'House of the Dragon' Season 2, Episode 8 Deep Dive | House of R
03:55:25 Share

You'll love Apple Card. It's everything a credit card should be and more. Earn up to 3% daily cash back on every purchase, which can automatically earn interest when you open a high-yield savings account through Apple Card. Apply for Apple Card in the Wallet app.

Subject to credit approval. Savings is available to Apple Card owners subject to eligibility. Apple Card and savings by Goldman Sachs Bank USA, Salt Lake City branch. Member FDIC. Terms and more at applecard.com. This episode is brought to you by Yahoo Fantasy Football, who's been dominating fantasy football since forever. Football season almost here.

And listen, you can never, ever, ever be in too many fantasy leagues. I'm living proof. I've been playing fantasy football, I think, since 1991. Is that possible? Well, Yahoo. I mean, imagine back in the day, we used to have to mail stat sheets to each other. That's how we found out whether we won or lost the week. Now, 2024, you have the newly redesigned Yahoo fantasy app. It's smarter, faster, more fun to use.

Such easy features. You can set your winning lineup faster every week. You can get advice and analysis from the best fantasy football experts. And with Yahoo, there's another reason to join a league. A chance at cold, hard cash. Go to yahoosports.com slash the ringer.

What of Egon? He's broken beyond recognition. He lies in the dark in pain and terror. He has many faults, but...

He still heeds his mother. I believe I can prevail upon him to bend the knee if he heeds it. No! Still! You defend him. Still, you imagine. You can have all you want without paying too high a price. A price I have no choice but to pay. What I want is to set things right. If I am to take the throne, I must put an end to the opposition. I must take Aegon's head. And I have to do it for all to see. You know this. However you may try to evade it, you know this. Choose.

Will you shrink from what you set out to do, or will you see it through and make your sacrifice? A son for a son. Greetings, and welcome to House of R, a Ringerverse podcast on the Ringer Podcast Network. I'm Mallory Rubin, and it is my absolute pleasure to invite you not only back to the Harrenhal Godswood, but also back to the House of R. Joining me today, reminding me that it is best to live, she thinks, however you do it.

It's Joanna Robinson. I'm so sad. This is our last in-studio together for now recording. I can't talk about it. Because I'm going back up north to live with the goat fuckers. Oh, Northern California. No, I love Northern California. Shout out Oakland. Jenny got me an Oakland pin from an Oakland-based pin from Comic-Con, so I'm repping the Bay Area. But yeah, I've been down here all summer. Some people don't know this. I've been down here all summer. Yeah. To be able to record in person with you here in L.A.,

living in an Airbnb when I'll be back living at home starting next week. So this is, we did it. I have one more thing that we're doing in studio, but this is it for us. I'll miss you terribly. I can't confront it. I can't confront it. All right. Let's save the tears. Jo, we are here not only to weep. What if later this week you wake up and I'm just sitting on the edge of your bed like Alice Rivers just crying and I'm just crying? I would welcome it. Okay. Frankly, I would welcome it. Adam, unlock the door. It's

We are here to dive deep, deep, deep, deep, deep, deep, deep into the House of the Dragon season two finale. If Ulf hinders our efforts through sloth or unreadiness, we won't be able to get through all of our programming reminders. So let's just knock those out quickly. First, over on the ringerverse, you and Van, dare I say it aloud, will be doing...

Your Last Jedi debate, the hotly anticipated Last Jedi debate, that is coming later this week, yes? That is coming later this week, allegedly, if all goes according to plan. And it may even, if our video guru, Jack Wilson, gets his way, it might even be a live video pod on Thursday. Oh my goodness. So keep your eyes and ears peeled for that, alerts about that. Van and I will be here in studio fighting about The Last Jedi. Genuinely cannot wait. Great. Also...

Junior Mints, get hyped because Mint Edition will have an Umbrella Academy Season 4 pod at the end of the week. Here on the House of R, we will be back, as usual, multiple times. Next week, we will be chatting in some capacity, now that we are well enough to go to the movie theater, about Deadpool and Wolverine. But we're, you know, we're a couple weeks after the release of that film, so we're going to make that more of a, like...

Marvel. State of Marvel. What happened? Yeah. What's going on? Let's get your Marvel check in because we have Comic-Con news. We'll have D23 news. So that'll be next week at some point. Do we get a whole like Witch Stuff Go section to talk about Agatha? You always have a Witch Stuff Go section. Always. And then...

Also next week, we will be back for one more House of the Dragon chat. We're going to do... We're not ready to leave Westeros yet. I mean, we've got, you know, four-ish hours today. And then we're still not going to be ready at the end of that. So we're going to do a season wrap pod next week. We will be doing some... Handing out some season awards. We will be answering more of your mailbag questions. So keep them coming if you have more House of the Dragon questions. But also we have a lot. We've got a lot. Keep them coming, but we've got a lot. We will also...

be hitting our book look-ahead, which we normally do at the end of the pod. We're going to be hitting that next week as more of a, like, season three and beyond bigger, like, book look-ahead now that we have concluded this season. So we're not going to have that at the end of today's pod as we normally do. That'll be coming next week. As always, full episodes of House of R. Midnight Boys. Pew, pew! Talk the Thrones, which is over now for the...

out for the season, but you can catch up on. All available on the Ringiverse YouTube channel. Check it out. Hit subscribe. You can also watch our full video pods on Spotify. You can listen on Spotify or wherever you get your podcasts. Jo, how can the people follow along? How can they reach us? Oh my gosh. Well, such a good question for you to ask me and for me to answer for you. Listen, if you want to just subscribe to the pods on all of the platforms that Mallory just mentioned so that you can listen to them and watch them multiple times a week,

Who am I to stop you? I think that's a great idea. If you want to follow us on social, on TikTok, on Instagram, on Twitter, on whatever you prefer, Facebook, that's a good way to keep track of things. And also Hobbits.

And Dragons at gmail.com is about to transition away from Dragons and over to Harfoots, but it's Hobbits. We are weeks away from Rings of Power Season 2. I cannot believe it. We got a lot of emails from people asking us to break down the Comic-Con trailer, which we will not be doing anytime soon, but we will do probably in like a pre-Rings of Power prep pod or something like that. So, yeah.

I'm so excited to go back to Middle Earth. Me too. I can't wait. I can't believe it's already upon us, but I also can't wait. Okay. The last programming reminder is always the spoiler warning, the friendly neighborhood spoiler warning. We will, of course, be talking about everything that happened in the season two finale. We'll be talking about everything that's happened in seasons one and two of House of the Dragon. If it ever happened in Game of Thrones, it's on the table. We will be dotting in book context as we go. But anything from the future.

In a book look-ahead section in next week's pod. You don't have to worry about that today. Okay, Joanna, this place will have you barking at the moon. So let's pod.

The Queen Who Ever Was, directed by Geeta Vasanth Patel, who directed the eighth episode of the first season, one of our favorites to date, and then the third episode of this season previously. This was written by Sarah Hess. In season one, Sarah wrote episodes six and nine, and this season, two and eight. This runtime was 69 minutes. Nice. And

Nice. And we got a little update yet again to the opening credits. Rat catchers, they're out. Gotta make room for all of the new dragons at the end. Eat shit, rat catchers. Eat shit. Yeah, and Sarah is, like, also, you know, basically second in command on this show when Ryan...

talks about writing decisions and stuff like that. He often, like Sarah speaks for the show. I guess we should have known there would be no battle. Like we discussed this earlier in the season. We were like, oh, Geeta's directing the finale. Geeta's not really one of their like battle directors. So I guess there probably won't be like any kind of like big action set piece in episode eight. And then we forgot that we said that, I think, or at least I did because I definitely, along with most people, did expect a little something. Yeah.

a little more action-y in the finale here. Well, that brings us to our opening snapshot. We obviously are going to go scene by scene as we always do. We'll be talking about everything that happened in this episode in great detail. But let's set the table a little bit with that opening snapshot. It is not a sentence, but an honor. ♪

Jo. Yeah. Give us a taste. What did you think of this finale? Yeah, a little opinion snack. Yeah. What did you think of the season? If you should care to say that, you can also say that for the season wrap. Up to you. But where are you on the finale with a couple days of distance since Talk the Thrones? My thoughts haven't really changed since Sunday in that I think it's a good episode of House of the Dragon, but maybe a dissatisfying... Dissatisfying is almost too strong, but in terms of a finale...

There's definitely a reason why people are reacting the way that they are to the finale. And so, like, inside, again, like I said on Sunday, inside this episode, there are two big Rhaenyra and her various scene partners scenes that I think are some of the best things that, like, Thrones in general has ever done. But overall, there's just some, like, feels like off balance of equation sort of stuff. But I do want to, I want to, like, try to.

Dig a little deeper into why people, some of the factors as to why people

it might have shaken out this way and also why people are as dissatisfied they are. And certainly not everyone. We got plenty of emails from people saying, I loved it. And also what you see on the internet is not necessarily indicative of like a larger, whatever. But people, this is the strongest reaction to House of the Dragon episode that I've seen from people. First of all, there's the writer strike factor, right? So the writer strike happened. All the scripts for...

How's the dragon call of flack for continuing production through the writer's strike? But what Condal, et cetera, said where they were like, well, the scripts are done. So we're just shooting now. But what is like in TV production, what is usually true is that you are revising as you go. And if they were legally not allowed to revise, you know, that's just that's just a data point. How much it factored in? I don't know.

The leaks. I'm not discounting how anyone feels about this, but I do have to say that, like... And no shame in the game because I have been on the leak front line for years. But, like, the fact that this leaked in snippets in out of order on TikTok, like, and on various social media platforms

you know, nearly a week before the episode itself dropped. Yeah. Means a lot of people watched it either willingly watched that way or were like confronted with like spoiler snippets of the episode and like no matter how you slice it, that's just not a great way to get excited about Right.

an episode of television to watch it that way. So I'm not discounting the way that anyone feels, but also meant that like people who didn't like what they saw had sort of days and days to work up ahead of steam about how they felt so that when the episode hits on Sunday, there is this sort of like, we've already established that we're sort of twisted up about this. Yeah.

There's also this idea of the long breaks between seasons because we're not going to get the next season for two years. Long time. And so if people are like, okay, we're building up to something, we're building up to something, okay, instead of giving us one of those various things, they gave us people marching towards each other and we're not going to see those things clash for two more years. So that's a factor in all of this. No doubt. But I do think it's worth remembering, and you brought this up in Talk of Thrones, this is like...

This idea that a big thing happens in the penultimate episode, in this case, the red sewing, which I think is just a bigger deal than I think a lot of people are giving it credit for, both character-wise and also just logistically, budgetarily, all that sort of stuff. Making those dragons feel real. We loved Grommethor. And they could have...

you know, burning milled that. They could have yada yada'd over the red sewing and we would have been devastated. So this is the dragon math. Yeah. The dragon math is do you want all the time and money that they invested in making these dragons, Melyse, you know, Sea Smoke running down, Adam, like all these moments feel like real, lived in characters, which they did. Like they just absolutely smashed it.

Or do you want two more episodes a season? I feel like that's the payoff. I think you and I would say, why not both in an ideal world? And hopefully the Warner Brothers powers that be sort of see the reaction to this and think like, hey, let's let them do 10 episodes next season. I think we would love that. But this idea that like, I have seen, I will push back on one thing, which is I've seen a reaction that like,

Why would they do a cliffhanger that's so stupid? And I'm just sort of like, that's actually something Thrones has...

famously done. Like, the season four finale of Thrones, one of my favorite, you see like Varys and Tyrion are on a boat to Essos. Arya's on a boat to Braavos. There's just like a lot of people sort of like moving in one direction or another on their way to something. Or the ultimate cliffhanger, of course, season five finale is Jon Snow dead or not. Still waiting in the books. Who's to say? You know, so like that's, this isn't,

this montage marching thing isn't new. I think just on the whole, there was like, I know you asked me for a short take, but I just have a lot, a lot to say about this. And then the other, the other factor, we talked about this a little bit on Sunday in terms of we will never feel about Fire and Blood the way we did about the final seasons of Thrones in that,

We were all speculating because we didn't know what was going to happen. So we were just like chock full of theories and that sort of stuff. The other side of that is that in earlier seasons of Thrones, we had these natural breaking points. Like we're doing book one. We're doing – Yeah, for sure. We're splitting Storm of Swords into two, but we have a clear middle break of that book. Like all that sort of stuff like that. So there was like a clear guideline, whereas this is –

Ryan Connell and company taking a chunk of the book, and we still don't know exactly where it's going to end in the book precisely, taking a chunk of the book, deciding themselves how to break it up over the various seasons, and then we're sitting at home with knowledge that they could have done any number of big sort of event here. It's not clearly broken up the way that it was in the book series. So, I mean, all of that stuff is sort of in the mix. I do not begrudge anyone their, like, strong feelings about it.

about the finale. Yeah. Of course. I just think there's a lot of external factors outside of even the storytelling that are contributing to some of the feelings here. Yeah. Do you know what I mean? But the storytelling is definitely, you know, in the mix there. We spent a lot of time

with the hierarchy. We sure did. Boy, did we. Boy, did we. Yeah. I'm in a similar place with it and I am in the same place as well as I was on Sunday night when we chatted live as I lapsed into a multiple minutes long coughing fit with you and Chris looking very concerned. I remember that. I was like, geez.

What a time that was. What a couple weeks it's been here. But yeah, I'm in the same place as I was on Sunday night. Like, I think as you said, and as we discussed with our guy CR, this was a good episode of House of the Dragon and an underwhelming finale of a season of TV that on the whole I thought was really excellent. And I think both of those things can be true at once. It's true.

It's impossible not to feel like this was an eighth episode of a 10-episode season and that there was a 10-episode plan in place. I think we try to be cognizant of not saying a thing that we predicted because we've read the books. Has to be the way this goes. But I feel like you look back at season one, we knew where season one was going to end, and that's where it ended. Right? We had three guesses for where season two might end, and none of them happened. And that's okay. Yeah.

I do not need a battle for an episode to be meaningful. We both agree on that. That is not actually what it's about to me. Correct. If the season is oriented at least in part around moving the pieces across the map and the board so that they converge on a couple key locations and that's still where we are at the end...

That, I think, inevitably will feel a little bit anticlimactic to people. I think your point about the two-season wait is undeniably a part of this. I don't think people would not feel that way about it if we only had to wait 10 to 12 months, but the two-year thing just feels...

inescapably significant, right? And then I think like, you know, you did a just exceptional stellar all-star job moderating a panel with Ryan Condal after the finale on Monday morning. And one of the things that came out of that, right, was that it's going to be four seasons. Now, I think that's appropriate. Four seasons has always felt right to me for the dance of the dragons, the material that we have to tell in that time.

if we have two seasons left and they are both eight episodes, which, like, we'll see. Sure. But if that's the case... Yeah, Ryan was less clear on episode count. Yeah. If that ends up being the case, which I hope it's not. I think what you said is right. Like, hopefully there will be a switch back to ten. If we have two seasons left, ten episodes each, I feel really great about

what we can achieve in that time. If it ends up being two episodes, and I don't think it's really worthwhile to spend a ton of time perseverating over something we don't yet know will be the case, but just as we assess the pace to this point, if we end up with two seasons left and they're both eight episodes, then I get, in terms of what you were saying about would we have wanted to shortchange the showing to have a different finale? Actually, no, I wouldn't have, but without getting into any of the particulars, which we will not do.

A ton of shit has to happen yet, and a lot of it involves dragons. I don't think that's a spoiler to say. And so if we have to make that tradeoff, then I don't know how that ceases to be the case, and then I worry about whether we have enough time. This is a question I will want to ask our pal Dave Gonzalez on Trial by Contest. Dave knows so much more about digital rendering of things than I do, but it is my suspicion that—

once you have designed the dragon, it is easier to reiterate that dragon in sort of other spaces. You know, so they had to design Tessarian, Sheepstealer, Vermithor, Silverwing, like, you know, all this sort of stuff. And so it's just like, Sunfire, et cetera, et cetera. And so I'm hopeful that it's like slightly easier and cheaper to just sort of like, reiterate those again in future seasons. But yeah, I mean like,

We're not going to have fewer dragon battles going forward. And I think in terms of actually a thing that I have loved about the show, the series to date, and a thing that has been genuinely one of the great delights and surprises of how the story has been adapted, brought from Fire and Blood to the screen, is that we had no way of knowing. Right.

Conceptually, logically, we understood that there would be things introduced in the show that were not present in the text because of the nature of the text, right? This historical and reliable narrator stitched together. But this thing happened and then this thing happened. But all of those moments, those conversations, the exploration of relationships and arcs and the decisions people made in the shadows and the staircases like that no one saw that passage. Yeah.

I don't want to switch into, like, okay, let's get more action at the expense of that. There has to be room for that because that's been one of the joys of the show. Absolutely. I think, like, one thing that I don't personally feel and, like, am not concerned about that I have chatted about just, like, anecdotally with a couple pals and colleagues is

But I think is real for the fans is the end of Game of Thrones PTSD factor of like we were rushed at the end and Thrones fumbled the bag. This is this doesn't that's not an invalid thing to have in our minds. It's inescapable as Thrones consumers. I would argue. Yeah. And again, this is only based on where we are now. We'll see.

I would argue that we're actually in the opposite place that we were with Thrones. Now, the question about how much time do we have left, how long does it take to get things done, do we have enough room in the story, that's valid. But the tradeoff at the end of Thrones was spectacle at the expense of substance. 100%. This finale was the inverse. And

if you made me choose, I would always pick this. Correct. Always. And so that's why I'm not, I was like, oh, none of the things that we thought would happen at the end of the season happen. Huh. We're going to have to wait two years to see those things. Bummer. But I was not like, what a debacle because we got multiple meaningful scenes with characters who the show has allowed us to become deeply invested in. And so I am, I am not just simply not in a state of

I think this is fascinating to, like, parse and interrogate and try to then spin forward. But, and I think, like I said on Talk of Thrones, like, well, the good news is based on where we landed, season three is going to be bangers only, which I believe will be true. And I think if we, if, like, you know, Condal and Co have talked about, like, we want to take the time to get through.

X and thing Y right. And if they get it right and they nail it, it will be worth it. That doesn't mean there's, like, not going to be this kind of period of, like, collective agita and the run-up. That's just the nature of modern-day, like, IP consumption. I think what you said in response to my banger's only point was fair, though, which is, like, that's what we were telling people at the end of season one. So we're in a little bit of a push-pull here. Yeah. On the whole, I thought this was, like,

a really not only strong and compelling but promising season of TV and I feel like the storytellers are in command of their characters and of the tale they want to tell in a way that gives me like confidence in where we're going I wish we didn't have to wait two years the fact that we will be getting A Night of the Seven Kingdoms in between is a thrill I can't wait to be back in Westeros with you talking about Dunk and talking about Egg Condal after that

that I did with him on Monday, like, sort of after it was wrapped, was, like, talking to me and he was like, yeah, there's a lot of other good genre TV in the next two years that people can watch while they wait. Dude, how about that Last of Us hammer on the coming soon? That was fucking thrilling. The Last of Us is coming. Like, all this sort of stuff like that. So, I mean, like, I know that Condal is, like, aware of how people are sort of chomping at the bit for, um,

you know, for more of this story. And I think, I would agree with you, like, I think the command of character is very firm. I think these performances are incredible. Exquisite, yeah. Olivia Cooke, Emma Darcy, Matt Smith, just like, Unbelievable. Top of their game.

But an unfortunate aspect of the story this season is that they were all split up. Is that we spent eight total scenes with Reyna and Tyland. Oh, no. Okay, that's not what you were going to say. You weren't going to say that we spent four. We checked in with Tyland in the Triarchy four times in the season finale. That's part of my larger point. We did. Which is I would say I feel like the equation was unbalanced. You know what I mean? And it's like there are things I don't think I want to trade a single –

Damon is losing his marbles at Heron Hall scene. But probably if I looked, if I were revising this season...

I could cut some of those and add some other things and to make it all just feel a little bit more. There's just like a, you know, one or two Misaria and Rhaenyra scenes that I might cut. You know what I mean? Like there's just like, just slightly out of balance, but never me asking for a battle every episode or there has to be a big battle in the finale or anything like that. Because yeah, with Thrones, it's like,

especially in the end, to your point. Do you remember that time that I like called you and Jason up and we're like, I'm writing a Vanity Fair article about how there's too much spectacle at the end here. And like, that was the most connected. I, you know, we were still like new in our friendship with each other, but it was like the most connected I felt where all three of us were like, yes, this is a problem.

And so, yeah, we're not clamoring for spectacle at the cost of character. You need to spend time with those characters so that it matters when Jon Snow is being swallowed by a bunch of muddy soldiers in the Battle of the Bastards. You have to, like, care about who Jon Snow is. Like, you have to care about these characters in order to, you know, like, feel the... And also, like, but...

to argue for the people who are like, I feel like I'm missing something. Yeah. I do think there could have been something, you know, not to, nothing, I'm not even thinking of anything specific from the book, but I am just thinking like if we ended with something like Balor, which is not a battle scene, but is one of the biggest things that has ever happened in storytelling in general. Totally. I think there's a difference between battle and significance.

forward momentum. Yeah. Absolutely. Because, like, the one thing I think that we, or I, like, was not on the same page with Chris about on Sunday Night on Talk of Thrones, this is the one thing I've maybe evolved on slightly over the last two days was the closing montage. Because when we talked about it, I was like, fuck yeah, that ruled. It got me hyped. And the more I thought about that, the more I am. Maybe I've just seen too many, like, what's the finale of the 70-minute trailer for season three memes? Yeah. The memes.

The memes are wild out there. But that is the one thing that, like, while I still am like, yeah, let's go, let's go, because I care and I want to know what happens next and I'm excited to be back in the world. It is a collection of, with a couple notable exceptions, right? Like, Egon and Laris are moving forward. You made the beautiful point about the inversion of the imagery and the positions for Alice and Raniro, which obviously we'll talk about later. When we see...

Jason Lannister. Jason Lannister. Just marching toward the—like, that's not a new thing. No. That is not a new thing. That is where we've been moving. The Winter Wolves have been marching south all season. And, like, we got an email—I'm not going to get to it today, but we got an email about timeline, which is, like, Aegon's whole body heals, and the Winter Wolves are still marching, you know? It's like— Totally, yeah. That's tough. Also, I mean— Some parts of his body are not going to heal, but—

The face burns look great. They do. I have a lot of thoughts about that. I can't wait. Damn. Can't wait. But yeah, I mean, Jason Lannister, let's just, let's, I actually have a Jason Lannister point that I want to make, but let's get into, let's get into. Should we do it? Should we head to the... Bowels of a Pleasure Den. Ah! Ah!

