'The Rings of Power' Season 2 Mini-Mailbag
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The beacons are lit! Gun knuckles for eight! And Rohan will answer.

Hello and welcome to House of R. I'm Joanna Robinson. That was the Peter Jackson Lord of the Rings film you just heard, but we are talking about Rings of Power. I'll explain myself in a second. Join me today to answer some of your pressing questions about Rings of Power, season two, episodes one through three, or other things Rings of Power related. It is... Hi, Ruben. Hi, Mallory. How you doing? Joe.

You tell old Maldrick everything you know about Sauron. It's mailbag time. It's mailbag time. Wow, Maldrick. We'll see if that sticks for you. We're mailbagging today. And why did we start with the beacons being lit? There isn't a ton of mail-related stuff. All we have is the High King...

sending a message that did not get where it needed to go uh you know in the rings of power so i couldn't find a ton of mail no one's sending ravens ravens would solve a lot of problems in middle earth is all i have to say so you know think about it invest just text kella brimbor right now btw that hot guy heads up it's the dark lord sorry to tell you this

You are entertaining the Dark Lord. Okay. What are we here today to do? We're here to answer your questions that you might have sent to hobbitsanddragons at gmail.com. That's what we're doing.

Elsewhere in the ringerverse, the Midnight Boys, pew pew, I believe are also mailbagging today. I believe that's the case, or this week as it were. Star Wars Outlaws first impressions from button mash team. Terminator, zero coverage from the mint edition. Where, as I mentioned last week, Timothy Oliphant is voicing in Terminator. Actually, I've heard it's really good. I haven't checked it out yet, but I've been hearing from people that it's like...

I mean, the bar is low on the Terminator franchise sometimes, but apparently this is like a really good timey-wimey story. And you and I love...

Love a timey-wimey story. A timey-wimey story. As for us, we'll be back at the end of the week, of course, covering episode four of Rings of Power. We're in a real rings space for a couple weeks here. And then, you know, Agatha's showing up. There's going to be witch stuff. There's going to be all kinds of stuff. But we are like, we get to like really dedicate ourselves to rings for a couple weeks, which is fun. How are you feeling about it, Mallory?

Thrilled. I plan to go right from talking about rings of power with you to talking about the Orioles claiming their World Series ring into talking about the Ravens claiming their Super Bowl ring. So it's rings all the time for me. Rings o'clock. Rings o'clock. How are the Orioles doing? Should we talk about that? Well, you know, they're doing great.

Hanging on. Okay. The injury curse. It's like the blight on the great tree, you know, the injuries. So we need a little of that Mithril to come into play here. Mithril for the Orioles. For the final push. Get healthy for the playoffs, and then who knows? Who knows? Anything can happen in October. Well, if you've got a diplomat like Elrond to send to the dwarves, we'll see if we can make that happen. Okay.

Oh, Ruben, that's a lot going on. Yeah. Star Wars, Terminator, Rings of Power, all this kind of stuff. How can folks get track of everything that's happening? Thanks for asking. Here's the rundown. One, follow the pods. Follow House of R, follow the Ringiverse on Spotify or wherever you get your podcasts.

Then follow the Ringiverse YouTube channel because full video episodes of House of R and Midnight Boys are available for you on both Spotify and the Ringiverse YouTube channel. While you're at it, follow the Ringiverse on the social media platform of your choosing. We are on Instagram, TikTok, Twitter, and then Joe already mentioned the inbox. This is a mailbag episode, so you know the inbox is open.

Send us your emails. Send us your thoughts on this Rings of Power season. Send us your thoughts on Agatha, Penguin, Craven the Hutt, Venom, all of the stuff. Beetlejuice, Beetlejuice, whatever's going on. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Everything. Everything. Love it. Okay.

Oh, also, a slight other promo, I guess, while I'm here. Yeah. We did not cover Alien Romulus, and you haven't seen it yet, right? I know you've seen every other Alien movie. Okay. Trial by Content is covering Alien Romulus and the art or curse of digital resurrection over on Trial by Content. So I've had some people asking me for my Alien Romulus take. I don't know why they want that from me. But if you do, Trial by Content is where you will find that this week. Okay. Wonderful.

It's not quite...

Disa and Doran. But our listeners, Dina and Donnie, are celebrating an eighth anniversary. And Donnie asked if we could just shout out Dina on their anniversary. So happy anniversary to Dina and Donnie. Happy anniversary, Dina. Yeah. Happy anniversary, Donnie. Exactly. They had this like really sick inflatable dragon thing at their anniversary party. Very cool. Very House of Arcour. Like a bouncy castle? It was like an inflatable dragon that you could pose with. Oh, fantastic. Yeah. Right.

