'The Last of Us' Season 2, Episode 3 Deep Dive
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Welcome back to House of R. I'm Joanna Robinson, and that is Mallory Rubin. And we are here today to talk to you about The Last of Us Season 2, Episode 3. We're really excited. We have so much to say, so we're going to sort of zoom through the stuff we do at the top really quickly because we have a lot to get to. Mallory Rubin. Yes, ma'am. I don't know if you know this, but over on The Ringiverse, there is a lot going on.

on. We are all doing Last of Us reactions. The Midnight Boys pew pew are doing it Sunday nights. We've got it on Mondays. Button Mash will hit it later in the week. There's a lot going on over there. Button Mash also has another episode this week. We've got our Rigorous Recommends for April this week. There's Andor for the Midnight

boys there's and or from us there's thunderbolts from the midnight boys there's thunderbolts from us we are truly blessed and living in a content utopia and it's all good knock on wood we haven't seen thunderbolts yet but we believe it's going to be good so mallory yeah that's so much how can folks keep track of everything that's going on

Thanks for asking. Here's what I would recommend. It's simple. Follow the pods. Follow House of R. Follow Ringiverse. Follow the Prestige TV podcast on Spotify or wherever you get your podcasts. You can watch full video episodes of House of R and the Midnight Boys. Pew, pew.

on Spotify or the Ringerverse YouTube channel. So subscribe to that as well. You can get all of our takes on the various releases that Joe just mentioned. You can get our takes on turkey versus chicken, on corn, on whether you should consider crossing open country and chucks. You can find it all there. And then while you're at it, you're at your computer, your phone's in your hand. Follow the Ringerverse on the social media platform of your choosing, whatever that might be. Who are we to tell you what that might be? And then...

Send us your emails because the inbox is open. Always. Hobbitsanddragons at gmail.com. Great Last of Us emails from the bad babies as always. Keep those coming. Send us your Andor emails. Send us your Thunderbolt emails. Oh, yeah. I mean, we want those as well, obviously. We are always here to talk about Bucky Barnes. Let me promise you that. Okay.

Great stuff. Spoiler warning. Yes. It's complicated with The Last of Us. Let me lay it out for you really quickly. Malibu is almost done. I'm going to say that. Almost on two-thirds at least through the game. Maybe even three-quarters. She is burning through that game, and I'm really proud of her. I've done a watch-through on YouTube, and so we have game knowledge. We're going to reserve that for a spoiler section. You will hear...

A mighty impressive spoiler warning before we get to the spoiler section at the end of the pod. So that is where all the spoilers for The Last of Us game and any plot we think or know is coming going forward. But we never know because with this adaptation, they make some wild choices. So we will talk about that in a spoiler section. The rest is going to be informed by game knowledge, but not spoiled by game knowledge. And that is what we are doing on this particular podcast.

Season 2, Episode 3, The Path, directed by Peter Hoare, written by Craig Mazin, as most of the episodes are this season. Peter Hoare, a

A Doctor Who director. That's right. He directed A Good Man Goes to War, a very famous Matt Smith Doctor Who episode, among other things. Yeah. And also It's a Sin. Love. We are obliged every time we mention it to say how much we loved It's a Sin, a tremendous British miniseries. Love. And then, of course, directed? Long, long time.

Long, long time last season. Also episode three and a favorite of ours and many Last of Us TV viewers. So fun to be back for another episode three. They're like, we need to make them cry. Let's bring in Peter. Exactly. Let's get the tears ready. The path, as the episode name, like with a tagline for this season. Yeah. Every path has a price. So to get that right here in the episode title at this pivotal moment of decisions and looming choices and what direction will we go in, yeah.

fitting they're being intriguingly cagey with their episode titles this season it's like it's a it's like a house of the dragon situation where even if you have screeners you don't know what the episode title is until the night of and then you're like oh it's the path how exciting okay

A tiny little mailbag moment and then we'll have email sprinkled throughout our breakdown of the episode. I just want to say really quickly, Caitlin wrote in to ask if we're going to be covering Doctor Who, the new season of Doctor Who on here. We have not talked about the Shudigatwa era of Doctor Who after spending all that time watching Doctor Who. That is something that people have questions about. Often, Doctor

Often Doctor Who drops in the middle of these like content Armageddon. So it's hard to do. I will say, though, a bad baby reached out to me. It was like, you're really, really going to watch this week's episode. And I did. And it is a sequel to I mean, I saw the first Shibigawa season. I had not watched the first couple. Anyway, I watched this week. This week was a banger. This week is a sequel to.

one of my favorite episodes of Doctor Who. It was like a sneaky sequel to an early era. So thank you for flagging me. Really glad I watched it. It was quite good. Had a great time with it. Intriguing. Doctor Who. Okay. Exciting. I'm excited to catch up. And then also we got one million emails. Yes.

With the subject line, quote, milky syringe. I'm telling you, we got so many emails. I would just like open up the Hobbits and Dragons inbox and it would just say milky syringe. Anyway, I asked for this last week. I was going to say, this is an active conversation being cultivated with the bad babies. I did this to myself. I'm just saying it's as if I opened up a million emails that said crevice or something like that. I was just like, this is terrible. Anyway.

Here's the consensus from the bad babies, both medical professionals and non. The item in the syringe, the contents of the syringe that was given to Dina in season two, episode two, is probably propofol, which is...

not a fun fact, but a fact, the drug that Michael Jackson overdosed and died from and is a milky white short-acting IV sedative. And all the medical professions were like, this is actually great detail, a really, really good detail. My question, I guess, and we have another question about sourcing in the apocalypse later in this outline, but my question is, how much propofol is left in

You know, like I always think about this in terms of like there are things you can continue to manufacture inside of the mushroom apocalypse. And then there are things that feel, you know, so how how precious was this syringe that they use on Dina? You know, I mean, we know from season one, the whole federal model was bullets and pills, pills and bullets. Didn't hear anything about milky syringes. I didn't hear anything about milky syringes. So here we go.

I don't know how, don't email me anything more about propofol. That's thank you. Thank you very much. You're the best. This is very reminiscent to me of the like incredibly detailed follow-up on dislocated knees during the yellow jackets run. So I would love the expert bad babies who read into us. Okay. Before we get into our deep dive of the episode, anything else you want to mention Mallory?

Just how thrilled I am to be back with you yet again, talking about The Last of Us. Can't wait to talk about this fascinating episode. I mean, I guess we should just say at the top, other than the one brief glimpse from Ellie's eyes.

No Abby. Like this was a question that we had, including seeing the preview at the end of episode two for episode three that kind of ended on this utterance of Abby's name and a glimpse of Abby's face. So what does this portend for when Abby will return and how voluminously Abby will be featured from here? And that's on my mind. Yeah. After this episode. Did you like this episode of Television Mallory? Yeah.

I did, quite a bit. Yeah, I think that these are really hard stretches of story to pull off, not only after a battle, but after a loss. And I think so often as...

TV viewers in the like peak TV era, the Thrones era in particular, the zeitgeist monoculture, is it dead or is there still a last remnant of it left era? Like, especially after a battle, I think we're very inclined to expect celebration, you know? Like we survived, we made it through, we mourn our dead, but then we celebrate the fact that we're still here. And part of that is the product of the way that time moved across this episode because of Ellie's injury. Yeah.

And part of that is because there is so little joy to be had. And that was so stark to me tonally. I thought this was like, you know, on the adapt, we'll talk as we go, as we always do about some of the adaptive changes, some of which we'll sprinkle throughout, some of which we'll save for the spoiler section, but just generally speaking, and Craig Mazin and Neil Druckmann talked about this a lot on both the inside of the episode and then in more detail on the official pod. This just,

period lingering in this moment is the kind of thing that an adaptation affords you the opportunity to do, to linger in that loss, to linger in that grief, to linger in the question of what it means to be without this person who defined your life and then what will you do next? And so I thought just in terms of like the structure of the season and the nature of adaptation, this was a smart place to spend a little bit more time than we and Ellie are able to do in the game. How about you?

Yeah, no, I think you really accurately identify this as sort of a tough, almost, because we hit the road by the end of the episode. And so then we're on to a new adventure. And so we go from big battle-y episode where there's a massive death to this...

though still eventful, you know, mourning period of an episode. And then, so in terms of like the cadence of this, it's similar to Long, Long Time, which is let's press pause and meditate in a moment that, you know, is different from perhaps the rest of the season will be. So I'm glad that they have this. I think, yeah,

Yes. The way that Neil articulated it was that because he said the game is action-oriented. And this is such a conversation around season one is like how much action is in this adaptation. Some people were promoting there wasn't enough action. And so is there more action in season two? I think Craig and Neil have intimated that there will be like a skosh more action in this season, but...

In order for the action to have impact, as we always say, you have to be emotionally invested in the characters. And emotional investment comes with moments like these where we are marinating in their emotionality. Yeah, exactly. And I don't think – obviously, we did a three-hour podcast last week working through our –

Yeah. And I loved talking about the second episode of the season with you so much. I thought about it like all week. It was really just a genuine highlight to get to share that with you and talk about it with you. And like, I don't think even after doing a three-hour pod...

We can—and five pods across the network. Like, I don't think we can overstate the magnitude of the first episode without Joel. Like, this is just a huge moment of transition for Ellie and for Tommy and for us as viewers and for the world of the story. And so—

That idea of action and like an active pursuit, I think taking the time to feel Joel's presence still through the keenness of his absence is,

is just so appropriate and necessary. And I'm like, I don't mean to be too intense and weird about it, but kind of grateful for it. Like, I felt like it was necessary to allow us to process alongside the characters before we hit the road. And that's something that Craig really articulated, that he was like, hopeful that this would be helpful for people who are mourning this character that they lost at

At the end when there's like the moment where Ellie goes to visit Joel's grave, he's like, I threw a little funeral for all of us, you know, like sort of thing. And I think it's interesting to think about the shape of Joel, the Joel-shaped grave.

sort of part of this episode where, you know, we'll have Tommy and Ellie discuss, like, what was Joel actually like? What are the totems of Joel? The watch, the gun, the jacket, what do they represent? The smell of Joel, the coffee beans. If there were, like, a Buckdell test for mentioning Joel, every scene in this episode pretty much bails it because we're all always talking about Joel, quite obviously. So, yeah.

Yeah, I really liked this episode and I love talking about this show with you so much. Also, Andor, I'm just like, I'm just so grateful that we're covering. I like after we spent so long talking about Andor, I also just like cornered a bunch of people I know in my real life to be like, let's talk about the idea of rebellion or complacency or like whatever it is. And I was like, you're watching Andor? No. Okay, well, let me explain it to you. It's just, it's, we're having a great time. Okay, let's go now to our deep dive.

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So I mentioned last week that I was a little, I'm sorry, are you done with your, I didn't want to, I did not want to interrupt the dance break. No, but you can continue if you want. I was trying to cut you short. Okay. I feel a lot of like keen pain right here. I don't know. What's this called? Is this a- Terpesius? Perhaps. I'll take your word for it. Okay. I don't know. Maybe. All right. So we, I was talking about last week how I felt like weirdly shocked that there wasn't a cold open, especially I think because the Abby dream could have been,

easily a cold open last week and they just like opted not but here we get a cold open um which is it's nightfall we've got the burning charred remains of jackson did you think they look delicious all those mushrooms all those mushroom infected charred and ready for a nosh they like had the delicious like sizzle that the bloater did last week um

But I'm sure it smells great on Main Street. Roasted mushrooms? Yum. Okay. Wonderful. Also, charred remains. Not great. Okay. No. Never knew Bannon could smell so good, you know? Joel's watch is like one of the first things we see. So we know exactly who's lying on this table. We've got a random Jackson resident is taking over the duty of washing the body. Yeah. But the room is filled with this fiery glow. And I want to identify throughout this whole episode, we're in this...

like protracted golden hour space. There are many, many, many scenes that are even surprising ones. You would not think are sort of suffused with this golden glow, which if you think back to long, long time was very much the aesthetic of that episode too. But I was just wondering if it was meant to denote like, is this the sunset of something or is this the dawn of something else? I'm not sure which feels better to me. Great. That's a great question. Yeah. Um,

Did you, was your, you know, as you were perusing the buffet on the, on main street, Mallory, um,

Was your sense that those were all infected and they had cleared all the non-infected bodies inside? Yeah, I took it as like the citizens of Jackson Hole have been brought inside and cleaned and put on tables and covered and loved ones like Tommy will be making their way through to see and visit their dead. And that the infected are piled up in a heap and buffet of charred mushroom,

remains tough and if you get that seems appropriate no stone for you if you get bit i guess so um i can't the no stone it's too soon um the score here was also you know you mentioned the light but the score was also just like so sorrowful it's just beautiful and so evocative and gorgeous and uh

you guys, you and Rob had an incredible interview with Gustavo, this brilliant composer. So if anybody has not checked that out from, uh, last week's episode two pod do so. It was just incredible to hear, uh, about the creative process. He's a delightful human being. Gustavo. Uh, yeah. So we talked to Gustavo last week, this week, actually right at this very moment, Rob is talking to Gabriel Luna who plays Tommy. So we'll have an interview with Tommy on the podcast later this week. Um,

Um, so shout out Rob for doing that while I'm doing this. Uh, we love to be a team, but, um,

Tommy comes in here and he already knows, so we didn't get to see the moment that he finds out. Right. But we see this moment instead. And in the inside of the episode, Gabriel Luna described this as a one-man wake, which I thought was absolutely beautiful. Yeah. I loved this. I was struck thinking about this ritual of washing the body, and I was sort of... I tried to...

I'm by no means an expert, hobbitsanddragons.gmail.com if you are, but I was just sort of checking in on the ritual of washing the body. It is a consistent ritual across so many cultures and so many religions. Outside of religion, I was reading this interesting article from this woman who is like an end-of-life person.

You know, care worker. And she was talking about she offers this sort of to family if she's doing hospice care. She offers this to family members. She can. Saying, quote, it could be a way of saying goodbye through our hands and our tears. Also, guilt can come out through busy fingers. I was just like, wow, that's...

Incredible to me. And then it's also, yeah, it's a religious ritual often through many, many, many different religions, certainly not exclusive to, but in the practice of Judaism, here's the quote, the last ritual performed before burial is to wash and purify the body with water, dress it in white garment ensemble, place the body in the coffin and seal it. The idea behind the washing and purification of the body is to return it in good and holy condition after its use by the person who inhabited it.

So can I just say really quickly, I just love this idea for whatever it means for Tommy. Right. This idea of returning Joel to maybe almost like his pre-apocalyptic, you know, give Sarah my love to Sarah. This is Sarah's dad preparing Sarah's dad to go see Sarah and wash away all the horrible things that happened in the intervening years. This is something I was thinking about.

I really loved this opening visual and just opening emotional note for the episode. And, you know, I think...

It primes us certainly for this aspect of the rest of the episode, which is like the pan out and pan in, right? You have, like when we pan back and see how many of those tables have people on them, we are confronted, of course, with something that we will be confronted with in the council meeting, et cetera, which is how vast the loss was. But when we zoom in and we see that watch, this is like for us what –

a version of what Sarah's death was for Joel, right? It's like a time stopper. And the way that the episode navigates that...

that dissidence that you might carry, like acknowledging that there are so many other people and how important that is to confront for Ellie, for us, that for all of those other families, like the person they lost was their Joel. Like your pain is not unique, but it can feel that way to you. I thought the episode really brilliantly navigated that way from the first visual. I also thought

Hit fast forward 15 seconds if you don't want to hear a Game of Thrones spoiler from quite a number of years ago. But...

