'The Acolyte' Episode 3 Deep Dive
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Welcome to Yada Yada. This season on Yada Yada Island. When we were new, they spoiled me. They even gave me a phone. But then, it's like I didn't exist. Don't take Yada Yada from your wireless carrier. Now with Metro, get that new customer feeling again and again. Introducing Metro Flex. Free 5G phones when you join, same deals as new customers when you stay. Only at Metro by T-Mobile.

Just bring your number and ID and sign up for an eligible plan. After 12 months, trade in and get our best deals on select devices. This episode is brought to you by The Home Depot. It's that time of year, so spread more joy with The Home Depot's giant holiday decor. Go big this holiday season with larger-than-life decor that really hits home. Be like my wife. She'll just go to Home Depot to see what they got cooking. She's always ready to plan for the holidays. Maybe that's a tree.

You can put together in a few clicks like the Grand Duchess. That sounds great. Or a huge eight foot towering Santa with poseable arms that a flame effect lantern that might be in front of my house or an eight and a half foot towering reindeer with illuminated flashing bells. That's the holiday spirit at the Home Depot. Shop in store online now at homedepot.com. The Jedi are bad. The Jedi are good. This isn't about good or bad. This is about power and who is allowed to use it.

You're a very powerful girl. Right now you want to be a Jedi. But as you grow, what you want, it changes. It shifts. Like the seasons. What's up, bad babies? And welcome to House of R on video. If you hadn't already heard, we're now doing House of R, Midnight Boys, and Top of the Thrones on the Ringiverse YouTube channel, in addition to wherever you get your podcasts. That's right. So this is House of R.

I'm Joanna Robinson. Joining me today...

She's the red moon to my blue moon. It's Mallory Rubin. Joanna, what the thread has tied together, no one can separate. Oh my gosh. Beautiful. I'm thrilled to be here with you in person today, in a studio, with cameras. It's a whole new world for us. Yeah. We're going to be here all summer doing this in person. You're definitely not going to get sick of me. No. Impossible. Our bond is just going to grow closer and closer. Yes, that part's true. Yeah. Yes. Because, you know, the thread tied us together. Yeah.

Since before we ever podcast together. Okay, so listen. We're doing Talk the Thrones, and that is very important and exciting for us. We're going to be doing it on video. There's a whole set involved. It's going to be amazing. So Talk the Thrones after House of the Dragon on Sunday, and that's really exciting. Can't wait. But also, but wait, there's more. Talk the Thrones live. Oh, man. Tuesday, June 25th at the El Rey Theater. Thrilling. Tickets are still available. Get them now. Joanna Robinson, Mallory Rubin, Christopher...

Jay and some pals, some guests, some pals. Hang out with us on the podcast or video platform of your choosing on Sunday nights right after the episodes and then come hang out with us in person. In person, the LRA. On Tuesday, June 25th. Thrilling. Who could ask for anything more? So that's it. Yeah. House of the Dragon, Acolyte. That's what we're covering for the next couple of weeks. Over in the Midnight Boys. Pew, pew!

They're being a little bit of overachievers because they're doing House of the Dragon, Acolyte, and The Boys. Yeah. So you're going to hear from them twice a week. You're going to hear from us three times a week. I guess we're all overachievers here at The Ringiverse. Also overachieving, Mint Edition is going to be doing Inside Out 2. So if you want to get your Pixar takes in or out. Always. That is where you're going to find them over on Mint Edition. That's the program reminders. Yeah.

Find us again on YouTube, The Rigorverse Channel. Subscribe. Subscribe. What? Smash that bell or something like that? I don't know. I'm new to YouTube. That's exactly what everyone says and how they say it. Smash that bell. Okay, great. So do that. Molly Rubin. Joanna Robinson.

How else can people find us? Oh, thanks for asking. Yeah, you're welcome. After you smash that bell. Yeah. I believe I got that right. Yeah. You know, follow the pod on Spotify or wherever you get your podcasts. Subscribe to the YouTube channel. Do all that stuff. And then find the Ringerverse.

on the social media platform of your choosing. We're everywhere, Jo. Wow. You looked right down the camera just for Jomie for that moment. I love that for you. We're everywhere. The Ringerverse is on Twitter. The Ringerverse is on Instagram. The Ringerverse is on TikTok. You can find video clips from these video podcasts that we're doing. It's true. You can find all sorts of updates, programming reminders, little glimpses of our wonderful in-person time together. Why would you not be following the Ringerverse on the social media platform of your choosing? And then, of course...

You have a thought that's maybe longer than a tweet. Oh, yeah. Send an email. Because the inbox is open. The inbox is active. Yes. Hobbitsanddragons at gmail.com. We're at the point in what the Men Eye Boys are calling the content cornucopia. I like content cornucopia. I like it. I like content gauntlet. Yeah. Because it kind of rhymes and it describes what we're going to be writing this summer. Right.

So in the midst of the content gauntlet, we had a ton of acolyte emails. As soon as the episode was over, people were firing off their hot takes. So, you know, we're back in session. HobbitsandDragons.gmail.com. Very exciting. Spoiler warning today. Yes. All of Star Wars?

All of Star Wars. Movies, comic books. Everything. Animated shows. Certainly episode three of The Acolyte. Certainly everything that's happened in The Acolyte to date. But yeah, if it's ever happened in Star Wars, it's something that we might talk about today. We might. You know, if it's a witchy thing, it's possible it could come up today. Okay. You love a witch? I do. Spice creams? Spice creams. You might be talking about some vaginally inclined art. Great. Love that you went there first. So that's an exciting thing to get into the intro. Also, speaking of, I don't know about speaking of, but that's a transition I choose to use here.

Arjuna Lindbergh is going to be on the podcast today to do a lore corner with us. It was an immaculate transition. I don't know what you're talking about. Ben's going to be here to talk to us about... We're piping him in. Yeah. On the monitor. He's not going to be running in that door. He's going to be on the screen. Yeah, he's on the monitor exactly where we all left him in the Ringiverse YouTube trailer. Right. Great stuff. Great bit from Ben and Arjuna in that one. Wonderful. Very good. Um...

Let's get into it, shall we? I mean, I suppose we might as well. Quick facts. We're here to talk about Acolyte, episode three, Destiny. I damaged Mallory's brain by mentioning a couple weeks ago that every time I hear the word Acolyte, I think of the Dave Matthews band song, Satellite. I can't stop. And have been singing Acolyte to the same tune. And now Mallory just responds to everything. Yeah.

With that little tune in her mind. Okay, so we're here to talk about episode three, Destiny. Yep. No duality in this episode title. Yeah, I miss it. Do you think that's because the twins are together in this episode? Or do you think it's because we're only seeing this episode from one point of view? Would you say a certain point of view? I would say a certain point of view. This is a podcast about Star Wars. Oh. Yeah. Is that a line from Star Wars? Yeah.

I didn't know. That's a good question. I guess we'll probably find out for sure come episode four, right? Whatever the titling is there. Maybe we'll give us the clarity of what sort of titling parameter we're following. I have some questions about whether we are only definitively in one point of view. We are definitely not only definitively in one point of view. But maybe it's because they're together rather than... I think it's definitely...

like a skewed point of view. For sure. But it is not a strict, clean, this character's point of view. I got very particular about that when I was going back through the episode. Okay. This episode was written by Jasmine Flournoy and Eileen Shim. Eileen Shim wrote episode eight of season one of House of the Dragon, an episode that we love. I'll be out of it lots. And she will be on the upcoming Vision Quest show. So that's exciting. And this was directed by the great Coconata, uh,

who directed the films Columbus and After Yang. After Yang stars Jodi Turner-Smith as a concerned mother of a special child. Sound familiar? Sure does. Yeah, Coconata doing this. We were really excited preseason to hear that this director was going to be working on this season of television. 44 minutes. A longish one compared to episode two.

Let's do, let's just do the opening snapshot. Let's do it. Let's do it. All right, Mallory.

overall thoughts about the episode, thoughts about getting the flashback episode so soon. You were asking about this when we talked last week. Did this satisfy you? Was it additive to what we already knew about May and Osha's backstory? I also asked last week if we might see a Jedi just steal a child's blood without asking at some point. You sure did. Sure enough, we were rewarded. Yes. That was a thrill for me. I'm

Pretty mixed on this episode. And it's the kind of episode where in real time I can feel that I am unable to properly assess whether it totally worked for me until I see the entire season. Yeah. I could see going back to this episode after we complete the eight episode first season and thinking that this was a brilliant way to expand...

not only the timeline, but the nature of the mystery and how we're navigating parsing the mystery. In real time, I found it to be emotionally compelling, thematically intriguing, and

In other ways, like a little bit odd. I'm still having some of the I'm liking the show overall. Yeah, I'm like incredibly excited to keep watching it overall. I'm enjoying the show. I love the chosen focus, the examination of the Jedi, right? The Jedi is gatekeeper, etc.,

I'm genuinely really into that. Child stealers. Intergalactic cops. Yeah. The Jedi, like, do not come off well in this episode, and I think that's fascinating. This is what we were sort of talking about when we covered the first two episodes. The proposition of the show was from a Sith point of view.

Yes. And so whether or not you would consider this strictly a Sith point of view, we don't know where these witches align necessarily. Right. But it's certainly not a pro-Jedi point of view. No, absolutely not. And so I like that and I like the show's ambition in that respect. And I'm really excited to keep watching what the assessment of the Jedi pursuits are and where the show comes down and where the characters who are either outside of that or a part of it end up coming down and what they might be complicit in. I think that's fascinating. Yeah.

In terms of your question about, like, was this the right time for a flashback episode? That actually didn't really bother me. Yeah. I kind of, again, like, we'll see because part of what I leave this episode thinking is that maybe we get another flashback episode and that maybe it is. Oh, definitely. Maybe it is not only another

a flashback episode, but maybe it is set in this exact same stretch of time. Perhaps we extend a little bit in either direction because I think we still need to understand what brought the Jedi to Brendok and then that particular, like, permutation of being there. And then certainly what happened during the fire, which was a...

To the witches. Quite odd. When they all sort of cry out and we very specifically don't see what happened. Yes. And they do not look burnt at all. Yeah. So you're saying there's going to be more that we see there? A lot of like scrunched up face response to that as you're watching in real time trying to figure out what's happening, which is of course by design, right? We're not supposed to leave this episode with a totally clear picture either because of, to your point, like,

whose perspective are we seeing this from? Or because we just haven't actually seen what all of the characters are up to and those things are entwined. So if we get another flashback and it feels like, okay, every couple episodes were in the present day and then we move back and we have an increasingly full picture of what unfolded and we're gaining that clarity and lockstep with the characters, I think that could actually be cool. It didn't feel too soon to me to do a flashback. I just beat to beat, scene to scene, minute to minute. It just wasn't the strongest thing.

And there's something about the pace and the cadence and the way the characters are speaking that I'm still just acclimating to. I did think that Jodi's performance was exceptional. Absolutely. Absolutely exquisite. And I know you love a witch. So that was exciting. What did you think of the episode? And there were so many witches. There were! And they were... They're cloaked. They're singing. You got an impromptu musical number.

there were lesbian witches I who could ask for any more a beautiful forest a poison tree the poison punta tree was absolutely gorgeous yeah um

I think this was a, I think this was like a half of a great episode. I think all the Jodi stuff works. I think every time she's talking, I'm mesmerized. I think the fact that there are a ton of witches here is really exciting for me. You love a witch. You love an ocean vista, you love a witch. I love a flashback wig and flashback bangs. And we got so many of those. Everyone had bangs in the past. And that is great news for all of us.

So all of that worked for me. I think the kids were a little tough for me. And Star Wars, of course, has a grand tradition of... I don't love critiquing children and their performances. They're doing their best. But I feel like...

And I think maybe one was like a little bit more dialed in than the other, but I just think overall these two kids and the fact that we watched them have a very similar conversation over and over and over again, like I really felt like I got that dynamic from the first conversation. And then we had like six other versions of it in the episode that that dragged for me. But I think you're

You're right. Like, perhaps if this were just episode three, you know, I'm always pro week to week. But if this were in a binge, probably it would not stick out as much to me. But as it is, yeah, this is like a mixed bag for me. But there's a lot there's a lot of.

