'The Acolyte' Episode 8 Deep Dive
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I'm Derek Thompson, the host of The Ringer podcast, Plain English. Look, a lot of news these days is kind of nonsense. I'm not trying to reinvent the wheel here. I'm just trying to ask the questions that matter from people who know more than I do about everything I'm curious about. And that's most things. Recession fears, AI hyperbole, psychology, productivity, China, war, streaming, movies, sports, you name it.

The world without jargon. The news without bias. Plain English with Derek Thompson. Subscribe wherever you get your podcasts. This season on Naughty Yotta Island. When we were new, they spoiled me. They even gave me a phone. But then, it's like I didn't exist.

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Just bring your number and ID and sign up for an eligible plan. After 12 months, trade in and get our best deals on select devices. This episode is brought to you by The Home Depot. It's that time of year, so spread more joy with The Home Depot's giant holiday decor. Go big this holiday season with larger-than-life decor that really hits home. Be like my wife. She'll just go to Home Depot to see what they got cooking. She's always ready to plan for the holidays. Maybe that's a tree.

You can put together in a few clicks like the Grand Duchess. That sounds great. Or a huge eight foot towering Santa with poseable arms that a flame effect lantern that might be in front of my house or an eight and a half foot towering reindeer with illuminated flashing bells. That's the holiday spirit at the Home Depot. Shop in store online now at homedepot.com. He tried to teach me to accept that someone that I love could be capable of this level of destruction. And I failed.

I could never learn to calm my negative emotions. My hatred of you, my grief over our mother. So I never became a Jedi. And I guess in the end you got what you wanted. Sol killed our mother. I saw it with my own eyes. He's lied to you every day since you left our home. How could he teach you to control your negative emotions? He's the reason you have them. You didn't fail. He did.

Welcome back to House of R. Turns out daddy issues aren't just for male creators anymore. Welcome to Star Wars, Leslie Hedlund. I'm Joanna Robinson. Joining me today, she's the love of my life. I would bleed a criber for her. I would creepily stare around the corner of a cave at her if I could. I would bring Yoda to have a meeting with her if I could. It's Mallory Rubin.

Hey, Mal. Joanna, this is our first remote recording in more than a month. We've been together for everything. And I just wish that I could reach through the Zoom and wrap my hand around yours.

around our recently bled saber as we look out towards the sun. Would you graze my thumb with your thumb? Because... Gently? That would be great. Okay, cool. And enticingly. Wonderful. We are here to talk about The Acolyte, episode eight, the finale. We are deep diving into the finale. We are here at the end of season one. Will there be more seasons? We don't know yet. We'll talk about that sort of a little bit at the end of the pod. First, some quick programming reminders. There's a lot going on. Um,

Um, so listen, um,

All the usual stuff is happening. The Midnight Boys are going to do an instant reaction to The Boys. We've got our House of the Dragon coverage that you are well aware of. Talk the Thrones. The Midnight Boys are covering it. We're covering it, etc. We did a live show last night, which is partially why we're recording remotely today. And you'll be able to hear that on the feed next week, which is exciting. Allegedly, if all goes according to plan, Van and I are doing a debate about The Last Jedi next week. I don't know, because...

we love to tempt fate and our friendship. We'll have our various Deadpool and Wolverine coverage. And speaking of that, we want to take a second to promote Daniel Chin's Deadpool and Wolverine sort of deep dive into the history of Deadpool, X-Men on film,

Marvel, the state of Marvel, all of that. He's got great interviews and that's coming, that's dropping on the ringer risk feed on Friday. Um, and he interviewed a ton of people, including, uh, yours truly. And also, uh, just a bunch of people involved in the film and at Marvel, et cetera, et cetera. So it's going to be really, if you're a huge fan of Marvel, uh, if you're curious what's going on, if you're, should I get excited about Deadpool and Wolverine? How did this even happen? Um,

He did months of research and work on this project. I'm really excited. It's an awesome narrative feature. Check it out. You can find it on the pod feed. You can find it on TheRinger.com. What a great website. Great. Anywhere, everywhere. Wonderful.

That's a lot that we're doing. Just a super chill, quiet summer we're all having. But you know what? We're honestly having the time of our lives. What a bounty. What a bounty. And so if you're listening and you're like, how can I follow along? Great. As the bounty grows and swells and seemingly never slows, we would recommend that you follow the pods.

Follow the House of Arn, follow the Ringerverse on Spotify or wherever you get your podcasts. Follow the new Ringerverse YouTube channel. Hit that subscribe button. This is a rare episode, really the rarest of rare recently, that is not a video episode because of various scheduling and logistical constraints this week. We'll be back on video for Talk of Thrones, obviously, and our hot deep, deep dive next week. But in general...

House of R, Talk of Thrones, Midnight Boys, full pods up on the Ringiverse YouTube and available to watch on Spotify in perpetuity. Thrilling stuff. And you can listen on Spotify or wherever you get your podcasts while you're at it. Follow the Ringiverse on the social media platform of your choosing. You can get little breakouts.

Little video clips from the pods. You can see clips from the live show that Joe was just talking about. You can see photos of Jomie holding the Stanley Cup posted in honor of his birthday. We got to watch Jomie's family surprise him at the live show last night and say happy birthday to him. It was incredibly sweet and memorable. So check out the socials. And of course, send us your emails. Hobbitsanddragons at gmail.com.

The house of our inbox is open and piping hot. Oh, it's, it's, uh, the joint is jumping. Let me just say. And like, also we should say as we close the door on the acolyte, it just means we're that much closer to actual hobbits by hobbits. I mean, Harfoots, but the rings of power is coming. We're very excited. Um, so listen, spoiler warning.

Anything that ever happened in Star Wars. That's it. That's all I'm going to say. Just get it. Everything that's ever happened in Star Wars. Nothing more to spoil for the acolyte because here we are at the end of all things. This episode is called The Acolyte. It is the titular role. It was written by Jason Mikaleff, I believe is how you pronounce, and directed by Hanelle Culpepper. She directed a previous episode as well as a bunch of other television that you know and love.

Before we get into the deep dive, Mallory Rubin, would you join me in an opening snapshot? Mallory Rubin. Joanna Robinson. What'd you think? Give me a little, a little taste of this episode and then maybe how you're feeling about the season as a whole. Just a little. Oh yeah. Mixed positive on the finale. Mm.

positive on the series and like I think that the reasons are similar for the feeling on the finale and the feeling on the series I I'm not going to list everything that I liked and disliked about the finale because we'll talk about it as we go but broadly it's in line with a lot of what we've been discussing to this point you know our time with Chimera our time with Soul

Our time with Osha and the stranger grasping hands, looking out into the future. Thrilling. Yeah. A glimpse of Darth Plagueis. Sign me up. I'm elated, genuinely excited and hyped. This combat is crazy.

inventive and exhilarating inside of Star Wars. It just continues to be this jolt of electric possibility that I think we thought the series more broadly would provide. All of that is awesome. I left the finale really hoping the show would get greenlit for a second season. Because there's a lot that I'm invested in and want to see. And so I think my experience with the finale was my experience with the season. Like,

When I'm watching it in real time, there are so many moments often involving OSHA and May scenes or like Jedi Council scenes, Vern scenes. Though I will say I actually quite liked the Senator Rancourt scene. Oh, me too. I was really excited about that. So that was a positive update to what was happening on Coruscant.

My mind is often racing in real time. Why would a character behave this way? Why is this the exact nature of the dialogue or the calibration of the performance? And then I get to the end of the episode and I want to know what happens next. And I'm pretty entertained when I'm watching it. Like it's this fascinating duality at play. A lot of the May and Osha stuff in the episode just did not work for me. Like they're stuffed together. I found the scene under the boot to seem so confounding. I like can barely believe it made the final cut.

I have some other questions and thoughts, including about Yoda appearing at the very end.

And, you know, overall, that larger question of how separate and distinct this is versus how linked it is, I think we know now definitively, like, unquestionably, that we're blazing the path directly to Anakin. And, like, in some ways, and to Palpatine. And in some ways, that's interesting and exciting. And in some ways, it, I think, violates the core pitch of the show in a way that I'm, like, a little confused by still. I would like to go back and see how much, how much did they actually promise Anakin

this would be like standalone, distinct, unconnected. I don't remember that language necessarily, but like. I think it's less even necessarily. And in some ways, I think this is actually more of an indictment, what I'm about to say. I think it's less actually about what specific show Leslie wanted to make with the acolyte. Leslie's a fan of legends, a fan of a character like Plagueis, wanting to explore all that. It actually makes complete sense to me. Yeah. Yeah.

finally going into a new period of the timeline. Yes. And still making it all about how we got to Palpatine and Anakin is such a narrow, confining...

for what our Star Wars stories can be. That is, I feel that way genuinely. That doesn't mean I'm not interested in it though. And that's like, I carry both of those truths inside of me at once as a Star Wars fan, I think. Conflict inside the human heart. Conflict in the human heart. Yeah. What did you think? I would say, I mean, you and I, we talked about this spoiler. We talked about this a little bit backstage at the live show last night. So we are pretty closely aligned in that like, there's so much that didn't work for us, both in the season and in the finale. Um,

I think fundamentally the major flaw of the show is that it is failed. May as a character entirely. This is just not a character. I understand. And it's, I mean, we've, uh, we've wiped the slate clean for season two. So maybe like season two, may, uh, amnesia may will be my favorite. Who knows? But like as a character whose wants and needs and desires, I understand, um,

I am confounded constantly by what they're doing with May. Osha makes more sense to me. The Osha and Chimera stuff really works for me, obviously. We talked about that at length. Sol continues to work for me. I'm just going to – I would just repeat everything you said. You and I largely agree. I guess the one thing I would push back on is like – I don't want to say –

The premise or the promise of the show was something unconnected, but it was the potential of the show. Yeah. That's a better way of putting it. Yeah. It's what we were just like, oh my God. When we're in a new area. Yeah. We're just going to do something else entirely. How exciting. And it's like, no, actually we're taking the long road to Anakin. And what this all feels like, I mean, especially like Mae and Osha have like sort of switched places. We're kind of back where we started a little bit at the end of this.

