'House of the Dragon' Season 2 Wrap: Season Awards, Mailbag, and Book Lookahead
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Greetings, and welcome to House of R, a Ringerverse podcast on the Ringer Podcast Network. I'm Mallory Rubin, and it is my absolute pleasure to invite you not only back to King's Landing, but also back into the House of R. Joining me today, reminding me that I alone made virtue my banner, it's Joanna Robinson. Did you make virtue your banner, Mallory? Certainly not. Is that what we would say? Yeah.

What's up, bad babies? We're still here. We're still in Westeros, Mallory. Yeah. We just weren't ready to leave quite yet. One last time. We're going to do a little season wrap, a little season two wrap. We are going to hit some season awards. We're going to answer some mailbag questions, and then we're going to do a little book look ahead because we didn't do that in the deep dive. We're going to do it here today. So before we dive into all of that, some quick programming reminders. Okay.

Over on the Ringerverse, the Midnight Boys. Pew, pew, pew. We'll be back with you next week, as we'll mint edition, for Alien Romulus and Watchmen Chapter One. That's coming on Monday. Midnight Boys will be back with you next Wednesday. Here on the House of R, we will have one podcast for you next week. We're taking some time off.

Hype meter. One pod. Barring something unforeseen that forces us to pod more than once. No. We will have one pod. Mallory, no. Vacation. We promised. It's necessary. One week. Full episodes of House of R. Full episodes of The Midnight Boys available on the Ringerverse YouTube channel. Woo!

So hit subscribe on that if you haven't. Joanna, where else can everybody follow along? Wow, I'm so glad you asked me. First of all, back to the YouTube thing. If you want to watch me wipe the floor with Van Lathan in a Last Jedi debate, you can do that. You can listen to it on Podcast Forum or Ringiverse, but you can watch it on the YouTube channel as well. I didn't quite wipe the floor with him. He had some great points, but I think I did win at the end of the day. But friendship won more than anything else. Also, you can...

Just subscribe to the pod. Why don't you on, on your pod listening platform of choice, subscribe to house of ours, subscribe to the ringer verse. If you, if that's not enough, if you want more, guess what? We're all over social media. Thanks to Joe me a dinner on. So you can follow the ringer verse on Twitter, Instagram, Tik TOK, Facebook, et cetera, et cetera. And then of course, as always,

Hobbitsanddragons.gmail.com. We are taking one solitary single week off, and then we will be doing a hard transition, hard pivot from Dragon Time to Hobbit Time. It's rings of power. I'm so excited. We've gotten so many emails from listeners saying how excited. Oh, my. Oh, my goodness. It's been a minute since I heard the multi-call. Yeah. Yeah.

How excited they are for Rings of Power. People are really excited for Rings of Power Season 2. Can't wait. In general and also like our pod coverage. As you might recall, I took it extremely early in the hype draft at the start of the year. I'm really looking forward to it. Where will it fall on the hype meter? The seasonal hype meter next week? Who can say? Tune in to find out. I can't wait though. Spoiler. I can't wait. I love your... I just...

forget what we drafted like as soon as we are done drafting. Certain things I feel really proud of and then certain things haunt me and like not just like taking Deadpool knowing that Sean would on the swing whereas there was absolutely no prospect of him taking Rings of Power and I could have just gotten it

in the second round is something I've thought about every single day since we potted, since we did the draft. Every day. I wake up and I think about it. I go to bed and I think about it. I'm just like a goldfish and like another trip down around the bowl and I have completely forgotten what we did. Okay, great. Great stuff. Well, can't wait to be in Middle Earth and excited to be in Westeros today. What a time. What a time for the House of Arb, Hobbits and Dragons. Great stuff. Joanna.

Yeah, Mallory. The last programming reminder is the Friendly Neighborhood spoiler warning. It's the same one as always. We will be talking about not just a single episode today, but everything that happened in season two of House of the Dragon could come up today. Everything that happened in season one could come up today. Anything that's ever happened in House of the Dragon could come up today. Throughout the pod, as always, we will be talking about Fire and Blood.

for context, for insights, but anything that's in the future, anything that awaits in the text, we will be discussing separately in our book look ahead section. And you will have a spoiler warning before that section begins. So if you do not want to join us for that, you can still hang around for the season awards and the mini mailbag. And then we will, we will part with you two years from now when we return to Westeros again.

And for folks who have been feeling like the book section was like a little, you know, brisk on previous pause, this is like our serious, like, we're going to spend some time in that section today. We have a lot to think about and to say about it. So, yeah. All right, Jo. Yeah. We have dishonored ourselves and the crown with our comportment here, but we're going to pod anyway. Not yet, but give us time.

You have a mailbag question before we begin our season's proletives? Something you want to toss out? It just made me laugh. Our listener, Kenneth, wrote, and I believe this is the entirety of the email. Ladies, I've now watched Dune 2 twice on an airplane. To quote the monkey from The Lion King, it is time. So, Paul of Fame. Is this about the Paul of Fame? Before the end of the year? Sure. We can say that on the podcast. We can commit that to the public record. We love Paul of Fame.

I feel we will have a bounty of perspective hooks around Dune Prophecy. And we will consider that as a possibility. Yeah, the Oscars next year, the one-year anniversary of the film next spring. Possibilities abound. So fall, spring, sometime in there. Yeah. Yeah. Before we retire, certainly. Before we die, yeah. I mean, that could happen at any point. So, like, who knows?

I mean, again, I have been incredibly unwell. If one of us dies, the other will do the Paul of Fame in memoriam in honor. That can be the eulogy you do at my funeral. Live from the gravesite. I like it. I will be potting. No. Perfect way to say goodbye. Perfect way to say goodbye. Okay. Always nice when people check in on the Paul of Fame. We appreciate it. We look forward to doing it one day. Genuinely. Can't wait. Exciting times. So much content.

Love story. Do it too on a plane. Yeah. Yeah. What's your plane movie strategy? Oh, I choose like the dumb stuff that I feel too good for in the theater is I watch it on a plane. I was just talking to someone.

They were talking about a ranking that they gave a film on Letterboxd. They gave like a four star ranking to, I can't remember the movie, but some like pretty widely acceptable shitty movie. And I was like, why did you rank it so high? And they were like, oh, I watched it. I watched it on a plane. I was like, I feel like Letterboxd should have a different color star rating.

For I watched this on a plane because your standards are so low, so much lower on a plane. And that's what I, yeah, that's what I like to catch up with the trash. And I have a great time doing so. And I don't feel guilty about it. So,

plane watches. It's for the trash. What about you? What do you watch on a plane? I don't really. I usually listen. Oh, you stare into space and think about your errors? No, I think about mistakes in prior drafts. Yeah, kind of. Usually I'll read or listen to podcasts.

And then I will spend a large chunk of each flight trying and failing to fall asleep and thinking about how I can't fall asleep and how unhappy I am that I can't fall asleep. That's usually my routine. And then I have a lot of snacks. As you know, I have a very serious snack strategy for flights. I'm mere days away from taking a flight, so...

To meet you. Can't wait. To see me. I'm so excited. We've been together for a summer and apart for mere days, and we need to be reunited, however briefly. And I have many, many flights ahead of me over the next week and a half, two weeks. So we'll see. Maybe I will watch something. I'll let you know. I'll keep you posted. Sometimes watching trash on a plane is a good way to put yourself to sleep.

Just a thought. Interesting. Okay. I'll take it under advisement. I know you fall asleep watching things sometimes. I've heard these stories. But that's if I'm like super comfortable at home in pajamas. Oh, not in a public place. Under a fleece blanket with halo curled up, nuzzled into my like hip or elbow nook. Whereas I find playing so uncomfortable that like it's just difficult for me not to think about how every joint aches.

and also about all of the germs that are around me. This is a great way to start this podcast. Do you think people like this? Are they riveted right now? Oh, dear. Oh, Simon. Okay, let's start the podcast. Oh, Simon. Perfect. Okay. You know what? I feel like we're going to be hearing again from Sir Simon Strong in the superlatives today because it is time to head back into the bowels of the pleasure den for the season two superlatives. Take it off. You wouldn't dare. I have that, and I find it stimulating.

How much daring will there be in today's award selections? Let's find out. We know the categories, but I do not know what you picked and you do not know what I picked. So we're going to go rapid fire through some highlights of the season and we're going to surprise each other. I feel like as usual, you will be able to guess absolutely all of my picks and I will be surprising you not once.

But we'll find out. I didn't get too wild and wacky with these. So. Laris for every category. Maybe like assignment and analysis just sprinkled in. Best episode, Laris. For variants. Best set piece, Laris. I mean, you could try it. I think people would accept it. You know, we love a bit here at the House of R. Thanks for the support. Hey, anytime, pal. Anytime. Let's get to our first season two superlative.

It's the Worst I'm Rational Award. Favorite episode of the season. What do you got? This is kind of tough, actually. Yeah, I've had a lot of these quite hard. But I went with, just like thinking back to like my elation and my excitement to discuss an episode with you and Chris, et cetera, et cetera. I think I have to go with The Burning Mill, episode three. The pre-Rook's Rest episode. Yeah, I will.

And part of it had to do with, like, how high Chris Ryan was on it. Because it's always, you know, this is a communal effort, us watching House of the Dragon. And so, like, the fact that Chris, who, like, his enthusiasm for House of the Dragon is never quite as high as ours is as a default. Yeah.

So the fact that he was just like over the moon about episode three and like we were at the live show and you hadn't watched it yet. He and I had watched it. We couldn't wait for you to watch it. And he was talking about the writing. This is the episode that David Hancock wrote. And so we were talking a lot about David Hancock's like writing in this episode. We found it to be very like witty, very emotional. This is and I often like a pre-battle episode. Like, you know, this is the right what happens right before Rook's rest.

essentially. And so, you know, the, the way the burning mill was handled, um, the way that, you know, Laris becomes master of whispers for Aegon. We meet Ulf in seriousness here. Um,

Yeah, and Bela gets to scare the shit out of Chris and Cole with her dragon. I mean, what more could I ask for, really? So, yeah. Great pick. Christopher Ryan was on my mind with some other categories today. This is not going to be the last time Chris comes up today as the inspiration behind an award or two. Chris and his love of a different Chris? Perhaps. Yeah. Perhaps so. Yeah.

I would be dedicating one of today's selections to Chris Ryan. Thanks for Jay Ryan. Great pick. Loved that episode. I am going, perhaps unsurprisingly, with the next episode, episode four, The Red Dragon and the Gold, which I just fucking loved. Oh, it was great. And re-watching the season, I loved it even more. I...

Thought that everything at Rook's Rest was obviously extraordinary. I will be, spoiler alert, but perhaps unsurprisingly, returning to some of the dragon-centric happenings in that battle and other categories today. So I won't linger on that for long. But everything with Sunfire and Maelys and Vhagar, the reveal for book readers of what Aemond did, Kristen waking to a world on fire, tremendous stuff.

Before that, I really, as you know, loved the Kristen Duskendale sequence and remained quite haunted by the you should thank me for it moment, which was just so disturbing. I thought that Gawain's challenge to Kristen of they will not accept it because it's fucking madness was

Felt like this really key moment and key idea in the season. It's a great, you know, I think obviously among the fandom, mileage varied over the course of the season of when people were ready for Damon to move out of the Vision era of his arc. But this was like, I mean, this was the height of like, woo, everything that's happening here is fun and interesting and cool. The Rhaenyra throne room vision.

vision and then just the actual meetings right we get to meet oscar tully in this episode adult will and blackwood the first real conversation not the little uh the the little mini dispatch in the godswood in the prior episode but the first real conversation of substance between alice and and and damon including our uh our instant favorite a girl child

A ghetto child. You bounced on your knee. You bounced on your knee. Sensational stuff. This is the episode with that sensational Alicent-Aegon conversation that we referenced routinely throughout the rest of the season. Alicent and Laris discussing the histories, that lingering effect on Alicent after her encounter with Rhaenyra and the Sept in the episode you picked. Aemon dunking on Aegon and High Valyrian at the council meeting. Just amazing.

amazing stuff. And then of course, like with Jason Renier, I wanted a little more Jason, my selections than I ultimately got. Cause I thought it was a great J season, but this episode had some good Jace moments, the challenges, the naked challenges to Renier at the painted table. And then of course the moment where Renier finally shares the song of ice and fire egg on stream with her son. So that's my pick. My runner up was episode seven, the red sewing, but yeah.

Episode four. That's my favorite at the end of the season. I think they make a really good pair because a lot of the things you talk about, like, Aemon's vengeance on Aegon is a payoff of what happens in episode three. Or, you know, Rhaenyra in the throne room is the follow-up from, like, the first glimpse of Rhaenyra we get in episode three. And, like, a lot, you know, or Larys and Alicent is a fallout of Alicent and Rhaenyra and the Sept in episode three. So it's, like, yeah, really good, like, set them up, knock them down sort of

dynamic between those two episodes. So, yeah. Absolutely. That might return as a key bit of inspiration in the next category. Do we have some bookends that might come up here? Some smuggles, perhaps? We'll see. Our next category is Is the Pudding Now Served? Best scene. What was your favorite scene of the season, Joanna? This was a hard one. This was hard. I do have a smuggle here, actually. Um...

It's my only smuggle. Genuinely. Actually, same. I could not pick between Rhaenyra and Daemon and Rhaenyra and Alicent in the finale. Is that the same as yours? I have... My smuggle is two Rhaenyra-Daemon scenes. Oh, the, like, big fight and then... Yeah, sure. That's good. I picked the fight. Yeah. But obviously then felt compelled to mention the payoff of the reconciliation. I think those are great picks. But yeah, for me... And it was so funny when I... We'll be citing this, like,

that Ryan Connell did sort of like a little later in the pod, but like one of my favorite moments of that presser when I was like, I was like, you know, there's this great Rhaenyra and Alyson scene, this great Rhaenyra and Daemon scene, sort of like blah, blah. He's like, well, they are our three main characters, right? I was like, sure. Yes. Okay. Did you say, excuse me, Larys is the protagonist of this experience? How dare you? With Viserys nearly a ghost now, these are our three main characters and the way, you know, and I would argue that,

If I had to pick one as our main character who's on all the posters, I would say it's Rhaenyra. But like, so Rhaenyra and the two most important relationships in her life with Daemon, with Alicent in this finale, I just found perfectly acted, really satisfying to have Rhaenyra and Daemon back together again after like such a long separation. Similarly, Rhaenyra and Alicent, we've only seen, we only saw them twice together in the season as a whole. So like,

You know, there were times in the season when I was impatient for, you know, more of this. And so I'm not saying that I am a fan on a whole about sort of like the way that characters were dispersed, but also our adapters were working with what happened in the book. So, you know, all of that is true. But it did feel like just joyous and like relief to have these characters interact again in the finale. So, yeah. Yeah. Great picks.

I can't believe it's the only smuggle. What discipline, what restraint? I'm amazed. I love those picks. This was, I think of all the, the, all of the categories today, the hardest one for me, just because there were so many like showcase showstopper scenes across the season. But ultimately I, I went with the Damon and Runeara fight, the separation in episode two,

Because of the way that that feels like this crucial moment at the heart of things coming in all directions, right? It's like so many tributaries of the river are flowing into and out of that. I don't really know how bodies of water work, though I do enjoy looking at them and being near them and find that they bring peace. Odds in a row will I mention or allude to a body of water? I guess all of them until I'm actually at the ocean.

You know how you like to repeat how much I hated a crevice and love an ocean vista? Yes. To the point that like our listeners are a little like, so Dave posted something on Twitter about how he thought I was going to be upset with something in the movie Alien Romulus, which I hadn't seen yet. But he has subsequently told me what it was and I am upset. But all of the responses from our listeners is like, is it a crevice? Is it a crevice? Is it a crevice? Is it a crevice? You abhor a crevice. Everyone knows.

And I was talking to my friend Diana about this. She's like, do you mean crevasse? And I was like, genuinely, I don't know the difference between a crevasse and a crevasse. I thought it was just pronunciation. Crevasse is just a glacier crevasse. And would I dislike a glacier crevasse more than just like a rocky crevasse? Probably, because it's cold and slippy. Like harder to get a grip to get out of it. Could you melt it though more easily with like your body heat?