Deep dive time. You think that's where Otto is? The Palace of Oblendrden? Could that be where Otto is? Seamless cue call from Steve Allman. I know. Steve was fucking ready for that one. Steve was ready. Steve is in finale shape. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Okay. We're going in order through the episode. We're going scene by scene with two exceptions. We are bundling all of the Tylan Triarchy scenes together, and when we get to the first Reyna scene, we'll be bundling all of the Reyna Vale Sheepstealer scenes together. So let's start where the episode starts.

I think it's fair to say astonishingly begins, which is with Tyland attempting to secure the services of the Triarchy. Now, before we get into exactly what plays out in these multiple scenes, I will say this is an example of the kind of thing, like the map expansion. We're in Tyrosh. We're in Essos. I am not Chris Ryan, so I have not been longing for the return of the Triarchy, but just like what we've been talking about since the beginning of the season, and we were like,

Blackwoods, Brackens, the widening of the map, thrilling. Like, panning out, making the world bigger, giving a, like, bit player like Tylan Lannister a more central, consequential storyline. These are things that I really welcome. Yeah. The finale of the season did not feel like the place for this to me. As a place to put all of those scenes? Yeah. Yes. We got this email from Ismail, which really threw me for a loop.

Ismael wrote, I could not help but feel outraged as I realized we had spent far more time over multiple scenes with Tylan and Shiroko developing their dynamic than we did with Prince Jusaris and Lord Cregan Stark. Oh my. Half of their soul interaction was exposition from...

Good old Craig. Big Craig.

Where the wrong things, even if you find them enjoyable, like brawn, get much more screen time over relationships that actually deserve further exploration, like John and Ghost. I mean...

That was a captive audience. Appealing right to you, Mallory. This is absolutely like the fact that we got more time. And also I had this note later, but I'll just say it here. Wild footage emerged that they filmed Craig Stark at the front of the Winter Wolves walking across the twins. They filmed that with ice strapped to his back and they did not go with that. And I don't know why. I have no idea why.

Did they decide they're not... Reserving the right to make a different decision about when Big Craig reenters the story, I guess? Just not wanting to be committed to that? Yeah, it could go a couple of different ways. And so, like, him being there would be, like...

Yeah. We talked about this at the very beginning of the season when part of this is expectations. Totally. They promo'd the shit out of good old Craig Stark and the wall and all that sort of stuff like that. And we were so excited. I did love that scene. You know, and the scene was great, but then we were like, oh no, that's it for the whole season. And the fact that we got more time with Tylan and Lohar than we did with Craig and Jace, or Jake, I think as CR would prefer I call him. Like,

Where's the Craig Jake musical number? I was not as distressed about not getting more in the North until we got so much of Tyrosh, you know? And so I think that, and I had been making this point about Jason Lannister for a couple weeks where I'm like, we keep talking about him and we're not checking in with him. And then we did check in with him and it was like a fun scene. He's got a lion, like, you know. I think more than one. Multiple big crates. Yeah, a couple lions. Why?

Yeah, but like these, the winter wolves coming down, like all of these forces moving across the map. Why not make these characters we're invested in and interested in, like why not give Jason Lannister a scene partner? Yeah. You know, and we're checking in with him all season. Should the scene partner be the lion? It should, and it should be voiced by whom? Yeah.

Why not just have Jefferson Hall do that, too? He's been Hugh in the Vale. He's been Jason. He's been Dylan. What can't he do? Every different line. A different voice for every line. Okay, great. But, like, why not check in with Jason Lannister? Not that I'm sure we would also have the instinct of, like, oh, my God, I can't believe we're checking back in with Jason Lannister. But that's only if you don't make it fun and interesting to do so. Right. You know what I mean? Like, there's a capability for all of these characters who are moving around on the map

Totally. For us to, like, which is something that, you know, to give it its due, Thrones did very well. Exceptional. We were never like, oh, I can't believe I'm back with, like, the hound in Arya. Or, like, even, I can't believe I'm back with Hot Pie. You know what I mean? It's just sort of like... You know what I loved? Listening to Hot Pie talk about how you got to brown the butter. Yeah. Or watching Molestown Horror do this. I mean...

The icons of our time. Making it feel, making the world feel lived in. Alinda Massey, like, that's a character that I feel like we could have gone a little, like, deeper on this season. So, like, again. On my list of questions coming out of the season, genuinely, like, is Alinda okay? Everyone knows she was the one organizing. So is I on my list.

Well, did you see that Condell said that Sharp Point was House Massey's? I was confused by that. Because it's not. Like, it's the

the Bar-Iman's, so that was confusing. And it is established in the show literally two episodes ago that because Corliss and Alan are talking and he's like, we need to swing by Sharp Point first because Lord Bar-Iman wants us to pick up his nephew so he can learn to be a boatswain. So my read, perhaps a bad and wrong read, but my read was that he was just talking about how because Sharp Point is located on Massey's Hook, that it's like...

Massey territory. And because... Massey a jace. Yeah, because Lord Massey... Exactly. Because Lord Massey is on Rhaenyra's council, which in Bookland, like, so is Lord Parma. But, like, you know, they're sworn to Dragonstone. It's all part of the Rhaenyra hive. But, yeah, I... Sharp Point is not House Massey's seat. It's not. So that was... But I was going to say, if it had been... But you just said, like, if this is about... If it's all about Elinda. You know? Anyway, I just...

There was so much that they had to do this season. So I don't want to be unfair, but I'm just sort of like, I feel like some of these side, you know, like Gawain Hightower were like invested, not just because it's like Freddie Fox, but just because we only need to like check in a few times and give them actual like character and personality and things. Great point. I mean, what was the TRT for Gawain this season? Right. Right.

10 minutes? 17 minutes? Yeah, it might even be less than that. But it was effective. Exactly. We care. So I know that they can do it. We understand something about him, about Allison, about their family. Exactly. Yeah. So, you know, they're brilliant in what they do. I just want them to do it everywhere all at once. What could you possibly do?

But, like, what if we checked back in with Craig a couple times this season to see how things are going in the North, you know? Or I guess if he's marching with the Winter Wolves, which perhaps he is, you know? It's a long march with ice on your back, man. And, like, we love...

we're marching you know think about like Tormund and Ygritte like various campfire scenes as they're sort of marching towards the wall you know what I mean like no you never fucked a bat exactly it's so easy when you really drill down on big personalities to make those like we're camping and we're walking and we're camping and we're walking scenes absolute dynamite so I was always riveted watching Ygritte like shave the feathers and the arrows that she was making mesmerizing an artist

Truly. Fuck you, Ollie. Okay. Hanged a boy younger than Bran. Okay. Back to Tyrosh, where the monkeys roam. And a very sweaty, I mean very sweaty, Dylan Lannister. He's like me in the studio. Like, why is it not 61 degrees? And then Arjuna's like, it is 61 degrees. Okay.

Seeking to secure the services of the Triarchy per Aemon's orders, and we will recall from a couple episodes prior that the Green Council hated this plan. But Aemon was really counting on that old Stepstones animus, the Triarchy versus Daemon, the Triarchy versus Corlys, to carry the day. It was not wrong to do so because that is a part of Lohar's— Literally what they say. —cheer and toast. Yeah.

A quick Triarchy recap? Triarchy Stepstones refresh for anyone who isn't CR and hasn't been thinking about the Triarchy and the legacy of the Crabfeeder every minute of every day since season one, episode three.

Myr, that's a place in Essos. Thoros was from there. Thoros of Myr. Myr. Yeah. Lys. Tears of Lys. Yeah. What was it? Longer than a light. Lysiniurgy. Lysiniurgy. Yeah. Lys, that's a place in Essos. Talk about the impact of House of Assian. What a line that was. Exactly. And Tyrosh. Yes. Which is where we are, we believe, are the three places in Essos that form the Triarchy. A very complicated governing system, but here in this show, sort of more just...

gathering of pirates, it seems. And pretty fun. Like, for all my, like, why did we have so, spend so much time here? I thought the set deck looked amazing. I thought the vibe here was really fun. I thought this was a great place to visit. We have, like, no complaints overall about, like, the fact that this exists. Placement in the seasonal. Placement is the question. But, like,

So that's the triarchy in season one, the Battle of the Step Zones, where the crab feeder and Laenor on Seasmoke and Daemon quashing people with Caraxes into the mud. That's the Battle of the Step Zones. That was against the triarchy. That's right.

Daemon and Corlys. Yep. And their forces working together to beat back the Triarchy. Who, we should remember, we're like, you've got dragons? We're good. We're just going to hide out in caves and drive you mad. The fact that the Triarchy has faced dragons in battle is something we should be remembering. So, Stepstones are a chain of islands. Yes.

you know, off the coast of Westeros, between Westeros. I keep talking about Risk because I played this game, Warlight, which is basically an online version of Risk and they have a Game of Thrones map. Oh, delightful. And so, like, I have in my mind, I'm like, if you get an anchor in the Stepstones, buddy...

There you go. You can fuck Westeros up. Do you think a lot about your tax policy? Like, are you just like, you know, George is always like, what was our gross tax policy? And you're like, in this game, what will my tax policy be if I secure the Stepstones? Absolutely not. But what I do know is that you got to secure Dorne and quick. It's very important. So Essos, you know, if the Triarchy want to maybe sort of like...

invade Westeros or at least squeeze Westeros for all it's worth by forming their own blockades and their own taxation system they want the stepstones and Talon's like well I don't know if I the whole generation did battle there like you know like and uh

Oh, man. Did we already have established? I'm sure we did. I just missed it. He's Master of Crane and also Master of Ships? That was odd to me just because the exchange was like, we still need our Master of Ships and let's check in again with like, have we heard from the Red Kraken? So I will say I don't think in this season

they made it abundantly clear whether Thailand had like also taken on the second title or whether he's just saying that because he's

And in his, certainly if you're like, I have no money, you don't just want to be riding the, like, I'm the master of coin. You're probably like, I'm here to secure your ships. I'm the master of ships. But yeah, you know, of our many memorable Green Council scenes that was left a little muddled in the finale. Anything while we're on the triarchy on the high council front or otherwise that you'd like to take us to wig watch and or beard watch TM corner with Joanna Robinson TM? Yeah, in case you didn't see our celebration on Talk the Thrones. Yeah.

the Tairashi member of this like three-person council here has, I will say, there's another guy who's got like blonde wits coming out of a turban. That was not my favorite wig moment of the finale. But the blue beard, blue mustache, blue hair of the Tairashi member. Tairashi's like famous for their like

They're bright dyes and they like to color their hairs and beards and stuff like that. And book accurate, Dario Naharis has this sort of blue, this like florid blue mustache and beard. And do you remember the like the fan art from Thrones days when people would take the two very hot, conventionally attractive men who played Dario Naharis and like Photoshop blue beards on them and stuff like that? That would have been nice. So I have...

I have candidly no complaints about where we landed without Dario. It was a little crumb for those people who missed book-accurate Dario Naharis. Absolutely. So Thailand has a blue beard to look at, but he wants something else. He wants a bath and a flag and a wine. And I'm like, honestly, same. Honestly, same.

But instead of the flag of wine, it's some soup. I want some soup. I do love soup. Yeah, yeah. I do love soup. That would be great right now. Actually, I'm getting hungry. The Triarchy is happy to offer him something else, and it is packed, centered around 100 golden dragons per man. Not per ship. Per man. Fascinating over not only the finale, but the season. Tracking where the money is, where it isn't, who feels they have it in their control, et cetera. Oh, yeah.

FYI. Iron Bank. Iron Bank. I have been preparing for just such an eventuality. They want something else other than coin. They want the stepstones. They want to be able to implement a

Simple tax. Simple tax, Jo, on those passing through. And Tylan agrees. He's very nervous. He says the Prince Regent may have me hanged for this. You know, I'm sure this will be fine because it is not like anybody said in this season of television. The triarchy may play at accepting terms, but they are not to be trusted. Your father knew this. Nobody said that, right? Alison definitely didn't say that out loud. I mean, but it was a woman. So who was listening? No.

Okay, Jo, but the pact can't be sealed until the Admiral signs off. Enter Scirocco Lohar. Played by Abigail Thorns. This is a female character. This is something that Condell sort of clarified in the press that I did with him on Monday. This is a female character who is being sort of misgendered by the men on the council here. They say he and him a couple times, but this is a female character, Scirocco Lohar, who's like, let's...

Let's mud wrestle. That's right. And they do. Let me misname you many times. Yeah. What was your favorite? Tywin, Tymon, Tyra? I think Tywin, just because I'm always thinking about Charles Dance, personally. Good stuff. And then comes this moment that made Mallory and me think of each other. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I'm excited for your framing of this. Lohar says, have you ever eaten the flesh of your enemies? No.

Yeah. Talon says, I have not and I would not. I would not. And I'm just here to tell folks who didn't listen to our Yellow Jacket coverage that this is a forever betrayal between Mallory and me. It was about eating friends, though, not enemies. Mallory asked me what body part I would start with if I had to eat a friend in the woods. Spoilers for Yellow Jackets. And I came up with something. You gave a very detailed answer. You know you said the tongue. I said the tongue? Yeah.

And then I had Sally return and she said, I simply would not. For me. I just went for the straight Thailand Lannister. Well, I'm glad for you. And I had a schedule. Congratulations for your Thailand Lannister call. I didn't know that Thailand and I were so similar. We want a bath. We want a flag and a wine. Would not eat the flesh of our enemies. Do you see any kind of, I mean, personality-wise, I don't see them as very similar, but like. Do I think Jason Lannister would have said, yes, I'm happy to eat the flesh of my enemies? I do. Yeah.

Yeah, I do. I do. Yes. But there's a lot of things he would have gotten wrong. He certainly wouldn't have serenaded the crowd. I don't think Lohar would have fallen for Jason Lannister the way that she did for Tylan.

Tyland Lannister and Jaime Lannister and Lohar and Brienne. Like, Lohar and Brienne are very different personality-wise in terms of, like, badass warrior women. Yeah. That's, like, a thing. In terms of the Lannister getting really muddy, that's a thing. Absolutely. So, you know, hold on to your limbs, Tyland Lannister. I'm excited to spend more time with Lohar. I thought that this was, again, placement in the finale aside, great.

An intriguing introduction. Did not need to spend multiple scenes with Tylan mud wrestling and serenading in the finale of the season, but excited to be back with Lohar in season three. But in general, it's the kind of stuff I want. Absolutely. Exactly. It is strictly a placement thing for me. To the gullet on the morrow! Hail! And let the sea snake rue the day we meet again. Dun, dun, dun. Lohar does have actually one other thing to say, and it is to ask Tylan to impregnate her wife's

So I'm excited to learn how that went. Do you think when, okay, there's a couple moments episode. This is for you, my horny friend. A couple moments in this episode where I'm like, did these people just fuck? And my question for you is when Tylan is on the sort of like prow of the ship looking a little like, looking proud of himself. Yeah. Do you think he re-upped the lyric about greasing the, raising the greased mast? That was part of the song.

You're so dangerously close to George R. R. Martin fat pink mask territory. Oh, man. The pink mask, the cinnamon wind. It's just embedded in our minds, our hearts, and our souls forever. Who else do you think fucked in this finale offscreen?

David and Rhaenyra. Yeah. Before she left Harrenhal. Yeah. I hope so. When he walks out to like look at his troops. A little swagger. Yeah. Yeah. There's a little. He's like, yeah, the last few weeks I've just been fucking my mom in my dreams. Yeah. Now I got to actually fuck my wife. Interesting. Wonderful stuff. Um.

Closing montage. Not Jason Bela, unfortunately. Still waiting for Jason. I think it would... You know, obviously you did important work chronicling this with Neil and Dave on Trial by Content earlier in the season. And we've chatted about this as well. But I think it would do Jace some good. It would behoove them. Yeah. Let off a little steam. But also, I really want, like...

Yes, it would do Jace good, but like, I want it for Bela. Bela has spent so much time taking care of the various moping men around. Time for someone to take care of Bela. Let's take care of Bela. Yeah. Yeah. Joe, in the closing montage, we see the fleet sailing toward the gullet. Must be the morrow. And obviously, we also see in the closing montage,

Corliss and Alan, they're preparing to join the blockade. So this is one of our convergence points, right, that we're working toward. Do you want to spend just a second here before we move on an hour into the pod to something other than our overall thoughts on Tyland and the Triarchy? I wasn't going to say it to be like, they spent too long on the Triarchy and then you and I are like... It's the finale. We have no idea where Otto is when we see him at the end. We have no idea. We have our theories, but we have no idea.

Because this is different. Otto is the one in Fire and Blood. Yeah. Eamon and Tylan, like, got the Otto plot of going to secure the services of the Triarchy. What do you make of that? Fire and Blood said, The schemes of Otto Hightower had borne fruit, meeting in Tyrosh. The High Council of the Triarchy had accepted his offer of alliance. Ninety warships swept from the stepstones under the banners of the three daughters bending their oars for the gullet.

What do I make of what they've done to my boy? That's not... Actually, fuck you, Otto the Nighthide Tower. I will say I really missed Otto. As a character, yes. But what the realization that Alison comes to at the end of this season, I don't think she gets if she's anywhere near Otto. Totally. Totally. I...

I don't have a good answer. I'm fascinated to find out why they made the switch and what they decided to do with Otto instead. Yeah, same. I genuinely have no idea. Or is he because one of our theories could be... Because, okay, when we see... I'm skipping ahead. But when we see Otto, he's in a cell of some... Looking a little worse for wear. In a cell cage of some kind. To me, there seems to be a gentle sway of motion in the light. Right. That could either be...

he's in the hold of a ship somewhere. Right, and the space is moving. Or it could just be the light moving and creating that kind of effect. It could, but to me that looked like he's in a space that's moving and it seemed sort of smooth enough that it could be a ship. So he could still be part of the Triarchy story, we just don't know. Or he's been captured by the Beesbury Force on the road somewhere and he's in like a carriage somewhere. Yeah, yeah. Or...

If he could be on another ship. I mean, we hear a lot about the Red Kraken. Exactly. The Greyjoys have him. Yeah. That would be fun. Yeah. That would be fun. Well, I also personally am like partial to the theory that he never got out of King's Landing. That Laris has him. That Laris, yeah, scooped him up. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I like that. That would be interesting to me. Yeah. Like, where is Otto? Those are the four good theories. It's just like there the whole time. I like that. Triarchy, Laris, Greyjoys, Beesbury's.

I hope it's the bees. Of course you hope it's the bees. I hope it's the Alan. Damn me. I can't wait to meet Alan Beesbury. Really can't wait. Okay, next scene is Amand sitting on Vhagar. Vhagar's mouth is still aglow looking at Sharp Point, which he burned. We already talked about what Sharp Point is, where this is. Anything else you want to add here? I'm sure Vhagar was delighted to burn more innocents. She loves to do it. Favorite, favorite pastime. Let's get to one of the best scenes of the episode and best scenes of the season.

Lyris, preparing Aegon to depart King's Landing. Joanna, what a scene! I do not want to scoop our eventual season awards. We don't know actually what categories we're picking for our superlatives, but was this the season-stealing surprise pairing for you?

I don't know. I feel like, like C.R. smugly cashing in his Chris and Cole stock, I feel like I bought low on Laris. Yeah. And I'm feeling good about that. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. They're tremendous together. That's an incredible Laris season. Tremendous together. They really are. Yeah. They really are. Okay, we have a lot to talk about here. Egghead just wants Orwild to mix some rum with his meds.

Orwell's, I would like, next season, here's my note, next season I would like to know a little bit more. Orwell seems like any way the wind blows is sort of where Orwell wants to be. And I would like to know what, like, what are his motivations? What's going on with Orwell? Yeah. Because, like, later when Allison's like, hey, can you get me

out of King's Landing, I'm pretty sure Orwell would be like, hey, Laris, can we get Allison out of, you know what I mean? Yeah. He's in, he's cooding with Laris pretty strongly at this point. He's definitely currently in the like, you know, midway through a season of Survivor. He's got multiple final threes. Yes. Which is interesting. You and me, we're going all the way. All the way. We will be sitting together at Tribal Council. I'm prepared to make fire against you. Yeah. Yeah.

But you're right, like knowing then the motivation or what the true lean is, or even if we don't know the true lean, understanding better what is driving those different decisions. That's something to look forward to in season three. So Lyris tells Aegon about the red sewing and about everyone's favorite town, Sharp Point. Everyone's favorite coastal city, Sharp Point. Yes. And our question that we asked on Sunday, and we ask again, is like, Yes.

How does he know all of this? Yeah. Like, how much did he know and when? And, like, how does he know that Aemon fled in terror? You know, which might be, like, a bit of an exaggeration, but still he knows that, like, Aemon flew out on Vhagar and then why he came back. Right. So I think he has...

Just like Massaria has eyes and ears on King's Landing, I think Laris has eyes and ears on Dragonstone. Wide whisper net. Yeah. Yeah. This is an interesting one. Not only the question that we'll get to the Aemond Ironrod seed later, but we talked about this last week, Laris choosing to withhold

the information that he has. That's one part of it. But how is the information making its way to him and what is the network and who is in the network is a scintillating thing to consider. I was interested, obviously, like, to the fled in terror part and then Aegon's deserves no less reply. Like, that was fun for them to each just enjoy a moment, like, relishing in Aemon's misfortune. I also just, like, we have a lot of very rich thematic things to break down here, but I did think just, like, in terms of the fabric of the story, like,

a small thing like Aegon greeting the news of the sowing with like, this is impossible. What you're saying is impossible. It's not true.

It's impossible. It reinforces just, like, the astounding nature of what Rhaenyra has achieved. And I like those little moments that just remind us, like, this is just not a common thing. This is not a thing anyone would have expected or predicted. This is not a thing other people would have done. And we need to, like, hold on to that. She's an innovative leader, Rhaenyra Targaryen. Do you want to introduce to the pod our new favorite recurring segment that's going to just sweep the nation and fill people with joy and excitement? Yeah.

Nihilism Watch. Nihilism Watch. I was like, should it be called Nihilism Watch? Should it be called Nihilism Corner? What's catchier? You know, Nihilism Tracker? The Nihilism Niche. The Nihilism Niche. Oh, God.

Yeah, this is a very nihilistic episode. You know, it's not the first time in a Thrones season that we've watched many of our characters confront some sort of nihilistic tendency. But that moment when Aegon says, so what was the fucking point in all this then? And, you know, there's like the personal toll that he is weighing there, right? Yeah, because I don't know if you've heard, but his cock is gone. Yeah.