There's a lot to be had in terms of theorizing that is really exciting. A lot of like possibility here. And I definitely agree. We're going to get more flashback. We're going to fill in the gaps of what we didn't see in this episode. But as you alluded to, we are in, we're not strictly in OSHA's

because we get scenes without her in it. So how could she know what happened when she wasn't there, right? So we're not 100% in Osha's, but we are mostly in Osha's point of view. So are we going to get what Mae saw? Or are we going to get what the Jedi saw? That's the one that I feel is more essential. Oh, yes. And...

I'm excited when we get to the fire because the fire sequence is emblematic of the entire episode to me. Where I was simultaneously like, this is...

I'm thinking about questions. I'm looking at Torben's face in the background, right? The wound is there. When Sol is tending to Osha after she wakes, and he's scarred. He's freely bleeding. Something horrible has happened. You already mentioned, like, wait, so there's a rumbling and a shaking, and then all the witches are dead. How did the fire spread? We'll talk about all that more when we get there, but...

It's prompting the fun theorizing of like, and why was Sol there so quickly in the first place? Like, shouldn't they be off over on their ship? What are they doing there? Is there some other guiding hand at play? All of that's interesting to me, but I don't think that changes the fact that in real time, it just feels a little inelegant. I agree. Except for literally everything Jodie Turner-Smith does. Wonderful. Yeah.

Would you let Mother Anissa give you a forehead tattoo? 100%. Great. I think it's beautiful. The white swirl. Yeah, wonderful. Mostly hidden by my bangs, but when I need to like sort of let people know. So Anissa, tell which twin you are. Are you Mallory or are you Joanna? I'll be like, I've got the forehead tattoo. Otherwise, we're identical. So last but not least, before we get to sort of the deep dive, we got a lot of emails from people asking about

We can hear the call in our ears. So that's a delight. Thank you, Steve. Where's Yoda? Many emailers asked, where's Yoda? Shouldn't Yoda be here? I'm not, you know, just because someone's alive in an era doesn't mean they need to be like in the show. But do you even want Yoda in this show? How do you feel about it?

Absolutely not. And this is actually pretty uncomplicated for me. You know, I love to say I'm at war with myself or I'm of two minds. Or like I'm a glutton for like, give me all the content, give me the nostalgia, give me everything. This is pretty easy for me. The fact that Yoda's alive is not actually relevant. I think part of what we need to understand about this era is the scope of the order, right? So we are focusing our attention on

a padawan and then her uh actually not dead twin still a fun episode one twist that was great and this quartet of jedi who made their way for mysterious reasons i mean the mysterious it's not mysterious that they're stealing people's children that part's clear we'll talk about that just all just like snooping and sneaking behind trees tough one there guy that one hurt but

we're focusing in on a group of people and the order is vast and everybody's going about their business in the galaxy. And so... Yoda's posted up at a noodle bar elsewhere in the galaxy. Yoda's got things going on. Like, there's that. It's just, I don't know that we need to imply that everybody is, like, in touch and in each other's lives all the time. Because there's so many Jedi, active Jedi out there. I think, like, if you were, like, referenced or something, that would be fine to me. But to me, it's actually more about what we talked about last week, which is how different

and standalone is this show really? And I remain a little... I'm still kind of finding my bearings with that. And again, I'll reserve judgment until the end of the show because there are some parts of the connection to...

Just how we think about what a Star Wars story is. Yeah. Putting aside the Skywalker saga piece of it for a minute, this idea of how the Jedi think about attachment, et cetera, et cetera, all the stuff we talked about last week. It makes sense to me that that's a part of this. The idea of taking a theme that we're accustomed to examining and perhaps inverting or in some way recalibrating what the story does with that. Yeah. I think is great.

The more we're going to, we will be saying things like Palpatine and Anakin and forced dyad and immaculate conception a lot today. Qui-Gon. Qui-Gon. Midichlorian Jesus. That midi count. That midi count. Stolen blood, blah, blah, blah.

Parallels, cycles, ripples across time into it. Too many direct tethers to the story that this show was sort of positioned as not being a part of. And again, like how you walked out line to intentionally and deliberately like paving the way to something so that we better understand how those characters wound up in that circumstance. Okay. But then if it's like just Yoda sitting here, it actually, at some point it becomes impossible to accept that he allowed Palpatine to rise.

I just think he kind of can't be a part of this. And, I mean, this is welcome to the dark side because this is where I was with, like, I don't want Leia in the Obi-Wan show, like, because that is hard to make sense of. Or I actually don't want that much Luke Skywalker in Mando. Like, I really liked that Mando was his own thing. So, like, I agree with you wholeheartedly. I also don't want a Darth...

Last name that we already know to be a part of this, you know? That's how it works in the Sith, right? That's your last name? You're like Mr. Plagueis? Okay. Just making sure. That's where you get your mail addresses? Like Mr. and Mrs. Plagueis? Just making sure. Okay. Let's go now.

To the deep dive. Do you think Darth Plagueis was a big handwritten scroll? Oh, yeah. Yeah. I have the anti-correspondence. He's also, he's pretty susceptible to chain letters. I mean, have you heard? Deep dive. Let's do it. I always forget that that's there. Yeah, me too. Every time. Dateline. Friend doc. I love that you're sticking with this. 16 years ago. Yeah. Yeah.

The first thing we see as we sort of, again, in one of the many incredible establishing shots of like beautiful, we are definitely in real nature. We are not in the volume shots. Yes.

We get this like beautiful, craggy cliffside. Then we get this stonin' Stonehenge-esque shape that can invoke either a typhoon from Mandalorian Season 2 or Cetos from Ahsoka. We've seen these sort of stones before and they're either, you know, for the Jedi or, you know, it's witch stuff. And in this case, we're pretty sure it's witch stuff. But, you know, who's to say? But did you have any, did this spark anything for you?

Are you a big Henge person in general? Love. Yeah, you're pro-Henge. Oh, yes. Yes, yes, yes. It makes me actually think of your prestige TV potting on Shogun and discussing what a rock can represent. I love Henge. I thought this introductory stretch of the episode visually was stunning. Yeah, the Bundachuri. Limburg wrote about this in his recap, and I thought this was an astute observation. The

between the exterior shots and the interior shots in this episode was... It was sort of impossible to not think about as you were watching it. When we were just sweeping in, you have a sense of place...

One of the things that we love about the sense of place is not only what it tells us about a community, but about the galaxy. Like, we always talk about the star. In Star Wars, the galaxy is so big. And so places should feel different. They should feel special. Yeah, I mean, there's one weather system per planet, but they should be different from each other. This is one of my favorite obsessions of yours. I mean this sincerely. Like, the why does every planet seem like it's just one planet?

square block of one town it's a fair point it's a fair point and then we go to the but we go to the the bunta tree this was like gorgeous and then blue mushrooms yeah this little fluttering creature comes in it's like a hummingbird morphed with a fish morphed with a gummy bear i thought it was beautiful but also a

Like, most obviously a galactic butterfly, for sure. That's fourth on my list below hummingbird, fish, and gummy bear. So we get this. So Osha's sitting there. Mm-hmm.

She's messing around with the force. And by the force, I, of course, mean the thread. And she's freezing the creature. I've seen a lot of interpretations of this of like what Osha's doing is like just curiosity and what May is doing is kind of cruel. The difference between the way that they're freezing these creatures is...

I actually kind of disagree. I feel like what we see in Osha there is, like, she's also capable of this. She just sort of tamps it down a bit faster than May does. But, like, that idea of, like, pulling wings off the butterfly, which is sort of what they're invoking here. Or the gummy bear. You know how you pull wings off a gummy bear. I think people do and say. They, like, Osha has a bit of that in her. Yeah, there's this question of, like, how...

much is osha tamping down the darkness that is also present in her i think anytime whatever the exact maybe intention or conscious aspect of what she's doing is there like it's hard not to think anytime you're seeing a character hold another living being in a position of stasis like that and controlling another life form that there's something sinister about it and i i

I think actually that question of, well, is it curiosity versus control? That's what was cool about it to me because I think we can simultaneously say what we're both saying, which is like there's something there that pings as alarming, which is also how I felt about it. But that idea of reinforcing to us that

Maybe it is only a matter of degree. Exactly. And that a tiny thing in your life, a choice somebody else makes, a choice you make, weather, the light fixtures on everybody's...

have like uncontrollable voluminous flames coming out of them can tip you over the edge. And I think also there's a really interesting... What I love more than almost anything else about this episode is the needle that they thread, no pun intended, with the witches in terms of like... Yes. Are they good or are they bad? And I think...

what the show is really asking you to consider is it depends on your point of view. Right. Entirely. Right. From that certain point of view. But they're not, it's, the show, I think, and I hope continues to, refuses to take a stand on whether or not, I don't think there's going to be some big reveal later on that this is actually like a Sith cult or anything like that. There are some like, you know, I think, obviously there are some connections that we can draw. We can talk about those things. There's definitely like,

Mother Coral's certainly, like, quicker on the trigger of, like, who's going to miss these four Jedi, you know, that sort of stuff. But it's complicated. It made me laugh so much. I'm like, if only Coral had been around to enjoy Order 66. Coral would have fucking loved Order 66. She's like, no one's going to miss these four. Get rid of these guys. But, like, let's get rid of them all. But, um. Oh.

But that I hope that it's not going to be a reveal later on. Like, actually, when we see the Jedi point of view, the witches are just evil. The witches are trying to protect something, right?

that belongs to them and what would you do if someone showed up knocking on the door and said hey we want to take your children you know your children that you created in unnatural ways then maybe we should be a little scared but it's like it's tipping really back and forth constantly with these witches and I just like never I never want the show I want it

it to be up to us to decide whether or not these women deserved to just be left alone. Because coming out of this episode, I'm like, just leave these women alone. None of this would have happened if the Jedi had just minded their own business, right? But the Jedi are going to feel like, you know, as Torben said, in a tremendous wig before he took some Buddha poison, like, you know, we thought what we were doing is right. Right. So, you know. There was a little bit of a rings of power touch the darkness thing.

element to this, right? Especially for the kids. And I think that question of, is it dark side? Is it light side? In a Star Wars story, we're always thinking about balance. Well, what is in between? I agree, like very, very present here. And I like what you're sketching out about like leaving it up to

This is a way that the journey for the viewer and the characters can really be joined. Yeah. Like, leaving it up to us to make a decision, whether it's a logical one or a moral one or a philosophical one, about, like, what it means to align yourself with another person, to live your life a certain way. And that, like, the Buntutri is so beautiful, but Osha, it's dangerous only if we eat it line. Yeah.

I felt very entwined with that idea. This thing, you are literally sitting under this thing. Poison tree? You don't do that?

personally to be in my home. That's true. In pajamas under the comfort of a fleece blanket with my cat on my lap as safe as I can possibly be. I do not think I would choose to spend my leisure time under a poison tree, but I do like this idea that this like stunning canopy that seems so welcoming and inviting and peaceful could kill you. And we actually have seen that happen in the prior episode, right? The bunta petal put into the poison that Torben drank. Mm-hmm.

And that only if we eat it line, I thought more than some other parts of the episode, like, deftly summed up that idea of, like, well, you can decide how you engage with that. You can decide whether you activate that possibility. I also really like that sort of, like, Garden of Eden-identic imagery of, like,

The tree that is beautiful but dangerous to you if you eat it. And here we meet the twins in a place of innocence. Yes. And everything that happens after is an intrusion on this paradise. Yeah, and there was like a highly religious quality to the entire episode. Yeah, for sure. Whether it's the kind of like sermon-like nature of some of the speeches or the...

and worship at play and some of the rituals. That was, that felt, yeah, very, very present throughout. May is, like, accusing Osha. She's like, why do you always run off alone? Why are you always doing this? And I just want to, we don't need to dwell on this because they kind of go back to this well a couple times in this episode, but I do want to just underline something that Leslie said in the conversation that we had with her last week is this idea of thinking about May and Osha, and again, this episode really underlines this, as, like,

diametrically opposed in their I want nature. We're so accustomed to the I want of either like a Disney princess or a moisture farmer from Tatooine or whatever. What do you know? You stare off into the distance. I want, I want to go adventuring. And the fact that there would be someone like May who was like, like you, I want to stay home. I'm good where I am. Yeah.

