than anything we've seen in the Sept. But thinking about the Sept, I was thinking about that moment with Alison to Rhaenyra in the Sept, which we loved, Mission Impossible, King's Landing. Yeah.

When Rhaenyra, who had been floundering all season, floundered a bit after that, but floundering, floundering, and when she drills down on Alicent and gets the confirmation that actually Viserys did still believe in her. Yes. I thought that was like a personal father-daughter relationship.

that she needed. My dad really did believe in me and it was. Right. But also... But I don't think the religious setting there is an accident in terms of what it... Yeah. What it did to Rhaenyra's psychology. Yeah, yeah. Great call. Great call. That feels incredibly intentional now as a setting. I love... I love considering that grief and pursuit of the histories is a bond to Viserys' idea because it also is like...

You know, like you're saying, it's hard not to think then that or ask, well, in seeking that connection, in feeling like she has emerged as this prophetic figure, as this messianic figure, has Rhaenyra forgotten? Has Rhaenyra lost sight of Viserys' number one lesson to her? The thing that he drew the most attention to in this big speech when he named her heir was

The idea that we control the dragons is an illusion. They're a power men should never have trifled with, one that brought Valyria its doom. If we don't mind the histories, it will do the same to us. Is that something that Rhaenyra is still...

is that on her mind as a counterweight when we head into the sewing? It doesn't feel like it. It feels like that has been subsumed. Well, I feel like when she calls Vermithor and Vermithor answers, that's the moment that any last lingering idea that she's thinking about that from Viserys, she's like, well, maybe for other people, but not for me. Dangerous and troubling. Whew.

Okay, let's talk about the rest of this Rhaenyra-Missaria scene. So Rhaenyra's still thinking about Adam's blood. She says he must have targ blood. Seasmoke must have sensed it. And Missaria asks about this idea of trust. Like, do you trust Adam? And Rhaenyra says she has no choice. And this is like a fascinating way for us to just think about the state of play right now. Like, allies...

on nukes who you don't know, right? And from Rhaenyra's perspective in this moment, it's like, well, I have to trust him because of the dragon math. Like, we're always thinking about how we can face Vhagar and what choice do we have. And then this leads into this conversation about, like, how can we find more riders?

This idea of the more direct line of breeding than Stefan had. And upon hearing that, Massaria like laughs, chuckles, kind of a shocking moment in real time. And then says, forgive me your grace, but you are better served looking under the sheets and in the wood piles. Massaria got mushrooms famous. Fire and blood.

and bloodline. When Jace pointed out that Stormcloud had never been ridden, that Moondancer was but a hatchling, that Tyraxes was far away in the Vale with Prince Joffrey and demanded to know where Mushroom proposed to find more dragons, the dwarf tells us he laughed and said, under the sheets and in the wood piles, wherever you Targaryens spill your silver seed. Vivid, as we always expect from Mushroom. Um...

This growing theory in the fandom that I love that Massaria is actually Mushroom is like killing me. Some incredible, incredible stuff. Massaria tells Rhaenyra she's aware of four score Targ bastards at least from her time in the Pleasure House in King's Landing. The misbegotten offspring of your house, she calls them. Jo, for the bad babies, a quick refresher on just what a dragon seed is.

Great question. A dragon seed is an illegitimate child of a Targaryen. Here's the history of dragon seeds in the first night. This idea of prima nocta, the idea that a Lord could, a Targaryen Lord could sleep with your, yeah, definitely my fave. You love making the cruel. I love prima nocta. What are we doing here? The idea that a Targaryen Lord can sleep with your wife on your wedding night because normal. They're gods. What are you going to do? They've got dragons.

From Fire and Blood, quote here, That being said,

Good Queen Alisaine was like, I don't like that. I don't want it happening anymore. Get that out of here. So, Prebenoxa, essentially, not legal anymore. It still happened. Not legal. But, so then the idea of a dragon scene as this, like, sort of cherished thing, I think, goes away is the idea. And then it just becomes a bit more like...

The rando rabble that Massaria and Elinda sort of round up from King's Landing. Like, this is how you get a hue in an office. They're certainly not venerated for their seedy properties. So, yeah. Right. Rhaenyra's initial response to the suggestion was...

I think quite unflattering. Not a good one for the royals this episode. Some tough stuff from Runiera and some very tough stuff coming from Jace. She doesn't trust the lowborn. She says in the highborn houses, there is an ancient fealty. There is honor. Now,

And we should note in the interest of fairness here that there is like a practical element at play in what Rhaenyra is saying here. With your vassal houses, there's accountability in the form of an oath. Now, have we seen broken oaths? Sure. So many vows that make you swear and swear. I think it's underlined elsewhere with all the Oscar Tully stuff that we get.

right like the river lords and stuff like that it's like we're all coming in line because of a vow that Oscar's grandsire gave to Viserys you know

Damon made that difficult for a while, but at the end of the day, we're stitched together by Oves. I can't wait to talk about that scene. So there is that. But it feels undeniable that there's also some prejudice at play here. And then we have to remember how Rhaenyra talked about the small folk in the fourth episode of last season on a little city jaunt with Damon when she said their wants are of no consequence. Tough. Mysaria Swayzer, by asking, and this was a great counter,

Well, your royal brothers of their pure blood, how much honor have they shown by usurping your throne? And then says, the order of things has changed your grace. Why not embrace it? Jo, the order of things. What did it make you think of? What did it make Rhaenyra think of? Season one, episode two, Rhaenyra's like, guess what I heard in the very first trailer for House of the Dragon back in 2021.

whenever that happens 2021 uh when i am queen i will create a new order is what millie alcock said as uh raniera targaryen uh a young brash teen um so like that's great that's all great and good and let us raise an army of bastards a great slogan love that put it on the merch um

But this is... Massaria has been doing her job and incepting some concepts into Rhaenyra. Rhaenyra is still saying some, like, shitty things about the small folk, but at the end of the day...

Right. Two small folk are now dragon riders. And that's not happening if Misaria isn't there in Dragonstone sort of working her personal agenda. Yes, the rise of the small folk. This is what Misaria wants. So that moment then that let us raise an army of bastards line that you just quoted when Rhaenyra says that, like we get this brief moment before that, Rhaenyra alluding to her own personal history, the whispers across the realm going on since Jace was born about her kids, her first three sons,

and she decides to lean in. We're going to talk about all of the fucked up and twisted and alarming parts of this when we get to the Jace scene, but there is also a little bit of a this is Rhaenyra's

This could be Rhaenyra's wear it like armor moment, right? Never forget what you are, for surely the world will not. Make it your strength, then it can never be your weakness. Now, it is not purely only that. There's complexity at play here. We'll talk about the rest of it. But this is here too, right? If everybody's going to whisper, if everybody's going to talk, if everybody's going to say your kids are bastards anyway, then why not wear it like armor moment?

and say we're team bastard. Now we'll get to the why not. Jace has some thoughts on the why not coming. Yeah. But this is here too, right? I really like this. Again, we mentioned, I think last week when we were talking about this idea of bastardy across thrones and what George has done with it. When we think about Jon Snow, we think about Ramsay. We think about Gendry, et cetera, et cetera. And this idea that like,

George loves Shakespeare. He took this like Shakespearean concept, which is like all bastards are like villains.

Like, you know, have an agenda, have anger issues they're working through. Keanu Reeves is Don John in Much Ado About Nothing. It's just like, I'm a plain dealing villain, right? Like, there isn't much in the way of nuanced motivation there. And the fact that he's like, I think this concept could use some examination and some complications. And I think I'm so glad we're spending time with it here. Yeah.

Let's talk about more bastards. Team Bastards. Let's talk about both scenes. The next scene is Corlys seeking out Adam. Corlys seeking out Alan comes a little later, but let's talk about them together here. So first, Corlys finds Adam. He's waiting alone in a fancy room at Dragonstone. I found it difficult not to think about Gendry in Throne Season 3 here. It's different, of course, like Adam...

to be here. He's claimed a dragon. This is a thing that he is now seeking and pursuing. Gendry has no idea that they're about to, like, leech him for his bastard's blood. But still, there's this, like, a bastard brought in to the halls of the Great Lords to be a pawn on the board of some Great Lords game that I found, like, inescapable and seemingly deliberate in the framing of how we first found this figure alone in this fancy room. Give them some friends. Yeah.

Let's talk about this conversation between Adam and Corliss. I was like so moved by the look on Adam's face when his father walked into the room and then the look on his face again after the well done, just an incredible performance here. Incredible. Clinton Liberty is doing a great job. Yeah. Crushing it. So we had a mini debate with Chris on Talk the Thrones because we both found this well done that Corliss issued here to be quite cold. And Chris was like,

You are not a son of a father. This was like an offer to play catch. We really did not read the scene the same way. So I still feel that this is like,

Not a full emotional embrace here. I stand on that. I stand on that read. But I was I will say I was really compelled by what friend of the pod Steve Toussaint said on the inside the episode when he said being initially shocked, Corliss is then very proud. It's because that's my son off his own back. He's made something of himself. And I think that's very important for Corliss because that's how he sees it.

And hearing him say that, of course, made me think then of what Corliss says to Damon in season one, episode two, waiting in the stepstones is a chance for you to prove your worth to any who might yet doubt it. We are the realm's second sons, Damon. Our worth is not given. It must be made. I think both...

Both of those things can be true, though. I think that Corliss can look at Adam and feel our worth is not given. It must be made him feel pride and also be a little bit cold by hand-waving the I don't want to be a shipwright anymore request. Sure, you got it. Well done. And then leaving. Where are you on this? I'm willing to concede that Chris is more right than we were in his read of the scene, at least how the show intends it. Yes, definitely. We did get this great email, I thought, from Kevin, probably also a son of a father, who says...

Y'all love a character on an arc, and this just showed the start of Corliss' within his sons and actually showing emotions. While he's not quite ready to fully claim them and get them legitimized, he still was feeling things and wanting to say something. And you could tell how proud he was and that good luck. And you'd see on Adam's face how much that meant to him. The fact of the matter is Corliss probably doesn't know how to feel. He's going through a lot and he had just come out.

out and been like, if you had just come out and been like, hell yeah, that's my boy. I'm so proud of you. You're amazing. Even in private, it would have been totally against what we know of the character. I would have taken you out of the episode. So Kevin Roden is a port of Chris. Fair. Totally fair. Steve Toussaint is also apparently team Chris Ryan. So we'll just continue to watch this character on an arc. I will say for me. See our heads. What a win. Yeah. I will say for me, pretty frosty. But listen. Yeah. Just like a little like

you know, I know we haven't talked much. Yeah. I'll visit again soon. Yeah. Anything. Do you need anything? Do you have enough blankets? If, if Rainey's were here, she would bring you warm broth. Sad. Bread's still hot. Um, let's talk about the Allen scene. Take, take us through it. Uh, all right. So we go back to our favorite set, which they have just used a lot of, uh, the season, which is the docs. Um,

And Corliss tells Alania it's a task that needs your, quote, your personal attention. And I think it's wild. I mean, I don't know.

I guess if I were Adam, maybe I'd just be giddy and overwhelmed by my giddy ascent that now I am a dragon rider and I'm at Dragonstone. But I would maybe the first thing I would do is try to get a raven to my brother to be like, Alan, my best friend in all the world. Let me tell you something. But instead, it's Corlys who gets to break the news to Alan that his brother is a dragon rider. And...

So Corley says to Alan, quote, she now makes the call for others. Our people are of old Lyria, but we are no dragon lords. I confess I knew little of your mother's heritage. If it is something in the blood...

And then Alan says, my brother was ever restless, yearning for some sign of his worth. I am of Salton Sea. I yearn for nothing. So like, this is pretty loaded. You already alluded to in our sort of like,

dragon pairing how does it happen section but like this idea that that we're being sort of pushed in the direction that adam and alan's mom might be a dragon scene is sort of like a potential implication of what's happening here like that chorus is like is she i didn't bother to get to know her never asked tough stuff her hair is pretty blonde but so is mine um and then uh

Then we get that salt and sea line reading, which... So, on the one hand, there's, like, a couple... You've noted here in our notes here that, like, there are a couple moments throughout the season that are, of course, leading us in this direction when Corlys, who's... From the very first second we saw Corlys and Alan in this...

the talk was of heirs, right? We have the dagger, which is Joffrey's dagger, is in that very first scene. So this has just been like hanging over the entire season. And then later when Corlys is talking to Rhaenys, Joffrey, a boy of six who knows nothing of the sea and yet somehow, Rhaena, Lord of the Tides, the girl knows nothing of ships. And then of course, very recently, episode five, we get Rhaenys

His conversation with Bela where he says, Grand Arda would make you my heir. And she says, I am blood and fire. Sick. Driftmark must pass to salt and sea. I loved that line. Yeah. I am slightly itchy about Alan saying the exact same thing.

Because, like, I think there are ways – I think we were already thinking about Alan. But I think there are ways for him to say something in this conversation that puts that little light bulb over Corlys' head of, like, he doesn't want a dragon. Maybe he wants my chair, my throne. He wants the gig.

That doesn't have to be the literally exact same words that Bela used in that previous scene. That's that cutesy connection stuff that would happen again in later Seasons of Thrones that I didn't really like. That being said, I love Alan. I love things for him. I think him calling himself Salton Sea is pretty sick. So, yeah. Do you think...

Maybe everyone's just walking around Driftmark all the time just being like, I'm Salton C. Like, you tired of chipping these barnacles? No, I'm Salton C. This is the stuff. Maybe he and Bela took the same, like, you know, Seventeen Magazine quiz where it's like, are you fire and blood? I'm Salton C. Are you Salton C? Did you get Salton C? Which Hogwarts house are you? I'm Salton C. You know? Great stuff. Great stuff. But now I want Bela and Alan to get, like, matching...

Once is fire and blood. Once is salt and sea. This is good. It bodes well for some impending inbound merch. It does. Love merch. I am salt and sea, by the way. I am not fire and blood. In real life, I'm also salt and sea. You know, also love at Ocean Vista. In this fictional universe, I...