So what this all feels like at the end of the day to me a bit is like prologue. This feels like prologue for something very exciting in the future. And I don't feel like it's time wasted, but it does give that sense of like, oh, okay, now maybe the real story begins. Yes, but also then that real story, which hopefully will be

entertaining and compelling to watch is also going to be prologue for how Anakin was created. Well, it's by manipulating the force. It's prequel. It's prequel for that. Yeah. Um,

Um, prequels to the prequels who knew that I would want it, but I am hyped about, about Plague. So I have to like, kind of own my own contradictions here because there's a part of me that's like, why? Like just do something totally different. And then a part of me, this is just actually genuinely interested in seeing that. So I don't know. It's a, it's a, you know, Star Wars. It's a, it's a tough one. I, I kind of always want more of the thing I know I like, and I do like fleshing out, um,

the space around the thing and especially the thing that is most central. I was really excited to, to play an entirely different and separate sandbox. And maybe some of those, we would understand how like a pail in that sandbox came from another sandbox, but the sand, the grains of sand were different and the people in the sandbox were different. Same old sand. And it turns out it's just really one big sandbox. And that's, I guess, okay. It's the same old sand, but here's what I will say. The, the,

And Anakin hates sand. I don't know if you know this, but he fucking hates sand. The true promise. It's coarse and it's irritating. The true promise of this show was a Sith point of view in which it. Yeah.

largely failed. However, I do feel like that is exactly where I am for season two. We end this episode and Vern, who's like, you gotta help me find my former pupil, we're like, boo his, right? Boo his, not just to burn the character, but like to the Jedi. And we watch our heroine

hero-coded Sith couple stand as like as if we're at the end of Rogue One watching like, you know, a sunrise, sunset and we're like, I hope those two crazy kids work it out. That's, they have put us firmly in the Sith point of view, which it took eight episodes to get there, but that is where we will start if we get a second season, which I genuinely hope we do. I really do. And that's, I feel the same way and that's part of why I left it despite the

feeling like it was an uneven experience, like hopeful that they will get a chance to keep making the show and to spend more time in that particular vantage point. The thing I loved most about that shot, I was about to say final shot. Lamentably, it was not actually the final shot. It might not be the final shot.

I'm just living for this brand new world where Mallory joins me on the, I don't want that legacy character. No, that's not, that's actually not how I feel about it. I feel like this is really different from the ones that work well. And that that's actually why I dislike it, which we will, we could talk about later or now, whatever you prefer. But the thing I love, the rogue one, the, the Cassian gin call it that you just made is obviously like a perfect one. And it invokes that I think quite intentionally. Yeah. What I love about that is that the other thing that was, I,

I think impossible not to think about with that visual is Luke looking up at the binary suns. And so like... Or Luke at the end of his life. Like anytime a character's looking at a sunrise or a sunset in Star Wars, it is heavily coded. But that particular...

blend of like because that moment in Rogue One it's so satisfying we're so proud we've managed to experience this really sad but it's devastating it's like doom doom has claimed you and so there's a tragedy that is unmistakable and a creep of tragedy that is unmistakable yeah

Yeah. Should we just do this whole pod from the opera? I would love that actually. But then you also have this like image, this association with an image of hope and possibility and that kind of note, being able to ping both of those things. And I think equal measure for us with a visual like that is like impressive and exciting and cool. So that's what I'm like looking forward to more of in the future. Visually stunning, more, uh, more excellent use of the like real world locations. Great, uh,

orchestral cue like the score was really really working there for me that combination of like swooning swelling heroics and ominous is that all that was swooning and swelling well well this season on naughty island when we were new they spoiled me they even gave me a phone but then it's like i didn't exist

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Let's get into it. Let's just do the deep dive, shall we? Dateline, unknown planet, inside a helmet o'clock. Here we are. It's Osha, right where we left her, inside the Cortosa's helmet, having a panic attack.

is what it seems like. And also, do you think it's because she saw like when she was just, just her in the forest that the helmet wasn't available until 2025 and instantly sold out? Do you think that was what sparked that reaction? I know. I think she had a vision of you tracking her down so you could rip the helmet. What do I have to do to get that fucking helmet? Enraged.

Okay. I completely misinterpreted this, what happens next. And thankfully one of our listeners set me right, as I'm sure you would have. But like, Chimera reaches out to her. And for some reason, I thought Chimera was in control of this. But one of our listeners, Kayla, was like, didn't it seem like Osha was using her mother's witchcraft? And I'm sure-

you Mal would have been like, duh, Joanna, this is what's happening. But like, Osha is using her mother's witchy powers to put Chimere in the same, you know, in the upside down, the same way Anisea put Torben in the upside down, like where the cave is, we're flashing between the cave and the blue space where Torben was. I thought this was something Torben was doing using witch power, but of course it makes a million times more sense because he's the one who's like frozen and struggling to move to get the helmet off her head. But, uh,

OSHA is having a sort of like flair. It doesn't seem intentional. A flair of magic that has put him in an Anisea flavored, you know, controlled space. Fascinating potential for this. Yeah. This was, I thought,

Let's generously, charitably say in an, I think, intentional way, like meant to almost confuse us a little bit. You're like, oh, wait, whoa, what is happening? And yeah, I think that OSHA, you know, you could go to Theory Corner here and say, oh, did some sort of like upload to the cloud actually happen? Right? Right. Exactly. Is everyone, are all of the members of the Coven Coral accepted and approved?

I have a question coming in the talk about coral. I'm like, my heart stopped when I read it. I'm genuinely like trying to repress my memory of coral. But is she, is that power manifesting? Because actually there is a power inside of her that has been ported into her that she actually doesn't quite know is there or understand. Right, exactly. Or absent any actual like transference on the night of the Ascension and the moment of Anisea's saber death in the smoke monster state. Right.

Is this just Osha manifesting the power that was always going to be a part of her because she is a creation of... A virgins clone? Virgins. This force energy, this extremely powerful being, a member of this witch coven who has additional then power and a connection to the thread beyond whatever Jedi or Sith training would be a part of her experience? Exactly.

Later, at one point in the doc here, I call her like a juicy little morsel for Plagueis to feed on. And like, there's something about her and even more so than May, which is perhaps why Sol latched onto her in the first place. Uh,

but Kymer says something later that sort of like implies that she's more powerful than May or at least has tapped into something that May hasn't. So this idea of like the witchy power that is outside of the Sith understanding, outside of the force Jedi understanding makes her a danger to the Jedi, which is what Kymer says later, right? They, they won't let you live. They didn't let your mother live. They won't let you live. And that actually feels true. But it is also something that like,

he can help her train or she can teach him one way or the other. There is, there was this moment at the end because you know, the, the title is acolyte. He says he wanted a pupil. We're going to manage, give an interview to the New York times. I thought it was really interesting about like sort of,

why it was that Chimera would be sort of thirsting for something like that outside of the Sith sort of rule of two. But standing there at the end, they looked more like equals and partners than they looked like master and apprentice to me. And so I kind of like the idea potentially in a season two that we may or may not ever get of them teaching each other things, right? She needs to learn to control certain things, right?

Or, you know, some sithy ways of the world. But he doesn't know how to send people to the upside down. And isn't that something he would love to learn how to do? You know? So, like... Yeah. What did you make sort of related to that? Like, what did you make of his face during Sol's...

You're not twins. You're the same person reveal. Like, did you read that as, oh shit, other people know this too. I'm not the only one who knows about this amazing potential. Or did you read that as, wait, what? Like, I didn't know that. And this is even more intriguing, but also potentially like... It read as, wait, what? Alarming and hard to control. It read as, wait, what, to me? Yeah, same. But also...

let's zip ahead. We're going to wrap up our time on this planet and say, let's just hop ahead to Darth Plagueis. Because I actually think, I think Darth Plagueis knows exactly what she is. Or can sense at least some part of this. Okay, so they make this

uneasy alliance. She knows where they're going. He's got the ship. They're going to go together. Um, and then he makes one more bid to her, but it's not the last time actually. Uh, but he's like last chance, you know, do you, would you ever consider, do you want to join me? A few things here.

I think they look amazing and they're matching dark side fits. I think they look incredible. I think the ocean side location looks incredible as always. Again, we'll come back here for the sunset. You hate a crevice, especially if a Sith Lord is hiding in one. I hate when characters say last chance and it is not in fact the last chance. That bothers me. Why did he say it? No need. And then this feels very much of a piece with that last Jedi scene with Kylo and Rey that Leslie likes to cite the like

When he says, you have no place in the story. You come from nothing. You're nothing. Fun. But not to me. Join me, please. Like, this join me. A number of times, Kymer will reach out his hand to Osha literally in this episode. And both Kylo and Kymer love to guess, like, gatekeep girl boss. There's, like, this.

There's this genuine plea and offer for companionship that comes wrapped in with, in the case of that Kylo and Rey scene, a nagging. You're nothing. Yes. But not to me. And here, you know...

obviously Chimera is constantly manipulating her. She says, I told you I'm not my sister at the end of this exchange. He says, you're definitely not. May made that deal without even thinking about it, which is both true, but also as we discussed in the sort of breakdown of his earlier seduction of her, exactly what she wants to hear. You're not your sister. Yep. Here's my note for Star Wars. Great.

fictional universe I love. Yeah. One of my three, literally three favorites. Yes. Period. Yes. One day it would be great if the person on the receiving end of a you're nothing speech actually was. One day. Oh yeah. It would be great. I can't wait for that. But not this virgin's clone. Not a part of the Palpatine line or pure force. One day. Oh, Broom Boy, we await your trilogy. Okay.

Love Broom Boy. Fucking loved Broom Boy. Me too. Stay tuned for my debate with Van about The Last Jedi. Okay. I have a question for you, Mallory. Did you ever hear the tragedy of Darth Plagueis the Wise? Have you heard? You know, it's shared not only here in mere seconds on this podcast, but in one of my favorite movies of all time.