With my cozy blanket and my cat. Like, I don't need to go adventuring. I have everything I want right here. I can door dash whatever I need. I'm fine. So that idea of May as a creature who exists to be in opposition to the classic...

Star Wars, heroic, I want to get off this rock and go see another. Does it rain on another planet? I would like to know. Stuff like that. Tell me of your home world, Usul. Yeah, it's that part of the twin dynamic and the recurring nature of their conversation, that aspect at least was interesting to me because I think one of the things that the episode does well is

Neither of them is really clearly right or clearly wrong, and that's the point. It's about what you want, and there are some lovely conversations later that we'll get to between Mother Anisea and Osha about episodes called Destiny for a Reason, this idea of pulling on the thread, making choices, doing something different. We should not think that Osha's desire to heed the call to adventure...

is in any way wrong. And it's like a very relatable thing to say, well, oh my God, like if I got, I was going to say, if I got my Hogwarts letter, the Jedi coming to steal you and like, you'll never see your family again. Like at least the Hogwarts kids get to go home on holidays.

And, like, Hagrid open with a cake, not, would you like to handle my lightsaber? I have some questions about the lightsaber handover. But, you know, of course, like, the idea of going out into the wider world and discovering, I think we both were thinking a little bit of the Harfoots and Marigold and Nori from, again, season one of Rings of Power with that, like,

Have you ever wondered? Why would you? Yeah, Noria, like, haven't you ever wondered? And the Harfoot, the village, this group of people, like, well, nobody walks alone. Like, we stay together. We do our thing. This is how we do it. Why would you want to do it any other way? And out there lies danger and risk and harm. And then similarly, like, for May, I think that May comes off as...

The difference between them ultimately is that Osha doesn't tell May that she has to do what Osha wants. Whereas May does say, you have to do what I want. And that is a distinction that the episode should cause. Or I'll kill you. Or I'll kill you. That happened quickly. That's a real anchorman. Like, that escalated quickly. Gifmo.

We have some questions. We have some theories about that, for sure. Oh, man. But you can understand wanting to stay home with your family and not losing the person closest to you in the world. And you can understand wanting to go explore something new. When staying at home means you're never allowed to leave the fortress, that's a bit of a bummer, right? When all you want to do is sit under a poison tree and pull the wings off gummy bears. And then, like...

When your twin is like, let's say our codependent rhyme together, right? I am with you always one, but born as two. As above sit the stars, as below lies the sea. I give you you, you give me me. That's not healthy behavior, even though it is a jaunty little rhyme. Yeah. And I'm going to hit you with our first of many Force Dyad references. And I refuse to apologize. No. Because it's just the text of this show. Yeah. Here's what Ben Solo says.

My mother was the daughter of Vader. Remember this, Rise of Skywalker? My mother was the daughter of Vader. Your father was the son of the Emperor. What Palpatine doesn't know is we're dyed in the forest, Rey, two that are one. That language, two that are one. Yes. Always one, but born as two. It's very intentional, referential. Yes. This idea of like one...

one force being. We're going to talk more about the Immaculate Conception stuff, which obviously ties to, you're talking about Kylo right here, but that obviously ties us to Anakin. We're connecting in interesting ways to some key figures in Star Wars canon here. The later line about their particular connection via the thread also kind of reinforces this. This definitely feels like Theory Corner fodder.

Here comes, why can't I kill these Jedi, Mother Quarrel. Yeah.

a Zabrak. And she's like, what are you doing outside the fortress? Yes. We got to go home. What are you doing out here? And you're like, wow, that's a little harsh. And then the music gets ominous. We see a hooded figure lurking behind a tree. And we're like, who's this villain? And then we're like, oh, it's our favorite character soul. Tough moment. Hot bummer for us. The soul patrol, as one of our listeners called it. Wow. Yord horde and soul patrol. Exactly. I love it. I love it too. Um,

So I love this. Again, this is the what point of view from a certain point of view. Soul, our favorite character of the show so far with the hood up lurking in a sneaking in a snoop behind a tree. Well, and this is some children. One of the things that makes the is this OSHA's point of view episode really

really complex because at least so far we have no we still don't know why Osha left the Order but it seems like that relationship Oh yeah is intact and strong and that there would not be a reason and Osha is the one in this timeline who's like I want to go I want to be a Jedi so if it's just Osha's point of view then like why is that the framing? She would not have called for that music cue Yeah exactly She would not have been like She would have scored that scene differently She wouldn't have been like cue the Sinister Bassoons please And so that makes it feel like it's more of the

Coven perspective or a mix or entwined or just not quite as tidy. It's just a little messy because we'll talk about this a little later on or we can just talk about it right now. The Rashomon perspective of this. No one's ever seen the 1950 classic Kurosawa film Rashomon. It is a story where multiple people tell their version of a murder and every time you see it because you see it over and over again, it is told differently. Yeah, and if you'd like a more contemporary experience

You could watch modern classic The Affair. Where are you, Jeff? I can't believe.

Yes, you can. You can believe it. Is it because Jodie Turner-Smith was married to Joshua Jackson who was on The Affair and that's why you're thinking about The Affair? Man, yeah. Cole is always on my mind. The first half of the episode is one character's perspective on events and the second half is another's and they're off to the details. They're quite distinct. Watch either The Affair or Rashomon. Same.

Same level of quality. We all agree. So Rashomon is very strictly in a point of view. This is not what we're watching here. But I would say skewed towards Osha's point of view, just because the key things that we don't see, the reason we don't see them is because we're with Osha, is sort of how it feels. Okay, here's my question for you. Okay. Did Georgia O'Keeffe, fame painter of...

Suggestive flowers. Design this fortress. Could be. Okay. Yeah, could be. Not the first thing in Star Wars, whether it's a mountainous lair or a sarlacc pit. Oh, I was thinking what Rey dives into. Yeah, or that. On Octo, yeah. You know, a lot of moments in Star Wars where we are...

you know, the camera and the audience alike penetrating some sort of vaginal abyss. So there's a lot to, lot to think about there. Thank you. Given that we're about to head into an all female coven. Yep. Uh,

And given that Ocean may have two mothers, given how little of a fair core we are in our time here, I think the shape of this particular fortress is wholly intentional. We get the first glimpse of the dual moons in the background of the fortress. We'll see them much more when the sky is dark for the Ascension. We'll see them aligning. We'll see them aligning. But I think that...

Seeing them there, noting that the red and the blue form the O in the Acolyte logo. That's a really fun moment for me.

Anything you want to say about spice creams? Sounds absolutely delicious. I have some questions about the trade policy of this enclave of women. How do they get all their goods? Are they wholly self-sufficient or do they take their long bows and go out trading in the galaxy? We know they're hunters. They hunt in all seasons. Interesting conversation about that later in the episode. Anyway,

But, like, where do they get the reeds for their baskets? You know what I mean? Yeah. Yeah, interesting. Perhaps they're involved in an exchange with another coven of exiled witches? Yeah.

Yeah. Could that be possible? Coven trade. Like dotted across... Dotted? Dotted? A smattering. A smattering of witch covens across the galaxy, the different natural resources at your disposal in a given location. It's a great question. This is why you're the best. Because you were thinking about how would this society actually function? And I was thinking...

How can I get my hands on a spice cream immediately? What is the commute at this exact moment in time down to Galaxy's Edge from my home? And, you know, if Coral wants the children to remain content in the fortress, let them have a fucking snack. A sweet treat. Yeah. My girls. You know, I'm not a parent.

So I don't actually know how to ensure that children have balanced nutritional diets. But when Halo's like, I'd like to treat him like, you got it, buddy. What if he had misbehaved and gone outside the house when he's not supposed to? Well, he's an angel. Oh, and never does anything wrong. And everything he does is perfect. Okay, so one thing I will note is when they walk into this courtyard filled with many goods and services that one creator could not provide, um,

The women seem to be bowing to the girls. So they have this place and we'll find out later that they're the reason these women aren't going to go extinct, that they've found some young women here. Leslie Hedlund has said these witches are not the Nightsisters, but they are inspired by the Nightsisters and also the path of the open hand. Yeah.

which is, you know, a fringe sect, I would say, that you could read about in the High Republic novels. So if you want to do your High Republic homework, again, you don't have to, but you can. But the Path of the Open Hand is one of those groups that had a different point of view when it came to the Force and how to use it. And that the Jedi shouldn't be allowed to. Yeah. Yeah.

Nightsisters, of course, on our minds here, the thread language that we got some real, oh, it's ping in great mothers in Ahsoka for me, comps there. Just helpful in terms of clarifying for us that it's not the same to give us purple mist instead of green. When we're pulling the magic down and using it to plant a farm attack on a youngster. We've got beautiful face tattoos and not like...

horrible white makeup like we saw on the Night Sisters of Ahsoka. Our robes are purple, they're not red. Yeah, all the color coding is really helpful. Do you think May's purple robe in her I'm gonna sneak around and kill a lot of Jedi mode, is that a nod to her origins, her culture? Could be. You know, there is a pretty ominous hey kiddo, if I die, make sure you carry it

our traditions moment during the ascension yeah so it could be part of how may is honoring this history and honoring what at least she believes is her effort to do exactly that yeah uh it could be that she like me is a passionate believer uh that this is the year the ravens will will win the lombardi trophy it could be that that's possible okay all right um i do not think that's no for you i will choose to believe this whole episode is dedicated to the ravens okay thanks pal

We get a lot of other stuff between Coral and Anisea who have different ideas of how to raise these children. Yeah. A lot of these themes will come back more, so we'll talk about them later. But the twins are not normal children. Right.

a big moment that happens here. And then we get into this forced lesson. And by forced lesson, I of course mean a thread lesson with Mother Anisea. Again, this is like one of those moments where they just let Jodie Turner Smith cook. Wonderful. Wonderful. Like hypnotic and mesmerizing. Steve, will you hit us with this clip? All living things are connected by the same thread. A thread woven through all of existence.

Some call it a force. I claim to use it. But we know the thread is not a power you wield. Pull the thread, change everything. It ties you to your destiny. It binds you to others. Valerie Rubin, as you mentioned, I love witch stuff. You love a witch. You hate a crevice, but you love a witch. I love...

and fate and destiny. So we, of course, have to talk for a second about the fact that when we covered Ahsoka, we were noting every single time. Yeah.

House Hottie or one of the Nightsisters or Morgan were mentioning threads in Fate. The threads of Fate. Fate has decided our next move. What thread is she spinning? It was a loose thread, they say, about something they couldn't see coming. The thread of Fate has spoken to us. The thread of destiny demands it. Right? These are classic. It is a loose thread. It was a really fun one. It was a loose thread. It was a really, really fun one. So, like...

Obviously, they were like a reference to the fates, and we talked a lot about the mythology around that. But I think it's no coincidence that we're talking about magic and the Force in similar language across these different witchy covens. Yes, which I love. The tie to the covens. Because even though, again, these are not the Nightsisters, that is another...

We don't have enough information about this coven to really make a call, but the question of like, well, what is darkness? Magic! When you're wielding your magic and tapping into some sort of dark power. Yeah. Then the way that other force users or other pockets of society think of you as a threat. Right. Unnatural. Un...

Natural. So that's fascinating. I mean, it just feels very intentional. Could have been enforced by any other name here, but the fact that we got the thread language is intended to make us think of this. As Ben pointed out, and I have to agree, when Mother Anisea says, we know the thread is not a power you wield, but then they go on to talk about power a lot in this episode, and it's just a little like...

I think that has to be intentional. They're not sloppy writers here on this show. So I think it's just like Mother Anastasia, who I really like and I would absolutely join her coven in a minute. Yeah, of course. She's incredible. Is perhaps a bit hypocritical or slightly deceptive in the way that she talks about... You know, when she says later, no weapons, no violence, and then takes over the mind of Torben. You know, I'm like, that's... Yeah. And again, I like...