Just straight up gone. Sausage on a spit, Jill. Just gone. Sausage on a spit.

incurring all of those catastrophic injuries and this life-altering circumstance. And then he's like, for what? Now, he hasn't, in real time, in the flow of this conversation yet, abandoned the idea that he should be king. In fact, he's like, I don't want to run. Take me to the throne. Aemon's working through it. Great. Here's our moment. Put me back on the throne. And when he returns, we will take him prisoner. And this was really interesting to me because it answered a question that we had after Rook's Rest, right? Like,

This is such a deeply shameful thing for Aegon that this happened. That this happened, period. That he was vulnerable and susceptible in this way, but that his brother did this to him. Would he say it out loud? Would he tell other people? And the fact that we know now he is willing to reveal Aemon's treachery in order to take Aemon off the board and eliminate him and get his revenge, right? Yeah.

Even though it means people will know that this happened, not only is that an interesting development off the heels of the, like, I'm going to press my small ball into your burns and make you say I remember nothing and try to intimidate you into silence. Yeah. But just that larger question of, like, what does it tell us about Agon's psychology to me?

keep this quiet or say it out loud. Like, the fact that he's prepared to say it out loud was really interesting. And I think especially when we then couple it with, like, the Alicent-Helena-Aemon scene, this chokehold of fear that Aemon has on everybody, you can feel it receding on a character-by-character level. People are ready to stand up to him, to challenge him. That's because he was invincible on Vhagar, and now Rhaenyra has all these other fuck-off dragons. Yeah.

Fuck off, dragons. It's just great. The red sewing was a big deal. Big fucking deal. A big fucking deal. I mean, big fucking deal. Are you kidding? I'm incredibly fond of the red sewing. I thought it was fucking amazing. Laris tells Aegon that he moved the coin, right? We had heard all this discussion from Simon, from Laris, about the Harrenhal's coffers. Here it is. It's the Iron Bank of Braavos. And it just, like,

Incredible exchange ensues. We have to hear it. Steve. We can live well and remain until what is coming has passed. You want to take me to Essos to live with the goat fuckers? It's best to live, I think, however you do it. Is it? My dragon is dead. I am burnt and disgusting and alone. And I'm a cripple. You're not alone. My cock is destroyed, did they tell you that?

It burst in the flames like a sausage on a spit. Do not despair, Your Grace. There are better days ahead. I know there's a moment in here that just went straight to your heart, made you feel really emotional. And it was the use of the word burst.

This is honestly, genuinely a remarkable bit of television here. So evocative. But yeah, Laris is, you're not alone. You and I both really responded to this. I loved this. Tell me what this meant to you. Well, I mean, this is something that we had actually talked about earlier in the season in sort of the book look-ahead section. Yeah. Is this idea of like,

Because in the book, all we really knew is that Lara smuggled Aegon out of the city, which we get in the finale here. So we knew that that was coming. But this idea of them sort of bonding, again, this is a character deepening angle that the show is taking over the bare bones of the story that's in the book. And so, you know, them bonding over their, you know, feelings.

state of their bodies is just like really emotional and for Laris who is like yeah a creep and a manipulative like

you know, piece of shit and all this sort of stuff like that. But we have, over the course of the last few episodes, like, learned about what it was like growing up in his family and learn how his father reacted to the way he was born and all this sort of stuff like that. There are things that bound them together even before Aegon got burnt and this idea of, like, their relation to their fathers and stuff like that. But it's not something that Aegon... It's not something that Aegon ever would have seen and is still not...

open to and whether or not that will change for him we'll see but like

I don't know, Larys clutching to this idea of, like, could I have a friend is, like... Yeah. There are so many bids in this episode. We were joking about this on Talk of Thrones, this, like, come to Cabo with me. But there's so many of the bids of, like, join me. Yes. You know, Aemon saying to Helena, come with me to Harrenhal. I don't want to stay. Like, Rhaenyra saying early in the season, like, I don't want to stay in the lot. Join me. And it reminds me of, like, the conversations we had earlier.

with Leslie Hedlund around Acolyte, that scene in The Last Jedi, what a great movie, where... I had to get one more in. We'll all remember this one. Where Kylo says, you know, join me, please. This please bid for, like, unity from even, you know, some of our most reprehensible villains, because that's what you want. Yeah, absolutely. Humanizing. In a villain is you want this sort of, like...

I don't know. It's a reason Judas is the main character of Jesus Christ Superstar. Or Burr is the main character of Hamilton. There's a reason, you know? And so, like, yeah, inside this sort of, like, the dark corners of Laris' heart that is full of just, like, ambition and cunning, there's also this, like, yearning for connection. Yeah, yeah. And we've been talking about that, you know, since their earlier scenes together, but, like, the way that...

When Chris asked us the question, like, you know, is it this or that? Like, the way these things feel entwined with Laris, the motive. He is working Egon toward an outcome here. Of course. But there is a genuine feeling that is entwined with that. And it was, like, incredibly moving and compelling to watch. And I was really struck by the fact that, like, he didn't challenge anything.

There was no contention with anything Egon said except the you're like, I'm alone part. That was the one thing because, and you know, like you're saying, we know that that's the other things are the things that he's trying to get Egon to accept, right? But this is the one thing that Laris wished we can glean. Someone would have said to him at some point. Like I was thinking it made me think of what you were saying about like really wanting to

Because we got that moment with Harwin and Lyris at the pre-wedding banquet feast, talking about what color, when the Hightowers call their banners to war. What was that relationship like? Moments like this really made me want to learn more about Lionel and Lyris, Harwin and Lyris, et cetera, et cetera. So this was just very effective. I would like to briefly go back to nihilism, watch nihilism, quarter nihilism.

Where did we land? Do we want to call it the Nihilism Niche? Let's do it. This idea of, like, Aegon wondering what kind of life is worth living. We've been talking in general, but specifically, actually, inside of the Laerys Aegon scenes, like, these bits of connective tissue to these bigger thrones ideas that we love. We've talked a lot about cripples, bastards, and broken things, wear it like armor. And this reminded me...

This was a very effective way, I thought, of capturing that tie again, that Aegon is still—obviously, the particulars are different, but Aegon is still in the Bran position of waking up from the fall and saying, I'd rather be dead, right? And when Rob tells him not to, he repeats it and insists, and you can feel, and of course, this builds, like—

Beautifully in the book toward Bran thinking of himself as Bran the Broken in a way that they think, I'm not going to get into it. They simply will not get into Tyrion naming him Bran the Broken at the end of the show. Guess what? We'll come back to it. I simply will not get into it for a handful of scenes. And then we will. But like that Jaime-Tyrion conversation in the same stretch of the story at the beginning of season one, you know, Jaime saying, like,

Even if a boy lives, he would be a cripple or grotesque, giving me a good, clean death any day. And Tyrion's like, speaking for the grotesques, I have to disagree. Death is so final, yet life is full of possibilities. And how characters like Tyrion or Larys, who have lived through letdown and pain and suffering and people disappointing them, have been able to evolve to that position where Larys can say...

And this will be your advantage. Well, Aegon isn't there yet. And how could he be? He's just confronting this new reality. What's so beautiful about Jaime Lannister, one of our favorite characters of all time, is that Jaime then, of course, has his own journey through a physical event that changes fundamentally who he thinks of himself as. And this is something I brought up on Talk of the Thrones. I really do feel like the...

overarching theme of this um episode which i think goes hand in hand with nihilism uh niche is um is i'm not who i thought i was in the story you know absolutely and so yeah bran who always dreamed of being a knight or jamie who you know was that hand was that sword yes you know that's who he was then has to find out who am i if i am not that absolutely and so agon who am i if i am not

That king sitting on the throne with the pussy posse around me, right? Like, one of them's dead, the other two are at the wall. And he's also not who he was before that. Exactly. Yeah. Speaking of tough stuff for Aegon's cock, we should note that this does mean, just in terms of thinking about, like, the story, where the characters are, what can happen, Aegon cannot father. He said burst. He did say burst, like a sausage on a spit. He said burst. Oh, dear. Yeah.

Brutal Simon, thanks. Oh, Simon. Aegon cannot have children. So Jaehaerys, Aegon's male heir. Is dead. Is dead. Well, baseball neck, we remember you still, we mourn you still. Jaehaerys. Going to Cabo with Alicent. Yes, exactly. Ready for holiday, but cannot be propped up as...

Aegon's heir for the same reason that they all said to Alicent when she made her pitch to be regent, to just prop up a woman of our own. And Maelor, as we talked about at the beginning of the season, is not in the story. So Aegon the king has no male heirs. Exactly. Aemond the prince regent has no male heirs. Right.

I will now share another passage with you. Burst. Yeah. Yeah.

And would often watch from behind a curtain as one of his favorites, coupled with a serving girl or a lady of the court. When I look back on the season and I think of my regrets.

Not reading that out loud to Chris on Talk of the Thrones is high on the list for me because I know it would have led to one of those, you guys spend your time reading this moment? So we would have been like, we do, and it's great. You know what I'm devastated by? I'll save it for next week when we do the book look ahead, but that we can't share the moment in the dressing room after Talk of the Thrones on Sunday when we said something about the state of a certain character.

And Chris is like, that thing is X? Anyway, it was just like, it was like a real, just like spit your tea out. Oh man. There's only one CR, you know? So good. There's only one CR. Laris. Yeah. Trying to get Aegon to see the bigger picture. If they challenge Aemond now, how are they going to fend off Rhaenyra? Did this make you think of Cersei? Only when you said it on Talk of Thrones did it make me think of Cersei. At the end of season seven. Yeah.

Let the fucking army of the dead and the army of the north fight each other. I intend to stay among the living. That's the thing that Cersei says. That's basically Lyra's pitch here. Let the monsters kill each other, and while they battle in the north, we take back the lands that belong to us. What Lyra is laying out here feels very similar. There's obviously not the equivalent of Jaime standing there being like, wait. Are we the baddies? Are we the baddies? You saw that, right? You saw that, right? And Lyra knows it's not enough to just say, like,

Leave the throne behind. Right. Come with me. Don't worry about the goat fuckers. Essos is lovely. Wait until you see the finale. They have monkeys. They don't fuck goats. They have mud pits. Mud pits. It's sad because he is Laris and he is a master strategist.

He appeals to the thing that he knows Aegon wants to hear more than anything else. The thing that he has not gotten from Alicent, that he has not gotten from Otto, and that Larys has been giving him since the beginning of this season. Yeah. When after the throne room sequence, Larys pulled him aside for a chat and he's like,

I mean, I was young when the conciliator ruled, but you really reminded me of Jaehaerys. Boy, you've got your father's knack. Well, but this is what I mean about Plantea's deeds. Because the reason that you're like, this is, you want to parse every single word of the scene, not just because you're Mallory Rubin and that's what you do. And because it's Larys. But it's because Larys and I love him.

But because this has been seeded all season. Yes. You know? Absolutely. Perfectly. We really, really did. I thought this was great. They will hail the returning king, his father's true heir, Aegon the Victorious, risen from the ashes, Aegon the Peacemaker, Aegon the Rebuilder. And then Aegon says, with like, I thought an absolutely mad...

The realm's delight. Glint in his eye. Egon, the realm's delight. Tom Glynkarni. Fantastic. Unbelievable. Like, did such a good job at the beginning of the season, just, like, giving us this, like, full-blown, just incredible, shitty, terrible, wonderful King performance. But this, like...

egg on the burnt from his bed. Really good. High off of whatever, you know, dream wine or milk in the poppy they've allowed him to have. Great. Fantastic stuff. Monikers, this is another smart... Titles, titles, titles. Titles, titles, titles. You know the damn words. No, sometimes you've got to find the damn words, Robert. And let's do that right now because this is...

in addition to like, oh, you want to be beloved by the small folk. You want your father who you said he had 20 years to change his mind and he never did to accept you to choose you. What else is Lyra playing at? I know this guy loves the idea of a slick sobriquet. Right. Dragon cock off the table. Well, does it have to be?

Like, print the legend, right? Sure. Print the legend. What else did Egon and the Pussy Posse consider? The magnanimous. Yeah. The generous. Yeah. The dragon heart. They were concerned that nobody knew what magnanimous meant, which is still hilarious. Wasn't there like a... So funny. Wasn't there a Google Trends spike on searching for magnanimous after that happened on the show, proving it right? Incredible. The untamable beast. Incredible. Just really...

Really good stuff. Fantastic. I just love this so much. And we had heard Otto in the Dragon Pit during Aegon's coronation.

Put a little moniker out into the world for Viserys, right? Viserys the Peaceful. We agree, Viserys the Peaceful. Like this idea of trying to sum up what you want people to think of you with one tidy title. Very interesting part of how the royals exist in the Thronesverse. You will, however, have heard Team Black, Team Rhaenyra, book readers cry out in anguish.

When Aegon, gleam in his eye, is like, the realm's delight. Because that's Rhaenyra's name in the book, right, from Fire and Blood. At the center of the merriment, cherished and adored by all, was their only surviving child, Princess Rhaenyra, the little girl that the court singers dubbed the realm's delight. And then later in a lavish ceremony at King's Landing, hundreds of lords did obeisance to

to the realm's delight as she sat at her father's feet at the base of the Iron Throne, swearing to honor and defend her right of succession. I love to do obeisance. You do. I do love to do obeisance. You love to do an obeisance. But like, and what is fascinating for Rhaenyra is that the realm's delight is,

uh name loses its shine when she gets a bit older she's had a couple kids they're like she's thicker around the middle no longer delightful um and so it's like when she's a young girl or a teen the realm is like delightful very weird she's like a woman fully grown and they're like yeah and in terms of agon's response that like kind of

coveting that love from the masses, then it's perfect because not only is it greens versus blacks, Aegon versus Rhaenyra, it's like, specifically that second passage you read,

that moment of being the chosen one, like chosen by Viserys, right? Like, you're the one I picked to carry on my legacy. And so Aegon trying to like latch onto that, again, that thing that Viserys never gave him while he lived and despite the misinterpretation, never intended for him to have it all. And it's so interesting because, and we'll talk about this a little bit more later, but Condal is really latched onto this idea of like, that was Aegon's life, right? I don't know, Aemon and Helena and Dany,

Darren by being elsewhere entirely sort of coped in their own way. But like the way that Aegon has been, you know, pre-Byrne, like twisted by, you know, Viserys's neglect and Alyson's contempt. Yes. Compare that with what happens to Rhaenyra when Viserys dies and she's confronted with this narrative that in the end he didn't choose you. And what that does to her, we've talked about this a little bit last week in terms of like

you know, according to Emma Darcy, it sent Rhaenyra to the history books, scrambling for, to feel closer to her father. But what does it send her, like, scrambling for? Because this is like, this is just like a core belief in her life. My father has chosen me. Yes. And therefore I have like purpose and meaning. Yeah. And when initially, like,

And when Alicent and co. try to, like, pull that away from her, she's left scrambling trying to fill in those gaps of where, once that approval is stripped from her, where does she find it or what does she do for it, you know? She was my only child, the realm's delight. I named her out of love. And because I no longer believed. When Vissera says that to Alicent at that bonfire scene.

We're almost like not as much of a thing in the show, but yeah, it does get mentioned when he is hammered. Terea, should we talk about Reyna? Let's do it. So this is when the first Reyna scene comes into the episode, so we're going to talk about all of these moments here. Let's just say, it looks cold. She's hungry. Her boots are worn out. Extremely thirsty. Like, my girl did not plan ahead. Yeah, if you were going to...

on your agreement with Rhaenyra. Not an agreement that Rhaenyra should have asked her to make, but one that was made. And abandon your half-brothers. First and foremost, I simply would not. Yeah.

Would you pack a better go bag is my question. I would pack some granola bars of some kind. Yeah. I'm not a great camper in general, but like, you know, if I'm going to be out there, you know, I would grab a couple of the like string cheeses that we have in the fridge at work here. And I would just make sure I had some. I do love those string cheeses. They really come in handy. The little hummus cups also great. You think we're going to say goodbye to egg on a visceras?

No, because those kids can't keep their traps shut. So, you know, stealth was important for her. Or maybe it wasn't because no one seems to have noticed that she was gone. Right. Yes. So in the closing montage, she finally reaches her target. Sheepstealer has entered the chat. One of the three wild dragons from Dragonstone. We still have not seen our guy, the cannibal.

Or Grey Ghost. Will we ever? I hope so. Sheepstealer's here. Very dirty. Very skinny. On edge. Yelling. I love him already. If we... We may or may not get to have, like, a chat with our friend Paula Fairfield about the sound. But I really want to talk to her about what Sheepstealer sounds like in this moment. Because, like, the voices of the various dragons...

are incredible. And she actually had some like, she had a really cool thing to say about this. If I don't get to talk to her for some sort of content that we put up for you guys, I'll talk about it next week on the pod. I texted it to you. It was kind of like amazing. But yeah,

Fire and Blood's not, like, super flattering to Sheepstealer, right? Fire and Blood says, Sheepstealer, a notably ugly, quote, mud-brown dragon, hatched when the old king was still young, had a taste for mutton, swooping down on shepherds' flocks from Driftmark to the Wendwater. He seldom harmed the shepherds unless they attempted to interfere with him, but had been known to devour the occasional sheepdog.

And our listener Nina pointed out that Sheepstealer's long curly claws suggest that the other dragons are having regular pedicures and that this is somebody's job and I am here for this. Do you think the ancient order of old Valyria dragon keepers who went on strike at Dragonstone around the Red Sewing, do you think they're out there giving dragon manicures? I mean, we saw what Maelys' talons did to...

a Sunfire and Vhagar, like some nail filing, whether it's natural or otherwise. I mean, I guess the rocky crags of Dragonstone probably do like act as a natural. But there's plenty of crags in the Vale and good old sheepies like out there just letting them curl. Do you remember where you were when you first saw like one of those things in the Guinness Book of World Records where it's like longest nail ever and you found out that they curl at a certain point?

gross. Terrifying. But that is what's happening with sheepstealer hair, right? Oh, man. Joe, we do not actually get a claiming, but it seems like that's where this is heading. Uh,

We'll talk about some questions and other things on our mind in our book look ahead next week. We've noted before this would be like a different book departure. A different thing if this happens. So we genuinely don't know exactly where this is going. It certainly seems like we're marching toward this. I will say one of the things I liked about this season a lot is the different, and this dates back to last season with Eamon and Vhagar, every claiming feels distinct. Right?

Right? Something distinct about the character, something distinct about the dragon as a character, about their bond, about the circumstance, and I like that. So, Reyna, if they do end up pairing, like, the path to that being totally different from what happened to the sewing, et cetera, is cool to me. And so, much like...

The triarchy, this is like a how it was parceled out and when in the season thing for me. And also, again, like some of the, oh, we have questions about Thing X, if this is what happens and what that means for some changes, like which we'll hit next week. But something we should say is that, like, I agree with you. Cutting back multiple times in the finale, I was like, must we? I think this is okay to say that the person who claimed Sheepstealer was

in the book does so like coaxingly and over time and I love that same it's amazing that could still happen we Reyna might take half of season three to claim this dragon I don't know I genuinely don't know so boy what a harrowing possibility I think you might be right Jace Jace

Our guy is still not a fan of Team Bastard, but he is about to find out that Ulf the Sot is a big fan of hugs. Straight up not having a good time. My lord. This was, I thought, an incredibly entertaining scene. We find Ulf. Jace finds Ulf. Boots up.

on the fucking painted table. He's using the painted table. I got the conqueror's painted table as a footstool. And Hugh is just imploring him. Like, we've really got to get to the training yard. If I'm Hugh, I'm spending my time with Adam. And I am just like, like, I understand that he's trying to distance himself from Ulf, but I'm like, just, I'm like, just go hang out with Adam and don't even like hang out with Ulf. It's not, it's dragging you down, my guy. Um, the,

The boots on the table. Yeah. He has this incredible email from our listener, Tyler, that was titled, Of Maps and Models of Gantries and Balconies. Gantries! Gantries. And he was just talking about all the ways in which we see characters on top of or towering over the physical. So Ulf has his boots on the map table, right? Yeah.

So Tyler wrote, I just pour over the plans. Yeah.

Just as someone gave him a spear to kill the already captured heart, and the model is rather plain and gray, perhaps reflecting his desire for some peace in his turbulent later years. Gantries. We all know what a gantry is, obviously. Always have. Always have. Moving yourself to a gantry removes yourself from the situation when you're above and protected, gazing down on the small folk below and trapped in this situation. A gantry is a position of safety and privilege. Balconies.

As Iron Rod and Laris Strong look down on Aemon in Season 2, Episode 7, the size makes a difference here. Aemon, intimidating and ruthless, looks like a child down in the courtyard, while those of, quote, lesser power, Jasper and Laris, stand far above him. Laris, in rejecting Jasper's information about Seasmoke's new rider, demonstrates his power in the situation himself.

represented by his physical elevation. And Balki's number two in season one, episode seven. Aegon is straight up housing his dragon. I want to say hosing, but housing his dragon, if you know what I mean, while standing in his open window with the City of Kings landing below him. It's pretty gross, so I'm not going to analyze that one too much. You want, out of deference to the burst condition, you want to sort of like take a pass on that one. Yeah, yeah. I had said in our notes, you know, it's...

very much like Homelander pissing on the city or Roman, you know, wanking on this window, but like out of respect for Aegon. And then the sausage on the spit, we can no longer invoke one of the best moments of season one. Remember the good times. Oh man, what a time that was. I like that idea of like how to use these, I mean, you can't really use it with the whiteboard that they have in King's Landing Small Council. But yeah, this idea of like

Power as represented by physical proximity to maps and gantries and balconies, etc. Gantries. Love a gantry. Yeah. Always have loved a gantry. A word I definitely always know. Jace, skip the sewing. Yeah.

So this is the first time he's meeting Ulf and Hugh, and crucially the first time they're meeting him. This is not how I would have begun. Jay's king of diplomacy has forgotten. Yeah. My guy. You secured the Vale. You secured the North. You secured the Crossing. This is not the most despicable way, whether you're in or out on Team Bastard. Not the most despicable way to welcome your new guests. It's not up to you, Ulf. Who's it up to then, boy? Boy?

Insult Prince Jassaris Valerian. Prince Jassaris Valerian right here. Who'd have thought it? He lives here. Didn't count on Hugh coming in with the comedy in the finale. I was struck by how much stronger of a grasp Hugh had on the manner of court, on etiquette. And, you know, we don't know exactly how long Hugh spent with Sarah Targaryen. But at the end of the day, we do know from that scene last week,

that it was at least some of his life. He grew up with his Targaryen princess mom. Targaryen princess mother. Yeah. He is making his scorpions for the crown. Like, he's working for the crown. He's making an appeal to the king in the throne room. He is just simply more accustomed to this than broths a little thin and like, this is thirsty work. Yeah, but let's be clear, Ulf is not even trying a little bit. Right, right.