Baffling. Cool story. All right. So this is Darth Plagueis. The shadowy figure in the cave is Darth Plagueis, as confirmed by Leslie Hedlund to IndieWire. Let's go. As if we had any doubts, but she's like, yeah, don't worry. We're not playing coy. This is what she said to IndieWire about his appearance here before.

And I love that this scene takes place with them standing in the exact same place they are at the end of the episode, so it was really easy for her to move these scenes around. Originally, this Darth Plagueis sneaks and snoops his way around the corner of the cave, came right at the end where they're having their Rogue One moment, right? She says to IndieWire, there was a version where he was the button of the finale instead of Yoda. Yeah.

Honestly preferable. But having the sinister figure be the last thing we felt was never quite right. She says, quote, you want to feel Osha's triumph. You want to feel her joining forces with the stranger. Plagueis stepped on that moment. So they put it here. She put it here instead where we're just sort of like, oh, well, Darth Plagueis is here. Malor wanted him here. Here he is. Who is Darth Plagueis? We've been referencing him a bit all season, but for the uninitiated, let's just hear it from Palpatine himself. Steve, will you play this clip?

Did you ever hear the tragedy of Darth Plagueis the Wise? No. I thought not. It's not a story the Jedi would tell you. It's a Sith legend. Darth Plagueis was a dark lord of the Sith, so powerful and so wise, he could use the Force to influence the midi-chlorians to create. He had such a knowledge of the dark side,

He could even keep the ones he cared about from dying. He could actually save people from death. The dark side of the Force is a pathway to many abilities some consider to be unnatural. What happened to him? He became so powerful, the only thing he was afraid of was losing his power. Which eventually, of course, he did. Unfortunately,

He taught his apprentice everything he knew. Then his apprentice killed him in his sleep. Ironic. He could save others from death, but not himself. Is it possible to learn this power? Not from a Jedi. Ian McDiarmid, the legend you are. The legend you are. Unbelievable. Molly Rubin, Darth Plagueis was killed by his apprentice. Who was that apprentice?

Fucking sheave, man. Palpy himself. It's not all lakeside Naboo action for Palpy. What do we think someone like Plagueis is going to do with a tasty little virgin's morsel like Osha? You know, last pod, last week, you felt compelled multiple times to note that you were saying virgins, not virgins, and yet didn't in the sentence tasty little virgin's morsel. Yeah.

Interesting. Interesting. Interesting time to assume people will just know what word we're saying there. So this is, this is a delight. Plagueis being here is, this is a figure.

who Star Wars fans, legends, readers, Revenge of the Sith viewers, right? A name, depending on how much time you're spending reading 2012 novels or anything else, your familiarity may vary, right? Yeah. But the name has hung over the Sith canon in a way that is just ripe and full of possibility for further exploration in the Disney canon era. So this is cool. This is exciting. The...

Putting him here and having him loiter and creepily peek around the edge of the rock to watch them. Real Saul on breadnock energy. Yes, swap the tree bark for the stony crevasse. What I love about that is it leaves us free to speculate about...

Couple things. What you're asking, but also just more broadly, what is his connection to the stranger? We can consider a few different possibilities. Maybe he is the stranger's master. That's one possibility. Certainly. Right. A character who is pursuing immortality and around in the canon for a vast swath of time will have more than one apprentice. So that would be cool.

Plus we know that Chimera is older than he looks. Right. Exactly. Long time ago. When Vern says you're alive at the end, the question might not just be like, I thought I killed you, but also shouldn't you be dead? Right. From just your natural lifespan. Much older than you. Yeah. Yeah. So, okay. Is he Plagueis' apprentice? And if so, why?

Does he know that his apprentice is seeking a pupil of his own? Does he not? Is this a discovery? Now this is Plagueis' home base. If it is in fact Valdemnik, as we are speculating and seems likely based on a lot of evidence. And that would be the planet where not only we have the cortosis veins, but where Plagueis killed his own master. So, um,

And correct me if I'm wrong on the timeline, as you are the timeline expert, that hasn't happened yet. Right. Though I, I think that because that's legends timeline, they reserve the right to like amend that probably, but that's right. So, um,

Okay, that's one kind of like broad bucket of possibility. The other is maybe the stranger's not his apprentice and he's competition. That's, I think, in play, completely in play. And the nature of the spying, again, the spying could be you're my apprentice and I didn't know you were taking on your own acolyte and that gets into the whole larger rule of two of it all, right? Or it could be, who are you? This powerful rising presence in the dark side. I need to keep an eye on you. And then to get to your morsel part,

Either way, I think we have to wonder a couple things. Unquestionably, this helps influence what will happen with Anakin. Is he already behind some of that?

Was he involved in it initially in Brendock and the creation? Because we have that exchange later about the truly unique nature of the power needed to do that. Is that Anisea's power? Maybe. Is there another power behind that? Perhaps Plagueis guiding the creation? Or...

was that in fact, I want to say on her own. And then Plagueis is like, I got to learn how they did this. I got to study some of that. Yeah. All of that feels inbounds, which is to me really tantalizing. I think the only thing, I guess I need to go back and rewatch his snooping and sneaking, but it seemed like he was doing it from inside. Yeah. Uh, Mallory just did a great impression. What a day for this not to be on video. Um,

It seemed like he did that from inside the like crevasse that is also his chambers. You know what I mean? Like he was inside his cave room. Though I suppose any cave could look like that. Okay. Follow up thoughts and questions.

Leslie, in that interview with IndieWire, said she didn't want it to be on people's minds that Plagueis was pulling the strings on Osha and Kymere. Right. She didn't say whether or not that's what was happening. She just didn't want people to be thinking about that in the final moments. Yeah, it's the dominant. And so because Kymere and Osha...

especially in the way that they're just like finger grazing up a storm in this episode are so Kylo and Rey. I wish we had gotten some finger grazing. We kind of did like over the, over the lightsaber, but like, because they're so Kylo and Rey coded and we know that like Snoke was pulling the strings on their connections.

That feels, leads me down the path of Plagueis definitely orchestrated this. Whether he said overtly to Chimere,

Here's May. You know, we don't know how did Chimera May meet? We don't know that story yet. So whether or not he overtly said, here's May, or psychically nudged him the way that Snoke nudges Kylo and Rey, I don't know. I hope it's the latter. I'm excited to see how this all sort of plays out. And that would seem more in line with what you were teasing earlier.

which I know we were going to talk about elsewhere, but maybe it's worth talking about here, that New York Times interview and the idea of what the stranger is seeking, right? Because that fits better in that latter path of maybe there's some inception and nudging going on, but if he is seeking a connection on his own versus following through on an order, that feels maybe more in line. Lonely boy. All right, so cast out by the Jedi in one way or another. This is what Manny said to the New York Times about Chimera.

It always comes down to this feeling of being an outsider, being in a place that doesn't accept you. I think that's the reason it really resonated with Leslie and me, Leslie being a female gay showrunner in this industry and me being an Asian American male in this industry. We've constantly had to fight for our position and we've constantly had to prove ourselves. So I think it really is just a parallel to that type of feeling of wanting to be accepted and wanting to be able to really express oneself. So Chimera's longing for connection outside of perhaps –

the creepiness that is Darth Plagueis if he is indeed his acolyte. You know, so maybe he thinks he's doing this super self mission to like get his own acolyte and his master would never approve because of the rule of two or whatever. But like, um,

But then again, we don't know the timeline. Is Darth Tenebrous, Plagueis' master, still alive in canon timeline? We're not sure. So he couldn't even have an official accolade in Chimera. So a lot of questions. Again, makes me all excited for a potential season two. I think this is really fun. And...

I wish it hadn't been like such a stumble stop to get here, but I think it's really fun. I totally agree. And I'll just like quickly mention again there on the possibilities of like secret apprentices that Plagueis' master had a secret apprentice of his own who we talked about. They're always having secret apprentices. Yeah, a couple weeks ago. Venomous. Venomous. So, yeah. Nobody can help themselves, you know. Dooku had to have Ventress, et cetera. I just want to say that

Is it Hugo Damask the second? Is that how you would pronounce that? Hago? It's like Hugo, but with an E. It's very George R.R. Martin. This is Plagueis' real name, and I have no notes. I love Damask. Great. The second? Great. I love all of this. All right. So let's go to somewhere in space outside of Bread Dog. I don't really want to dwell here a lot. May gets herself loose with the help of Pip.

Can I just say it quickly? Yeah. It's like little things like this that drive me crazy. Sol doesn't hear Pip. Sol is the worst Jedi. He's like four feet away from me. Pip, who I love, is so loud as like a little electric screwdriver. I don't need to speak ill of the recently dead and framed for a lot of things he didn't do.

But there are so many times in this episode and elsewhere where he just doesn't sense shit. And I guess literally can't hear things with his own, you know, ear balls. So that's just where we are. I really did not like this because this coming out of the flashback episode, we get no interaction between them that is evident that he just like sat there and told her that story. And again, we had the question last week of like, whose point of view even was it that we were watching? All we come out of last week's,

You know, when he's like, I've been wanting to tell someone or you this for a long time, so I strapped you down to a table and I will take my opportunity to do so. And then they don't have like a real conversation about what, you know, she's just like, you killed my mother. She already knew that. So like, what else is happening here? So anyway, yeah.

quite you know it's it's bizarre he keeps doubling down it's very unappealing throughout the episode him like doubling down on like I was justified I did the right thing my only regret was not saving both of you she we get we get the virgins clone tease we'll come back to that because he'll be able to complete his sentence later interrupted by a little zap here she says see you in hell Jedi we actually got a ton of emails about this

But you cannot get mad at Leslie about this because Han Solo said it in Empire, so... But that's why... That's the thing about it that makes me mad. Not the line being in the show, the nod to Han. May has not... I'm sorry, but May has not earned the right to... No. Well, but May is not even a character. So it's a Han Solo line. It doesn't even, like... Let Chimera say that I'm fine. Okay. Um...

And then we get a space- Like, Mei got a Han Solo moment. What? We get a space chase fight. Yeah. How did you feel about this space chase fight? Again, mixed, because I thought visually it was cool and interesting. You know, it reminded me of going through the bone belt in Ahsoka. You love the bone belt. I love a bone belt. As is, I think, often the case across the series. Yeah.