It's maybe too soon to say whether that's just, like, not a perfectly executed line or whether that's almost intentional hypocrisy, because that's another interesting parallel. If this group of characters looks at the Jedi and say, what gives you the right X, Y, and Z, your relationship to the Force, the way you think about who else can use it or tap into it, or even what it is inherently. Like, I thought the...

Obviously, everything about the thread and Destiny, because Destiny is the name of the episode. There are a number of other lines about Destiny that we'll talk about as we go. Certainly, that's the thrust of this, but I thought the claim to use it language was as notable because the idea that the Force is something you can...

tap into or channel versus the idea that it's a great tapestry that you are stitched into. And pull the thread, which I don't feel like I have a full grasp on what is meant by that. It's used again later in another beautiful moment. I don't think we have a clear comp for that. It's not the same as use the force loop. Like, it's not the same thing. So I would love to learn more. If they want to just do a full, like,

short spinoff on on social media of episode of mother yeah we're still doing webisodes right like a quibi maybe mother and servants like i would uh go watch them all but i think that um what we want to talk about is this idea of the power of two the power of many yeah right um

We could talk about dyads again if you want to, of course. It's hard not to. But this idea of combining power amongst Jedi, and please tell me if I'm wrong about this, is not something we've seen a lot of. There's a few examples. There's season two, episode three of Clone Wars. We've got, and we talked about this, I think, leading up to the Ahsoka podcast. We've got

Yoda and Obi-Wan and Mace and Anakin are like meditating to find the Force. They are meditating sort of together. That feels like a combination of Force power. But overall, this idea of like combining power is much more of a Sith concept, at least in the Legends, than it is a Jedi concept. Do you agree or disagree about that? Interesting. Yeah, I think that inside of the Jedi across the

it can be all of the above, but, and I think that could be, it could be all of the above one or the other in a given moment and with a given character set for either the Sith or the Jedi. Because like, you know, we talk about the rule of two a lot, right? With the Sith. A dyad is like two beings who become one force being. What is the master and apprentice relationship? Now that's not the same as rule of two, but. Yeah, but it's never like, it's never like,

Qui-Gon's never like, Obi-Wan, join hands with me and we will use the Force stronger together. Exactly. And this is what I think is interesting about it. It's like the Jedi, it's a wide, vast, especially in the stretch of the canon, collective. You have temples everywhere. You have these groups of people. Local temples. It always goes completely fine for the younglings who are assembled at a given locale. But then there is this, the defining relationship in your life is,

is going to be with this one other person. And so I think, like, all of those things are true at once. It was hard not to think about on the power of many front. We have not seen this yet. We have no idea how this will come into play in the season. And trailers can often be deceptive. But the shot of, like, all the lightsabers activating at once, that feels like, oh, power of many. You were asking last week when Sol and May were fighting. Mm-hmm.

you asked a couple things. Why doesn't everybody just kick dirt up into somebody else's face? But also, like, do you think Yord, one of your questions was, do you think Yord pulled the blade? And, like, does that, is that something that's kind of priming us for the idea of, like, let's work together and tap into some larger force? So I think that's interesting, but I was also struck by, and this might be an inaccurate over-reading of the scene, what am

first time but in the stretch where the power of two stretch yeah where Mother Anisea is first like it's a little bit of a tutelage for the youngsters right and Mother Anisea is first facing off against one other person and then against two right

And there seemed to be a little bit of a, like, there's a pushing gesture. Mm-hmm. And then there was against two, like, kind of like a pulling and then a holding, like a harnessing. Like, she had actually, it seemed to me like they were implying that there was an ability to actually harness more power. Yeah. Right? With more people. Yes. Like, literally. Like, hold more power in your hands. Yes.

And obviously... Like greater than the sum of their parts. Yeah, and obviously that's happening then later in the ascension as well where there's... I'm not an astrologist nor an astronomer. I don't really...

It's a lot of things I'm not. Star stuff? Sure. Star stuff? Yeah. But it almost looked like the two moons were like in an eclipse state, right? Oh, yeah. Yes. At that max power. They were aligning. Two as one. An alignment. And a pulling, a channeling of that power from two as one that is then ported. Yes. And the blue and the red of the moon being pulled down into this purple-tinged power. Yes.

It is a power. It sure is. And what do you do? What happens when you combine a light cider saber and a dark cider saber? You get your blue and your reds. This season on Naughty at Island. When we were new, they spoiled me. They even gave me a phone. But then it's like I didn't exist.

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Okay, so we had the public thread force tutoring, and we get private tutoring. This is the benefit of your mom being in charge of the coven. You get private thread tutoring. We love prep. So this is where we get the line where it says, when their mother tells them that the thread tied them together since before they were born. This is the most force dyad talk that we've heard so far, I think, right? Yeah.

Yeah, I think so. I mean, it's difficult not to think. Okay. Force Diane. Let me hit you with a Palpatine quote. Legends claim that two beings shared this profound connection gain access to a great number of ability skills beyond the grasp of even the most powerful force wielder. That's a good Palpy. Thanks. Well, great Palpy. Love that Palpy.

What about Mother Anisea saying that the Ascension is going to require that they walk through fear? Yeah, some like litany against fear or dune energy, you know? Jedi trial of courage energy. We love that. Yeah. That's interesting, too, with the Ascension and the trials, like thinking about...

similarities and differences between, like, a different ritual in a different group and how they relate to the Force and think about what it means to, like, graduate to a different level of readiness or connectivity to that. This was a fascinating stretch because I think that, like, idea of being tied together, the fear, all of it, there's a lot of, like...

Guidance and nurturing, but also then like, here, let me literally put your hands together. Don't let go. Yeah. And like, you're going to have to give up a part of yourself for the greater whole. There's so much. And again, this is the something that I like about this episode, this inherent contradiction inside of Anastasia where she will be so like, yeah, as you say, nurturing and supportive, but also like, but I'm sure you're going to do this.

Right? Osha is like literally trembling as she walks up to the Ascension ceremony and none of those witches seem to care at all. No, everybody's compelled her to do the thing that she clearly doesn't want to do. And I thought even the like, you think you want something different than life in this coven, but that is because you were young. The galaxy is not a place that welcomes women like us was another instance of it's a duality at play there. Because I think the first part of that, just because you're young.

you know, that's again like that kind of like Marigold, Nori, Harfoot idea, right? Nobody goes off the trail. But there's this like, you can't fast forward anything

those formative years in your life when you discover things for yourself. Yeah. Right? And that's not a bad thing to want. And so trying to say, like, well, it's just because you don't know. It's like, well, right, go find out. That's part of what it means to be a person and, like, go on your own journey of discovery. But then you get to the second part of that, and you see that that comes from a nurturing and protective instinct. And so it feels like the thing that is driving that is well-intentioned. Yeah.

We are in exile. We've been persecuted. We were persecuted. Yeah, yeah. Don't leave the fortress because somebody might be waiting right around the tree bend to take you away from us. But then if it manifests ultimately in you feeling like you can't live your own life. Yeah. It's real King Triton. People on land eat fish, so you can't go up there, Ariel. And she's like, well, what if I have legs, though? Yeah.

Another part of the Ascension ceremony is to sacrifice a part of themselves, which is like a very sort of like, again, this very sort of like socialist force user idea. There's a council of 12 here. It is, you know, we are in a share power coven, but Mother Anisea does get final word. She's like, everyone share power, but also I'm the final word on everything. Great stuff. Because I cooked us up some midichlorian special twins. Yeah.

is the specialness of these twins why the Sith are so interested in May or in May and Osha because there is this like outside of the movies Doctrine of the Dyad is this Sith lore long promised carved into the wall of the Sith Citadel in Exegol I know you're so excited to talk about Exegol again always you're like take me back to Exegol always but like

In canon, Darth Plagueis tried to create a dyad with Sidious. Sidious tried to create one with Vader. And that failed attempt is how we got Kylo and Rey. So, like, the dyad is something that the Sith have been after for a very long time. And I'm wondering, this is something that a friend of the pod, Dave Gonzalez, and I were talking about recently, which is, like, Mando was bogged. The Mandalorian in, like, season two and three is bogged down so much by trying to, like, explain the cloning Palpatine plot. Yeah.

Is this is a mandate of the show make us feel more comfy with the concept of the dyad? What do you think? Anytime we can talk about the Sith Eternal and Exegol, we have to do it.

I think that it is, again, like impossible not to be thinking about these things when you're in the stretch of the episode. We were hunted, persecuted, forced into hiding all because some would consider our power dark. Unnatural. I mean, of course, this makes us think of Palpatine. It makes us think of Anakin. It makes us think of Revenge of the Sith before we get to somehow Palpatine return and rise with Skywalker. The great, you know, the great seduction sequence. He could use the force to influence the midichlorians to create love.

Life. The dark side of the force is a pathway to many abilities some consider to be unnatural. And then you go back to like, okay, how are the characters in this episode of the Acolyte talking about this other than the word, the very deliberate utterance of the word unnatural. We were on the brink of extinction and then we were blessed with a miracle, the gift of life. So there's the sequence with Coral and Anisea talking about like, I carried them. I created them. Which is very act.

right like a first person way of talking about this this we were blessed with a miracle the gift of life makes it sound like something that they have received that there is another presence yeah maybe right made a deal with the devil for yeah this question of like

Using the word unnatural to make us think of that Palpatine speech and the association with potentially using the midichlorians to create life. Was Mother Anisea guided in some respect? Was this something that they knew they wanted to do and then they had to seek some sort of like assistance or boon if they have in fact succeeded in creating a forced dyad in some capacity? Then is this something that the Sith...

And the Jedi would be seeking either to use or to eliminate. Like, you could look at that from any different perspective. Separate all of that. What the thread has tied together, no one can separate. And so what if somebody needs to or thinks they need to because what that thread represents when it is intact is too dangerous. Yeah, yeah.

This idea of separation, I think, is a good one to transition into this email we got from Sarah. And I really love this email because I did hear the car. I really love the car coming through the studio. It was really nice. That was good.

What Sarah is underlining here is this idea, you know, we're talking about like, okay, we're reminded of Anakin, we're reminded of Qui-Gon, we're reminded of twins we've seen before in Star Wars, all this other stuff. She's underlining here how intentional that might be. So she says, Sarah writes, even though Yoda is not mentioned at all in the show, instances or phrases always make me think of Yoda's scenes.

Saul and Osha's conversation about grief made me think of Yoda and Anakin in episode three when Yoda talks to Anakin about his dreams. Saul's conversation talks about grief, naming that emotion for Osha, whereas Yoda says to not to mourn or miss those who return to the force. Quote, learn to let go of all that you fear to lose. The other thing that keeps popping into my mind is Yoda's decision to separate Luke and Leia.

Yoda says that they need to split them up to hide them from the Emperor. It makes me wonder if there's something special about twins born of the Force and what power that unlocks. Force dyads is a term that's been thrown around a lot, but I know Luke and Leia weren't Force dyads as both don't have the healing powers like Rey and Kylo.

It's small, but why was Yoda so insistent on keeping the twins separated to hide them from the gaze of the Emperor? Maybe it goes beyond having two powerful Force users together, which would tip off Sidious. Maybe it's a power he's seeking. Also, to address if Osha and Mei's conception cheapens Anakin's,

It reminds us of the, quote, potential Chosen One trope that is in so many stories like Harry Potter, Game of Thrones, Dune, and even the Bible. Perhaps Osha and May are the reason the Jedi Council in the prequels is so afraid and wary of Anakin's power. Maybe this instance sparks the Chosen One prophecy and also pointed to as an example when deciding not to take older children to begin training. So it's not just like...