It depends how big the glacier is, I would say. Like how much is your poor dying bird competing against a massive glacier? Yeah, maybe if global warming is on your side, you can melt your way out of that glacier. But I don't know. I would say crevasse worse than crevice probably in general.

You know, we learned something new about you today. That's a beautiful thing. I love it. Great stuff. What if you took the thing I love, a body of water, and froze it and put it on top of the thing I hate, a crevice? You get a crevasse. So, you know, it's a cruel twist of fate. Life is full of these complexities, you know? Jeez. Boy. Speaking of complexities, real scenes from America. Stuff from Damon and Rhaenyra. This was great. The blood and cheese fallout. Really building from that look at the council meeting with

Rhaenyra clocks that Daemon is for the first time ever quiet. That was just such a great, delicious moment. I loved it. And the way that, like, Viserys, as we talked about at length at the time, was so present in that argument, even, of course, in death and absentia, I thought was just brilliant.

Brilliant. That do you accept me as your queen and ruler idea that then had such a bearing on both of their arcs the rest of the season. And, you know, the way that they each said things that really you

shouldn't be able to forget or take back, but somehow managed to work their way back to each other. Like we talk about this a lot in stories that can be the true test of a relationship. Can you make it to the other side of an exchange like that? And then, yeah, we build toward that, like really, really rewarding and emotional payoff in the finale, which we heard at the top of this episode, fantastic stuff. So I have found myself thinking about that scene a lot since the season ended. And, uh,

Thought it was great. Stuck with me. Loved it. A lot of contenders for this category. I ended up eliminating some picks just because I have them in other categories, but a lot of choices. You love a divorce story. You love a divorce story. As a child of divorce, I love a marriage being tested on screen. Okay. Time for our next superlative. To war then! To war then! It's the season MVP. Will we agree? No, I doubt it. Oh, interesting, because you're picking Lyris. No, I'm not.

I decided to... This is the one I think that I decided to think slightly outside the box. I decided to go with the VFX team. Oh, love this. Just because I...

We have, but I don't know if we have enough paid homage to what an incredible job they did with the dragons this season. We talked a lot about our pal, Paula Fairfield, who does the audio, which is huge for determining the personality of these dragons. But having to design all of these dragons and make them look so distinctive and imbue them with so much personality and so much emotion, which I know is going to come back in a few of your picks, is

It's so key because, you know, as we mentioned with Thrones, Drogon was always like a great design, but it was really like Drogon and then Rhaegal and Viserion are also there. Like it wasn't really like we really felt like we understood distinctive personalities or really even like super distinctive styles until one of them became a zombie, like between the other two dragons, right? So just, I can't even count on one hand how many dragons, new dragons we got this season. It's incredible. So I'm going to shout out

Pixamondo, WetaFX, RodeoFX, RVX, Zoic Studios, Red Visual Effects, and Supervisor Dottie Inarson and Tom Horton for their work on this season. Takes a village. Takes many VFX houses. I love that.

Yeah. It's a great one. Uh, fantastic pick. I love it. Thanks. I went in the completely opposite direction. This is like the, uh, just a, I'm cruising a fastball down the middle with this one. Cause I was a little worried both because I, I, I,

feel good about this pick. And it is something I believe, but also because I was a little bit worried that Rhaenyra might be like underrepresented in my selections. And so Rhaenyra is my MVP of the season. Obviously, it's an astonishing performance from Emma Darcy, just sensational. And, you know, for Rhaenyra, the character, one of the real...

delightful experiences of this season when we talk about the nature of adaptation is how many surprises were waiting for us in every episode because as we've talked about many times like so much of this stretch in the book is like Rhaenyra was you know in another room

Being sad. Working through it. And so to see all of the ways that Rhaenyra impacted key events and participated in moments that never made their way to the history was just like a really scintillating and stimulating part of watching the show as like fans of the story. And, you know, this gets back to what you were saying actually in your pick for best scene. Like, well, these are our main characters.

Rhaenyra was present in and a participant in some of the most consequential and awe-inspiring scenes of the season. The Alicent scenes, the Daemon scenes, the Jace scene, when Jace makes the, like, please don't go the army of bastards, team bastards route. I mean, that is just a sensational scene. And then all of these moments...

real heft and impact in relationships that are newer either to us or to the characters than like we're invested right in Rhaenyra, Alyssa and Rhaenyra Daemon but Rhaenyra and Mysaria is new to us on screen and we were really gripped by it. Obviously, Bela has been in Rhaenyra's life for a while but there were a couple moments between them that really

really, really stuck with us. A very new relationship, like Adam making his way into Rhaenyra's life was so interesting to watch in real time. And then you have obviously all of these different emotional notes that Rhaenyra is hitting over the course of the season. And it's one of the reasons that episode seven was so successful because when we get to see Rhaenyra in that I cannot gainsay what the gods have laid before me moment and Rhaenyra putting her hand on

on Vermithor's snout and the look on Rhaenyra's face, I mean, it's just, it warps its way into your brain in a way that you know is going to be, like, lasting. So, Rhaenyra's my pick. That's incredible. If anyone has any doubt, I sent this over to someone on Reddit. AcceptableMix6364 is the Redditor's name. Broke down character screen time by, like, hours and minutes and stuff like that. And, you know, Rhaenyra...

Hour 44 minutes, 20 seconds. By far the most screen time. Allison second most with it. But, like, with nearly 40 minutes less. So, like, Rainier is...

our main character for sure. I don't know. I don't think that was up for debate. I just thought it was interesting. And like those three characters, Alison, Damon, and Rhaenyra all clock in over an hour. And then the next underneath that is like Aegon II and Kristen who are like 39 minutes, 38 minutes total for this season. So like it's a significant gap between those three main characters. 39 minutes for Kristen. That's like seven hours to a few for Chris Ryan. Yeah.

I think that's a nice transition into our next award, Joanna. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It is my fault, I think, that you have forgotten to fear me. Most improved player. I think you thought I was going to pick Kristen or we had like discussed. I just assumed you thought I would pick Kristen. I didn't pick Kristen. I did. Don't worry.

And I didn't pick Massaria, though those are two that are... That's who I thought you would pick. Those are two that are interesting to think about. Actually, I'm going to give it to Tom Glen Carney. And it's not that Tom Glen Carney wasn't, as Aegon II, wasn't good in season one. He just didn't have a ton of opportunity. There were very few scenes, actually, with Tom Glen Carney as Aegon in season one. And also, we were dealing with really rough storylines for him in season one and stuff like that. And so Tom Glen Carney...

No, and we knew this as book readers watching him, knew that he only had a few episodes, four episodes before he was going to be like...

very badly burnt for the rest of his time on this show. And so he was just eating, eating it up, eating up every inch of screen time. Also, the writers knew that they had to do a lot of like a lot of work on Aegon this season. Now, has he healed a little quicker than we maybe thought he would? Yes. I mean, but he's still, he's still, rest in peace, the dragon cock. Um,

But like, but then even then, even his like moaning, groaning, burnt acting was like incredibly good and effective. So I just think that Tom Glenn Carney really came from someone that I wasn't paying that much attention to, to someone where I was like,

this is one of the best performances of the season incredibly charismatic and terribly captivating and now engendering a lot of empathy in me for a character that I was like pretty hardened against so you know I think Tom deserves his flowers for that

I love this pick. I would say that Agon was like maybe my runner-up for MVP of the season. Every Agon scene was interesting. So good. But yeah, I love going with Tom and Agon in Most Improved Player here. This is where I will be honoring Chris Ryan by selecting another Chris. Kristen Cole.

I just can't. I mean, we talked about this a lot at the end of the season on Talk of Thrones and in the deep dives. Like, I really...

Kind of on the one hand, can't believe, but on the other hand, can because it feels so true to a Thronesian tradition. How riveted I was by Kristen's scenes by the end of the season. And with, again, multiple scene partners. Like, you know, if we think about the early season where we go from watching Kristen and Aemond plotting or the small council or the great Kristen-Agon-Otto scene where Kristen is named Hand and lets it, like, amidst that little, like,

And then, of course, like...

An incredible Kristen. I mean, I wasn't going to bring up the haircut because we do have a wig wash category coming and I wanted to leave that to you. But an incredible Kristen Allison season and an incredible Kristen Gawain season with Allison. Like it feels part of the way that I can feel the passage of time of the season is when I think back to their sex scenes. Like that actually really feels like a long time ago now, but what a time it was sword cleaning. Yeah.

The many courtyard interactions building toward the post-Rook's rest. Their armor melted. There were men walking that were on fire. We have given the Ward of the Dragons moment. That was one of my favorite scenes of the season. And the Kristen Gawain fireside chat.

In the finale. Yeah. Was sensational and made me so eager to spend more time with that duo and to see where Kristen's arc goes from here and what surprises might await. I just am genuinely, this doesn't mean I'm rooting for Kristen necessarily or like love him, but I am

invested in his story. And that is not necessarily how I felt about Kristen Cole at the end of season one. And so that feels like a notable achievement to me. I completely agree. He definitely deserves to be here. I think also just thinking about the writing for the season, like, you know, we have our notes here and there about things they didn't get quite right. But the idea, the idea to take Gawain Hightower, a very minor character in the book who has been

something to do in King's Landing and making him Kristen Cole's main sea partner for, you know, um, yeah.

much of the season. That being said, and to go back to the runtime thing, you and I were like astonished to find out that Wayne Hightower had fewer than 10 minutes of screen time total this season. What a great job Freddie Fox did sort of imprinting on us. Stay tuned for my next pick. Okay, sorry. I didn't mean to keep stepping on your picks. Freddie always makes every second count.

It's amazing. Yeah. So, I mean, just like that was such smart writing to be like, okay, we're going to have to send Chris and Cole off on campaign. We could have him staring moodily into the middle distance if we want to, or we could give someone for him to talk to. And that's Gawain Hightower. Great choice. Great stuff. I love it. All right. Speaking of Gawain, I assume you knew I was going to pick him for the next category, though. There are multiple contenders that I think you might pick. So I'm excited to see who you actually went with here. Oh, yeah.

You make an art of provoking me. Who are you going with for most impactful new character? I mean, I think they did a great job with a bunch of new characters this season. But I was stuck on your wording. Like, I know you're not going to hold me to any wording necessarily, but you said impactful, not like favorite. And so because it's impactful, I went with Atlas Reverse. Yeah.

If you said favorite, it might be like Simon Strong and Ulf duking it out for that title. Those were the three that I assumed were your finalists here. But Alice, in terms of impact on the story, not just the dream therapy or the prophecy vision that we get in the finale, stuff like that, but just the introduction of witchcraft and magic and old godliness-

uh, into the storyline. I think she's so key for opening up an entire realm of possibility in terms of what they could do with the supernatural on this show. So for impact, yes, Alice refers for inspiring me to offend all of Scotland with my impression of Gail Rankin's beautiful accent, Alice Rivers. So, yeah. Oh man. Uh,

I assumed this would be like a source of torment for you, whether to pick Alice or Ulf or Simon. But Alice is a great pick. I don't know that you can make the impactful argument for Simon. You could definitely for Ulf. But yeah. Impact comes in many forms. Impact can be on the plot and the story. Impact can be on our hearts. Joy of my heart. So I won't be selecting with that in mind.

The character I genuinely enjoyed spending time with the most this season, Gawain Hightower, brought to life in unsurprisingly riveting fashion by one of the icons of our time, Freddie Fox. We were guessing without actually knowing on the finale deep dive, like how many minutes do we think Gawain had? And I think I said 17 and you said it was probably like around like 10. And to hear that it was less than 10,

actually then made me feel more emboldened, weirdly, perhaps, to pick him because I'm like, every second left a mark. Every second left an impression. And some of that was on the plot and us understanding where we were heading or should we be heading there. Like the just question and even like a little moment, you know, oh, Arenal is to the west. Like with a half a sentence, he was able to set something up for another character quite effectively. The humor was,

Unsurprisingly, right? Wonderful comic performer. But the heart, this was the like, holy shit, I can't believe we got this and how just really like cherishing how poignant it was. I mean, the Gawain-Allison courtyard scene was in the consideration set for me for favorite scene of the season. I just thought it was incredible. And we got that emotion and that glimpse into...

a character's backstory who we don't know. We had spent no time with Gawain and that like you get on with it, don't you? And there isn't any choice. It just so effectively told us so much about his history and his life and his relationship to his family and the realm. And then that gift that he gave Alicent, like,

of the he's kind and the I'm sure you did your best. I just thought that scene was exceptional and I can't wait to be back with Gawain. I'm picking, Chris is going to be like, I fucking incepted you and I got you. I have a lot of like team green picks even though I remain and I will just state it once more for the record, team black. But I did pick, I did go team green for like a lot of my picks because those scenes were great. They're entertaining. Chris isn't wrong that team green is the most, like I think when Chris is like pro team green, he's like pro entertaining television.

and it's hard to argue with that. It's not really about the team green platform. It's not about morality. All I think for Chris, Chris is happy to watch like shitty characters doing shitty things. Yeah, I mean, I think that's a great point. I just rewatched all of Slow Horses because Rob and I are going to be covering season four on Prestige. Best show on TV? No, not the best show on TV, but like... It's my favorite show on TV. It is not your favorite show. Yes, it is. You like it more than House of the Dragon.

Oh, yeah. Yeah. That doesn't mean it's like more important in my life. Okay. Well, you know what? It's my favorite show to watch. I would like to go back in time and not argue with you because it's a wonderful show. It's a wonderful pick for your favorite show on television. It's a tremendous show. And Freddie Fox, such an absolute smash. Also has less screen time in that show than I had remembered. You know what I mean? Shows up for like...

I don't know, five scenes total every season and just like crushes every single one of them. The great example to me is King Hugo in The Great. Oh, sure. Because he has so few scenes, but they're like, you're like, should this character have a spinoff and an entire cinematic universe? The Great, a wonderful show also that people should watch. Fantastic stuff. Okay, next category. Maileys must gorge and rest, as must I. I like to do things together. I like to watch people doing things together. And so it is time for favorite duo or...

Grouping. Which set of characters did you like watching together? You and I might have the same one for this. I'm not sure. I think it has to go to Laris and Aegon at the end of the... Yeah, yeah, yeah. Do you want to say why? Their scenes were magic. Really good. The...

I mean, obviously we got more moments than just the two primary ones that we'll talk about here, you know, from the way that Larius, like after Aegon sat the throne in the premiere, started to work him and plant the hand. He was your father's hand seeds or like watching them in physical therapy together in the penultimate episode, et cetera. But I think the real, this is the reason that we were making this pick. Data points are the sixth episode and the finale because the, yeah,

the wear it like armor scene, right? And they will underestimate you and this will be your advantage was that would have been my pick for my favorite scene of the season. If I didn't know I was going to pick Laris and Aegon and talk about it here. And then, you know, I think that finale scene, which just, we talked about for so long in our finale breakdown, um,

It was incredible. It was just absolutely incredible. And all of the emotion and insecurity and ambition that is at play for both of the characters seamlessly in an exchange like that. And the performances were exceptional. So yeah, this was actually like, I think this might have been my easiest pick of the whole set. I'm starting here, Larissa Nagon. And Orwell, who was also there. Yeah, I...

And also in Slow Horses, as you know, because I sent you a screenshot. Orwell pops up in Slow Horses season one. But like, yeah, I just, I think that it's funny when we were talking about this on Talk of Thrones and Chris is like, so do you think Laris is like playing him or do you think he's like being genuine? And you and I both said like both, you know, and then Chris is like, oh, so you fell for it. I'm like, I genuinely think Laris.

That while, yes, Laris is playing the shit out of Aegon at every single opportunity, he is also, Matthew Needham at least as an actor, has chosen to also have Laris be authentic in plenty of the things that he's describing. Which makes him so much more interesting to me with love and respect than a little finger. Because...