I 100% am one of the dragon seeds who gets on that boat and walks into the pond and tries to claim a dragon and is burned to the breast. Doesn't make it far than that. What are some of the other options? I guess if you're a Riverlander, you're like, what, mud and... Mud and, yeah, stuck, sticky mud. Mud.

Mud and branch. Mud and branch. You know, there's many things you can be. Snow and wind. Dorn your legs, sun and sand, which is why we should all go to Dorn, really. Pretty good. Yeah. You know, Greenwald was right on the Dorn corner early. But let's go to the Riverlands, Jo. Let's go into that sticky, muddy, swampy place to talk about young Oscar Tully and the Riverlords.

repeatedly posterizing Damon Targaryen. Astonishing stuff here. This was a wild sequence. Before we're out in the Godswood with all of the Riverlords assembled, we get a little private chat between Damon and Oscar. Exactly the kind of little pregame chat we're always asking characters to have. And I do want to give...

Jace, some credit for his later conversation. That's a private conversation. Great call. Great call. All we want. Yeah. Like, yeah. Let's just say these really shocking things to each other. Let's say mongrel behind closed doors, Jace.

Or, better yet, not at all. Not at all is what I would suggest. If he'd done it at the council table, Bart would have been like, oh yeah, Keltzgaard would have been like, oh my God, I'm trying to say that. Yeah, exactly. Keltzgaard's like, let me tell you about Project 2025. Do you have a minute to talk about that? Oh my God.

Oh, dear. Oh, Sir Simon. Perfect timing for Simon to make his way into the soundboard. A great idea from Joe. Thank you, Steve. Because Simon is here, of course. We're at Heron Hall. I feel like my record for latching on to an old veteran actor that I like early in a season has really paid off for me two years in a row. So, just saying. Just every second with Simon.

A gift. It's been a gift. A treasure. The only thing that could fill the hole in my heart left by the absence of Lyman Beesbury is Sir Simon Strong. Bees, man. Another great mention of House Beesbury from Iron Rod in this episode. The beehive. The beehive is thriving. Beehive. Truly. So.

A little preamble from Oscar and Damon here. We are treated to, I think, a genuinely, instantly iconic, truly glorious, well done from Damon. Neither of them. Mince words. Damon's like, yeah, you were of no use to me when we last met and your grand sire was still alive. No one had actually gotten a feather pillow yet. And Oscar says...

So Daemon has made a complete mess of things in the Riverlands. And this is where we get to that oaths idea. He says, but the Riverlands are built on oaths. And he remembers the one that his house swore to Viserys. House Tully will recognize Rhaenyra as heir. And Daemon's like, great news. This is going to be smooth and easy from here. Thrilled to hear it. Not so fast.

Oscar's not sure if all of the vassals are going to come in line immediately. He is quite young. And there's another note, Joe, that he's prepared to share here. And it is that all of his vassals hate Daemon Targaryen. He literally says, they all hate you. What does Daemon say in reply? What did it make you think of? He says, I don't need their love. I need their swords. Which is just incredible stuff. Daemon, everyone needs love. Viserys told Jorah,

Who can rule without wealth or fear or love when he was having a full-on tantrum about how everyone liked Daenerys more than him. Yeah, he was in a tough spot there. Yeah. I really like this because obviously Daemon doesn't have love. That's apparent. But I think it's also apparent that he doesn't have fear either. We're going to see that again in this scene. But we also heard it in the fifth episode when Lady Malister was like, know this, interlock.

The Riverlands are an ancient place watched closely by the eyes of old gods and new and dragon or no, we shall not raise our banners for a tyrant. Like they are not wild, wild stuff. They are not afraid of the rogue prince. They are not afraid of his dragon. And in a way that is, is kind of shocking. And, you know, this is like an interesting part of this larger tapestry across the episode of the season. We we've talked already about when you're discussing like, is it blood? Is it worth, uh,

Whether it's what do you need to be a writer or what do you need to be a ruler and a leader? What do you need to build alliances? Like this question of what qualities are necessary to possess and then how the characters who are in that situation are assessing that and parsing that is fascinating. On the Lady Malister front, does she remind you at all of one of our favorite Rings of Power characters, Malva? Yeah.

And how excited are you that we are about to talk about Rings of Power again? You haven't thought about Malva in a while, but here we are. A mere weeks away. There was a sick new Comic-Con trailer. And, you know, were we not hanging on by a thread? Maybe we'd break it down, but we'll just save all that up for when we cover Rings of Power in earnest.

I love this because, so they go up, the shot that Chris loved of them like walking out of the tunnel into the godswood. But what I love about this conversation is this is like a, yeah, a pregame chat. And it's an agreement to put on a little bit of theater. Let's go put on a little, let's put on a little show. And I'm going to kick you around in front of the Riverlands, Riverlords. But ultimately at the end of the day,

You're going to get what you want, which is them falling in line. I need to kick you around so that they obey me. I am but a young man. I need to impress upon them that I have authority. So if I kick you around, they will obey me. And in obeying me, I will tell them to obey you. And that is the deal we're about to make. They both have some final convincing to do. Yeah, this is the deal that we're going to make when we go out here.

Now, did Oscar go a little harder than Damon anticipated he would? Yes. Sure did. But I feel like when he's like later, when he's like careful boy, a very like Tywin moment was a real like, I'm letting you kick me around because we agreed that it was the right move. But come on. Keep it in bounds. Incredible behind the scenes detail.

from the House of Dragons built about the fact that the face in the weirwood tree at Heron Hall is George R. R. Martin's face. And I just want to say, love this for George. George seemed like genuine. There was like footage of George on set, like looking at it like that. He seemed genuinely like

thrilled by it and I don't say justice for George who I believe correct me if I'm wrong I looked I looked this up I was pretty sure I'm right uh D&D never put him in the Hall of Faces they put a lot of people in the Hall of Faces on Game of Thrones a lot of like

people they knew famous faces blah blah but I don't think George made his way into the Hall of Faces but here he is in the goddamn God's Wood of Arenal right by the God's eye sick love it for George the stones throw from the Isle of Faces is exceptional what a place to be what a place to rest love it

I also loved Damon addressing the group by saying, let's just put that old unpleasantness behind us. Your wives, your children, we sacked, we pillaged. Well, let's call it the old unpleasantness. Let's move forward. It's time for you to pledge your fealty to Oscar Tully and then call your banners. And some folks have some notes here.

Lord Piper, you have asked me formally in the doc to use his full name, Peter Piper. Peter Piper. Peter, please. Peter Piper picked a pack of River Lords, and here we are. Well, let's know, first, why would we follow someone younger than, you know, our own sons if you're going to align us with someone who, quote, desecrates the innocent to reach his aims? What a wonderful reputation to have. And Oscar is prepared to address their concerns while savagely dunking on Damon like,

dozens of times in a row. Steve, can we hear this? And I have no love for Daemon Targaryen. He is dishonored himself and the crown with his comportment here. Nevertheless, having so little experience to guide me, my best course is to defer to the oath my grandsire swore to King Viserys when he named Rhaenyra his heir. I see no reason to cast aside loyalty.

no matter how loathsome I may find her representative, the prince. King, mind your tongue, boy. Will you have our army or not? Incredible. I love this. Incredible. Great stuff from Oscar Telly. What a showing here. Archie Barnes, um...

His voice is so perfect for this. There are a few moments I spotted here, and I would have to go back and rewatch his earlier appearance, that seemed dubbed back over 80-yard. And actually, we got a couple emails about this, too, and they were wondering if it was for a change in the wording. I actually think Archie Barnes, who was, I think, either 16 or 17 when they filmed this season, he's just got that perfect, my voice has just changed voice.

to his voice that I almost wonder if it was like, you know, a cracker, you know, like, you know, we're just trying to get the perfect, like, just barely a man. Right. Yeah. Heightening the gall that David is like, I can't believe I have to just sit here and like eat shit from this literal, literal boy, literal teenager. Little child. Some wonderful,

stuff from Sir Simon in this episode? In this scene, what struck you most? First of all, incredible side-eye from Sir Simon Strong. He really got himself gussied up for this occasion, which I love. Our listener Ryan says...

First of all, he says, I hope y'all are feeling better. I hope you're feeling better, Mallory. I wanted to submit for FitWatch the awesome robes of Sir Simon Strong in episode seven. Not only are they very pretty, richly dyed and intricately patterned, but I love the idea that this man told Damon there was no money to fix the leaky, leaky roof and then pulled out his fabulous robes. And as soon as real company, the River Lords arrived. What a king. Yeah, he looks great.

Fantastic. Yeah. Fantastic. Yeah. I mean, it's just with a side eye, some, Oh dear. Uh, his hair is like combs differently than it usually is. It's just like, uh, you know, he's having, he's having a, uh, it's Simon's big day out. He got to go out into the courtyard. Look, if you could save your coin, have Damon uses for the repair and save yours for more, uh, more ropes for fit watch. Yeah. Among us again, aspirational. So there's one path forward. Oscar sketches it out.

Willem Blackwood must die for his crimes. Damon must be the one to do it in order to show that he is contrite for his part in this. And there's a moment where Damon thinks intently and then he rushes over and swings Dark Sister as Willem begs him saying, I have been faithful. So where are you on this? A massive close-up on Matt Smith in that moment. Just like zoom in on his face. Where are you on this? Did it surprise you? Does it still feel surprising at all that...

Damon struggled at all or does this feel right? Once again, the inside of the episode is here to help smooth over specific questions Joanna and Mallory have about character motivations inside of an episode. Connell says that, quote, Damon isn't the most honorable guy in the world, but I think he does have that kind of mafia honor to him. He's made this sort of life and death pact with Will and Blackwood. Omerta, I suppose. So, like, we were like, like, Damon just, like, happily cut Damon's

head in half and keep his tongue. Like, why would he be so stressed about this? But I guess, according to Condal, there is some sort of code of conduct when it comes to Damon. I like it too. It works for me. I like too the idea that Damon's like, this guy actually, did he,

you know, use Rainier's banner when I told him that there were certain things that we must not be seen doing. He did, but like, he's loyal to me. He'll do the things I need getting done. And that's a loss for Damon. As all of these other people stand around and are like, fuck you, we hate you, we despise you, you've destroyed our home. Willow's like, what do you need, boss? I think it's also a really fun cycle to think about because the fact that they use the character of Willow Blackwood

who we met in season one as this, like, brash young boy who, like, swooped in at Storm's End and really impressed us all in front of Rhaenyra and, like, fucking killed a brat. Okay. So, like, the fact that that... We're like, what a...

mouthy little kid like we love this and then to be taken down by another badass mouthy little kid from the riverlands i think it's just sort of like same as it ever was you know you live long enough to see yourself become the object of a new teenager's uh ire um

Our listener Josh, we already sort of covered this when we talked about the framing of Aemond versus Laris and Jasper in the courtyard, this idea of proximity and size to power. But our listener Joshua says, visually, this scene generously emphasizes how small Tully is compared to Daemon in a very similar way to how human size is emphasized next to dragons. The power imbalance is clear. King's consort versus little boy, dragon versus human size.

Oscar Tolley does not have a dragon, but he is able to bend Damon to his will using diplomatic trickery and clear-eyed understanding of Damon's weaknesses, what foreign relations wonks would call soft power. He lays a trap for Damon to walk into and gives a few shots off at him in the process, enhancing his own image amongst the Rulands. So this idea that Oscar Tolley...

uh, wrote a dragon in this episode, broke a dragon, claimed a dragon, you know? Yeah. Yeah. I love that. Great. A great call. And I, that felt very just palpable in this scene too. This just like sense of injustice that Damon feels that he has to comply, that he has to be the puppet instead of the puppeteer and do what someone else is telling him. Like this was supposed to be the great army that he raised. And then he has to stand here and confront the fact that, uh,

did he win their swords or did they pledge them despite him? And it's so clearly in the ladder that it has, it can't feel like the victory that Damon thought he was flying out to seek. And then that gets out to what you were, I thought really smartly identifying on talk to Thrones on Sunday. That just like,

Damon's got to stare down what it means to lead, what it looks like, how you have to spend your time, the compromises that you have to make, the shit you have to eat. Is this the life that Damon Targaryen actually wants to live? Is this how he actually wants to spend his time? And that takes us nicely then into his final moment

We assume and hope his final dream. This is probably it. Last test in the trial. Moldy, moldy. I hope so. Back. What did you make of this, Jo?

again we talked about this on talk of thrones I think I would have really liked this if it had happened inside of last week's episode but to have it here felt a little like I thought we had already sort of graduated from ghost therapy listen you're never really done with therapy even when you think you're done so here you know here he is um

I had someone ask me, like, do I think, you know, if Damon leaves Harrenhal, will he continue to have these visions? These visions which are sort of divisive in the fandom. And I think, like, unless he makes a camp bed out of werewood trees, I don't think that he's going...

To have these visions outside of Heron Hall. But this is the exchange, right? What is this? I never wanted it. I was right not to. All the pain it caused. It crushes whoever wears it. You always wanted it, damn it. Do you want it still?

It's a fascinating question because you've lined up a couple of quotes here, which we've been talking about in terms of the I don't want it conversation with Viserys and Daemon. Because like real Viserys didn't think Daemon wanted it. Right. He says in the pilot, quote, Daemon has ambition. Yes, but not for the throne. He lacks the patience for it. So this isn't real Viserys. Right.

haunting daemon this is daemon's projected viserys or alice's crafted viserys whatever you prefer this dream ghost or the wherewood like conjured viserys but it's not actually what viserys thinks i mean the same way that like i mean we already kind of knew that by alissa being like yeah let's let's have fucking sex to my son which i don't think the real alissa ever would have done so you know

Oh, my favorite darling boy. What a place. What a wild place to spend a season. Oh, man. I love this idea that you're putting out there that David is just going to be like, anytime he sees a werewolf ever again, he's going to be like, um, can we consider relocating? Do we have any other materials on offer? I'm going to be, I'm going to get on my dragon and be on the other side of a mountain from that tree. Thank you so much. Oh, man.