I thought that like, I'm not saying this was intentional. There's just an aspect of like, when you see somebody washing a dead body on Sunday night, HBO genre monoculture TV, I think like probably a lot of viewers were thinking of John. And so like, even though the rational part of your mind knows that Joel is gone and there's nothing that's going to change that, there's like a little tiny part of you inside that's like,

Well, could something change that? I'm not actually saying to be clear that I thought Joel was going to be resurrected. I just think there's like this connected universe that we're playing in on the Sunday night HBO sandbox that like I wonder how many people were thinking of John's wounds being washed as well. I thought that was really interesting. This performance.

Like this moment and this performance? Yeah. The pullback of the sheet and looking at Joel's battered face. Right. And his facial reaction to that. He wasn't just killed. He was the savagery. Yeah. The carnage. Brutalized. Yes. And the look on Tommy's face. I think this is the

the best performance we've seen from this actor, which is not a knock on anything else he's done. It's just like a new level of something that we've seen from him. I agree. I love it. And I love like thinking back to, you know, how can we not then when he says, give my, give Sarah my love, like think back to the beginning of the show. And we watched the three of them together. And, you know, then when Joel and Tommy are reunited in Jackson in season one and

Joel learns that Tommy's going to be a father, a moment that, you know, we've talked about many times. But, like, one of the things that Tommy said to Joel in that moment was, you know, just because life stopped for you doesn't mean it has to stop for me. And, like, Tommy must be thinking about that, seeing the watch, thinking about that loss, like, thinking about what losing Sarah did to Joel, which, of course, will be on his mind when he's talking, Tommy is talking to Ellie later about the way that loss shaped Joel, what it did to him. And, like...

The other thing that I was thinking about from that great season one, episode six series of exchanges between Tommy and Joel was when they were talking about, like, the bad things that they used to do. And, you know, Tommy said, like, I don't judge you for it. We survived the only way we knew how, but there were other ways we just weren't any good at them.

Tommy being this person who knew what Joel's limits were and then found a way to build a different life for himself and is carrying all of that knowledge and awareness about himself and about his brother with him as he now navigates this stretch of life without him. I just thought this opening scene, which was very brief, but...

packed so much history between the characters so effectively for us. And we are obviously like, in some ways, I think guilty of the same sin that Ellie is, which is like, we're really thinking about Ellie a lot. And so for Tommy to be at the beginning of this episode and then Tommy later to be like, I don't act like I didn't know my own brother. He's my brother, right? Yeah, it was just great. That's something that I loved that they talked about inside of this moment where it's like, Sarah is so present in Tommy's mind because the us for him is,

Yeah. The last of us for him is the last of my, like there were Sarah and Tommy and Joel when we started. And now there's just Tommy is something that the showrunner said. But this idea of like, even before there was Sarah, it was Tommy and Joel. And they were the us for so long in their lives. Yeah.

And so, yeah, honoring what this means for Tom, what this loss means for Tommy outside of what this loss means for Ellie, I think is really important. I like that he had this solo moment. I like, you know, that they, they said originally there was a lot more talking and they just stripped it out and made it really simple and really emotional. And I, I just absolutely love this and give Sarah my love, which really upset me.

Neil was, Neil, Neil Druckmann was saying, um, on the official pod that like, give Sarah my love as a solace for the audience as much as anything else, because it's like, you get to then think of Joel, however you, whatever you believe religiously or whatever you believe in an afterlife, you, there's the possibility that Joel is in a peaceful place here. If that's something you believe in, that is a solace that this moment can offer you. So, yeah. Okay. Um,

we then go from, from the peaceful calm of a room of dead bodies to the hospital with the injured, uh, and the dead and the dying, um, and a baby screaming. There's new life. Even as life is ending in Jackson. I thought that was really interesting to think about it as this episode is so much to do with like spring and renewal and like, you know, Jackson coming back to life after all of this. Um, but as, as you know, Craig has said all over the place, um,

Ellie is still in that not for Ellie Ellie is still in that room right so there is no coming back to life but I just thought this like yeah we see Ellie you know she's got the bandage and the tube and all of that but like Bella's performance oh my god of this moment of sheer horror yeah

which is even more of a reaction than we saw last week. And that idea that the trauma for her as she is just reliving it is...

Maybe even more painful because there's no more confusion or hope or anything like that, that it might go differently. It's just like, it's done. This is it. And you were forever, you know, or not stuck in this place. I just thought this was stunning. I agree. I thought this was so upsetting and so harrowing. And the performance was incredible. Like this just glimpse and snapshot of,

And ability to encapsulate in an instant what it means for Ellie to wake to a world without Joel. Like, to not be able to deny it. To have to face it and confront it and then replay his death and face his absence. That last of them moment for her, you know, we talked...

last week about that because the truth is I would just be more scared moment when Ellie said that to Joel in Jackson in season one. And I thought that it was so appropriate for this to not just be despair, obviously grief, grief moves in stages. And we will see that for Ellie, not only inside of this episode, but, you know, presumably in the larger arc of her, of her journey, but,

This is just unvarnished fear. This is being more scared, right? This is like, there's no pause to process and collect and plan that will, with the aid of Dina, come later, the planning part. This is just, what does it mean to,

that Joel is not a part of my life anymore. But I go forward. Her gray sphere being alone, which she isn't because Dina and Tommy and Jesse are offering her, you know, comfort and community here. But like, you know, if it's not Joel, does it even register for Ellie? And then here's surprisingly, because given everything else that happens in this episode, here is the worst thing that The Last of Us does.

Did to me this week. Yeah. Yeah. When we get to the opening credits, I was actually one. It was a question I had in my mind as the credit starts, because traditionally the credits end with two spory mushroomy figures turning into Joel and Ellie, the us of the show.

And I was like, oh, is it still going to be that or is it just going to be Ellie? And then it was just Ellie and I wanted to die. I thought it was so sad, so good and so sad that it's just Ellie now alone. I know. So funny.

In the opening credits. Jesus. This is a real, like, help hold me moment when you see this. It's just... They could have done a Dina mushroom, but they didn't. They just did Ellie all alone, and that's just how she feels. It could have been no one. It could have... Right, exactly. It could have been all of Jackson, but, like, to that point that you were just making, does Ellie have these other people with her? Yeah. You know, later she'll have that great moment with Dina where, you know, Dina's like, you could have just asked, and Ellie's like... I didn't know that. I didn't... Yeah, I didn't know that. And so part of Ellie's journey will be coming to...

understand that and recognize it when that companionship and community is around her in different forms. But like this felt as deeply upsetting as it was incredibly appropriate to me that this visual would just be a solitary figure because Ellie feels like

That sense of mooring and belonging and the person who was always there. You know, thinking back to like what she said to Jesse last week. It's like, I know, you know, like our shit seemed complicated. It probably seemed really bad, but like we're us. It's Joel and it's me. And that's always going to be. Yeah, it's always going to be.

And like emotionally that remains true, but literally Joel is gone. What does it mean then to feel like you are alone in the world, a world like this? But I also like thinking about that idea that like, that's not, she has the opportunity here and going forward. Yes. And this is something we can track to see if she can reorient herself around a new us. Yes. But as she stated last week, it's Joel and Ellie and that's it. Right.

So will she be able to think of it as Ellie and Dina or Ellie and Tommy or Ellie and Jesse or all of them together in community or Ellie and Jackson? You know, like, is there opportunity for an Ellie? Scott, the corn guy. Boring Scott as he's listed in the credits. So rude. Let me say, thank God for fucking boring Scott because that injection of levity in this incredibly somber episode was a real boon. I needed it.

Thank you, Scott. Thank you, Boring Scott. Okay, three months later. Yeah! Time has passed and it is spring now, which is a big adaptive change from the game. And the game, when we pick up with Ellie after Joel's death, she's still freshly bruised. So it is like, you know...

really quickly after the incident that Ellie makes her decision to leave Jackson and go on this journey. So it's an impulsive, as is often the case with Ellie move. And so Craig and Neil have talked about why they need this change. And there's like, it actually works on a number of, of levels, but like maybe before or after having heard some of their thoughts on why they did this, Mallory, like how did, how did it strike you?

I come down pro. I think you know, and many of the bad babies know me well enough at this point to know that I, like even, there's a three-month time jump in season one when they're making their way to Jackson. And even then, after Sam and Henry, I was like, I'm not really prepared to miss a single moment with these characters. And then obviously we, you know, we start this season with a considerable time jump. I think there's a part of me always that is inclined when I am this attached to Jackson

to these characters to, like, not want to miss a moment, you know, to see the town bury Joel, et cetera. But...

I think that structurally, just in a kind of macro-mechanical sense, how the story is stitched together, this was really savvy. I think putting Ellie in a position where she needed to heal and needed to take a beat, and then also allow the town to simultaneously move forward, but be in a position where Carlisle and Rachel and others are standing up at the council and saying, like,

What about everybody else? What about all of the people we're still mourning and all of the things we're still trying to rebuild? Like, simultaneously not being in the instant kind of, like, responsive, reflexive moment where your rage guides you and you are more guided here by still your anger, but also just your sense of deeply rooted mourning. And then to see, like, nobody else has moved on either yet, and that is part of the point, but they're trying. They're picking up the mallet and they're banging the wooden beam, right? They're rebuilding. They're rebuilding.

Like, I don't know. I actually would slightly push back on that. And I would say that they have moved on. I will just say...

If the end goal is 10 steps away and they're five steps down the road, not moved on, but moving on. And then Ellie's still at home base, right? For sure. And like part of that is because she's not talking to anybody about this the way that other people are. She's not in the community. Yeah. Yeah. I think this is on my mind in general, I guess, with the show. I know we'll talk about this in some other some other aspects of the story and character sets later. But like.

One of the ways that I think about the show, this is not specific to Last of Us, but I think it's very keen for me with Last of Us, is like it's not an either or an or. It's not a like one side did it exactly right and one didn't. It's like there's all this like nuance right in between. So I think there are, in this case, there could be parallels and also then distinctions. And the fact that there's maybe a parallel circumstance, it makes actually those distinctions feel more stark. I really agree. I really agree. I liked the time gap, I think. Specifically in terms of like

Dina and Ellie, and they talked about this, this idea that like giving Dina this relationship with Joel, meaning that she's leaving town because of her love of Joel, but she is doing it differently the way that Ellie is doing it. Now, again, I do think that there is a huge difference whether Ellie would have allowed herself to have been inside of the community in those past three months, or if she would locked herself away in her room. I mean, she actually, she would have just left town, but like, you know, if, if she still had those three months,

not sort of locked up in a hospital, was able to be in community, would she have been able to get to this space of we have to rebuild, we have to move on, we have to grow because we are in community with each other? And we'll talk about what that means later on. But to encounter that,

Tommy and Jesse as part of this rebuilding us effort. And to know that Tommy who lost his brother has been, of course he also has his other us with it, which is Maria and their kiddo. Like he had already much to Joel's dismay formed another us. But he's also just like digging into his role inside of this community. And there is the, we, we find them,

Welding metal to the wall. And I just want to say, why was that not already there, guys? I don't know. I mean, baffling. Why we thought wood would be, flammable wood would be our best bet against the outside world. Years and years and years and years went into building Jackson. Yeah. But...

Not enough metal on the fence, as discussed last week. Very odd. What do you think? Glad we're putting it there now. How do you feel, and I hope you feel great about it, about the sort of episode-long comp between Jesse and our guy Steve Rogers? Good old Captain Wyoming is here. Great stuff. And Tommy is doing his best to hammer a...

a beam into the ground. But Jesse's like, step aside. Yeah. Steve Rogers is here. I loved this capture. Wyoming was so funny. I thought that was really great. And I loved the little smirk on Tommy's face as he watched Jesse swing that mallet and work.

Because it felt like, I mean, Tommy is so deeply entrenched in his role in the community still, so I don't want to overstate it, but it felt like a little bit of, you know, we learned that Jesse is on the council now. Like, there's this kind of passing of the torch and this real generational aspect to what is unfolding here. And the reason that's interesting to me is less inside of the Jesse-Tommy relationship and more, once again,

and Joel because Tommy was the little brother. Like, he was the kid, the fuck-up, right? We talked about that a lot in season one. And he's the old guard now. Like, with Joel, you described Joel beautifully in the first episode of this season as, like, the elder, you know, the glasses on and the graying of the hair and just the role in the community. And, like,

Sometimes the roles that you inhabit in a group and in a society are because of the function that you provide or the relationships that you forge. And some of it is the space you have to fill when someone else is gone. And the episode, the show is always just very deft in the shorthand of like a little look, a little moment, a little shift in the dynamic. What might it signal about the larger whole? So I thought this was really great. Captain Wyoming iconic. I love it.

I love that. That makes me think of the conversations we had not to once again, go back to Marvel. Maybe I'm just really excited for a Thunderbolt screening tonight, but like talking about Loki without Thor, like what can Loki be without Thor inside of his own show? Loki, like, and, and the way in which, or without Odin, like the way in which you are in these roles, because family has defined you that way. And can you find a different role for yourself outside of the shadow of your family? And so Tommy, well,

sort of slightly cutting off communication with Joel and finding himself in Jackson in season one was something that Joel really bumped against. Yeah. But like once Joel's in Jackson, Tommy is then again, the younger, you know, the husband to Maria town elder and a younger brother to Joel, a town elder and a town elder in his own right, obviously general general Tommy we saw in last week's episode. But, um,

without his brother, yeah, he's, he's the elder. He is a father, you know, he's the paternal one inside of this. So, um, I think that's fascinating. Um,

We did get a really long email from a listener about hair stuff. She sent it actually before this episode. And then she sent a follow-up when Ellie is in the hospital. Her hair is just like noticeably longer. But basically our listener was quite salty about how well-groomed everyone is this season versus last season. And she's like, I understand we're in civilization versus on the road. But she's just like...

She's like, and I understand that Catherine O'Hara is not going to show up with gray hair. She's going to have her perfect baby lights, blonde hair and stuff like that. She was just like, she's like, I miss the natural frizzy curly hair, the realities of the apocalypse. And she extrapolated that further. But I was thinking of her when Ellie showed up with her like,

darker, like beautiful Mallory Rubin-esque waterfall of hair. I didn't see as much gray as I thought. It's funny. I thought I really, I did really notice the hospital hair as well. I didn't think of it in those terms. I was almost thinking of it like

Okay, well, part of it is signaling that she's getting ready, right? Ready to reenter the world. And part of it, I was thinking of Survivor and how they always end up with gorgeous hair after the oils have run their process. Oh, yeah. And they go from looking filthy to just astonishing. So, yeah, there you go. You can always count on the bad babies. This will not be the last time I mention Survivor. I have some thoughts on how they read the votes. Yeah.

Okay. Then we get this moment with Gail and Ellie, which Craig described as like a fistfight with words and wiles, which I love. And this is just like Catherine O'Hara. Catherine O'Hara in this episode is wonderful. She's got two banger scenes. I do have a question about how much Catherine O'Hara was actually on set of this show. Do you share my question about that? It doesn't matter, but I just have a question about it. I...

I love that you've been tracking this the whole way. You know, obviously the New Jersey celebration cutaway was where you really started to go on. Was this person on set? TM with Joanna Robinson. TM. You know, my favorite version of this I've mentioned before is that for the final season of Ballers, they like,

very clearly had The Rock for a day and a half. And that's why basically every scene is filmed literally in an airline hangar. They're just like, he gave fluid. Let's just film it here. That's amazing. So it can't quite measure up to that, but it will be on my mind now that you have drawn my attention to it. I will be clocking it moving forward. Your call out later that like, okay, we're not mingling with our fellows in the bleachers. Yeah.