We got Baelish talking about Catelyn and the things that he wanted and the things that he didn't have. But not... Ian Gillen's a great performer, but not in this vulnerable of a way. And so I just... I like this nuance to our schemer character a lot. And I hope we get even more of it going forward. Yeah. And this also felt like a real...

evolution for the character between seasons. So love that. Okay. I knew we would have the same pick and we did great stuff. Next. I did not think they would be so eager to die. Best set piece. This is so easy for me. I genuinely think there's based on my understanding of your definition of set piece. I think there's only two possible answers.

the red sewing and Rook's Rest. And I got to give it to Rook's Rest. The red sewing is incredible, but Rook's Rest, I think the red sewing is incredible for its adaptive choices. Rook's Rest, even though we have the adaptive choice of like making Amon's attack

deliberately against Aegon and all this sort of stuff that, that added wrinkle. It's also just like such a highly anticipated moment and leading up to it. And, you know, I said this on the finale pod, I've said it before, but,

blood and cheese in the cargo bowl as like adapt adaptations of like anticipated moments. I was just sort of like, okay, this is fine. This is pretty good. Whatever. This just really delivered on something they really needed to deliver on this, like promise of dragon battles, which is just going to be, you know, we're in a Targaryen civil war. It's just going to be a lot of what's going forward. This is a proof of concept. Can they do this in a way that makes the action? Yeah. We'd seen Vhagar versus poor Arax, but like actually,

The action is legible. The ability to capture the emotion of the actors on the back of the dragon, to be able to capture the emotions of the dragons themselves, the connection between Rhaenys and Maelys as they both go to their deaths is just close up there with some of the most emotional stuff that we get this season. And...

Yeah, I just thought it looked incredible, felt incredible.

you know, and I was just like so pleased that they really knocked it out of the park with this, which I think they really had to, to make us feel like the rest of the show is just going to be like that kind of exhilarating and emotionally rewarding. So Rook's Rest, maybe. Great pick. Great pick. I'm going the other way. I'm going red sewing. Great. I think in part because I have Rook's Rest as my favorite episode and will be returning to that battle in another category. But also because as...

much as I was looking forward to Rook's dress and as monumental of a like pivot point in the story as that is, um,

I can't lie. Like I was looking forward to the sowing of the seeds more than anything else this season. Okay. So I, I really, you know, it differs on screen from how it all unfolds and the text, like the sea smoke, the pairing moving up, et cetera, but all in a way that worked for me. And I just like, when I think back to this season, you know, when I think back to season one, now there are certain moments, certainly certain lines that I like quoting, but certain visuals that just instantly associate with the season. Yeah.

And for me, one of those moments for this season, for season two, is Vermithor emerging from the shadow behind her. It's just instantly iconic. Absolutely. And I mean, I do think Rookstrasse had a couple of those too. It's...

That applies to both of them. They did a great job with both of these. Vhagar's wings just, like, emerging above the tree line there. Definitely. But, like, I just thought, in addition to being visually splendid, and in addition to the action being effectively heart-pounding in the red sewing...

I thought that this was a great character moment for Rhaenyra and what it showed us about what Rhaenyra was willing to do. And I also thought it was in here. This is going to be such an on brand thing to say.

great character moment for the dragons. And like in a way that I think is important, you know, we felt what was distinct about Vermithor and Silverwing in that stretch. And then if we expand the sewing beyond just the actual end of episode seven, the actual red sewing set piece and include like Seasmoke seeking out Adam and many other moments across the season, we can really feel good old sheepy in the finale. Yeah.

You know, we can really feel the personalities of the dragons this season in a way that feels like so not only like an achievement, but such an important, sacred thing inside of this world. So that's just something I'm grateful for and really happy we got. That's my pick. Great, great picks. Both of our picks. I feel like we're going to have the same one for the next category, but let's find out.

See to those pigs. Most impactful location. I assume we both picked sharp point. Is the realms delight, the real realms delight sharp point.

Our favorite vacation destination, Sharpsburg. Oh, man. I feel like your category name is a spoiler. I mean, it's Harrenhal. It has to be Harrenhal. How is it not Harrenhal? Yeah. My runner up, just to throw something else in the mix, is the Dragonstone Library because I thought that was a stunning set. But yeah, I mean, it has to be Harrenhal. What about the gantry at Dragonstone? As you know, I love and have always loved...

a gantry and I have always known what that is. I know it's your lifelong passion. Your your love of gantries. Oh, man. Yeah, it's got to be Harrenhal. Easy. What did you end up loving most about Harrenhal as a location? Was it the gods would? Was it the God's eye? Was it the fucking incredible? Do we talk enough about that dining room table? I'm not sure we do.

I just think, like, the way in which every – like, shout out Jim Clay – like, the way in which every location obviously, like, feels like a complete place, not just, like, a series of disconnected rooms. Because they basically built complete, like, labyrinths and rabbit's warrens that are these sets. Yeah.

I don't know, like just goat stuff, bad guano, rain dripping in, like just the overall haunted vibe of it all. I just, I thought it was a wonderful payoff. I mean, we've been to Heron Hall before in Game of Thrones, but we weren't using Heron Hall the way there, the way we were using it here, which was as like a gothic haunted mansion location. And I just think they absolutely crushed it with that prompt. We are aligned. Wonderful. Next. Next.

I can have to make a more? Most memorable quote. And yes, you can just pick the category name. I can have more? I could have gone profound here. Did you go profound? Because I didn't. I did. I was really tempted to go with some humorous lines. Like, I honestly really wanted to pick I thought the dragons was gods or like I did not think they would be so eager to die. I thought they was gods.

I honestly just wanted to hear you say it again, honestly. But no, ultimately, I did not go with those. I went with something else. What about you? Did you go with an old singer? I went with something kind of silly, but I just think about it all the time. Tell me. It's when David says, you know, whatever he says, like, what do you call the queen's husband? And Sir Simon says, king. Consort. Consort.

Great one. King Consort. Just like an all-time wonderful Simon Russell Beale delivery of a wonderful moment. So, yeah. Did you consider picking the moment when Simon just shushes Damon like he's a little baby? Yeah.

Or just Simon clapping in the background. Yeah. King Ellipses Consort is my choice here. And Simon, you are a legend. I'm so delighted that, you know, viewers at home seem to love Simon as much as like I was hoping they would based on the fact that they cast Simon Russell Beals. So, yeah. Let me tell you something. I also have a Sir Simon Strong line for you. Yeah. Yeah.

The thing I thought most about is like a unifying theme of the season. Came from Simon. Oh, well, the answer to that is lost in time. Sin begets sin begets sin. And it was just so...

subtly and beautifully delivered, but I thought about it almost every scene and certainly every episode after that. And it informs now when I go back to the beginning of the story, how I'll think about that as well. So that's the line that ultimately stuck with me the most. But again, this was a hard category because there were a lot of great lines this season. This is not the last time I'll be picking Simon in a category. I might be tempted in future episodes

If I get something wrong about lore or a quote and you get it right, which is often the case, I'll just pull a Damon and be like, oh, well, who can remember? Frackin' Black Widow, who can remember? Man, Damon. Is Simon the winner of your next category? No, but Damon is. The Warworks of Barbarity. Top 10.

sex thing. And, you know, we had a little journey in our Google Doc last night. Like, what did we call our... We had a sex category in our Rapid Fire Awards in season one and looked back at the old docs and it was called The Doctrine of Exceptionally Weird Sex Stuff, which...

You know, it's great. And I miss doing this. And I have this award every week. So here we are. We have a whole season to consider, but kind of like a sex light season. So actually not that much. I know. We'll talk about this in the book look ahead section. What are the opportunities for horniness in the future? There's about to be a lot of fighting and a lot of, you know, mortal peril. So will that result in more sex, less sex? We'll find out. Okay. Top sex thing. For me, I'm going to give it...

to Corlys and Rhaenys. Great. This is my runner up. Perfect. I was hoping you would pick this. In bed together. When Rhaenys is talking about Daemon and Rhaenyra and she says, neither can he allow her to command him. And Corlys says, I have on occasion found that to be quite enjoyable.

And the mind reels to all sorts of possibilities. And we just, you know, this again, this is leading up to Rook's rest. And those of us who are book readers were like, tick, tick, tick. The clock is counting down on Reese. That's another really strong thing they did this season in terms of like giving us a lot of great Rainey's content before we lost her in episode four. I think they did a tremendous job leading up to all of that. So, yeah.

Great pick. I do regret to inform you that I will be selecting Damon dreaming that he's fucking his own mom. I'm sorry. But when I think back on the season and I think about sex stuff, this one left an impression. It's tough to top. They went for it. Sure.

We saw Damon Targaryen dream that he was eating out his own mom and wrapping his arms around her as she said that he was made to wear the crown and then said as he swiped a bloodied hand across her throat, my favorite son. That was a real journey that we went on together watching this television show. Yeah.

Just an incredible time. The number of texts we got from Chris Ryan that were like, wait, was that his mom? That was genuinely one of my favorite memories of the season was texting with you and Chris after we watched this. We had a lot to process. Wait, no, but seriously, guys. Chris, it was. It was. It was. Boy. Okay. Bit of a tonal shift here between categories. It does not befit a prince to pout.

Most emotional moment. I'm going to give it to the pouting prince himself, Ceres Velaryon, for when he comes back from the wall and he's trying to deliver his report to Rhaenyra like a big boy would. But he's so sad because Luke is dead and he's trying to keep it together and he's tearing up and Rhaenyra comes and gives him a hug. In that episode, which, as you all recall, Rhaenyra has no lines there.

but is in a lot of scenes just being incredible. Yeah. Jace trying to be a grownup, but crying for his brother at the same time. And I don't think it ever like, other than perhaps what you're about to talk about, which I think is, is my guess. And I think it's like another really good moment. I don't know that there are many moments this season, as I was thinking about this, that like brought me to tears. Yeah.

Do you know, like it wasn't, there's a very upsetting death. We're going to talk about that. There's some like shocking things that happens, very funny things that happen. But I wasn't like overwhelmed with emotion. But I was here. This one really got me. So, yeah. Is the other thing on your list that you're hoping I pick the cargo bowl? Yeah. Tremendously emotional moment for me.

I will, in fact, be picking a scene that involves two people with a lifelong bond who somehow made their way into the same room with each other. But I will not be picking the Cargill Bowl. I am picking for my most emotional moment. I think the thing you thought I was going to pick is coming in the next category for me. Yeah. So my most emotional moment, I was in tears watching Rhaenyra and Alicent fight.

In the finale. And like that entire scene is, I think, very moving and very raw and very intense and heavy. But particularly, this is my pick within the pick. You speak as if from a distant dream.

come with me. That just like broke me. It was devastating. And then it was like, we had a very emotional moment talking about it on the pod and you said so many beautiful things. So this is, this is my pick. I just found this so moving and I think it'll be, yeah, I'll be thinking about this for a long time. Great pick. All right. Next, it must be the dragon or perhaps the witch. We'll find out. Who speaks most magical fantasy element?

I have three words. Do you want to guess? It's just wish stuff. Go. Wish stuff. Go. In my witch era, having the best year of the witches that I could possibly have. And, uh,

Yeah. Which stuff go? So good. I'll be going the dragon route here. And this is where I am picking what I think maybe you thought I would be picking in the prior category. Most emotional moment. This is definitely this. This genuinely was the most emotional moment of the season for me without question. But I knew I wanted to pick it here because it represents this larger core idea of like how to center the fantasy elements in this story about war and politics and family dynamic and everything else.

It's Melys looking back at Rhaenys in her final moment, which shattered me. Shattered me, Joanna, into a million pieces, a million little dragon scales. And before that, too, the moments entwined with each other were cutting between

And Rhaenys preparing to mount Maelys in the Dragonmont and like the way that she puts her hands on her and Maelys looks back over her shoulder like we get that over the shoulder look in that moment, that link and bond between them. And then when Sunfire comes out in the dragon pit and like headbutts Aegon, gives him that sweet little nuzzle. Aegon Sunny. Your favorite. Sweet Sunny. Yeah.

My sweet Sonny. I thought that the moments where we felt so keenly and all of the lines in the text, which I love and cherish and love returning to and thinking about and quoting, where the idea that we cannot understand the mind of a dragon or cannot understand the...

the nature of the bond, the particular lore and mythology and actual explanation of her driving forces behind the bond. In those moments, you understood everything you needed to about what is at the heart of that relationship. And I thought it was beautiful. I loved it. Loved it. Very good. Sad. Okay. Next. You have no choice but to submit.

The most scintillating use of score. Do you have a favorite musical moment from this season, Joanna? This was the easiest one, I thought, by far. Which was, because I said this before, I do think there are moments, you know, the like, I'm going to try to do an impression of it again and get it better this time. The, ah, ah.

That stuff. That's good. I don't think Ramin Djawadi has quite matched the highs. Not even actually gotten quite close to the highs of the Game of Thrones score with the House of the Dragon score. So in the finale when we get all must choose and we're sampling Game of Thrones scores in here and we've got Reigns of Castamere in here and we've got Stark theme in here and all that sort of stuff like that. That

That really got to me. Got me. That's my pick as well. I think it's easy. I mean, what are the runners up? The runners up are like the hearing the Stark theme in the opening episode, perhaps. Or the beginning of episode two. Those are the other contenders. Exactly. I did weirdly really, I was really struck by the score in Allison's trip to Bigger Bathtub. Something about that really. What are we going with Bigger Bathtub?

bigger bathtub or pond as Chris requested where do we land bigger bathtub is funny every time oh man because every time we say big bathtub it makes me think of like the bathtub lobby you know like the whole conspiracy of the bathtub manufacturers oh no have you been influenced again by big bathtub perhaps perhaps I have I do love a bathtub oh my god I love a bath love to listen to the watch in the bath I know you do

That's me time. All right. We have two awards left. Fit watch. Who's your drip Lord of the season. I will confess to you right now that I completely miss this in the notes for some reason, but the answer is so easy. It's laughable. It's Simon strong. Yeah. When I said Simon was coming back for it. I think this is it. I was like, where I forgot that we were doing these like lush, uh,

purple velvet threaded with gold and more layers and drapes than like leaves on the cabbages that his cooks are preparing were splendid oh yeah truly no notes why is harrenhal in a crumbling uh disarray because simon has to get his fit on so there we go why are the coffers empty relatable content great stuff um

Speaking of visual splendor, I'd like to take us now to our final award. And it is, of course, I mean, what else could it be? Wig Watch. TM with Joanna Robinson. TM. Do you wear wigs? Usually this is like a corner where I critique things and I do. Here's my main critique of the season. This is the wig that I would like to see improved in season three.

And it is Alice Rivers, who I, like, I love the length and, like, how it hangs down to her waist and the curly ends. But her hairline, the edges there, it's hard because Gilrincan has, like, a low natural hairline. So I think it's hard to lay a wig on her. And I know that, like, I don't know the timing of it. If her, like, bleached hair that she has right now for Cabaret was, like, at all a factor, I don't know. But, like...

I would like to see something a little bit better on the hairline for her next season, but the length and all the rest of the witchiness of it, top tier, great. And then I would just say overall, I think the blonde Targaryen wigs were so much better this season. I think like Reyne's

didn't have that weird beehive wig this season. I think the grief wigs we got for Rhaenyra in episode one, or Daemon as he continues to lose his marbles in Harrenhal. I thought all of that stuff worked really well. Aemon's sleek flat iron Legolas versus Aegon's I woke up like this. All of that, I thought the Targaryen wigs were really good this season. But yeah.

Which stuff deserves slightly better wig in season three? So that is my wish. I love it. Grief wig is just a great turn of phrase. Remarkable stuff from you as always. Grief wig is almost as important to me as depression beard, which is like a true passion of mine. Of course. Yeah. I am not a wig scholar. And so I usually have nothing to contribute in wig watch, but I just want to take a moment to say, like, I'm really glad we've mentioned this at the beginning of the season.