As we were talking about, oh, them saying Osha is too old makes us think of Anakin. Maybe that's the reason why they were so scared of taking Anakin is because of someone like Osha. That last part is pretty compelling to me. Yeah, it is. Because as you know, I actually bumped on that a little bit in the premiere. Like, okay, another. But if that is, that's an example of the kind of active connection that I would find pretty rich and interesting. You know, we should say like the chosen one

prophecy dates back. Definitely. Back, back, back, back, back. And so that's just like the specific language there's obviously like a long explanation in Legends but in canon, new canon, the specific language

includes born of no father. Right. Right. And so the idea that they would be or one of them or both, like, is it a threat? Are you a candidate? Right. Who sees you as a threat? Who sees you as a candidate? That is like really interesting and fascinating. Very Neville Longbottom, right? Yeah. My sweet Neville. Yeah. Yeah. Who does that make Nagini in this situation? But the like... I'm scared to tell you. The...

Phantom Menace, Shmi, line. There was no father. I carried him. I gave birth. I raised him. I know I'm jumping forward a little bit, but obviously I think it connects to what is being raised in this email. I can't explain what happened. The comics, Darth Vader, number 25. That stretch where we see Palpatine...

It's absolutely horrific, right? Arms around Shmi. This seems to like, we get the there was no father, we get the unnatural, we get the chosen one as our little words. And it seemed to be canon confirmation that Palpatine had used the Force to use the midichlorians to create midichlorian Jesus. Yes. Matt Martin from Lucasfilm was very active on Twitter about

And saying that that was not the case and encouraging people to keep in mind that that is, we're in Anakin's head when we're reading those panels. Are you saying it's from a certain point of view? Which, again, feels like very thematically interesting. So I, like, when I read that comic, I think a lot of Star Wars fans who read that comic were like, we got it. It's canon. That's what happened. And maybe it is, but maybe it isn't. And the fact that we still don't know that and now we have other characters who are interesting, like, pathways into assessing that.

is pretty interesting to me. I'm intrigued by this part of it and this connection. I really like this idea. I mean, like, whether or not it applies to the Luke and Leia, but I think that's interesting, this idea of, like, let's keep Force twins separate. Let's be wary of...

children born of no father who are a little too old to join the order. We've been here before. Whether or not Yoda actually enters the fray, which you and I both agree we do not want. It is, hopefully this story survives the people who are in this show somehow. Yeah.

somehow someone survived but still was surprised by the Sith. Somehow Palpatine returned and somehow someone remembers every lesson here and allowed Palpatine to rise. Yeah, and, you know, Daenerys Targaryen forgot about the Iron Throne. Things happen. Okay, listen. We're going to skip to the Ascension.

And here's what I have to say. I'm going to say it down the camera. It's the Ascension, baby. And it fucks. It rules. This is one point on which Benjamin Lindbergh and I wildly disagree because he thought this was dumb and hokey. And I think these cool witches in their hot velvet outfits swaying and singing. There's a musical number.

There is a musical number. And there is magic. Imagine. And there is like magical threads being pulled from the very stars themselves. Yeah. That part I liked. This ruled. Pulling down the magic from the... I loved this. The moons was cool. I... Yeah. I enjoyed parts of this. No, come to the light with me. The... Like Mother Anastasia kind of...

moving through the thing that was in the trailer. That was, I was like, this is great. I'm like actually afraid to say this to you because I love you and I don't want to hurt you, but the musical number, I was not totally sold on. No, it didn't bother me. I was just like,

What if I just like call you occasionally or leave you occasional voice memos that are like, the power of one, the power of two, the power of many. Let's find out. Brighten your day. I would love it. Yeah, I think I would love it. I would love it. Ben alluded to this in his recap. There are two mysterious robed figures. And some people are wondering if they're just like some Sith pals hanging out at the front of the congregation here. But you also see similarly robed figures at the

back and they have long bows. So I really think these are just more like we're not actively participating in the ceremony because we've got some like guarding guard duty to do it. I am disinclined to believe that those are two Sith. Yeah. Standing at the front of the ceremony. I am absolutely not ruling out some sort of Sith manipulation. Sure. Either of the Coven or of the Jedi. Or why not both? Yeah. Right. But I don't know that the hooded figures are necessarily. Right. Sith.

As we think about how much the musical number rules and no one has any comments or concerns about it and how great it is, let's hear from Mother Anisea about this particular ceremony. Tonight we enact a ceremony we have not performed since our exile. We were hunted, persecuted, forced into hiding, all because some would consider our power dark, unnatural, strange.

We were on the brink of extinction! And then, we were blessed with a miracle! The gift of life!

Hey, Steve, can we ask you to like in the middle of our pod, just every couple sentences to start making that sound for us? The yipping? Yeah, so we know we're doing great. Thank you, Steve. If you could incorporate that into your process, we'd, I think, appreciate it. I really am remiss that I mentioned the velvet, I mentioned the dancing, I mentioned the musical number, and I forgot to mention the Xena warrior princess yululations that also happen here. The Clues captioning said laughs manically, and I thought that

was the closed captioning sort of like tipping their hand of like, this is an evil coven if they're laughing manically. But I'm like, that's just a jubilation. That's just a joyous yip. Listen, we have out of nothing created some twins and now we're going to one of them against their will and view them with a power that we have drawn down from the very stars themselves. You know, also like it's a lesson for us all because we

Mere hours later, they are all mysteriously killed in a very powerful fire slash rock slide. So live in the moment while you can. How much time do you think passes? Because there's like the whole, like, they have to walk over, do the Jedi test, come back, have a lot of different conversations. It's like, they've got, yeah, 24 hours to live. It's thereabouts. Yeah. You can only have so many spice creams in that time. Listen, says you. Okay, so...

We get it, right? The lesbians can't procreate without midichlorian IVF. And they did it. They made these twins.

I don't know if it's important that we learn Mei and Osha's full names, but I thought that they were really pretty. Meiho and Verosha. Yeah. And I like every time they call Osha Oshi. I think that's very cute as well. You already mentioned that Mother Anisea is like, when I die, protect the secrets in 24 hours. Protect the secrets of the coven. Here come the Jedi. What could go wrong? What could possibly go wrong? Slicing in. Like, we're back with DJ in The Last Jedi. Yeah.

Love a slice. There was also that, like, before we get the slicing here and then before we get, of course, the crackling explosion of the control room amid the very powerful fire leader, there was the moment earlier in the episode. When they're like, what's all that? What's all that? What is that? Is that, like, is someone, like, running, like, an iOS update in the engine room?

Like, what was that? So are there vats, the rats in the wall of the Red Keep? It primes us like something feels amiss before this. So is that something the Jedi are doing? Is there a saboteur inside? Stay tuned. Oh, it's an inside job. Stay tuned for the next flashback is what I would say when it comes to that.

Here come all the Jedi, right? We had already seen Saul, but we get Indara, we get Torben, and we get Kelnaka, and every single one of them has bangs. No.

A friend of mine texted me. He's like, next time I go get my haircut, I'm going to tell them I want the flashback Saul. And I'm like, it's a good look. It is. It's very talented. Looks great. Loved it. We talked a lot about this already. Anything you want to... I will say Indara, I love Carrie Ann Moss. I love Trinity. I am a big fan. Indara, I'm not that into. And I think, especially when we think about whatever happened here, and we'll talk about our theories in a little bit, but whatever happened here,

Torben's like, I got to go meditate for a decade about this. And Dara's like, I'm going to hang out at the bar with my pals. Kelmaka's like, I'm going to live off the grid forever. Sol's like, I'm going to dedicate myself to the teaching of children. And Dara's like, whatever. And Dara's like, tell me about your IPA and your noodles. Exactly.

Oh, you got some Dan and Nudel? Okay. Spicy? They did look delicious. But she seems to have no-ish with what happened here. And if anybody hasn't listened to the Midnight Boys episode yet, obviously check that out. And Charles is officially planting his flag on Indara Island. I don't like this theory. Yeah, it's not my theory either, though I do think obviously something, the Jedi did something very wrong here. That's clear. I don't think that Indara is going to be...

the Sith, the stranger, the he, the person we keep hearing about under the helmet in the premiere. But I do think, whether it is just a misreading of the Jedi mission, some sort of power, She's their leader in this, right? Like, you know, Sol is like seemingly second in command. She's first command. Torben's only a Padawan and Kalnaka's there for the vibes, it seems like. And to fix the motorcycles. We have to talk for a second before we get back to what Indara...

about the Jedi might is right presence here, which I think was horrifying and we were meant to think was horrifying. Yes. Just for a second.

We must, like, luxuriate in the levity of... Okay, there's, like... I love to luxuriate in the levity. I love to luxuriate in the levity. I know we've got some notes on... Okay, hide the children. They're here to steal our children, hide the children, and then the children are just, like, loudly conversing while I'm hiding. Oh, shut up. I know that that did not sit well with you. It bothered me. But... And then narcs on May, too. Yeah, it's like, when did your sister come down? Yeah, May! Yeah!

You definitely don't want to do this. We do get the little, like, nod from Mother Anisea. But the moment where Coral says, Coral, you know, doing her best. There are no kids here. Like, we all know there are kids. There are no kids here.

And the Jedi's like, we didn't know there was anyone here. And she's like, there are no kids here. We're all telling the truth together. And then Kalnaka loudly roars and the subtitling says sniffs. Yeah. Like, this is just so funny to me. Anyway. I'm luxuriant in that levity. Thank you so much for sharing it. Indara. Indara. Okay. So the...

wild yeah like oh sorry we just happened upon your secret fortress we thought this was an uninhabited planet obviously horseshit everybody knows it's we think you have children here because soul was snooping around the the tree which and like they they out themselves because soul later in the scene would be like she she had that tattoo before that morning

But yeah. As their lightly tormented beautiful creatures. This is something forbidden by Republic law. Yes. And Anisea very reasonably points out. We're not in the Republic. We're not in the Republic, bro. So what's your jurisdiction here? You break into their home. Slicing the platform. You slice your way in. Yeah. Has someone made it easier for you to do that? Maybe. But you've done that. You...

state that it is your right to be able to test these children. Obviously, this opens up some interesting thinking. We have a lot to noodle on always with what it means for a youngling to be taken away from their family to make their way into the Order. You gain something, this new life and opportunity, but you leave something behind. Like Anakin, a character who grew up with a family, and now we have these other characters who are older at this point. Okay, well, why would the Jedi, why would you not be able to ever see your family?

Why would you not be able to maintain that attachment? Well, here's a character like Anakin Skywalker who had to go back and commit a mass slaughter. The women and the children. To a fish tank.

Right. So, but like to see it, to see them go in and say like, they're ours was really disturbing. Yeah. Really, really disturbing. And this question of like, again, the kind of gatekeeping of power that you were raising last week and how that plays here, but also just like who is entitled to what? And so we think about this, like on a say a line about

power, which we'll talk about. And then it's all connected, right? We're entitled to... It makes me think a little bit of Alicent and Rhaenyra in the great eye-for-an-eye fight in season one. Even that you feel entitled, right? This question of what is the limit on what you think is yours?

And it goes back to our very first moments with Indara and also her very last moments on Earth when she says, who trained you? Yeah. And then I have an unidentified force user. So of all the Jedi that we see here, Indara is the hardliner, which is like part of why I really do not think that, with love and respect to Charles, he's a great...

smart, wonderful critic, but this theory corner I cannot join him on. Sol says the Jedi do not take children, which is deeply untrue. I mean, it's just not accurate. It's just untrue. I love Sol, but that is just simply not the case. And then just like plunks his saber into the hand of a child.

Also, not great. I like the moment of playing on our anxiety there when he reaches for it. Like, oh, are we about to resort to violence? No, it's something very innocent. I'm just going to put this... I'm just going to hand this weapon to a child to try to lower her. Yeah, this is just a horrible weapon. Yeah, exactly. From a more civilized age. So listen.

Mistakes were made on all sides because Mother Anisea then takes over Torben's mind. And we're going to come back to this. This was a tough one. But... This was a tough one. Were you thinking about Sabine in Rebels being taken over by the Nightsisters? Sure, yeah. And of course, also like the changing of the eyeball that we saw in the dream state... For May. For May in the premiere of that, I think really exacerbates the question of was somebody, like we talked about last pod, planting...