Wild stuff. This episode is brought to you by Experian. I don't know if you've ever looked in your subscriptions on your phone and noticed that you had like four or five subscriptions. Maybe you didn't realize you were still paying for, or maybe you got some email for something and you're like, I thought I canceled that. Well, this is what happens. These days, anyone could be missing out on savings from subscriptions they've totally forgotten about. It's not just the ones you forgot to get rid of. It's the ones that they have better deals.

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All right, Joe, it's my pleasure to tell you it's time to talk about Laris again. Excellent. And Egon, who's going for a little stroll with Orweil, toppling over, shouting, I can't, I can't, oh God, eerily reminiscent of my correspondence to you ahead of every podcast this week.

What would you like to say about this Laris scene? What we are seeing when he enters in terms of what he and Orwyle are discussing seemingly in cahoots in terms of how Laris is working to facilitate Aegon's rehab? Anything else on your mind in this scene? Okay, yeah. They're locking the door. They're like...

It's very much a don't let Aemon know we're trying to get Aegon mobile again, a conspiracy between Orwyle and Larys. Larys tells him that tells poor Aegon who's screaming in pain, Tom Glincarney, our heart goes out to you.

He's like, you'll learn how to move your body. He says, quote, now that you are as you are. And this is the second conversation we've had where Laris has been supportive, encouraging, blah, blah, blah, but just reminding Aegon, you're like me now. You're struggling and you're going to struggle. Your circumstances have changed. Which feels very like...

Gaslight gatekeep girl boss, king of the neg stuff from Laris here. Very Kylo Ren, you're nothing but not to me. You know, that it's just sort of like building a dependency, not dependent not on Milk on the Poppy, but dependent on his guy Laris for understanding and support.

and a really accelerated rehab schedule. I mean, really accelerated. He wants... He spent... Our guy needs some rest. Lyra says... Lyra wants that foot in working order. You know what I mean? Reyna. The Veil. Yeah. Jane Aaron.

Your fave. This could be pretty quick. Reyna, just like, you know, Joff and Tyraxes are staying at the Vale as they're supposed to because Tyraxes is definitely old enough to help defend the Vale. And the Aryan poster children and their eggs and hatchling are headed off to the gay abandon. And Reyna just scurries away.

As if no one will notice. And perhaps no one will notice. And this made me compare in my head. We've been comparing Rhaenyra running off during the hunt to Alicent sort of running off to camp in the woods. And we'll talk about that certainly in the very next scene. But this reminded me, the Rhaena and Rhaenyra connection of like,

Rand is like, who cares? I'm the babysitter. Who cares? No one's here for me. No one will notice I'm gone. I don't have a dragon. Nobody cares about me. They care about those children because they've got eggs and dragons. They care about Joff because he's got a dragon. But who am I? Who cares? So off she goes into the wilderness. Will she murder a boar? Will she go for a bath? Will she see a white stag? Or will she claim a massive wild dragon? Yeah.

Tune in next week. We don't know. Watch this space.

it's definitely not the agreement that Raina and Rhaenyra made when Rhaenyra said, I need you to be the mother to them that I cannot teach them, train them, guard them as a dragon guards her eggs. I don't know that running off, uh, in pursuit of scorch marks is guarding them as a dragon guards her eggs. But, uh, you know, we make our own paths in this world. So that's what Raina is doing. Yeah. Uh,

weird look from Jane Aaron as she closes the gate and just, you know, she meant it when she said she was going to just send like a few, a few dudes from the veil. It's really just astonishing to see that partied depart.

Simply not enough people. Speaking of parties, departing into the woods. Yeah. Should we go camping with the queen? Yeah. So these are, once again, two separate scenes. There's the initial, like, I'm riding my horse and then later I'm going for a dip scene. We're going to talk about them together. So you just mentioned this, like, comp we've been making to Rhaenyra's jaunt. Also, of course, literally in this Kingswood in the third episode of season one. No one's here for me. Riding off, Kristen in pursuit. One...

feeling like she does not have a place in the royal progression and plan, heading off into the Kingswood with one sworn sword, with one member of the Kingsguard, looking for peace, perhaps, but also some sort of newfound purpose. It is impossible for us not to think of Rhaenyra while watching Alicent here. What?

Why do you think you've decided to call Rickard Thorne Rick the Dick? I just think he's really handsome. Okay. Like, I just, I think,

I think he's really handsome. Mallory has written the phrase fingering entrails into our notes here. Oh, dear. Yeah, thank you. I don't know exactly what's going on there by the campfire. I don't know what he's doing. It's weird. It's like he's working a rosary except it's entrails. He's just sort of like smooshing them between his fingers. You get like the rabbit or whatever game ready for dinner by the campfire, sure, but what were we doing with those entrails? That was disturbing. Was he scrying? Like, I really feel like

So one of the props to Martin was like, here's some entrails, go. And he's like, what does one do with entrails? Let's do it. Let's do it. Great question. Joe. Yeah. Back in the season premiere, the series premiere, excuse me, when Rhaenyra landed on Syrax and Alicent was there waiting in the carriage, did you see any of the characters

We heard Alison Hightower say this to kind of introduce us to her character. I believe I'm quite content as a spectator. Thank you. And many moments since then, including right now, Alison is confronting how untrue that is. And of course, right?

This first scene, the riding in on the horse and Rickard asking, when do you mean to return to the city? And Alice is saying, I'm not yet certain I do. And then that second scene, a big bathtub, as we have taken to calling it after Talk of Thrones, where I, you know, it's not which stuff go, but I am pretty excited to say to you, Ophelia Bard stuff.

Go? Hell yeah. What's on your mind in both of these scenes? Priya Rathalites, go. So...

We should note, what color is Allison wearing when she says, I believe I'm quite content as a spectator, thank you? She's wearing this sky blue, which we often saw her in before her rebranding into all green all the time. And she's wearing this beautiful – before she strips down into her multiple layers of white skivvies to go into the big bathtub –

She's wearing this very like the bluest green I think we've seen her wear in a really long time. And this like beautiful velvet sort of cloak that she's wearing. A lot of people, including Chris Ryan, you're truly are quick to point out this like clear Ophelia imagery here.

A lot of people are pointing out this very famous Millais painting of Ophelia in the water, surrounded by flowers in this white dress, already dead painting. I was actually looking at a bunch of waterhouse paintings from around the same time, this Pre-Raphaelite. They loved it.

They loved hot, weird, evil, horny women in water. There's like a big time for that in the pre-Raphaelite movement. I had a book growing out, an art book growing up that was just titled From the Deep. And it was just like hot, horny, evil women in water. And I think it really shaped me as a person. Oh, man. How could it not? But yeah.

But there's like her wonderfully, she's, yeah, she's giving Ophelia in a major way. And like, so on the inside of the episode, Condal and Olivia Cooke both implied that Allison was like thinking about committing suicide. And like, there isn't anything sort of character wise that would have led me immediately there. Yeah.

But the visual Ophelia comps were so strong that, like, you know, if you don't love reading Hamlet, like, Ophelia, a woman who is... a young woman who is broken by all this tragedy that has happened around her, including the death of her father, so she feels all alone, like, absence of her brother, death of her father, all alone in the castle, uh...

goes down into a river and either falls in or probably throws herself into the river and kills herself. And so like, so yeah, this idea of Alicent being so pushed by everything that's happened over the last couple of weeks and this vision of this scar on her arm that she's just like, where's, who needs me? Where's a place for me? I would argue Alicent, Helena still really, really could use you.

she's not doing well is what I would say. But yeah, this is what they say. They say, Allison's disillusioned. She doesn't know that she has a place in the Red Keep or if she did, whether she wants it. And I think at the beginning of it, we're sort of wondering, is Allison out here to end it all? Olivia Cooke says, this moment of peace, that could potentially be the last time for her. But then she sees this hawk flying overhead. And according to Olivia Cooke in interviews, she is re-galvanized with purpose. Yeah.

I confess I do not know what that purpose is, but I'm excited to find out. And where will it lead her? Intriguing. But what would a hawk mean to her? Does it look like a dragon? I don't know. Like, I don't know. I'm curious to find out. Anyway.

Will anyone ever say to Alison of hawks or birds of prey, your obsession with those beasts goes beyond understanding? I wonder. Stay tuned. Oh, man. I thought the score was absolutely gorgeous in the big bathtub sequence. It's very sad. Very, very sad. Olivia Cooke, excruciatingly beautiful woman. And so just watching her wander around sad in the woods, I genuinely could do it for much longer. It was great.

So the mystery was solved when we watched the trailers for the season. We were like, what are these? Yeah, why is she by a lake? Water moments. What is this? You were wondering because... I mean, to take...

listeners behind the curtain because I think we were talking about that in Morton's spoiler section like you were even like is Allison going to Harrenhal because like Harrenhal is on the lake and we were like is this Allison like and why would she be there we don't know like what's going on but no she just she's out for out for a swim thinking of ending it all taking the air in the Kingswood uh

less air to take inside of Dragonstone, you know, see air outside. And Jace did take some earlier when he watched Rhaenyra and Adam fly back, but it didn't seem like it did his mood much good. And so he makes his way into the library to chat with his mom about Team Bastard and lets it rip right away. The lowborn claiming dragons. Was it her idea? Lady Mysaria? So before we get into all of Jace's...

personal insecurities and fears about being a bastard. What did this ping for you? Is this, like, jealousy that Rhaenyra has brought Mysaria into her confidence, like, a position that Jace believes he should occupy, like, chief advisor? Is something else fueling this? Like, what...

This was like a very specific level of Venom directed toward Misaria. Yeah, I feel like Jason needs to watch the seminal film Stepmom starring Susan Sarandon and Julia Roberts and just sort of accelerate his... No. There were a lot of people asking, like, why wasn't there any follow-up between Misaria and Rhaenyra in this week's episode from The Kiss last week? And I would say, I would just go back and say, since...

Emma improvised it. I believe there probably wasn't written to the script. I mean, I'm sure we will get some sort of follow-up on it eventually, but since it was an improvised kiss, it is not strange to me that there isn't scene content about it this week or possibly even next week. Funny how we kissed that one time when I was quite sad and so were you. Yeah, Jace's Lady Missaria dripping with disdain. I do. I think it is more to do with

There's just been a couple times that he's approached her and been like, you and me, we're a team, right? Team us. You know, the monarch in the air. Here we go. But he made a big mistake last week, unintentionally, by saying, like, we need Damon. She's just like...

You know, as we pointed out, like, he said things, as you pointed out, he said things about, like, you know, his mother, you know, was his monarch. Like, he would not have it any other way. All this sort of stuff. This bid for, like, I'm on your team. But also, we need Damon. And she's like, that's not the energy I'm looking for. Right. Oh, man.

So Rhaenyra kind of calls out his hypocrisy here. She's like, you liked this plan well enough when it was Ser Steffan. Also, this was your idea. And to Jace, of course, this is quite different. This is a progression outside of his idea into a territory that he is not comfortable occupying. These people are, he says, Rhaenyra says, courageous. And he replies, mongrels, which is...

extremely tough and brutal and not the kind of thing that we expect to hear from our beloved diplomat, Jazaris Salarian. Yikes! It's a very rough moment for Jace. Yikes! We talked about this on Sunday, but notably in Fire and Blood, this whole idea, including the bastard face of it, is presented as being

So this is a consequential update in our understanding of what transpired. It was to them that Prince Juseras turned at the urging of his fool, vowing that any man who could master a dragon would be granted lands and riches and dubbed a knight. His sons would be ennobled, his daughters wed to lords, and he himself would have the honor of fighting beside the Prince of Dragonstone against the pretender Aegon II Targaryen and his treasonous vassals.

So this is quite a different presentation of Jace's state, but it is one that we really are responding to powerfully and feel is quite in line with Jace's arc. And we sort of get this presentation of his concerns in both the micro and macro, the specific hyper-personal level and then the more blanket level. So let's start with maybe the macro first. What does it mean for House Targaryen? Okay.

How Sargerian is the blood of the dragon? He says, if any man may lay claim to it, what are we then? Now, Joe, this is an idea and question that we've been discussing now for a few weeks, right? The Maile's procession. I don't know if you want to do your impression again. I thought the dragons was gods. I thought the dragons was gods. There we go. Any chance I think you should rip that out. Not the last Cockney hate crime I will commit on this episode. Okay. Hmm.

Oh, so we kind of outlined that idea of Targaryen exceptionalism. They're just meat. Do you think Hugh still thinks they're just meat now that he gets to ride one? I'm relieved after that comment that Hugh is out of King's Landing and nowhere near Maile's head. Genuinely relieved. Or any cute little dog you might see in the street. Genuinely relieved. But like, this is a question worth asking. Genuinely. We have notes for Jace in the scene, certainly, but this is a question worth asking, right? Like,

Rhaenyra said to Viserys in the series premiere, everyone says Targaryens are closer to gods than to man, but they say that because of our dragons. Without them, we're just like everyone else. If everyone else also has dragons, you're also just like everyone else. Yeah, Targaryens are just like us, except with more incest.

I love that you're on incest watch here. I really love this. Well, I just think it's so funny because they're like, guys, we have to. It's not like we want to fuck our sisters. It's just we have to keep our blood pure. We have to keep our hair blonde. We have to keep our eyes purple. It's very important to us. The church has to give us an exception. And now we're like, oh, that was just a lie so that you could fucking marry your own sibling. Cool.

Oh, man. You know, the seeds are still relatives. So there's that. But diluted. True. That being said, I mean, we don't know Adam's heritage exactly. But, you know, the fact that Hugh and Ulf are established is only like once removed from the core royal family is interesting.

Jace is the one who said in the fifth episode that the history is a propaganda. He said when Rhaenyra was like, a dragon will only accept a dragon lord to ride it, or so say the histories. Valyrian history is written to gild us in glory. But opening this up to team bastards, raise an army of bastards, it pokes at his fear in a way that changes his perspective. This can't just be about propaganda now. So you mentioned the silver hair. Well, let's talk about dark hair. Steve, can we hear this exchange? And when you die? You are my heir.

Oh!