And in our 900 trailer breakdowns, glad we left the Jace wig behind and went with the natural curls. Fantastic choice. I, I saw an interview with the, the hair and makeup person, um,

And I guess it was like last minute. The wig that they fitted Harry Collette with in season one was like a last minute. I forget what happened. He cut his hair. I don't know. But it was like no one was happy with that. Like no one was like, yeah, we really crushed you with that mullet in season one. And so the hair person asked Harry Collette to grow out his hair.

as long as he could and he got it like it was much longer than it wound up being in the show like his if you follow him on Instagram like he got it like quite long and so she trimmed it up and she like she's like took it to the writer she's like I think we should go with this and they like us were like surely you cannot grow that much hair in such a short passage of time and she was like come on

It looks so good, though. And they were like, it does look really good. We'll ask a question once and then we'll all move on. Yeah. Yeah. Looks great. Great stuff. Okay. Those were the season superlatives. Nice trip down memory lane. Already feels like a long time ago. It's been a week and a half. Wonderful to return to Westeros. We're not done yet. We've got a few. We're going to do a little mini mailbag here before we get to the book look ahead. I said more of those. Duty is sacrifice. It eclipses all things.

even blood all men of honor must pay its price okay now it's time for us to perform our duty and that is of course by answering some mailbag questions uh before we get into the mailbag i would love our listeners in case just in case they haven't heard it i don't i don't know i can't remember if you've been doing it on the midnight boys steve is an incredible craig stark impression uh it's so much better than mine steve will you will you hit us with that

Starks never forget their oars. Beautiful. Loved it. Thank you, Stephen. Steve is an

uncanny impressionist. Like, we get these voice memos on our phones. Like, all of us will be in there, like, doing our own, like, funny little impressions and Steve's like, here's a Rada-level masterclass and then a regional accent and we're all like, pack it up, let's go home. Okay. That's far too good. Thank you, Joe. You're welcome, Steve. You're the best. Okay, mailbag. Do you want me to read these questions? Tremaine asks, love the show. All I want to know is, what are the Hot D GOT spinoffs

that no one but House of R is asking for. Okay. Great question. These are spoiler-free questions that we have some mailbags sort of sprinkled into our book look-ahead question. So this is still safe in terms of book stuff. Yeah. We're really just here to talk about the Orioles, as you'll discover in a few minutes. Mallory, you want to go? I am going to redefine the parameters of the question slightly and make it Talk the Thrones instead of House of R, and then I will be selecting. Okay.

The daily Kristen and Gawain travel log. Wow. I want these as webisodes. I do. A lot of love on this episode. I don't think we got enough time with them at the end, and I am yearning. This is like the yearning tendrils for me. I want to check in with them every day. I want like a two and a half minute webisode every day to like know what they're up to between seasons. So that's my pick. Did you ever watch that wine show where like...

It was Matthew Reese and Matthew Goode, right? But I wanted to as an enthusiast. Yeah, just watching them travel around. I think it was just called The Wine Show. Traveling around, drinking wine for Gwaine and Coles, right? That's what we want for them. Sounds fantastic. Or they could be very at peace with what you just said. You know that Gwaine is an enthusiast of Inns. Oh, Inns.

Checking out the inns. Yeah. And there was only one bed. And what were they going to do? Yeah. Okay. Do you have a pick? Easily. I really think this is, I think you can convince the people to tune in for your show. I do think this is maybe only Asavar wants this, which is Which Stuff Goes starring Alice Rivers and Simon Strong. Based on the way that the listenership was like,

I feel like there was too much witch stuff. I say, give me more witch stuff. As you know, I, I would enthusiastically co-sign this pilot and I would be there throughout the development process. And then I would consume it gladly. You know, when we did our live show, uh, is that where we got COVID and, uh, took us weeks to recover? Who can say? Um, we pitched some, some spinoffs to each other, uh,

that we thought the other person might like and one of the ones that I pitched to you that didn't win, another pitch that involved, it was Bachelor in Paradise, Brendock was what won ultimately. I just don't think that would be good. But one of the pitches I had was Kitchen Confidential Heron Hall and I still think that would be great and I would really like that. Or Ghost Therapy with Alice Rivers. Everyone goes to Ghost Therapy and we get to cure everyone in Westeros. Yes.

That's a great one. And you meet a new person every episode. If it's Which Stuff Go with Alice Rivers and Simon Strong, it's she's a barn owl cursed to live in human form. He's a triplord who just can't keep his house together. I would watch. I would set the season pass. I would watch. This summer on Which Stuff Go. How many episodes you thinking?

Okay. We're going to do three, five episode seasons. Three, five episode seasons. I love it. Yeah. I love it. Leave the people wanting more. Yeah. By the people. Okay. I was going to pitch Homeward Bound, Cheez's dog, but then I realized everyone would want that. Actually, everyone would want that. Where are you trying to get home to though? I don't know. That's what we would find out.

Somewhere, I hope. Because it pains me. It fills me with sorrow to think of that poor pup still sitting there like looking for...

someone to love and someone to love him. It just breaks my fucking heart. You know, he really should have gone in the cart with Aegon and Larys. Don't you think Aegon and Larys... Maybe he did. ...need a little dog? Yeah. Don't you think Aegon needs a little, like, therapy dog? Yeah. I do. Okay. I do. Great selections. I look forward to watching all of them. I was waiting for you to pitch Law & Order The Disappearance of Talia, but you didn't. So, sad. I don't think even House of R is clamoring for that. Okay. Okay.

Maybe Miguel Sapochnik can get that off the ground. Okay. Chase says, before the Hot D finale, viewers were treated to a preview of the Dunkin' Egg series, Night of the Seven Kingdoms. My question is simple. How do you think a series set 100 years after House of the Dragon can exist without spoiling the plot resolution of the earlier series?

Are they simply going to avoid mentioning the end of the Dance of Dragons, even though one of the main characters is a direct descendant of the Targaryen dynasty? I mean, we should say, there's Targaryens all over the joint in Duncan Agan, Night of the Seven Kingdoms, that show. Here's a spoiler for Fire and Blood and Dance of the Dragons that I'm wildly comfortable telling you guys.

Targaryens win. They're Targaryens on the throne when all of this is done. And you know that because all the way up to the Mad King Aerys, we have Targaryens on the throne. Now, if you want real spoilers for the Dance of Dragons, you're going to have to watch Game of Thrones because it is in there. Joffrey very helpfully spoils all of the Dance of Dragons on Game of Thrones. Avoid those scenes if you don't want to know. Shireen talks about it. It's not great. Okay? So, like, that's...

That's in Game of Thrones. I don't think it'll actually be that hard because there's actually a different Targaryen conflict that is the main thing that in the more recent past that Duncan Egg is more ensnarled in. So they have plenty to talk about in terms of Targaryen civil wars. There's a more recent one. So I don't think that they need to even worry about talking about Dance of Dragons. What do you think? Yeah, I'm not concerned about this. I think...

And while, as you noted, there are a ton of Targaryen figures in the story right from the jump and, you know, the state of the Targaryen dynasty is, of course, a part of the interest of the story. It's not like a show that is set at least initially and predominantly in

the novellas that we have so far in the halls of power in that way. It's just a different kind of story. Yeah. You know, we're much more like adventure swords and shields coming of age tale out in the world on the road. Yeah. Yeah. And so I think it's easily avoidable as you noted. I thinking more broadly about like the,

I've shared my concerns about this many times on many prior pods, just the overall emphasis and centrality of the Targaryens in the spinoffs.

And what we know is coming still and like, we're going to get it at guns conquest. And I think a black fire rebellion story is inevitable. If these shows keep doing well, like at some point this will become a larger concern. Like how are these stories stepping on each other or spoiling each other? But I think Duncan egg and, and house of the dragon could coexist pretty, pretty comfortably. Yeah. Not really. It's a good question, but I'm not really worried about it. I don't think the, I don't think the viewership needs to be. And I think there also is that larger question that we talked about in the finale of like,

Again, we're not worried. We think this will be navigable. But how concerned is the House of the Dragon showrunning team with spoiling its own story anyway? I think that's increasingly a question that we have. They don't seem that worried, I guess. Okay. This is a comment more than anything else. We were like, why aren't Jace and Bella having sex? If I were a teen and war was imminent, I certainly would. Kyle wrote Jace a bastard.

Would wait for marriage because, like, Johnny's all torn up about bastardy and wouldn't want to father one with Bela until they're married. I think that's a decent point that I don't think that I had, like, really, you know, put him in the Jon Snow camp of, like, I don't want to father a bastard. That being said, why aren't Bela and Jace married? I mean, this goes to our next question from Liz.

who says, I think this is a really solid point from Liz. What do you think, Malai Rubin?

Yeah, so on the Jace front, I do think it's an interesting note from Kyle and, you know, actually the kind of, like, connection across slices of the universe and characters that I typically really enjoy. Yeah. I don't know that, and I think it's valid and reasonable to assume that Jace would feel that way. I don't know that we should assume that, like, every bastard feels this way, though. I think that Jace's preoccupation with being a bastard makes it a reasonable question to ask. Okay.

Completely. Yeah, I agree. I don't think every bastard feels that way, but Jace, as you say, this is his, maybe even more overtly than John, his preoccupation. I do think, though, fucking your betrothed is different from worrying about fathering a bastard on, you know, to paraphrase Sam, Roz with her perfect tits. Like, it's not the same thing. If Jace and Baylor were fucking and...

Bailey got pregnant, they could just very quickly get married. This wouldn't be like a random bastard out in the world. They could make this... They could keep this in-house. I agree to a certain extent, but the follow-up question is like, why aren't they getting married? So...

Okay, in the book, here's a quote we have. Munkin says the prince did not wish to wed until the war was over, whilst Mushroom claims Jassaris was already married to Sarah Snow, the mysterious pastor girl from Winterfell. As we talked about in the first episode, there were just these kind of like, of the many competing tales and conflicting unreliable narrators, a thread of Jace's trip north is that there was this...

a woman named Sarah Snow who he met and fell in love with. And there are accounts that dispute that, right? But they were like, we only have one time for, we only have time for one scene. So we're not doing Sarah Snow. You're going to get mere moments up north with our guy Craig at the wall. So I am inclined to agree with you and say that like if we were embroiled in war and conflict and everybody felt imperiled at every point, like,

let's get married and let's lock it up. And so to Liz's question, you know, I think that

If we think back to what Viserys said to Rhaenyra in season one, you must marry. Strengthen your own claim. Shore up your succession. Multiply. As to your match, make it yourself. Search them out. Find one that pleases you as I did. So the pleases you, but draw the part is already set. Should Rhaenyra be thinking about what Viserys was thinking about and making sure, because Rhaenyra has plenty of heirs, plenty of kids, but that the line, Jace is my heir. Who is Jace's heir? Let's get that in

motion so that we can show strength across generations? It's a reasonable, it's a really good question to ask. As we've talked about many times on the pod, I'm confounded by leaving Maelor out of the show for a few reasons, but this in particular. Like, Aegon has another son in the book and he just doesn't in the show. And so people, the combination of the absence of Maelor after Prince Jaehaerys was murdered

Ma, don't! People should be asking about this because now Aegon and this part would not have traveled more widely yet, but he's impotent. He cannot father another male heir. And Team Green is not going to prop up Jaehaera as Aegon's heir because as Lyra said, when Alicent was making her push to be regent in the fifth episode, like, what?

What would it say if in response to Renea's crowning, we raised up a woman of our own? Do you think if Otto were still there, he would be pressing Amon to get married and start popping out babies? This is the thing. Obviously, from Aegon's perspective, Amon thinking about this is a threat. Yeah. But Amon and Amon's advisor should be thinking about this. This is also yet another area in which

Darren not being in the story yet is also like weird because you just have like a larger sense of what all of the potential like lines of succession across both sides are. So they're just missing like characters. Obviously Darren has been acknowledged to me, Laura's just not in the show. So that's different. But in terms of Jason Bela, the only other thing I'll say is like, I don't think Bela would want to set up the war to be pregnant. Give up dragon riding right now to be pregnant. So I agree. Yeah.

But like if Raniere is like for the greater good of the line or whatever. Raniere was like, Raina, I need you to go babysit and then go to Pento's, the place where your mother died. Bye. Yeah. So why isn't Raniere making the ask is I think a completely reasonable question. Yeah, that was a good email. It was a good question. It's interesting. Aaliyah asks, for those of us not tuned in to the MLB, not the MLB, MLB.

Other than the fate of the beloved A's in our Coliseum, Aaliyah's from Oakland. Can you give us an update on how the O's are doing? Is it still their year, Mallory Rubin? Thanks for asking. Appreciate it.

You know, if we had done this pot a couple days ago, I would have said the Orioles, the Baltimore Orioles, your Baltimore Orioles were the first team in baseball to 70 wins. Best record in the sport. First place in the American League East. Lamentably, mere days later, I'm forced to tell you that they've fallen into second place behind the fucking Yankees. They are still first in the wild card. They're only a half game back at the moment of recording of the Yankees. You know, it's been an interesting stretch. They've been struggling a bit. The bullpen is in shambles.

Starting rotation injuries just simply will not cease. And, you know, I hope that they have a really strong September. I still believe in the team. I couldn't be more thrilled right now watching Tony Taters smash home runs. It's been amazing to see Jackson Holiday come back up and thrive this

Would it have been my preference this season for Kyle Braddish, John Means, Tyler Wells to all have elbow surgery and now for Grayson Rodriguez to also be on the I.L. and for Danny Colom to be on the I.L. and Felix Batista to miss the season? It would not be my preference for that many pitchers to have arm injuries. No, that's been hard. That's been hard. But could it be their year? Why the fuck not? Oriole magic. Feel the magic. Let's go.

You know who's having a worse year than the Orioles? And the Orioles are not having a terrible year. They're having a great year. We should say, Warner Brothers is having a really bad year. They just posted a $10 billion loss, by the way, since the finale, like the last three months. So I just want to say that's a factor, such a huge factor, in why we got an eight-episode season, which is not what the writers wanted.

Warner Brothers as a company has been struggling. There's like a fear that Zaslav is going to like sell it off for parts or like whatever. There's just like a lot of uncertainty happening at the parent company and

So when people direct their ire, which I really just go outside and stare at a cloud, I'd say instead of writing like shitty stuff on the internet. But if you want to address it towards someone, I wouldn't address it towards the writers on this show because it was not their hope and wish and prayer to have an eight episode season. So yeah, something to think about. Yeah.

Last but not least in this spoiler free mailbag, I just want to shout out our listener Jay sent us this truly extraordinary lizard email. Astonishing stuff from Jay. I forwarded it to Mallory. Mallory, anything you want to say about Jay's lizard email?

I want to compliment Jay's seamless incorporation of passages from the text. Yes. This was a master class. It was a great email. And Jay reminded me in the email, reminded us in the email that he wrote that like moth email when we were covering Ahsoka. And that was also an extraordinary email. So yeah, just like Jay. I don't know if Jay's auditioning to write for TheRinger.com or what a great website or whatever. But like, yeah, just the like,

use of quotes. I thought you were going to compliment the shoes, the Adidas slides that made it into the photos of the lizard. Anyway, great stuff from Jay about how lizards, dragons are lizards. They're not cats. They're not dogs. They're lizards. And that was, you know, and you're like obvious, but it was still like a really good email. So, you know. Well,

It wasn't creating them. This episode is brought to you by Peloton. You know, for me, fitness has always been about finding that groove, whether it's hitting the pavement outside, which I've been allowed of, or dialing up a sweat session indoors.

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Can't wait for this one. Alien Romulus, rated R, now playing only in theaters. Get your tickets now. Lizard is incredible on that. He's a great lizard, yeah. Okay, back to you, Mallory. Back to you. I love this. I love this new. I do it in trial by content all the time. I do it to like Neil and Dave all the time. All right, it is time at last for the previously mentioned book look ahead.

So if you don't want to hear us talk about things that are going to happen in the future on House of the Dragon because they happen in the future in Fire and Blood, this is where you leave us and this is where we leave you. And we look forward to seeing you, hopefully in mere days for the hype meter, hopefully for Rings of Power. Certainly we hope to see you back in two years for House of the Dragon season three.

And many times in between. Please. Okay. We've heard from a lot of people saying like, I'm going to miss you guys. I'm like, we're here. We're here every week, multiple times per week. Rings of Power is such a fun show that we have a really good time. Like,

I love it. Season one was eight episodes. I mean, they're long, but like it's completely achievable to catch up before season two. Actually, I'm not, this is going to sound like a lie. It's true. I actually have a little bit more fun covering rings of power with you than house, the dragon with you. Um, and that sounds like a lie. You're, you're on the record with your, you think it's a lie. I think some of our listeners might think it's a lie, but it's genuinely true. I really love covering that show with you. Um,

I love George R.R. Martin, but I am a Tolkien girly. Would you say that the professor is always welcome? He's always welcome. And so it's just such a fun, above and beyond the show itself, which has real high highs and then some bumpy rough spots that we're more than happy to talk about. Getting to marinate in the Tolkien concepts for weeks at a time is just right up our alley. So we'll see you in Middle-earth.