That vision for OSHA intentionally, we came down on the yes corner, I think, seeing this year. And is that a hint? Makes us feel even more certain. Yeah, right. Is that a hint of who might be doing it? And that feels like just apparent now, right? Like that somebody's doing that. But that question of like, okay, this was almost watching this happen to Torben.

returned to his right mind. It was almost... But he also was, like, kind of gasping in pain. In violation, yeah. Like, there was this, like, imperio crucio combo play there. Yeah. And so I think it is...

right and reasonable for us to be discussing like well is it fair that they were persecuted and forced into exile because other people think their powers are dark when like maybe x y and z points to otherwise and then you see something like this and you're like this is like a vile thing right it is so it's just like again to the point it's like constantly teetering back and forth i think um

The witch's council happens. We have that whole, like, carried and created line that we talked about. The girls will take the test. They're supposed to throw the test. Yeah. The girls just have the same fight again and again about who wants to stay and who wants to leave. We don't need to go into it too much.

what do you want to say about the Jedi test and how do you feel about young Padawan Torben just, um, stealing the blood? I never like it when the Jedi do this. Just jabbing someone. I never like it when the Jedi do this. This is standard Jedi procedure to take the blood and test it. Qui-Gon move? Well, no, but Qui-Gon's way worse because he's like, let me just clean your wound for you. Oh, what am I doing? I'm just checking your blood. Like,

I rewatched that Qui-Gon scene and I was like, that was so dicey, dude. So at least Torben's like, this is what I'm doing. But I'm just saying, say that before the jab, not like mid or post jab. That's my note for young Padawan Torben there. Yeah, it's awesome.

all a little fucked up. I think anytime you're taking the blood of a child to test and screen it, to decide if they're worthy of your tutelage without telling them what you're doing, when also they're only there in the first place after you basically manipulated their coven and family into feeling like they had no choice but to grinch. Jedi not looking great in this episode so far? This question. It's an interesting one. You know, again, this larger question of the grayness at play. Because...

And we have this, like, is it light? Is it dark? Is everyone gray in this story? And I think the dyad and, like, good or evil twin trope is also connected to that, right? Because there's a version of this, and it's the one we've, on the surface, at least, that's

seen so far where it's like, Osha's the good twin, Mae's the evil twin, but we don't, that's not what we, that's not what we believe is. We've already seen nuanced behavior in that when, when Mae puts, like, walks out of the noodle bar. Exactly. That's like, almost feels like the expectation that we are going to then subvert. Yeah. So,

Because we're talking a lot about dyads. The other thing that was pinging for me in this episode with all the like, you know, we're one, we're born as two. No, no, say it the right way. You'll have to say it.

I'm going to leave it to you to sing to me. The power of one, the power of two, the power of many. Yeah, you already love this song. You love it. It is growing on me. It's a bit of an earworm. I was thinking a little bit of the ones, the Mortis gods, and like this idea of a very powerful force family where you have the daughter associated with the light side, the son associated with the dark side, and the father as balance. And like,

whether certain characters would, whether it's true or not, think that that's what was happening here or whether inside of a dyad, that is part of how you achieve balance is if that actually is happening and then part of what will disrupt or upend how this dyad functions.

Is that flipping or morphing or not ending up being such a clean and tidy divide? There is so much that I hate about The Rise of Skywalker. But something that I really like is when we get that vision of Dark Rey, right? And when we get Kylo Ren as Ben Solo. So that idea of pulling towards the dark, pulling towards the light, and is the...

purpose of the dyad to find some balance in the middle right um right we get the testing of osha yeah straight out of phantom menace same prop uh you know okay so i have a note on this okay now the actual things that anakin and we're not okay so crucially we're not in there with may

Right. We know we can glean that May successfully failed the test, but we're not in there with May. May knows how to follow orders from her mom. OSHA, not as good. We're in there with OSHA, so we see the test. And I just think this reminds me of like when I used to go back in the day when I actually did go to the eye doctor many moons ago. And I would just be like, you know.

I just can memorize the bottom line. And then every time they test the, like, I just know what the letters are. You used to cheat your eye tests? Maybe. Maybe not. But my point is, like, if you're a kid in a situation, you just go in and you'd be like, ship. You're, like, probably going to be right. Speeder, ship. You know, if you just throw out. Other ship. Some kind of cat. Like a sweet little cat. I think part of what we're able to read from Sol there is that he,

There is a moment where you're like, does he just want her to be failing on purpose or can he actually tell? Like, what can you sense through the force? Oh, I feel like he can tell. I think so, too. And that's another thing, by the way. This connection between them joined by the thread, the dyad theorizing. One thing that I am struggling with a little bit here is accepting. This episode made it even harder for me to accept that they would not know the other was alive.

in terms of their connection. Which, here's how I then work through that, to me just further cements the fact that somebody is manipulating this. And maybe that means there's an active block

from another party on their connection. Like Indara blocked her force chi. I love this. So what did you make of Sol pulling Osha aside during the test to share his history? This was such a major moment for me. Steve, can we hear our guy Sol? I was younger than you are. When the Jedi tested me, I was only four. Really? Yes. But I knew I was different from my family.

The Jedi saw how special I was, and I can see that in you, Osha. I was very scared to leave my family, but when I joined the Jedi, I found out there were many other children like me. There are other children there? Thousands like us. But you must have the courage to say what you want.

So this was already on my list as like really key moment of the episode. And then the Midnight Boys were also talking about how it felt so key to them. But I had already written my notes like that every time someone tells a story of being taken by the Jedi, it sounds...

harrowing. We've seen some slightly nicer versions like Ahsoka, stuff like that, but it reminded me so much of that scene in Obi-Wan episode three when Obi-Wan is talking to Leia and she's like, are you my real father? And he's like, I wish that I could say that I was, but no, I'm not. And she says, sometimes I try to imagine what he was like and Obi-Wan goes, I know that feeling. As Jedi, we're taken from our families when we're very young. I still have glimpses, flashes really, my mother's shawl, my father's hands.

I remember a baby. A baby? Yes, I think I had a brother. Kenobi exists. Really don't remember him. I wish I did. Then I joined the Jedi and I got a new family just like you. No prob. Who cares? And then everything was fine. And then everything was fine. Nothing went wrong. I had a new brother in Anakin. You were my brother. And that was fine. I never screamed to you.

Then that was fine. I definitely didn't have like flashes to the, my original brother. Anyway, Obi-Wan like sort of consummate company man. Yeah. Like also has this like harrowing origin story. So it's just like, you know, Saul is telling the story like this is a good thing. You're going to find a family. There are other children out there. You don't have to be stuck with your codependent twin as your only playmate. Like there's other options. Yeah. But you know, like,

He was afraid. He was scared to leave his family because he was four. Yeah, of course. And again, that idea that you have to leave them behind not just for a change in a new adventure, but forever. Like the finality of it. And of course, this connects to this attachment through line. And that was one of the things I really loved about... I mean, this was a fascinating episode to play on

our instant, our attachment to Saul because like... What does he know? When did he know it? Yeah, we're just in like a, oh my God, Jedi, we have some notes, a headspace throughout this entire episode, but the tenderness...

on display from him here is just so winning and the charisma is so warm. And that idea, but you must have the courage to say what you want, is in a very, I think, interesting and satisfying way, quite contrary to a lot of the lessons that the Jedi try to enforce on each other, right? It's about selflessness.

It's not about you. It's not about what you want, right? It's about this other thing, this grander mission that we have. And so for Sol to be a character who not only voices that aloud and thinks that about himself, but that is part of the lesson that he wants to impart to the person in his charge, right?

It felt very, very, very, very notable to me. I totally agree. We got an email from listener Jack, who they're saying it's a... It's a... Love the car. It's a theory I don't necessarily agree with, but I think it leads to somewhere interesting. Okay. Where Jack was wondering about the May and Sol fight in episode two and how May does not do the whole, like...

you know, we have unfinished business. Fight me with all of your strength line. And when she throws the knives, they go at Saul's feet. Did she throw a warning sort of shot on purpose or did he pull them down into the sand? We can debate that. But is Saul actually her target here? And we can talk about this later,

You know, in just a second, when Sol is looking for Mei and Osha, and I believe that that's true. Yeah. But, like, is he on her list? We know that four Jedi are on her list, but she never says Sol. Right.

OSHA is the one who's like, obviously you're on the list. So is it someone else on the list? Is it Vern? This is not Jack's theory. This is my theory. Is it Vern on the list? Because she's part of the cover-up. Like, is that true? Is the idea of killing... This Jack's theory is the idea of killing a Jedi without a weapon, not about doing it with a force, but about seducing them to the dark side. And Jack cites the times that Vader says, I killed Anakin Skywalker. Yeah.

Right. Right, like, by seducing him to, you know, becoming a dark side. And this connects to the kill the dream. Yeah, kill the dream sort of idea. So, like, is Saul going to be seduced to the dark side? I don't see that as a future for Saul, but I am worried always about Saul. And I'm worried that if he dies, um...

It might be Osha who does it. Yeah. If Osha finds out. More likely to me. More about what happened. Yes. In the fire. Yeah, that feels more likely and I think would also fit the kill the dream idea. Certainly. For both of those characters. For all of those characters. The idea of the Vader Anakin, that's how you could kill without a weapon, solve the dark side. It's intriguing to me, but I don't.

I don't see it going that way, but I think it's maybe more that I don't want it to, if I'm being honest, because I just feel that, you know, could it be done well? I'm sure. Could it be done tragically and poignantly? Certainly. Another character in Star Wars who the thing we know most to be true about them is like you're

You're a poster boy for attachment. Yeah. And then you fall to the dark side again. I think I would actually really dislike that. I really hope that's not what happens. I don't mind his attachment and his tenderness and Osha being his Achilles heel, being his downfall, being the thing that stays his hand when he needs to in a fight. That makes sense to me, but you're right. We don't necessarily need to do exactly that story anymore. I also... We'll see. Hmm.

The Bunta leaf keeps coming up. We've seen it in tree form. We've seen it in absolution form. Is a theory about what happened to the witches that I've seen going around is like,

We know that they have stores of Buntalief because they use it to hunt. Did the Buntalief supply go up in smoke and they inhaled it and died in a sort of like Jonestown poison thing? Perhaps the Chekhov thing that I am more closely tracking, and we already mentioned this in our breakdown of one and two, is when Chimera mentions the Jedi memory wipe. Don't wipe my memory, whatever you do. And we're dealing with

What does Osha know or remember? What does May know or remember? Yeah. Who has holes in their memory about that evening? Yeah. And even when Osha wakes up on the ship, she's like, maybe it's just a state of disorientation. Smoke inhalation. But yeah, I'm not subscribing to the Bunta cloud. Yeah.

Theory, I don't know how quickly a bunta gas dissipates from a room, but they saw that Osha do walk through there. So I don't know if that holds. I'm mostly basing that off of the moment where Osha is escaping through the tunnel and looks up through the grate. It's a flash. There's a shake. The fortress shakes. We hear them all scream. And then they're dead and they're surrounded by some...

some pieces of fallen rock. It just seems like someone used the force to kill them all or to sabotage the structure in a way that they all plummeted to their deaths or something. So it feels like Ubuntu would almost, I mean, maybe someone activates that, but that almost feels more passive. I think this is like, we are meant to believe that there was an active attack on this group of people. Whether that's because of control, like is Torben still in his...

mind state and that's part of why he's living in such a state of regret. Maybe it could be something like that, but it definitely seems like someone did something to those people. It wasn't just the fire. I'm going to skip past...

honestly as conversation with uh osha destiny pull the thread change everything yeah we we've already like talked to some of these uh about these concepts already may takes this like quick leap to murder and as we've already discussed we're like yeah a bit concerned that may despite the fact that her eyeballs are not all blacked out yeah it feels like she's being especially the look she gave the fire yeah she looks like she's under some sort of yeah there was definitely something like the way the camera lingered on her staring at the

and made you think, oh, is she under an influence of some sort? And then later, when we encounter her again at the bridge, she's sort of like walking slowly and groggily. Yeah, and she's like, she's dead! There's like no urgency of like...

holy shit, everything's up in flames. She just seems really out of it. Yeah, it just feels like we don't have all the information. Something else is happening. Other characters... Again, how was Sol there so quickly? Clearly because of the Torben injury that we glimpsed later. Everyone was there. Why were they there? Um...