Okay, Mongrels, no, we don't like it, but this is heart-wrenching, Jo. I love this. I mean, the Mongrels is so fucking tough, but also it's coming from, like, a place of self-hatred, right? Like, these are the things that have been said about him to him. And the fact that, like,

So we've seen Jace grapple with the truth of his parentage, you know, throughout. Yes. This is the first we've seen of him being like angry at Rhaenyra about the position that it put him in. And it's just, Emma, in one of the interviews that I read, I think it was the one with the rap was talking about how Rhaenyra just like sees things and impulsively takes them. You know, I suppose you could say that about what happened with Miss Aria last week. Yeah.

But this idea, it's the first time. I've been so defensive of the Rhaenyra Harwin relationship because I was like, who is it actually hurting?

And if we lived in a utopia, it wasn't hurting anyone, right? These were two consenting adults who wanted to have sex with each other, built a family together. They loved each other. They made a narration for Lenore to be happy. They were all blended, you know, modern. This is the future the liberals want, family together. And I've heard people – when people who are like –

Rhaenyra, who are Team Green, not Kris, but other people who are Team Green, and our main argument I hear against Rhaenyra is like, she had these children. And I'm like, so the fuck what? Which is how I still feel about it. But this is the first time that I really felt like her impulsivity and all of that really hurt these kids, you know, at the end of the day. Like,

Allison's the real villain or all the people who are making it an issue are the real villains here. But like Rhaenyra going for what she wanted. Right. Damn the consequences created a dangerous world for Jace, for Joff, for Luke. And like, I don't, I don't think it should matter if someone who's half strong is on the throne. Yeah.

But that is the world that these boys were born into. And because Rhaenyra did not think everything through. And so I just really felt for Jason this. I just really, really did. I don't love the classism that's on display here, but all of it is coming from this like

really, you know, this idea that he, which we talked about in Talk of the Thrones, which we talked about before with Jace, is like the idea that he claimed a dragon is his like biggest justification that he should be allowed to be here, that he should be treated not as a mongrel. So the fact that he's trying to like shut the door on other people is disheartening, but it is very human and very realistic. And like the way that Rhaenyra responds here,

This was an interview with a rap from Emma Darcy that I just really loved this answer about how Rhaenyra is treating Jace in this scenario. Emma says, quote, Jace has every reason to feel deeply compromised by his mother's choice. Ultimately, she will choose herself really above anyone.

And here she chooses herself and her divine right over her son and her son's legitimacy. I don't think it's an easy decision. We've seen Rhaenyra over years fight vehemently for the legitimacy of her children. We've seen her fight petitions. We've seen her stake all of her reputation protecting those boys. But in this case, she feels she's received divine permission. Jace says, and Harry Collette plays it so beautifully in the episode—

all these issues with how I look are silenced by the fact that I'm a dragon rider and you are willing to give that license that I own away. And he's right that she doesn't shut down his argument, which I feel, and he's right. And she doesn't shut down his argument, which I feel is the only respect she can show him. Right. So Rhaenyra knows he's right and is going to do it anyway. And yeah, it's a real test of,

Our fondness for Rhaenyra, there's a lot of things in this episode that are a real test for our fondness of Rhaenyra, to say the least. But we've constantly been like, well, Alyson's so cold towards her children. Rhaenyra's so warm and loving towards her children. But like, Joff, who's their last kid, who's at home, Bela is also there. But Bela and Jace, sorry, Jace and Bela being the last kids at home here, like...

You already remarked about her sending Bela off on, like, guard duty and, like, not really, you know, being exactly sort of motherly towards her. And then this idea that, like, I hear you. I'm going to do it anyway. You're right. I'm going to do it anyway. And it's like, you know, Rhaenyra's warmth as a mother is...

is not the only thing I've liked about her. There's a lot that I like about her, but it is something that I've really liked about her. And it's tough to see. It's really tough to see. Yeah. I love this scene because there's so much moral complexity at play for both of the characters. It's that gray space we love to inhabit where you can understand what is driving even the worst tendency, but also you want the characters to make a different choice. You wish they were making a different choice. And when Jace is saying...

If one of your baseboards silver hair and emphasizing silver haired, right? Dragon riders decides he wants to rule the seven kingdoms. Like did the conqueror's dream foretell that? And like feeling this like threat to his birthright. It made me think so powerfully of one of my like genuinely favorite passages from fire and blood where, um,

We are just reminded, and I think such a beautiful and heart-wrenching way, that this has hung over Jace from the moment he was born. Like, through, as I think you're really right to call it, no fault of his own. This is just a thing he had to face from the second he existed and drew breath. By royal decree, each of the Velaryon boys was presented with a dragon's egg whilst in the cradle. Those who doubted the paternity of Rhaenyra's sons whispered that the eggs would never hatch.

But the birth and turn of three young dragons gave the lie to their words. The hatchlings were named Vermax, Aerax, and Tyraxes. And Septim Eustace tells us that his grace sat Jace upon his knee atop the Iron Throne as he was holding court and was heard to say, one day this will be your seat.

And like we shit on Viserys and his legacy a lot. And we, I think are often right to do so. But a moment like that, that reminds you that Viserys was like, I love you and you're my grandson. And none of the things that other people whisper about you matter. Like this is going to be yours one day. It's just so beautiful. And then we think about like, what did Jace hear from the people in his life who were closest to him as he was growing up? And we've talked about the moments in the sixth and seventh episodes of season one, where he and Rhaenyra briefly like,

where Harwin is an active conversation topic. And then I think now, after this conversation, we kind of have to like,

or at least wonder, have they never talked about it since? Like that was like not a, okay, only a private don't let other people hear you, but we can talk about this like giant question and this like shame and this doubt and this pain, this grief that you're carrying. Or like when he said the, or when she said like the Valarians are our kin and the Strongs are not, look at me, do you understand? Was that shutting down this young boy's like,

pathway to broaching this giant thing with his own mother. Like that, I found that very hard not to like wonder about too then. Part of that's true, but the other part is like the very real act of danger. Yes, there's protection. Every time you say this out loud, it's a risk. It's dangerous. Absolutely. A couple of things about Rhaenyra I want to note in this scene. When that passage that we heard, that exchange we heard,

When he says, and when you die, and she says, you are my heir. It's just so frustrating to watch Rhaenyra say that, knowing that that's what Viserys said. You know what I mean? Like, she knows how flimsy that is. She's living in how flimsy that is. And it's just like so tough for her. And then also to contrast these two scenes.

To contrast it to earlier when they were talking about this dragon seed idea back when it was like, you know, and it's Jace's idea to a certain degree. And there's that warmth. There's that like moment from Harry Collette that got meme-ified when he's just like smiling and holding his hands up. And he's like, well, bastards, I'm one. Come on. And like when he says mongrel, which is so tough to hear, and Rhaenyra gives him this look like,

What are you talking? Like, who are you? Right? You know who you are, right? Why would you say that? So just the sour mirror image of those two scenes. And again, like, Jace is just so pleased. And Harry Collette did such a good job with that in that earlier scene.

I'm your partner. I'm your heir. I have an idea. Let's do our idea. And I was so sad. I completely understand. But I'm so sad that he didn't show up for the sewing. That Bale is there and Adam's there, but Jace isn't there. And especially when it was like Jace who like pulled her away when Stefan Darklin like, you know, caught on fire. Like that was just a...

a mommy son project burning someone together. That's something that they did together. And like the fact that like he's not there is so sad. Totally. Really sad. You just feel this, like this, this yet another like breach, another rift inside of a faction. Very sad. And like, yeah, I, my, my heart broke with like, then, then the don't pursue it.

And she's just like, the gods, though. Can't gain say that which the gods have laid before me. Like, my son, you're in pain. You're asking this of me. And like, this other thing matters more. It's brutal. Very intense scene. Great scene. Montage time? I love a montage. It's time to call the dragon seeds.

We get to follow this message from Massaria to Alinda, and then we watch Alinda fucking go to work. I have to say, I was actually, like, alarmed when in the Ulf pub scene, they're just like, no, yeah, like, the queen's, like, personal handmaiden is here spreading the word. I'm like, I don't know that this many people should know that Alinda is responsible for this. That's alarming. But it was cool to watch her, like, in action, passing along the whispers, like,

sparking this recruitment and we get that kind of like general snapshot of it before we get then the specific calling of both calling of you would you if you were linda would your cloak of choice be bright red if you were constantly scoring upstairs and down back alleyways on secret missions

Oh, God. It's great. Another great note to pass along to our characters. Yeah. Keep your murder slash montage cloaks black so that you blend in. She also has a Massey sigil on her dress. I don't know. It's just like this is something we learned from a man. We hoped we had learned from Laris and his agents last season, which is like, don't wear a sigil if you're going to do some crime.

Great stuff. Great stuff. You know, this is the limit of all the characters just like wearing house sigils and colors like all the time though. Joe, your guy Ulf. Tom. Receives word. Oh my God. They're heading to the boats at the hour of the bat. Take me through this scene. And Ulf's response. Wonderful stuff. he's with his guys. Yeah. His bros.

I'm so curious what their future relationship is going to be like. Like, is he going to be like, is he going to find that you can't go home again? Like, you can't go back to the pub now that you've got a dragon? Or does he like draft them? Do they become his like new hangers on or something like that? I don't know. I want to believe that pubs are eternal. Pubs and drinking mates are eternal. He like flew back over the pub and he's like, look at my Lambo, guys. I'm living large. Anyway.

Before all that, he has this great iconic... Well, that's a shame because I'd be first in line if it wasn't for my injury because my leg hasn't been the same since and they cut him off. Incredible. It just killed me. Incredible stuff from Ulf. Tom talked about all of this. It's really good. But...

You know, they're like, let's go. You got to do this. You've been talking, you know, big game as long as we've known. You got to go. You have to go also. Fuck Aemond, right? Like, you want a little more stew meat in your bowl? Go to Dragonstone. And then Ulf says, I can't be sure it's all true.

which was so good in contrast like Hugh knowing Hugh knew his mom yeah again I asked how about this he he talked about it to the extent that he could there's an implication in the conversation that there's like things he knows that he can't talk about but like um I just I really loved all of this um

We should just remind Alistair at home that Ulf previously threw in for Rhaenyra, right? When we first met him. Right.

In his very first, well, his second, you know, after he did like, what they do. That's my second, but not last, Cockney hate crime. Oh, my God. When he walked into the inn, right? And he's like, he's talking to this guy from Dorne and he says, quote, uncle to the one true queen, Rhaenyra Targaryen.

And he says, I'll tell you who else doesn't have silver hair. The rightful heir to the Iron Throne, my nephew, Prince Jaseris Velaryon. Right? So he like threw him with them and then Aegon walked in and he's like, hail to the king. Tough stuff. Anyway, we'll hear more about Ulf from Tom himself. What do you want to say about Hugh Hammer? Hugh Hammer. Hard Hugh. So, uh,

let's just build right off what you were just sharing about Ulf. And okay, what previously stated stance on the ruling parties do we have from Hugh? Well, of course, in the first episode of this season, we saw him making the pitch to Aegon in the throne room for coin because he was working as a smith for Team Green and said the smiths are all proud to support your grace against Rhaenyra.

In general, I think that accepting people who had said either or both of those things is like a very J. Harris kind of thing for Rhaenyra to do. Right. Team of rivals. Yeah. You're just going to keep warring if you don't build bridges. My note remains, as we discussed many times on Sunday night,

Any vetting of the 45 seeds, any questions from any of them about what they believe or who they've aligned with or anything at all? No. On the boat on the way over, a quick Q&A. You know? Yeah, some forms to fill out. A little would you rather. You know, something to test the waters. We love a would you rather here at the House of R. So Hugh, not drinking with his pals, home with Kat. They're mourning their kid who died off screen. I'm sorry, thing. I am a monster.

We spent a fair bit of time with this increasingly corpse-like dying child and then was just like cast off between episodes. Tough stuff there. But it kind of, it does. Dave Gonzalez texted me about this and he was like, I feel like that child only existed because they were worried audiences wouldn't feel sad enough about just adults starving. He's like, which I feel like is sad enough.

Yes, that's like, wow. Dave coming through is always there with a sterling observation. It does make us think, though, like, would Hugh have always felt

moved to answer a call like this you know we hear him say which we'll get to this quote momentarily like i i you know i wanted to make my way with my own hands or is it just simply a matter of the circumstance there's no food there's no money my kid died and i couldn't save her like i need something else that you know it heightens our question of like what pushed you maybe to uh answer the call for the sewing and he reveals his his parentage to cat and to us here's what he says

Normal way to talk about your mother. Yeah.

She used to tell me I was no different to her brother's boys, Viserys and Daemon. This was literally of all the things that happened in this episode. This is the first thing we texted about. It is. After we saw it. Like, holy fuck, is Hugh Hammer Sarah Targaryen's son? I think the answer is yes. The actor confirmed it in an interview. So it is a yes. Okay, so let's tell everybody who Sarah Targaryen is. Sarah Targ is.

Uh, so Balon, who is Viserys and Daemon's father, this is their, his sister, a sister also to their mother. Also just stop me if you've heard of it before. Um, yeah. So this is aunt Sarah, Viserys and Daemon's aunt Sarah Targaryen. Uh,

Defiant prankster is a fun way that you've described her in our notes here. Her very first word was no. Yeah, I think defiant, I think, is the word that I was like bringing up when we were talking about her on Talk the Thrones.