Did that strike you as in line with what we had... We were going to talk about this movie in the dinner scene later, but let's do it here. A direction of leading the witness. Did this strike you as in line with what we had seen from Ulf, or did this feel a little... I mean, we already talked about this. It feels like a real...

like lovable, you know, cockney sot, you know, who does some questionable things, but, you know, is generally genial to sort of, there's just like a, like,

And I don't fault the performance, but there's just like a sharper edge to him immediately. And I guess we can just say that this is, you know, this is the corrupting influence of the dragon. We talked about this last week and we talked about this throughout the season, this idea of these places or these things as almost Ring of Power, Horcrux-esque, like corrupting influences on a personality and certain, you know, a Boromir is going to fall faster than an Aragorn or something like that. And so like, if...

You know, if the dragon is the one ring in this scenario and then he's just like immediately into greeting, grasping. Right. Give me all the birds you have. This is interesting. I just cannot wait to talk about the little birds. This, I didn't bump, you and Ciara bumped on this a little bit. I didn't bump on it just because it felt to me like, um,

when the wagon of sheep goes by like Ulf shouts after ultimately like soldiers you know like they could have arrested him they could have killed him when he's like sheep for your dragon but not for us and even just like you know the way he's always saying in the pubs and

And then, man, would take my head for it. Like, the sense that we had of him that he was unafraid to say the thing that, whether it's true or he just wants you to think it's bold and brave, like, that you maybe shouldn't say and do. But there's such a difference. But it's certainly a ratcheting up. Nothing prepared me for Rhaenyra standing up at the table and him just, like, talking over her, which was awful.

Shocking. Because, like, they, I mean, Jace is not being exactly welcoming here, but in general, like, they have connected you with a dragon. Yes. I mean, also they shoved you in a pit with 40 plus other people and didn't really care if you lived or died. They all died. So that's true. But, like, you know, they gave you a dragon. They're about to give you, like, they're about to give you a bunch of stuff. They've got new outfits. Yeah, new threads. They're in the tar colors. You know, like, as much quail as you could possibly hope to have.

why would you be hostile towards him like he's more hostile right yeah because he's feeling it he's hot shit like he's yeah but he didn't seem again we didn't spend a ton of time with him but he didn't seem like unkind he was always like

friendly to other people in the like three scenes friendly to other people you know yeah unafraid to call people out but like where's that sort of like walk into the bar everyone knows your name sort of thing for sure why wouldn't you walk into Dragonstone and just try to like charm whoever this boy is you know that is totally fair and valid I think the other part of it of like

In our limited time, we understand that this is a guy who spent his entire life just trying to get other people to give him things. A goblet of wine, a tankard of ale. For sure. You know, in exchange for whatever, like, bold thing he could say at the table. It's a ratcheting up for sure, but it wasn't one that, like,

felt necessarily out of character, but it certainly is quick. I thought your point on Talk to the Thorns about you have just literally a scene or two maybe between and it feels, and then we're not even asking the question at all. It was interesting to me that Hugh, in addition to just the sense of etiquette, because the pitch he made to Kat was like, make you a lady, our station will be improved. He doesn't seem to be focused on that at all right now. He's not like, where's mine? Well, where is Kat?

How did Kat respond? I have to assume that Kat is with her brother in Templeton where she said all season she wanted to go and he was like, I'm going to go to the sewing. But like, is Kat, I mean, we still don't know because you and Ciara seem to think that she was like done done and I was like, but will she feel the same way when he rolls up on a dragon? We'll see. Stay tuned. We'll find out in a couple years. One of our listeners, Mariella, asked why Ulf

And Hugh and Adam, I mean, we already talked about this in terms of Adam, but why Ulf and Hugh are not saying like, why Hugh isn't like, hey, here's who my mom is. Or Ulf is like, hey, here's who I think my dad is. You know, like, would that grease the wheels of...

you know, would that mollify Jace a little bit to know, like, how closely related he is to these people? I think it would probably have, based on the conversation between Jace and Rhea, the opposite effect, where Jace would be even more intimidated by that. But it is a great question. And, like, so what do you think, then? Do you think that that has not happened? Obviously, we know with Adam and Corlys, it has not happened. Neither of them is saying...

He's my dad. He's my son. They're not telling her no or not. A follow-up question is like, if it hasn't happened, has anyone asked them? Right. So has it happened and it's just not on screen? Or is this not a discussion? It would be...

Them not offering it up, odd. Not asking. Yeah. Downright inconceivable to me. Right? But of a piece with inviting everybody in without being like, did you bring your resume and cover letter, which I still have questions about. What's your Enneagram? Have you taken the break to Myers? Are you an ENFP? I have some questions.

What's your love language? Man, I still feel great about the... What a wonderful mailbag question the love language question was in the preseason. That really bore fruit. It could not have been funnier to me that...

Formative early time with Ulf was in part oriented around him boasting about my nephew, Prince Jacerys Velaryon, the rightful heir to the Iron Throne, and then Jace walks in and he doesn't have a fucking clue who he is. I just thought this was incredible. Gets up, hugs him. Jace is horrified. Tossels his hair. Jace is appalled. And then...

Most egregious of all, he says, dragon riders both you and I cut from the same cloth. Now, this is, of course, the exact thing that Jace, this was at the heart of that wrenching plea that Jace issued to his mother. Do not do this thing, right? When you took Harwin Strong into your bed. Remember when Jace said, mongrel? That was brutal. Yeah.

That was horrible. I don't like it. I don't want it. That was horrible. But, like, this was the substance of what Jace was saying to Rhaenyra. And then Ulf is invoking the very seed, the germ, the heart of Jace's insecurity as, let's wrap this around us, a little cloak that unites us. This is the exact thing that Jace feared. Jace is like, there's no us, man.

Yeah, it's very John Mulaney. No, that's the one thing I've been secure about. My hair. No. Man, he redirects, though, by bringing up Sharp Point. He's like, everyone's talking about it. You know Sharp Point. Everyone's favorite city. House Massey. Seed of House Massey. Sacred inheritance. And asks, like, are they ready? Are they taking it seriously? Are they prepared? And, like, you brought up just now the horrid mongrel moment from last episode. I don't know.

I'm in the same place with Jace over these last couple episodes where the way that he's behaving, the demeanor, the way that he's interacting with other people or talking about other people, as a Jace lover, I'm dismayed. Dismayed! But...

The substance of what he's saying is anchored in, I think, a clear view of the board and in reality and in an understanding of maybe how people would respond to something. And so when he's like, if you hinder our efforts through sloth or unreadiness, I will see you hanged in your potty fed to the dogs in the street. I'm like, where did our sweet boy go? But also, it's like, are they ready for this? They gave them dragons and never...

Do you believe in our cause? Will you take this charge and treat it with care? When Rhaenyra is talking at the Dragon's Seed dinner later. She's like, you'll go burn this town and you'll go burn this town. And they're like, wait, what?

I thought this was about getting quail. 30 plus for Tom Bennett, we learned, in the House of Dragons build. I thought I was just here to get a really cool new outfit. Is that not what you recruited me for? Not to jump into that scene. House of Dragons build has been great all season. It's always interesting and illuminating to watch. But for that scene when...

and Clinton. And there's like, we had a lot of takes, so it was like having like a bear. You have to take a bite of food. I had like half a raspberry. And then Tom Bennett is like, I am on my 30th quail. He's like, it's great. I won't have to, you know, feed myself tonight. And then they're, yeah, he's just dying. Remarkable stuff. Yeah. Next season of The House, all the BTS should just be Tom Bennett talking about literally anything. So good. So good.

Joanna, I would like to ask you now to join me on the docks of Driftmark once again, but not for the last time. Did you bring warm broth? And warm bread. I know. Wow. Actually, I wish I had both of those things right now. It sounds delicious.

Where Rhaenyra and Corlys are chatting and where Rhaenyra has some of the same things we were just discussing. Regrets? She has a few. Doubts? She has a few. The new riders are a boon to us, Rhaenyra says, but now that he is done, I cannot erase my doubts. We know little of who they are and what is the strength of their character. Obviously, we talked about this at length last week. She is pleased to know, however, that Corlys...

can offer some character testimonials on Adam. And he provides a positive one, but once again chooses to withhold the information that Adam is his kid. I have to be honest, I did not think we would be waiting until season three for the Alan and Adam are my kids. Yeah. Yeah. Wider reveal. Shocking stuff. Corliss for his part.

Maybe it's like an episode nine reveal of this season. Because that seems right, actually. Corlissus is ready to do some dragon math. Daemon's not here. Someone has to do the dragon math. I always welcome the dragon math, as you know. Tells her, you got to strike quickly. You must crush this beast at its head and before too many days have flown. So he's doing a little of the Olenna to Dany, like, are you a sheep? No, you're a dragon. Be a dragon, right? Act with what you have at hand. Be who you are.

Also this season-long through line of haste and pace and how the different characters are assessing what the right time is to act or to strike. I thought you were going to say this season-long through line of teasing the fact that Darren exists. Well, that as well, because they do a little bit of Team Green Dragon math for us, too. The third brother. Yes, I found this...

So reminding us about Darren and Tessarian and Helena as Dreamfire's rider, important and helpful. Coming out of the sewing, it is important to remind us that it's not actually just Vhagar and Aemon, despite that being the only thing anybody talks about. I found the exposition of this a little clunky. Yes. But helpful to be reminded. Dreamfire. Obviously, we're going to get to Aemon's pitch to Helena later. But is there anything here in terms of just like Rhaenyra's response to this?

She is no warrior. Yeah. Conqueror was king. She is formidable. Still, Helena is no warrior. Yeah. Throughout. Renier has been Helena is an innocent Helena. You know, like. Yes. Only Renier and Allison really agree that Helena is like the good one. We have this quote from Fire and Blood.

doing a little dragon math of their own in Fire and Blood. To Sarian with Prince Darren in Old Town, only two mature dragons remain to defend King's Landing. And Dreamfire's rider, Queen Helena, spent her days in darkness weeping and surely could not be counted on as a threat. That left only Uvegar. Classic history book. Our listener... Weeping? Yeah, in the darkness. Or dispensing many dream dispatches. While also caring for crickets and...

Weaving tapestries. Oh, one of them stopped singing. Our listener, Melissa, asked, do we know how Helena claimed Dreamfire? It is so interesting that she does not seem to enjoy riding a dragon, yet Dreamfire, like, the dragon wasn't hers because they grew up together from the egg. She actually went out and claimed her. We actually scoured through Fire and Blood. We don't have, like, details on how Helena and Dreamfire first hooked up. Right. Just said Helena was younger, 11. Yes. Yeah.

But later, Dreamfire is called Beloved of Queen Helena. So in the book, at least, like, she has a relationship with her dragon. Like, and you can see, I mean, you know, the fan art writes itself of her just, like, sort of, like...

very Luna Lovegood-ily of her visiting her dragon and sort of like murmuring with her dragon. Not like burning innocence with her dragon. Right, exactly. She's not a warrior, but that doesn't mean that she couldn't like enjoy her dragon or ride on her dragon. Her bond is separate from violence. This isn't a fire and blood. And we've seen, we know that she took Dreamfire as her Uber when she went to the funeral in season one. So like she has flown Dreamfire. Yeah.

So there's a difference between I want to fly my dragon to battle and like Viserys is like I don't really like to fly dragons at all. So we don't quite know where I think it's easy I think it's reasonable to assume if you're just watching the show that

Helena doesn't care for her dragon. She never, like, talks about Dreamfire. But yeah, this book, Beloved of Queen Helena, is sort of the morsel that we have from the book. I like to think that she's visiting regularly and they're hanging and communing. Talking about bugs. Bug stuff. And talking about which bugs are still singing. Yeah. But not going to go join Eamon on his...

Burning the jewel of Westeros. Quest to random cities. Yeah. Exactly. Dreamfire, you know? Shout out Reyna Targaryen. Elder Reyna. Yeah. Dreamfire's first rider.

fascinating Fire and Blood character. Fascinating. One of the dragon math nuggets that I loved is that when Laris and Aegon are talking, Laris says that the blacks have seven dragons and Corlys here says six because it's the Daemon swing dragon. You know? Dean Grenier is going to name Daemon her VP candidate. Hot off the presses. Second on the ticket. Do you think Daemon could wield Minnesota nice? That's...

No, I don't think so. Even where we leave Daemon at the end of this episode, I do not think the answer to that is yes. So, despite the sowing, Rhaenyra is still not ready to be queen of the ashes. She says to Corlys, I hope my advantage may be in deterrence. Vhagar has ever been our foremost threat, and she is now overmatched. So we talked a lot last week about...

When you're talking about divine justice and your quest being ordained and I am the chosen one. Do the rest of the pod in that tone of voice. And the look on your face when Vermithor lets you reach out, right? I am right. I will do it. I will succeed. I must. The gods have blessed me. It felt really, really, really crucial and important then to hear Rhaenyra still say,

I don't want to have to kill everyone in order to unite the kingdom and...

act on this burden of the prophecy that I have inherited. You know, back in the season one finale, Rhaenyra was saying, I do not wish to rule over a kingdom of ash and bone. And that is still true. She does not wish that. And later she will say to Mysaria, I don't think my father would have wished that. And so those felt like crucial things to hear Rhaenyra voice on the tail end of the sewing before whatever awaits in two years. Episode nine. Okay. Um...

episode 9 Corlys however has no like compunction he's very much to all then right yes because they finally to all then they finally got the artist formerly known as the sea snake barnacle free yeah boy scraped that last barnacle off the old sea snake which is now called the queen who never was and they are joining the blockade on the morrow which I don't know if you remember is when

The Triarchy said that they were headed to the gullet on the morrow. On the morrow. So how many Hightower weeks until then? We'll find out, but that's what we got. You know, I will just say, in case we don't have time later, when we see Corlys sailing out at the end, the hand of the queen pin, just one, very tastefully. Demure. Yeah, but placed onto his armor. Kirsten could take some notes. That's all. Well, I mean, and Condal pointed this out in the press conference we did yesterday, but like,

Chris and Cole is not wearing his armor at all in this finale. He has stripped off all the... Just the, like, under padding. All the finery, all the office, you know, the symbols of his office. Speaking of symbols, this name. Queen who never was, former niece. This is how she was referred to after not being chosen, right, at the Great Council. I gotta say, it's not the nickname that I would have, you know, cherished wife.

Queen of my heart. Something like that. Not reminding her of the time that... That she was passed over by the realm. That she wasn't chosen. Should it have been something about their frisky sex life? Their spicy bedroom. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I like it. Walk me like a dog. Great. The...

For Corlys' arc, the thematic impact of this, not only what it means to honor Rhaenys publicly in this way, right? Like when Bela went pre-having to get Jace to snap, too, and went to, in the fifth episode, talk to Corlys, right? And said, I wonder if any of them knew it was all for her, the Nine Voyages, all of the glory and splendor in the Hall of Nine. Right.

to put that then out in the front at the fore, right? For everybody to acknowledge and know and understand and see that a character whose the bulk of his life was about his own glory and his own pursuits and his own sense of adventure and achievement. And of course, as was chronicled at length in season one, his own ambition, his obsession with legacy. I was thinking a lot about the conversation that he and Rainice had in the seventh episode of the first season, right?

that scene by the fire, he's talking about this very idea, like you were passed over, right? Tonight of all nights, let us lay aside this falsehood. It is not justice for your wife that drives you. It is your own ambition. It is desire for the throne. If not for yourself, then for the science of your house. I gave up the idea of wearing a crown a generation ago. It is you, Lord Husband, who refuses to abandon this pursuit. And so...

To lean back into that moniker and reposition it as being about her and the things that he has missed and lost and grieves and longs for and not the way he used to think about the queen who never was, which is like, you were robbed, so let's go try to get this for ourselves now. What I think is most interesting inside of this is that this is...

Far and away not the most consequential Corliss scene. That the shift in his character is coming later. Yeah. Ellen. Should we go to Harrenhal? Yeah. I don't want to spend too much time on Sir Alfred Broome here. On your favorite character of the season, Sir Alfred Broome? Let me tell you who I didn't miss. This guy. Did not miss Sir Alfred Broome.

We did get an email asking about his sigil. By the way, broom with an E does not have a sigil in the book anywhere. But there is a house broom with no E that does have a sigil and it is like a...

It's a knight's sort of helm with some flowers growing out of it, and that is what is stamped on his. So they just gave him the house broom with no E. They were like, fuck you, Alfred, you don't even deserve your own sigil. We'll give you one from a different house. Fuck you, Alfred, is my general position on Alfred. He got a sigil. Caraxes is going to get some pigs from Lord Peter Piper. That just sequence made me laugh so much. He prefers the pigs. It just killed me. Great stuff. So, Alfred and Damon.

Damon, clearly very proud to be found in a position of success. What do you think of my army? It's very large, right? Oh, interesting. Rhaenyra felt compelled to check up on me to see what I was doing, what was afoot. He's like, ooh, checkmate. Got it. What did she make of when Alfred asked for a private word, Damon choosing to take him to...

the gods would. This thing that Daemon has resisted and rejected, the magic of this place, the supernatural element of this place, that that is then the spot and the seat that he chooses of his own accord to go to. I think that's fine to read that into it. For me, I think it's more so they could use the set and have the tree whispered traitor to him. I loved that. Than anything else. Did you hear that? Yeah.

I think you could certainly say that Damon feels comfortable everywhere in Harrenhal at this point. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. So that's...

Great. But yeah. The werewood tree also fucking hates Alfred Broome. Yeah. Yeah. The werewood tree is like, I heard you basically make the same sexist speech directly to Raniere's face. Mm-hmm. Alfred, not a fan. It was satisfying to watch him slink away and like shrink back into the crowd at the end. He's like, I gotta get the fuck out of here. Oh, man. I do love that he is taller than everyone else. It's like he sticks out really easily. And I think it's interesting because we've been sort of asking all season, what are Simon Strong's real motivations? Could he possibly be this sort of like

loyal to... Fashion. Fashion. A slave to fashion. Fit lord? No, but like, what is his interest here? Is he playing Daemon? Is he really loyal to, like, you know, and it seems like whatever his enmity towards Larys, which is what his explanation was for why he wasn't fighting Daemon, is translated enough beyond even...

well, let's screw over Laris. It's like, actually, I've decided to take my fidelity to Rhaenyra seriously. And so even if you, Daemon, who I've been like kind of trying to help all season, if I get a whiff, you're about to align yourself with this tall traitor's piece of shit, Alfred Broome, I have a Texas end.

I heard the tree whisper, traitor. They were both standing in front of it. And so, oh man, good stuff. Simon, I will miss him for the next two years. What a time it was with Simon Strong. Iron Rod. Even Iron Rod thinks Simon sucks. Iron Rod thinks everyone sucks.

That's true. That is true. He thinks everyone sucks, and yet when you lose him completely, boy, it's tough. So he just is passing along the like, hey, they all went on boats to the sewing. Eamon's response is not, why didn't my master of whispers tell me this? It is,

Let's make sure we're inspecting all the boats. Let's stop the boats. Let's control the boats. And Iron Rod's like, the people basically are only alive because of the fish from the boats. They're pescatarians at this point. And Eamon says, you know what? They're not going to get to eat anything if they all die.

Do you think that's going to be an effective campaign slogan with the small folk of King's Landing? I love a West Wing walk and talk. And this is a real insight into the political mind that is Eamon. Oh, boy. Okay, so Eamon walking directly from here to Helena's chamber. Yes. Mother. Mother.

I love that, though. He comes and he's like, Helena's like, mother. Mother. Just sort of like extremely tossed off. Great, great moment. But yeah, Alison and Helena are having a mother-daughter moment. Touching exchange. I was happy before I was queen. Yeah. This made me really sad. What did you think about leaving this place? The way that Fia played the where would I go moment.

Right? Where would I go? And that's why I loved it because, you know, you do get the sense that this is the first time, certainly Alison, but really anyone has basically said to Helena, like, what do you want? What would make you happy? Right? And, of course, that makes us think about Alison and her experience, right? That great conversation with Otto in the penultimate episode last season that we talk about a lot. Like, how would I know? How would I know what I want? This is at the heart of what Alison will say to Rhaenyra at the end of this episode. But it's also not something Alison had previously given to Helena. Like, when she went to tell Helena...

about the funeral procession for Jaehaerys in the second episode. And Helena was like, I don't want to do this. Allison's response was not, okay. It was, we have to. Right, because Allison is still operating under this idea of like, whatever the patriarchy says we have to do, that's what we have to do. We are representatives of the throne. We have a duty. Where even then, she was, that clear...

softness for Helena was present because even then she was like, I don't really give a shit that they murdered a toddler. Yes. But what they did to my girl, like what they did to Helena. So as like fucked up as Allison's parenting instincts are and they are, she has always, you know. Absolutely. And that made it more

painful to watch because we could see the care was genuine, but she didn't know how to put that then at the fore above that sense of duty. And that's what shifts here. She says, come to Cabo with me here. How did she land on Cabo specifically? Is that Allison's vibe? I've never been to Cabo. I've also never been to Cabo. Yeah, but you think it's an Allison spot. No, no. Where do you see them really? Like Tuscany maybe? Oh, that's so funny. I was going to say like...

Yeah, like the Amalfi Coast, maybe. Oof. Yeah. Or like the French Riviera. Are they... Are she still handing out invites? I would love to go. Sounds amazing. But I just think, like, her, like, please won't let someone go on a girl trip with me vibe just screams Cabo to me. Screams, like, cocktails in the pool to me. But our listener Natalie was asking why we haven't heard more homesteadians talk of Jahara. Jahara, the child who survived, essentially, like, disappears...

Like, where has she been? We saw her, like, get handed off at one point. Yes, there was a holding and a transfer. Earlier this season, but she's largely been gone. Later in this episode, when she's talking to Rhaenyra, Alyssa does say, I would take my daughter and her child and leave it all behind. So implicit in this invitation to let's go to Cabo, it's like, and bring girls trip. Right. Jaehaerys will be there. Three generation girl trip is what she's interested in. But then, but then, Aemond bungles in. Mother. Mother. Yeah.

Oh, man. Corliss was right to anticipate this move, that Aemond would try, at least try, to get a dream hire. What?

LOL, what? She is much more interested in escaping this conversation and going to bed. Yeah. Wonderful stuff. Doesn't want to fight anyone. Doesn't want to burn anyone. Aemon gets physical, like pulling her, right? He is trying to present this. He's like, this is not a request. This is an order. You don't have the ability to say no to this, actually. I'm Prince Regent, right? Kind of warps this...

insecurity and anxiety and like unmoored sensation that he has now after the sewing into this like savior's pledge, right? They have defiled our birthright, made commoners into dragon lords. It is a sin and must be punished. We love to track whether it's Alison, Kristen, anybody. Like when you use this kind of like cloak of righteousness to justify some ill deed, right?

It was hard, though, not to think of Jace here because this is like kind of what Jace is saying. And I don't think that's an association that Jace would want. Once upon a time, and I'm very proud of this, a lot of the Daenerys Targaryen like stan accounts on Twitter blocked me because totally normal because I did an interview with John Bradley where he called Daenerys. He called Daenerys Targaryen unhinged. And he did so before like it was clear how the show was going to end.