And the, oh, wow, that's cool is like slightly weighed down by some sort of confounding thing. And I think there were a couple of those in this, like May saying for no reason that Sol's ship was too big to follow her in there. And then two seconds later, he's right on top of her. It's like, why even say that then? You just make your own characters look stupid. Or Basil sabotaging Sol's ship so that he didn't use the shooting target.

And then sold saying and doing nothing about it. Like Basil causes everyone to crash and there's no acknowledgement of it. That's just really weird. So I was like, oh, going through the rocks of the planet belt. Neat. And then the characters are doing things that make no sense. And that is in many ways, I think the story of the acolyte.

I regret to inform you it is time to go to Coruscant. Okay. I just really agree with you. The whole Basil Sabatelge's shift thing is baffling. But I have nothing to add to it. Okay. So sides of portents here. You and I agree that like most every Verne scene we're like, no, thank you. But here comes David Harewood. We've been like, who the hell is he playing? He's playing Senator Rancourt as we sort of wondered if he might. Here he is. And he's

Great. Crushed it. Just wonderful. We get some like unhelpful recapping of everything from Vern, but we get this exchange between Rancourt and Vern. Including revealing that there were more murders than he knew about, which I thought was genuinely amusing. Tough, tough moment for our favorite space twink mog though, when he's like, the Senate is here to see you. He's like so excited. He's like, the Senate is here. Oh, what?

Wait, was I not supposed to grant him access to your holo archives? I gave him the login to your data bank. Is that okay? Oh, whoops. All right. Steve, can we hear the great David Harewood? You don't like me. You think my campaign for an external review of the Jedi is a personal vendetta. If you want my honest opinion, yes. Good. Here's mine. I think the Jedi are a massive system of unchecked power posing as a religion that

A delusional cult that claims to control the uncontrollable. We don't control the Force. Not the Force. Your emotions. You project an image of goodness and restraint. But it's only a matter of time before one of you snaps. And when, not if, that happens, who will be strong enough to stop him? That's certainly an opinion, and not one shared by the rest of the Senate. The majority of my colleagues can't imagine a galaxy without the Jedi. And I can understand why.

Okay, I think I mentioned before that when we interviewed Leslie before the season, she said some things that I cut out of the interview because it felt spoilery. And one of them was this line, which is...

And when, not if that happens, who will be strong enough to stop him? She didn't say who said it. I assumed it was Chimera, but she didn't say who said it. She's like, someone in the finale says this. And I was like, well, we're cutting that out. But like, as soon as she said that, I was like, well...

She didn't say Anakin, but I'm like, that's the most Anakin coded thing we've ever heard in our entire fucking lives. But I'm so, I have a question for you about, I mean, like there's a lot of great language here. I loved him saying delusional cults. I love this idea that like the Jedi are being interrogated from the Senate and the Siths like coming, like getting it from both sides essentially here. But when he says, and when not, if that happens, who will be strong enough to stop him? It's almost the specificity of the pronoun that like, uh,

um makes me wonder what does the brain court know is there any like possibility that he has some sort of like access to the force himself or something like other knowledge or something that like why is he so sure that we're barreling towards palpatine and anakin what do you yeah i mean theory fodder definitely right is he a secret sith right

If there are timeline changes with legends, death points or anything else, like who could he potentially be or be connected to? Who could have taught him? Who could he have taught? I feel like almost anything is in bounds. I really like this. I say that's certainly an opinion. Yeah.

I mean, it just like, I was like riveted watching this and then that line just like sucked me back out. So it was a wild experience. Anyway, I thought that this was really, this is an example of how it's like effective to play on our knowledge of what's to come, right? In the future, because we can,

The speculators, as we're doing right now, like, well, how does he know? Why is it him? Okay. Maybe that is just ultimately there for us, right? Because it's like, we know who he is. We know that this is Anakin's setup. But the other reason that I like this beyond the building the bridge to Anakin is

beyond the rain court theorizing that it sparks for us is like this is still the part of the show other than, you know, Chimera and Osha and their electricity. This was the soul through line of the show that worked so well for us. Like this interrogation of the relationship between the Jedi and emotion and it felt essential to have that voiced so directly. Yeah.

And like with such panache, like David Harewood affecting like a slightly toffier accent than he usually uses here. I just, I just loved it. I loved his design. I'm like, I'm like,

Because we've been like, oh, no, we're back in Coruscant. Oh, no, politics, politics, politics. But this is wonderful and it makes me, again, hopeful for a future season where we get even more of this character. Yeah. And I think this is the way to make it feel like the scenes that take us away from the characters we're more interested in into the Jedi Council or Senate and High Republic scenes where we're like, oh, boy, bureaucracy. Yeah. Yeah.

If they're connected to examining that central thematic question, then they feel important. And if there's poetry and intrigue in the language and the delivery. You don't have to face what's right in front of you. That's great. We can tell why he has a following here. And again, this also just feels like kind of bold and like.

You know, in Star Wars, I do think having your characters in your show and having your story put ideas like this to the fore, it's like a brave thing to do because we've seen how the fan base can – certain segments of the fan base can really respond negatively, toxically to it. And it's like one of the things – one of the reasons, again, we've talked about this a lot. You and Van will talk about it more next week. Like why we loved The Last Jedi so much, why many people do –

And like the lament that we felt that the need to kind of like unwind many of the things that happened in Last Jedi was so disappointing. And so like for many reasons inside what this show specifically and these characters can unlock, but just more broadly, like Star Wars being willing to, you know,

engage with something the, the, the, up the non like, Oh, you're heroes. You're the coolest figures in the galaxy. Like everybody buys their lightsaber merchant, including me and can't wait to sit down and watch star Wars. It's like, well, what are, what is, what is the other side of this? Like, what is the, we're always talking about the dark side. Well, what is the dark side in inside of the light? Like, I, I just really think it's,

I can't wait for this to be a more front-loaded central part of season two if we are in that Sith point of view more. I just am really, really excited for that. And again, that also is part of why it's enticing to theorize about a potential Sith connection to Rancourt because that is Sith perspective. But it's also, I would say, genuinely as interesting if then he has no tie to the Sith. Totally. The like, how is he prophesizing thing would be...

But it's just like other people feel this way about you too, not just dark side users. Exactly, exactly. I just really love it. I know that Lucasfilm has in the past shied away from this in other projects, like projects that have been canceled or changed or whatever. They were like, we don't want to do this interrogation. I love that this is here. I just really...

You know what? Okay. We got an email. I'm not going to read the email itself with love and respect to that person. I don't want to plagiarize their headline without acknowledging it. The headline of the email was the greatest teacher failure is, and it wasn't really about this, but like the greatest teacher failure is, is what can turn a stumble of a season one into an incredible season two. And the greatest teacher failure is, is what can turn Lucasfilm into,

And their scaredy cat approach to the rise of Skywalker into something bolder and braver in the future. And so that's why I was talking a little bit before you jumped on the zoom to Stephen Arjuna about a second season. And like, you know, quite realistically, I'm not throwing you under the bus at all. Steve, Steve is like, why should I possibly hope that they would improve for the future? What evidence upon what evidence Joanna? And I'm like, yeah. Um,

The hope, the dream. Like, I don't know. I don't know why I've decided to be optimistic about this, but I'm just like, I don't know. Like, what's the point of me saying it's not going to happen? I think I would much rather just like hope and wish that it will happen. You know? I really agree. Two things. One, we talked about this a lot last week, a podcast that we restructured because we were so down on the episode. Yeah. But, but,

Part of the reason that we're feeling some of these laments and some of these critiques really feel poignant inside of the show is because the potential is so clear in other spots. That's genuine. We're not just saying that so we would protect anyone's feelings or because we want a female-led Star Wars story or whatever. It's because genuinely there's meat on the bone here thematically. That's why I love...

the way that you just described the season, I love that you said stumble because the reason that feels perfect to me is like, you can only stumble if you're trying to run. Like they tried to do something and that's, that's valuable. Like that's important. That's cool. So let's try to do something again. And maybe we tie our shoelaces a little tighter. I don't know how running works. I don't ever try it. Steve, you're a runner. Maybe you have insights to share. Are shoelaces important? I don't know. Yeah.

All right, let's go to bread dog. Well, I'll just say we get a tease of the, we had a Yoda tease. We're meant to think it's something more insidious, like that she's contacting, you know, a Sith or something like that, but it's, it's Yoda. She's trying to contact Yoda. Vern's trying to contact Yoda. Mog,

Why? Gets to redeem himself from his earlier blunder by saying, we found Saul. He's on Brandock. Everybody's going to Brandock. A bunch of knights are coming with them. And she says, he's like, do you expect a confrontation? She says, a resolution. So I guess my question to you then, before we go to Brandock, is like, do you think she had already decided to frame Saul before they even go? Would she have done something to him if she hadn't found him dead on the ground? Yeah.

What do you think? Interesting question. I don't know. We don't know. And I have two responses to the fact that I don't know. One is, I'm up to my show. One is, I don't know. And I like that I don't know because there's intrigue and mystery and it leaves room in the future for us to learn more. And then the other side of it is I don't know because I don't feel like I understand anything about this character.

She did almost precisely exactly what we thought she was going to do. Yes. There was just a gentleness to it that we didn't quite, as she does this very shitty thing. Which was more disturbing in a way that I thought was effective. Okay, let's go to Brenda. If I had to guess, I would say she decides when she sees his body.

this is what I'll do. But, like, I don't think she necessarily had a fully locked, I'm absolutely setting out to follow through on my concretized, I set the spreadsheet plan to frame Sol. I think she knew she had to

figure out how to contain this because that's been the case since, you know, the beginning of the season, this like fear, this paranoia that Discovery would upend something for the Jedi. So I believe the level of specificity and intent

I'm not sure, like heading in, but I think the part of the intent that was present was I have to make sure that we're protected at all costs. I don't know that anyone would have necessarily been safe from Vern based on how this goes, though I was relieved that Mog made it out alive. Mog and Baz, is that a spinoff you want? Okay, so it's a bit more like Ned Stark, now 10s sort of thing. It's sort of like, I don't have a specific way, but like no matter what, we're finishing this because I got to get to Lyanna. Okay, let's go to Bradford.