But she was disowned by Harris, much to Alisaine's chagrin after a sex scandal involving who? A Beesbury, by the way. Yeah. A different Beesbury, but a Beesbury who was teaching the ladies how to fuck in King's Landing. Beehive. Yes, the Beehive. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

She tried to steal a dragon to escape, sent to the Faith, fled to Essos, took up work at a pleasure house in Lys, opened her own pleasure house in Volantis, and fathered three bastards who pushed their claims of the Great Council of 101 AC. We want to read that bit in a second about those bastards, Sarah's boys, who showed up to the Great Council. But I did want to hit this email from our listener, Sam, that I really love. Because, you know, to your point about, like,

So Sarah is like slut shamed by her father, told she can't have a dragon, kicked out of the family, sent off to like a monastery essentially, and then just like fucks off to be a sex worker and a madam for the rest of her life. And so Sam wrote, it's truly poetic and masterful touch of adaptation for the bastard son of a disowned daughter to claim his grandfather's dragon. Yeah.

that kind of choice feels especially like something george would craft a daughter quote unquote dishonors herself but is in turn treated with cruelty and a distinct lack of mercy by her royal father pushing her away from her family and the life she'd known pushing her to siring a bastard a bastard who grows up in a broken family a bastard who tries his hand in an honest life and is an especially cruel just a fate loses a daughter of his own and then that

rage that anguish that sense of loneliness reaches back generations to claim a symbol of power robbed from him you can see all the wonderful ways this experience will shape his sense of self-worth and do i loved that from sam um but yeah this i mean it's just chef's kiss perfect uh so good there are some differences uh with sarah which we can talk about if you want but do you want to read this fire and blood passage about the the great council

Sure, yeah. So the three bastards, Hugh, not one of the three in question here, but the three who came forward to make their claims. From Essos came three rival competitors, grandsons of King Jaehaerys through his daughter, Sarah, each sired by a different father. Sarah. One was said to be the very...

image of his grandsire in his youth. Another, a bastard born to a triarch of old Volantis, arrived with bags of gold and a dwarf elephant. Amazing how often elephants come up in the world of Ice and Fire. The lavish gifts he distributed amongst the poorer lords undoubtedly helped his claim. The elephant proved less useful. Ha ha ha!

Princess Sarah herself was still alive and well in Volantis and only 34 years of age. Her own claim was clearly superior to those of any of her bastard sons, but she did not choose to press it. I have my own kingdom here, she said when asked if she meant to return to Westeros. So that's just like a great little insight into how Sarah...

thinks and behaves, right? But also this idea that, like, we're bastards, we're in the world, they made this push, like, that's, like, historical Great Council canon record, and now we're like, oh, Hugh! Another Sarah bastard who we didn't know about! What an incredible little touch, and I love that email from Sam and thinking of him claiming, like, his...

Grand Sire's dragon and just like a symbol of power they're so different dispositionally like J. Harris and Hugh and that gets back to everything we discussed at the top of like

what is a dragon seeking at a given moment in time? Like, it's just, it's so rich. I really, really like this choice. I've seen people latch onto this line that you read. One was said to be the very image of his grandsire in his youth. Now, again, we're talking about other boys, but if Sarah has a son in Hugh who is like the very, you know, we met J. Harris when he was like

quite wispy and crusty uh in the great council scene but like we can imagine that in his youth he looked much like Hugh Hammer and so this idea that Vermithor is like oh I know you you look familiar um

is fascinating to me. The hang-up here is that you might have heard us, we said Lise, we said Volantis, blah, blah, blah. Like, Sarah set up shop in Essos. There's no mention of Hugh here talking about, like, I grew up in Essos and I came back or anything like that. So, like, that was the one thing that I was slightly hung up on when you and I were texting, like, is this Sarah? Because I was like...

The way he describes it to Kat here, the implication to me is like, I was born and raised here in Flea Bottom. But I guess that's me just sort of like, yeah. Anyway, point being, maybe they'll mention it later. But if they're going by book canon, Hugh grew up in Essos and had to actively decide then. That's an interesting character choice. Similar to when we were talking about Adam and Alan growing up in the shadow of Driftmark. Yeah.

It is an active choice to leave Essos and come back to King's Landing and, like, find his way into the throne room to be, like, petitioning Aegon for money, hat in hand, this, like...

his family member. You know what I mean? So this is like an active character decision that seems sort of in contrast to this idea of like, I was determined to make something for myself. Would you choose then to go to King's Landing to make that life for yourself? Which is why, like, I kind of think that in show canon, the implication is like maybe Sarah set up shop a little closer to home. But...

I think Harris would have had some notes on that. He certainly would have. He has this interesting little wrinkle. He certainly would have. You mentioned Kat. Yeah. So when part of his pitch to her is, we'll have a better life if I can claim a dragon. You'll be a lady. And she says, I do not care to be a lady, Hugh, and neither do I want to be a widow. Another good line from Kat. What?

What is your read on that then? Because he decides to go. Like, we see him go. You and Chris felt like this was it for Kat and Hugh. And certainly, like, certainly I can understand that. Like, the guy who stands in front of the dragon and goes, come on! Like, that guy, like, lost his daughter, lost his wife, lost everything. I'm ready to die if I need to.

So, you know, I'm slightly inclined to agree with you guys. That's not how I read it when I first read it. It was just sort of like another thing that...

We got an interesting email from a listener, Chris, that I'm not going to read out. But Chris is talking about the inherent contradiction of Hugh Hammer, who is a guy whose sort of demeanor is, I will do anything for my family. But, you know, like I'll punch a guy out and steal a bag of groceries. I'm just doing it because I want to provide for my family. But Kat keeps explicitly telling him what she wants. And he's like, no. Our neighbors are stealing from each other. How horrible. Can we go to Tumulton, please? Yeah.

You know? Cat. So, yeah. Also, when I watched them all walk down to the ships and then get on the ships and disembark from the ships, a Dragonstone, I was reminded of the Grecian myth of Theseus, wherein at nine-year intervals, seven Athenian boys and seven Athenian girls were sent to Crete to be devoured by the Minotaur. Theseus makes it out, comes back, oops, forgets to change the sails on his boat and is...

grandfather commits suicide but anyway the point is this idea of like uh you know a a group of you know uh sacrifices essentially you know headed off yeah somewhere uh and this idea of someone of royal birth in among them theseus in among the you know the athenian boys and girls who were sent off to be devoured by the minotaur so the minotaur we got a dragon

But here we go. To the sacrifice point, I mean, we're about to talk about the red sewing, but Condal and Inside the Up described it as a quote, ritual sacrifice. So that is a very, very fair comp. Quickly, before we get to the dragon keepers quitting, this is a lot of people going to the boat and leaving.

whisper of this reaches Eamon. So the question is, did nobody know this happened? Which would be astonishing. Or is this another thing that they chose not to pass along? Or are they withholding? Yeah. Yeah.

Our listener Jeremy wrote an email where he says, has the spider web become a neglected cobweb? And I think in that email, if it was either him or it was one of our other listeners, compared it to the march of people from Edoras to Helm's Deep. Like, it was just like a long line of people, you know, and it's just sort of like... Yeah, and it's like... Oh, man. How could...

none of Laris' agents gotten back to him on this. It seems impossible. So, it feels like Laris knows something about what's going on here and is choosing to keep that information to himself. Yeah. Yeah. With love and respect to Alinda Spycraft...

I just do not think she, like, she's running all around town. Everywhere. Like, there's no way Laris didn't hear about this. Yeah. He must know. It seems impossible that he wouldn't. Yeah.

Dragon Keepers quitting. This was kind of a shocking scene because the Dragon Keepers in the show are so different from the Dragon Keepers in the book and have this much more like true believer monk-like aspect to their order. You want to run us through a little snapshot of how this order came to be in the canon and the differences between the presentation in the book and the show? And then let's talk about what we hear from a Dragon Keeper to Rhaenyra.

Yeah, I mean, so in the books, this is an order that is created, you know, by Jaehaerys, who we keep bringing up, writer of Fermathor. And there's 77 of them at all times. Condal in his...

props podcast that I was listening to where he was talking about the Dragon Keepers. He compared them to the Swiss Guard. He's like, there's only ever 77 of them. If one dies, another one gets promoted in. But one in, one out is sort of the Dragon Keepers idea. They did not have the budget in season one of House of the Dragon to come up with a whole other... They were armoring gold cloaks and they were doing this and that thing and they could not come up with cool armor for all the Dragon Keepers. So they decided to make them...

Condal decided the show to make them more of like a monastic, almost religious sect, ran it by George. George is like, that sounds great. I love it. So like a bunch of the prop stuff, this is why they were talking about the props podcast, but the props stuff they came up with, like including like the, like the long sticks that they use or the like ovens that they use to transport the eggs. These were all things that they thought about in terms of like, um,

It's not in the book, so what are all the trappings of this order? It was a great podcast interview with the props master on House of the Dragon. But...

So it really fundamentally changes. These aren't just like swords for hire. Right. And the dragon keepers of old, they crop up in A Song of Ice and Fire. Their armor crops up in A Song of Ice and Fire a couple different times. It's sort of like the dragon skulls that are hanging around. That dragon keeper armor is sort of hanging around when we get to Tyrion's time in the Red Keep and stuff like that. So instead of...

swords for hire we're getting religious people with a title valeria who feel like they have more of a right of understanding of the dragons which is you know this is their entire life that we see them like teaching and training the royal kids on how to interact with the dragons uh they speak valerian there's this idea i can't remember if coddle said this is something that he came up with i think it was

That they have, that there's an elder and an acolyte, essentially. There's always two. Rule of two. Rule of two of the dragon keepers. And that the elder, when you become an elder, you give up speaking the common tongue entirely and you only speak in Valyrian. The acolyte is bilingual. But like you, it's like a thing you give up, right? Like you just decide you're only going to speak in Valyrian now. So what this dragon, this lead dragon keeper, who, by the way, had to, you know, they watched one of their own.

go up in flames and slit his own throat, uh, in last week's episode. Right. Yep. Um, he says to her in high Valerian, which I guess is all he speaks these days, uh, that what she's doing is a quote, an abomination. And that quote, the judgment was delivered after Stefan quote, it was blasphemy. He was no dragon Lord, neither of these. Um,

And then Rhaenyra says, and yet the gods have sent them before us. And then he says, you have sent them before yourself. The dragons are sacred. They are the last magic of old Valyria in the sad world. They're not playthings for the games of men. Our order will take no part in this.

Dragon Keeper's out. But this idea that like Rhaenyra says it's just the gods have sent them before you have set them before yourself. Your hubris is out of control lady. Um

That was an amazing, amazing line and an amazing moment and an amazing and important challenge. Yeah. I think it's rich and interesting for the characters who are kind of part of the reason that we have to say a dragon is not a slave to be like, they're not playing things for the

games of men and they're still interrogating maybe if they're of their own to do there but um that that active challenge to Rhaenyra is like my mission has been ordained a sense of righteousness here was felt very important to hear and then like as we continue to talk about like signs and portents portents and signs like the dragon keepers walking out on you not only is there like the practical aspect to like you got to do this on your own now that would be

To some, certainly be like a harbinger, undeniably. Put the brakes on. The weird old... No brakes. The dragon cult doesn't want this. No brakes. Pedal to the metal.

Gas time. Let's go. Rhaenyra addresses the seeds and she moves to speak to the assembled. And we hear the quote that opened the episode today, you know, saying like, here's the evolution of what I thought I knew about claiming a dragon. And when she moves like further into the crowd, Sir Laurent like follows her right on her heels and she kind of looks him off.

And we talked about this on Talk to Thrones. We've gotten some further insights from Condal and co. on their read on this. Huge insights, I think. Yeah. So are you still thinking of Daemon as a comp in addition to... No. Not anymore. I'm not. Why not both? Why not all of them? Oh, my God. You were so right to challenge me on that comp as you did on Talk to Thrones, right? Because what Condal says...

is that this is like similar to the smooch with Massaria, that this was actually Emma's pitch for Rhaenyra to go and walk amongst the seeds as though a pastor amongst her flock in terms of religious cults. It's not at all troubling to hear. The comp you made was to Daenerys and Mesa, which I think is now, I think is a much better comp than Daemon. But like...

As we said, there's no vetting here. And it's just... It's a wild moment. We're going to talk about culty stuff soon when we talk about blood sacrifices. But like...

Yeah. She says, quote, our purpose is to end the hardships infecting the realm. The enemy will have no choice but to bend that they can end the suffering without bloodshed, God's willing. I just can't believe, like, there's no way Rhaenyra thinks there is a single chance that Aemon says, I don't know.

I think she... You added to the roster, here's the throne. I do not think Rhaenyra believes that. And so this all feels like, again, the kind of like...

I think she thinks... The way that that manifestation of belief, like the walking into the crowd, I'm the chosen one, nothing can harm me. I'm untouchable, yeah. Right, yeah. But like, a belief in an outcome here that does not feel possible. And like, without bloodshed. I really do believe, I'm not prepared to tilt Rhaenyra into full-on Jonestown-ish.

Yet, but like... You said she's handing out Kool-Aid. But I think that like, I think she believes that the war will ultimately be less bloody. And this is what Emma said in one of the interviews, right? So without bloodshed is a complete bullshit line.

less bloodshed is what Rhaenyra genuinely believes. And that also the realm will, she is the promised one. So the realm will be better off and better protected if she's got her ass on the throne. Right. We've got to unite the realm so that we're ready for the great, the great war and the great threat that awaits. Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. Rhaenyra calls Vermithor. This was chilling. Can we hear it? The dragon named Vermithor

is the largest in the world after vega and perhaps the most fierce he's called the bronze fury we'll go to him now and may the gods bless you should we you want to share some vermithor quick facts with uh the bad babies before we talk about what unfolds here at the the red sewing bronze fury

How much did you enjoy the saliva just dripping from his teeth? I adored it. I loved everything about this. As we've mentioned already, this is Jaehaerys' dragon that now belongs to his grandson, the son of his daughter who he disowned. Cool stuff. And as you mentioned, Vermithor was born from an egg to Jaehaerys, right? Right. So he's nearly 100 years old. Super old dragon.

But he uses a deterrent throughout Jaehaerys' reign. We mentioned this on Talk of Thrones, but we both love this scene from Fire and Blood where Jaehaerys is treating with a Baratheon lord, Rogar, right? And Vermithor is just snacking on a bowl, maybe multiple bowls, but at least one bowl. And Jaehaerys goes, quote, he grows larger every day, Jaehaerys said, as he scratched the great worm under his jaw. Yeah.

Keep your nieces and your nephews, my lord. Why would I need hostages? I have your word that is all I require. But Grand Maester Benefer, shout out Benefer, heard the words Jaehaerys did not speak. Quote, every man and maid and child in the Stormlands is my hostage whilst I ride him. His grace said without actually saying, wrote Benefer, and Lord Rogar heard him plain.