At the baseball game? That was very funny. Why are we out in the field, in the middle of the field of the baseball game? Because we want to get drunk, maybe? Sure, fine. But then she's like up in the galley. I mean, so watching the inside episode, they do have a cutaway to her. But once again, it really feels like they could have been filmed on a different day entirely. Like she's just up in the galley, not in the wide shot in the galley I looked. So... Great stuff. I hope that Catherine O'Hara... You have a keen eye. I really hope that Catherine O'Hara is like, I will do your mushroom zombie show.

I'm not in for long days. I'm not in for days with a ton of people. You'll have me for this much, and that's what I'll give you. And they're like, we'll work with it. It seems like it's going to actually be very cold for a lot of this. Yeah, not for me. Calm me in when the weather's kinder. You know, I like that if that is in fact what happened behind the scenes, I like that it works as a character beat. Yeah. Because Gale is presented to us as this observer, this studier of human nature. Yeah.

not only in her active sessions, but just in the way that she assesses human behavior inside of the town. So what better way to do that other than through deep and revealing conversation in a private session than by leering at people from a balcony or from afar? Um,

Yeah, it does work as a character moment. But I still have my suspicions about this. Okay, so anyway, it doesn't matter. I love this. It generally doesn't matter. Okay, so we have this great conversation between Gail and Ellie, which she will talk to Tommy about later, just in terms of Ellie's lying to her. She knows Ellie's lying to her. We can tell she knows that Ellie is lying to her. Bella's performance of Ellie doing... She's a liar, but she's not a great liar. Yeah.

And that's an interesting thing about Ellie. You know, I mentioned Liar Bella Aqua, you know, earlier, his dark materials, but I was just thinking about her even more inside of this episode. There's a difference between lying and being a liar. Yeah. As Gail points out later, I thought all of that was really interesting. But they have this fascinating conversation about final moments. What does a final moment mean?

inside of your relationship. And she gives this sort of very Pat Glib therapy speak answer, of course. But I thought it was interesting that Neil Druckmann talked about in the official podcast how many final moments Ellie has already had with people in her life. And any of these people who have gone through the mushroom apocalypse. But of course, we have seen Ellie...

You know, with Sam, with Taz, with like all these people, obviously, with Riley, etc., which will be on our mind a little bit later. But I think it's interesting to think about it in terms of Gale. It's something Rob brought up in the Prestige Pause, and it's a theory I've been seeing floating around. We still don't know what happened with Eugene. But Rob said his interpretation was...

That whatever Joel did, he did not allow Eugene to say goodbye to Gail. And so that Gail did not get a final moment with Eugene, you know, et cetera. I think that's interesting. Is that a monstrosity so big that Gail would be holding on to it the way that she is with Joel inside of the session? I don't know the answer to that, but...

Yeah, I think that seems likely to me as well that, you know, given that there is, depending on where you're bitten, like a varying time before you turn and opportunity in theory if Eugene was infected. And again, we still don't know for a farewell that maybe Joel deprived her of. And especially given the centrality in this conversation between Gail and Ellie of like final moments, that feels I think that already felt quite likely and now feels even more likely. Yeah.

was Eugene in fact bitten or did something else spark whatever happened between him and Joel? Did something happen between them and then he was bitten as a result of that? Like, we just have no idea because again, as we've said many times, this is all invented for the show. Yeah, the Firefly connection I think is really intriguing to people. Did he know something about

Yeah, that's like more theory fodder, certainly. And that question is like a scrawl in the journal in the game, but just the way that it's kind of like brought to the fore again in this episode with Dina sharing her wolves' knowledge gained from Eugene because of his history and the fireflies, et cetera. It's sort of all going through our minds again. I will say I'm like...

I'm okay to not know and wait. I wonder how long they're going to draw this Eugene question out. It's like a lot of time to build a mystery around a character we don't know. Right. So I'm curious to see. Obviously, we know Ellie. We know Joel. We know now Gail. So we have the ability to feel the impact in all of these different ways. And certainly, the show has a long established history at this point of

introducing characters like Bill and Frank or Sam and Henry and then very quickly allowing us to forge an attachment. So that could obviously still happen. But I don't know that, like, for me, what happened with Eugene and Joel is like a...

And we'll find out in the finale kind of question. I'm sort of like expecting an insight here by the midseason mark, but maybe not. I don't know. We'll see, I guess. I thought in terms of just how Ellie kind of handled this, it was fascinating to see different versions. Like, obviously we will...

We will get to the council scene and talk about that later. And as you noted, Gail and Tommy just discussed this like lying or liar, liar, the way that Ellie navigates that exchange. I'm looking forward to discussing that, the reading of the letter at the council. But this is a very different brand of

still ultimately something that falls under the same... Like, it's an offshoot of the same coaching tree, right? I am working my audience. Like, I have an agenda and a mission, and I need to get from here to that door right there. And in this case, it's like, I need them to tell me I can go. In the council meeting, it's I need them to say, hopefully, 16 people can head to Seattle, and if not, fuck it, I'm going anyway. Hope Dina comes and tells me what to pack other than guns. Can't wait to talk about that scene. Just incredible stuff. But there's a, like...

There's a playing the good patient posture from Ellie here. And I think the thing that makes it interesting is not necessarily that she's doing that, but that she knows Gail doesn't buy it for a second. So it's like this shared bit of theater. Yeah, exactly. Yeah, and that was really fascinating. And I think like what makes this then, because they both know that they're engaged in that game and that dance together, what makes it interesting for us as viewers then is less...

the art of the dance and more what are the kernels of truth inside of the lies? And like, there's a good amount of that here. And there's, I think despite everybody, you know, including the showrunners and plenty of people who talk about the show repeatedly and rightly pointing out that Ellie is a liar, plenty of truth mixed in. And, and Mason and Druckmann talked about that as well on the official pod in a way I found really interesting. Like, you know, this question here of should your last moment with somebody be,

define your experience with them. Gail and Ellie are talking about the night of the dance, but... Yeah. What was Ellie's actual last moment with Joel? Seeing him be brutally murdered and seeing somebody, Abby, take away something from her. Deprive her of the thing that gives her life a sense of, like, bearing and mooring. That true Norse. And, like...

I think this idea of like letting yourself off the hook, I thought the performance of like, I guess I'll have to let myself off the hook for that was obviously very amusing, but it does actually pose a really interesting and rich question for us as viewers. Like, is this a story where people are capable of letting themselves off the hook? And is it a story where people are capable of letting other people

off of the hook. Obviously, this will be part of the text of the conversation in the town council with the question of mercy that we are both obviously excited to talk about today. Shout out Carlisle. Boy, it's hard to just, you come in, you got one scene, you got to make it count. And he did. That was really impactful. So, yeah, I just thought this was like really great. And, you know, Ellie's on the road now. So, I don't know. I'm like desperate for many scenes with Gail. Should have stayed and done therapy. I think everyone should be in therapy. Yeah.

But also Gail's calendar sounds pretty full. I know. Gail is really working through a loaded Wee Blue slate right now. Yeah, it's true. Keeping her weed and booze, and that's nice for her, but also brutally tough. Okay, so. Oh, man. I think also one other moment I want to parse inside of this is that Ellie, when Ellie is like, when Gail is saying, hey, he talked to me.

You know, that he did something wrong, do maybe bad. Right. And Ellie's like, what, what do you know? Yes. As we continue to parse what Ellie knows, what does Ellie know about what Joel did? Right. How much of a reckoning have they had in the last five years somewhere? This moment almost seemed like protective. Like even if Ellie knows the entire truth about what Joel does, did she doesn't want everyone to know what Joel did. Right. And so what do you know?

And it turns out Gail doesn't know anything. So Ellie's like, okay, let's continue to play this game then. Yeah. And then we get her face going absolutely stony as she walks down the hallway. I loved that, the walking toward the camera and the camera moving and the mask.

Again, a mask that some—you know the person you put the mask on for knows it's a mask, but still we get to see what it looks like when it falls. You know what I was thinking of? I think in part because, as mentioned, the director of this episode directed the Bill and Frank episode, but I was thinking a lot throughout this episode of—

The smiles that pass between Joel and Ellie when Linda Ronstadt kicks in and the sun plays across their face and they are opening the fence and pulling out in the pickup truck of Bill and Frank's and moving on to the next stage of their journey. And there's that little smile and the look passing between them in the sense that they have taken the next step in their relationship. But the lyric that paired with that moment in that episode was wonderful.

wait for the day you'll go away knowing that you warned me of the price I'd have to pay. And like, it just always felt, Mallory, that's not cool of you to share. So ominous. That's not cool of you to share. But also being so beautiful and touching. And it's just like, man, I rewatched, I kept rewatching that like a couple minutes this week as I don't visit Gail, but do try to process in my own way. I'd love to go to a baseball game with Gail. Oh, yeah.

The best. I mean... Her dunking on that kid who fell over. Giant beers or no. Great time with Gail at the... Oh, man. She said the beers are from Marshall. This is a good example of who we could have met to be, you know, how was Marshall doing? How did Seth get shot?

How did Seth get shot? I would have liked to have seen it. That's all I'm saying. What was Marshall up to? How did Rachel's sister die? What was Carlisle doing during, you know, what was boring Scott doing during the battle of Jackson Hole? Checking in on the various poultry plants, I guess. Turkey v. chicken. What's going on, you know? Okay. Meanwhile at Miller Manor.

We get the Miller mailbox open with flowers on it, flowers and trophies along the fence. This is straight out of the game. Though, of course, in the game, it hasn't been three months later, so they're all fresh. And here, most of these flowers are dried up and old. People have moved on. There's a few fresh bouquets there, but mostly people have moved on to a certain degree. Though there is, and the showrunners were...

clear to outline this. There is a clear sense that Joel meant so much to this community. Rachel's like, what about my sister? Yes. I care about your nameless sister, Rachel, probably. But Joel was a pillar of this community and losing him means something to everyone, even if it means that much more to Ellie. It's not insignificant that Joel in particular has died here. And I thought that was really good.

The stretch in general destroyed me. I'm tired. This is where I'm most likely to cry on today's pod. I think the talking about the jacket in a few minutes, but this is a level in the game. So you got to like, I'm watching you're playing. So you got to have this experience of walking through Joel's house. Yeah. But like before we even go inside, I thought just like,

lingering for a second on the mailbox with the name Miller on it. I don't know. It's like a mailbox is... The world is radically different in post-outbreak in many respects. But something like that, it's like a symbol of domesticity, right? And it's not just... Yeah. Right. Exactly. It's not just like family, home. It's permanence. You have a mailbox because you're staying. You're there. And I just like...

Ugh, felt so sad seeing that, but also happy that they had it. And then imagine Joel with his glasses like halfway down his nose, like carefully painting Miller on the mailbox. Oh my gosh, stop.

And then when we're panning the various flowers and stuffed animals and stuff, we get this like little glimpse of a letter, a handwritten letter. And it says, Joel, thank you for your service to the town. You will be greatly. And then, you know, our view of the rest of the letter cuts off. And I don't know why, but that fucking destroyed me. Like I had that, seeing that letter made me so sad and really impacted me so deeply. I think like something about the fact that

It's like affirmation that, you know, that's what Joel wanted to be, right? Of service. Like we've talked about so much and to see in the various different ways, the lives that he's touched and how many people in some capacity felt, you know, the impact of what he provided. And, you know, I think for, for in the world of the story, a lot of what we talk about is how these like certain decisions and a few moments, you

define you and define other people around you. And maybe in the case of the decision that Joel made at St. Mary's, define the fate of the world. But also there are still even then all of those other moments, like all of the people you interact with or help every single day. And just like a little thing like that glimpse, I don't know, it just like allowed us to see that. And so again, to go back to that Tommy line from season one, like we just weren't any good at them.

Well, here we see that Joel, he was. He got to be. Like, for a little bit, he got to live his life differently. And I just, I don't know. He did this thing at the end of season one that is like a world shaking me. Yes. Horrible. Yes.

however much you might understand when he did, horrible thing to have done. No question. That didn't mean that he was then horrible for the rest of the last five years of his life. Right. Yeah. And I think seeing these little reminders of what he did with that time, it makes the ghosts of the past chasing him down all the more tragic. You know, that idea that you can't escape. You can't. Yeah. Okay. So Ellie walks into the home. It is dusty. It is stale.

and it's a, you know, it's tomb. And it reminded me a lot of Joel and Ellie walking into Bill and Frank's at the end of long, long time. Um, and she walks slowly towards Joel's room and she gets distracted by her old room. Yeah. And we get a glimpse of, we don't know what happened that, that took Ellie out of this room that was inside of the Miller household out into the garage. Um, and,

But the mattress is off the bed, the empty bed frames, the mattress was pulled out, but all these trappings of...

younger Ellie were left behind in this room. Like, did she take anything besides her mattress with her out there? There's like a poster of a pink astronaut. We know this like sort of astronaut theme with what Ellie wanted to be, but like, it's sort of like the pink nature of the astronaut is so like girlish in a way that a Ellie kind of never was, but also it's just more childlike than the decor, obviously that we see out in the garage. And we talked so much in episode one about whatever happened to them, um,

that is specific to their story. There is also just the growing pains of going from 14 year old girl to a 19 year old girl and what that means with the, with the father figure in your life and the separation that comes from it. But I just loved, I loved seeing her there. And it almost read to me as like this wistfulness of,

of who she used to be when she was that younger girl with Joel, similar to the way we saw Abby watch her younger self before she walked into the room and saw her father's brains on the floor in that dream sequence last week. Yeah, I love that comparison. I thought also the little detail, like the astronaut is...

Playing a guitar. So this is like an embodiment of the dreams that Joel and Ellie both had for what the future could be. It's like the it's it's this time capsule of their shared future that then was left behind and lost. I think also like the in terms of the various tombs the characters have walked into at some point to your to your Bill Frank comp.

The thing that made me even more desperately sad here was like at least then Joel and Ellie were together. And the thing that I the thing that I was so struck by here was the the inescapable sound of the creaking floorboards under her feet because there was not the sound of anyone or anything else.

Like, it was just this, like, it's this constant, every step she takes is a reminder that she's alone kind of a sound design. In the game, you go in with Dina. Dina's downstairs, but you go in with her. So I did, I agree, like, this choice to send Ellie in all alone to give her this moment upstairs, which we'll get to in a second. We walk into Joel's room. We see the workbench, which, you know, anytime you see a workbench, the video game players are like,

what's there to explore. In the game, there's a guitar there. Here, there's like a wooden, a carving of an owl and a duck, but the woodworking, woodworking Joel is still with us here. But our listener Maddie pointed out that in the inside of the episode, she said, in a shot that I don't believe made it into the actual episode, you can see Joel's guitar hanging on the wall of his room and it has no strings on it.

I was wondering how he found a set so quickly on New Year's Eve. Of course, he would take the strings off his own guitar and put them on Ellie's just in case she wanted to play. Still hoping we get a flashback scene of these two and a guitar. Man, this...

hurt my feelings, Maddie, but thank you so much for sharing it. That's a great, great flag and spot because, yeah, there are no strings on the guitar on the workbench in the game, but also like the wall is covered in guitars. Yeah. I had not caught that one watching the episode initially. So that was a great spot. The guitar on the workbench in the game, from my memory, almost looks like a guitar in progress, like an unfinished guitar. Not, I took the strings off this guitar to put it on Ellie's guitar. Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah. I love that spot. In the playthrough that I'm watching, this is a moment where the person I was playing through was going through Ellie's journal. I don't know if this is automatic to this moment or not. But there's a poem in the journal that I want to read really quickly. And I will do Ellie the favor of not reading the parts that were scratched out. Yeah. Yeah.