Absolutely iconic stuff from Khmer. Just wonderful. Sensational. All the way back home, his all the way back home quip

I mean, shout out to Osha too. She shuts off his power in his part of the ship. Really funny when he's just like flipping switches and it's not working. Great. Yeah. He'd be like kind of a little bit of the doofy. Yeah. I'm pretending to be Chimera at the apothecary. Yeah. Broke through in a way that made me think he was like tapping in and assuming that persona to like someone.

little true kernel inside maybe of like how he used to be that was kind of fun to think about. He was how he was as a Jedi. Temple. Okay. Sol's wandering around having an acid flashback to what happened to him on Brandok to happen to all of them. He's screaming may as if he's Jorah looking for his Khaleesi like it's all very emotionally out of control for Sol. But if you're like Mallory Rubin were wondering why Sol and Tormund had to climb their asses up the mountain when they could have used the force how

How much did you love that Chimer's like, what do you mean we have to take the elevator? I have the force. How did you feel about it? I thought it was wonderful. I thought it was important. I thought it was necessary. Yeah. I thought it was a service to all of us. I guess, you know, he can levitate and fly, which Sol and Torben can't do, but they definitely can force jump because they are Jedi. So, yeah. I love that he's like, I can't remember what exactly he says here. He's like,

Or do I? Or is that what you think? Or whatever it is he says. But it's like slightly echoey because he's already gone. It's great. Soul just goes back to that goddamn broken bridge where so many confusing things happened. Yeah.

And continues to be, unfortunately, because I do still have some affection for him, the worst fucking Jedi that ever was because he cannot sense that May is literally right there at the over the edge of the precipice. A hand comes up out of the chasm. It's a little ray-coded, but also, did you worry for a second that the hand belonged to Mother Coral? Not until I read this question in the outline. Saw the twisting of the gut.

I would love to never see Coral again. Same, same. Those are, that's one of my top notes for season two. No mother Coral return. Thank you. Okay. Great return of the chancy witchy stuff though. I loved that. Okay. And then here we go. A fucking incredible lightsaber fight. So good. So good. Kymer says, thank you for leading me to her. We make a great team. Do you feel like he's definitely talking about Osha here instead of May?

I have to assume given that he basically was like, fuck off, May, mere episodes prior. So like I was rewatching the multiple times, the helmet scene at the beginning when he's processing what the vision that Osha has. Yeah. That I think those of us with any sort of media literacy were like, oh, she's seeing a vision of herself, force choking soul to death, not her sister. Right. He didn't seem to process that as like the vision that she has in the helmet.

of someone who looks exactly like her force choking soul to death. He kind of seemed like he bought into that. That would be may. I didn't read his facial expression to be like, actually dumb, dumb. It's you. You know what I mean? Because he's not like, let's go to bread knock. I can't wait to see you force choke this dude. He's like, I'm going, you know? So you think OSHA, like soul can't spot the forehead tattoo accurately. No, the bangs often cover the tattoo. Um,

I actually think there are two valid interpretations of – Wait, wait. Here's why I definitely think – I think at that point, which is mere hours before what happens, Osha cannot conceive of a version of herself that would do that. And so I can see her like seeing that and being like, well, it would never be me, so it's got to be Osha. It's got to be Mae. You know what I mean? It's got to be Mae. All right, go ahead. Yeah, I think there are two possibilities, right? Because at the end of that, we get the like –

this is the future. You saw the future's not set. Obviously two of the episodes were called destiny and choice. So that's been an area of interest for the series. I think one of them, one of the possibilities is what you're saying, which is she sees herself doing this and doesn't realize that she sees herself doing it. I think the other one is that she, um,

possibly is seeing may and this becomes a like you set into motion a different series of things and seeking to avoid uh or change you know the old uh self-fulfilling prophecy yeah great to see it and of course you are with us in all of our pods this week really i think the thank you for leading me to her we make a great team does did feel like it was about

Osha and in a much broader sense than anything about the physical proximity of where people are in this episode. Obviously, they travel there together. It's like leading me to her in terms of now this new partnership that we will be able to forge because obviously that is his intention and desire. Desire is a big part of this as well. There is this prescience element to Kymer because, you know, he says like,

Thanks for lending me to her. We'll make your regime. And then they like start doing some of the sickest lightsaber fighting you've ever seen in your goddamn life. It's amazing. And then Sol says, I will destroy you if I must. And Chimera says, not if she gets you first. Again, I do think he's talking about Osha, but it could be talking about Mei or either of them. They are the same person after all. But then later when the Jedi arrive and...

you know, soul's like, you'll pay for what you did. And he's like, they're not here for you. That's my Hamilton impression. Uh, he's like, um, they're, they're not here for me, man. They're here for you. Like, how does he know that? How does he know that? I think that's not a pothole. That's something I'm excited to know more. Yeah. You know, I think that this is like this. I love that moment. Now you pay for what you've done. Oh, they're not here for me. First of all, because the deliveries, like both of them, the performances are just so good.

And there's the certainty. Like, Sol is a character who is consumed by doubt, but there's a certainty that he almost, like, insists on convincing himself exists in terms of the possibility of the order that he has devoted his life to. And then for the stranger, the opposite is at play, and this feels connected to then what he'll say under the bunta tree, like, you put your faith in the Jedi after all this? Still? Right? Which was a good note. Yeah.

A valuable thing to say out loud and an important question to ask. Hashtag this is my right. Put it on the merch. We've got a lot of like X character was right mugs popping up this week. So this feels like

In part that he has some sort of like larger understanding and sense of how these particular events might play out, but also just these are people who are willing to discard their own if it serves them, because that is his personal experience. So, yeah, I really liked that moment. And the duel is incredible. Incredible. Did you have a favorite moment, a favorite move in the duel for the combat versus Kanye? Yeah.

I think it's hard to pick. I really loved the chest kick. I thought that was sick. But I think my favorite actually was because the thing I loved most about the Seoul Chimera Duel as they moved from the hallway down into the courtyard was this...

shifting from a like visceral, savage ferocity hacking in certain moments. Yeah. Yeah. Like knights with broad swords into this balletic, graceful, harmonious, like dance of the dragons. Right. Yeah. And so I think the moment that I loved most was,

was one that fell a little bit more into the former camp, actually. It was when their blades are crossed and they're pushing into each other with every ounce of strength they both possess to the extent that the blades almost looked like they were morphing and melding into each other, which not only was an...

incredibly evocative visual, but it felt very thematically rich. What is light? What is dark? What have you done with your darkness? Right. That was just like, perfect. We're about to see that blue saber bleed, you know, like incredible, a very important moment in my life.

I can't wait to get out of the way for you to talk about that. But for me, I think I have to pick, just for nostalgia's sake, he does this Falcon Punch move, the Leap Punch move, which is the same move. I mean, it's been used a million times, but it's the same move. In the series finale, spoilers, the lightest spoilers for the series finale of Lost. In the series finale of Lost, Dr. Jack Shepard

Pulls that move right into a commercial break. And it's one of the funniest commercial breaks that's ever happened in all of television. He does a flying punch to the air into a commercial break. And then you like come back into it. It's so funny. So I was just thinking about Dr. Jack Shepard as I sometimes am. Yeah.

Yeah, and I think to that balletic point, there's the sort of like Wuxia-inspired wire work, Crouching Tiger, but there's also in Soul, the way that Soul both

It's not even sheaths. It's like hilts and hooks and unhooks the weapon. The flourish of his hand as he does that, as he pulls into position, is so... It reminds me a lot. I talk about this all the time, but it reminds me a lot of the way that Colin Farrell approached wand work in Fantastic Beasts, a movie that I don't like, but I love his...

No one has ever does wand fighting better than Colin Farrell in that movie. And he's just like took it to another level in terms of the flourishes. And I really feel like Lee Jung Jae did that with Sol's sort of like the way that he treated his weapon. And in terms of constantly thinking about a season two, I'm like,

I need someone, I mean, you know, Manless Enberg, we're about to, we very quickly after this get a Manless Enberg versus a Manless Enberg stunt double fight that looks really good. Yeah. But I need someone. Yeah, the mirror movements were cool. But I need someone in season two on Li Zhengjie's cyber fighting level to match Manage Jacinto. Many, oh, oh, oh.

So pronunciation corner. I've been saying Manny Jacinto because that is how I've heard him say his name. And it is true that that is how he said his name in the past. I have video evidence of this. And we got several emails of people being like, you're mispronouncing his name. I'm like, I know I'm not because I have heard him say it.

with my own ears in front of me. Uh, he is now pronouncing his name, Manny Jacinto, which is the like, you know, way more traditional way in which his, his name should be said in more recent interviews. He is saying Jacinto. And so, or Jacinto. And so it's like, uh, I like that. He's like, guess what? I don't have to dumb it down for the white people. It's like, you can pronounce my name. So I apologize. I've been mispronouncing it. Um, anyway, um,

I want someone on his saber fighting level in season two now that Li Zhengjie is sadly off the board. So... I won't miss Sol. Tremendously. Tremendously. Okay. The saber is broken. A lot of stuff is happening. We get that cool sort of like crystal eye view or whatever. And then...

Kymer tries to play every play in the Sith handbook to get Mei to finish the fight for him. Right. So this is this sort of feeds into the whole like he thought Mei could maybe do this. He didn't know that it like had to be Osha. Right. Good Mei. Feel your anger. This is a source of your pain. Strike him down and your journey will be complete. And then we get some virgins. Yes.

twin clone lore. That is exactly what we suspected, but let's hear it anyway. But not before May just astonishingly once again is like I devoted my whole life to fighting these people, but I'm going to put my faith in the Jedi High Council, the Senate, and the Republic. I can't. It makes no sense, and so I refuse to engage. All right, Steve, let's hear this. You and the ocean are the same person.

The audio changed because Osha's entering the scene.

He got overturned. Hand reaching down. As has ever been the case.