So good. I just, I love all of the glimpses we get of how Vermithor is, uh,

presented to the kingdom, either in like a specific, subtle show of power like that, or just the fact that the, like the way Jaharis and Alisane always remind the realm that they have dragons, he and his queen meant to see the land they ruled, to learn its needs firsthand, to meet his Lords and take their measure, to let themselves be seen by the small folk and to hear their griefs in turn. But wherever they went, it would be with their power.

This is just like you can't tell the history of Jaehaerys and Alysanne without Vermithor and Silverwing. Like these two dragons entering the story, it's just massive. And of course, like riderless since Jaehaerys' death. Silverwing similarly riderless since Alysanne's death. So they'd only each had one prior rider, Hugh and Ulf, which is the second riders for each of them.

Vermithor comes into the screen, Jo. It's so good. It's so good. Emerging from the shadows. Like, was this your favorite shot of the season so far? Yes. It was incredible. Like, not just shot. I mean, I would say sequence. Because just like, again, the sound design, the score. Something I've talked to Paula about before, which I think is so interesting, is this idea of like,

When she designs the dragon noises, sometimes she has to battle for it. Are we going to hear the music or are we going to hear the noise of the dragon? This is a constant sort of like back and forth between the dragon noise and the score. And so the specific sound design choices made here are just incredible because we're hearing a lot of

We'll get a really sick score moment later from Ramin Djawadi, but this is largely the noise of the dragon is the music of the scene. And it's so good. It's like a crank. Yes. Oh, God. Ratcheting up the fear and the tension as Vermithor creeps into view out of the shadows. And just sort of comes above her. And so like...

So, like, everything to do with Vermithor, the saliva on the teeth, it could almost, like, smell him. Like, just, like, incredible. And then Emma's performance against pixels. You know what I mean? Against not a tennis ball. They use those, like, blue dragon heads. But, like, you know what I mean? It's just, like.

It's just astonishing. And she says, Rhaenyra says, be calm, Vermithor. Be calm, serve, right? Yes. So this is what Emma says about the moment that Rhaenyra touches Vermithor.

Emma said to the wrap,

this decision and so like we so this is what we mean when we say go back and rewatch that Adam scene on the beach when she's like and I'm you did what I thought was impossible and I'm glad of it you know what I mean and we're like oh that's so nice but watching her here as she touches Vermithor you're like oh no

That nod. Yeah. Of like, this is right. That look of certainty. Yeah, this is right. This is right. This belongs to me. Absolutely chilling. Absolutely chilling. That shot then of Vermithor, like of Rhaenyra right in front of Vermithor's face and the mirror to the poster from season one, young Rhaenyra with Syrax behind, just unbelievably incredible. She's such a dangerous mix of...

Damon's bold, daring do. We saw Damon sing to Vermithor last season. And Viserys' belief in prophecy. It's such a dangerous combination inside of one person. Yes. What is the power of a dragon against the power of prophecy, Viserys said. And Rhaenyra's kind of like, why not both? Why not both? Right?

Why not both? Why one or the other? Oh, man. The sowing of the seeds. Munkin names the triumphs and tragedies that ensued, crediting the notion to Jusaris himself, not Mushroom. Others preferred the red sowing. So let's watch. Let's talk about this as we watch the sowing of the seeds become the red sowing. First up, Joe, Silver Dennis. Silver Dennis. And Rhaenyra says, I have nothing more to tell you. It must be the dragon who speaks. Bounces to go watch from the balcony.

Harrowing. Tough. Really fucking tough. You called out on Talk of Thrones like the guards moving. Yes. Into place.

Again, it felt voluntary until you walk out on that... What do they keep calling it in the house? A gantry. I guess that's a thing. They've said it multiple times. Like, new word for me. Cool. The gantry that they walk out on. You know, once you walk out there, you have agreed to something. Whether or not you signed a release form, you've agreed to something. And the guards fall in behind them. The look on Rhaenyra's face...

as this slaughter is playing out, like this felt like the, we talk a lot about the worth the price moments in the show, like Otto talking about Eamon claiming Vhagar or Helena asking Eamon, was it worth the price? And like, this felt like for Nira's, is it worth the price moment? And we can see like running the calculus of,

this was not just a possible outcome. This was a probable one. She had seen Stefan burn. And the fact that the plan works means that she was right to do it right in terms of just the pure cold math of the outcome of trying to strengthen your side. Right. But she let Stefan,

dozens and dozens of seeds burn without hesitation. There was a hesitation about what it meant to use bastards, but not a hesitation about leading them to the slaughter. And that is a harrowing thing to confront. I've heard some people say, like, there's no way she could have known. She couldn't have known precisely how it all... But if, like, if you're like, oh my God, she never thought it would play out this way, then why would she set her guards at the back of the gantry? Again, the gantry, a word that I know and use often. But, like,

She set her guards there. Like, I don't know what else to tell you. She locked the doors. A lot of people have been like, oh, the red sewing, the red wedding, like, what's the comp there or whatever. I mean, like, she locked the doors on them the way that they locked the doors in the red wedding. I love this idea, this...

Like, this thing goes from something that we were cheering for to something that we were horrified by so quickly. Yes. So good. And that ritual sacrifice, like, religious cult and ritual sacrifice, both being things that Connell says about this episode, really flavors our reading of this whole thing, right? And, like...

Again, so Emma to British GQ in that moment to asking about that moment that where Rhaenyra is up on her little like viewing post watching everyone. And we'll see her again later when Hugh claims Vermithor. She's just there in the shot. It's wild. But she says to British GQ, quote, I think she feels like a god. I think she feels super proud. I mean, I think it's uncomfortable. Yeah.

There's something actually also that ties into the religiosity, even being back in proximity to dragons, to that fire. Is to somehow be living her birthright, to be soaking up the divine somehow. Is this not the – so I ask you, Mallory, is this not the embodiment of I will take what is mine with fire and blood and this idea of ritual sacrifice? Like can I talk about blood sacrifices in A Song of Ice and Fire for a second? What?

Okay, so we've been talking about blood sacrifices since the beginning of the season because we see it in the opening tapestry that's woven in the opening credits of the episodes. From Fire and Blood, quote, the Valyrians were more than dragon lords.

They practice blood magic and other dark arts as well, delving deep into the earth for the secrets best left buried and twisting the flesh of beasts and men to fashion monstrous and unnatural chimeras.

For these sins, the god Enroth struck them down. So that's cool. That's what they did in old Valyria. Blood sacrifices, weird shapeshifting stuff. Really, really tough stuff. That's a lot of royal Targi blood that just went up in smoke inside the Dragonmont. 43 dragon seeds just went up in smoke. And so we're thinking about royal blood and sacrifices here.

We got to think about your favorite scary lady in mind, Melisandre, right? We meet her in the show world. We meet her burning people on a beach, right? Melisandre has this fascination with King's Blood. She says, quote, only King's Blood can wake the stone dragon. So there's Gendry, who you mentioned on Talk of Thrones and Today, or Edric Storm, if you prefer, if you're a book reader. Yeah.

Mance Raynor, Shireen. Like, when she's talking about Stannis, she says he does have power and fire cleanses. And Stannis is such a good, interesting Rhaenyra Cobb here because, like, Stannis is a character, and I might be sick in the head to feel this way, but Stannis is a character who I would still describe as a good man despite the fact that I watched him burn his own daughter. And it's because the Melisandre plot...

is so caught up in this religious fanaticism plus meeting ego, meeting like, I would be a good ruler. When Stannis shows up at the wall, you're sort of like, would Stannis be a good ruler? Perhaps he would. And it's just this like...

What we're getting from Rhaenyra here is a Stannis-Melisandre combination. She is both the leader, the hypnotic religious leader, and the monarch who has drunk the Kool-Aid, pouring and drinking the Kool-Aid at the same time. I think that this idea of King's Blood is so interesting when we think about it in A Song of Ice and Fire because there's no proof. There's no proof of any of this stuff, but there's no proof that

that king's blood, like what makes king's blood king's blood? Like Gendry or Shireen have king's blood in them because they're, you know, because they're Baratheon related, but Baratheons are only very recently kings in Westeros and they are dissidently related to the Targaryens. But it's like, how thick does your M count have to be in your blood to make it king's blood? So it becomes less about like,

the actual content of the blood and more like power resides where men say it, believe it resides. Like if you say it's King's blood, then it becomes this potent, powerful thing. And so you think about this story that comes out of today, out of the red sewing, the legend of the very like Lisa and Al-Gaib-esque like sort of legend of Raniro Targaryen locked 45,000,

seeds into the dragon mount burned 43 of them and two of them claimed dragons right that's such a scary story uh and she did it on purpose and that's such a scary story for people to tell uh of of her power of her of her claim also while we're talking about blood and dragons we have to talk about mary mazor of course um

uh this idea of only death can pay for life and the death of caldrogo and daenerys's baby and mary on the fire are what helped in the ritual of like cracking those dragon eggs for daenerys in the first place and then i'll just say the word summer hall and just like call it a day because that's for a future uh show perhaps to do but this idea of like

blood royal blood fire dragons and how all of this and it's what is so wild about this adaptation what's so brilliant about it is like this isn't really the tenor of the red sewing in the book at all the tenor of the red sewing in the book is like a bunch of people showed up because they because Jace promised them you know land and and the life of a noble and all this other stuff like that and they lined up one by one

And they like either claimed a dragon or they didn't. And a bunch of them got burned, but they all decided whether or not they were going to do that. Rhaenyra didn't like ensorcel them into a cave and then lock the door on them. You know, it's just sort of like it's a much different. It's still upsetting. It's still called the Red Sewing. But like you never get a sense at any point in that sequence in the book that those people couldn't leave if they didn't want to. You know what I mean? And that's.

And the one by one nature of it. You know, it's like, I'll try my hand at this. I'll try my hand at that. You know, not let's just group you all into a cave and see what happens. Yeah. Yeah. And again, just the way the like...

weight of and then the the propulsive like driving thrust of the cannot gainsay what the gods have laid before me part of it is just so palpable here in a way that is really new and and frames and informs our our read on what we're watching here um speaking of our read of thank you for taking us to blood sacrifice i was a thrill loved every second of it genuinely um

It's very clear, I think, three and a half hours into the pod that we loved the Red Soi. We loved the episode. I think we shared the sensation that the pros and cons of having spent time with Ulf and Hugh and Adam, you know, obviously that happens outside of the Red Soi, but it's like...

We know more about these characters, sort of, than we would have if they had just... They're introduced to us at the sewing in the book. It's like, here you go. So having spent more time with them before, knowing a little bit about their lives, being more invested in them than we would be, obviously, definitionally, if we just met them here in the Dragonmont, that's a gain and a win and a thing that we have benefited from. The trade-off, I think, is something that a lot of people are feeling, which is like,

It's hard to think heading into the sequence that there's going to be a different outcome other than the two characters we know standing on that platform.

Gantry. What was the word? Gantry. I've watched every House of the Dragons film and still can't remember it. Gantry. I'm going to come out of it. And of course, like, it's Thrones, so Hugh Ulf, like a character you spend time with, certainly could die, but we don't really have another candidate who... We don't have another candidate in that sequence who feels like a possibility to claim a dragon. You know, you said on Talk of Thrones, like, we needed another seed to have spent time with this season so that we felt like there was yet another possible outcome. I think that's, like, a great call. That's...

that's definitely there. However, we get to see Hugh claim Vermithor. We get to see Silverwing claim Ulf. It's amazing. We'll put that one. Amazing. And the fact that these are so different and also so different then from how Seasmog claims Adam, like all of these circumstances feel so distinct and unique and really heightens that fantasy sense of the bond of what is calling the dragon and rider to each other. Hugh, on the Hugh front, interesting that we do see him

push this other seed out of the way, try to save her, spare her life, and then call Vermithor to him. Here, here I am. I'm ready. Come on. And Vermithor responds. Come on. Responds to that fascinating facial expression on Hugh Hammer's face after he claims Vermithor.

Take me through your guy Ulf stumbling his way not only into cracking a clutch of eggs, protective casing around a clutch of eggs, disaster, but right into Silverwing's napple air, Jo, and some Silverwing quick facts if you want to throw them our way as well. Do you have a napple air, Mallory? Currently, the entire abode is a napple air, ideally. Silverwing.

Born to good queen Alysanne, 36 AC. She and Vermithor coil together. Love this for them. Love that, coiling.

She's been to the wall, but she would not fly beyond it. We've talked about that before. Riderless, like Vermithor, riderless since Alicene's death in 100 AC. And she's a very chill, relaxed lady from Fire and Blood. I would have started with Silverwing. We have a lot of notes for Rhaenyra, but we are not, you know, ordained by the gods, so what do we know? No, we're not. Sad to say. Fire and Blood, from Fire and Blood, quote, Old Silverwing judged to be the most docile of the masterless dragons. So there you go. Um...

Again, I'll let Tom Bennett sort of speak more about what the attraction between these two opposites are. But that was the sewing. We loved it. We thought it was incredible. I think the action of it was incredible. The fake one-er that they did sort of on the ground with all the dragon scenes running around I thought was really cool. No notes. Genuinely no notes for this. And again, the sequence in the book...

Because if we had gone by the book, it would have been like Adam gets a call, Hugh gets a call, Ulf gets a call. And they all sort of line up and one by one sort of approach. And we see burned bodies like that. The fact that they spread it over multiple episodes, the fact that we might not be done with Dragon Claiming in this season, which again would be a book departure but one we're intrigued by. Like, yeah, they really thought it through and I think they did such a great job with it.

One person is less enthusiastic about the sewing than we are. And it's Aemond. It's Aemond One-Eye. It's Aemond Targaryen. Back in King's Landing, the small council is getting a little update on Ormond Hightower's slow progress. The Beast's allies causing trouble on two fronts. Wonderful stuff. Absolute thrill to hear Ironrod say in happier tidings, Prince Daeron's dragon, Tessarian, has at last taken wing. Your brother expects to join the fight soon. When he does, the Hightower hosts will be unstoppable.