And also just, like, before the staring at the flames trance, like, the discovery of the notebook, like, that Osha was drawing in earlier, and what do we see in there? We see the Jedi crest. And so there's a little bit of a question of, like, is that just meant to show us, to reinforce, yeah, I do want to be a Jedi. I do want to go live this life. This is what I want for myself. And I've been doodling in my notebook like kids do when they're thinking about, like, the thing they want. Is there some other, like, again, kind of, like, planting...

desires, ambitions, visions, dreams, aspirations, that they're being put on these paths by other characters. Here's my current best theory about what happened here. Okay.

Coral, as we know, is like pretty much team, let's just kill these Jedi. Uh-huh. Anisea seems pretty anti that idea. Yeah. But we should note that- Happy to take over her mind. Anisea is in a different spot. Yes. Than the rest of the company. Yes, her body is discovered separately as they're making their way through. Right. This is a light spoiler for like official material that

Lucasfilm has released like basically trailer material. So if people don't want to, if you don't want to hear that, yeah.

skip ahead. But there is footage from a trailer of, I don't think it's Torben, I think it's Kelnaka, seems to be like going ham with his lightsaber and both Saul and Torben, and it really seems to strike down on Torben. And it seems like that's how Torben got his, yeah, that's how Torben got his scar. So like, that if they take over the mind of Kelnaka, it reminds me a lot of like Loki manipulating the Hulk scene

in Avengers and unleash this Wookiee Jedi on his cohorts in the idea of like, oh, well then we won't be blamed for the death if they, you know, kill each other. But I like this idea. What if, again, wildly theorizing because of the power of one, the power of two, the power of many, maybe it took a whole group of them to take over the Wookiee. And in order to break that control,

Indara, probably Indara. Let's be real. Like...

to break that connection. Right. That's the flashbang that, you know, kills all these women at once. So you were harming our friend. You were harming and controlling our colleague and our pal. So we had to act to stop it. We thought we were doing the right thing. Right. And it went badly wrong. We thought we were doing the right thing just being there in the first place. So that was what I was going to ask. It's like, I like that for accounting for in the moment what is happening in this like kind of actively confounding situation.

fire sequence where it's like how does the fire spread this quickly is somebody manipulating and powering it how is it melting and crumbling stone this is where the fact that we have that like control room glitch earlier makes it seem like the facility is being like primed to collapse like why are they on Brendock in the first place is

Is it just because they're tracking Force-sensitives and they discovered them here and now they're here to recruit the kids? Yeah. Recruit the kids. But then again, this gets to the... We're going to talk about this with Ben, but this gets to the Torben-May interaction in Episode 2. There's simply no way to read it other than Torben knew she made it out alive. And so do they know that in the moment? I've been waiting for you, May. Is there a discovery later? Why? Here's a related question.

Why is Seoul, what is the hurry? Like, okay, he's rushing, excuse me, rushing OSHA out. I have another question about actually, let me ask this one first, then I'll get back to the why the rush. Very quickly, have to say it. Can't get through the pod without saying it.

The characters have to start using the Force. They have to. It's... Why can't Saul use the Force to save both kids? And, like, that moment where he does grab her by the wrist in parallel to him using the Force later, I would like to know why he can't use the Force in that moment. Because if there's an answer, which is, like, some sort of block or control, okay. It seems like there's an answer because when he does use the Force on her in episode one to save her from the cliff, it's very much like...

a sort of like, oh, I did it right this time. I was able to do it this time and I couldn't do it the time before. And so if it's like that, okay, it's part of the mystery and all will be revealed. Cool. If it's like, Indara just didn't stop the blade going toward her chest and Sol didn't catch both kids by using the force, that starts to feel like compromising at a certain point. So again, I'll reserve judgment until we know more, but it's on my mind. In terms of why the rush, there's the like, all right, Sol picking her up and hurrying her out of the complex. I get it.

It's collapsing all around them. Seems dangerous. That's not my question. He like rips her away from her mother. The haste with the farewell to your mother, like you'd think you'd have a moment, but you really think you're in mortal peril. Sure. I'll allow it. Why do they have to leave the planet so quickly? Yeah. They're already on the way to Coruscant. Something fucked up is going on there. Oh, yeah. Like, and how many of them know? Like, does Sol even know the reason they had to go? He's like, Osha's like, let's go back. Yeah. She goes full Jack Shepard. We have to go back.

And he's like, we can't. No, we can't. Why? What are they running from? I feel like I can connect the dots on so many things of what happened here. And to be clear, that mystery is all interesting to me. Yeah, I feel like I... But it does make this episode a little... No, I feel like I can slot all these things, except for Saul. He's actually the real question mark for me because, like, he's running to save May and Osha. So was he not...

when the flashbang happened. And then... And maybe he's like, I want to save both kids because that's what we're here to do is to guide and nurture these kids. And some of the other characters have this, like, no, what we need to do is split up a dangerous dyad. Right. We need to prevent the doctrine of the dyad. I want to save both of you. Right? Yeah. And they're like... And maybe they're like, actually, no. And they're like, no, we're just going to dump Mae by the bunta tree, actually. Here's...

He, like, Sol says that May started a fire and that it killed and then he's cut off. Yeah. Right? Significantly. It seems like he's telling the truth, right? Like, he...

He seemed very upset on her behalf. Yeah. Like, is he lying or did they just not loop-sol into the bigger picture or was it really all that, like, straightforward? It's more interesting to me, ultimately, if he is on a journey of discovery along with Osho the rest of the way here. If he also has to learn uncomfortable truths about the Jedi. I think he doesn't know everything that happened, right? Yeah. Which could then fuel that theory from the email a few minutes ago about...

a potential pull to the dark. Pull to the dark side. If his faith is shaken in the institution that he's devoted his life to. Here are things that Sol has said about this incident. Yeah. Indara and I saved her from a terrible fire in Bread Dock. She saw us as our protectors. I mean, certainly true of Sol. I was there when her sister started a fire that killed her entire family. That doesn't seem true. Osha was a Sol survivor.

That's not true, but did Sol know that? Right. I took her as my Padawan because he was like... Right away. You know? And then I wanted to save you both.

And then she says, what happened that night wasn't your fault, Saul. I've told you that. And he's like, you did. And I've made my peace with what happened on Brenda. Definitely not. I know you have. That was a lesson you tried to teach me many times, except what I'd lost. And I wasn't a very good student. Perhaps I wasn't a very good teacher. And then this is the last bit. Look what revenge has done to your sister. I couldn't save her when you were children. Let me try now.

So, yeah, he's like, let's take both. And I'm just going to blame this all on Indara. I like blaming it on Indara. Because Torben's like, ah, my face wound. Kamak is probably sedated because he's not even there. They probably have him just like, it locked up somewhere. And then Indara's like, here's what we're going to do. And I'm going to get a cosign from Vern. I really, I have my eye on Vern. That all sounds right to me. I think then the question becomes, who else is there?

Is involved. Yeah. Or is it just an attempt to thwart something by the Jedi? This, again, like kind of, we've been talking about this across many shows recently, like hubris of control idea gone wrong. And then a cover-up that leads to this like festering, corrosive guilt and shame for some. Noodles and ales. Noodles for others. Noodles and ale for others. Let's just make that our goal for the summer. Noodlesandale at gmail.com.

Anytime we're feeling crippled with guilt or shame or remorse or anything about the amount of work we have to do, I'll just look at you and I'll be like, noodles and beer. I love it. Noodles and beer for some. Okay. All right. Last thing I want to say, I mean, we get May, and again...

Looking for her sister in a way that does not feel like, I'll kill you. Like, consistent with that version of Mae. Yeah. So we get that. But I just want to shout out, if he turns out to know more about what happened and is lying to everyone, I'll be very disappointed in Saul. But the noise he makes when she reaches out to hug him and he says, you will never feel like this again, I promise. Heart-wrenching. Devastation. Heart-wrenching. How long was Mae on her own? When did...

Helmet face swoop in. Is that where we're going with helmet face? Good old... So many questions. I am excited. Good old silver tooth. Silver tooth, yeah. Venom mouth. Venom mouth. Uneven episode, but one that I leave...

full of intrigue. Yes, I want to know what happened. And with a ton of questions in an exciting way. Not one that necessarily means this was a perfectly structured or executed episode. But I am as enticed as I was heading into the season, honestly, to learn what awaits. So I can't wait for next week.

Can't wait for the back half of the season. We got five episodes left, and that doesn't sound like a lot, but at the pace at which the episodes have been moving, it feels like a good amount of time to give us some clarity here. I mean, some Star Wars shows are only six episodes, so if you think of it that way. From a certain point of view, we have a lot more to go. Let's go now to our chat with Ben Lindbergh. Ben! Ben! Ben!

Hello. Ben, welcome to a video podcast. I know. Now that we're on video, do you think I could get some sort of blue hologram filter for me when I join you for these segments? Only if you then like crop up on this table right here in the center of the table. I'd love that. Great idea. Guys, can we have that ready by next week? Shoot on the volume. Thanks. Yeah. Let's just get right on top of that. Thanks so much. Ben.

This is not a very lore-heavy episode. No. But you had an idea of what you might be able to talk about that connects to what went down on Brendock. What do you want to talk about today? Yeah, if you're not listening, or if you are listening, not watching, just picture me serenely sitting cross-legged in the air, floating a few feet above, because we're talking about the Barash Vow today. Your hair looks much better. Oh, thank you. Yeah.

The Brash Vow takes a toll on your hairline, as we saw with the progression. I know you're on wig watch, but we're going back to episode two here. This is when it was first mentioned in the show, the Brash Vow that Master Torben took, and he was meditating silently for 10 plus years. Just a passing mention, the first mention we've seen online.

on screen of the Brash Vow, but I thought it was worth going back to this this week because we've had some new developments with Master Torben or the future Master Torben who's still Padawan Torben. And I think maybe the lore behind the Brash Vow could clue us in perhaps to what's going on with these Jedi. What did they get up to when we weren't watching them?

So I will tell you a little bit about the Brash Vow, which dates back just several years in the canon. And it was created by the writer, prolific Star Wars author Charles Soule. And he actually posted about this on Instagram after the Acolyte episode because he was delighted to see his creation on screen. I will read you his definition from Instagram. Not sure Instagram is considered canon, but this more or less matches up with what you'll find elsewhere. Yeah.

And while they don't leave the order, they decide to sit and listen to the Force until they better understand themselves and what it's saying.

So the first time this was mentioned in canon comes from 2017, the Darth Vader comics run, which was written by Sol. And this is the Darth Vader comic that picks up right after Revenge of the Sith. So he's still settling into the Sith and the suit. And one of his first tasks given to him by Darth Sidious is to go get a kyber crystal.

so that he can make a red blade because he can't use his old one. So the way that he's supposed to do that is to track down a Jedi and get their lightsaber and then bleed the kyber crystal to turn it red. The only problem is they just killed most of the Jedi. So he's like, how am I going to find a Jedi to take a kyber crystal from them? And his solution is to look for a Jedi who was taking the Barash vow when Order 66 struck. Right.

So this is like your phone is on airplane mode or something basically. And then you land and you get a bunch of notifications. And in this case, the notification's like, oh, all my friends are dead. So

So that sucks. Tough one. But the reason he wanted to look for someone who had taken the Barash bow is he's like, well, I'll take them by surprise because they don't know everyone's dead. They've been out of the loop. And so he goes to this droid that has a backup, a record of where all the Jedi were before Order 66. Yeah.

And Vader says, hey, send me a list. Any Jedi pursuing Barash has sworn to refrain from activities related to the Order. Complete disengagement from anything but the Force. It is a type of penance. While a Barash taker would have felt the purge, they would not have allowed themselves to respond to it or take action of any kind.

So it's like a thousand voices cried out and you're like, eh. And I just continue to sit there. Went about my day. Yeah. And the droid tells him that you're going to have to narrow it down a bit because there have been 14,000 Jedi who have taken the Barash vow in the Archives of the Order. This is something that is not in the canon, but...