My mouth tastes like iron. Wounds break open as I sing. You were the soft twang of nylon, a smell of wood oil, fret full. Guitar strings with iron sound brighter. They mistook your resonance and left me with rust. All I have is our last conversation looping like a chord progression. Harmony is in blood. Great stuff from Ellie.

Really is. I was going to read that almost like in a jokey beat poetry way, but I decided not to because it actually really got to me. This idea, this symbolism of like... Oh my God. Joel as the guitar in this. You were the soft twang of nylon. Like that's just... That's really amazing. And this idea of resonation, of course, like I echo you, you echo me back. And the sound we make together is richer than the sound we could make alone. I just think that is...

incredibly beautiful. Also at this moment in the journal, you get this, this phrase, all the promises at sundown. I meant them like the rest future days, baby.

Really? The role of music in the story is obviously supreme. You know, what that represented to Joel and their relationship. You know, we get the moment later when Ellie and Dina are riding horses and playing a little alphabet, like name that musical act game. And, you know, like obviously music means different things for different people. But this idea of the way that a lyric or the stroke of a guitar chord can like

something about how you feel in a way that maybe you couldn't on your own. So for Ellie to like be thinking of Joel in those terms when he's gone, it's a beautiful part of the game. And I, in general, just love when you get to glimpse Ellie

Ellie's journal entries in the game and like really see how not only what she is feeling and thinking, but how she is kind of processing that actively. Like what is she, how is she framing it to herself? Yeah. And so how is, how is she thinking about Joel and what that sound did and what that, that absence of the residents now feels like and means. So you have like all of the, in the game and the, I thought beautiful and very faithful in this stretch adaptation and the show is like,

You know, it's a study in time capsules, right? Like, the fact that Ellie's room is, even though the mattress is gone because she's got to sleep on something out there, like, from Joel's perspective, it's preserved. From Ellie, it's this, like, thing she chose to leave behind, right? It's like a museum of her former self. Yeah, exactly. And for Joel, it's like, I've got to hold on to this, um...

Uh, it's some incredible Easter eggs in that room. Shout out the hat. I won't say anything else about the hat for now, but saw the hat and was like, fuck the hat. Great stuff. Uh, so I love all of that. And then now, like when Ellie goes from this, this snapshot of this museum of what her life used to be like into Joel's room and it's like, well, what did Joel's private space look like? What did he surround himself with? What does it

what does it bring back and evoke for her now? And to go from what's in the box into what's in the closet. This was just like, this was where I was just a fucking wreck watching, watching the stretch. I loved it. The box is so good. This is directly out of the game, this red box on the bed. And you open it up and it is the watch on top and then a cloth, a cloth and then the gun underneath. And I just thought this was an incredible moment. And then when I heard Craig talk about it, Craig and Neil talk about it on the official podcast, it,

I've had even more profound emotional response to it. This idea that this is a snapshot of the two Joels. It's Sarah's dad and it is Ellie's dad. And Sarah's dad is the watch and Ellie's dad is the gun. And Craig's like,

She goes right past the watch because it doesn't mean anything to her. That's a Sarah and Joel thing. And she goes right for the gun because that's an Ellie and Joel thing. Quote, he saved her with violence. She saved him with violence. So this idea of like...

The before and after of Joel inside, like captured inside of a box that I can only presume Tommy put there. And I can only presume Tommy put there for Ellie. That's what I have to assume about that. Yeah. And like, what does it mean then if that's the piece of somebody you choose to carry with you? Right. I think it is appropriate to me that she doesn't take the watch. Right.

But what does it mean if the thing that you bring with you, the memory of another person, what that person represented to you and the part of them that you want to then like carry forward is...

a vessel of violence. Like, it's so disturbing. Yeah, we got an email from a, I didn't put it in the notes today, but we got an email from a listener who was referring back to that first moment when Ellie first sees Joel get extremely violent on, sort of on her behalf and how excited she was by that, which is something Craig and Neil... We're the federal agent. Yeah. We mourn her still. Do we? No.

Something that Craig and Neil, you know, called out at the time. Okay, so then we get- I remember the word that Mason used for that. I think about that a lot was like activated. Activated, yeah. He either said activated or activation. But like that just has always struck me as such a brilliant framing. And especially in the context of an episode like this where like we'll hear Gail say, you know, they were walking side by side from the jump. Party in her. Yeah. Right. It's like it was already there and then boom, something kicked in and it's like this is a person who has this too. Yeah. Okay. Okay.

Then we get this moment. This is absolutely heart-rending. I just can't handle this. This is too much. This is out of the game, but I could not help but think about because, probably because we talked to Gustavo, the composer of the show, who's also the composer of Brokeback Mountain, one of my, genuinely, I think, a masterpiece, one of my favorite movies. And honestly, sometimes, if I just want to cry, I'll watch the scene at the end of the movie where Heath Ledger, who plays Ennis, spoilers for Brokeback Mountain, goes to visit where

where, uh, Jack lived and he finds his shirt sort of tucked in with Jack's shirt together, hanging in the way back of the closet. And he like holds it and he cries. Um, and then I cry. Um, and so, uh,

you know, Neil said that it was one of their animators ideas to put this in. It did feel like a direct Brokeback illusion to me, but also this is probably a universal experience. I've never lost someone who's like, who identified closely with us. You know, I've lost grandparents, but I, I,

Don't know that I've ever lost someone where I'm like, if I go take a huff of their jacket right now, this will be a solace or maybe even salt in the womb. But it is a pain I want to feel because I want to feel close to them again. Does this still smell like them? More beautiful golden light in this sequence. That sunbeam. And then the tears just dripping. Yeah.

off of her face. Bella, incredible in this moment. Director Peter Hoare mentioned the camera getting really close. He said, uncomfortably close to her here. Right? That you want to be so close you can't hide from her grief. Right. And I just, this is just, I did think about you, Mallory, and I did wonder if you ever fondled a Carhartt in your own closet. Oh, man. I did think about that, but mostly I was...

Terribly emotionally upset. Thank you for thinking of me. I appreciate it. This is a Huckberry, Flint, and Tinder. Let the record stay. Though, as you know, I have this one too. Oh, I'm so sorry. In addition to the many cards. I'm so sorry.

Thank you.

And then to see this, I love that you're tracking these golden hour moments. I thought that the beam of sunlight breaking through there, this idea of the possibility of a speck of brightness amid the despair was very powerful. Yeah. And I thought, to your point, this did feel, whether anybody has had this exact experience or not,

So human and so relatable. And those moments in a mushroom zombie apocalypse tale or any other genre tale, like that's part of why we love these stories so much, because the particular genre aspects are not things that we have experienced, but the truth of life is there. And this idea of like wanting to.

To cocoon yourself in this garment that you associate with the person that you love, almost like an embrace that they can no longer provide, just feels to me like, yeah, so true to the experience of confronting a thing that reminds you of somebody who's gone. And I also love with the jacket in particular for Joel, like it's kind of his superhero suit.

You know, like this is – there's a reason that Huckberry – when HBO picked this, when the Last of Us team picked this, like started selling the jacket as like the – I'm paraphrasing, I forget, but it was basically like the only jacket you'll need for the apocalypse. And I'm like, yeah, lean in, do it. You know, you might as well. But it's like –

This is just basically like a sturdy waxed trucker for a guy who like went outside and tried to do okay. Like every day for two and a half decades through the apocalypse. So the fact that we associate it with his like armor, but it's just a thing that you had on to keep warm or keep dry feels so perfect to me as a way to encapsulate like navigating the circumstances of this universe.

And yeah, like much this and the gun, like more fitting things to spark this real emotional response, the conviction and then the emotion gun jacket in Ellie than the watch would have been. And, you know, when Ellie like pressed her face into the sleeve of the jacket, the thing again from the Bill and Frank episode.

last season that was really on my mind was that really beautiful and gut-wrenching line. I've had a lot of bad days. I've had bad days with you too, but I've had more good days with you than with anyone else. And like Joel and Ellie had a lot of bad days, but she had more good days with him than with anyone else. And that's what she's feeling here. I was thinking about Bill and Frank in the context of

Because this house reminded me of walking into Bill and Trig's house, a literal tomb where they are upstairs with the window open. Right.

Neither of them had to have a moment where they like huff each other's jacket because they went out together and they never had to experience the pain of no longer being us, but being just a me. Okay. Speaking of us is here comes Dina and something that, you know, we watch, we hear Dina and we watch Ellie frantically. Yeah.

Wipe the tears. What could be more natural than to be found crying over your dead dad when you're back in his house for the first time? But this is not something that Ellie wants Dina to see. Those tears are just for her and just for Joel, no one else. The way that Craig put it is no one gets to see what's inside the smallest circle of all, which is Joel and Ellie. So here comes Dina. Yeah.

And we understand that she was Ellie's most frequent visitor at the hospital from a quick line. In the game, it's Tommy to a certain degree who comes with a Tupperware bearing leftovers from Maria, I just want to point out. Yeah. What would you bring me in a Tupperware if you were trying to mollify me from withholding information? What a great question. So in this scenario, you've been away from your customary favorites, right, for three months. I'm bringing you mead.

Yeah, you love mead. I do love mead. Yeah, I think I'm going to bring you mead. Okay. And maybe some high chews. Mead and high chews. A mango. Make it a mango high chew and you got a deal. Oh, the mango is really good. Yeah. Really, really good. What would you bring me? Flamin' Hot Cheetos? Yes.

I would either bring you a home state or your faves from McDonald's. These are great ones. Oh, sorry. I would bring you a Cranras, of course. Yeah. But also the meat. Yeah, I would just bring a bunch of drinks. I think alcohol is a great idea. Cookies are another thing. Our listener Lori did ask, and it's funny because I was thinking about this, but Lori articulated it better than I did because I was looking at those cookies that Dina brings. And as Lori pointed out, there are like little, like,

dark chunks in it. Are they raisins? Are they chocolate chips? If they're chocolate chips, do we still have access to Nestle Tollhouse semi-sweet chocolate chips in like 25 years into a mushroom zombie apocalypse? If so, incredibly rare would they not be, maybe less rare than propofol. And so like, like,

How precious are these cookies that Dina has made for Ellie? Did she source extremely rare chocolate chips in order to make them? Or are they oatmeal raisin? And if they're oatmeal raisin, I will just say me personally, and we did get an email about this, but I already had it in my notes. I'm not eating any cookies. I had this in my notes too. It's like,

The flour, are we sure? I'm going keto in the mushroom apocalypse. I think so. No more grains for me. Thank you very much. Oh, God. Okay. So, Dina reveals that she has some info. I love that Ellie is like, I don't care. You cost us time. You let them get away. Same. I love this because...

Ellie has just the world's biggest, massive crush on Dina. And for this to cut through all the other moments where we've seen Ellie sort of like, you know, soft and, you know, giggly and girlish and whatever. And there's ways in which she is in a different headspace than, of course, we met her earlier. But there's ways in which this is more important than Dina.

being nice to the person she has a crush on. This takes precedent, you know? Yeah, agreed. All right. How do you feel about Dina's let-them-get-where-they're-going strategy? Because they could take any route, I guess, to Seattle. You don't have to go through the squalmy valley or whatever. Right. I guess, like, yeah, you know, this is...

It's as good a plan as any, like, let's go to the place where we know they, where we can deduce that they are from and would likely return. Um,

I'll say this. It's not my number one. Dina, a hell of a lot more planning than Ellie, so praise where it's due, but this would not be my number one note on Dina's assessing of the board. That would be the multiple times in the episode where we just are assuming they're basically like

11 wolves. 12. A dozen. What's a pack? A dozen? That sounds right. Oh, man. You got to update the swarm throng. Is it a horde of wolves? The pack. Dual throngs? Oh, God. That's a prestige TV rush. Okay, so Craig says this. Dina shows you can be hurt and heartbroken and still engage your frontal lobe. And I loved thinking about that and thinking about the way in which

Dina serves as contrast to another way forward in a way that Joel didn't have in season one. So here's Ellie in the Joel role, as we will discuss later at the front of the horse, having just lost something. She can, someone she considers her whole world, the way that Joel considered, not just, but the way that Joel considers Sarah, his whole world. So she's in this space of darkness and bleakness and stuff like that. And Dina as contrast is like,

I lost all of this, but obviously Joel isn't the same to Dina as he is to Ellie, but just sort of like, here's a different path forward. Yeah, but like that, I loved him too, you know, was important. Not only like the, you know, thinking back to the beginning of the season and the hey kiddo, the movie night plans they made, Joel saying like, looks up to me, makes me feel like I'm a good guy, which I am. They did have a bond. And then of course, this is also building on just the

the adaptive change, like we talked about last week, to have Dina in the room and what an additional motivator that plus her bond and relationship with Joel would be. So I like, yeah, the blending of the loss that Dina is also feeling, the person she is also mourning, who she had a relationship with and deep affection for with the, let's plot, let's plan. I've got a pitch. It's methodical. I like this as like, but to a larger point, I like this as Dina is like,

kindred but contrast to Ellie and later as Gail will say Ellie and Joel is kindred to kindred in and so Joel didn't I mean Tommy I guess is the example of a different way but Joel didn't have when Joel makes his big decision in the hospital the end of last season I would simply like I don't I don't always blame Joel for what he did because

But there had, I feel like there has to be a way where you don't kill all those, like, let's wake Ellie up and talk to her and ask her what she wants. There's like, surely there were things that you could do. It's not an either or. For Joel, it is. It's like either Ellie dies or I kill everyone, right? But like, what's the other path forward? What could Adina, who plans, have offered to Joel in that moment and said, hey, I have a list of things we can do.

You know, let's consider this. I just think that's something that Joel didn't have that Ellie does inside of this season, you know? Yeah, there's like a modulated aspect to the pursuit that I do. I like that comp of like Dina and kind of the Tommy role because, of course,

Tommy and Joel lost a lot of the same people and lived a parallel life for a while and then they didn't. Like, then there was a fork and like, what does that tell us about how they were different? Even what we hear from Tommy in this episode, like, what he has to say about what he's thinking about and processing for his decision, but also like, what he's asking Ellie to remember about Joel and how he behaved too. Like, there is an ability for Tommy or Dina in this situation, which is like, as Tommy says, like, he was my brother too. Tommy is mourning, but like,

just one degree of like distance to try to process and frame and then move forward after having done so that Ellie is like just not it's I don't know is it a question of if she's capable or just like not interested not interested in doing that yeah exactly um as you mentioned Dina says there's the wolves are small enough to handle yes because no one has mentioned them since and I wrote on my notes maybe because they killed everyone who met them something to consider Dina

Oh my God. I love that. That's really funny. That's great shit. I love that. I also like really, you know, we kind of, we observed last week. Well, boy, you're just all introducing and identifying yourselves. And also there's like a very clearly branded patch on that backpack. So we expected Dina to, to share this information. I thought that the particular side of the rundown of the Salt Lake crew, the particular, like the girl with the braid, Abby, um,

Like the whisper. There was something about the way Ellie whispered it because a whisper can be gentle. It can be like a caress for a lover. It can be something like you take someone into your confidence. But this was like a vow, right? This was a pledge. This was a declaration. So it was chilling. As Dina says, now what? Now we go to Todd. Okay. I have just updated my notes and so I'm going to say it correctly here. The Flint and Tinder era is over.