Saul is completely oblivious to her arrival and does not sense that she's standing right for him as May leads him handily into this like confession of I killed your mother. But to go back to, let's like underline this thing that you alluded to earlier, right? In the history of the galaxy, very few have been that powerful. What do you want to say about this like calling out of how powerful Anisea or perhaps a Plagueis-assisted Anisea must have been to do this in the first place? It's...

So, okay, here I'm like... On the one hand, it makes me wonder if the quarrels of the world are destined to come back into the story, which makes me a little nervous, honestly. I know. But that, like...

Real but ultimately small caveat aside, it feels like we have a lot to learn about that coven and their magic and their history. We know that they all felt like they were cast out by other aspects of society, pursued because of the perceptions from others of the nature of their thread usage. Unnatural.

Is Anasea alone in possession of this unique power? Is this an example of what the power of many literally means? What their ascension rituals and this connection... Remember, we see them all operating as a unit, as a hive mind, when Indara seemingly kills them all through their mental tether to Kelnaka. So is the...

extent of their power because it is the power of many? Is it one individual person? I feel like we definitely have more to learn there. And then again, like we talked about earlier, is that, is the might of that power now something that Osha can channel? Like, how powerful is she? And you called out that, you know, Chimera says that

It's not just that the Jedi are, I think, very clear what he is saying. There's not just, you know, he's like, when they find out how powerful you are, it's not just, oh, they're going to see what happened to Sol. They're going to know that you turned to the dark side. They don't like that. We're going to have a problem. It's something unique is happening here in terms of what she is capable of doing or connected to. Like your mother. Yeah.

Like, they'll do you what they did to your mother, right? Yeah. And he obviously heard that virgins line. He knows that this is something that the Jedi were there then investigating. He loves the virgins. So, yeah. I bet. I bet. Let it bleed, baby. Here we are. As Sol continues to defend and justify what he did and claim was all protector. It's all really tough stuff from Sol in this episode. It's really, really tough. Yeah.

Osha stops. It's like a swift little like plunge into the dark side here. Like a pretty rapid tumble for, for Osha here. Proud Star Wars tradition. As she, yeah, that's true. She force chokes him out. And I guess this is what it means to kill a Jedi without a weapon. He doesn't have one and she doesn't use one. She's holding onto the saber, but she's forced choking him. So once and for all, kill a Jedi without a weapon.

I've decided means. The Jedi doesn't have a weapon, so they're defenseless. This is something that Kymer highlighted in episode four where he was like, a Jedi would never kill someone. So it's like you're truly a darksider if you kill someone who is unarmed. That's something a Jedi would never do. And then you're also using the Force for murder. You're not using- Murder! Murder. You're not using poison or a saber. You're Force choking someone to death. Yeah. So-

I believe using the force choke instead of a saber or a knife was our very first guess. I think like what I like. But it's been so confusing throughout, or at least for me. I know. So what I like about this is it kind of works in all directions because while Osha is

You know, the other thing we talked about a lot was, is the death falling to the dark side. And like, that's also happening here, right? So Osho would be the first to say, as she does in this very episode, that she is not a Jedi. It's the old, I am no Jedi. But that's a label someone else tells you has meaning. Like, this was a path that she devoted her life to until she went to be a mech neck, a

A detail that feels extremely long ago and genuinely untethered to the rest of the story. Wild stuff. And so like this is also the death of Osha as a Jedi. And the weapon in that sense would be the betrayal. So it's happening in both directions. I thought that part of it was effective. We had predicted that this might happen, that Osha would be the one to kill Saul. And this idea of the weapon is her.

She's the weapon in terms of like corrupt the acolyte. The acolyte kills the dream, right? Corrupt the acolyte because Saul, as he dies here. Yeah. And he's like, it's okay.

I love you. I did everything because I love... Yeah, that was sad. That was sad that he started to choke to death as he was saying I love you. Yes, but he's still in his delusion of his motivation. He never sees the light of what he did was, how wrong what he did was. Yeah, I was protecting you. It was the right thing to do. My God, but... It would have sent you away. But there is a sense...

That he's not fighting back as hard as he might have. Yeah, he's succumbing. Totally. He's succumbing because it is as devastating as anything else to see this girl that he cared for that he was supposed to train and keep safe.

fall to the dark side. And so in that way, the acolyte kills the dream. And we fulfilled our promise from episode one. Um, I liked this. I loved the, we see the Kyber changing colors as she's doing this, uh, which was so cool. Um, really good. And then, uh,

She, you know, she unsheathes the blue blade and we see it bleed red in front of our very eyes. Mally Robay, take me to Kyber Bleeding Corner, if you would. I really loved this. Getting to see what this looks like in live action was just...

an incredibly exciting thing for Star Wars fans. And, you know, we've gotten to glimpse the ritual and learn more about the nature of, like, bleeding the crystal. Elsewhere in the canon, like, it's a pretty big part of... We've talked, actually, elsewhere in the Acolyte run about the Darth Vader comic run. Yes. And it's a big part of that in the earlier issues, which we've also mentioned. Seeing it happen in live action, I think the thing that...

you know, and I should say like, we also have talked about this a lot, mostly in the Ahsoka pods, but we've also gotten the opposite. Like in the Ahsoka novel, we get to see her purify the previously bled crystals from the sixth brother. So this is always interesting because it tells us a lot about like the mythology and the

magic and the mysticism of the force and what the connection between an individual Jedi or Sith and their power is and how that manifests. Like one of the things about the bleeding or purifying of a crystal in particular, that's so interesting and why I thought this was so cool to see is like the idea of bleeding a crystal. You're pouring all of, all of the things that we always hear about when we talk about the path to the dark side.

anger, fear. Like you are pouring that part of you into this physical thing and changing it just as you yourself have changed, right? It is a representation of the way that your very being, your soul, your heart, your mind has altered. Yeah.

OSHA didn't sit, grab that, that saber and sit down and say, this is a decision I have made actively about my life. And now I will engage in the ritual of bleeding this crystal. It happened much like what we saw at the beginning of the episode with the Anisea-esque mind penetration, mental penetration. Yeah.

It was a manifestation and an exhibition of her power that she could not control. Yes. And in that way, I thought it actually heightened her.

Our understanding of not only that connection between the thing in your hand and the thing inside of you, but the extent of what was happening to her. There was no need to deliberately say, I do this thing now. It was uncontainable. And I loved that. And then she looked like the way they're all looking at the blade. I know. It's so good. And the way that she is looking down and it's like, well, this is who I am now. And from there on, she just purely accepts it.

She's just sort of like, well, right. It was like, again, it was something undeniable to see it that she almost felt like she couldn't fight back against. And there was something I thought really like tragic about that, but dramatically very compelling. It's like, but that's things like the Sith point of view. I am. I should be like, oh, no, but I'm like, how fun. Here we go. She's a Sith now. It's kind of what I want. Yeah. And like, again, the other thing, the last thing I want to say on that is just like you're bleeding someone else's crystal. Right. That's standard.

For her to bleed Sol's crystal. And the idea that in season two... Just further... Yeah. The idea that in season two... That's what she'll be using. She'll be carrying Sol's bled saber that she bled as she was killing him. Every time she's training, every time they're sparring, every time they're out on a mission fighting, doing something, she will hold in her hand a reminder of who she has become, the power that she possesses, what she is capable of, but also what she did, what she lost, what she left behind. And I...

To go back to this idea of like it was – it wasn't a sit-down ritual. It was sort of a – Yeah. Accidental or the –

The idea thematically, the idea is so rich and so good, but also this idea that like she possesses a power that she could just bleed a Kyber without sort of focusing her energy on it. It's just her, her emotions are so big that she can just bleed a Kyber cause she's holding it while she's doing a murder. And it's also like, it also feels connected to what Kyber, what Kymer keeps saying about like, you need a teacher. Yeah.

Like you need training. I think the question you raised earlier of will that be mutual and also like how successfully can you train somebody who is maybe more powerful than you? Oh, that was the other thing that I like really liked about the soul chimera fight, by the way, was just, we saw chimera like dispense with ease of entire fellowship of red shirts and soul was. Okay. Shit at the force. Good at saber forms. Um, so, uh,

And also the way that the saber is used then throughout the rest of the episode of the two of them wrapping their hands around it in two distinct moments. Yeah. This is a path forward for us together shared. Yada, yada. Vern is exactly who we thought she was. Baz and Mog have a very sweet little moment. You're alive. Have fun. Great.

The way she narrows her eyes and she says, Hugh, you're alive? And then he almost looked – it's not even his face. I rewatched this a bunch of times to sort of identify what felt like fearful –

In him, the haste with which he puts the helmet back on to block himself from Vern's perception. But it's almost like, it almost looked boyish to me. It looked very young. This sort of, just sort of like hasty hiding from his former master. Yeah. He became the pupil again, the boy again in that moment. Vern just out and out says, my pupil, so we know she's talking about him. We all know this is true. Manny, for some reason, is still playing coy in the New York Times interview. But like, yes, this is...

This is, as we suspected, the lash marks on his back that exactly match her lightsaber whip. We don't know the circumstances of this. We might find we are on Vern's side in that moment. Probably, possibly, who's to say? But for the moment, we can think. It feels impossible to me that I could be on Vern's side instead of Kaimir's. I'll guess Kaimir, but that's the

point of view but but um for the time being i choose to imagine just the identical sort of like luke kylo moment where it's just sort of like someone reacts yes to something in a way they don't understand so so you mentioned you mentioned this earlier the possibility that the you're alive could be just surprised because maybe she would have thought his natural lifespan hers is quite long as we've talked about maybe she's like wait well when you're not dead yet i thought when i cast you out of the order and accidentally or purposefully slashed your back open that a few years later her

a couple decades later, however long, you'd die. Do you think, though, that this is... Do you think it's that? Or do you think this was... I thought I killed you. I thought I killed you. Oh, yeah. I'm of two minds about it. Like, my first reading was I thought I killed you. And then I started thinking about the timeline things that we know. Vern is very old. Looks great. Green don't crack. But she's very old. And so how long ago was Kaimir her pupil? We don't know. Right.