Wonderful. I can't wait. Can't believe it's only a couple of weeks from now. Season one was so fun. So fun to cover. All right. If you don't want to hear the book stuff, we love you. Goodbye. Everyone else. No time for amusements, Thailand. It's the book. Look ahead. I used to think I knew what it was to claim a dragon, but I understand now that what I thought I knew is ash in the wind.

Okay, Joanna, here's the question. Is what we thought we knew action in the wind? What a come up for Tylan, by the way, who started this season with the indignities of being like a hobby horse for a baby prince and got himself, I don't know, a pirate harem by the end of the season. Great job, Tylan. Just a whole scene where he mud wrestled. Book, look ahead. Okay.

Let's hit some of the things we were really looking forward to thinking about now that we've seen the full season and know how it ended and where we're leaving certain characters and how we're setting up things that are still to come. We have to start with your faves, Egan and Larris. I guess one of my first questions for you here is... Egan, Larry. Larry, I like. I don't know if I'm ready to call this Egan. Egg. I don't know. Egg two? Egg the Elder. Yeah.

Do you think... I mean, yes. Poached egg? Scrambled egg? Burnt eggs. Easy egg? Cajun salad. Jeez. Is Laris...

sending Aegon to Dragonstone in disguise as he does in Fire and Blood and then returning to, you know, staying and hiding in King's Landing? Or are they actually going to Essos for a bit? Like, I have two questions here. One, is there going to be a difference in where they both immediately go? And then relatedly, in what our level of awareness is and when? Because, like, these are reveals. When we learn...

That that Agon is like waiting on Dragonstone. Like, are we going to be with him every step of the way and have access to everything that happens? Or will we have that like, oh, holy shit.

he was hiding out there. So the book, we should say that Rhaenyra takes King's Landing and is situated in King's Landing. And then when she has to sort of like flee back to Dragonstone, oops, Aegon's there and shit goes bad for Rhaenyra because Aegon still burnt, but feeling much better is on Dragonstone. I feel like thus far, the show has been unable to,

to absent a character like Damon you know or Rhaenyra not that I want them to but like I think since Aegon is like I don't know their fourth most important character or whatever really weird when Otto just like very strange with Otto um you're right Otto's a good example um

I think what this all depends on, and we're going to get to this at the end of all of this, is sort of like when we think Rhaenyra coming back to Dragonstone and confronting Aegon is going to happen. I feel like that's going to be like three quarters of the way through season four. Yeah. Maybe later. Yeah. Yeah. So maybe they will just invent a whole adventure for Larys and Aegon in Essos.

With the goat fuckers? Does that sound fun? I don't know. They're our favorite duo, so, you know, I don't know. I don't know what they're going to do with them. I'm very curious. Is it connected to the Otto's in a cage plot? You know what I mean? And we don't know what's happening with Otto in the cage. No, we don't. Still no fucking clue what's going on with that. I'm torn on this because when you get to that moment in Fire and Blood...

I mean, again, for both of them, like, for the clubfoot had never left King's Landing as would soon be revealed. That's like just a really fun, exciting thing to read. But when you get to Dragonstone and you're with Rhaenyra and you're with Aegon III, the blood drained from the queen's cheeks when she beheld the bodies. But young Prince Aegon was the first to realize what they meant. Mother flea shouted, but too late. It's like, it's just incredible. I would be excited about something like that. Little blonde toddler to be like mother flea.

Hold on to that because we've got some other moments to talk about on that front. But I just don't, I don't want to leave. I don't think we can leave Egon for that long. No, so I think it's an inevitable, like... Yeah, like, structurally also the way that we then kind of, like, it's revealed to us, like,

what happened, you know, with like hiding out among the Fisher folk and then Sunfire and Agon making their way back to each other. We'll talk about Sunfire more in a minute. And then of course the Agon, Sunfire, Bela, Moondancer fight. All of that kind of like unfolds for us, but the show doesn't work in that way. Like especially where that's going to happen, presumably in the story, we wouldn't like take a long

20 minute pause to go watch what had happened. That just seems impossible. Previously, this is how Mo Dancer died. Like, no, I agree. I am really looking forward to watching Egon fuck up his jump and his legs just like shatter. I'm really looking forward to that. This poor fucker. Oh, man. Great stuff. Here's a question. Given how gripped we've been by this relationship, by this duo,

How you feeling? Give me a temp check on what we are eventually building toward, which is Laris's role in the poisoning of Aegon. It'll just depend on how they write it, honestly. I think there's a version of it that is, like, conflicted for Laris that is, like, either for the greater good of the realm or the greater good of Laris himself or...

A mercy kill of sorts or something like that. You know what I mean? I think there's a way in which to... I'm not trying to turn Laris into a good guy. He's not. I love that about him, that he's not a good guy. But I imagine it'll be just much more complicated in the show version. Yeah. I'm really excited. I'm excited because the way that...

I was going to say the enigma of Laris and then realize it's literally the passage. The enigma that is Laris strong, the clubfoot route has next students of history for generations. Like the more we can interrogate that complexity and get little glimpses, however small are still mysterious into what,

a given decision, the better. I just can't wait. And I like, too, because there is so much mystery around Aegon's death and the nature of the poisoning, but I always love that line in the book, like, yet whilst the hand that poisoned the Arbor Red will never be known, we can have no doubt that it was done at the behest of Larys Strong. Great stuff. Sunny? Should we talk about Sunfire? Okay, I'm just, like, perplexed by this. If you're listening to this and you haven't read the book, Sunfire's alive.

It has quite a role to play. And literally cannot be killed because Sunfire is how Rhaenyra dies. Like, and there's no way the history could have gotten that wrong. Like, that's too much of a... Well, the history is that there's no way the history got Sunfire roasting Rhaenyra alive, like, wrong. So, can I just say... In that particular, like...

you know, Aegon's dragon roasting and eating his sister. Like what that feels like it symbolically represents about this civil war, like a family tearing itself apart. It's just like, I don't know that you can sub that for something else. And also Sunfire has to kill Grey Ghost and Moondancer. Like Sunfire's got a lot of work to do. Well, that's if they even do Grey Ghost. I'm not confident they're even going to do Grey Ghost at all, but definitely Sunfire has to kill Moondancer. Um,

I think, I feel in my heart of hearts that there's a version of this season that ends with what Neil over on Trial by Content has been calling the beginning of the Sunfire Revenge Tour. Yes. Which is, like, because we hear that...

is going to Rook's rest. This is something that is like a line in the show. Yes. We're going to Rook's rest. Sunfire, long in the dying, is still alive. This is my favorite moment of Talk of Thrones without question was us after the finale talking about this in the dressing room and Chris Ryan almost did a spit take with a cupcake going like, wait, that dude's alive? About Sunfire. That dude's alive?

Yeah, Sunfire lives. Oh, man. And people are going to be really confused. And I have to believe that there was a version of this in the finale where we got the forces at Rook's Rest torched by Sunfire. And I have to wonder again if this is a budgetary, sadly a budgetary choice. Because when I was asking Dave about like what are the dragons left that they have to model. Yeah.

And he was like, it's a whole different model for a burnt Sunfire. That's a different model. You can't just slap some char on your existent Sunfire model. So in terms of dragon design, Tasarian...

is a model that needs to be, like, designed and rendered. And Burt Sunfire is a model that needs to be designed and rendered. So, like, I feel like they did not have the budget to do just, like, one more dragon. But they could have just, like, had these guys walking into the tree line and then, like, a burst of fire and screams or something like that. That also sounds kind of costly to do, but less costly than maybe designing a whole dragon. But give us, you gotta give us

Yeah. Something on Sunfire. Or like even just like have, this maybe wouldn't have felt satisfying, but it wouldn't have, certainly wouldn't have felt as confusing. Like have somebody say, Sunfire's wing is too badly damaged. Like he's too hurt to take flight. He's like healing. I mean, that wouldn't have been the most like scintillating TV, but it would. Or there have been weird, weird rumors of the bodies disappearing at restaurants or something. We came to bury the bodies and they're gone. Someone's hungry. Yeah.

I don't know, because I think the long and the dying Kristen language, like as we talked about when we were covering that episode, that actually does... That is actually akin to saying he was still alive when I left. Like, it was taking forever to die. And then there's that weird Rhaenyra line at the end. You're like, okay, well, maybe...

word just hasn't spread that Sunfire is actually alive. But then like multiple episodes later, having Aegon say, my dragon is dead and almost trying to like cement that impression with the viewership felt really weird to me because this is another time where the weight of

Like, dude, it's going to be so long before the next season. And then I would presume, unless we have a moment with Mutant at Rook's Dress early in the season and we learn Sunfire is live, which hopefully we will, it's going to be a minute before we get this confirmation. And I worry that at that point, people are going to be like, wait, what? And it's not going to feel satisfying. It's just going to be confusing. We were talking on Trial by Content about how that might be a sick cold open for season three of House of Dragons. But our listener Grover said,

Not a Tully as far as I know. Roni Mel says, that points out that long in the dying, Kristen's language is a sort of maybe lift from the book Game of Thrones, where Sandor Clegane talking about Bran says the boy is a long time dying. Of course, Bran lives, as does Sunny, the Sunfire. Sunny came home with a vengeance. Yeah.

yeah i i think it's when i asked condal about sunfire he his answer was i encourage everyone to go buy fire and blood and read the book so like they have a lot of people have been trying to solve like how do they do this without some fire they're not doing it without some they're definitely that would be impossible definitely bringing sunfire back it's just odd storytelling yeah to

to pretend that he's dead just for the sake of this, I guess, the surprise later when we find out he's not. I have to think it's budget, but, you know, I don't know for certain. I also feel like, on the one hand, what we got from Aegon, again, we talked about how that was a scene we absolutely loved, was quite impactful, like Aegon feeling like he has nothing left. Would Aegon have left with Larys if he had known that the fire was alive? Right. Like, Aegon...

to return to and be reunited with his dragon. I mean, obviously, like, them discovering each other and making their way back to each other and that question in the book of, like, did Sunfire sense Aegon's need? Like, I'm here for that reunion. That's great. You love a boy and his dragon. I do. I love a boy and his dragon and I really love the...

They found themselves face to face with quote, a dead man and a dying dragon line in the book. Just great, great stuff. George, speaking of deaths or budgetary cuts, gullet battle of the gullet. It feels like I actually think, I actually think they don't have to do the battle of the gullet in season, in episode one. If they don't want to, they could do it in episode two. Like there's time enough for like building intention. Yeah.

But actually, given the response of like, where's the action at the end of season two, it might behoove them actually to just like launch with a big battle and just be like, here we go. Here's that fighting you were asking about. We're going to talk about all the battles that they have left. And we were trying to do some of this math on trial by content as well. But it's just sort of like they almost have to have a battle like almost every single episode if they're going to do every single battle that's left. Not a lot of time for breaks. Because Condal...

that we should expect eight episode seasons for the final two seasons as well. So only 16 more episodes and a lot of battles to come. Yeah. But gullet. Yes. I can't fucking wait.

Our listener Jeff asks, and we both kind of obsessed with this. This is an incredible idea. What are your guys' thoughts on the possibility that Ulf might be responsible for Jace's demise at the Battle of the Gullet? After the way that Jace has been treating him lately, I wouldn't put it past Ulf to play a hand in Jace's death. Maybe Ulf has a chance to save him and passes it up. I'm sure it won't look deliberate since he's turning on Rhaenyra later. Okay, so like Battle of the Gullet, the two blonde toddlers who are on the ship with one teeny tiny...

hatchling still wet from the egg dragon. Yes. The gay abandon will sail right into the triarchy's teeth in episode one. Yeah. For sure. Besieged by pirates, et cetera. Jace, who has been itching to go into battle on Burmax, will fly to battle the dragon seeds. If we're following what happens in the book, the dragon seeds join him.

you know, Seasmoke is there, Silverwing is there, Verbathor is there. So like... And Sheepstealer and Nettles, so... And Sheepstealer, yeah. So Sheepstealer and Reyna. Spectacular debut. Will Reyna come through and actually save the children? Who's to say? Um...

And Jace dies. The first, first Vormax goes down and then Jace still alive gets hit by a crossbow. So like, will Vormax go down and Ulf could save Jace on like off a piece of driftwood or whatever. And then like doesn't or I don't know. I think, I think that's really fun in, in the vein of like Aemon and Aegon, like people like Jace. And then, and then Jace dies, not just from like rushing into battle, but,

when other people advise caution, but also as a result of like his fairly like classist shitty behavior over the last couple episodes, if this is like sort of what bites him in the end. I don't know. What do you think? I thought you were going to say the validity of his fear. Also true. I was right. Yeah.

At least I was right. Oh, man. I really like this theory. This feels totally inbounds. And one of the things from Fire and Blood that really makes you feel before first TumbleTen, before Olfen and Hugh turn cloak, one of the things that starts to give you that pit in your stomach is

after Gullet is the line like about Ulf and Hugh celebrating and drinking and like, you know, meanwhile, you've got Corlys like, if this is victory, like I don't want to win another. Everyone is just like in a state of absolute shock and despair. And then we've got, Mushroom tells us there were two men on Dragonstone that night who drank to the slaughter in a smoky tavern beneath the castle. The dragon riders, Hugh the Hammer and Ulf the White. So, and like, then you get that, you know,

Ulf laughing to Hugh saying we are knights now truly. High on that. We should be lords. So like that, that presentation just of like Ulf's

and ambition and lust, which of course was very central in the Dragon's Seed dinner. Yeah. Something like that after we watch him maybe like do something horrific. But then of course, also the other thing that's hard not to think about is that moment between Adam and Ulf at the dinner with like, we have time enough to, yeah, like see who is a coward. And so maybe it's like, yeah, if we see Ulf like spooked, because I,

It's always striking when you're reading Gullet, which is one of my favorite stretches in the books. Not a unique opinion. Many people feel this way. This is why they keep saying they've got to really crush this and nail this, right? Several differing tales were told afterward of how and why the dragon fell, meaning Vermax. So, like, there's a mystery already there of, like, how did this happen? What happened? And there's a lot there with Jace's character that's going to be, like, rich to mine. But Ulf, it's complete... There's completely...

There's enough room here to play with like Ulf having some role out of cowardice, out of foolhardy... Malice. Yeah, ambition, out of malice, anything. Like, I really like this idea from Jeff. I think this is going to happen. Now I can't get this out of my head. It feels like they...

We were talking about how they were just going so hard on this Ulf and Jace stuff in the last few episodes. And this did not occur to me as like when it could really occur in 10. And yeah, we were sort of confused because they don't have much to do. You know, Jace is going to die soon. And then what Ulf does later has nothing to do with Jace really. So like, why were they doing this? If it's a gullet setup, I think that's interesting. Yeah.

You want to talk about the tiny babies and tiny dragons for a second? Yeah, listen. So the way this works in the book, Aegon hops on Stormcloud when they get attacked and flies off for help. Yes. And then Stormcloud is like, that was too much for me. Yes. Done. It's very sad. And then Viserys...

like disguises himself and hides the eggs. And so like, it is a long time until he is discovered. Very long time. He's off to Essos to become, I don't know, a pirate babe. Who knows? These kids are too young. Yeah.

To do this. They literally can't do this now, which I just don't understand this. So, and there isn't a character with them on the Gaia Band. Like, we don't know any of those, like, eerie men that went with them or whatever. There isn't, like, a character who could, like, hide Viserys in a way, you know, unless we, like, meet them in episode one. So, I mean, it's not too hard of a fix, honestly.

For Jace to hear about what's happening out on the bay from, you know, someone sends a raven or something, you know, it doesn't have to be a blonde toddler on a teeny tiny bat-sized dragon. You know what I mean? Like, that doesn't have to happen necessarily. It seems like it won't.