Enter Aviation Nation as Dina debuts a very cute and very expensive Aviation Nation rainbow jacket. Great shop in Abbot Kinney in Venice. Yes, I've seen it. I love...

I love looking at the Aviation Nation website. I will never buy an Aviation Nation jacket because I cannot justify it, but it is one of those things that I love to look at. I've come very close once to a sky blue sweatshirt. Very close. It's tempting. I knew it right away. I was like, I know what this is. It's a great logo. I could never on my life as you know now distinguish a waxed

trucker from another but give me a a whimsical rainbow jacket and i've got you okay so ellie and tommy share a version of the conversation that they have in the game um and when ellie says joel would be halfway to seattle in the game tommy just kind of says no he wouldn't no he wouldn't but here he mounts like a very convincing rebuttal right and

He says he'd be halfway to Seattle to save my life. And that there's a difference between saving a life and seeking vengeance. And this is actually something we got a lot of emails about from the Bad Babies, the listeners who are pushing back on not only us, but also we should say the showrunners, equating what Abby did with what Joel did. And a lot of conversations with this about this with people last week, like Abby is seeking vengeance. Joel was seeking to protect Abby.

On the one hand, yes, but also he's seeking vengeance for the people who like put Ellie in that position to a certain degree. I would also say if we're like, if we're trying to measure the scale scale here, Joel does have 18 bodies on his side and Abby has one. So I don't know if that does anything to sort of like even out the scales or anything, but like,

When we lost people, it would just break him like it was his fault. We know that that's true. Sarah, among other things. Do you have anything you want to say about this idea of the difference between saving a life versus seeking vengeance? I guess just in general, whether it's Joel or Abby or anything else, this is what I was alluding to earlier when I was saying, I think that...

This is actually one of the things I really love about the story. First of all, just at the most basic level, that it kind of invites interpretation, right? Not everybody is actually going to feel the same way about a decision a character makes or see the same parallels. I think that's part of the point. A lot of this is like a study of human nature should never be simple and clean, right? So I think in terms of the Joel Abbey, I think that the thing people are bumping on, like

To me, it's, I think that it's another example of how, like, yes, I agree. Seeking to save someone is different from seeking vengeance. I think that that is certainly more of an Ellie Abbey comp in an area where there's a parallel there as Ellie, you know, sets off on this journey here to seek vengeance. She'll tell everyone that's not about revenge. But she's lying. It's justice, guys. It's just justice. But it's,

It's like, this is again, it's like not like the all or nothing, just either or. The fact that there are parallels and distinctions is part of the point. Like the parallel to me is not, are you saving or seeking vengeance? The parallel is-

How one person, how their us is the paramount, dominant, prominent, all or nothing thing. That's the parallel. And then I think there can be a lot of distinctions inside of it. And ultimately, that's why it's an interesting story. If everybody was like exactly the same, then there wouldn't be any nuance. There wouldn't be anything to talk about. To your point about the different interpretations. Yeah.

My favorite moment of the official pod this week is when... This was fucking great. Troy Baker, who's doing an incredible job as a host last season and this season, was talking about how Tommy would have voted. And he's like, that's so interesting. I think he would have done this.

And at first, Neil and Craig are like, you're wrong. And then he keeps talking about it. And Neil's like, well, you're right about like in this way. You're right. And then Craig's like, no, you're both wrong. And so they all have, they all three had different, slightly different interpretations or in Craig's case, radically different interpretations of what Tommy would have done. But it's all,

inside of a piece of art like this to view it differently. I loved that moment of the pod. That was so funny. I really enjoyed that. And yeah, I thought that this scene with Dina, Ellie, and Tommy was, you know, really great. Don't talk to me like I didn't know him. He was my brother. You know, like the very beginning of the show, that great Joel, Tommy, Sarah, they're still alive, you old fucker. Oh, he loves you. He's dependent on me. Not the same. Yeah.

and Sarah's saying, I think it's the same. And Tommy's saying, it's definitely the same. Like Tommy went forward and built a life, a life he,

Did not need Joel to save him from like he thought he, like Joel thought he did. But that doesn't mean that he's prepared to be without him either, right? Like that's not how loss and reliance work. And sometimes you only feel what somebody like provided you most keenly when they're gone. So Tommy working through that in his way and also them being able to like impart to Ellie clarity about Ellie and Joel have lived a lot of time together and some very meaningful experiences. But Tommy has a history that dates back to

to a time that Ellie couldn't know and hadn't seen. And so I thought that this was like really important and very good, just very poignant. And I really loved it. I love, I love thinking about that, about going back as we have to Joel's comment about Tommy being a joiner. One really is just Joel bumping on anytime Tommy decided to be part of a community that wasn't just him. Yeah, exactly. Yeah.

Joel, I'm going to write codependent in my notes if I'm Gail. That's what I would say. So I love this exchange. They have to take it to Maria, which is what Tommy says in the game as well. And then he goes to hug Ellie. And I really loved this performance here from Bella because it was like, it wasn't a wholly resistant to the hug reaction. It was like a bit of stiffness. This is not like hugging Joel, right?

But at this point, it's as close, it's Joel Methadone. It's as close as I'm going to get for the rest of my life is Uncle Tommy here. And so she does seem to get some comfort from that hug, which I really like. I don't want to talk about what rendering detail is. I know what it is. I don't want to talk about it. So we're not gonna. The threat landed. The threat landed. Yeah.

When he mentions Joel's grave, Ellie says she'll stop on the way to Seattle. And this is where our listener Molly makes some excellent points. Molly says, I feel like in the hard times of a mushroom zombie apocalypse, in the confines of a small town, where you're also somehow raising enough cattle to feed everyone, one would surely see the pragmatism in composting the dead bodies or at the very least burying them underneath crops instead of putting them 10 miles away. Side note, can you compost clickers?

Would you compost clickers? I feel like you would just burn them, right? You would burn... I don't feel equipped to comment. I don't know. I don't know enough about...

I mean, what I will say is like there's this whole movement to bury people not in caskets but inside of these like wraps so that they can like sort of organically decompose in the earth rather than just like us burying garbage down into our earth, which is what we're doing every time we put a casket, with respect, a varnished casket, a satin-lined casket into the ground. It's not garbage, it's your loved one's final resting place, but it is like putting inorganic material into the ground. And so...

This movement to sort of like wrap. I'm leaving that in. Don't cut that. Okay. So wrapping people in a way where they essentially act as compost. But usually it's like a mushroom suit. And I'm just saying like in the mushroom apocalypse, I don't want to grow mushrooms off of a person. That's the last thing I want to do. That being said, Craig did not have a great answer for this on the official podcast about why they buried them there. He said it's pretty.

And Molly sounds very pragmatic to me. So I might listen to her and use some human compost if it will help the biodiversity of Jackson. Yes. Okay. Especially in a place like Jackson where your growing season is so short. Like the winters are long, right? And it's just like...

Do you think Boring Scott has a take on this? I mean, he must. He has so many thoughts on this. He really wanted to compost those bodies. Not so boring, Scott, I would say. Okay.

Before we go to our new favorite character, Boring Scott, we're going to go to a section I'm calling You Want to Know How I Got These Scars. Speaking again of Heath Ledger, as we often are. Okay. So we see this mossy overgrown marking that points to Arboretum, the Puget Trail, and the Seattle Trail. So we're in Washington. And we will see this same marker later when Ellie and Dina get there.

Yes, good way to stitch together the world across these scenes. What do you want to say about this introduction of the Seraphites? Our old pal, the Seraphites. The Scars. We just want to say really quickly, Mallory and I had a discussion about how much do we say about this group here. They'll come up again later. We'll talk about it in the spoiler section, but this is very intentional. So go for it, Mallory.

Yeah, so they refer to themselves as the Seraphites. Scars is the derogatory term from the wolves. Uh...

So quick little scars primer. We get a lot of actually information packed into the episode, both in what we hear, the conversation passed between Jacob and Constance, a father and a child, as Mazin noted on the official pod, like very intentional to introduce us to this new group through this pair. Even though they are surrounded by other people, we are poured it in through the relationship between a father and a daughter. And Druckmann spent...

time on both the inside the episode and on the official pod as well, talking about just like in general, part of the emphasis across games, across seasons is to show us something about the world, something about the way that different groups respond to what happened with the outbreak, make their way through the world. How do you survive? Yeah. How do you survive? How do you forge community? How do you find a belief system and a sense of

safety, belonging, intentionality about your life? And what does that look like not only inside of each group, but then across groups? How does that vary? Um,

Listen, we're station 11 heads always. So how can we not be when we hear the word prophet evoked? Think of station 11, of course. But this is a like a religious faction, a religious cult that is following the teachings of the prophet, as we hear discussed here. Part of the way that that like manifests that is in the language choice of using a word like demons to describe the infected when we get demons infected.

wolves as an exchange between Constance and Jacob, there's a bit of clarity there right away. Well, the wolves to the scars are even worse than the threat of the infected. So the monsters were the monsters. The monsters were the monsters.

We're the monster. So we, they're this, this group that we meet is, is seeking distance, seeking escape and safety because there is a, there's a war, a war between the scars and the wolves. And we could see that the scars, the Seraphites, they wear this kind of like woodland gear, right? Greens and Browns, jackets, boots. They're carrying bows and hammers, really tactile. They're kind of like anti-tech. They've got this fish like symbol, uh,

that Dina and Ellie will mark and discuss and note that they have never seen before, the shaved heads and the braids. And then, of course, those signature scars. I'll read you a little description of what these scars signify, which is from a letter that

You find in the game at a point that I will not say anything else about. Here's what's written on the letter. "'Forgive me for not being present for your initiation ceremony. I remember my own father soothing the sting on my cheeks with eucalyptus leaves soaked in cool rainwater.'

You will forget the pain in time, but the cuts will always be there to remind you of the wisdom of our prophet. We are imperfect beings, and thus we make ourselves imperfect in her eyes. May she guide you through the storm all of your days. May you always find your true strength. I am so proud of you, your father, Ezra, who is mentioned in this sequence. So that's a fun little connection there too. So that is what the scars signify to the Seraphites.

We learn, thank you so much for that. Love allure. Deep dive always with Mallory Rubin. We learn from a very helpful exposition from Constance and Jacob that the prophet has been dead for 10 years. Yes. And the prophet wasn't magic, that she just saw truths hidden from others is what Jacob says. And Tommy will use very similar language about Gail later, which I thought was really interesting. She may be dead, but the prophet is eternal.

So it was with our own profit. And then we get the so it was repeated sort of like the greater good, you know, repeat that we like to sound drop on this podcast from. Thank you. We follow her words. We obey her teachings. We keep ourselves safe. I really love that. So yeah, Constance wants a hammer the way that Ellie wanted a gun from Joel. Yeah.

do you ever do I we love the official pod we love inside the episode do you ever get like bummed that Craig and Neil made a point that you were like oh I got this point and then they make it you're like oh okay well I guess it was so obvious everyone understood it okay anyway um

Oh, my God. Jacob asks her if it makes her feel safer, and she says it does. And he says the distance from war will make her safer. Right. So these are people who are fleeing a conflict, as you pointed out, and they're slaughtered anyway. They get shot in the back. They get shot running. Right.

And I just really like this introduction to a very interesting group of people that we will talk about in the spoiler section. Yeah, this is like a very Thrones-y way of giving us like a couple human faces and a human connection and a conversation to allow us to understand something more about a larger group very quickly. And then show us them dead. Yes, exactly. And we're like, okay.

Oh, no. But just we learned so much, you know, the lessons of the whistles and how, you know, the gamers are going to respond to hearing the whistles. It's going to trigger something immediately right away in you. But just like this, okay, how do these people communicate with each other? What do the different notes and lengths of the whistle and tones convey? And how does a father teach his child that? And when does that child graduate to the next level of being able to be a part of that nature of conversation? It's just like...

Very brief but effective, like, jam-packed introduction to the Seraphites. I love that. And it tells us, even before we see the tank and the troops marching, that Seattle is a war zone, no matter what Dina might suspect. Okay. Yeah.

Quick pre-trial moment with Captain Wyoming himself, newly minted Councilman Jesse. This is another golden hour sequence inside of a training sequence. Jesse is training Ellie to fight just as he did when we met her.

Ellie's out here whipping votes. She already asked Tommy for his vote. She's asking Jesse for his vote. Love this from her. And he gives her advice, right? He says, write it down. She's like, because I'm stupid. He's like, no, you're angry and they won't respond to anger. I really love the sequence. That was great. So much. I think

They've done a really good job in these first three episodes showing us the Jesse and Ellie connection and what they mean to each other. And again, even though Ellie is not fully ensconced inside of this community, there are people who are reaching out to her and trying to form community with her, which is what Jesse is trying to do inside of this moment. You know, and also the like.

The constant Ellie's going to do what Ellie's going to do. We talked about this last week when Jesse's like, look at me. You got to get to the mind no matter what, right? Knowing that she's going to do whatever she's going to do. So when he's like, huh, you're oddly fit for being on bed rest for three months. What were you doing? Oh, exactly what you pleased? How surprising to me. Push-ups and crunches. Yeah, yeah, exactly. I like, too, just the little bit of like, oh, actually, we're not 100% healed yet. Like, download of information there. But yeah, I thought that the framing...

You know, these other people who are reaching out to Ellie is very powerful, as you're noting. I think also from Ellie's perspective, there's something very intentional about the writing here from Mason. Like the language to Tommy was, but you'll back us, right? And then to Jesse here, it's can I count on you? And it's like, yeah, Ellie is on this quest for vengeance, but also Ellie is on a quest of trying to figure out who she can rely on in a world without Joel.

On the one hand, yes. On the other hand, it just feels so disingenuous. She's just like, she knows she needs votes in order to get what she wants. Doesn't have them. So it just feels like similar to the way that she's doing theater with Gail. And as you mentioned when you said theater with Gail, direct theater to Maria inside of this speech that she's about to give, right? Oh, yeah. I appeal to you, the proper prosecutor, et cetera. But to Jesse and to Tommy, she's just sort of like...

I feel like the only person she doesn't do that with is Dina because Dina is just sort of like, obviously, you can count on me. I have your back, obviously. Yeah, Dina using the word us. Yeah. Many times. Okay. The council meeting that I'm calling the United Colors of Flannel. If you look along the row of the council at the top of the thing, I think it's like

Eight out of ten wearing flannel. Anyway. Great stuff. I'm no longer in that weird round council chamber. Yeah. And I don't know if it caught fire or just simply it's just not the right venue for a town hall. Yeah. That's like the private chamber. Yeah. And this is the, we've summoned the town so that anyone, including boring Scott, can speak. Maria being like, so that was Scott. Yeah.

What do you think King Aegon the Magnanimous would have done with Scott's request about turkeys versus chicken? We would just, we'd be altering the turkey chicken plan immediately. We'd be radically amending our reliance on corn. And then within the span of the same conversation, Otto would have to come in and be like, well, actually. What? Hail, hail King Aegon. Hail, hail. Aegon the Conqueror, babe.