That's on John Bradley, but they decided to blame me. And all I just wanted to let you know is that the day that all these Twitter accounts that are called stuff like Targaryen supremacy blocked me, I'm like, that's a win for me, honestly. I think so. Oh, boy. Targaryen supremacy is this like really popular sort of vibe in the Dany's Dan community. And I just think that like the Targaryen supremacy idea is really coming through here for Aemon and sadly also for our guy Jace. It's really tough stuff.

Jace. Oh, Jace. Allison. Yeah. Defending Helena here. She and Eamon get into it again. They are back in their favorite spot, which is blaming the other one for something that has gone horribly wrong. He blames her for how, in his view, her weakness has led to this circumstance. She blames him for always lashing out and harming innocent people when he is insulted. Right? The eye for an eye. Luke. Burning egg on, which, of course, she doesn't know about, but we do. Short point! Yeah!

Everyone's favorite locale. I think that's where she wanted to go. She's like, get in, girl. Get in, girl. We'll go to the coastal seaside town of Sharp Point. Oh, man. Well, there is room now. There's room. Room in Sharp Point. The desire for vengeance for Amon remains very much intact.

Where is the remorse? Like, where is that remorse that we—when we talked about this so much at the beginning of the season when we saw him curled up with Sylvie and saying in the second episode, I do regret that business with Luke. I lost my temper that day. I am sorry for it. How it felt like because we had been, you know, tracking these mirrors with Aemon and Daemon, and that was something we were getting from Aemon that we weren't getting from Daemon in that episode, right? Like, I cannot be held responsible. Right.

Where is this for Aemond? Is it just stifled below all of these other impulses? Yeah, I think he's calcified it.

Because he opened himself up to Sylvie and then Aegon made fun of him to a point where he's like, oh, that was a mistake. Right. But he doesn't make himself vulnerable again in this episode. Tears in his eyes. Later when talking to Helena. So, like, the capacity for trying to let someone in is still there. He's just very mistrustful of doing so. Wouldn't you make it a fact that he says, who will protect her if she cannot protect herself? Yeah.

And what that reflects about his recalibrated relationship to Helena. Because in the first season, when Agon was being a dickhead and making fun of Helena and saying she's an idiot and all this stuff, Eamon was the one who defended her. And he's not thinking about what she needs or protection or really just like any sort of empathy at all. She is just another potential...

There's a need that he feels, right? Someone stand with me. But she's a chip on the board for him. That's partially true, but I think what's also true is what's different between then and now is that a rat catcher came into her bedchamber and...

Her security is on a different level altogether. Now, like, she is so much more vulnerable than she was even when they were children because they couldn't conceive of this level of exposure overall. They were the royal family. So it's like protecting her from Aegon's, like, shitty teasing versus the larger existential threat of

murderers in the bedroom. And like he says to Allison here, this isn't just about like, are we going to hold on to power? Like our lives, our very lives, would you not have us prevail? What does she say? Not like this. Never like this. Not like this. And then she goes right from this conversation to Orweil to secure passage to Dragonstone. And so while this has been building and budding, she went to Big Bathtub and reflected last episode. This exchange with Aemond and what she sees in Aemond here, final push.

Final push to send her to an era. Helena represents this, like, innocence inside the Targaryen family. It's something, again, they're all agreeing on. Our gentlest soul. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Let's protect the last bit of innocence inside this, like, you know, fierce, bloodthirsty, dragon-riding family. Yeah.

This episode is brought to you by Peloton. You know, for me, fitness has always been about finding that groove, whether it's hitting the pavement outside, which I've been allowed of, or dialing up a sweat session indoors.

Whatever it is, summer just amplifies that drive. It's the prime time season to level up your fitness routine. Peloton gets that. They've got programs that cater to every runner out there. Seriously, 457,000 members have worked out with their running programs. And especially in the summer, if it's super hot, you don't want to work out outside, stay indoors, hit the Peloton. So whether you're training for a marathon or just looking to improve your pace, they've got you covered with everything on the Peloton Tread, Tread Plus, or

or the Peloton app. It's like having your own personal coach with you or right at home in your living room. Call yourself a runner with Peloton at onepeloton.com slash running. This episode is brought to you by Amazon Business. We all need more hours in the day, right? Well, Amazon Business gets it. They've got super smart business buying solutions that make the admin stuff a breeze. That means you can spend less time and buried in paperwork

and more time growing your business. That's pretty smart. Head over to amazonbusiness.com and see what smart business buying is all about.

This episode is brought to you by Vitamin Water. So much of what the world is obsessed with starts out in New York City. It's a place full of style and character that has something for everyone. With a range of flavors to meet any kind of taste, it's no wonder Vitamin Water was born there. Colorful, flavorful, anything but boring, Vitamin Water injects a daily dose of vibrancy into a watered-down life. Grab a Vitamin Water today. Vitamin Water is a registered trademark of Glasso.

Kristen Cole. It's taking Gawain to a poetry slam. I thought the scene was fucking great. I loved it. I absolutely loved it. Kristen is inhaling the favor that he asked for from Alicent in the third episode of the season. He is inhaling, breathing deep, just sitting on his log for all to see. All to see, right? Right. Sitting on it. It's like missing her sitting on his log, and so he is sitting on a log, inhaling. And Gawain is like, please stop.

holding my sister's handkerchief that she kept in her bosom to your mouth and nose in front of our entire army. And so then in front of their entire army, Gawain puts his sword to Kristen's throat. Yeah, again, um...

There's a lot of, as we are constantly encouraging people to have conversations in private, like not actually the Rhaenyra Daemon conversation. I think that was great. That needed to be. Yes. Yeah. I'm so glad that you gentle that and you were like that she kept tucked away and have this very like courtly chivalric language from you. But just for the listeners at home, Molly wrote nip nap to describe this handkerchief. Well. What'd you say? Spot the lie. Tit rag. Tit rag.

Sunday, what did you say? Tit cloth, maybe? Terrible. Titty cloth? I mean, again, it is exactly that. It is. So. Tucked in her queenly. Her decolletage. Gawain is like, Deonata, you think nothing of your oath? And Kristen's like, let me tell you something. It is quite literally.

They make you swear and swear. All I think about and all I talk about. Yeah. It is the only thing I have to my fucking name. That was what he said to Rhaenyra. The white cloak is a symbol of our purity, our fidelity. It's what he said to Aurek. Just couldn't get through the season without missing the card holes once more. I had to do it. Everyone, the sharp point of characters, Aurek and Aurek. Gawain brings up Kristen's origins.

Once again, Gawain never misses an opportunity to say where Kristen is from. God, she's stonish. God, she's stonish. Kidding. Ascent. Threatens to send her to the wall. And Kristen is banking on Gawain not wanting to stain the family name by releasing this scandal out into the wild. Now, there is a part of me watching this scene, a scene I love, that's unlike a lot of people are hearing them talk. How actually did this stay quiet? But that kind of exchange works.

you don't want to say in the family name, does account for how this affair would have not made its way into the histories, which it didn't. So that's interesting. Mushroom was not there. Says Mushroom, who was not there. Who's not there. What does Christian say about what Alicent did?

means to him, represents to him, has been for him. Okay, so he calls her a beacon, which is a very like Hightower sort of language here, of course. Light the beacons. It reminded me of one of my favorite scenes in the perfect film, Sneakers, when Robert Redford is trying to convince this woman to do something and he's like, be a beacon. Be a beacon? Anyway, yeah, she's his beacon. Pretty incredible stuff.

Chris's favorite line of the season, I think, was desire for women has brought me grief after grief. Yeah. Just great stuff. And Gwyn says resist it. Kristen says, oh, well, that it was so simple. And then we are treated to a just remarkable exchange. Before we hear that remarkable exchange, I just want to let you know that

Would that it were so simple inspired Steve and Rahmahony and several other people I know to text me the identical thing. Steve, will you play this clip, please? Would that it were so simple trippingly. Would that it were so simple trippingly. Don't say trippingly, say the line trippingly.

You received multiple text messages on this. We did it. It's so simple. One of the funniest scenes from any movie ever from Hail Caesar with Ralph Fiennes and Hansel himself, Alden Ehrenreich. I think about this all the time. And yes, when this line happened, I literally like...

like a Pavlovian dog like I have Tourette's was like so simple and Steve texted me Rob Mahoney texted me like all gaps two of the greats a bunch of other people messaged me as well but they don't work for theringer.com what a great website you know Ray Fines he's on my list he's a top fiver obviously top fiver all time God's a big good top fiver Steve can we hear it again

Would that it were so simple, trippingly. Would that it were so simple, trippingly. Don't say trippingly, say the line trippingly. Is that an entire exchange in the text? Would that it were, well, I can't remember exactly what Steve texted me. Rob did text me in all caps, would that it were so simple. Steve was like, did you watch the episode? Then you know what we have to do. Like, yeah. Oh, Steve, the commitment to the soundboard. Remarkable. All right, so do you want to hear something from this actual episode of television that we're talking about? Let's do it. Do they? Do they?

Perhaps they do. Or perhaps all men are corrupt, and true honor is a mist that melts in the morning. That is a bleak philosophy. I have no philosophy. Or rather, my philosophy was this, to protect the righteous and dispense justice on the rest. But now, you saw what I saw. The dragons dance, and men are like dust under their feet, and all our fine thoughts, all our endeavors are as nothing. We march now toward our annihilation.

I loved this. Should we go now to Nihilism Nook, as Steve Alden has branded it in a break that we had that you didn't see? Steve just broke into the room, barged in. Nihilism Nook? What I found out after I took my phone off of Do Not Disturb is he had also slacked it to me. I apologize, Steve. I'm not looking at my slack right now. But yeah, Nihilism Nook. We go now to Nihilism Nook. I like it. I like it. Oh, God.

Great stuff. Thanks, John. The team, the soundboard, the graphics. My goodness. Joanne and I were riveted by the scene. I loved it. I would like little webisodes of like the daily Kristen and Gawain travel logs. I just think these scenes are incredible. This is what I'm saying. You just have to check in with someone when they're on the road. Kristen, perfect point of view character for this kind of shift, right? Going from the hubris of thinking he could set things

events into motion, could control the outcome and then transformed by his experience at Rook's Rest into this just like complete and total sense of insignificance. We heard him say to Alicent in that great courtyard scene, we have given the war to the dragons, a dragon rider should lead us. We saw that PTSD, the way he talked about the battle. We could feel him working through it. But to give like the dragon's dance line to Alicent,

A regular guy who's not a writer and is on the ground looking up and then looking around him at the carnage felt like such a perfect choice. And when they were prepping for Rook's Rest and he had this great secret plan and he was so proud, the way he talked about death was like,

Nothing can touch me, right? When Gawain was like, grown tired of living, have you? And he said, are you afraid, sir? Worse, I'm rational. We advance. That was what, remember that was what I was like, is he like speaking differently? Like there was this nothing can touch me. I have figured out how to rule the world and run the game. And now...

He's yearning for the grave because he doesn't think he has a place in the world, in this world, that he helped to usher in. I love this. This is across the board what is happening to these characters, right? Like, Aemon thought he was invincible until he, like, saw with very good eyesight many dragons in the far distance.

Or, you know, Damon thought he was the king shit of everything until he touched a tree. And we'll talk about that. You know, like, we're all... A lot of ghost therapy before we touch the tree. It's true. So a multi-step process. No, but touching the tree was... Was part of it. I also really like when he says, at the beginning of this clip we just heard, do they, perhaps they do, perhaps all men are corrupt and true honor is a mist that melts in the morning. Yeah.

what Allison said to him in that courtyard. Well, one of several courtyards, which said to him is, has your loyalty faded or does it flourish only at night and flee the sunrise like a moth? You know, it's like very similar. He's taking that seriously where it's like, for me, I was tempted to sort of roll my eyes. I'm like, what did you really expect? But for him, he's like,

I mean, he genuinely does care about Allison, which is not... I mean, I knew that he sort of had this, like, obsessive cleaving to her, you know, that he felt. But, like, this idea of...

Some sort of twisted romance is there for him. And yeah, and the fact that he is like taking seriously her accusation of betrayal. For me, I was just sort of like, what do you expect? Like, really? You expected like these assignations, random assignations that you're having to result in some sort of like loyalty. And he's kind of like, oh, they make you swear and swear. Like if I swear, if I swear enough to her, if I have some sort of loyalty to her or to Alicent.

Who, you know, as he says, is his beacon, spared him so many times, all this other stuff. Right. And if that runs counter to the good of the realm, who I'm supposed to be protecting, which again runs counter to the desires of the ruler who I'm supposed to be the hand of. I don't like putting him in a Jamie Lannister box at all, but here we are.

Chris Ryan, if he ever listens to this podcast, which he doesn't. I don't think you should listen to The Watch if he doesn't listen to House of R. He sometimes listens. It's like an even trade. Two hours of The Watch per week, nine hours of House of R per week. I think it's the same level of investment. I love that point about the tie here across characters and tracking that shift in how characters are seeing their role in the story and who's in the...

What's the point of any of it? Right. Who's in a, there is a point, but it's a different. Right. I have a different relationship to it than I thought, Damon, or I want my relationship to it to be different than I thought, Allison. Allison, get the fuck out of this story. This is my story to like, craft, Raniere. It's fascinating. Bela. Let's do it.

I thought this Bela Jay scene was great. I thought the prior Bela Corliss scene in terms of what Bela was saying. I want more time with Bela. I've really loved these like, need you to get it together perspective moments. It's great. Again, I would like her to do more than just walk around and tell sad men to snap out of it. But she's very good at it. She's incredibly good at it. Wonderful at it. It does have a fit of Prince to pout. I'm not pouting. What would you call it then? I'm reading. What is this?

That does not make me common. I loved that. One of the all-time deliveries. Bethany is just like really good in this. Oh my God, that was fantastic. Or you, right? It does not make me common. Or you. And I just really am loving the scenes where, you know, we've talked a lot about in our House of the Dragon coverage over many years now. Coming up in three years. Just a couple months away. Yeah. First week of October. Yeah. Also your birthday. Yay!

What is passed down? Yeah. What is inherited? And so I really continue to love these scenes where the younger generation is processing, like, well, I'm going to decide what my relationship to this is. Yeah. Right? And so while, like, again, a lot of, like, Jace's insecurities are born out of something real, for her to say to him, like, you don't, yeah, you've been hearing this all your life, but, like, you don't need to let it be true. Right?

And for her to have, like, that declaration to Corlys about Rhaenys and her purpose, and now what Baelish's purpose will be in helping Rhaenyra fight for the throne. Just really like that. I miss Moondancer. I was hoping we'd get to see Moondancer again. Gorgeous dragon. Take Baelish to Harrenhal. Well, that brings us to our next scene, because it...

It's time for dinner with the dragon seeds. Rhaenyra's got the crown on. Very formal. This is like a really fun little scene that was in a lot of the trailers that those of us who knew who the dragon seeds were were like, there's Hugh, there's Ulf, there's Adam. It's a dragon seed dinner. Oh, man. And do you remember how via tricky editing in the trailer they made it seem like Daemon was there? But in fact, the person at the head of the table is Ulf. More wine. And more of those birds. Bring me those little birds. Uh...

I have, so Rhaenyra stands up to toast, interrupted by Ulf and the request for the birds. I thought it was so weird, so weird that in her toast, Rhaenyra went out of her way to remind them all that they were lowborn. Just fucking bizarre choice for Rhaenyra. Someone needs, I thought Jace was the diplomat of the family, but he's really falling down here. So, I mean, Bela did get him to come to dinner, and that's nice. It's true. I love that little moment where he's like, and she's like,

You're a little bird. I have entrusted you with the power only few have known, Rhaenyra says, and I charge you to take it up with fealty and respect. Serve me well and I will make you knights of the realm. So this is what we were talking about earlier. Has a moment transpired offscreen that we didn't see where they actually swore fealty to Rhaenyra? Or is it just like assumed? Because Rhaenyra said to Mysaria, but in the Highborne houses there is an ancient fealty, there is honor. This was like part of her concern. Her classism, yeah.

Which was like, yeah, there was a prejudice and something like that made us feel icky there. But there was the practical. What does it mean? They make you swear and swear. What does it mean to make somebody swear and swear? Yeah. Do you think that happened here and we didn't see it or has that not happened? I don't know. Wild. I don't have a good answer for you. Will we find out in episode nine? I mean, yeah. Stay tuned next week.

We'll be back. Episode nine. Joanna, they don't have to do. They only have two more episodes this season. There's a lot to do. I can't. Stop. It's too painful. Okay. Speaking of two, though. Yeah. Sadly, we don't actually have two more episodes left this season, but they have, according to Rhaenyra, two days. Two days. To train. To train. Listen, if people are going to be on the gullet on the morrow, then you got to be ready on Dragonback. Yeah.

In two days. Two days. Okay, what's the plan? What does Rhaenyra want to do here? She wants to go to Lannisport. Lannisport, if you couldn't figure out by the name, that is where the Lannisters are from. And it's a port. And Oldtown, the seat of the Hightowers, right? Is there a beacon there? No.

Be a beacon. Annihilate the strongholds of the usurper. Force to surrender. Everyone seems stressed out by this. Even Bela, who, like, loves to fuck shit up on Moon Dancer, seemingly. She's like, do you want us to kill him? It's not Jace, though. Jace is like, do I get to finally go out into the field? Jace doesn't know that maybe he's not invited. Okay. We got, I thought, a reasonable email from our listener, Emily, who says, okay, I'm confused.

Rhaenyra has seven dragons right now. The greens have three, but really like one. Tessarian hasn't gotten there yet and Helaena is not a warrior. Why is Rhaenyra attacking Lannisport in Oldtown? Why does she even need armies anymore? Am I missing something? She doesn't need battles. We saw at Rook's Rest that when dragons fight the land armies, the land armies become virtually irrelevant. Why does she just fly her seven dragons against Vhagar and kill her and Aemond?

Aegon will certainly be easy to kill even when he returns. Take your throne. All the people who swore to Aegon will bend the knee against seven dragons. There's your deterrent. Why have any battles? Why burn cities? This feels like the same Daenerys writing nonsense where she had too big an advantage. They had to come up with reasons for her not to just win. And I kind of agree. I don't have a good rebuttal to that email from Emily.

It's a very reasonable question, sketched out in compelling fashion. I guess the answer would be, as is also at play when Rhaenyra and Alicent share their scene at the end of the episode, and Rhaenyra is like, you gotta let me kill your kid, right? You gotta let me take Aegon's head. Rhaenyra is thinking not just...

Oh, the boy one? Okay. Okay. All right. Okay. My dad did tell me this was probably going to happen. Otto said this would. Yes. Huge, like, L for, obviously, like, Team Green that Allison agrees to that. But you know that, like, Otto's like...

Oh, rotting in his own shit in his cell somewhere. You are really covered in your own shit, as Jamie told us. Boy. Rhaenyra is thinking about not just what is required to take the throne, but to keep it. And I think that is... I think that's reasonable. Reasonable. I think there's just...

Were I. If you take the throne, what is going to stop those armies from coming to challenge you to take it back? Your seven dragons? Well, dragons aren't there. If they kill Vhagar. We do see. Just aren't younger than Vermax. I mean, listen, with apologies to Rhaenyra, a character I love, Vermax is not the little fucking hatchling that Rhaenyra thinks he is.

How far do you think Daeron the Daring and Tesarian are getting against seven dragons? It would be Vhagar and Tesarian. No, they're going to, the first order of business, kill Aemond and Vhagar. I mean, at that point, I think Tesarian would have a really tough time. This is like we got the email a few weeks ago.

asking why well okay like yeah when Egon kind of like ooh I'm just gonna have Vaemon go burn the blockade and we got that email that was like but why don't they and like after Maelys died yeah before the red sewing yeah

I was thinking about that email again. It's like, why didn't Aemond and Vhagar just burn the blockade? Like, why didn't that happen? There are, I mean, there are always going to be questions like that in a story like this, right? And sometimes the answer is like, because we have more story to tell. But again, I think that's why we had to have the like, Corlys Rhaenyra, you're forgetting about this dragon and you're forgetting about this dragon. And because like... But Corlys is like, go take it. And she's like, I don't want to burn shit. And then she's like, let's burn Lannisport and Oldtown.

Yeah. Okay. This was not the part of the episode that I thought made the most sense. We all agree, Emily. The last part of an all-down plan. Okay. Certainly not. Speaking of Vhagar, Adam asks about Vhagar. We are treated to an incredible exchange starring our guy, Ulf. I'll take him on myself. Silver wings are go as she is. We're afraid of nothing, even if you are. There will be time enough to see which one of us is a coward.

I said more of these little birds. A knight will comport himself with grace at the queen's table. Best make me a knight then. You forget yourself, friend. Sense of humor, do you all good? Oh man, you can really hear the scoff. I've never heard a better vocalized scoff in my life.

This is remarkable. Scarf the Sot. Sir Laurent. Wow, I hope that sticks. Scarf the Sot. Scarf the Sot. Rolls trippingly off the top. Sir Laurent reaching for the pommel of his sword as this happens. Best make me a knight, then. I'm sure this will all be fine. It seems like this is all going to be fine. Everything's going well. You know, Rhaenyra having to confront the fact that she, again, has given this world-shaping power to people she does not know...

Feels important. I can't wait to see how this all impacts what's coming in episode nine. Girardi's watching. Stop! Oh, my God. I'm anticipating now a moment where at like 5.57 Pacific on Sunday, you text me like, Can't wait. You're hyped for episode nine? I'm going to set myself an alarm to do exactly that. Girardi's comes in. Yeah. Simon's text has arrived. Treachery.

She's like, let's take Adam. Yeah. And I was like, why did she take Adam? Especially because it shows them flying there and then we literally don't see Adam. Right, Adam circling. Right, and your question was, why didn't she take Ulf? That's not what I said. If I smack me, I know it then. That's not what I said. Take Bela. But our listener Anders was like,

Damon doesn't know or hasn't at least seen with his own two eyeballs and Damon is definitely the kind of guy who needs to see the thing with his own two eyeballs about the red sewing. You might have heard that

Runear did this, but he hasn't seen it. And so seeing Adam on Seasmoke, Seasmoke, a dragon that he fought with in Stepstones, is like a big, like, look what I did moment. So sure, I would still also take Bela and Moondancer, his daughter. That was actually the other, because I also, we were both on Sunday, like, wait, why not take Bela? The daughter part is actually then what made me think, like, oh, well, maybe not, because

Even though we've heard Bela say to Jace this season, like, you know, I think maybe I hate him. Yeah. It is still her dad. And Rhaenyra asking Bela to fly into potential dire conflict against her own father. Like, Rhaenyra doesn't know what the outcome of that meeting is going to be. So that might be, like— This idea that Adam is, like—

the most loyal of the dragon seeds thus far, right? Quick to bend the knee. I mean, he was trying, but he's tainted by association, right? And so, like, Adam being the most loyal and also more dispensable than her precious actual blood kin. Jace is always not fucking invited. Not invited. Jace leaning in when you're already so sick. You

He just wants to be included. Sorry. It does make me sad. Not invited. I do have some book spoiler thoughts about some missed opportunities here. Well, exciting. Which I will lay on you next week. Stay tuned. I frankly can't wait. Will you be here in the studio with me at that point? No, but Preston will be here. Sweet Preston. Preston, you're not taking Preston with you? No, I am. But wouldn't it be really funny if you showed up and it's just like you looking at Preston who's sitting here?