We get to see Tessarian in the trailer, the scenes for the finale. We both freaked the fuck out. Blue belly. And copper wings. Copper wings and a blue belly. It could only be Tessarian. Incredible stuff. Thrilling.

The meeting's interrupted by cries of dragon inside now from the battlements where the folks manning big crossbow do not seem prepared. Ulf and Silverwing just out for a joyride. Like, nobody was ready for this. There's that fascinating look between Laris and Ironrod in this moment where they're like, is it sea smoke? It's not. It's Silverwing. It's Ulf.

Ulf seems completely out of control, so I don't think we could believe that he led Silverwing deliberately there. But as you noted earlier, it's fun to think that he's like, I want to make sure my boys see this. Let's fly over. Can we please fly over Flea Bottom? That would be great. And this is a part of this ritual of the Bond. It's like the first flight. Can you hang on? Let's cement this. So that was really fun to see. Obviously, we got to see it with Eamon and Vhagar. Eamon has to run downstairs,

jump on his horse, ride to Vhagar, mount Vhagar, talk about a portrait of isolation and being alone, and fly after Silverwing. And then he does a thing that we are just simply not accustomed to seeing Aemon Targaryen do, and it's

flee. No, Vhagar, flee. Vhagar, turn around. It was a shock and an incredibly dramatically compelling one to see Aemond have to confront the fact that he's not ready for what is waiting for him on that hillside. At least he knows that. Nero and Syrax, Vermithor, Silverwing. He knows what this means. New dragons, new riders. Rhaenyra has leveled up. The dragon mouth has changed. What a thrill. The face, Rhaenyra's face here. Holy shit. Triumph. Venom. Yeah. Yeah.

covered in soot and smoke uh quick uh score uh you know or me javadi quarter from our listener kenzie uh kenzie points out that raniera's theme which is called technically called the power prophecy plays here at the very it's like the uh uh uh i did a bad job uh doing that thank you so much for listening okay anyway exactly what you were talking about um kenzie says we

says we haven't heard that theme since Young Rhaenyra season one. I think we've heard like slight variations on it, but not as like prominently and potently as we do here. So I'll give Kenzie that. But Kenzie was like, this invokes Young Rhaenyra who was reckless, independent, but effective. Young Rhaenyra who marched back into camp covered in dirt and blood with the dead boar. This time she's covered in soot and ash, victorious through her own recklessness and maybe a little high off the prophetic signs shown to her. So.

Great stuff. Incredible final image. Loved hearing the dragons roar. Some great memes on Twitter about, like, what other dragons talking shit to me. I know. We'll have to ask Paula what they're saying. Oh, man. I just want to say, I don't want to linger here too long, but something that Emma said in multiple interviews is this idea that, like,

Damon and Rhaenyra are only compatible when they both feel powerful. They don't know how to be, like, weak together. They only know how to be strong together. She said, quote, their erotic energy, their sex is, like, all power. So my question to you is, in addition to...

what did you say? Trium, Venom and all that sort of stuff. Is there also a bit of horniness for Rhaenyra here at this moment? I love this read. She's feeling herself and she's like, obviously I'm here for this. Where's my husband? Or where's Mysaria? Either one. Or where's Mysaria? Yeah. Yeah. I love this. Incredible. I think the only thing that can top that final note is your interview with Tom Bennett. Anything that you want to tease here to set this up?

Yeah. Right at the top of the interview, you will hear me – I did talk to Paula a little bit, our pal Paula, who does the Dragon Noises, about sort of Silverwing and Vermithor. So you'll hear me refer to that. I use the phrase RP, which is Received Pronunciation, which is just basically like a really upper-class British accent. So when you hear that, think like Dave Maggie Smith, and that's like –

what I'm talking about when I say RP. Also, I did say crikey at one point, and I do think that's my third Cockney hate crime of the episode. And I do apologize to all South Londoners everywhere for saying that. Anyway, I was a little COVID-brained when I talked to Tom. Tom's the best...

I'm not at the top of my game because again I had COVID but please enjoy Tom being absolutely delightful. Hi Jo, how are you? I'm good, how good to see you. Yeah, nice to speak to you. Yeah, yeah. How are you feeling? How's everything going? Oh, I can't quite believe we're here talking. I know. And we're talking because I'm in House of the Dragon, like it's insane. Yeah.

Not only that, you ride a dragon. You're a dragon rider. And now I fly a dragon. And not just the dragon, I probably fly the prettiest dragon. You want to start there? You want to talk about your girl, Silverwing? Oh, my girl, Silverwing. And she's kind and she's loving and she's beautiful.

And I'm very proud to walk out with her on my arm. I love that. A friend of mine does the dragon noises on the show. Oh, I've heard about the dragon noises. Yeah. Yeah.

And she was telling me that she thinks Silverwing speaks with like an RP, like she is just an elegant lady. Is that your... Oh, I definitely... I love the fact that she thinks that because I think that. Because I think that makes our relationship all the more ridiculous. That I'm a flea bottom piece of shit. And she's... But, you know, opposites attract. And sometimes posh ladies fancy a bit of rough. I love this. Let's go back to the beginning. Tell me about...

When you first came in to audition, did you know you were auditioning to ride a dragon? No, no, I did not know. When, because obviously, you know, HBO lock everything down. And when you, even before you've done the self tape, you have to sign NDA saying you're not going to say anything and that's fine. And then the scenes that they give you are heavily redacted. There are no names. Um,

they're kind of out of context. So you just have the scenes and I got the scenes and I read the scenes and I really liked the scenes. And I thought, well, if it's only these two, two or three scenes, this is amazing. This is like, this is a nice, these are some nice things to do, but I had no idea really who I was at that point. I hadn't read the book.

But and also it never says all for why it does it. I think it said UW. So if you'd read the book, you could probably make sense of it. But I hadn't read the book at that point. And so you don't know what you're doing. You can only do what you're given. And it was actually they did. I mean, they don't tell you anything. It was only when I got the job and I and I went into college.

costume they said also we've mocked we've mocked up a you know we've mocked up a little set for your dragon riding armor and i said excuse me dragon riding armor i don't know what yeah sorry i fly what i'm a drag i fly a dragon yeah you there's no one told you you fly oh no no one had told okay well let's let's hang on tight and see what happens

So it's all been like a magical journey for me and Ulf. So did you then read the book? Are you the type of person who wants to read? I'm not saying the book is thick, but I started the book before we started filming and I finished the book after we'd finished filming.

And that, you know, we were filming for five months. So it might be that I'm a slow reader or it might be that George R.R. Martin writes thick books. You took your time, but did you do... I took my time. I wanted to ingest it all. Back when I was doing theatre, I would do that like...

actor thing where you search the script for your name did you search the book for your name and go oh there's not much here about all if i get to create so much of him yeah i i'm not i'm not i don't tend to be someone that reads something just to find my bits but i did i started reading it and i remember the first thing i thought was there is uh

obviously all the names are the same right there's been you know two or three king viserys or just there is there's there's so many of them and i can remember reading about the death of one of the kings and then going hold on so that one wasn't even paddy conceding how far how long how how long have i got to read this book before i get to anyone i've ever met on television before

So that was an interesting, you know, if the book is this thick, we're doing this bit in the middle. Right. But it was genuinely exciting when I got to the characters' names I recognised and then heard about Ulf. And, you know, he isn't fleshed out. He's not a three-dimensional fleshed-out character because it isn't a traditional fiction book. It's a retelling or it's a historical story.

It's a historical book written by three different sources. Yeah. And so there isn't a character there. He's not fleshed out. And that's, you know, that's one of the most exciting things is that Ryan and Sarah and in part me get to, you know, put some flesh on Ulf's bones. This episode, episode seven, when...

We get to watch Ulf confronted by this story that he's told again and again and again, and that doubt that immediately sort of crosses your face. What's the story you made up or that Ryan and Sarah made up about why Ulf started telling this story in the first place? And what percentage of him does think it's true and what percentage of him doubts it? Ryan gave me a very useful piece of paper

on my first day of shooting. Ryan's in the room with me, so I can't tell you what was on that piece of paper. But it was a very, it was, I was honoured that Ryan gave, you know, he pulled it out of his own pocket

script and gave it to me and said, this, this could be useful to you today. Just, you know, 30 seconds before I do the scene. And so that was, that was great. And I, I instantly absorbed that and took that and went, okay, that's, that's where it is. Ryan's telling me to shut up now. I shouldn't say anymore. But it was, it, that it's, it,

It's a story he has told and it's a story he believes and he believes he's Targaryen. And if it gets him a free pint of ale in the cock in every other week, then he will carry on telling that story. And if people want to mention his fucking hair...

He will tell people he's not the only Targaryen who doesn't have white fucking hair. And as far as being in a pub with a pint of Guinness, that's fine. The temperature in the room changes when his mates, who he's been telling this story to for 15, 20 years, say, go on then, fucking prove it. Go and get in a boat and go and meet a fucking dragon and see if you die it.

Then, then the panic sets in, then the doubt, the self-doubt creeps in and it's like, well, was I, am I telling, is it true? Do I believe it? Maybe I was lied to. Are my facts correct? I don't think my facts are correct. Maybe I shouldn't do it. No, I think I've got it right. Please don't put me in front of a dragon. And the temperature changes when you are forced to back up your bullshit. What makes him get in the boat, go stand in front of that dragon? Yeah.

Peer pressure. Bullying. Okay. His peers going, go on then, do it. It's an epidemic. Peer pressure. You fucking said it, now go and prove it. But I, you know, ultimately, Ulf, you know, Ulf hasn't got a lot. Like, he doesn't have a lot. The people of Flea Bottom don't have a lot. And he's never had a lot. And so, ultimately, there is a chance to see if there is more to life than lying to merchants in the cock inn. And, yeah,

Ulf isn't stupid. Ulf is a self-serving, instinctive creature. And if there's a chance to get something... Ulf's not saying I'm going to get a dragon, but if there's a chance to get in a boat and go to Dragonstone and meet princes and kings and queens...

I'm going to do that and I'm going to see what I can get out of that. I'm not saying I'm going to get a dragon, but let's see where this dark alleyway leads. Let's see where this sewer comes out. You've been doing this for a long time, your whole life essentially, right? 20 odd years, man and boy.

um you've done plenty of things you're incredible i've seen you in a ton of things i don't think i've ever seen you doing something on the spectacular level of here's a massive dragon i have to act upon no i've never done anything on this scale not just in terms of a cgi dragon like i've not done any

real fantasy or sci-fi or anything that involves special effects you know I'm a telly boy I've done 20 years of telly from the lowest from the lowest end now the highest end and you know I've done a few films but they're not they're not big budget films you know these are not chamber pieces but they're small they're small comedy films and I've done good telly um so to be to be

in a cavern with 25 stuntmen burning to death.

And to be, to walk the streets of Flea Bottom, to be in King's Landing, to see the Red King, you know, I was, I was the biggest fan. Like I would just take a golf buggy on my own and drive around the sets when I wasn't meant to be there. I was lucky enough. My, my, my kids were off school and I got called in for a last minute costume fitting or rehearsal. And I said, that's fine, but there's no one to look after my kids. Yeah.

And so I was lucky enough to drive a golf buggy round King's Landing with my children going, this is where daddy works. Do you like it? And you get free lunch and you can pick whatever you want. How'd that go? How was that day for you? Joyous. Absolutely joyous. Like, you know, when it's bring your children to work day,

not many children get to go to daddy's work and see men get set on fire. Well, is that the day that you wound up on the House of the Dragon video that went with episode six? Were you just there in a pink polo and you're like, crikey. Oh yeah. So that was, that was in Caceres and I wasn't,

I wasn't meant to be on set that day. I came out of the hotel. They send you out a day earlier for you to acclimatize, which I didn't need. So I came out of the hotel. I found a coffee shop. I bought a flat white. I went for a wander and I hit I hit a security block. And luckily there weren't many Brits there.

just randomly there. And I said, oh, I'm part of this. Is it all right if I go through? She said, do you have a lanyard? And I didn't have a lanyard, but I used my Cockney charm. And I got to go on set and I got to walk around

King's Landing with I think there were like 120 essays there and it was the scene where an old man got his arm chopped off and the great thing was nobody knew who I was

Because they're two different units. Right. And anyone there that had met me before had only met me as Ulf. And so no one knew who this rando was in a polo shirt and a baseball cap, kind of just hanging around with a flat white all day.

hanging around all day. And the number, I think I spoke to maybe four or five people and said, hi, how are you doing? And they went, sorry, who are you? And I was, oh, it's me. It's Tom. I'm sorry. I play all for the white. And they were like, what are you doing? So I got, I, no one, no one really knew I was there apart from Dan who does the BTS stuff. So, yeah.

I wasn't meant to be there. Were you trying to learn and absorb? No, I'm just a complete nerd and a fanboy. I love being on set. I just love being around it. I love being around it on Channel 5 or BBC 2 or in Doctors. I just love being on set. To have the chance to be on

a House of the Dragons set, it's like I'm a 44-year-old father of three. There's no way I'm passing up the opportunity to be on this set and see Olivia Cooke running away from 120 extras while an old man gets his arm chopped off in this beautiful, you know,

with, you know, ginormous blue boards up everywhere so we can put the rest of it in post. It's like, it's magic. Like, who wouldn't want to do that? It's not work. It doesn't feel like work to me.

I was so delighted the second you showed up, not because, as you know, I'm like a fan of your work, but because I was so excited to hear a strong Cockney accent in House of the Dragon because we don't have a lot of South Londoners in Westeros. What like...

When you found out that you could use, you're doing like an even stronger version of your accent. Yeah. I kind of, I don't think I'm turning it because obviously, you know me, you know me as Sir James Martin. Right. In which I do a very, very posh accent. But, you know, this is, I do have quite a thick South London accent and it was, yeah, it's lovely. Yeah.

A, I don't have to do any acting. I don't have to do any accents. I can use my own voice because that's what all actors want to do, really. Just use their own voice. They don't have to think about it. Everyone else is having to do RP and pretend to be lords and ladies and knights and queens and kings. And I'm just this piece of shit from Fleabottom and I get to use my own voice. It's great. But, yeah, we don't. I think...