All right. So here we meet Rachel. Before we get to Carla, we have Rachel. Yep. And I really loved this moment because I've been thinking ever since Craig Mazin said it,

How important it is for them to delineate the difference between someone with a child and someone with a parent, right? And so as we've talked about all along, this adaptive choice to make Tommy someone with a child. Right. He is a parent. So Rachel is holding like a screaming child.

essentially toddler. It is not the same baby at the beginning of the episode. I did check. That baby is new. This baby is older. But like Rachel is a parent. She doesn't talk about that. She talks about her sister and she talks about the larger cost of the community and how they're licking their wounds and they need to be defended. They can't send out this large posse to go to Seattle, but like, she's also a mom. And it's like, you know, it's not to say that being a parent makes you a monolith in one thing or the other, but your worldview changes. Yeah.

Yeah. Who's going to be on the wall if the Raiders come? I have a family in here. How can it not? What do you think of what Craig was saying in the inside of the episode about he hates when there's a battle sequence and we only focus on Sansa crying over Theon? He didn't say that, but I did. Versus what it means for everyone to have lost so many. Yeah, I think that's a great and right statement.

observation and the show's commitment to not doing that, to actually leaning into the exact opposite, which is maybe despite Ellie's driving force and our even inclination as viewers who are more attached to Joel and Ellie and their relationship than anyone else in the world to say, this is the thing that matters, let's fucking go, to force not only when we pan the bodies at the

Yeah.

Losing Joel feels like the most important thing to us and to Ellie. It is actually the most important thing to Ellie and to us as well. I do not know Rachel's sister, and so I do not care about that the way I care about Joel, genuinely and truly. But I'm really glad that the show told me who she was and told me that there were

as a person who missed her. Yeah, yeah. We don't know her name or anything about her, but someone misses her and that matters. Yeah, it just like forces you to confront the fact that the world, it's the thing we've been talking about since the very first episode of season one, us inherently missing

means them. And so when you have the us of Joel and Ellie, but you also have the us of Jackson, the thems aren't just outside. The thems are inside the wall. There are all these other thems and Jackson and their pain doesn't mean as much to Ellie as her own. And like, why would it? But the show is reminding us that they lost something too. And I think that's crucial. So I really liked the way that this scene played with like priorities and perspective and really centered the fact that just like everybody has their own group.

And to them, it is the biggest thing in the world. I love that. I want to talk about Carlisle here. So we get Carlisle v. Seth. Seth the bigot. Carlisle. Cool, chill dude. Played by Canadian legend Hirakana Gawa. Here's the missing info. Does Carlisle make an equally good steak sandwich? That's what we don't know. I bet he does.

Hero, by the way, shout out to Showgun fans if you love his work there. Also, we should note that because they film in Canada, you get a lot of Canadian actors. I mean, Catherine O'Hara, Canadian legend. You get a lot of Canadian actors inside of this show. So Carlisle talks about forgive and be forgiven. Our capacity for mercy. Seth, while Ellie also scoffs and sneers.

to be on the same page as Seth. These sons of bitches don't deserve our mercy. And Carla says, of course not. That's what makes it mercy. I thought that was so good. Of course not. That's what makes it mercy. A quick little jaunt. Take me there, baby. To mercy corner. Take me. This is a subject we've touched on across like everything we've ever done. It comes up again and again and again. Yeah. Well,

Whenever someone says mercy, I always, I go first to Shakespeare. That's where my brain goes. The very famous from the March into Venice, the quality of mercy is not strained. It droppeth as gentle rain from heaven upon the place beneath. It is twice blessed. It blessed him that gives and him that takes, right? So giving mercy is healing to you as much as it is a boon to the person who receives it, right? Tolkien. Tolkien.

Professor is always welcome. Here comes the Tolkien. The bard is always welcome. The professor is always welcome. Pity? It's a pity. It's his pity that stayed at Bilbo's hand. Pity and mercy. Not to strike without need. My heart tells me that he has some part to play yet, for good or ill, before the end. And when that comes, the pity of Bilbo may rule the fate of many years, not least.

So Tolkien's idea that pity and mercy, I spent a really long time delineating the two in a podcast we did about Rings of Power, but the idea of pity and mercy can change the world is a quality that can change the whole world. Yes. You want to hit us with some George R.R. Martin?

This is, so your number one is Willie Shakes. Yeah. This is always, my number one is Ned, The Madness of Mercy. I think my number two is probably Dumbledore and Draco, Lightning Struck Tower. No, Draco, it is my mercy, not yours, that matters now. But number one for me, instant, instant. I see the word mercy, I think of Ned. The Madness of Mercy, Ned admitted. Ah, said Varys, to be sure.

George, you're so good. George!

Oh, my God. We talked about this recently on House of the Dragon when Rhaenyra says, well, I hope you do not confuse mercy with pliancy. So this idea inside of George R.R. Martin's world, as is often the case, that honor is one thing, but honor, is it practical? I mean, certainly Seth would agree. Certainly Seth would say the madness of mercy, right? No question. And then in honor of Revenge of the Sith being back in theaters. Yeah.

I thought I'd hit you with a little Anakin to Obi-Wan from everyone's favorite Star Wars show, Obi-Wan. Mercy doesn't defeat an enemy master, which is why you're going to lose. I love that. The way I remember that line was, I was like, I know we talked about this on one other property. What was it? It just went in my Google Drive. Put Mercy in the search bar. I did the exact same thing. I was like, oh, Obi-Wan, episode five. That's right. I did the exact same thing. You're my soulmate. So true.

So here we have Seth and Ellie becoming unlikely allies. This was really good. Wild. Which should be upsetting to you at home. It's a lot. The Bard is once again welcome. Shakespeare said of the Tempest, misery acquaints a man with strange bedfellows. So here is Ellie in her misery finding herself allied with Seth who she fucking hates. Um...

I thought it was so interesting. So this is a Craig Mason adaptive choice to write this speech for Seth. All of this episode, all of this deliberation.

Ellie just, like, fucks off to Seattle. Like, we don't have this whole town hall meeting in the game. Like, there's a level where it's like, and now we talk about how government works. But Neil said he cried that someone was advocating for Joel the way that Seth did. And that he felt it was more impactful and more honest because Seth has every reason to not like Joel because Joel just humiliated him in front of everyone at the dance. And so it means something coming from Seth.

Craig echoed more my feelings, which is Seth is a dark mirror of Ellie inside of this moment. It's like when you find yourself and Seth on the same page, should you maybe consider turning the page to a different part of the book? Right. Somebody think about. Ellie's speech. I loved this. Of course, about community.

And I don't want to dwell too long here. We just had a little... We only have two little quarters. It's Mercy Corner. It's Poli-Sci Corner. But I was thinking a lot... The reason I was thinking about Poli-Sci and I was thinking about...

John Locke, not from Lost, but from political science fame. Yep. Or Jean-Jacques Rousseau, not from Lost, but from political science fame. The idea of the social contract, and I'm not a political scientist. Hobbitsanddragons.gmail.com if I get anything wrong. Let me update the list. You're not an actual scientist, nor are you a political scientist. Not a doctor, not a mathematician. Nope.

Like I said, unqualified for anything practical. Okay, so the idea of the social contract, the way I've always thought of it since I took political science in college is this idea of like you're trading the safety and I've always thought of it as literal walls. It's not always literal walls inside of community. You're trading the safety of getting behind that wall with everyone else. And in doing so, you give up

some of your own personal freedom, your own personal liberties in order to be part of that. That is the social contract. I too would like to be behind the now metal reinforced walls of Jackson with you. And in order to be part of your community, I have to give up part of myself in order to do that. For the Trekkies at home, Spock articulated this well in the Wrath of Khan. He says the needs of many outweigh the needs of the few or the one.

This is the social contract with the world that Joel violated when he said, my needs to have Ellie alive outweigh the needs of the many. It's me. And this is what Ellie is saying. My need for, it's not revenge, don't worry. It's not revenge, justice. Sure. Outweighs

Rachel's desire for safety, Carlisle's desire for mercy, all these other things, mine is more important. And I think something to think about when you think about the social contract, why did Joel and Ellie wind up ensconced in Jackson? Yeah. And I think, you know...

Craig and Neil talked about how community is such an important part of this season. And I think it is in that, in these questions of us versus them that we keep talking about. But I think it's also, I think for any brain like Neil's or Craig's, if you're designing an apocalypse, you're thinking about like, okay, well,

When you try to rebuild a society outside of the militaristic oppression of Fedra, when you're trying to build an almost utopia of Jackson, what does that fledgling government, if you could start from scratch, what does that fledgling government look like? And a reason why you go inside the walls of Jackson should be quite clear because

But I just want to shout out our guy Thomas Hobbs, who does not have a comp in the TV show Lost. When he talked about...

The solitary man versus the man who has decided to be part of a society, part of, engaged in a social contract. In such condition, there is no place for industry, no knowledge of the face of the earth, no account of time, no arts, no letters, no society, which is worst of all, continual fear, in danger of violent death, and a life of man, solitary, poor, nasty, brutish, short. That's the most famous part at the end. It's a bar.

The part at the end is pretty famo. So the social contract, Joel and Ellie could have decided to be nomads for the rest of their life, but they decided to move to Jackson and paint and Joel painted his last name on a mailbox and was like, here we stay. Right. This is where we are.

Ellie is deciding to break that social contract to leave Jackson, to go out into the nasty British short world that awaits her outside. As she encounters, when she sees a literal dead child on the road, when she encounters the Seraphites. So we know the specifics of the Jackson government. They're communists. We learned this in season one, episode six, when Maria gives a tour of the town. Yeah.

And that Tommy has committed himself to this community beyond his own wants and needs. And that is something that he has decided here. And I think that's really interesting. And our listener, Joanna, I don't need to dwell here, but showed this great email about the way in which Jackson is a sort of like utopia that there is...

Like, this rugged Western thing that might appeal to a conservative sensibility, this sort of survivalist element to it, while also we have music, strong men are going to therapy, we're not a patriarchal society, Maria is one of the, like, biggest bosses in the town. There's, you know, like...

And bigots like Seth are made to apologize by the mayor, like all this sort of stuff. So the way in which this is a utopia of a certain kind where everyone can hopefully find a place. And then she followed that up with a PS. Seth's speech really sounded like he wanted something else out of this community. Anything you want to say about community, society, social contract, et cetera, et cetera.

You know, what would Lily Tomlin say as we're casting votes? What would Lily Tomlin say?

That's what I honestly was wondering watching this. Yeah, I mean, that was an incredible rundown of some really elemental and key formative ideas that obviously shape much of how the societies function and people think about them, but also a lot of the shows that play with these ideas or stories that play with these ideas that we like. Obviously, like you've mentioned lots of many times, live together, die alone. There's a formative aspect to that in that story. I think one of the...

One of the, and I won't get into the particulars of spoiling another show, but one of the versions of this that I love most is actually in The Good Place. The real question, Eleanor, is what do we owe to each other moment with the TM Scanlon text of the same name? I've always really, really loved that idea and what that show did to explore like

selfishness versus community and what progress and growth on an individual level look like and how they can only be unlocked through other people. I thought that this scene as, like, an adaptive change was so smart. Like, the...

It's not just everything we've already talked about today. What are other people feeling and who are they grieving? The fact that not everybody is aligned, that there is division in a town, but that this is a community where there is a forum for debate and discussion. And then if not consensus, at least clarity about how a decision was reached, showing us that Ellie.

prepared statement to work the room and tell them what they need to hear or not still went through the motions of appealing to a community that then failed her is the kind of change that I think is actually really helpful and like reinforces why she will then set out. This is stronger to me. I love this part of the game. It's like incredibly impactful, but this is stronger to me than Ellie saying,

And there's still discussion, to be clear, in the game of like what would be required, how many people would they meet, what they need, could they get it, etc. But just literally seeing it, seeing what this looks like, what the nature of this appeal looks like, and then an 8-3 vote?

And, you know, we can glean that the three or at least a couple of the three are the people closest to these people in the first place and that nobody else was moved to support this decision. Like it's even more fuel for Ellie as she sets out. I thought that was really, really smart. And I think in terms of what we hear from Ellie, you know, I talked last week about like,

How the no justice in the world, not unless we make it Thrones idea was very top of mind with Ellie in this part of the story. And that's obviously like a Littlefinger Sansa stretch of Thrones. I was also like really in this sequence thinking about Brienne, one of our faves, obviously our shared faves. And just that core like nothing's more hateful than failing to protect the one you love idea. Nothing is keeping Ellie inside of Jackson. Nothing. No, absolutely not.

This is more theater. Yeah, but what does it mean still? Like, we know she's going and she knows she's going. But what does it mean if she stands there and asks other people to go with her and they say no? That's really interesting to me. I love this point, and you made a version of it earlier, this idea of, like, she's casting about to see who has her back, who can she count on, everything.

everyone's letting her down except for Dina. And it makes the absence of Joel, who would, of course, automatically always have her back, that much more painful. But it's frustrating to... I agree with you. I both agree with you. And it's frustrating to me because I'm like, Ellie, you had five years.

to form community. And when we meet her in episode one, and it's like, Jesse's like, you should go to the day, you know, like you should go to the, I think actually Joel says it, but like Jesse's thinking about community. Dean is thinking about community. Joel's thinking about community. You should go to the dance. It's good for the community.

You should show up for the community. And Ellie's like, I got like, you know, she's she's at the dance, but she's hugging the wall. She's like, I mean, I love I love to hug a wall at a dance. So I'm not judging her for that. But like, yeah, but like, you know, Ellie had opportunity to more firmly ensconce herself inside of this community. And from what we can glean.

That is not something that she did. That she was, like, tucked inside her us of two with Joel until she wasn't. That she's made connections with Dina and Jesse and Tommy, but really not much beyond that. And that's okay. Like, I'm an antisocial person myself often. Like, my social circle can be quite small. But, like, then if you haven't been pouring into the community... She has. She's been there with you. You know? Then, like... Yeah. Yeah.

I think that's why... Too little, too late, almost. I am also... I definitely... I think that is part of how I watched this scene where, again, we get the pan to Gail and she's like, look at this little fucker. Yeah. Catherine Herrod, definitely on set, is like... Trying to pull this off. But I think, yeah, I'm watching this. I think there are plenty of things that are different about me and Ellie. But I'm like... I think I am in part watching this through the eyes of like...

Someone who has a few people who I care about a lot and, like, that's kind of it, you know? And that's sort of an interesting way to think about it. But, like, I guess this is another version to me of this scene of what we talked about earlier in the Gail Ellie hospital scene of, like, just a smattering of truth inside of the lie. And there's an almost, like...

There's an alchemy at play there that makes the kernel of truth even more notable than if the whole thing were true. And that line to me in this speech was, we have a word for these people and they're called strangers.

Because even though Ellie has a mission and an agenda, that's true. The thing that she is saying there is true, and it's certainly the defining truth of what Joel taught her. It's true, but it's also Maria would then say you were one stranger's too.

Exactly. Which is what she said to Joel, right? And that's why it's like, it's a solidification and a cementing of the worldview that Joel passed down to her, who's on the other side of that fence, like monsters. Who do we really need to fear? Why can't we make the fire? Other people. Like, that's one of the things that Ellie inherited. And I just loved hearing that. I got a chill when Ellie said they're called strangers. A chill. I want to slightly push back on something that you said about yourself, and we can cut this out of the pot if you don't want the people to know this, but like,

However you choose to run your social circles, what is true is that when you join the ringer and Mallory, let's say, is your manager, she will write you several lengthy introductory emails to like 20 of your new colleagues and they will be

brimming with personal details and fun facts about that person and the things you share in common with that person and all sorts of like, you can do that for, it's like you have trading cards for all of us and you know all this information about all of us because you have, you're socially fluent in a way that Dina is in a way that Ellie isn't. And again,

As a not very socially fluent person myself, I'm not trying to judge Ellie for that, but I'm just saying it can then be hard to rally people to your side if that's the case. So I just want to give Mallory her props. She's an excellent manager. Okay. Oh, Joe. They're playing baseball when they should be building that wall, man. It's not too...