Preston. I think Joey would like that for content reasons. I'll miss Preston. I will not be here either. I'll be home in pajamas. But I'll see you on Zoom. Can't wait. I'll miss this set. Okay. You know who will see us wherever we are? David Targaryen, Alice Rivers, the Green Man, Brandon Rivers. No.

Let's go to the godswood. Let's go back to Harrenhal. This is when Daemon finds Alice perched on his bed, as you noted earlier. She seems very emotional. You were asking about this on Talk of the Thrones. Any further thoughts on what might be driving this response in Alice here? So my first instinct was like, she was like, oh no, the jewel of the realm, Sharp Point, has been burnt to the ground. And I can hear the screams on the way to the throne.

Oh, man. That was my first thought. Or like, you know, she knows they're all going to war soon because that's how the episode ends. People are going to die, something like that. But I do think there's just something inherent in being able to see many things which Alice can do, which Helena can do, and we know that she is often in an emotionally fragile state that just leaves you constantly vulnerable to...

being blindsided by emotion, the ghost of the high heart, which is a figure who has dreams and visions in A Song of Ice and Fire. Yeah.

Here's a quote. She's talking to Arya. The dwarf woman studied her with dim red eyes. I see you, she whispered. I see you, wolf child, blood child. I thought it was the Lord who smelled of death. She began to sob, her little body shaking. You are cruel to come to my hill. Cruel, I gorged on grief at Summerhall. I need none of yours. Be gone from here. Dark heart, be gone. Summerhall? Oh, yeah.

Oh, yeah. Again, something we don't talk about because of Dunkin' Egg. I don't know. Whatever. Jenny of Old Stones. That is associated with the...

I just fucking love that scene so much. That's Mallory's impression of Podrick singing Jenny of Oldstones in one of the best episodes of Game of Thrones that ever happened. Beautiful episode. But like this idea that the ghost of High Heart, a figure who is seen a lot,

and can see into the future and experience a bunch of grief and sorrow is actually kind of constantly crying while she's giving her dreams and premonitions and stuff like that. So the fact that like Alice, I mean, I would love, today, we're recording this on Tuesday. Today is the day where a lot of cast, like the embargo, talking about the finale is up and they're talking to a lot of press. So I'll be very curious if Gail Rankin like gave any kind of interview where she talks about this. So I hope someone asked her. But I don't know and I want to know. Why are you crying, Alice? Me too.

Can't wait to spend more time with Alice. Great character. But if it's Ghost of High Heart shit, something we were really bummed to have cut from Game of Thrones, that's cool. This is the moment that Alice decides Damon is ready. He's graduated from ghost therapy. To receive this vision. Yeah. Time to put his grimy little paw on a werewood tree.

His nails are crusty. It felt like payoff after all of our many hours of breaking down frame by frame the trailers. Like, whose finger is that? Whose ring is that? Whose nail bed is that? You know? If it's crusty and dusty, it's Damon Targaryen. Joanna, Alice leads Damon to the Harrenhal Godswood to the Weirwood, where in the distance, behind the Weirwood, we see a green man.

Clip. Clop. It's truly legendary that Chris Ryan didn't even notice that this... What's funny is the first time that I watched... We freaked out! The first time that I watched the episode, I think I was looking down for a second and I just heard the clip clock. And then I looked up and there was nothing and I was like, what was that? And I rewound and I was like, oh my god! And then you saw the antlers and you're like the fucking green man of the Isle of Faces! Bran was always saying that old man told him they had antlers!

Did this guy have antlers by any chance? He's like, he hears about cold hands. He's like, did he have antlers by any chance? Could he be a green man? So yeah, Harrenhal's here. God's eyes right here. Big lake. And the middle of the lake is an island called the Isle of Faces where like... Where what's aplenty. Very few men are capable. It's like bloody Brigadoon out there. You can't get to the Isle of Faces if you're a human. It's where...

The Children of the Forest and the First Men made a pact of, you know, let's stop killing each other and destroying this world. And as a result of the pact, the Green Men sort of stay behind on this mission.

Spooky, ooky island full of weirwood trees to protect. Yes. But apparently they have day passes out to Heron Hall. I love this. One of the first times we hear about the Green Men in A Song of Ice and Fire is when Meera and Jojen Reed are talking about their father, Howlin' Reed. And this is the story of the Night of the Laughing Tree, which takes place...

Where? Harrenhal. Tourney of Harrenhal. And we talked earlier this season about like... This is the best. This idea that like Rhaegar and Lyanna and everything that happens at the tourney at Harrenhal, which sets off the events of...

Game of Thrones, that war, all of Robert's Rebellion, et cetera, et cetera, that that was somehow the machinations of the Weirwoods, the Green Men, the Children of the Forest. Is Alice Rivers a Child of the Forest in disguise? Is she a... Like, does she have antlers? Is she a green...

man person in disguise does she clip-clop when she walks through the halls of Harrenhal I don't know it's all it's all potentially very juicy I love this so much love I'm just thrilled yeah this is incredible incredible to see a green man incredible to have any reason to talk or think about the tourney at Harrenhal did any smiles die here between Alice and Damon I love I love I love

I love a dying smile. I mean, I know that George doesn't want them to do a Robert's Rebellion story, but I have always... Actually, back in the day... I badly want it. Really early, like before I was like really covering Thrones and Ernest, Ernest, my friend was like a claymation artist and I was like, we should do a like claymation Night of the Laughing Tree sort of. I think I was definitely thinking of like...

The Deathly Hallows, sort of like that whole animated sequence or something like that. But like that, but Night of the Laughing Tree. And then I think there have been like animated versions, but I want the full Night of the Laughing Tree, Turnie and Harrenhal treatment. I love this stuff so much. Here's what Alice says to Damon. When you came here, you were a cool stress. You wish to bend the world to your will. But you've discovered, I think, that this world will not be governed by...

There are omens here for those who seek them. You do not scoff? I'm no longer inclined to. I'm pleased to hear it. Do you wish then to learn what is given to you? All your life you've sought to command your own fate, but today you are ready. That's so good.

The Vision score kicking in. My goodness. I was about to say, like, the score, the way the score is, yes, the Vision score from Game of Thrones, but also through the wash of this, like, almost like 80s high fantasy sort of synth-y sound to it. Yeah.

We should say the House of Dragons Season 2 soundtrack is on Spotify or wherever you listen to your soundtracks. Ramin Djawadi has dropped the tracks, which means we can overanalyze track names if we choose to. Oh, exciting. Great. Yeah. Love to do that. Love to do that. Okay. There's some interesting language there that we want to break down. Close fest. Close fest. When you came here, you were close fest. Sorry. Okay.

Just thought I would piss off Scotland while we're here. Yeah, we were talking about Harrenhal as this grasping hand reaching towards the sky. So, yeah. Great stuff. Gotta open that fist up. Wonderful. There's some other language there that I want to circle back to when we just talk about, like, the role of prophecy and free will and what this means for Damon, what this means for Broadley, et cetera. But why don't we go through what Damon sees, and then we'll talk about...

Some of the big picture stuff here. Obviously, we're going to talk about all of this again in the book look ahead. We'll parse it. I think here we'll mostly like mention what we see. We'll talk about a few things and then, yeah, we're going to parse it a little bit more in the book look ahead next week. Okay, here's what Damon sees. First of all, you don't have to look at the filthy hands because the bloody sap. Yeah. You thought it couldn't get dirtier and then it's good to get that goop out of his ring. Oh, I wanted to ask you on the goop front.

Exciting, yeah. He killed someone in front of this werewood tree. Yeah. Last week. Yeah. Do you think that's the blood goo of Willem Blackwood? Well, when we first port Ben into the vision and we're seeing the blood kind of seeping out of the roots, the idea that the blood that drenches the ground is like soaked up. Feeds the tree. And this wide connection across the map and the world. Wonderful stuff. So the three-eyed raven.

Brennan Rivers is in that tree. This is obviously the, this is Bran's eventual location, destination in Game of Thrones, a little television program that you might have heard of. I'll be out of it, Lods. We haven't said I'll be out of it, Lods, in a while. It's time to get back into rings of power shape, you know? The tree beyond the wall. Bloodraven. Brennan Rivers. I freaked out.

Oh, yeah. I, like, freaked out. And with, like, the book accurate... He does have two eyes, but the book accurate birthmark was just wonderful. They're straddling two things. So we've seen Bloodraven played by three different actors at this point, right? And at some point, we'll definitely have another. So we saw this, like... I'm afraid I don't know his name, but an older bearded gentleman was playing him in, like, Visions and, you know, You Will Fly and all this other stuff like that. And when Bran, like, first arrives. Yeah, You Will Fly. But, like...

And then they're like, it's very much the like Wayne's World. Can we get a better actor in here? No offense to that bearded man. I don't know him. But then they got Max von Sydow to play Brennan Rivers. And it was so cool. They did not put the birthmark on him in either of those iterations. The birthmark is here, which is supposed to be shaped like

a raven. It's a red raven, which is why they call him Blood Raven. Jo, question for you. How many eyes does Blood Raven have? A thousand eyes and one. He only has one eye. So I think it's interesting that they gave him a book-accurate birthmark. Yeah. But two eyes when he's supposed to have one eye. Maybe they thought if they gave him one eye, people would be like, is that Amon? You know what I mean? Interesting. They would be confused. Yeah. I did ask Ryan Condal, because I looked at this guy, and this guy is like a...

dancer slash theater guy and I think he's I can't remember quite he's like Finnish perhaps or Icelandic something like that very Nordy but it was like one of those things like when they cast that guy for Rhaegar and they cast someone who's just sort of like you know

I was just sort of like, okay, that's all we're going to see of Rhaegar. Do you know what I mean? And it's sort of like, that's what it feels like here. So I asked Condal, I was like, because we're getting a Night of the Seven Kingdoms, this spinoff TV show, which is set in a time when Brynden, later than this, Brynden is not alive right now. Yeah, this is future. So he's seeing the future.

You know, because he's about to see Daenerys. He's seeing the future. But Britain Rivers should be in that spinoff show. Oh, yeah. I can't imagine they would do it without him.

And I was like, is this the actor? And Condal's pretty much like, no. Right. They're going to cast their own person for that. So that's going to be actor number four. Will he have a birthmark? Who knows? Will he have two eyes? Who knows? You know, like, we'll find out together. Oh, boy. But this is huge. This is really exciting. It's very exciting. Really, really fun. We then wolf-org toward a White Walker in the Army of the Dead. This didn't look great.

I'm just going to say that. The warg effect or the White Walker? I just think they did not look like as top tier as they did in later Seasons of Thrones. And I might have just kept them in like the distance. Or I actually don't know what kind of access they have to...

from Thrones. Because like, you know, I like the way that they did Daenerys. We'll talk about Daenerys in a second. But like, with the White Walkers, I might have just used like footage that already exists of the White Walkers. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Get our guy the Night King in here. But again, I don't know, you know, and why not give us a, well, it wouldn't have been so cool to see the shadow of a dragon over King's Landing because they're like, it's a Tuesday. Yeah.

But that was like the constant shot in the brand vision. It was. Speaking of dragons, we see some dead ones here. Yeah. We see a dead dragon in the foreground. We see what appears to be like the tattered wings of another dead dragon behind. In the concept art, like the storyboarding in House of the Dragons built, we got to see the storyboarding for this and there were so many. So many dead dragons. So many.

many dead dragons. And so we should say, again, without getting into book spoiler stuff, I think what is canonically true in dreams involving dragons inside of George R. R. Martin's writing, dead dragons can sometimes just mean dead Targaryens. Correct. Now I'm thinking about a thing I love. Yeah. It's really hard for me not to get excited. Say anything right now. Demon.

Walking over just like a ton of dead soldiers. Their bodies are just in the water. Floating to the bloody water. Yeah, feeding the fish there. Damon pulled beneath the water. The red comet. Red comet means one thing, boy. Dragons. That's not what it sounds like. What just happened? What? Watch her, Harry.

Watch her, Harry. Oh, man. The comet. I'm going to talk more after we get through this, like, about, just again, prophecy more broadly. But the way the right comment was to point in the story is always one of the fun and effective things to point to. It was like, everybody's got their own interpretation of what this means, right? Signs and reportage. Signs and reportage? Reportage and signs? Danny's eggs in the fire. Yeah.

Daenerys Targaryen, the unburnt with three baby dragons in her arms. Lamentably, no Jorah. Blood of my blood. Dragons and magic returning to the world. Jo, you spoke to... Yes. ...Brian Condal about what we saw and what we didn't see in this area in particular. What would you like to share with us here? Well, I had noticed that. Yeah. People online were being very normal. Yeah.

About the fact that Jon Snow wasn't in this vision, right? And the question was, if this is adjacent at all to Aegon's dream, does that mean, since we're only seeing Daenerys, that she is the prince that was promised? Saying who was that? The prince that was promised. Because our understanding walking out of Game of Thrones as a TV show is that the prince that was promised is some sort of hybrid of Jon and Dany, right? Yeah.

Pronouns are tricky. And I have a lyric. But there are some people who really believe that Jon is and some people who really believe that Daenerys is and would rather not, you know, combine the two. Anyway, so I asked, like, does the absence of Jon Snow mean anything? Yeah.

Yeah. And this is what Condal said. He says, Sister wives. Which is the height of its power and its self-destruction in terms of this Shakespearean tragedy that we're experiencing. You know, the dance...

of the dragons, the dying of the dragons, as we know from Fire and Blood. We don't know how exactly the events play out in this history, but we do know at the end of it, there are no dragons left in this world until they were born to Daenerys in the end. And I think that is the interconnectivity. And so he was saying, like, Jon Snow not being there had, like, it never crossed their mind that that was any sort of, like, weighing in one way or another on the prophecy. He's like, that...

You know, and this is true, the TV show made a decision. George R. R. Martin has not written in the books yet who the prince that was promised was. And so Condal's like, that's George's story to tell? TV Land only where Arya stabs the Night King. TV Land only where the Night King exists. I don't mean to be all jace about it, but I'm just saying, okay? Here's what we see next. Iron Throne. Empty. Empty. And then, Iron Throne.

Rhaenyra sitting on it, crowned, fire kind of like gleaming, reflecting off the crown. There's that light. The light in the scene reminded me of the way that Rhaenyra is lit during Viserys' long walk. That almost like, again, kind of like chosen, right, light. Yeah.

Interesting to me in consecutive scenes to pair glimpsing Rhaenyra on the throne, as Daemon does here, with what Helaena says about Aegon. I know, I love that. In victory. I mean, there's a lot that I didn't like about that, but I liked it. Like, here we have a prophecy that's like,

Rhaenyra's going to sit on the throne, and then we have Helena uttering a prophecy of a sort that says Aegon's going to sit on a wooden throne. Okay, before we get into Helena invading a dream here, dreamwalking wild, that was so cool. Something that they said in the behind the scenes is this idea that Daenerys is the direct descendant of Daemon and Rhaenyra. So this idea of showing what I love about this, and again, we'll get into this like...

a bit more in the book section that we do next week. But like, I think this is so smart if you're a werewitry and you're deciding what to show Damon to get him invested in the future. It's like the future, scary eyes zombies, red comets and scary eyes zombies and dead dragons are all coming. This is all calamity. Winter's coming. You get to say the catchphrase in a scene soon. It's exciting. But here's what your personal lineage is.

is involved that sort of plays into his ego which is this idea of like yeah you know it's not just any Targaryen that needs to be on the throne right decide for ourselves whether or not that feels actually true yeah given what we know what happens in Game of Thrones but yeah that's interesting too in terms of in the context of Daemon kind of like willfully receding after this you're a small part of the bigger picture but the bigger picture is still about you and your family yeah

Helena. Here she is. Bleeds in from reality. It's all a story. And you're but one part in it. You know your part. You know what you must do. You know that Tyrion will say in the Game of Thrones finale, there's nothing in the world more powerful than good story. Nothing can stop it. No enemy can defeat it. I think it's so cool to see a dragon dreamer

Helena inside a green seeing dream that's like such a cool blurring magic mashup magic mega mix Condal described in the magic medley yeah I love it Steve is probably slacking a better idea to us right now um

Condell described this sort of green-seeing magic. He says this idea in the press conference we did on Monday, he said, this idea of earth magic or green magic, whatever is going on in the Riverlands, those kinds of ideas were presented to Damon over the course of the season that he could now no longer deny. I like this idea of the, I don't know that I've ever heard anyone describe it as like earth magic. Yeah.

You know, like, green seeing is definitely a thing and blah, blah, blah. But to think of it as earth magic, to think of the, like, the dank, like, soil of the Riverlands, like that shire, that good, you know. Rivermen are mud. Yeah, like, that earth magic versus the fire magic versus the ice magic, you know. But, like, where's that wind magic? Get the airbenders in here. But, yeah, like, thinking of them as, like, Alice Rivers practices earth magic. I kind of like that idea. I love it.

Okay, let's talk about some of the big picture takeaways from this. Tying the story more directly. Yeah. To a Game of, not just a Game of Thrones, but to a Game of Thrones ending that we know and broadly do not like. Do not like.

How are you feeling about this? You know, we discussed this on Sunday a little bit. We've talked about this from the series premiere, you know, that opening title card, you know, years until Daenerys. Yeah. Introducing this idea of Aegon the Conqueror's dream, which was not in the book. That was new to us. This, like, tie to the prince that was promised. Yeah.

We were going to, as soon as those choices were made, we were going to keep getting moments like this. Also, it is definitionally a prequel, and it is about the Targaryen dynasty. So this key occurrence in the future of the Targaryen dynasty, of course, will be connected to the show. But something this direct. Yeah. A vision where we see the White Walkers. Where we see Dany and the dragons. How are you feeling about that specific nature of a tie? The White Walkers almost more than Daenerys, like, sort of feels...

We got a ton of emails about this, actually. Thank you. But I'll just go for a few. My elbow cracked. Oh. That's how many emails. That's how you know we got a lot of emails. Jeez. And then I need to get out more and just move my body more. That's also how you know that. You've been tremendously ill. As Logan Roy once said, I have been incredibly unwell. You have been convalescing. Okay. All right.

Our listener Ismael wrote, I was completely taken out of it as it harkened back yet again to Game of Thrones. It's lackluster eighth season and that damn prophecy. And Sean says, I think one of the things that isn't connecting for me with a vision slash prophecy driving Rhaenyra being the thing which brought Daemon back is the execution of the Night King storyline in Game of Thrones. The rushing of that storyline and it feeling anticlimactic and pushed to the side makes it feel like the whole prophecy and event driving these main characters actually wasn't that big a deal.

I think one of our listeners wrote in and was like, it all is taken care of in a night that I couldn't see very well. You know what I mean? It's just sort of like reminding us of an episode of television that we didn't love. And then it's sort of like... And the more monumental event actually feels like Daenerys burning down King's Landing, which is an interesting, you know, like subversion of expectations or whatever. But it's just sort of like this idea. I kind of actually perversely like that. Okay. Tell me why. Because...

There's a part of us, like, watching this and being like, okay, they have this idea that they need to be in power. I mean, first of all, there isn't a Targaryen sitting the Iron Throne when all of that goes down. So that's a question. But, like, that they need to be in power. Or, as Daemon says later, they need to unite the realm. Right. And that is what happens to take down the Night King. So, like, that they need to unite the realm in order to take on this threat is...

true, largely true, but us knowing how that all plays out in the end and how sort of, it's not a false prophecy, but it's sort of a misleadingly overly important prophecy, I suppose, because wouldn't it be nice to also have a prophecy about Daenerys burning down King's Landing? You know what I mean? Like, I...

Because there's that push and pull we've talked about where it's like, yes, it's the nature of prequel. Yeah. But would this story be more interesting if we didn't know whether or not the prophecy was true? Right. And what I kind of like is that it's both true and not at the same time. Yeah. Okay, so let's talk about that idea more broadly. The...

The way this episode plays with and introduces, you know, Prophecy has obviously been a part of House of the Dragon the entire time since the first episode. Prophecy is obviously a central preoccupation for George R. R. Martin and the House of R. We love to talk about it. One day we'll actually do our multi-episode tropes course. When? Who can say? Don't ask us when. We're not going to tell you when because we don't know. It's either right before or right after the Ball of Fame episode. The Ball of Fame.

I mean, honestly, Doom Prophecy could be a great hook for both. But you didn't hear me say that. You didn't hear me say that. This is like Harry Collette admitting that he only read The Hunger Games on the internet. Why would you ever say that on the internet? Why would you ever admit that on the internet? Incredible. Okay, so.

This, like, you are but one part idea. Obviously, in the sixth episode, we talked a lot about Alice saying to Damon, you are not the player, but a piece on the board. We've talked today at length about how many characters are confronting their version of that idea. Is that something they want to accept? Is it something they accept and then they're in the nihilism nook after? Is it something they want to, like, push against and try to challenge? With Prophecy and Free Will...

One of the things that we love most in a story is when a prophecy is introduced and then we watch the characters interpret, misinterpret, perhaps bring about the very thing they were seeking to avoid. Self-fulfilling prophecy. No better prophecy. What choices do characters make once the question of fate is put before them? This is a thing we love.

How much room is there? Or what form will Free Will take? How does Free Will then have enough of a toehold? We're at Harrenhal, so let's keep toehold in the mix as long as we can. A toehold in the story in tandem with that. When we hear Daemon say...

to Rhaenyra later, I am meant to serve you. When we hear Alice say things like, this world will not be governed, or do you wish then to learn what is given to you? Not what you earn or take or forge, given to you. All your life you've sought to command your own fate, but today you are ready. What is implicit in that? To stop trying to command your own fate, to accept the fate that I am showing you. Mm-hmm.