In season one, you have to know who the Targaryens are and the Targaryens are royalty. And so it's all received pronunciation and they are all playing high status. And I think, you know, obviously I'm really grateful that in season two we get to meet low status people and we get to meet flea bottom citizens because I think it makes a difference. You get to see how these decisions affect the small folk.

And so I think it's a really, I think it's a really great new avenue that, you know, Ryan and Sarah get to explore. And hopefully I'm part of that. I love that. Even before, before you get peer pressured onto the boat to Dragonstone in episode six, you're part of this,

larger conspiracies to sort of rile up the crowd. Ulf is sort of led into his role in that. Is Ulf only concerned about getting a little more meat in his own stew bowl, or does he actually have a conscience when it comes to the larger welfare of the small folk? I could be wrong, but I think Ulf is...

Yeah, he's kind of he's quite a lovable rogue, but I think he's quite self-serving. Like I think he's an instinctive animal and he's a dog and he wants he does want more meat in his stew bowl. And I think he is, you know, he hears the whispers and he hears the talk of people that maybe he looks up to and respects and goes, oh, maybe there's something in this.

What can I get out of this? And if I can shout, where's our meat in front of 80 people, maybe I'll get some more meat. I don't think Ulf has the well-being of Flea Bottom front and centre. I think it's there, but it's not front. It's way behind his own strength.

his own self-serving needs. I want to go back to your first entrance into the inn where the camera follows you in and it's like this very like, cheers, everyone knows your name moment for all. Can you talk about putting that together and just sort of what that scene where we learn who he believes his father is a very specific scene

kind of Targaryen, what all that tells us about who he is. He is very specific about his story and he's very specific about who he is and who his brothers are. You know my brothers, right? That whole scene was incredible. That was...

The tavern scene inside the Cheers, everybody knows you, which, you know, we all reference. That is who, you know, I used to play on stage a very famous character called Del Boy in Only Fools and Horses. And it's that kind of thing. It's the nag's head. It's Cheers. Everybody knows you're there. You're a character. And all this improv, you know, bullshit that I spout out to people. That was my first day on set.

That was my first day on set and there's a hundred essays, there's a hundred crew, there's three cranes. It was my first day so it's like other directors who were going to work with me were all there watching me. Ryan was there and I basically got a three-page monologue full of people's names who are all the same.

And, oh, no, there is a difference between... Because Valerian is the house and Valerian is the steel. And High Valerian is the... And so you get to the end of three pages and then the dialogue coach comes over and says, you're saying Valerian, it's Valerian. And also you're saying Viserys and it's Viserys. And Rhaenyra...

And you're like, oh, God, I can't do it. Oh, my God, it's my first date. I'm really panicking now. And I had to take myself off for a couple of minutes and stare at a corner of a wall and just have a word with myself and go, no, it's okay. Use all 20 years of your experience not to shit yourself and carry on doing it. And the reason I was in Caceres was for one shot of me walking into the tavern. And I thought, why have they flown me to Spain for the best part of a week to walk into a door?

Then I realised this whole street had been, you know, dressed. And again, there's a hundred SA's there and there's a steadicam operator coming off a dolly down a slope, following me, checking out the girl, going through the door, seamlessly cut to me walking into the tavern at Leavesden at Warner Brothers. And so...

It's this brilliant, you know, the opening of Goodfellas walking into, you know, it's a brilliant single. With two, used on two separate occasions to make this. All of it, all of it, I couldn't quite believe. But, you know, it was a joy. It was a joy to do it. Excellent. Well, I'm so happy for you. I was like screaming. Not as happy as I am. Not as happy as I am. And my children and my wife. Yeah.

Thanks so much for the time, Tom. Oh, you're welcome. Nice to finally meet you properly. What a fantastic chat with Ulf himself. Bennett! Enchanting! Enchanting is the word, yeah. It is time now for a quick little book look ahead. If you don't want to hear this, this is the moment where you leave us. We'll see you on Sunday night right after the finale for Talk the Thrones. If you want to hear us do a little book look ahead, stay. Joanna.

Laris, what couldn't you say earlier that you want to say here about Laris certainly preparing Aegon to escape? I mean, they're going to get the fuck out of Dodge by next week's episode. So this is why our training had to be accelerated. If, as we believe, Rhaenyra and co. are taking King's Landing in the finale...

Laris is the one who smuggles Aegon out of the castle and out of the city. So it would be helpful if Aegon was a bit more mobile when they do that. Yeah, I'm going to need Aegon if he's going to escape to not be screaming all

The entire time. Okay, I know you haven't seen it. We're not going to give away their position. I know you haven't seen A Quiet Place day one because you don't like horror movies. No, but I did ask multiple people if the cat was okay. Right, but there's this whole part where they're like running with the cat and trying to get the cat to be quiet. So there's this TikTok trend right now. A bunch of people are like

okay, here's me and here's my cat mittens and we're going to do a test to see if we would survive on a quiet place. And they're like, run around their houses with their cats and all their cats are like, yelling because there's no way you could keep a cat quiet. Anyway, I just imagine. So Laris needs to do the quiet place test with Aegon. Yeah, with Aegon, exactly. Fantastic stuff. Um,

On the idea of bastards and trust, I was like... I feel like in most... There are a lot of things that I'm sort of... The dread builds. You know what's coming. You're getting sad about things that await. I found myself like...

so just riddled with despair thinking about how everybody is going to assume that Adam is a traitor because of what happens with Hugh and Ulf. Now, how will all of that go on the show? We have no idea. But I was just like thinking about that word loyal. That's just like...

It honestly made me want to cry. It was so heart-wrenching. Adam dies, is thought to be a traitor, and Alan survives and puts the word loyal on Adam's gravestone. After Adam's final act. Yeah, of loyalty. Also, Clinton Liberty posted a photo with the weirwood tree that you and I both were like,

This feels illegal that he posted this. It seems like, per the trailer, he's going to Harrenhal with Rhaenyra. It's Syrax and Seasmoker flying to Harrenhal. But in the book, we should say Adam goes to the Isle of Faces. Adam's, like, the only person we know who goes to the Isle of Faces. So, like, for him to pose the werewood tree, I was like, oh, my God, what are we doing here? Anyway, um...

I got stressed out on his behalf. I don't want to get fired. Now we need to go back and look and see if... It's George. It's got to be George. Would Jace, given his touchiness in this episode, would he object to Alan and Adam being legitimized? Mm-hmm.

And is that something we even have time for in the finale? It feels like we don't have time for Corliss to be like, while I have you, Rhaenyra. I think we only have time for it because we see both Alan and Adam in their armor in the trailer. So I think we only have time for Alan to be part... I think...

They're going to do the taking a King's Landing is going to be partially a, you know, a sea battle. So Alan will get to sort of like prove his mettle at sea with Corlys and maybe we'll save the like naming him heir for a season three idea. It's just odd that they've like. That feels like season three. It feels odd that they pushed it in like every single episode this season and then there's going to be like a season three sort of moment. Should have been ten episodes. Yeah.

Eights? Really should have been. Boy, they're all long episodes, but eight is just tight. This is the episode where we saw where all the budget went, where they couldn't make ten episodes. They poured it into all of this. Yeah. It looked incredible. Speaking of ships, the gay abandon and the gullet and how this is obviously looming over, we're still thinking early season three. You mentioned in the book reader section a week or two ago that

your budding theory that, okay, if like Raina pieces out and skives off and isn't with the kids, then,

that will just obviously have a bearing on what's to come. I definitely think that's right. And like if Raina claims a sheep stealer and something terrible befalls the boys and the gay abandoned while Raina's not there, that maybe Raina will blame her in part for that and that that is part of what funnels Raina then into the Nettles process.

plot of like okay well i can't be here i can't be with i i gotta get i gotta be with damon i gotta get out of town i gotta be with my dad yeah yeah uh yeah credit to uh a redditor who is the one who like put that whole thing together just like this i'm sorry i don't have their name right in front of me but like yeah someone really just wrote this incredibly convincing argument about how reina not failing to go on do duty failing to do her duty uh with the with the uh

Aryan poster children on the gay abandoned will be you know mistrusted by an increasingly unhinged Rhaenyra I hope here in the book section I hope I can say I hope we didn't put our like foot too much on the gas of like things are gonna get

real scary, real fast with Rhaenyra, but like they were saying it in all the interviews. So like, you know, I think even before the interviews, it's like it was on Talk the Thrones. We talked about it a lot. It was impossible to watch the episode and not be alarmed by what we were seeing from Rhaenyra. That doesn't, I think, I mean, I just feel like some people are going to watch this without, I just feel like some people are going to watch this episode and just be like, yay, a win for Rhaenyra, a character I like, which is like, but that's part of it too. I mean, what all of this means,

That goes to a point that I wanted to make in here, which is just like, this is such a more satisfying journey to like, quote unquote, Mad Queen Rhaenyra, which is not really how I choose to view her. But like, versus Daenerys. Emma said in one of their interviews, they were like,

I'm resistant to Daenerys, like, costs between Rhaenyra and Daenerys, and I think that that's right. But I do think in terms of, like, a character's journey from a sympathetic hero, like, watching her walk around talking about, like,

No bloodshed, blah, blah, blah. It just did remind me a lot of Daenerys talking about breaking the wheel and freeing the people and stuff like that. And so if we had had even more of this seeded into Daenerys' early journey on Game of Thrones, I think that whole bells moment would have worked a lot better for us. And I think too, we've obviously talked about this previously, but in the book, like,

we have a lot of like paranoia and mistrust that mounts. We've got like, you know, tax policies and the fostering of resentment among the small folk and everything like that. Like, I'm sure that will all be a part of this too. But the, like, Agon's dream is not in the book. So like, all of this, all of the like heightening of the, you know, my ordained mission and I'm the prince that was promised, like,

that's all show stuff. I think like the fact that they're heightening that and making that a very active part of how we are tracking Raniere's progression just feels like what they want us to be thinking about this point. Um,

We see in the scenes for the finale that Alicent is with the kiddos back at the Red Keep. And so it is time to, I guess, retire this theory. But I just want to let everybody know that we shared a delightful brief text exchange where we're like, Alicent, off with Sir Rickard. Is Alicent the new Malor? Yeah.

We loved it. I love that theory. With Allison. But this is where I want to read this email from our listener, Sam, who we quoted earlier in the episode. Sam wrote, I'm scared for Helena. I'm scared for what Allison might be forced to do to defend her daughter. In her interview for Time with Olivia Ann Cleary, Olivia Cooke described the finale in three words as, quote, a sacrifice made.

I think the Occam's razor assumption is that she somehow participates in the taking of King's Landing by the Blacks, either by outright betraying Eamon or at least sending him away on false pretense to Harrenhal. Though it seems for the trailers like Rhaenyra and Adam are going to swoop Daemon, Eamon pursues, gets there after they've left to be alone with Alice in question mark? Alice question mark? Maybe Eamon believes he'll be riding to the Riverlands with Helena by his side, but her mother prevents her from going, thereby functionally giving up the city. Yeah.

a sacrifice made. Because the thing in the trailer is, it's like, Elena, you're going to have to ride Dreamfire. Elena's like...

please leave me alone with my bugs. And Allison is very much seems like defensive of Helena in that exchange. This is a fascinating email because I am interested. One of the questions I had was like, if Eamon sees that Rhaenyra has dragon mathed up, how does he justify going to Harrenhal and leaving King's Landing undefended? Is that not tantamount to handing over the throne? So...

This is interesting. Yeah. I'm really curious to see how they handle that. To me, it seems like there's a shot of Aemond on a hill on Vhagar looking at a taken King's Landing. King's Landing's burning.

Right? Stay tuned for our frame-by-frame breakdown of the trailer on Trial by Content. I have not done all that work yet, but that was on first glance is what it looked like to me. I also think it's interesting in terms of the gold cloaks, whether or not the gold cloaks help with the taking of King's Landing. We have so much evidence of Massaria's ability to get the gold cloaks to help them do whatever Massaria wants the gold cloaks to help them to do. So, yeah. Yeah.

Last thing I guess is, is King Hugh, uh, you know, if Kat is in fact leaving him and going to her family, her brother in Tumbleton, then that gives us, I think more fodder to assume that maybe like finding her again, reuniting with her in some way as part of what leads to his switch. Uh, but also just like the Sarah parentage, it gives you more fodder to make his push, uh,

So that felt just like a hugely notable chip to give him. Completely. Our listener Mike wrote an email, I'm not going to read the whole thing, but he compared the look, and then I rewatched it and I really agree, compared the look that Hugh gives to Vermithor.

To the look a Sildur gives to Elrond in Mount Doom when a Sildur succumbs to the ring and refuses to cast it into the fire. This very, like, scary eye. Like, no, it's mine now. You know? And, like, the dragons, the dragons as we talked about Harrenhal as, like, this sort of comp for Horcrux or the One Ring or whatever. But, like, a dragon as the One Ring and what can it do to you to have one? Yeah.

so excited to find out if you want to hear more book reader look ahead stuff i just will say that dave and neil and i will be breaking it all down on trial by content this week it'll be a particularly i think lengthy juicy one i will not have seen the episode so i get to like freely speculate with dave and neil about sort of what's coming so yeah can't wait cannot wait for that all right we did it we talked about the red sewing we have dishonored ourselves in the crown with our comportment here

But we did our best. Thank you to our small council, Steve Allman and John Richter for producing this episode. Arjuna Ramgopal for his additional production work on this episode and Jomia Deneron for his work on the social for this episode. And thank you to Tom Bennett for joining the pod. Thank you to Preston for being with us every step of the way. And Joe for just the like little Easter egg of moving Preston perch to perch throughout the pod. Wonderful stuff.

We'll see you as soon as we can for our Deadpool and Wolverine pod TBD timing there, but it'll happen eventually. And we will see you live on Sunday night, ringer verse YouTube channel for talk the thrones after the hot D finale until then truly glorious. Well done.