Use some language I find repugnant. I love this. I love this scene. You think any of these young arms are available to help the current Baltimore Royals rotation? Asking for a friend. Is it not their year, Mallory? It's not their April. It's not been their April. I'll say that.

I listened to Graham who is from Jackson, Miami. Yeah. Just wanted to point out that three months after New Year's, three months after New Year's is still very much winter. Ain't no flowers or baseball till June at the earliest was Graham's point. Incredible. Let number nine, no matter how fucking cold it is, try to run to first base and just fall over and then let Gail in her lawn chair say, oh shit. Yeah.

I don't care what season it is. What do you want to tell us, Mallory Rubin, about the 2003 Detroit Tigers? Thank you for asking. I loved this detail. Yeah. I like, first of all, knowing that Gale is like a... From Michigan? Yeah, a Detroit Gale. Yeah.

The 03 Tigers are one of the worst teams in the history of not just baseball, but professional sport. Really? They lost 119 games, which was at that time the most losses in American League history. Not the most losses in Major League history. This is all modern era, of course. That honor obviously goes to the Mets. I assume that goes without saying, but just to say in case Ben Rock is listening, why do I mention this? Because that is no longer true.

In our world, where we have not yet suffered through the Cordyceps apocalypse, the 2024 Chicago White Sox, a division rival in the American League Central of the Detroit Tigers, last season took the anonymous crown of the most losses in the history of their American League title.

And do you think the Tigers were like, finally, people will leave us alone and then HBO Sunday night? In the world of The Last of Us, that never happened. The White Sox could not play the 2024 season because of the outbreak. And so the Tigers, the 03 Tigers, Jeremy Bonderman and the 03 Tigers for fucking ever will have the most losses in American League history. Rough. Tough stuff for Detroit. Thank you so much for that, Laura. Love to learn about baseball from you and basketball from Rob. Okay.

Gail, who is self-medicating her way through the mental health crisis that is Jackson, knows that Tommy is worried about Ellie. This is where Tommy says a thing about Gail seeing things that others don't, a la the Seraphite prophet, which I thought was really interesting. And this is where we had the liar conversation. Gail dropping bar after bar. I think they were walking side by side from the very start.

Which makes me think again of the opening credits, which makes me want to cry. So thanks a lot, Gail. Save a giant beer for me.

And then she says some people can't be saved. We got this really interesting email from our listener, Alyssa, who says,

We see Ellie internalize and struggle with these different definitions throughout the season one, but Jill loved Ellie without any conditions.

Without imposing any ideas of who she was or what her future would be, he just wanted her to have a future and to be happy and safe. There would be nothing more repulsive to him than what Gale is claiming about Ellie. This combination with Gale's correct observation that Joel was the one person Ellie could be honest with just hammered home how much Ellie has lost. Joel just wasn't just her father figure. He was her sense of safety with herself. Incredibly sad, really nasty work by Craig and Neil. Yeah.

That's great stuff. What do you want to say about this? Not to just channel Joel, but like, shouldn't Gail be validating Ellie or something? Yeah, this is like pretty grim. I really liked this, though. I thought that the, you know, no, I think they were walking side by side from...

The very start not only connects to a lot of what we've already discussed, but just again, the episode name, the path, this idea of like, were they walking the same path always? Did they have to? Like, do you have the ability to make a different decision and live a different life? Is it harder or easier to do that if the person that you were walking side by side with is gone? Like, do you carry it? Does that ghost just continue to walk next to you as you keep going step by step? Fascinating and obviously like just, you know, upsetting. I think also just like thinking about what the idea of

like some people just can't be saved. But what does it mean to save someone in this world? Like, when are the moments that that idea has come up before? You know, sometimes it's Tess's like season one, episode two, final parting word to Joel. Like, save who you can save and how there was like a gift imparted there. And then also like, well, what does it look like if you save who you can save? Kind of like, damn the cost, right? And then Joel, of course, like invoking that again. I saved her. That moment

to Joel is the thing, the trump card over everything else. And so like, I just think it's really interesting to compare how that language has come up elsewhere, but also like the depressing aspect of this, of like, what does it mean if somebody says you can't be saved? Like what if, isn't that as damning as trying to save someone at all costs? Somebody saying that you can't be saved at all? And is Gil right? Or is Gil wrong?

Exactly. Two and a half beers deep into a Little League baseball game. Exactly. And that's the theme of this episode overall, right? This question of like, is this... This episode asks us...

Is this a story about revenge or forgiveness? Is this a story about vengeance or mercy? Is this a story about cycles or progress? Like that is in that's present in every scene and every exchange throughout this episode. So it's appropriate then to make us think of it in a very stark framing like this. I love you bringing up Joel saying I saved her.

because we get this great line from Tommy about Joel's addiction to violence when he says, coming up with justifications and stuff, all he was doing was lashing out. So like the repeated, I saved her, something that perhaps Joel tells himself as he tries to sleep at night is his justification for this absolutely monstrous thing he did. As low as I am to leave...

this baseball game and Gail, who seems like she's having a great time, though clearly not on set. We have to go to some anti... This is a personal attack on Mallory Rubin. Some anti-converse propaganda, right? Yeah. I love this Dina and Ellie scene. This was just fantastic. Dina hilarious, Dina the best. Dina showing up and Ellie going, I'm just going to bed. And Dina saying, no, I'm not going to bed.

I don't think that's where you're going, right? Dina has a map. Dina has a supply list. Dina has a plan. She does. In Ellie's defense, I saw at least one rope and three cans of food. And one journal. Yes, a lot of just guns and ammo other than that. But I saw three cans of food. God damn it. Michael wants to remind us that Isabel Merced, who plays Dina, also played Dora the Explorer. This is just like an incredible email. Yeah.

learning the evil with something like vomitos. This is really funny. Okay. Winter coats for beds. Aviation Nation jackets for blankets. First aid kits. Battery. Bear spray. Were you thinking about Coach Ben and Mari when you heard bear spray? Absolutely. Didn't hear any mention of hot chocolate, though. Lamentable. All right. She's got Joel's gun.

Yep. She plans to kill Abby with Joel's gun. Dina says, tells Ellie she'll shoot her damn ass off, which of course Joel said to Ellie in season one. I was thinking about the Elton John song from My Father's Gun. Yeah. I think about that song a lot. It's on the Elizabethtown soundtrack, a perfect soundtrack to an imperfect movie. But just as this symbol of passage of Joel to Ellie, she's got the gun.

As the litter point out, she's at the front of the horse. They have her holding her rifle the same way that Joel held his rifle. All this stuff was very intentional to try to mark. You talked about the way in which Tommy is now in the Joel role inside of the community, but Ellie is Joel on the road. Yes. Joel on the it's just us mode, et cetera, et cetera. Yes.

Anything you want to say about Dina's thoughtfulness about Shimmer, about Boots, about the plan they, the route they plan to take, any of that? I think just like kind of stating the obvious, which was that in addition to this being a great scene for their relationship and their dynamic, you know, we already talked about the, you could have just asked, no, I actually didn't know that. Now you do wonderful stuff and the thoughtfulness and care that Dina is putting into prepping. But like, it is a video game adaptation and this was such a,

This was saturated with the video game experience of playing this game. What resources are you going to be able to collect? What do you need to have with you in your pack at all times? Fill your pockets with ammo. Everything else needs to fit inside a holster or your backpack. Or your backpack, yeah. I really loved that part of it. It's like honoring the source material and just what the experience of playing the game is and looting and looking and searching and trying, oh my God, I found one more shotgun pellet. I can

maybe survive. I really loved that part of it too. And then it made me think of like, you know, you did a beautiful job throughout season one of tracking what is in the pack at any point and like, what does that mean? The things they carried. Yeah. So that's, you know, of course that's on my mind too. And then to go from the two of them out to like, well, whoa, who helped you? Who's bringing all of that with? And the Seth, like the Seth moment, like,

I think, like, everything you said about what we should be maybe thinking about and what Ellie should be confronting to find herself aligned with Seth in the council, you feel that here, obviously, right, as well. Like, if you're sharing common ground with a person that you despise and actually hold in low esteem, like, is that a bad sign? What does that mean? The other thing, the other part of that, though, to me, like, the...

This is, I guess, like a more charitable way of potentially processing it. It's like when he shakes out, when he sticks out his hand and Ellie, you know, there's the great little exchange about the with Janine and the stable is like sympathetic to our cause. Our cause? You're the one who gave the us speech, not me. But when Seth sticks out his hand and Ellie is like takes a beat, but then decides to shake it.

Whether it's Seth choosing to speak up on behalf of Joel, a person who embarrassed him, or Ellie deciding that she will shake the hand of a person whose beliefs are in direct opposition to the way that she wants to live her life...

There's something there about the show's interest in the idea of forgiveness and the capacity for forgiveness that I think is also present and very, very interesting. Yeah, Neil saying people are complicated. I think it's both. I think you can see this as ominous of Ellie and Seth are in line, that's ominous. But also hopeful in terms of can we find... Was his apology genuine over steak sandwiches? Can we...

find common cause with people we disagree with. Some people would say no. Some people would say yes. It's quite complicated. We're not going to solve it on this podcast. Two things I want to say. Number one, I want to shout out Ellie's hyper-independence, which is how you would describe her whole like, no, I didn't know I could ask for help sort of thing. I'm not a therapist.

That is a classic... Add it to the list, folks. That is a classic trauma response. It is unsurprising that she'd be a hyper-independent person. And the other thing I want to say, I just forgot to mention this, but to the tune of Malé Rubin, socially fluent person, Tommy walking up and talking to...

about the Tigers is the most Molly Rubin coded thing I've ever seen. I'm sure it's like very ringer coded, but I've just seen you do that a million times with someone where you're like, so-and-so roots for this team. Let me say five specific things about that. Not that it's calculated, but it's just something you can naturally do. Okay. I'm prepared with NFL draft takes this week for anyone I might encounter. Yeah.

Craig Mazin throws a funeral for all of us. Oh my god, dude. I loved this. This was gorgeous. Visually gorgeous and also emotionally gorgeous sequence. The golden hour moment. Beautiful. There is a moment in the game where Ellie goes to visit the grave. It's shot quite differently and she does not bring coffee beads to the grave and stuff like that. Yeah.

Our listener Nerf, true story, that's their name, says, the song playing while Ellie is at Joel's grave is from the OG game soundtrack and season one soundtrack, and it's called The Choice. Ellie visiting Joel's grave before leaving solidifies her choice to take the path to Seattle and the path to revenge. Love that. I loved...

As a parallel and a point of contrast, like, I think it's difficult to see this many headstones and not think of where we first were introduced to Abbey in front of all of those freshly dug graves. I think that, as previously stated, I'm not an expert on composting, but one of the things that having a... Who knows what should be under the graves? There's not a garden above. But one of the things that seeing something like this, like, we have...

we have dedicated this space for our dead. Like, I thought that this was really striking, this idea that you would have a place to visit and that, like,

it again speaks to that idea of permanence. Like, the people who are buried there probably call this place home. They will remain there for the people who are going to still try to stay here and rebuild and then be able to visit them. Like, this just idea of a place to return and a place for Joel to rest I thought was really lovely. And obviously, just seeing Joel Miller, beloved brother and father, made me fucking weep. And then Ellie putting the coffee beans down, which, you know, she memorably said in season one smelled coffee to her like...

burnt shit. And we, as coffee enthusiasts and Joel, knew the error of her ways. It's like a little, like Ellie doesn't love coffee, but it's a thing Joel loved and it's a precious thing in this world. And so to be able to like sprinkle that thing that he loved on his grave and even though there are tears in her eyes, like just a little smile, I thought that was just absolutely beautiful, beautiful moment. Yeah.

Not to completely wreck the mood, but I just want to point out one thing. To Ellie, for whom things are about to get very confusing on the road. Dina has put on makeup for this road trip. Yeah. That doesn't mean nothing, Ellie. Just want you to mark that. Dina has mascara and eyeliner were involved in the packing for this trip. Okay, here we go. And in the rundown of all the things they needed to find space for, we have a fucking tent. Yeah. So that we can cozy on up next to each other. And we shall do this. Okay. Okay.

Craig Mason says, characters grieve Joel. I wanted us to grieve him too. Love that. That's what this whole episode feels like. That's what the scene definitely feels like. Road trip time. Yes. We get shots of gorgeous natural splendor as Ellie and Dina ride away from Jackson towards Seattle. We got multiple well-actually emails from people who live both in Wyoming and Seattle about some of the geography here. This is like when Thor is using the tube and...

I mean, this is like, again, I say this all the time. This is like when Scott Lang came back from Alcatraz and went through the Marin Headlands. It was one of the most nonsensical things I've ever seen in any movie, let alone a Marvel movie. But when we're locals, these are the things we suffer through on the screen. It is gorgeous. Beautiful. For those of us who didn't know that they were going in the wrong direction, it's absolutely beautiful. Yeah.

And our listener Madeline pointed out not just that Ellie's at the front of the horse, but...

which the director pointed out uh in the joel position but also that that dina's in the le position of like let's play games yeah how can i crack through this how can i jolly you out of this mood yes uh it's not pun based but it's still sort of like this very lively like play with me sort of uh attitude great observation until we get to the first person killed

Cheerful topic. What do you make of this Ellie telling the story of Brian in Kansas City?

to Dina moment. I mean, I was more interested in what she didn't share, which was talking about Riley. You know, it just says, like, the first one is too fucked up. And, you know, I think part of that is, like, it is a really heavy thing and maybe something that she needs to... But also to think that this is the romantic evolution of their relationship aside, like, her closest friend and the idea that maybe she hasn't talked about what she went through with Riley with her is so notable to me. And obviously then, like, what it would mean to share how she felt about Riley with Dina, a person who she is...

falling in love with, is in love with. Fascinating. So yeah, what did you make of the Joel Bryan part of it?

I mean, correct me if I'm wrong. I went back and rewatched this. Okay, I'm right. Okay, good. I'm like, sometimes. Okay, anyway. So she says, I came up behind him. I raised my gun and, oh, yeah. Okay. So Ellie shot Brian, who was attacking Joel. She didn't kill him. Right? Joel did the killing for her. She was around the corner crying, which no judgment. I don't blame you. Perhaps she believed she was responsible for his death.

But I, you know, if Joel had any opportunity to kill this guy, he would have. But the, oh, yeah, covers a lot of ground here. She also leaves out the part where Brian is crying and begging to see his mom. Yes. And just sort of, like, saying, we don't have to fight. I'm so sorry. Didn't know. Please don't. Please don't. I can't feel my legs. Let's figure it out. Yeah, like, all this sort of stuff. So, the, oh, yeah, covers a lot of things. But, like, I would just say...

this is not the first person. I mean, obviously leaving out Riley or whatever. Like I, I, I found it very interesting. So yeah. To the point of what is she sharing with Dina? Like this is a, she's a liar. This is a lie. And it's, but it's also like the idea that in her mind and her memory, the things that she and Joel like did together have just merged and morphed into one, one piece of behavior, one action. That's like fascinating. Where's the dog?