Again, this falls into a realm, a sandbox that we love when our stories play in, right? What will Damon do now that these ideas are in front of him? What will Eamon do, et cetera? We're going to talk about that scene later. So where are you with this big question and big idea, a question we love to think about? Are you feeling coming out of this finale? We can just talk about this soon. We can jump ahead if you want. Multiple characters,

have had something put in front of them that will now, we will get to see what impact that has on them. We love it. Are you feeling that because the endpoint is known inside of the universe, that we are a little box in there? Do you have any like, okay, yeah, it's interesting if the characters hear or receive a prophecy or see a vision and then we watch what impact it has on them. But I get a little nervous if the characters start to think that they're just on the tram lines from dev.

and that the future is set and thus they don't have the ability to shape or reshape it? Or is this all good? I love when someone's like, this is, I have no other choice. And then like, similar to John Locke in Lost, they have to be like, I was wrong. You know what I mean? Melisandre, Stannis, whatever. That's the tastiest. What I will say- Would you say that Damon was a man of science and Alice? A man of faith. A man of faith? A green man of faith. Something I will say is that

We've got a Conlon quote here about prophecy, which we can talk about in a second. But like he also when I sort of asked him like more specifically, this bothered me less than the Helena Amon thing, which is really just like threw me for a loop. And Conlon kind of got this like glint in his eye where he was just sort of like.

The way that prophecy works is that it's not always, like, play out the way that you think. Right. Which made me think that they... This is me extrapolating. Reddit.com, this is me extrapolating. No one told me this directly. That perhaps it's all going to play out much differently than we expect it will. This is where I am. That they have a plan to really play with... Yeah, I think so. ...some things that we feel like they were like, they just said it. You just said it. That's weird. Yeah. I think so, too. This is what Connell said about...

more generally, right? He says, the thing that I will just say on a larger sort of literary storytelling level, the thing that we are very interested in as storytellers is the idea of how prophecy and these ideas of

messianic ideals that we always see interpreted in stories like this and in Harry Potter, in Star Wars, the Chosen One, the One, the One who's going to save us from everything, the Lightbringer, the Prince that was promised, Azor Ahai, how those ideas are interpreted in George's world, which is, as we know from all the storytelling that he has taken us through to date, that these things are very rarely black and white.

and one thing or the other, and often can be cautionary tales or how ideas like this are interpreted by people in power. Remember that Game of Thrones, A Song of Ice and Fire, House of the Dragon, in many ways, or Fire and Blood, in many ways, are warnings about the perils of power and people in power. And particularly, I think, in this world,

So I'll just say that we're very interested in how those things play out in this world and how once somebody is given, as we've seen Rhaenyra, be given this football to run with, that my father chose me. I was the one. There is a prince who has promised it must be me. This dragon rider was delivered to me and how that is going to see itself manifested over the course of the rest of this war. So I thought that was really good. We did get this email from Olivia who carries with her

A note from George. This is George R.R. Martin. You might have heard of him on Prophecy. And he says, quote, Prophecy is one of those tropes of fantasy that is fun to play with.

But it can easily turn into a straight jacket if you're not careful. Right. One of the themes of my fiction since the very beginning is that the characters must make their choices for good or ill, and making choices is hard. There are prophecies in my seven kingdoms, but their meanings are often murky and misleading, and they seldom offer the characters much in the way of useful guidance. Yeah. And that's the discussion we're having. It's like that ease of risk. And I think that answer from Condal is...

really thoughtful and exciting and the kind of story I'm interested in watching. I like, you know, we talked about this on Sunday, I actually like, I think it's really interesting that we often and have throughout the season talk about how, which Targaryens or even other, you know, other characters like Stannis are coming to contact with this prophecy in some form and then they're like, all of my worst impulses are justified. And so for like Daemon to actually be experiencing the opposite of that where it's like,

This has a calming effect on him, right? On his worst impulses. Yeah. All of that is interesting to me. I think we have to then navigate that with the rogue prince still thinking that the things he...

does and the choices he makes and that his role, whether he having clarity on whether it ends up being right or a misinterpretation on what he now sees his role in that larger story as and how that influences behavior. Fascinating. You've got to the George Straitjacket quote, you've got to walk that line with care so that characters like Damon or Eamon or anyone else still feel like they have a

that their choices matter that they have the agency that free will is a part of the story one of my favorite conversations we ever had with this was on a Rings of Power podcast I'm really excited to get back into talking about Rings of Power and Tolkien and Lord of the Rings with you we were talking about Sam three weeks and we were talking about fate and free will and we were talking about this idea that like let's say we're going to Cabo or we're going to Sharps Point or we're going to Dorne get in bitches we're going to Dorne whatever it is we're going there

How do we get there? Yeah, exactly. What's the path that we take? Our destination is foretold, but the path we take there is our own choice. Yes, absolutely. And like, again, I love that, right? There's like...

Stephen Strange sees all 14 million futures, but there's a reason he waits until when he does to put up one. Because Tony has to make the choices he makes to get to that point. So again, I don't think either of us or Chris had the response like, oh no. It's more like, you've got to walk

I was a little like, huh. This with care? Well, let's talk about the Helena and Aemon scene then. Take us through that. We'll continue the prophecy discussion here. Okay, what's so cool is that Helena is here in Daemon's dream and then we cut to her on the balcony and it seems like seamless. Yeah. She was just standing there on the balcony while also being inside of his dream. So how often have we seen her staring out into space and she's been doing something similar? Condal had an answer about this because this feels like

different from what we understood her abilities to be, which was just like vague visions that she doodles in her notebook on her wall and stuff like that. Beast beneath the boards. He has to close one eye. Versus you're gonna die, bitch. All right. Condal says...

About Helena, yeah, I think she's evolving. And also there's been extreme psychological pressure put on her, not only with the massive loss that she had in the early season, but just the stress of living in this chaotic environment. And I think we know this from...

Anyone that's read into people that have psychic experiences or things like that or people that seem to be medium, a medium that can like read into things or experience a haunting moments of physical stress can bring those things out in a more pronounced way, whether you believe in any of that or not. And I think you're seeing Helena. She's not just going to from the beginning of her life to the end have that same sort of level of grasp of this and this ability. We're seeing it certainly change a little bit.

This idea of her, like, dreamwalking is a new thing she's doing. Or this idea of her being able to articulate what she does to Amon is, like, a new thing that she can do. I love, like, thinking about how her own familiarity with and awareness of her powers is evolving and thinking about that in tandem with how other people's exposure to her power.

Is evolving? Well, this is something – so something that Condal said to the History of Westeros podcast before the season began was this idea of, like, someone's going to be paying attention to Helena. And we were like, who? Who? Who is it? Yeah. I would say, coming out of this episode, Aemond and Daemon. Aemond and Daemon. Yeah. And, like, we talked about this a lot in season one. And, of course.

It's both of them at the same time. Of course it is. We talked a lot in season one about the kind of, not kind of, the tragedy of Viserys being obsessed with dreams and not realizing that his own kid, this group of kids, second family, they just didn't pay any attention to or give a shit about Viserys.

She's a dreamer. And, like, what would it have meant to Helena to have had that kind of, like, nurturing encouragement and interest in her ability earlier? Ugh. Sad. The Targaryens! Everyone needs ghost therapy, honestly. Everyone. Eamon's back. Without mom. Alison's not here, and he's making a direct pitch to Helena. One eye full of tears.

Pooling. Yeah. Pooling with tears. This was emotional. He does say that Allison, she cannot understand that you and I have a true recall to heed. And I did like, because I really feel like that, like, your obsession with those beasts goes beyond understanding season one, episode six moment. It's like, for Eamon, an original sin in his relationship with his mother. Like, you were talking earlier about identity and characters like...

recalibrating their sense of self. Like, for Aemon, for his own—his dad's not paying attention to any of them, and then his mother's like, this thing that is, like, sacred and inherent in who you think you are and who you're supposed to be and who every other Targaryen is. It's not just that you haven't found your way to that and you feel left out. It's like, I'm telling you it doesn't matter. Of course this is a thing he still carries with him. We talked about this on Sunday, but I was struck by, like, Fire and Blood presents Aemon's

strategizing at this stretch of the story as like, I want it all for me alone. Unsurprising. Septon Eustace tells us that the Kinslayer was determined that this should be his victory. He had no wish to share the glory with his brothers nor any other man. And so to see the truth of it, which is

It's actually just that he can't convince anybody to stand with him because he has alienated every single person in his life, either actively sending them away from him or the way he is behaving and treating Helena, giving them no cause to believe in him and his pursuits. And then she just absolutely shocks Eamon with what she says next about the past and about the future. Steve, can we hear this?

And if I refuse, will you burn me as you did Aegon? That is a lie. I saw it. You burned him, and you let him fall. What you say is treason. Aegon will be king. He's yet to see victory. He sits on a wooden throne, and you, you'll be dead. You were swallowed up in the god's eye, and you are never seen again. I could have you killed. It wouldn't change anything. Joanna!

Tough day for the Aemon Helena shippers, but a great day for people who are interested in tracking the tense across sentences, the shifting tenses in what Helena says here. You were swallowed up in the gods' eye and you were never seen again. Wild. Okay. So a couple things here. It's a tough day for Aemon shippers, but also I think a good day for Aemon shippers because I really do feel like this is the most textual evidence that we have in season two that

carries any kind of torch for Helena. So I'm just going to throw them that crumb if they want it. Love it. I loved the tense shift in all of this. I thought it was so good. But it wouldn't change anything. How does she say this? She says anything. It wouldn't change anything. This is something that you really bumped on. And I was with you writing that out of Talk of Thrones. We got a lot of emails about this particular thing.

And most people seem to interpret it a little differently. By it wouldn't change anything doesn't mean like the future is set and everything is set in stone. It's like me living or dying doesn't change what I saw, right? James, among others, wrote, quote, it wouldn't change anything is in response to Eamon threatening her with death. That doesn't mean that she believes there's no free will and everything is determined, just that her death wouldn't have an effect on future events. Yeah, I don't think...

think that either of us was saying that our definitive interpretation was that Helena saying this means that the show has no room for free will or doesn't believe it. It's like a line like that and some of the stuff that Alice said to Damon was

I think it's reasonable after hearing those things to ask what the story's relationship, given this preoccupation with and central role for prophecy, is going to be with free will. Like, it has to be something on their minds. And so I'm curious to see what they do with that. And some of that will be, again, as we were just discussing, through the lens of how the characters think about it. When you hear something like that, if you're Amon—

What does that mean to you? What does it make you think? Let's take the character of Damon. If Alice River says to you, you're going to die in this place, right? If she says that to you, do you go there? Right. And if you do decide to go there, what does that mean about your state of mind? Yeah. That you went there knowing. Right. Well, and maybe it's like, no, I won't. Right. This doesn't have to be true, right? I think though, like...

Here's the one thing, and again, I think, let me say more broadly, people interpreting this stuff differently is, I think, actually part of why this is an interesting thing to play with in a story. In terms of the kind of through line of that response to what we were chatting about on Sunday, just that her death wouldn't have an effect on future events, my response to that is that that's alarming to me, if that's the case. Because it doesn't have to be Helena saying this more broadly about free will and mass blanket across the story.

If a character like Eamon, let's play off the string here, killed his sister and that did not have any impact on his life from there because we're on the tram lines and everything is set, that's not compelling to me.

If Eamon hears something like that and it makes him dig in his heels more stubbornly because it's one more person saying to him this or that and he has to think then about how other people perceive him, how they judge him, whether or not they're willing to accept him, then that's interesting and that's rich. And that's about how the character...

is prepared to inhabit the world around him, a world that happens to include magical prophecies about your futures. There's a path forward here that I think is sensational and that actually gives us some of the most active text about a thing we care about and like parsing in stories. And it is, I think, a tightrope that you have to walk with care. And I find myself wishing, you know, and something that Condal said in the press around Monday is he's like, we're not pretending that no one's read Fire and Blood.

Which was an interesting thing to say because I think sometimes they do. And I think they're trying to have it both ways to a certain degree. And they know that. But, like, he said that specifically about the Helena and Eamon interaction. And I was like, that's strange to me. I guess it would be my preference. Mostly also because I love, like,

weird, puzzly, prophetic language if we had kept it in the sort of like, for both Alice and Helena, in a more hard to parse kind of place where maybe book readers are like, oh, I know what he'll have to close one eye means. Right. You know, like, but people watching at home don't know that that means that. What does Mark him as?

Is your equal mean? Like, don't know what that necessarily is going to do. Yeah. I'm so interested to see what they do with all of this. Yeah. Helena drawing check-in. Yeah, yeah, yeah. We talked about this earlier in the season that, like, on the BTS especially, they showed us a bunch of, like, sketchbooks that Helena has. And she's got all these chalk drawings on her walls that are all these, like, images, mostly animal-based, of, like, things that are coming. So you could see, like— No notes. Yeah.

The Cargill twins, there they got another mention. Wow! We weren't done with them after all! Like, in these two geese, and the goose is a sigil of House Cargill, so like that, you know, like there are these things that you can track pretty evenly one-to-one to... It's the nicest. Treachery. To things that we saw, they're going back through them. There's eyes everywhere. Yeah.

So that could be the God's Eye that she mentions here, or it could be Brennan Rivers' A Thousand Eyes and One. Yeah. There's an owl that I missed before. So, like, she saw Alice, right? Great stuff. A barn owl. And then there's antlered men. Like, there's antlers. There's a bunch of antlers, and I just thought, I thought it was all Baratheon stuff. Right, right. But I think it's some green men stuff. A little bit of a win for old Nan there. Yeah.

Sick. Great stuff. Speaking of sick, speaking of cool, Rhaenyra and Daemon, it's time to reunite them at last. This was just a fucking incredible scene. This is so good. This is why we asked Connell at the beginning of the season, we're like, what are you going to do? Yeah. Yep. Given that we know in the story Rhaenyra and Daemon have to be apart for most of, if not all of this season. Yeah. That's going to suck because we like watching these two actors together. And he was like, yeah, we figured out blah, blah, blah. But like,

I mean, watching them come back together and work opposite each other is just like so wonderful. I really wish we had gotten to then watch them come back together. Tell me. Maybe it's in... The next one, nine? Maybe it's in episode nine. Fly back again? The cutting report with...

With Craig and Stark marching in front of the Winter Wolves. Okay, yeah. So Rhaenyra and Adam fly over the God's Eye and the Isle of Faces and the camera is like shaking as Cyrax and Seasmoke buzz the camera. It's so cool. Really cool to get that like aerial overhead shot to see how vast the Riverlands army is. Yeah. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. It's so cool. How about this walkway where Simon and Rhaenyra meet?

Oh, yeah. Whales. Up the stairs. Whales. When you're getting your steps in. They're like, we need to get just a lot of permits to film here. And then you can see Simon Russell be like someone kind of holding him, helping him. Because they're just on this incredible incline. These whales locations were absolutely stunning. I did love Caraxies responding to Cyrax and Seasmoke arriving. He's just napping alone. And he's like...

This poor guy. He's just lonely. Did I tell you what Paula said about, like, what he's saying there? No. Okay. So she was saying that Paul Fairfield, the friend of the pod who does the dragon noises, she was saying that when Cyrax and Seasmoke first meet each other on the beach there, she was saying that, like, Seasmoke...

is that they were yes this you told me yes they were disagreeing over the pronunciation of foyer that one of them was like it's foyer and the other one was like it's foyer right like southern accent versus like french accent remember and she said when they're flying over um heron hall that kraxi goes it's a mud room like that's what kraxi's was saying according to her oh i love it paula what an icon what a fucking icon

Simon brings Rhaenyra into... But yeah, Cracks is like finally some fucking civilized people around this. They've just had fucking Peter Piper's dead swine. Spooky, spooky.

Dream space. Simon leads Rhaenyra into the Great Hall. And of course, this is where, at the Great Council of 101, Viserys was chosen by the realm to be king. This is where all of the terrible things have befallen this family. Sin begets sin, where did it actually begin? Well, a lot of our characters were happy to discuss that as active text this season. But like this location, what this then did to this family, what a perfect place for Rhaenyra and Daemon to be.

come back together again. Rhaenyra entering, Syrax perching up top to screech, to watch, to protect, but also, like, to warn everybody else. And that army still not kneeling, still not bending the knee to Rhaenyra. It was shocking. And then Daemon... It's a little surprising given that the whole idea was that they're, like, we're... They're for...

Rhaenyra. Yeah. I mean, you build that tension again for us at the end, but yeah. Yeah. Well, but it's just sort of like, I guess in the timeline, maybe I wish a little bit more, like, because we know that Daemon is capable of garnering loyalty, like the gold cloaks are loyal to Daemon Targaryen. They're sworn to me. Yeah. Yeah.

So if Damon had just like a little bit more time to work his like better magic on them, you know, and they're like, we follow that guy. Right. And then he's going to tell us to follow you in like a few seconds and it'll be great. It'll be great. It'll be the best. Damon, Joey gave us one of our favorite things. A long walk. The Damon long walk through the Riverlands army toward Rhaenyra.

with that fucker Alfred Broom there. Yeah. Bliss. Not the Alfred part. The Alfred part was not bliss, just to be clear. I said bliss, right, as you mentioned Alfred Broom, and I don't ever want to do that. Fuck that guy. The rest was bliss. Can you keep that for the soundboard, please? When we cover episode nine, I'll make sure that comes back. We'll see you next Tuesday for our episode nine deep dive. I wasn't expecting you, Damon says. Reneur replies, that seems rather a lapse in foresight. Everything about the performance from both of them is incredible, unsurprisingly, in this scene. That look on Damon's face there,

like it felt to me like he was like touched yeah even though it's a okay this final challenge are we on the same page or not like you can't you did you I you you you came to find me you came to get me you came the last thing the last words we ever shared we're not going to be you're pathetic you came you called a real moment yeah no there's like there's this jousting there's supposed to be there's supposed to be this tension but you and I weren't feeling that much tension because you know that Damon is loyal to Rhaenyra but like

There's supposed to be tension here, but there's this fun joust in it. We talked to Chris a little bit about this on Sunday, but this idea that they're both seeing each other again in a moment of victory. He's like, look at all these guys I got. And she'll be like, did you see that? See Smoky's back? And I got a whole other dude on him. We think Laenor's alive and somehow I got some other guy riding him. I got three dragons. You got an army. That's...

Amazing. Look, think what we can do. So they're at the height of their power. Yes. And that makes them horny for each other, according to Emma Darcy. Great. So there is this like laced inside of this like tense, are you going to acknowledge me? And to whom?

Are you sworn? Stepping back, projecting for all to hear. Damon wants this to be private and Rhaenyra's like, no, no, no. This is theater. He's like, let me draw you into our shared Valyrian language. Yes. Remember when you were, my niece and I groomed you and we only spoke Valyrian to each other? I remember it fondly, remember it fondly, folks.

I did it. This is some great scenes. Sorry. Thrones! What are you going to do? What does he say to her in High Valyrian? He says, the world is not what we thought it was. This war is just the beginning.

Winter is coming. Winter is coming. With darkness and doom. She says, you sound like my father. He says, I saw it. I saw that we cannot withstand it, and yet somehow we must. When they had their absolutely shattering fight in the second episode, a scene we loved, one of the best scenes of the season, we talked about how present Viserys was in that conversation, and so I love that he is present here as well. Yeah. This is obviously a moment of Rhaenyra and Daemon making their way back to each other, but Daemon...

He held Viserys in such, like, judgment. Yeah. Right? Dreams didn't make his kings, dragons did. And for him to have this newfound appreciation for an understanding of who his brother was, how something like his experience with the dream could have shaped him, just felt really, really meaningful. I really liked that. And then they switched back to the common tongue. Let's hear it. The realm's only hope is a leader who can unite it. And my brother chose you. ♪

You are the true queen, Rhaenyra. First of her name, protector of the realm. I am meant to serve you. And all of these with me until death or the end of our story. I love the way that Matt says Rhaenyra. Guys, voice is so thick with emotion there. I loved this.

I am meant to serve you and all of these with me until death do us part or the end of my story. Like, the way in which you and Chris and I all clocked this as like a wedding vow, a vow of renewal in front of all of the mud men of the Riverlands. And Sir Simon being like, yay!

In the background. Genuinely incredible Simon background shot there. So good. Who's your preferred background? Is it Sir Lauren sort of going for his sword? No, it's Simon clapping. With respect to Sir Lauren, it's got to be Simon. It's got to be Simon. That track from Ramin Djawadi is, I believe, called Fight for Our Queen. We fight for our queen. It's always nice when you get a trailer line, finally.

This Damon speech was a big trailer line. There's some trailer lines that are missing from the season. Oh, well, that'll be in episode nine. Stop! How'd you enjoy the moment where Rhaenyra kind of pulls Damon's hand? Right. Leave me again at your peril. And he's like, could not have tried. There's warmth there. Such charm. The little, like, the lean in. Like, he's, like, going for, like, a little head nuzzle. A near nuzzle! A near nuzzle!

We've got the nihilism nook and we've got the near nuzzles. Yeah. Oh, man. This was just an incredible scene. What else? Anything else about this beautiful scene that you'd like to say? Sir Alfred fucks off. If it were me and I were Damon Targaryen and I routinely killed people, I would have just cut off Alfred's head. He can keep his dog.

This is me being, I put this on Twitter, but this is me being musical pilled. But like, of course, it's just like logistically practical that there would be tents inside of Heron Hall when Damon like got a huge blister after only cutting like four logs. Like they have not rebuilt the roof. So there's tents everywhere inside. But tents inside of a stone structure makes me think of either the Bible, if you prefer, or if you're me, Jesus Christ Superstar, which is when...

They make a marketplace inside of the temple and Jesus comes in and he like freaks out because there's a marketplace inside the temple and he just like sings in high falsetto and he's like, get out. But it just, it made me think like this sort of like, here comes Rhaenyra coming in to check, where's the level of commitment and devotion here? Are you on the right track? That was sort of like the visual association that I meant. Made, do you want to talk about Alan and Corlys? Let's do it. Corlys is like, great scene.

You know, I really want to talk about how you're my secret son and I wasn't there for you, but instead I'm going to just say, like, I got to get on good terms with my first mate before we head out to the gullet. And Alan... It's just simply not how I would have done it. Finally has enough of it, right? He does try to say, like, I will work to, you know, improve myself and go away. And then Carlos is like, I'm just trying to help you and that's it. That is one step too far for Alan of Hull's liking. And he says, he recounts, like, what it was like...

The grief, the shame, the hunger to grow up without their father. And then on top of that, the indignity of having to watch that father walk by. Alan's out there selling fish in the cold and Corlys and Laenor with their furs wrapped around them, walk by to get their sweet meats. The fur detail really got to me. Man. And then he says...

And now that boy is dead and his sister before him in the air that took his place. And now, now you remember I live. He says that, I'm going to decline your offer of help. Thank you. And Corliss, the look on his face, like he has the good grace in this very painful moment to look deeply ashamed.

And I like this as a follow-up to our conversation, our, like, disagreement with Chris, but many sons of fathers emailed us to let us know that they thought we were wrong. That, like, Corliss is giving, like, crumbs, the bears of crumbs to Adam last week when he's like, you know, well done. Congrats, you're well done. You know, like...