Yeah. Yeah. It gave me a... Because obviously the whipping and anything that happened, like that would already be horrible. But this did give me a like, oh, holy shit, did she think she murdered him? Did she think she killed him? Well, like how murdery is a murdery? Like whip his back and oops, he fell over a cliff. You know what I mean? Sol thought he murdered May. Maybe she had the high ground and then someone fell into lava. Who can say? Yeah. Who can say? I thought the other thing that I really liked about the...

haste with which he put the cortosis helmet of it not available until 2025 and already sold out astonishing stuff onto his head which pains me is um

It reinforced, I think, something that we had already started speculating about when we began to think that she was his former master, which is he built that for her. Not just, oh, I don't want the Jedi more broadly. That person, my former master, and we had heard the way that he had spoken before about what that relationship meant and symbolized and could be and then how...

how broken you would be if that very thing had crumbled in front of you. That person had failed you and they thought you had failed them. So,

The idea that she saw something, she specifically saw something in him that scared her, that horrified her. But again... That made her think he had to be cast out. And he's like, I can't let that happen again with her or anyone. Again, and that's on the self-fulfilling prophecy front. It's like, saw something horrible in his future, so thus she cast him out. And in casting him out, that's how he becomes a stranger. Yep. Hopefully... Good work, Vern! Thanks! He...

Nope, I won't finish that sentence. Okay, anyway. He seems to abandon the girls in this moment, right? Like, he's sort of like... They decide to leave. He's still lurking and lingering because later he's snooping around the crime scene as Vern is making her, you know, plant a frame soul. But I kind of like this idea that he just sort of like...

oh shit burns here and it's just sort of like i gotta disappear yeah we find out how may survived the bridge fall it doesn't really matter does it no it doesn't matter zero percent she just crawled out some way or another we do we do get this intriguing little morsel about their twin rhyme right you're with me i'm with you who taught us that rhyme i thought you made it up

Is this a spell? Is this a powerful, important spell?

will it help unlock May's memory in a future season or cause the girls to smoke monster into each other or like, right. It feels like a spell like that. Dude, I really thought you were going to be right about your theory last week of the absorption. Like it really seemed in balance for a lot of this episode. When Sol's like, they're the same person. I was like, what if I'm right? And then it wasn't. And I was like, I shouldn't have been right though. They shouldn't have done that. So I'm glad they didn't.

Yeah, it did. The point, pointing our attention to like them not knowing where this came from and what the origin of it was feels connected to this larger, like what were they created for, you know, and what was the intent behind that? The only, you know, the only person who can tell us for sure. Coral, come on back in. Coral, we need you. See now that we need you. We never needed you more, Coral.

But yeah, it felt like there was a, oh, this is like a, almost like a ritual, a trigger in a ritual or something that like, just haven't quite hit that moment of activation. We've already. I'm, I know that Oshun tells me that she'll find her. I, what if she didn't? What if she didn't?

I'm just throwing that out there. May could be the Masaria of season two. I love Masaria in House of the Dragon this season. And like she was a real problem for me in season one. So what if May becomes like a great character in season two? But also I take your note. Okay. Rebellions are built on hope, Mallory. Come on.

We've already said that we find a lot of this confounding and confusing. A lot of just like big decisions are made without much discussion at all. It seems very odd and bizarre. I just didn't get it at all. This was really rough. I really feel at least, okay, if we didn't get the twins smoke monstering into each other, at least someone got their memory wiped, which is something I felt so certain had to happen. So that's great. And I also, I liked the,

I liked the use of the rhyme as like an indicator that her memory was gone. I thought that was like a clever little bit of. Yeah. Yeah. I know. I think we could have used May then like as she can't complete the line. And it's like.

like entwined with the person she no longer recognizes. Just maybe a moment where she's like, who the fuck are you? Why are you hugging me? I don't know you. Why do you look like me? Here's my own. I was happy that we got the mind wipe. I felt thrilled for you. You've been on this corner since day one. Here's my only note. I think that eliminating huge, huge,

The two most consequential figures in a person's life. Two of the three. We'll put Mother Anastasia in the top three as well. Wow. Two of the three most important figures. For Coral. Coral did not make the cut.

I just think if you're eliminating your master who trained you and you have clearly spent a lot of time with, possibly even like, because she doesn't, when she's talking to Vern later, Vern's like, your last memory is from when you were eight. Because Kymer says, I'm going to erase me and I'm going to erase Osha. So I was like,

Yeah. Did he meet her when she was eight? Was he with her the entire time? And so that meant like all that time was gone. There were, there were, there were guarding Henry and her. And listen, regarding Henry, what a great movie. Will anybody hang a painting of a Ritz cracker box in season two? Will they attempt to make one big cookie? Who's to say? Inquire want to know, need to know. But,

I do think it should. If you're erasing that much of someone's life, it should take longer than one hand swipe and longer than a force joke. Well, he says I can attempt to wipe her memory. Yeah. And the way he said it was uncertain. I think he did a not not a perfect job. That's what I think. Oh, boy. So we don't want to talk about all the parts of this that made no sense. We're just going to we're just we don't. Well, well, my sister go and I will train with you. Are you sure?

why dwell we agree it doesn't make any sense there's no but i'm not trying to wipe it like there are major parts of this episode that are bad and make no sense i'm not trying to like what do you want i care now definitely and we understand why i care now suddenly all right let's go to okay if we must

It's not the crime, it's the cover-up. As we already mentioned, Vern is at least compassionate and apologetic. Wait. What? Wait. What did I miss? Wait. One thing. What? We cannot leave today without observing. The true crime? Osha didn't take Pip. May needs Pip. May needs Pip more than ever before. I just can't remember. Pip is like an association with Osha. Well, now they're both amnesia friends together. Yeah.

That is so grim. Okay, so you think that Osha let Mae keep Pip as a companion. I'll take your hot master, your hot sleepless master. Here, you can have my little droid. I think it's a fair trade. Maybe it would have been cruel, actually, for Osha to keep Pip because Pip didn't remember her or recognize her and squirted her in the face. That was a tough moment. That was really funny. Pip's like, I got a new friend now. All right, back to Coruscant.

Vern gives a speech in Mon Mothma cosplay. Frankly, I'm offended by her pretending to be the Mon. Ray Corning and Chancellor Drellick, great character, seems somewhat skeptical. And the center is still very much in favor of a floor review, something to look forward to in season two. Yeah.

But you don't think Vern convinced them with there's nothing to review? He's dead? He killed himself? I burned him. Don't look into it. He definitely killed himself. And then I burnt the body and all the evidence. Don't worry about it. Horrible stuff from Vern here. Let's listen to Vern. Hideous. Shall we? Saul made a mistake. A mistake he lived with for so long it twisted his mind. He justified every selfish step with the love he had for your sister. My sister? Yes.

Does the name Osha mean anything? Poor girl. You've been through so much. The Jedi have failed you. I am going to make this right. But I need your help. With what? I need you to help me find someone. Who? A pupil of mine. Before he turned to evil. We did get an email from Scott who wrote, the full email is just, my pupil, he was on Prendok researching the force of my mother right before she died.

Oh my God. Dakota Johnson. You will always be with us. All right. Remarkable stuff. Anything you want to say? I mean, like, yeah, it's a Vern in quite insidious. What's happening here with Vern and which is okay.

I said I wasn't going to do this. I'm going to do this in like a gentle way, as gentle way as possible. We got an email from a listener who said we were incorrect in our assumptions of what Vern would do because Vern is a beloved High Republic character and they wouldn't have this beloved High Republic character who's in the middle of her arc in the publishing world revealed to be, you know, as beautiful

to do the terrible things that she does here in Framing Saul, et cetera. And potentially killing her people and all this other stuff. And guess what they did? They did do that. We were correct about that. But I think that

fascinating thing to do. Like, you know, Leslie is given this High Republic character to play with and she's like, I would like to take this character who you are propping up as heroic and have her do these shitty things and Lucasfilm, to the question of like, can Lucasfilm change? Lucasfilm says, okay. I know Vern's not like a high stakes High Republic character. It's not like we're doing this with, you know,

people's complaint about the last Jedi Luke Skywalker or something like that. Like it's not a Luke Skywalker that we're sort of saying like, Hey, what if he became a Herbert on an Island somewhere? But like, I loved it. I also loved it, but also like, I think that's cool. They're like, yeah, this person we're meeting who's heroic in the publishing can do this for the sake of bureaucracy or fear or whatever you want to call it can do the shitty thing in the future. Yeah. I agree. I think this is interesting. Yeah.

I'm fascinated to see how we reconcile or how the show like reconciles what Vern does here with the Yoda element coming into play at the end, because before we see Yoda, like just in real time watching this. Yeah. Public theater. Right. Yes.

Because we get that really harrowing little cut to, Sol, I'm sorry, my friend. And obviously we know that what she's saying to the Senate, to May, is not true. The way that it was cut was just, you know, it makes our heart clench. It was great. This betrayal. Really good. So it's not just that she's blaming Sol.

She is obscuring the rise of the Sith. Yep. Like she has been saying for episodes, pinging that... Tip the scales. Tip the scales, larger plan. And she knows that the people who she says turned to evil, very A New Hope-esque phrasing, and she's not telling them that because it...

And I think what we're meant to understand is that the way she's justifying this to herself is like, if they start investigating us and try to control us, we won't be able to then try to fight this. And that's the kind of hubris that is so interesting for us to watch. So I like what I really loved was when we go back to Vernon May and Vern says,

soul made a mistake a mistake he lived with for so long it twisted his mind he justified every selfish step with the love he had for your sister she's talking about him but also about herself not the love for your sister part but like how do you justify the things that you will do and what was her original mistake was it casting out with her people but yeah she's talking about herself but she's like but also what i love about that is what she's saying about soul is true

Absolutely. Yeah. And then, but that makes it more delicious that like it is true. She can see how wrong it goes. She is in a place where she is like capitalizing on that horror and that tragedy. And then she is undergoing and experiencing and exhibiting like a version of that and either can't clock it or doesn't care because she thinks she's going to be

maybe the only person capable of like fixing it. And then we end up having, I don't know if you heard, but somehow Palpatine or Darn. Somehow. So a lot of blood on Vern's hands. A lot of blood. And this is why. But then does she tell Yoda? That's like the complexity here. What? She cannot possibly tell Yoda about the Sith. Like cannot. This is just why that, but this is why him being there is just. Well, I don't like it.