They die all the time, and we're about to see that in a little bit. Okay, so worth noting that this whole trip isn't really meaningfully present in the game. Instead, you spend 900 hours trying to get over a wall into Seattle. How long did it take you to get over that wall into Seattle, Mallory? Oh, my God. I mean, as you know, I'm an incredibly slow player in general, in part because I really like to explore every possible area, and in part because I'm just incredibly bad at the game, though I'm having a blast and really love it. Yeah.

Yeah, I don't know. Maybe when I finish, I'll look back and try to see how much time that took. Quite a while. As I've mentioned, I'm watching a playthrough that is by nature economical in its movements. Yes. I was like, how are we still trying to get over this wall to Seattle? I thought this was a playthrough. Anyway, okay. Tent time. They're all wet in the tent together.

Yes. Phrasing. It's not quite golden hour, but the yellow tent and the little lantern makes it a golden moment for the two of them. And Dina wants to talk about the kiss. This is adapted from an earlier scene in the game. What do you want to say? Okay, so this is really interesting to me. Craig talking about Dina. I mean, this is very cute. But also if you're Ellie...

Dina is playing with her, teasing her, flirting, all this sort of stuff like that, but not being straightforward, you know, saying she's not gay, saying she wasn't that high, all this sort of stuff. Craig was saying in the official podcast, like, that he's... If one is frustrated with Dina's behavior here, he is frustrated, too. This is frustrating to see. I thought our listener, John, wrote a really interesting email where he wrote...

It's a really believable detail for moving the apocalypse from 2013 to 2003 that Dina would be less likely to understand bisexuality as a thing. Of course, it's existed forever, but I feel like that 10 years was so major in the mainstreaming and normalization of it, and it tracks that there would be less conversation about it in this version of 2029. So Dina is in this process of... It is both... She is being like...

I don't know, mean is what I want to say, but she is toying, I would say, slightly with Ellie in this, but also, I think, trying to figure herself out in a way that is very believable and understandable and human. Yeah, I think in a way that the show continues to excel in, this just felt so real and right to me, the way that young people, and I guess people really of any age, behave with each other. It had a little bit more of the like,

throw a go-gurt at the head of the person you have a crush on in, like, the middle school cafeteria energy maybe than when you've aged out of that particular behavior. But... Yeah. Yeah, there was... I think it was, like, overtly flirtatious. You know, I wasn't that high. I wasn't that high, yeah. But also still then with, like, the wall around... We've talked about Dina. We think about Dina and especially show Dina as this, like, very extroverted, like, exuberant person. And...

still protecting herself too. Like, Dina's not only figuring out how she feels, but like, what does Ellie feel about her? A six! Fuck you, six! You gotta get the guards back! Or you have to say like, well, teach me. Like, one or the other. It has to get really sexy really quickly or you need to protect yourself because like, a six hurts. It hurts!

She says she already went back to Jesse. She sure did. There's that. There is that. Okay. Then we encounter the dead Seraphites on the road and in the brush. Dina, who we've seen encounter a lot of violence already, vomits from this. Something about this is particularly nausea-inducing to her. And Ellie is so certain.

Yeah. If this was fucking them, if Abby and her crew did this to people, to kids, dot, dot, dot, right? And I want to circle back to Tommy saying to Gail that Joel was always coming up with justifications and stuff. All he was doing was lashing out. So this, oh, it's not just about me. It's not just about what Abby and her friends did to Joel. Right.

They're killing kids on the road. Right. They're monsters. Additional validation. Yeah. Like, I am vindicated in what I do before I even do it based on an absence of actual facts. Yeah. Great stuff. Anything you want to say about our entrance into Seattle here or the glimpse we see of Manny or the very troubling...

tanks, big fuck-off guns, lots of people walking down the street. You know, it's worrying. I love the recurring Curtis and Viper motif. We get the two quiet. Curtis or Viper, both in all four movies. And then later, you know... Bella is so funny. Really good. The way she's... They said both in all four movies. Yeah. Just...

Distractedly. So funny. I was just, that was just me. I was trying to sound like a badass. You don't need to try great stuff. So that was all really good. I think also just like walking or moving forward on Shimmer on a crowded overpass, like the wreckage of all the cars abandoned during the outbreak made me think it takes us back to the beginning again. Like,

setting out with Joel and Tess through Boston and like moving through the overpasses there. So it's like kind of a visual that cements the map and the character sets and the passage of time. Trying to get into Kansas City. Yeah, exactly. Yeah, I'm always struck in the world too. Like, I mean, Ellie looks down at Seattle and talks about how beautiful it is, but I'm always struck, you know, you rightly called out when they're in motion, all of these beautiful directionally inaccurate, but like beautiful. This does in like...

it's always really striking in the show when anything that used to be built by people is just like decrepit and derelict and can't be rebuilt and it's this like monument to like the thing we used to have that crumbled in front of us and then when you're out in this natural space in the natural world which the humans never touched it is actually resplendent so looking out at Seattle it's like fuck

Ellie's saying it's beautiful. I'm like, that's good. That's a tangly mess to make your way through. And like, then the mess, but like the way that nature is devouring the buildings, which we saw before. Yeah. Reclaiming. Very beautiful. Totally. And like Manny, um, up in the space needle, sick assignment.

Seems like he's really improved his attitude. Seems like he sucks. Across episodes. And then, yeah, just like the stomping of the boots. You know, not only is this not the small group, the wolves, that maybe Dina and Ellie had expected, this is like very reminiscent of seeing the Fedra tanks regroup

rolling through Kansas City that Kathleen and her crew had taken over. Like, you know, not only the guns and the artillery, like, the helmets. It's just like they're kitted out in full and ready for fucking war. And two people we care about are riding in on a horse to challenge them. Like, we should be terrified. Terrified. With love and respect, I believe in women. Two 19-year-old girls. Yeah.

It's nothing to do with their gender. It's just like they're 19-year-old girls on their way to tackle an army. Oops! Also, an army, I just want to shout out the wolves and their branding. Because a listener to the Prestige feed wrote in talking about who has time to embroider a backpack in the apocalypse. They're embroidering backpacks. They're painting their helmets. They're just sort of like, we want you to know who we are. Dino's drawing was beautiful, by the way. Yeah, absolutely. Really captured the essence of that wolf. This is something she and Ellie can bond about. They're both artists. Okay.

Spores galore. This is usually where I share a mushroom recipe, but I just want to shout out our listener, Shani, who wrote in about, like, poisonous mushrooms you shouldn't eat. And I just really liked this sentence. My fave avoids these mushroom in the wild, a.k.a. the one you can only eat once. The destroying angel, metal AF. It's white with a cute little skirt, but don't be fooled. You'll be dead in 24 hours. It's giving Abby. Okay.

So thanks for that email, Sean. Incredible. Okay, so that's it for our spoiler-free section. Anything you want to add before we head into spoilers? I don't think so. I can't wait for episode four. Hit that massive spoiler warning. All right. I assume that'll be replaced by an actual sound effect. We can just keep that. That's great.

Stop listening if you don't want to hear about things that have not yet happened in the show. Bye. That happened in the game. We love you. We'll see you next week. Bye. Okay. We're going to zoom through this really quickly because guess what? We've gone long. Oh, well. Okay. So I alluded to this last week, but now that you know a bit more about what happens in the game, no mention of Owen and Mel's pregnancy revisited now that you know what happens between Mel and Ellie in the game. Harrowing stuff.

Because it's not meant... My question for this, and Rob and I talked about this a little bit, will it be a surprise reveal as it is for Ellie will be a surprise reveal for us. For us as well. Yeah. God, I mean...

Entirely possible. If you're listening to this, Ellie kills Mel and it's upsetting. Realizes that she's pregnant. Which, of course, we know already in the game at that point, but Ellie does not. It's really horrible. You and Rob talked about this last week and he posed the question of, like, is this too horrific? Like, is it possible that they're actually not going to do this? Yeah.

I don't know. I mean, I think that the story is interested in interrogating what happens if you do a horrific thing. So I'm still expecting this to happen. I think the question of whether we, you know, seeing Manny, we didn't get Abby, but we do see Manny. Are we going to spend time with the wolves across these episodes? Still have questions of like, yeah, how the...

structure the rest of the season will play out. But I think it's entirely possible that we still find out before Ellie and Mel have the encounter at the aquarium and then that happens. I guess it's possible that they could just make a real adaptive change there. But I think if they don't do that, fans would be like, I think really would take umbrage with the change. So, okay. I don't know. Pregnant women. Yeah. Yeah.

What about doesthedogdie.com, which is a real website? You can go visit and type in something to find out if the dog dies. Our listener, Catherine, you just let me know over the weekend or last Friday, I think it was, that you had to kill a dog. You have to. You have to do it. And then you switch to Abby and the dog is yours. The dog is the Salt Lake Cruiser. I mean, the wolves have a bunch of dogs, but this Alice...

Is like a part of your life. And like, even just you're playing catch with like, you're playing fetch with another dog in Seattle. And like, it's just this, I thought this was not only having to do it, but then forging the relationship with the dog through a different character perspective.

absolutely diabolical. I texted you about it. I sent a note to our colleague Riley McAtee, who's a huge fan of the game, and I texted him about the dog specifically, and he was like, wait, that's what you were texting me about in that stretch? Because that is, of course, also when the metal death happens. And then soon thereafter, of course...

The Jesse stuff. The Jesse stuff I think I want to hold. Let's talk about it next week. Yes. I want to get into that, what Dina says about his sadness and where we think the show is going with all this. I'm very fascinated. Anything to say here about Tommy not heading to Seattle before Ellie? Or if he does, we don't know about it. It's just like it's not clear what's going on there. Our listener John wrote in. I really liked this email. He said...

Removing Tommy from the pursuit as a ticking clock actually helps the story because in the game you have these long leisurely stretches, take on me, the temple that pushed the romantic road trip vibe forward and always felt like they clashed a little. Now the ticking clock is the encroachment of the WLF itself, which works nicely in the Hitchcockian sense of suspense, not surprised.

And thematically, it gives the games thematic hook. No, seriously, Ellie, you can go home and enjoy your life with this amazing woman right now. More time to assert itself before Ellie's trauma is activated and locked in. So yeah, Ellie and Dina hanging out and playing a song on the guitar is not like, hey, where's Tommy? Is Tommy okay?

Maria said, do one thing, bring Tommy home. We don't, like, that's not a concern. Do you think they're still going to send, do you think they're still going to reveal that Tommy went before her? Do you think Tommy's going to come after her? What do you think? I'm currently, I definitely think Tommy still has to go. I agree that, like,

Haunting Tommy's steps and finding, you know, bags and blood and clues and like, oh, Tommy was here. Let's just to the next location works really well in the game. And I don't think would work as well on the show. I think also like Tommy setting out on his own first is just a much more complicated thing for him to do in the show universe where he has his son. Yeah. But...

Everything we heard him say in this episode about the difference between vengeance and trying to save somebody applies to going to try to help Ellie after realizing she left. So him going after her to try to do what Joel would have done and make sure she's okay, that feels like in the universe of the show a way for all of this to still happen, but in a sequence that is more appropriate for where we find the characters in this adaptation. Brilliant.

the Seraphites. This is something we want to talk about. We won't linger too long here necessarily, but to introduce the Seraphites who are a terrifying aspect of the game, whose whistle, as you alluded to earlier, sends a chill down the backs of gamers as like, we're not a monolith, right? And so there's a faction of the Seraphites who are just trying to leave

and live their life peacefully. There's all this implication or information about the prophet is the speaker that comes up, but the way in which they turn into this like fundamentalist cult, which is a word that Neil used from the outside of the cult, this fundamentalist, hardline, violent group, the boogeyman to a certain degree,

I love this nuance of introducing, you know, again, to the monsters were the monsters. Like it's from inside of the perspective of these Seraphites, like,

They're just trying to find peace for themselves in this world. Yeah, I thought this was fascinating. Like, I love the nuance of inside of any group. Jackson, the Seraphites, the wolves, that not everybody wants the same thing, that some people want to just escape the violence. They don't want to pursue it. All of that makes sense.

a ton of sense to me. I think obviously some of the Seraphites who we spend the most time with in the game in the Abbey stretch are Yara and Lev, characters who have left the group and are trying to live a different way. So it makes sense to me to show that variance. I think that in part because of our connection to Yara and Lev and the horrors that their fellow Seraphites inflicted on them,

Not to mention what we go through when we're Abby and Ellie facing them. It's just a fascinating choice to give us a much more like, oh, no, wait, maybe are they the good guys and the wolves or the bad guys initial glimpse before, I assume, still ultimately disrupting that. And so my assumption is that it's like both...

To make sure we understand right away that not everybody is evil and violent and there are people inside of any group who wants to live another way. But also just to kind of play on our expectation and then disrupt that assumption we might make that the wolves are the bad guys in this other group is like the – yeah, they're oppositional forces. They're the Amish, man. But also bad to someone else. Yeah.

They're just the Amish trying to live their lives. They're not. Okay, so... Oh, man. Last but not least, this really annoys me to put this in the spoiler section because I know this, but even if I hadn't, I'm always on pregnancy watch. So, well, not really. I don't like to assume that characters are pregnant, but Dina vomits here. Yeah. Talks about having gone back to jealousy. Dina is pregnant. And Rob was asking on Prestige, like, are they going to remove the Dina pregnancy as well? You can't. You literally can't. I don't understand how you could. Anyway...

She vomits. She's like, I'm not sure why. It must smell worse than any other carnage I've ever experienced. So that is pregnancy watch with Dina. The three-month time jump and pregnancy math means that Dina has to have sex with Jesse after kissing Ellie. I'm not an OBGYN. You can email me at hopsanddragonsgmail.com if you disagree with that statement. So maybe this is why they moved the sex scene in the girl house to later because...

you can meet Dina and figure your shit out and have sex with Ellie and then go back to Jesse and go back to Ellie. Like, that is fine. You're a 19-year-old girl. You're figuring shit out. That's fine. But, like, maybe from a... If we were, like, to invest in the Ellie and Dina love story... Yeah. Maybe it's like, I kissed a girl. No, I went back to my boyfriend. Yeah.

No, now I'm doubling down and investing in this girl that I'm interested in. We're having sex and we're cementing our relationship. So that makes sense to me for a reason to move the sex scene out of the girl house into presumably later in the season. I don't think they're – I agree. We got some emails being like, are they not going to – I don't think they're not going to do it. There's no indication as far as that to me. But pregnancy math.

I think is part of the problem here. So, yeah. That sounds right to me. I mean, my expectation now that we're sharing a tent and we're on the road together is that we're having sex next episode before other people join us on the road. That would be my guess. I have no clue, but that would be my expectation and my hope. Okay, I will say this. We don't know, but...

We had the joy of meeting Director Kate Herron of next week's episode at the after party from the premiere. And she did not tell us anything about the episode she directed because we told her that we didn't play the game. But she did tell us that her friend knew exactly which moment in the game that she had directed. Yeah. And I also agree with you. I think we are going to have some Tina. I can't wait. I can't wait. In next week's episode.

Shout out Kate Herron, Loki director and absolute legend. I'm really excited to see what Kate does with The Last of Us. Cannot wait. All right. That's it. We did it. Oh my goodness. A blast yet again. Another lengthy pod from us who could have guessed it. It's a rich text. Certainly not Steve Allman and John Richter who are working on this with us today and rolled their eyes when we said maybe we'd make it a shorter one. Um,

Thank you to them. Thank you to Arjuna Ramgopal always for his work. Thank you to Jomia Ditter on the social. Remember, most of all, the fungus loves too. And we'll see you next week. Bye!