And I like this follow-up here where Adam's like, crumb. And Alan's like, fuck your crumbs. Yes. Crumb's not enough. I'm going to need a whole freshly baked loaf still warm. Yeah. It's the very least I deserve. And even if I get one of those, I didn't get one from you when I was a kid for all those years. Yeah. This was an emotional little moment. Excited to see what happens with the—

Alan and Adam. He looks great in his armor. He and Adam both get, you know, beautiful new armor. Yeah. Oh, man. All of the suiting up at the end. I think Adam's armor is my favorite. Incredible. Also, like, for armor, which is often quite heavy, it still looks very, like, light for Dragonflight, which I liked. Practical. Okay, Jo, we're down to our last few scenes here.

Masaria and Rhaenyra, we're about to get to the big... I was about to get really sad, but then I remembered we have episode nine next week. Stop! Okay, I'll stop. I'll stop for real now. I'm going to make you pod with me about a fictional episode nine next week if you keep it up. Okay. Don't tempt you with a good time? Yeah, that sounds really fun. Yeah. Masaria, Rhaenyra. Yeah. What would you like to say about this scene? Episode nine, scene one.

Jason Lannister gets his face eaten by a lion. Dare to dream. That would be incredible. Masaria is using language here like, no choice, be strong, you know, you must. This is kind of like an uptick in the active handling of Rhaenyra, right? Of the pressure. And just reinforcing this idea, like the gods favor you, which is what we heard, of course, Rhaenyra herself voice last episode. And now Masaria is...

porting that in as Rhaenyra is like in that little seat of doubt my father wouldn't have wanted this and Mysaria's like let's do the thing. Condal on the sort of like Messiah complex

beat about Rhaenyra. Conall said on Monday, speaking as Rhaenyra, Conall says, like, I understand that he, Viserys, thought I, Rhaenyra, was a one. So she starts looking for signs and portents that seem to indicate that Viserys was right. And of course, we, with a sort of modern eye looking in, know that that's potentially a dangerous path for somebody in a position of power. Uh, to say power! Welcome back.

Welcome back to Rings of Power. So, okay. So then we get, like, the scene. It's hard for me to pick, actually, between Damon and Rhaenyra and Alicent and Rhaenyra, but I think it is this. What about Larys and Aegon? This was your favorite scene. Rhaenyra and Alicent.

It was really good. It was so good. Someone was asking me, so like I'm zooming ahead to this idea of like we end with Rhaenyra caged in and Alicent's like free and open horizon. Yeah.

And someone was like, well, actually, Rhaenyra has, oh, and I love, well, actually, Rhaenyra has always been sort of hemmed in. You know, she said no to Kristen Cole. Like, you know. I am the crown. I am the crown, blah, blah, blah. I think it's different for Kristen Cole to invite you to enjoy Cinnamon and Oranges than for Alicent Hightower, your closest We Were Girls Together person.

to make this bid for run away with me to Cabo or Sharps Point or wherever you prefer. Right. Like, and only that the Messiah scene wasn't like that useful in this episode, but I think the reminder that Raniera Messiah like smooched. Yeah. Um, which by the way, correction, thanks to one of our listeners for jamming me on Instagram about this. Um,

I think it's Sarah Hess who said the kiss was always in the script. It was the embrace before the kiss that Emma Darcy... So the kiss was always planned. So she has kissed a girl and she liked it, perhaps. And now here's Alison being like, Come with me. Let's go. Also, Alison's like,

I've fucked people other than your father. Not going to mention specifically who. And specifically where you were bad. But I did do that. And so it's like, it's a different kind of offer for her to have to turn down here. Absolutely. Yeah. Than she's ever had. The most duty has ever sort of boxed her in an arrest. Totally. And I think like that, like we were talking about all episode, right? How are different characters responding to this idea of what is your role in the story? And for Allison,

Who sat there with the book, trying to get Rhaenyra to focus and to read and to engage. And then passed that page via Otto as the olive bridge, as the bridge. For Alyson to leave that and all the other things we're about to talk about behind and Rhaenyra to be very literally framed as a piece in this larger story. A piece of history. The weight of history around you. Very effective. This is one of those scenes you were talking about this earlier.

earlier with the laris egg on scene and how like part of the um part of what's rewarding about being being actually having a scene where not just because we do a four-hour podcast but because like the scene rewards that level of every word interrogation like we literally could have done the entire podcast about the scene everything they say to each other we have built toward the moment of that exchange so let's get into it um

Allison starts off just like it's, I've been mistaken. I've been mistaken. I was wrong. Mistakes were made. She invokes the order of things, Joe. There it is again that she felt bound by. It says that she resented Rhaenyra for challenging it, for knowing what she wanted, a thing that Allison did not know and did not feel she could even assess. Can I just say, Allison didn't even have to go to ghost therapy. She was needing one big bath.

And she made all the progress that it took David. She deceased Sir Rickard fingering in trails once. Just the one time. I missed Rick the Dick. She just had to lose one grandchild and then watch her son the king get burned to goo and then get fired and then take one big bath. Just a huge bath. Huge bath. She says she's lost her way.

lost those that she puts faith in. This is where she mentions her lover and Rhaenyra jumps all over it. You alone made virtue your banner. I loved this. Bliss. I loved this. Because when she's like, do not judge me for what you yourself have done. And I mean it quite literally. We're talking about Kristen Cole. Same dude, same bed, just saying. Do not judge me for what you yourself have done. And then she was just sort of like...

You alone made virtue your banner. This is my issue with... It wasn't her alone. It was the duo of Kristen Cole and Alison Hightower making virtue their banner whilst doing dirty deeds. I still say, as we look back at the season, release the animalistic carnal gut. Do you think Bale is saying, but it doesn't make me...

What did she say in special whatever? Common. Common, there you go. Would have been better if they had been having sex at the time. Yes. Why aren't those kids having sex? I know. On their like private little like crossbow hill. Yeah. You know, where they go for their little chats. Oh, that looks cold and uncomfortable. I feel like we could find... Just fuck like for like the Dothraki, you know, out in the open sky. They have beautiful, warm, fire lit bed, royal bed chambers. Yeah.

A rocky outcropping for just Ceres Velaryon, the heir. I don't know. I mean, there are a lot of fires and like even the tables in Dragonstone are on fire and warm, but it doesn't seem, it's a cold place. Rhaenyra's bed looked kind of cozy. It did. Even the way Rhaenyra's like holding the pillow when Lorin comes in. Yeah.

I still can't believe they let Alicent in. I mean, we got a great scene, but I am like, I have some follow-up conversations with the crew at Dragonstone after this. I'm like, you can't let in. We didn't meet at the sap. Alicent didn't sneak in. She just knocked on the front door at Dragonstone. They were like, come on in. No one with her. This was so funny. Alicent is explaining all the stuff we were just talking about, this transformative experience that she has had, right? Busting out of that prison that Renise used to talk about. Talk about. And what does Rhaenyra say?

How lovely for you. How lovely for you. Emma and Olivia. They're both so good. They're so good. Insane. So good. By the way, this is our last opportunity to recreate the photo that we've been threatening to recreate all summer long. Think about it. We got another few minutes before we leave. I thought for the first time, Allison says,

What I would choose, if not for the duty I put before all else. There is definitely a reason, in addition to just like, you know, tugging on our old, we love the North, we love Winterfell, we love the Wall, heartstrings, that this season began with Craig and Stark saying, duty is sacrifice. It eclipses all else, even blood. Duty. Duty. Oaths and duty. Winters. This is really, honestly, of all the reasons we needed another big Craig scene, it's to give you more opportunities to...

To say it was like that, which I've missed. I've missed that. All of Yorkshire in addition to all of Scotland? Okay, cool. Allison says she wants to go away with Helena, with Chihara. I do not wish to rule. I wish to live, to be free of all this endless plotting and striving. So here we are, the payoff of Renise's question. Plots and strives? Plots and strives. Have you never imagined yourself on the Iron Throne?

The question is really, are you going to be able to move beyond a moment where you imagined yourself as Regent? You know, we talked on Talk the Thrones about the fact that, like, Alison rolls up here in her, like, robin's egg blue, the color that she wore in season— not in just one dress in season one, episode one, but two, at least two dresses. The color we first meet her in. Back to gnawing on the nails. Oh, yeah. I thought you were telling me I had something in my teeth. I was like, oh, my God. Okay.

Yeah, I got it. Okay. It's not just Damon who needs a manicure now. Allison's back to the nail bed. She's biting on the nails. And what they said in the BTS is... What they said in the behind the scenes is that it was important for both of them to be in sort of like a childlike state in this scene. So I would love to hear the costume designer's thoughts on what Rhaenyra is wearing. I...

I confess I could not parse it or, like, connect it to anything we had seen before. Maybe it's more just, like, for Rhaenyra, I mean, this doesn't answer the childlike part, but, like, you know, we're coming off of, you've ridden your dragon to make this great challenge. You've got your crown on and your finery on at the table. You are the queen. And here you're just, like, you're in your dressing gown. You had a pillow and your arms in bed. Like, you're just a person. And here's your best friend asking you to run away. And you say no. Wait, wait, wait. So...

All I want to say is that, like, you know, to be free of all this endless plotting and striving, which is so Otto's influence on her, obviously. But it's just sort of like this idea that, you know, when she expresses in season one when Otto was sent away and she was so freaked out because she's just like, who in all of the Seven Kingdoms will be for me? You know, that sort of thing. Yeah. Sorry, I only wanted to take my side. Yeah.

It's like the fact that she was able to get back to who she actually is. Yeah. Without, because someone, the triarchy, the Beesbury, somebody locked Otto up in a cage, they had to cage him. Yeah. In order for her to get back to. I love that. Blue, you know. I love what you're calling out here. Like strip off the uniform of the striver and the plunderer. Yeah. It's great. Great stuff. What does Rene say though? Here it is. This, this.

role reversal from the sept scene in episode three when alison said it's too late for nira yeah renera says here it's too late alison you said it yourself blood has been shed cities burned armies march and you wish to wash your hands of what you yourself

set in motion. So here again is that idea, season-long theme, very present in the third episode when they met in the Sept. Sin begets sin, the Simon idea, Renny saying we teeter now at the point where none of it will matter and the desire to kill and burn takes hold and reason is forgotten. It's one more moment where it's like, can reason win the day? And that Lady Macbeth you wish to wash your hands sort of imagery that we've been seeing all season leading to the aforementioned Big Beth.

Yeah, it's I love this. A lot of people didn't like this. A lot of people don't like the fact that Allison here says Aimee's going to fly out of the Riverlands in three days time.

Gullet on the morrow. Two years. Gullet on the morrow. Two days to train dragons. And in three days time, we fly to King's Landing. Man, episode nine is going to be fucking loaded. You did it this time. You've incepted me. To take King's Landing without bloodshed. So Allison's going to open the gates. I love that she's like, actually, Helena will be in charge and I'll tell Helena what to do and Helena will be fine with this, which probably. Yep.

And here comes the sacrifice. This is what Olivia Cooke was teasing about. When asked what the finale was about, she said sacrifice. Yes. So it's the half-burnt sun. There it is. This is the opening clip that we played at the top of the pod today. This offer from Allison to enter in your responses, I need you to toss in egg on his head. And I just need a little egg on top.

Can you put a poached egg on top of that? Poached egg. Too soon still after the cabbage leaves and the peeling off of the... And that as well. So, you know, Rhaenyra is undeniably right. We have been building and the show has been building toward this inevitability, right? That I won't challenge Rhaenyra.

Aegon back in his window-anking days said to his mother, she said, you are the challenge. You are the challenge, Aegon, simply by living and breathing, which, although the previous episode and for many exchanges in their lives prior had primed her for, the time is coming, Alicent. Either you prepare Aegon to rule or you cleave to Rhaenyra and pray for her mercy.

If Aegon lives, whether Alicent convinces him to bend the knee or not, there will always be the challenge, the challenge to Rhaenyra as the ruler. Rhaenyra is right to say it, but it doesn't, the fact that she is right, doesn't in any way minimize Rhaenyra.

The heft and horror of what she is asking a person she loves and cares about to do. But it's also, it is, I mean, it's obviously a huge thing to ask. Yeah. I got to behead your son. Yeah. And you need to let me. You need to right there make your choice. You need to nod and say, I can. The way that Emma played this, which reminded me so much of like when you ask someone,

for something and it's going to hurt your feelings so much if they say no. And every fiber in your being wants to say, no worries if not. You know? Can I have your sense? No worries if not. Have you ever shared this cartoon I have of the bat signal? Have I shown you that? I don't think so. It's like this beautiful line drawing. It's Gotham City. It's the bat signal up and then the second signal just says, no worries if not. Yeah.

That's real me energy. So, like, no worries if not is sort of, like, kind of churning inside. Obviously, big worries if not. But, like, it's kind of like Emma is playing this as, like, a, oh, my God, I've asked too much, and it's going to be so painful when she says no. Yeah. And then she says yes. Yeah. I mean, she doesn't say it, but she— The nod. The nod, yeah. Incredible. Just an incredible, chilling, spine-tangling moment. And, like, for Allison—

To live a life, and now in this position of new perspective, to look back at the life she lived of duty, you know, where's duty, where's sacrifice, and for that to be the thing that is invoked. Trampled. Trampled. I know you're reading fun again. To be invoked and the thing that she has to, like, heed and follow through on. My God, this was just painful. And then I thought this next exchange was just...

Sublime. Rhaenyra says that Alicent is much changed, and it is true. We have watched them both change quite a bit, and yet, in some ways, they are in that same spot that they originally were in together, or at least wish they could be. Steve, let's hear this. I cast myself in the mercy of a friend who once loved me. History will paint you a villain, a cold queen, grasping for power and then defeated. Let them think what they must. I am at last myself.

with no ambition greater than to walk where I please and to breathe the open air, to die unremarked and unnoticed, and be free. You speak as if from a distant dream. Come with me. My part is here. Whether I will or no, I've decided for me long ago. Ugh. This makes me really, really sad. Man. You speak as if from a distant dream. Gorgeous. Heartbreaking.

This is just really, like, I found crushing. I do want to repeat what I said on Sunday and just gently say that, like,

There's so much I love here. Yeah. But history will paint you a villain, a cold queen grasping for power and then defeated. Yeah. Just felt a little too like this is the text of Fire and Blood. Yeah. I think there's a way to say this is just like just shave the edges off it and just say like history won't remember you well or like history, you know. Yeah. Even history will paint you a villain and then just like leave the other part off. Yeah. I think would have removed that like we get it. That's what the book is, you know. Totally fair. I liked it because I liked the –

acknowledgement of how these crucial moments that have become so central to the show are not present in the text at all and how also like this I mean yeah

Saying you can kill my kid is a pretty big sacrifice, but this is a huge sacrifice for Allison, too. Your reputation, your standing, your legacy in a show obsessed with legacy. That's the thing where they must. Oh, man. I found myself thinking a lot watching this scene and revisiting this scene about one of my favorite lines from Fire and Blood. We've talked a lot this season about Jaehaerys. Jaehaerys the Conciliator and what his legacy is and what lingers and what people think about

They are inheriting and trying to carry forward. And there's a line, we read passages about Vermithor last week and talked about big Rajbrathian. This moment, some men say that we are now enemies, Jaehaerys says. I would sooner think of us as friends who disagreed. Just like kills me because...

I feel that so much in their relationship here for Rhaenyra and Alicent. Like, friends who disagreed. What a tragic thing that is to end up here as friends who disagreed. And I think, like, of all of the lessons people point to from Jaehaerys' reign, this is the great one to me. Like, that he had the strength.

to say that and to believe that that could be true and that there could still be a way forward. Did it always go well? No. No. It did not. But there are so many people, especially people in a position of power, who would never have the courage to, like, allow that to be true. Yeah.

And it's just like, I just want Alison and Rhaenyra to stay to each other, friends who disagreed, and try to find a way forward. And for Rhaenyra, when Alison says, come with me, to say, I didn't want Kristen's oranges and cinnamon, but I do want to go do this with you. It's tragic. Big bathtub, baby. Oh, man. Anything else on this beautiful scene before we hit the closing montage? Yeah, I think it really invokes this sentiment that has been...

It was bizarrely popularized by a TikTok that was about these older women and this dedication on the bench. And the dedication on the bench from one to the other said we were girls together. And it became this really, really powerful thing that has cropped up again and again on TikTok. And there's various sorts. Did it come from Toni Morrison? Did it come from me or the other thing? But it was popularized now because of this gesture between...

From one old friend to another, we were girls together. We, like, our girlhood. And so, you know, not to be, like, deeply, super disgustingly sappy about it, but, like, you know, in the, like...

ripple after effects of like Barbie and Taylor Swift and all this sort of stuff like that. And this like new era we're in where it's like girlhood, which is one something that was sort of like mocked for being frivolous and stupid has become this like sacred space for people. It's okay. We were girls together and that matters. And yeah, it just, they were girls together and, and all that time we spent with them in season one with like,

You know, Millie Alcock and Emily Carey and just sort of like the way that we can think about these two girls under a tree. Just sort of like reading and talking about traveling and eating cake and never adjusting about cake. So beautiful. So like for the Rhaenyra Alicent shippers, I salute you and support you. And like I am for it. I like it. Yeah.

And also, it's a story beyond that. Yes, absolutely. Which is just before my father made me do this or my father named me his heir, before all of that, before we had to fight and strive to be heard in rooms with men and all this sort of stuff like that. Before I heard a prophecy. Yeah, we were just girls together. I love that. And yeah, I find it tremendously sad and tremendously beautiful. And like these...

Two performers are so incredible with that scene. And yeah, I just, I think that. And then like when I get to talk to you about stories we read when we were like girls and how they still matter to us now, then it's like we were girls together. You and I like didn't know each other. I know, but we shared a thing. Yeah, and you can discover that for the rest of your life. That's beautiful. I love thinking too of like,

The thinking now of like the choice to have the wherewithal is that setting because we've obviously at length today and throughout the season, we talk about the wherewithal and like the magic and the connection and the future and the religion and the culture. But like for them, that was just the place that they could go be, you know? Yeah.

And like sit and talk and think. And it is just as much about that one moment in time as it is about the three-eyed raven or future dragon eggs or red comets or any sort of portent. It can just be about like the connection that you share under that shade with another person. Exactly. And that's just as magical and just as powerful. Yeah.

I'll miss Westeros. I'll miss getting to see you every week. I'm really sad. I'm not going anywhere. We're just not going to be in the same room together. Closing montage? Let's do it. Ramin Djawadi is like... Just unbelievable. This score beat moment here is called Almost Choose. I was looking back through the scores for the season, you know, and I think what's true in general in House of Dragons, like, I don't think...

What Almost Choose is comprised of is a number of scores that we're familiar with, like the Stark score or the Lannister theme or all this sort of stuff like that. I don't think House of the Dragon has a few where we're like, that's Rhaenyra's theme, that's this and the other, but not as many identifiable motifs. Where I think Rhaemyn Javadi really cooked here and also...

Earlier in the season, the track is called A Sun for a Sun, and it's the morning after Blood and Cheese. It's a track that's called Blood and Cheese, but the morning after Blood and Cheese. That was good. It's that low cello sort of moment. But yeah, I would love... I mean, wouldn't it be fun to come out of the season with a Tully theme? You know what I mean? I would love... Or what's Alice Rivers' theme? Maybe it exists. I just need to do more research into it. Hoots of barn owls and...

Hoots and clip-clopping and the slop of wet weirwood leaves into mortar and pestle. I would listen. I would listen. What if it's just called Witch Stuff Go? Witch Stuff Go! Okay. Everyone's getting armored up. Incredible. Barry wears the horse, wears the rider for all of them. Raina and Sheepy have their moment. This is Ormond Hightower's forces on the march in the Reach. They're going north.

And we see Tessarian. Yeah. Tessarian's saddle. Yeah. Crucially cannot actually identify Darren. But Tessarian is a cobalt belly, copper winged dragon. This was a thrill to me.

Ryan Condal did say with all certainty, we will meet Darren Targaryen in season three. I mean, I fucking hope so after the 900 mentions this season. It was very exciting to see him. That's what I said in the press release. I was like, wouldn't it be hilarious if we didn't meet him in season three? No, it would not be. The Winter Wolves are crossing the Twins. We hear the Stark theme. As we mentioned, there's a version of this that had Craig Stark marching in the front. Got cut. We don't know why.

Jason Lannister's forces march toward the fork and we hear the reins of Castamere in the score. Daemon, freshly fucked in his armor, walks out and looks at all the tents that he's assembled. That shot was in the trailer. Yeah. Yeah. Tyland, also freshly fucked. The Triarchy sailing towards the gullet. Corlys and Alan sailing towards the gullet. Otto Hightower where? We don't know.

and Aegon escaping in a wagon. If you're Rhaenyra and you show up to King's Landing and this person who was like, we were girls together, yes, I will kill my son for you. And she's like, oops, I'm missing it. That's a

part of the agreement that was just struck. I don't know where he is. I feel like that might be a problem. It's a bummer. Might be a problem. And then the dual shots, as we mentioned, of Rhaenyra hemmed in by the lattice with all the scrolls and Alicent in the bright, broad horizon of reverse of these sort of tableaus that we've seen them in all season. Something that Condal said in the presser is that shot of Alicent in front of this massive sky, um,

Was not digitally altered. This is something that they did in camera on the Wales coastline. It looks absolutely gorgeous. Stunning. Stunning. Episode nine. See you next week. All right. Well, we'll be back next week. It does not fit a podcaster to put. I'm sad. I'm sad. I know, me too. I mean, I'm happy to go home, but I am going to miss you. I'll miss you terribly. This has been...

Such a treat. I remember we got COVID for two weeks. That part was horrible. That part I hated. That was awful. Still shaking off the brain fog and that was rough. But like you said, we will be back next week. Not in person together, but we will be back on the interwebs for our...

Hot D, season wrap. We're going to hand out some season superlatives, answer more mailbag questions, do our book look ahead. That will be a blast. Thank yous. Thank you to our wonderful small council. We literally could not do it without them. Steve Allman and John Richter for producing these

incredibly long, suddenly on video, deep dives, Arjuna Ramgopal for his additional production work on this episode and every episode. Arjuna, who's like not let me throw away a piece of trash since I got here, he's just sort of like, oh, I'll take your trash, I'm like, how am I going to go back to nobody pampering me the way that Arjuna does? It's going to be so sad. There's only one Arjuna. That's the thing I know to be true. So.

And thank you to Joe Miendenron for his work on the social for this episode and the entire season. We will see you next week. Exact points to be determined, but a couple times for our State of the MCU. We are finally going to check in on Deadpool, talk some MCU, talk some down MCU. Talk some, my brain. Downy, Doom, Hot D, season two recap. Not a recap. We've recapped it at length.

Our episode nine recap. The daytime episode nine. Until then, we were rather set on a map and a flag and a wine.