Just the same way I don't like Vader showing up in Rogue One. Like, I just don't like it. Not a take we share. I understand. I don't like it. So then what is she telling you? Well, again, I don't know. I don't know. It seems like Yoda is only here to get people excited to talk about Darth Legas and Yoda and gin up excitement for season two when the real lure for season two is obviously Manny Jacinto's arms. Like, obviously. Like, clearly. So, like...

But it seems like bait. And I just kind of, I just will have to wait and see. I don't want to get trapped in that whole, like, how could this is possibly here when we heard in the prequels that no one knew about the Sith for this mate? Like, and then they like answered all of that. So like, I don't, I'm not saying you were doing that. I'm just saying like, I don't, I don't want to get trapped in this whole, like, I trust that Leslie's not going to introduce something unlike me.

fucking Obi-Wan meeting Leia when she's a child, I trust that Leslie's not going to throw something in there that is going to absolutely, you know, undo canon or war. Yeah, I'm confident. I am confident in that as well, ultimately. But it feels like the placement of it just leaves open like a now very long period of time of like,

fear and trepidation that that could happen. And like, I don't know what it's, it's a bummer to what you were saying earlier, like welcome to the enough of the fucking, I know it's Star Wars nostalgia cameos. I think like I, as you, as you know, I, I, I do genuinely like love those. Like when, when Luke showed up at the end of Mando, I loved it. When Cadby showed up, I loved it. When we see,

what Kanan's experience was during Order 66 because like all of those moments heightened to the thing we were already watching and filled in something about like a timeline for a crucial figure when it's just like, oh my God, you're going to see the back of Yoda's head and like get really hyped because it's Yoda.

I just don't get the gain of a thing, but we actually maybe risk a like confounding element entering the brew. Then it doesn't, it doesn't work as well for me. So Leah being in the other one show is just like beyond the pale is like, well, I don't remember when I talked about OB too, though.

That was great. All right. Great stuff. A very romantic ending, as we've already discussed. We've already talked about this. They held hands over Saul's blade lightsaber. I loved it. We'll get some sex scenes in season two. Hold. Pause. I'm going to come back to that. Oh, eat your heart out, Mr. Darcy. We got a lot of emails from fans of the Joe Wright Pride and Prejudice series.

in which famously Matthew McFadden's Mr. Darcy flexes his hand in ecstasy having helped Lizzie into the carriage and this has just become this like moment for people who love that shit uh

Shout out, I'm a Colin Firth loyalist, so it could be me. But yeah, gentle grazes of hands can mean a lot of things to a lot of people. This is what Leslie says about Plague is Here, not using Plague is Here at the end, right? And to your point about this idea of Rogue One and doomed, right? Even though Osha and the Stranger are standing there sort of looking out at the sunset, ready to conquer the world, the tragedy is we know they don't.

We know there can only be two. We know Plagueis is there. We know that these two are doomed in some way. So to me, it's a bittersweet tragedy, this foreboding ending. That's because I know about the Sith lineage and all these other things, whereas I think a different subset of the audience could be like, they're married. Oh, man. Our listener, Ryan, to your question, our listener, Ryan, sent us a little bit of fanfic. You have my attention. Title, I'm not reading the fanfic. I'm just reading the intro and then sort of like the premise.

Uh, the title is Darth Plagueis would very much like to be excluded from this narrative. Summary. The tale of the long-suffering Darth Plagueis who has to babysit some very horny kids in his old age. Notes. Everyone making jokes about Darth Plagueis being traumatized by the Oshamir non-stop fucking. I hear you when I offer my small tribute.

So thank you to Ryan and thank you to the AO3 user, The Fudge. She wrote this. I haven't read it. I just read the premise and I thought that was really funny. But yes, do you think there will be much as I said with Bela and Jace on Dragonstone? Should there be more fucking on this island? And should we get to see it in season two? I'd say so. I mean, there's a hot tub in the cave. Come on.

The Sith, the state of the Sith in season two, this is what Leslie says to IndieWire. They're not running the First Order. They're not running the Empire. They're not the Chancellor of the Senate. They're hiding out. The Sith in this time are fighting for survival. So, season two. Our listener Deborah suggests, just Kyra and Osha hotly roaming the galaxy as sexy Grey Force users fighting both Jedi and Sith like a combination of Kung Fu and the Avengers. Do you approve, Mallory?

It sounds great. I don't know if Chimera seems interested in being a gray force user. But that's the thing. Leslie has been very clear where she's like, I'm not trying to do the Kylo and Rey, I can fix him storyline. That's not what I'm trying to do. And I agree. I don't want that. I don't want the idea of Osha's pulling Chimera to the light. But I like this idea because...

survivors like if they extricate themselves from the Sith and just do their own thing that is more gray sided than it is dark sided but does allow for that freedom which is high on uh Chimera's list to-do list and passion and emotion but you don't have to be tied up with all the like Sithy shit and you you know what I mean like okay I've fallen into that trap haven't I it's something I do I understand yeah

This is what our listener Rachel wrote. This is the last email I'm going to read. I wish we had more exploration of the light side of the Force that is separate from the Jedi, who, after all, are child-kidnapping space cops. An exploration that relishes in our humanity, that doesn't separate children from their families, in the name of non-attachment, that values desire and joy as much as it values helping others grow and thrive. I'm glad the Acolyte has shown some of the problems of the Jedi, especially how impossible it is for a person to really impartially interpret the Force.

but it hasn't satisfied my desire for something better. While I don't really like Freud or his theories, I do think they're helpful when thinking about Star Wars. In many ways, the Sith are what Freud calls the id, pure desire for sex, power, violence, death. The Jedi, on the other hand, are the superego, moral, bureaucratic, rules following. Where is the depiction of the ego balancing the two? Can a person just be a good person in the Star Wars universe?

I mean, I do think to the good person point, I guess that's more like subjective, but I do think we've gotten dotted across the canon some portrayals of Grey Jedi. And they're characters we love. Yes. Qui-Gon is a shared favorite because he... Sol certainly, I think, fits that mold. We see how that goes wrong for him. Both of them.

That's the problem is like, I don't know that it's been presented as like, this isn't a thing you can be and survive. This was my lament when we saw a couple of pods ago, like when we saw where this was trending for Soul. I'm like, I really wanted the guy who was like pounding the table because he can't control his emotion to like win. That would have been really, I think, subversive in a Star Wars story and really cool. A character like Ryle Averos, who was...

Dooku's former apprentice who I've talked about before and Ben has talked about before and chatting a bit about the great Claudia Grey book, Master and Apprentice. Like, he's a very grey Jedi. Right.

loves to fuck. Like there are characters, I think Lindbergh mentioned maybe when he came on to do some of the High Republic previewing that like there are a lot of characters in the High Republic who are having sex. Yeah. The High Republic wasn't much for your time. That we are tightening the grip of bureaucracy and rules and constrictions on the Jedi as we move into their doom, their end. And that's an interesting thing to track. I guess here's what I'll say. Here's a fond wish for season two.

I'm going to really try to avoid my tendency of like trying to think of dark siders as people that I can redeem and say, what if instead it's more like Dexter where it's like the serial killer who's killing serial killers for you. And I'm not here to say Dexter's a good guy cause he's not, but he's also like, you know, fighting some things. And I mean, maybe that's fighting the bureaucracy of the Jedi, which, you know, is, is worth battling.

I do think the moment where

the stranger was like, well, you would call me a Sith. Right, exactly. Feels very intentional. I just want those kids to get a... They're not kids. They're adults. And he's very old. But I want those crazy kids to get away from Plagueis. That's the point. Like, mostly I just don't want them anywhere near Plagueis. Leslie has just already said they're doomed. And I'm like, but maybe they can go... But they're doomed eventually. We're all doomed.

We'll do it eventually. Maybe they can go to the outer, outer, outer rim and just be, you know, evil but in a fun way. I don't know. Anything else you want to say about the Acolyte? I think we, I mean, I think we really established that we're like, this season had a lot of problems with some very, very strong, some strong, some higher highs than a lot of the other Star Wars TV that we've gotten have had. Like, I walked out of this with like,

It's not just about Chimera's arms. It's about this figure and what he represents in the world of Star Wars that we haven't gotten to spend as much time with. It's about the potential for the future, potential for this firmly anchored Sith point of view that we were sort of promised. And these big ideas that they have in their mind. And if we could just sort of

you know, trim around the things that aren't working and never bring more mother coral back into the conversation. Then like I do, I, I do five for coral, not fucking invited. Sorry, coral. Sorry, coral. Yeah, I I'm with you, man. This is like the cave is vast and there's a rich cortosis vein right there and we see it and we know how potent it is. And hopefully in season two, we can mine it.

Can't wait. All right. Well, that does it for our coverage of the Acolyte. Acolyte. You had to do it. I love you. Perfect.

I was like, I was actually ready for you to do it. Cause you had like rolled over some, I was ready for you to do it like 20 times, but you hit it right when you needed to. And it was a beautiful, I'm banking on that's how that's, that's my, my show for season two. Okay. Yeah. Well, thank you. Mallory ribbon. You're forever. I would forever grasp a lightsaber with you and stare off into the sunset. Um,

Thank you to Steve Allman for, you know, being in a cave somewhere behind us, creepily snooping around the corner and making sure we sound great. Thank you to our Juna Rangel pal for all everything he's doing constantly. It's just I wouldn't I would shudder to think of his to do list because he's constantly texting me. He's like, what about this other thing? And I know that I'm only one of a million people that he is wrangling at any given time. So thank you to our Juna. Thank you to.

It was his birthday yesterday. Uh, Joey at dinner on, uh, on, on the social work for this, uh, get better John Richter and we will see you all for talk to thrones on Sunday night. Bye. Bye.