Charles Sorrell clarified on Instagram again, which is this is named after a Jedi named Barash Sylvain. But apparently people had been doing the Barash vow for many years before that, and it just got named after her. So this goes way back, and it also continued after Barash Sylvain. So he shows up, Vader, and he finds this Jedi who's been hanging out, taking the Barash vow and fights him and kills him and

gets the Kyber crystal mission accomplished, et cetera. So that's the first time that this shows up in canon. The Jedi's name is Kirak Infila. Then it shows up in the High Republic a few years later in another comic written by Charles Soule. And some people have asked me since the Acolyte started, where do I start with the Acolyte? Like, how do I get into this? Where should I start?

And much like Obi-Wan says, the Jundland waster not to be traveled lightly, the High Republic also not to be traveled lightly either, as I discovered when I was prepping for the accolade and realized just how much time it would take. You need to basically barash vow to catch up with the High Republic. So you got to have a lot of time on your hands to read this.

But if you just want to dabble, if you want to dip in with something where you don't need to know what else is going on, there's a great four-part miniseries called The Blade written by Sould that ended last year. And this comic gives us the origin of the Brash Vow and tells us about this Jedi named Porter Engle and Exorcist.

another Jedi, Barash Sylvain, and what led to Barash taking this vow. This is hundreds of years even before the Acolyte.

And so they went to a planet far from everything else, out of contact at the distant reaches of the Republic and their Jedi. They're trying to settle a dispute. And Barash's great attribute as a Jedi was that she could listen to the force and know what to do and know who was lying and who was telling the truth. But in this particular case, she allowed her own personal sympathies and biases to sway her further.

from hearing the message of the Force. So she's settling this dispute, and she sympathized with this monarch who told this story about a young family in trouble and a child in danger of being taken from her parents, and that's the origin story of Barash. And so she said, yeah, this sounds right, and she wasn't really listening to the Force. And Barash

Because of that, she made a mistake. She vouched for this fake story. She tells Porter Engel to engage, and there's this big battle, and a lot of people die, and she feels very bad about it. So after the battle, she says, this is my fault. I told you to escalate, to confront the mercenaries directly. I did that because I believed what Princess Socotra told me.

a story about a young family in trouble, a child in danger of being taken from her parents. I did not listen to the Force. I listened to myself. My own history clouded my vision. I was certain and I was wrong. And now so many are dead. And so she says, I cannot trust myself. I cannot allow you or any other Jedi to trust me. Not until I know I am hearing the Force clearly again.

So she's not leaving the order. She's just disengaging. And Porter goes back to the council and tells them about this. And Yoda characterizes it as she's uncertain. She's lost her feel for the force, essentially. So that is usually what causes the barash vow. It's not just a minor mistake. It's not just, oops, I screwed up. Maybe I'll meditate and say some force our fathers to make up for this and do some penance.

This is a serious mistake that calls into question everything you know about the Force and your connection to the Force.

There's really only a handful of examples that we know. There's one other where a Jedi was essentially cut off from the Force because of contact with the Drangir, this species of carnivorous plants also in the High Republic. And so to get back in touch with the Force, he had to do the Barash Vow for a while. So it's sort of extreme circumstances. One of the only other Jedi we know who took the Barash Vow, our boy, Ophiuchus.

Obi-Wan Kenobi on Tatooine. There's a brief mentioned in a book from a few years ago about the Skywalkers, Skywalker, a family at war that refers to him as a practitioner of the brash vow on Tatooine. So clearly cutting up sand whales doesn't break the vow. You don't actually have to be silent and motionless and floating in the air. What about taking a side quest adventure with a young Princess Leia? Yeah.

Yeah, that seems to me like that might be verging on breaking the vow. So it's not clear from the mention when exactly he took the vow, whether he could take a hiatus from the vow. Maybe it was after that little side quest. But at some point, Obi-Wan took the vow too. And that's the kind of circumstance that would lead you to do this because we know he's scarred.

Not literally, I guess. Anakin is quite scarred by that experience, but he's scarred emotionally, certainly, by what went wrong with his Padawan, his friend, his brother. And so he disconnected for a while. He just unplugged, basically, from the Force. And so that's what Torben's doing here. Yeah. Would you say...

Breaking into a sacred ritual that a bunch of women are doing. To steal a child? Trying to lure away their children and then later killing all of them. Is that, does that qualify for the barashma? Maybe? I would say so. Yeah. You know, that might satisfy the criteria. We just wiped out a whole coven.

Yeah. Yeah. I mean, merely slicing the platform and interrupting the ceremony, that might not be Barash worthy, you know? And so there's clearly something else that's happening here. Pairing that perm with the Padawan braid. Like, is that, does that qualify you for the Barash? It's a bold look. It's quite a look. Yeah. Quite a look. It is. It is.

Yeah, so because we know that Torben did not have his wound at the start of episode three, and then we see him blurry out of focus in the background, and he has been wounded, he has been slashed, perhaps blinded in that eye, something happened here while we were unaware, while we were just seeing events from Osha's perspective. And so I think maybe the history, the precedent here for the Brash Vow was

Kind of clues us into what might have happened here, because if we look at that canonical example that it's named after, the Brash Sylvain example, this is a case where she let her sympathies, her preconceptions sway her and blind her, not literally, but figuratively speaking, to the truth of the situation.

And so that could be happening with the Jedi here with Torben. Obviously, it seems like they have some suspicions about the dark side usage that's going on here. They have perhaps prejudged the coven and they may be apt to leap to conclusions about what they are training these children to do, what exactly this coven of witches practices is.

And maybe that puts them on edge, right? Maybe that makes them do something that, in retrospect, they should not have done. And, you know, in fairness to Torben, he did get his mind briefly taken over, which maybe would not predispose you to— Yeah, I was going to ask if there was any fine print on, like, what if somebody else took over your mind right before you did the thing that made you question your ability to parse the truth. Mitigating circumstance, for sure. Yeah.

I want to ask you one more follow-up. So we've already been doing some speculation on this podcast about what we think might have happened. But in terms of the conspiracy and the cover-up of all of this...

Because when May goes to, you know, offer him absolution, which is what we're calling it. And he not only says, forgive me, we thought we were doing the right thing. He also said, I've been waiting for you, May. Yeah. So what's your thought on like, what did Torben... Because I'm inclined, but then again, I'm...

in his favor to believe that Saul genuinely thinks that May did not survive all of that. But do you think Torben and I mean, probably Andara, let's be real, knows that May survived? Yeah.

would seem that way, right? He's not surprised to see her. And clearly the vow is not really working so well for him. Like it doesn't seem like he's made a lot of progress in his self-therapizing over the past decade here because he's pretty quick to take that poison. So for him, you know, for some of these Jedi, it's about kind of working your way back to the Force and regaining your good judgment. For him, it seems like it might just be about shutting down that he's decided that

He's not going to find his way back. Whatever he did was unforgivable. And if anything, he's just kind of taking himself out of circulation until May arrives to take her vengeance or offer him penance, however we want to phrase this. But, you know, it could be that there was manipulation going on here, that there's another party, that the Sith, maybe those mysterious cloaked figures at the Ascension ceremony, that

Maybe they prodded the Jedi into doing something here. Maybe it was Mother Coral, whose whereabouts are still unknown, but clearly resented the intrusion.

Maybe someone was goading the Jedi into something that they were predisposed to do, again, because they're coming into this not just reacting and listening and feeling, but thinking that they know best, right? That they are aware of what's happening here, even though they claim that they thought the planet was uninhabited, which seems dubious. What were you doing there, if that was the case? Crazy.

Taking the scenic routes. That's a real tell a better lie moment to me. What about the Jedi do not take children? What about that one? Thank you, Ben. That was an incredible lore download. I really appreciate it. Wonderful as always.

Thanks. And it's nice that there's a little bit of High Republic linkage here, because even though this is technically set in the High Republic era, just right at the tail end of it, there's not really a lot that links back to the earlier High Republic material, if you have taken the Brashbow and dive deep into all the material that's out there. So this is a nice little nod, a little reward for those who did the reading. Your homework matters, Ben. My homework paid off. It did. Thrilling. Thank you.

Thank you. Let's go very, let's just dip a toe into theory corner. Okay. This is the way. This is the way. This whole thing was kind of theory corner. Yeah. But I just want to mention something. Actor David Harewood, who I love. Estes from Homeland. Sure. Fake Barack Obama on Doctor Who. Whatever you prefer. Wonderful British actor. Yeah.

There was a casting announcement that he joined the cast at, like, kind of late in the game. Not, like, a really official one, but, like, a very sort of, like, well-sourced one. Dispersed in the show. Yeah. Okay. So, like, what would David Harewood be doing? I do not think he is... What did you say? Venom mouth? I think we feel pretty confident we know who that is. But, like, what that introduces to me here in Theory Corner, where all theories are welcome, is this idea that, like, is...

venom mouth the stranger yeah is he the apprentice and hairwood's the master whether it's hairwood or anyone else i do that feels most likely to me that if our yeah if our chimer theory is right yeah that's let me just say one more thing

It's a flashback episode, so it makes sense that he's not in it. You missed Manny. I missed Manny. Yeah, me too. I did. We got the taste of what Manny injected into the show, and then to be deprived of that in the next episode, I actually really felt his absence. So again, we had a lot of wonderful performances. Let's never do that again, Akhilay. Good night. I do... It feels likely to me that Chimera will be revealed as Venomouth again.

And he will be revealed as the apprentice of a Sith Lord. Whether that casting rumor is false or whatever, I was just sort of like, ooh, that's another player on the board that I hadn't considered. Okay. Wig watch? Last but certainly not least. Certainly not. Wig watch. Do you wear wigs? Oh, man. I just need you in this moment with me, Valerie Rubin, to, I would like you to shout out your favorite flashback wig.

I think that Sol's hair looked the best, but I got the biggest kick out of Torben's. Torben's. Yeah, I got the biggest kick out of Torben's wig, which, like, we had seen this wig in the trailers because there's the shot of him, like, in the trance. But the, but what you couldn't really tell in the trailer. I'm sorry, can you just, yeah, thank you. This is a video podcast now, so I just needed to, yeah, okay, thank you. What you couldn't really tell in the trailer, or at least what didn't

I'm sure it was visible, but it didn't kind of catch my eye as much in real time. It was like the Padawan braid. Yeah, the braid. The braid plus the curls. It was a lot of look. The Padawan braid and like the perm. Wonderful stuff. Delightful. On the plus side, Jodi Turner-Smith's hair looked... Everything. Beautiful. Resplendent. Iconic. All right. That has been Wig Watch TM with Molly Rubin and Joanna Robinson and Flashback Bangs TM.

This podcast is made not just by the power of one, the power of two, by the power of many. All right. So, of course, we have to thank. Great stuff. That got me.

Oh, man. Steve Allman for his long-distance cause that we heard here in the studio. Wonderful stuff. Thank you, Steve. And everything else that you do. Arjuna Ramgopal. Always. For everything that he has done for me here today and for you and for everyone listening at home. Jomie and Dinner on on the social.

Wonderful stuff always from Jomie. Always. Thank you to Benjamin Lindbergh for joining us for the lore segment. Yeah. Thank you to John Richter, our new name. John, welcome to the team. On the cast list. Thank you. The power of many. Welcome to the house of our John Richter. You will be able to listen to us. For John, what a first experience with our show. Like a 97-hour in-studio recording where we were both locked out of the studio mid-recording separately.

each other. It only took us an hour to figure out that we didn't want to have any headphones on. Great stuff. Wonderful time. Love this. Smooth sailing. Next time that Mallory, when is the next time that people can both hear and watch us? Sunday night. The minute. Dare I say the second. The very second. The instant that the House of the Dragon season two premiere concludes. Head to

Spotify, the Ringerverse YouTube channel, wherever you get your podcasts, because we will be there with Chris Ryan for Talk the Thrones Sunday night. Pals, there's a whole set. It's a whole thing. It's a whole production. There are candles. Goblets. Yeah, there are goblets. Yeah, there are goblets. There's a whole, it's a whole thing. So please tune in for Talk the Thrones. We'll see you then.