But the Viserys part, the way that Viserys like hides. I'm the other way on it. I feel like Viserys can just like be taken captive. He can just be kidnapped. He can just be scooped up. Like, I guess then we have some complexities about like the, you know, his identity being

which, yeah, there's some stuff to figure out there. You're completely right. For me, though, like with Aegon, does he have to fly back on Stormcloud and does Stormcloud have to be riddled with arrows and die? I guess not. There's another way that they can... This will be traumatic for him no matter what. Also, our guy, Aegon the Younger, has a lot of trauma still to come. He's not going to be short on trauma at the end of this. But...

Only nine he had never flown before and he would never fly again for storm cloud had been terribly wounded as he fled the gay abandoned and also just like,

The regret that he carries, he would never forgive him. All the joy had gone out of the boy. He would never forgive himself for leaping onto Stormcourt and abandoning his little brother to the enemy. These are like crucial things that shape his character. And obviously the Dragonbane moniker and like that idea, it's other stuff is involved with that in terms of the dying of the dragons. Um,

It just depends. This feels like crucial, doesn't it? I actually disagree. Tell me why. Only because. Convince me this is going to be okay. Only because I don't think the show ever plans to bring these children out of toddlerhood. So I don't. I mean, we were going to get to this later, but is the show not going to end with egg on crowning? Here's my main conviction I have about the ending of the show. Yeah. And I could easily be wrong.

I think the show and the writers and everyone making the show is like Rhaenyra is our main character. And I think when Rhaenyra dies, I do not think there is much show after that. Right.

So like I, but like there could be like two episodes. I think we are only one episode after Rhaenyra dies. Yeah. I think that's it. And like, whether however much we like yada yada through or whether or not we leave it much earlier than people are, we're expecting. Cause they're like, what about the hour of the wolf? What about this? That and the other thing? Like, yeah. So like, I, I think we're going to end this, uh,

With the blonde baby still being babies. And so being back to their character doesn't really much matter, you know? Interesting. Yeah. Okay. Hmm. All right. I'll noodle on it. Because they said there's no more time jumps, right? And so like... But could they still expand the timeline slightly?

I mean, they're so fucking young, though. It's like, he's not going to be nine. No. This is like, we have a version of this with Joff. Oh, yeah. Joff is so young and so much younger than he's supposed to be. Are we going to watch that little toddler baby try to ride Cyrax? Try to ride Cyrax? But it happens. And die horribly?

Boy. I mean, it's painful enough when he's older. That description is so tough in the book. I know. I feel like that's an occasion where we could just be watching Rhaenyra as that happens. I don't know. Anyway. Interesting. Okay. Well, I will remain puzzled about why these children are so young. I mean, I hope that Stormcloud somehow makes it out alive, but I don't think that that can happen. So we'll find out. Definitely too small to fly. Yeah.

What if he's not? What if they're like, well, the thing about the baby being a baby is less weight for the baby dragon. What if he does it like Mary Poppins with her umbrella and just holds on to one dragon leg and is sort of lifted off that way? I mean, I'm here for it. I'm here for it. To the gullet on the morrow, but maybe let's stretch the morrow to like, I don't know. Seven years? How quickly can Stormcloud grow?

Oh, boy. Okay, speaking of the Triarchy, Jo, anything else on the Triarchy or Lohar or Stepstone's front? Are you, like, thinking ahead to the calamities that await and the eventual Daughter's War? Or are you like, there's literally a line in the book that says that is outside the scope of this tale. And so just once again, can't wait to not be thinking about the Triarchy again. I don't think, I mean, I think, hmm, Lohar has been, like,

a big hit as a character. Yeah. It has been my understanding. And so I think we're going to get like plenty of Lohar Thailand stuff, but I don't think we're making it to the Daughters War. No, certainly. I mean, certainly not. Do you think we're going to get Lohar's eventual murder? Probably. Sad. Sad. So many characters have to die.

People are just going to be dying all the time in seasons three and four, just constantly. Like multiple deaths per episode. Maybe multiple deaths per scene. A lot of people and a lot of dragons have to die. We'll get to it in just a second.

I want to talk about winter wolves and river people. I'm not saying river men because black alleys on my list. Yeah. So we talked about this a little bit, but like, what do we think of cutting? So we talked about this in the finale pod, the fact that there was footage of Craig Stark, uh,

marching in front of the Winter Wolves across the Bridge of the Twins. Yes. That they filmed it. There's behind-the-scenes footage of it. And they cut Craig out and just left it with the Winter Wolves. So in the book, Craig does not come down with the Winter Wolves. Roddy the Ruin, Roderick Dustin, is sort of the leader of the Winter Wolves. So like... And we're headed towards a fish feed situation.

And a Tomlinson and, you know, a butcher's ball and all this sort of stuff like that. So, like, do we think they're going to bring Craig down early, especially if we're not getting our The Wolf or something like that? And or are we getting Roddy the Ruin early?

Will we get Red Rob? Will we get Black Alley? Will we get Longleaf the Lion Slayer? Garibald Gray? We fucking better. All these River people that they had an opportunity to sort of introduce this season, but instead we've got Peter Piper's here, Oscar Tully's here, all this sort of stuff like that. I just want to shout out Garibald Gray for this line. When Kristen Cole...

is trying to bargain. Dormammu, I've come to bargain, right? And Kristen Cole's like, if I strike my banners, do you promise us our lives? And Garibald says, I made my promise to the dead. I told them I would build a sept for them out of traitor's bones. I don't have near enough bones yet. So, I mean, we have to have that in the show.

I mean, I feel similarly about Bait of Longleaf, about Longleaf the Lion Slayer. Like, obviously the earning of the moniker by slaying Lord Jason is part of it. But then, like, I mean, another character certainly could get the line. But, you know, we've talked about this previously in other book sections. Longleaf has one of the lines of the book. Like...

To Kristen, you want to say? Yeah, at the Butcher's Ball. I'll have no songs about how brave you died, Kingmaker, declared Longleaf. There's tens of thousands dead on your account. He was speaking to a corpse? We just have to get that moment. I...

I hope that there's room to like introduce enough of these characters. There are so many that I don't mind condensing some, but we've, we've got to get Roddy. We have to get black alley. We have to, I would love to get long leaf in there. I,

The Craig and timing is like, I don't know. I guess I don't. I would have liked to see Craig at the end of the season. I would have liked to know for sure that he was going to be like incorporated into the winter wolves storyline and just present more consistently earlier. I don't mind them.

not committing to that to give themselves the flexibility to make a different choice. I feel we, we agree. We just, we just both said this, like we're not going to get out of the wolf. There's just, there's no way the story moves into like actively into the Regency. But I think Craig coming in a little bit before egg on the younger's crowning and still being a part of this transitional phase and next step is achievable even absent the hour of the wolf. So yeah,

I hope we get Craig sooner, but I guess I'm prepared not to. I'm not quite as prepared to not get some of these other figures who are just so colorful in the book. Nathan, I was sort of Nathan-ish.

of all the characters we're expecting to meet in the next two seasons of House of the Dragon, Bloody Ben, Shepard, Unwanted Peak, possibly an older version of Egg 3, and of course, fucking Darren the Daring, who are you most looking forward to and who would you cast in those roles? Love the pod more and more every episode. Thanks, Nathan. Thanks, Nathan. How kind. The actual answer is Darren. How could it not be? But my pet answer is Bloody Ben, who I love. I legitimately can't wait for the lads. I just can't wait. Yeah.

Love a lad. I want to hit you with two casting ideas. I'm terrible at the casting ideas. I just can't. I just don't have the... I can't do it. Other than make Charles Melton Zayden. I've got nothing. I got kind of good at understanding the Nina Gold method, but Kate Rose James is the casting director on House of the Dragon, not Nina Gold. Okay.

And something that's consistent about Kate Rose James, who also did the casting for Raised by Wolves, is that she keeps using Raised by Wolves cast members from that show. I think there have been like three at this point. Lady Jane, right? Yeah, and Alan. And Gail Rankin was also in Raised by Wolves, stuff like that. So she's casting a lot out of this show that she previously cast. Interesting. So...

There's a kid that she's used twice in the past called Felix Jameson, who actually appeared in season eight of Game of Thrones. He played the little boy climbing up to see John and Dany's army arrive in Wintertown. But he's about the right age. And what's true so far, I guess other than TIE Tenet, which doesn't really count...

Is that she's casting like unknowns for these kids. Like we're not going to cast someone who we like no one recognizes any of these kids. So but we are happy to cast veteran actors in some of the adult roles. So the only other casting thing I want to mention is The Shepherd. Yeah. We're going to get to a shepherd theory later that I actually really quite like. Oh, interesting. Okay. Yeah.

Well, since I'm no longer rooting for Chris and Cole's death, I kind of like it. We'll get to that. It's a popular theory. I kind of like it. I'm excited to hear your take on it. But were it not him, were it not the Shepherds, Chris and Cole, actually, we'll talk about it. Yeah. Peter Capaldi? I have no notes. Zero. Zero notes. One other option. Yes. Christopher Eccleston. Also fantastic. Yeah. Those are both great. I think those are really good options. Chris, especially coming off of the Leftovers watches that I've been doing, this sort of like...

unhinged zealot of a leader yeah um chris eccleston is really good at that and then capaldi capaldi is capable of being so nasty if he wants to uh yet entertainingly nasty and very charismatic um and why not put another doctor yeah let's get every doctor in here eventually yeah yeah that's great what is jody gonna do let's find out um

Yeah, so those are my, like, casting thoughts. I love it. I love it. I love that you're like, where do these casting directors tend to pull from? This is great. Look at you, doing the work. Nina Gold would always pull from British theater, which I loved. And Kate Rose James does as well. But, like, the fact that she keeps, like, people have noticed that she is, like, pillaging from the Raised by Wolves cast. I have not seen that show, but Adam has watched it and he's mentioned it a few times. Yeah. Okay.

Great stuff. Bring on the Bloody Ben era. I can't wait for Black Alley. Black Alley. Come on. Yeah. I mean, you know, maybe they end up doing another spinoff and it's just, you know, Black Alley and Craig Stark. It's tough that like. It is tough that we spent so much time in the Riverlands. Again, it's like if you count up all the new characters that they introduced. Yeah.

Hugh, Simon Strong, Alan and Adam, uh, Alice Rivers, blah, blah, blah. Like Oscar Tully, like if they had, uh, introduced all those really fun Riverlanders, like that's just like so many new cast members to add, but, you know, bringing them in for season three, um,

you gotta have them because like with love and respect to like I don't know Lady Malice or whoever these other like river lords and ladies that we've met I need I need I need these other river people we're aligned yeah yeah

Okay, speaking of action in the Riverlands, let's talk a little bit more about Daemon's werewood vision. And also we'll hit on Helena's prophecy a little bit here. What do you want to say about the glimpse of the dead dragons that we got? Because obviously we felt like there was some stuff we could not say here outside of the book section about the possibilities. Do you think this is actually...

an event from canon, there are a few possibilities. Or do you, have you come down on the side of like, this is symbolic of like the death of the Targaryen dynasty and Targaryen strength? You shared concept art in our notes for the finale of like the initial idea was like basically like a sea of dead dragons. Yeah.

Because what we got was essentially like what looks like kind of two, maybe three, you know, like. There's a dragon in the foreground and you can definitely see some like tattered wings. But yeah, what else awaits in the background? Hard to say. So like if it's something, I would pick the dragon pit. But if it's more just sort of like the dying of the dragons, they're all going to die before this is done. That's sort of more where I'm at.

Yeah. I'm leading symbolic. Yeah. Yeah. It's so hard to see and like deliberately like the color palette, it makes it tougher to like, it could definitely be God's eye. And the thing that is closest to Damon's. You and I were trying to track how, how long the neck was. Like how long is the camera panning on the neck? Yeah. This could be second TumbleToon. It could be the storming of the pit. I also kind of like the idea of like the symbolic, um,

just shattering of Targaryen strength. But I guess also that can be true inside of this specifically being God's eye, for example. But yeah, it was so interesting to see that concept art. So interesting. Joanna, I'd like to take your temperature on the Daemon Lives theories. This is like a long time passion point among many readers. And certainly there's more fodder here, right? Coming out of the finale. Yeah.

So Daemon and Aemon fight over the God's Eye, Caraxes and Vhagar. Aemon's body is found with a sword through the other eye. Great stuff. The dragon's bodies are found. Yep. Right? Daemon's body is never found. Yep. Mysterious. Is he at the bottom of the God's Eye? Has he run off to be with Nettles somewhere? No.

Is he on the Isle of Faces forever and after Amen? Is he the new seer on the Isle of Faces or something like that? I don't know if they can resist a Damon Lives moment with Matt Smith in the mix. You know what I mean? Again, we're getting ahead of ourselves on the timing stuff, but I have been saying from the start that I think they're going to try to push the battle above the God's Eye as late as possible so they can keep Matt Smith alive.

on the press tour for season four. Yeah. So, but even if they push it as far back as season four, it has to be early season four. Early season four. Yeah. So Damon lives so that we get Matt Smith doing other stuff for the rest of the season feels, if I were a writer, feels very tempting to me, you know? They could even like not reveal that to us until like the very least. I mean, is Thrones going to do a stinger? Like what? You don't have final idea of like actually his secret life. And will he turn to the camera and wink? Yeah.

I love it. I also like to, again, not only have people speculated about this for a while, the fact that his body was not found is such rich fodder, but then you have something in the episode here. You have, like, until death or the end of our story. I love that. It felt such deliberate language choice to kind of fuel this speculation. And, you know, of course, had, like, Condal saying in the panel that you guys did, like,

I would just say that just because the thing is told to you doesn't mean it's going to happen exactly that way. And we've seen, obviously, in history and all that be misinterpreted before, both in the world of Fire and Blood and in the world of A Song of Ice and Fire. So that could apply to a lot of different aspects of the tale, including a lot of different aspects of

God's Eye of the Aemon showdown. But because this battle, a thing that is adored, a thing that has to be in top three and everybody's most anticipated. The way that Kondo was talking about it, he seems to think God's Eye is number one, Gullet number two. That's what he thinks. Yeah. I think that's certainly what remains. It feels right. Yeah.

So few were on hand to bear witness that it would be some time before word of Prince Damon's last battle became widely known. Like, not a lot of witnesses to what happens here. So again, plenty of room. Yeah. To show us something new. Yeah. This moving of Damon, this idea, this...

Import that Alice placing on Damon's like role and his like being a player on the board and stuff like that. Him going to the God's eye as like an act of like loyalty to Rhaenyra, but also does he have more to do in the story? This idea that Alice says you're going to die here. Like, is he physically going to die or does Damon Targaryen, the legend that is Damon Targaryen, die at the God's eye? And this person dies.

With a different name. Doing something else. Yeah. On the Isle of Faces, maybe. The Isle of Queen. You know? Yeah. I love it. Something else. I'm into it. I'm really into it. Thrones.

So, Daemon sees Rhaenyra sitting on the throne. We've got that Helena line to Aegon about Aegon will be king. He's yet to see victory. He sits on a wooden throne. So, this was just really fun. Like, not only just the adjacency of these glimpses and mentions in the show, but then, you know, again, when we talk about, like, prophecy and how much room there is for characters to misinterpret or misunderstand, like, yeah. Yeah.

Rhaenyra's going to sit the throne, but it's not going to go well. I mean, frankly, right from that first moment, the Iron Throne had spurned her and her days upon it would be few. And then Aegon, like... Can't walk up those steps to the Iron Throne. Can't walk up... What's the word? Withered? His withered legs? Like stick legs that had been shattered and like melted away? Yeah.

So I just love this as a way to play with the idea of like, yeah, telling us something or showing us something. But like, what does it really mean? While we're here, I'm going to read this email from Andrea. Okay. While we're in the realm of prophecy and theories. Andrea says, my question for you both is what is a favorite theory you have seen for the future of a character? Favorite being something you look forward to, possibly being true or just the most ridiculous? Yeah.

Again, we'll get to the Kristen Cole theory in a second. I can't wait to hear your takes on the Kristen theory. I don't know. I am enamored of this idea that's been floating around that the end of this show is Allison telling Egg on the Third, Baby Egg on the Third, the Song of Ice and Fire prophecy.

that that's where it all ends. And this is like, this is when Condal talks about adapting George, the reference that he goes to more, I think than even like Star Wars or anything like that is he talks about King Arthur and in the musical Camelot ends with King Arthur telling George,

you know, dying or about to go to battle and die. King Arthur telling a young boy about like what Camelot was. And like this idea that the young boy is potentially Sir Thomas Mallory or whatever, but like this idea of like, this is the story. This is the generation. I, and I, Alison as like the longtime friend of Rhaenyra, despite all these things that happened and,

I, the keeper of this prophecy now, pass it down to you. This is how it gets to you, egg three. I'm so enamored of that. Which is why I think we're ending it. It's going to end so quickly.

much earlier than people think. If we don't get, I'm so enamored now that I'm worried that if we don't get it, I will be disappointed. So that's sort of where I am with that. And then someone pops into the scene and they're like, pretty sure like when, you know, he became Rene Rosario, she mentioned this. And then someone else is like, but he was like four. So he doesn't remember. Toddler. I love that. That's really interesting. That's, I definitely think the show ends with, with Egon III. Yeah.

being crowned. And so like this being a part of it, like inheriting that legacy and Alison playing a key role in that embracing, accepting, passing along this thing that she,

because of what it represented about her, her misunderstanding or mishandling of duty. Fascinating. That would be great. In the Viserys role, like maybe even taking him down to like... That would be incredible. Be in front of the dragon skull. Yeah. And like has to hold him because he's a baby. Yeah. And so he can't walk. In my mind, she's like, she has him on her hip, essentially. Yeah.

Boy child, you bounced on your knee. Boy child's not nearly as fun as ghetto child. No, it's not. Really not. I really like that. And Allison, there is so much mystery for us as book readers of like what they are going to do with her.

her. I mean, I am now I'm jumping around a little bit because we're talking about her. I am quite concerned, of course, about what Rhaenyra's response is going to be to showing up and being like, you didn't keep your promise because you said I could kill your kid and Aegon's gone. Doesn't seem like that's going to go well, but there's just so much room for them to play with what Alicent is up to and how we get to spend our time with her given how backburnered she is after

Raniera takes over. So, you know, obviously we had been talking about that ever since Big Bathtub. Like, what are they going to do? And then this additional wrinkle then of the bigger bathtub of the meeting on Dragonstone. I'm intrigued by that. I'm intrigued by that. I wonder if Allison will come up in our next topic here, which is Aemond. Yeah. Because I would like to ask you, who do you want to see? Now that we know how our time at Harrenhal goes, who do you want to see Aemond,

have to face in Eamon's ghost therapy sessions at Harry Hall. I think this is, we've, I think we've gone back and forth on this a little bit. And I think, so to me, the most interesting prompt is like, if you can only pick one,

Right. Because there's I think there are a lot of good options here. Yeah. If I can only pick one, I pick Leo Ashton, who played young Eamon so well. And when we talked to you and Mitchell about his performance, he said he like took a lot from Leo's performance and stuff like that. So Eamon meeting the younger version of himself or or.

Or Ty Tenet, because we love Ty Tenet as younger Akon. Or an unscarred Tom. Okay, I'm losing control here. Everyone. This is how we ended up with 20 Damon dreams. And unscarred Tom, Tom and Carney. Or bring Patty back. I don't know. It's a lot. But Leo Ashton would be my number one. How about you? I like, I think I would probably rank...

Alicent first because just the mommy, the mommy stuff like I need it. And then Agon because like really confronting what he did to him. And then I would go Luke because of the guilt that he carries. But that's related to like young Eamon, which that kid is going to be.

four to five years older. Yeah. He's going to be so tall. Yeah. Leo Ashton could be older because like. Right. He could be like, I became. I became. Yes, but not Luke. He'd be like, you never made it. Frozen in amber. Okay. Our listener, Eli, asked for this in the book spoiler section. So Eli, I hope you made it this far, wants to know what happens to their favorite character, Simon Strong. And I got bad news for Eli. Okay.

This is from Fire and Blood. This is what happens when Aemond Targaryen arrives to Harrenhal. Daemon is gone. Aemond is pissed because he thought he was going to go fight Daemon and Caraxes, but Daemon has gone to King's Landing and they missed each other. And so Aemond arrives at Harrenhal and who does he find instead? Our guy, Simon Strong.

Fire and blood. First to suffer for it was Sir Simon Strong. Prince Aemon had no love for any of that ilk and the haste with which the Castellan had yielded Harrenhal to Daemon. Convinced him the old man was a traitor, Sir Simon protested his innocence, insisting that he was a true and loyal servant of the crown. Ellipses. Some stuff happens. Aemon commanded that Sir Simon be given a sword. Let the gods decide if you speak truly, he said. If you are innocent, the warrior will give you the strength to defeat me. The duel that followed...

I just need you all to pause right now and imagine poor Simon Russell Beale in his plum velvets with a sword. Oh, man. The duel that...

The duel that followed was utterly one-sided. All the accounts agree. The prince cut the old man to pieces, then fed his corpse to Vhagar. No. Nor did Sir Simon's grandsons long outlive him. One by one, every man and boy with strong blood in his veins was dragged forth and put to death until the heap made of their heads stood three foot tall. There aren't that many Strongs in the show. They didn't cast enough Strongs. It's gonna be...

one or two episodes for Sir Simon Russell Beale in season three, I fear. So, uh, sad if they, if they go by this, you know, if I were them, I would just say like, just kidding. Uh, he's safe because he's so entertaining, but I think he's going to show. They said all the accounts agree. A very rare thing to hear, but fuck it.

Let's keep Sir Simon in as long as we can. I'll miss him. It'll be really hard for Eamon to get any sympathy from the audience if he is cutting Sir Simon Strong, fan favorite Sir Simon Strong to pieces and feeding him to Vhagar.

Do you think there will be red currents at Harrenhal by then or no? I don't know. I don't know. And I can't believe that Alice Rivers would watch that and be like, yeah, that's my man. That's, that's surprising to me. I'm so curious to see what the Alice Amand dynamic ends up being, how it differs from the book. Yeah.

How it differs from the Alice-Damon dynamic. This is one of the things I'm most interested in seeing play out. There's nothing about current Amon that I would think would be alluring to Alice reverse. You know what I mean? It kind of gets back to a lot of the questions you were raising throughout the season of like, what is driving Alice? And then things Alice has said herself about the player piece. Yeah, there's got to be something else kind of at play there. Joe, speaking of...

Ament. The Targs. Yeah. Ament. Helena. I'm curious if anything that happened in the finale has had a bearing on what you think is going to happen to Helena, which is already a death kind of embroiled in mystery and differing accounts and theories and speculation. Do you have any new thoughts based on the finale and what we saw from Helena? I like the idea. I really, if she's got to go, falls or is pushed out of a window.

The Helena Targaryen story. We got a listener email about this on Trial by Content. The way it's written, it seems that Helena jumps the same moment that Aemon falls over the Battle of the God's Eye. It's hard to resist that visual of them falling at the same time, Helena and Aemon falling.

So, and if she's going to jump, I think I would prefer, I would think I would prefer her jump than her being pushed. Like, having actual, not ever pro-suicide, but having some control over her own destiny versus being, like, yet again another victim pushed around on the board, etc. Yeah. But there's all this, there's this whole, like, brothel plot line.

That I do not think. There is just no way. Absolutely not. They're doing the brothel plotline with Helena where Rhaenyra puts Helena, like, in a brothel. Like, that's not happening. So, like, yeah, I'm very curious. Yeah. I was wondering if, like, the Alicent and who will she be if her mind is broken question to Aemon to the finale was there to, like...

point toward some sort of, because we, this was what from the book we were kind of expecting post blood and cheese, right? But this is not what happened. And so then you're like, is it going to happen later and in a different way? Or is it just, is it not? And this is an example of the histories failing to properly capture what really transpired and the people who are sharing their account thinking, not understanding Helena's gift and mistaking it for madness. Just because she likes bugs. Just because she likes bugs.

Doesn't mean she's lost all of her faculties. I think it's kind of the opposite because Connell's implication in that panel was that Helena is getting more and more control of her powers in the dreamwalking and interpreting her visions with more accuracy. So I don't think we're going to see her do the Ophelia sort of broken thing.

I think we're going to see Helena's strength is strength is strength. Yes. But how that leads to her going out a window, I don't know. That's why I do fear that the murder outcome is more likely maybe it's somebody who fears her power or wants to silence her or something. But I think that idea of Helena saying to Allison, where would I go?

Because she knows from her future visions that she never leaves. Like, she doesn't go anywhere. She knows she's going to die. And then also, like, perhaps in her – we've gone back and forth on this line. Like, it doesn't matter. Like, if Ament is talking about her death, it doesn't matter. Maybe it's because, like, I've seen my death. It's soon. I've seen it. I'm going out the window pretty soon anyway. So it doesn't really matter. Kill me. I think you looked at your watch. TikTok. TikTok.

Let's talk about another sibling. Okay, what? Let's talk about another sibling. Darren. I chuckled. I got a kick out of Rhaenyra saying to Goros, the third brother is untested, has never left Oldtown, and his dragon is younger than Vermax. It made me think of the Twitter account Old Takes Exposed, who's always tweeting, this is a football take you got wrong on a ringer pod 14 years ago.

Does that happen to you? Do you get tweeted on that? It happens to everybody. I did have one. I did have one. Yeah, it was about Josh Allen. But a lot of people were wrong about that. Am I not to me? I'm not because I'm wrong. Just because like, I feel like you are tweeting about the NFL. You are a more notoriety in that space. Put your put your Brock party takes on Twitter. Okay.

on it and see what happens definitely um but yeah like this is just obviously not gonna prove to be true about darren and so i i enjoy that because i think like we talk a lot about characters underestimating raniera and so for raniera to make that same mistake is is dramatically compelling to me nettles yeah what do you want what do you want to say about this and where we are with this i just think it's could not be clear that they're gonna do the reina for nettles swap yep

I think the theory that we read a couple weeks ago that I got off of Reddit, that Reyna, that the reason that Rhaenyra winds up fixating on and resenting the Nettles character so much is if Reyna is in that role is because Reyna abandoned her post to

uh in charge of those two blonde toddlers and when everything goes down south uh at the gullet uh reina is gonna get the blame damon being protective of her uh not as like a side piece but as his daughter who is who he neglected who was a dragon rider now we got uh his the ghost of his dead wife saying what about our daughters he checked in on our kids

What do you think? I do like this theory that's going around. I think we got an email about it, but I've seen it elsewhere, this idea that, like, what if Daemon to protect Reyna or something like that, like, that Nettles is, like, a thing that they come up with to hide Reyna from Rhaenyra. I think that's a good theory, too. Yeah. So I was wondering, that was on my mind with...

I thought Condal's phrasing in his answer at the panel you guys did to this was like, felt so deliberate in a way that, I mean, obviously like he's being thoughtful about everything, but makes that possibility that you just floated really feel in play. Like...

We're providing the television version of one objective truth of this history, and anybody who reads the books is free to interpret it however they want. But there are a lot of paths to interpretation through this, and I think that the Reina story, as we're seeing it unfold, is potentially one of those interesting interpretations that we have to offer. And I would just say that we don't do any of this stuff lightly. So that's certainly about a number of aspects of this. But that last part, potentially one of those interesting interpretations, it did make me think like, oh, could this—yeah. Yeah.

a cover story and identity swap. Now, I think for the people who love nettles, this is like really going to be a complicated thing and not something that everybody's happy about. Shout out our guy, David Jacoby, who is like Roman Roy pre grieving. I'm very upset about this, even though it is not yet officially happened. And, you know,

I think that the daughter, the learning eventually that Damon and Nettles, if Nettles had been in the show, was actually still more of a father-daughter thing rather than like the romantic rumor mongering. Like, you know, the prince doted upon the brown girl as a man might dote upon his daughter. Like, I think that daughter possibility has always been there. And so making it his literal daughter, that feels inbounds. I think as we've talked about in recent weeks, like,

So losing that, and you don't have to be a Targaryen, though, as we talked about. Who knows? Nettles could have been a seed or had some blood of old Valyria that we just did not know about. But obviously, you just work your way up and build that trust with Sheepy. One.

hunk of mutton at a time and you don't necessarily and like what you know what that the fuel to the fire of like do you need to be a Targ really gonna miss really gonna miss all of that so yeah I'm so interested to see how this goes I guess if it happens RIP to Mourning Mourning will never hatch I love the design on Sheepy so much big Sheepy fan can't wait to spend more time with Sheepy though I'm haunted by your suggestion that we might just have like all of season 3 be them like

Getting to know each other before an actual pairing. I was holding this back because we were hoping sort of maybe to get a chat with our pal Paula Fairfield, which just doesn't think that it's happening at least anytime soon. So I thought that I would share this thing that I already shared with you, but...

She told me, she said, Ryan wanted a clear difference between the Rider and Dow Dragons, Frolicking Moondancer and Vermax in the next scene, and the Wilds. I made the decision that the Wilds have no song. Depending on what they've done with Reyna and Sheepstealer, maybe she'll get her song one day. So this idea that Sheepstealer has no song is just this sort of like...

scratchy voice like wild dragon that doesn't hoot the way that like the other dragons do but that maybe if reina claims sheepstealer which we just feel like it's definitely gonna happen but paula is not confirming one way or another then like baby sheepstealer will get a song absolutely deserves a song ah paula paula paula's a genius all right the betrayals the seeds yeah yeah

We talked about this with Ulf and Hugh already earlier. I guess we've kind of hit that part of it. The Adam stuff is devastating. Genuinely devastating to me. I care about him so much. I care about him so much. He's going to get lumped in with Hugh and Ulf, who will betray Rhaenyra. Though I have questions about Hugh, but let's save it for another season. So he's going to get lumped in with them.

And then he has to prove himself and improving himself by coming back and fighting the betrayers. He dies, and that's so sad. But before he dies, he is one of very few characters ever to go to the Isle of Faces. So my question to you is, are we actually going to get to see the Isle of Faces with Adam, our sweet, seedy, loyal boy? And my follow-up question is, if they're going to do that,

Why did they not have, I already said this, but like, why did they not have one shot of him at Harrenhal being like, what's all this then? You know what I mean? One little like, Adam's on the ground. Yeah.

man. Maybe later he'll be like, I was up there circling for a while and I have a follow-up question. What's all this then? Can I go to that island? I hope we get this. I mean, it would be, I think it, I'm looking forward to all of our time with Adam, but obviously it would be incredible to go to the Isle of Faces. The Isle of Faces? Oh my God. I do feel like we will go there one way or another because we'll go with Damon who's really alive. Right? Right. And becomes the, the, like, the three-eyed raven before Birdman.

Brendan gets there. Oh, man. Fun theory. Love it. Great stuff. Alfred Broome. What do you want to say about that piece of shit? I mean...

you know, again, this is where like they're not really, they're not really hiding the ball because like on the one hand, the where would whispering traitor to him? It could just be about the fact that he is there to kind of convince Damon to make a play at Raniera's expense. That's an act of treachery. But obviously the great treachery awaits. I just am like, they're really going out of their way to have him say many times over the course of this season, some version of what he says in the finale. I will never serve the usurpers or the whelps of Old Town. So while I don't,

particularly care for our time with Sir Alfred Broome or want more of it, especially if we only have 16 fucking episodes left. I'm interested to see, like, you know, we saw him obviously recede into the crowd as everybody bends the knee and chants for Rhaenyra. Yeah. But so, like, how is he going to reconcile his fear inside of Team Black with his seeming genuine aversion to Team Green? I'm kind of curious to see how that goes.

Alan. I guess we should have gone from Adam to Alan, but we were in the portrayals section. So, Alan. Adam. Alan. Alan firmly in the I don't want it model. But we know that eventually he takes over Lord of the Tides, that title from Corlys. Yes. How do we think that's going to happen? I'm kind of curious because...

For, like, the middle stretch of season two, we assumed that this would kind of happen, or at least we would make more progress toward this in season two, and obviously it didn't. So now I'm wondering if there's, like, a real timeline change coming, and that maybe... Like, I wonder if Alan's embrace of that... I mean, I think ultimately it's going to feel most satisfying if it's a thing he decides he wants, but basically, like, if he does it for Adam, not for Corlys...

And not even necessarily for himself. Like that's interesting to me because Adam has been the one who's like, bro, we've got to do this. Yeah. So curious to see how that goes and when that kind of change unfolds. You already mentioned this idea that Alison might be in a bit of trouble if Rhaenyra shows up to King's Landing and Aegon is, uh, Larys absconded with Aegon in a box. So like what, you know, what are you going to do about that? Uh,

I mean, they're going to be coexisting the same. We're just going to be thriving with Emma and Olivia scenes for a little while. And that's very exciting for all of us. We did this email from Sarah. I don't need to read the whole thing, but I did think it was interesting that Sarah pointed out that

We were missing the moment in Blood and Cheese in the adaptation that Helena, like, really chooses which of her kids dies. And we got a version of that with Alicent in the finale that Alicent basically chooses Helena over Aegon. Yeah. In a sort of, like, Blood and Cheese-esque moment. I think that was, like, a really smart observation. Yeah. Not that it tells us anything about what's going to happen to Alicent, but...

You know, that is a great observation, though. Yeah. Yeah. Do you have anything else to say about Otto Hightower? I think we've run out of ideas here. We'll see in two years. Here's the real question. How horny will season three be? We need more sex in the show. I don't mean to be so painfully predictable, but there's not enough sex in the show.

Zoe writes, in the books, when Damon and Rhaenyra get back together after the Harrenhal estrangement, it seems common public knowledge that Damon eventually hooks back up with Mysaria with Rhaenyra's blessing. Recall Rhaenyra apparently just eats tasty treats and gets, quote, thicker or something like that. Sounds fabulous. Honestly, get it how you live, girl. Anyway.

With the show's twist on Rhaenyra and Vissaria's relationship, are we about to get a Damon-Rhaenyra-Vissaria throuple? I just can't see why not. We've already said that Hot D needs more zesty scenes. Plus, HBO could show Netflix how to do a threesome scene properly because Colin Bridgerton sequences were not it. And I gotta agree. The Colin Bridgerton threesome stuff beginning of this season of Bridgerton were not it. I agree. So here's the question. Are we gonna get Damon-Rhaenyra and Vissaria throuple

Love to see it. Love to hear it. Love to know about it. Tyland and Lohar or Tyland and Lohar's many wives or all that sort of stuff. Is that happening? Yeah. Alice and Eamon. What's going to happen there? Bela and Alan. Too soon? Question mark. Who's to say? That feels later to me. Season four. Okay. What do you think? How zesty. I love Zoe's words. Zesty. How zesty and or horny is season three going to be?

It's a war. Yeah. I think. War can make people horny. Absolutely. Yeah. You want to feel alive before you die. And also like, you know, you made some great points heading into season two when we were talking about like the new cast members, Tom Bennett, Freddie Fox, et cetera, about how important it was to introduce some levity and like tonal variance into the season. And like, you know, when we talk about a vibrant, rich, varied tapestry, let's get, let's get this in as well. It can't only be.

Only be, and yes, when I like say, like it can't just be war. I mean, again, we've talked about it already. We're going to talk about it more in a minute. A lot of battles await. We're going to need some palate cleansers between all the fighting. We're going to need some fucking. I am, again, I have some questions about maybe how the Alice Amon stuff is actually going to go. Yeah. But I look forward to finding out. I would be, I would be happy for Jace if he experienced war.

the carnal arts before tragically perish. I think there are all sorts of opportunities. And the Damon, Rhaenyra, and Mysaria throuple thing is a great call. You know, like, the way that it's presented to us in the book a couple times is, like, with the queen's blessing. Yeah. And so maybe that's one of those examples of how, like, blessing not only because Rhaenyra had her own stuff going on, but because Rhaenyra was participating. It was perfect. Yeah. It's all happening around her. I like it. All right. All right.

Okay, so let's just do some quick timeline predictions here. We both put down our little lists and they're basically identical in terms of when we think things are going to happen. Fish feet. Whether they do Red Fork as a preamble into fish feet or just make it all one thing. Episode one? This actually feels like maybe the more likely opening act than Gullet because it just allows Jace to stay in the story one episode longer, right? And also because like,

the ships do have to kind of all sail toward each other. Whereas like, I know they said on the morrow, but like, I don't know. Like everyone's, I mean, I guess the winter wolves, it takes some time to get from the twins still, but like the Lannisters are fucking looking across the Trident at Harrenhal. Like that should happen soon. That really should happen soon. It should, but here's, I think we were trying to figure this out on Childlike Content. Yeah. The breakup I have between, so a bullet points, you have bullet points. Yes.

Almost, not all, but almost all my bullet points I feel like have to happen. Yeah. But I think they have to do some condensing or combining of sequences because for the season three bullet points I have, you and I both agree that we think season three is going to end with the first Tumbleton betrayal. Yes. That's where we think season three ends. Yes. Hugh and Ulf turn on Team Black. Yes. Devastation. Yes.

Huge blow. Yes. Huge blow for Team Black. Tough one. So given that, I have seven bullet points in season three for eight episodes. That's insane. So like for something like the fish feed Red Fork. Yeah. Where like Jason Lannister is going to die. Gwaine Hightower, perhaps. Perhaps.

Is this something where we can do all of those people dying at the Red Fork cut together with Damon and Rhaenyra take King's Landing and Aemon arrives at Harrow? Like, the fall of King's Landing and the fish feed happening at once. So we see Damon put all those people there and then fucked off and left them. And so the taking of King's Landing...

And the rather bloodless taking of King's Landing and the bloody no dragons involved battle happening in the Riverlands at the same time feels like it could be elided, you know? Yeah. I'm still curious to see if they end up like accelerating the Kristen Gawain path and incorporating them because we talked a lot during the season when we thought we were going to get Fish Feet in season two. Like we need more, we need characters we know to be participating in that because like Fish Feet is like sending ravens to Aemon like plundering

help us, but none of the Ravens ever make it to the even in Kristen. Yeah, and nobody we care about is there. So I think, like, for that reason, it seemed like either we had to get characters who we know and are more invested in to participate in that, or that could be a candidate for a battle because we don't know many of the main participants that happens offscreen. But I'm now less inclined to think it could happen offscreen because of the way season two ended and the uproar around it. Like, I think starting season one, I really, I mean, Gullet could definitely be episode one, but I think starting season three, episode one, with, like,

Fish feed? Fish feed happened off screen? I don't know how that's like... Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean, they can't... I don't think they can Bernie mill fish feed, but they don't have to show us like a ton of it. They do have to show a lion attacking Jason Lannister and then Longleaf killing maybe both the lion and Jason. Interesting, yeah. If Kristen... If they don't do Butcher's Ball and Kristen and Gawain both die...

at the fish feed. Like, that's a thing that could happen. I feel like they're going to keep Kristen around longer and we're going to have this, like, attrition and slow march toward just complete defeat. I'm tempted to agree. I just think that Butcher, of all the things that could be folded into something else, Butcher's ball is, like, the one thing. But then again, it's not as massive of a spectacle. Yeah.

That's the thing, yeah. I don't think that has to be, like, a huge set piece. I think it's just, like, you know, this march as you're losing men, like, this Amon-Kristen parting, which they've obviously already set up spectacularly. And then, like...

Okay, you've got these like, you know, little pantomimes in the end of your horrors and waiting for you in the woods and like burn passions. And every minute, just another thing, another horror befalls you and you're like, what is the point? What is the path forward? And then he just needs to run into like a group of people. He's just already so ready to die to like, I know, stringing along. Okay. So it's Gullit.

Gullet in the second episode. So you think Fish feed the first episode and Gullet in the second episode is what you think? I do like King's Landing happening in tandem with a battle, though. I like that idea. And I think...

You know, in the book, the sequencing, like, the kind of response that Rhaenyra has to Jace's death. Like, we're just in a totally different place with Rhaenyra as a character, right? So, King's Landing could happen before then. I don't know that King's Landing... I kind of am intrigued thematically, like, story-wise by the idea of King's Landing and Gullet happening in tandem. And Rhaenyra's like, I won. And then it's like, fuck, my heir was just killed. But the dragon...

all so many of the dragons being in a different place and being like this is the moment to go to king's landing that just would be odd so the sequencing would have to unfold in a way where like renera and damon felt confident enough that they didn't need everyone else to go with them and then they were all available when like or the baby flies well there's also moon dancer who's not a factor right in the book but like the seeds go with renera

Two kings landing. Yeah. And then come join the gullet. Yeah. But Jace is already there and like too late for Jace or... I could see that. Yeah. And I do think like...

just given the Allison, like come in three days timeline, like Kingsland, they just shouldn't take very long to happen for a number of different reasons. So that, that going with that happening in concert with fish feed is interesting to me. I like that as a, it feels like to me, there's like three really big things and it's like fish feed, gullet Kings landing. Yep. So the gullet, then fish feed Kings landing together, sort of like mid season, like in the Rook's rest spot. Um,

and then ending with the first battle of Tumulton. In there, you've got the potential of like, let's check in with what the Red Kraken is doing and stuff like that. But again, those are smaller potential set pieces. What do you think about Honeywine? Do you think that Honeywine will happen off screen and just be something we hear about? Or will that be our formal introduction to Ormond Hightower and to Darren and to Sarian? Obviously, we saw Sarian fly over those troops. It's almost too bad that we got a shot of him. I say that even as we were like, where's Darren? Where's Darren? Because like,

Darren on his dragon showing up is like the big deus ex machina of the Battle of Honeywine. Yeah. You know, is such a dramatic thing they could have done, you know? So I don't know. So many Darren mentions this season. Wild times. Season four. Yeah. Battle above the Gog and Zy. Yes. Beginning of the season.

I think Rhaenyra takes King's Landing in episode one of season three. That feels like the final shot of the premiere. But it's Gullet on the morrow, King's Landing in three days. But they don't mean they're going to reach the Gullet on the morrow. They mean they're setting out on the morrow to head toward the Gullet.

It takes a little time to sail there. I think we've been thinking they were going to flip-flop King's Landing and Gullet for a long time. But that had more to do, I think, with us trying to figure out budgetarily what they were going to do. Now that it's all in one season, I see no reason to flip-flop it. Yeah. No, I kind of agree. And then so if Rhaenyra takes the throne in the middle of season three,

Three and then Tumulton's the end. Episode three or four. And so you have like a real like low early in the season of losing Jace, the high of taking the throne and then the low of... Tumulton. Of Tumulton and the betrayals. And then we head into season four, God's Eye, first episode? Second episode? Second, to keep my spirit here as long as they can, right? Okay. So God's Eye, fall of Dragonstone. Yes. Yes.

Storming of the Pit. Storming of the Dragon Pit. Second Tumbleton. Bloodbath, yeah. Sunfire burns Rhaenyra. Yes, Rhaenyra's death. Aegon's death. And then whatever the final moment is. Alicent. If it were me. The third, maybe. That's a lot. I would burn Rhaenyra at the beginning of episode seven and actually kill Aegon before that episode is over. And then...

Yeah. The last one is the aftermath. They have a lot to do and not a lot of time. And like just the way the show has been paced to this point. I mean, this is insane. Everything we just mentioned is like insane. It's insane for them to try to do all of this. And again, like if we're talking about like budgetary concerns, like there's so many dragon battles. So like, yeah.

I don't. I mean, we didn't even mention something like the Kings Road battle at the end, which I guess they would just be like, eh. But I mean, there's a lot of stuff. And like, it's not can't only be battles like that's just that's not the balance of the show. Right. So I think like I think trying to keep if it's an eight episode season, I think trying to keep it to like three big things per season. They need 10 episodes per season.

Because season four, Battle of Gazai, Fall of Dragonstone, Storming the Dragon Pit, Second Templeton, Sunfire Burns are near. You can't skip any of those things. And none of those things should happen off screen. Like the Storming the Dragon Pit. Crucial deaths. So many people are going to die. So many people, so many dragons are going to die. I can't wait. It is going to be great. I didn't tease this person's whole thing, so I'll just say. Make the case.

Freddie did mention your favorite line about I'll have no songs about how brave you died. Our listener, Freddie did mention that. And this idea of like, this is such a different Kristen Cole than Kristen Cole in the book at this point. So it's like how he's going to interact with fish feed and a butcher's ball and all that sort of stuff is really interesting. Okay. But Derek writes on the popular Kristen Cole is the shepherd theory. I've seen this all over the place. Very interesting.

Derek writes,

This would be a fitting end to Kristen's longtime grudge against her and also would make his eventual condemnation by Aegon that much more personal. Also, for what it's worth, there's Dune spoilers. Dune spoilers. Children of Dune spoilers. Children of Dune spoilers. This is the Preacher arc in Children of Dune. It would work best if, like in Children of Dune, the other major characters don't know or even suspect that Kristen is the Shepard, except perhaps for Aegon II when he eventually executes him just before he is poisoned.

what if we fascinated I'm coming down on a no here what if we gave Fabian like Fabian like a huge ragged beard and like a great big bushy beard and like long hair that's great scraggle them up I don't see this just because I don't think that's

I've now become convinced that's not the arc that we're on with Kristen. But I do think this is a fascinating and fun thing. What do you think the arc... Well, I like this idea of conservation of characters. The Shepard is someone we've already met. That is compelling to me. Especially because the question of who he is and his identity is such a thing already. I don't know that I'm prepared to offer up another great candidate. I don't know. I guess like...

We talked around the finale of like, are we watching like a true quote unquote redemption arc for Kristen? And I don't know that we are. But I also don't know that we're watching a like, I need to hold on to my resentment and quest for vengeance at all costs arc. And like, I think that this is going to leave them in nihilism. Nook nihilism. Nook. The state of complete defeat. And like, what is my place in the world? Feels like the, the area we're going to play in.

at least for a little while. I kind of, again, like there's just so little time left now that I'm like, God, do we even have enough room to like get Kristen to go back to King's Landing, become the shepherd, lead the flock, spark the riot, spark the storming of the pit. Uh,

Find out then that the people are not actually just going to show up to align with you. Yeah. He also doesn't strike me as a thought leader, but yeah. Well, we did see that rousing speech to get everybody to charge into Dragon War. The one thing I do find compelling is like the way we've talked a lot about his like kind of cloak of righteousness and the use of this like religious justification for his acts. That's interesting to me.

but I just, I think I am like, everybody has their like, what, what do I really not want them to change thing? Like Riley wrote a thing on the site that was basically like, if Damon Targaryen does not jump off of Caraxes on to Vhagar and charge toward Eamon, Dark Sister in hand is Eamon is like fumbling with his saddle and can't get out in time. Like I will basically like swear off this franchise. I, I,

It's interesting though because I feel like the butcher's ball is quite like that but I just, Kristen's death, it feels perfect to me. It is interesting to me because Amon doesn't use seatbelts that we've seen so far. Rainey's does. Amon doesn't really strap himself in. Maybe his foot gets caught in the netting. There's all that like, all the ropes There is just quite a bit of like ropey lattice work there on the side. I agree with Riley on that. Okay. Do we do it? I think so. Anything else? Anything else that's

On your mind from season two, we're heading into season three. I mean, I can't wait to do this again with you in two years. See you again in two years, but also see you next year for Night of the Seven Kingdoms. I can't wait. I'm so excited for that. Can't wait to be with Duncan Egg. Those books are so good. If you, again, just going to advocate reading those novellas. They're quick. They're fun. Harry Lloyd does the audio book. Check it out. Wonderful. Can't wait to be with my guy, Baylor Breakspear. Love him. All right. We did it. What a treat. What a thrill. What a season.

Always love to cover Thrones with you. Delightful. All right. That's it. The pod makers, they're calling us. We did in fact make some pods, many of them, and they were quite long. So thank you for listening to them. That is a wrap on today's episode and on our season two hot D chats. Thank you to our dragon writers, Steve Allman and John Richter for producing these.

Just, you know, frankly, astonishingly long podcasts all season long. Thank you to Arjuna Ramgopal for his additional production work on this and every episode. And thank you to Jomi Adeneron for his work on the social for this and every episode. We will see you next week for the fall. And what does fall mean? You'll find out on that podcast when we decide what dates apply. Fall hype meter. Until then, remember, the pod is an enduring mystery, is it not?