Right? Why don't we have one of those? I don't know. Why is it in the background right now is my question. Okay. Just a fun fact. I forgot to mention it on Friday, but I think it's fun. Benjamin Walker, who is playing High King Gil-Gallad, also is doing the voice for Damrod the Hill Troll. And...

And I hope similar to similar to the video footage we got of Benedict Cumberbatch crawling around the floor as Smaug, I can't wait to see Ben Walker just really going for it in the sound booth playing the hill troll. So what do you think was more exciting, getting to sing a beautiful dirge or getting to play a hill troll? I mean,

Singing in Quenya is always pretty exciting, but I don't know. Like 1A, 1B? Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's a tie. It's a real tie. Okay, spoiler warning today. This is not really – we are mainly keeping this to season two, episodes one through three. Again, our spoiler warnings on Rings of Power are kind of complicated. We'll get into it fully on the episode four breakdowns or what we plan to talk about.

As Mal mentioned last Friday, we're not going to pretend that you haven't seen the Lord of the Rings trilogy by Peter Jackson or you are not aware of the basic plot points of those films. But there's some stuff that happens between this show and that that is in the text that we won't get too much into until I think our last question, maybe two of the questions we have today, and we will give you warning when we get there. Does that sound right and fair and just, Molly Rubin?

I think so. This is always a tougher one. It is. But yeah, if we're going to get into some future things, we'll note it. And if they feel like things that you probably already know about, then safe waters, warm waters. Come on in, move your hand around, watch the fish jump and, you know. Pull the fish out of the water in a somewhat creepy way. Cure Denny's always with us. Okay. Um...

Based on a dumb Slack joke I made when we said we were doing a mailbag episode. I thought it was brilliant. Genuinely. This is the audio that's taking us into our mailbag. Baggins. Baggins.

It's a Shire mailbaggins. That's what we're doing today. Shire mailbaggins. Coined by you. Here we are. In Slack. Genius among us. That was piercing in the eardrum. I gotta say. That came in quite hot. Steve is a gem and does a lot of pre-record audio calibrations with us because he's always thinking of our well-being and rarely are we surprised then once we sit down to record. But that one took my breath away.

um as the Nazgul are want to do okay fitting so we're starting sort of with like a basic we've talked about this a few other times before but just in case there are new folks joining us we thought we'd start with this question from Sarah Sarah who thanked us for many many podcasts I mean it's a mailbag we know the cost coming and yet we're surprised came in hot okay um

Sarah, who thanked us for hours and hours of podcasts because she just we hear a lot from new moms who are like up all hours of the night and they're up with their kids and new dads, too. And they're like, thanks for the gajillion hours of podcasting helping me through that. So anyway, Sarah, who just had a baby.

was asking us, when did these stories, meaning Tolkien, come into your lives? When would be an appropriate time to read the text with her daughter or Sarah's daughter? And do they make kid-friendly thinking picture book versions that Tolkien fans endorse? Mallory Rubin, what do you want to say? Okay, why don't we start with our respective origins and then we can hit the next part of that. Yeah, it's nice to chat about this again for anyone who's new to The Ring's party. I...

love Lord of the Rings. I've loved Lord of the Rings for a long time. And my dad was a massive Tolkien fan, massive. So it's like one of his favorite stories ever, something that he was always fond of and talking about. When I was a kid, my parents were divorced. So at my dad's house, there's this like little bookshelf in my room that my dad built and he put filled with books and like never, no pressure, no nothing. They were just there for me, like waiting to be discovered when I wanted to discover them. And The Hobbit was one of those books.

I was in elementary school, a very slowly developing reader. And I was in like in fourth grade, starting fifth grade, like a lower reading group. And when I got bumped up to the higher reading group, The Hobbit was the first book that I read as part of that reading group. And so like not only do I love the story and I love the world, but I have this like really...

keen and strong and powerful association with it is like when I started to build confidence as a reader, you know, and like on my own feel like more emboldened to spend time with the printed page and reading and like learning and discovering. So that was really like meaningful and wonderful. That was fifth grade. And then we read Fellowship in middle school. And I was so riveted by it. I couldn't put it down. I like got in trouble one day at

Hebrew school because I was reading it under my desk because I didn't want to put it away. And that's like the early days with the books. The movies came out. How old would you say you were? So that was like, Hobbit was when I was 10. And then when I read Fellowship, it must have been seventh grade reading. So yeah, that would have been when I was 12. And we didn't, I don't recall us reading

the other two books in the trilogy as part of like our middle school reading curriculum only fellowship, which is a little odd. So then I w I would have read those for the first time on my own after that. Um, the movies, the Peter Jackson films came out when I was in high school. Obviously they came out as we all remember fondly.

Just like fucking clockwork, December after December, three years in a row. They don't do it like that anymore, folks. They don't do it like that anymore. What a time that was. And I went to see each of those movies with my dad and my stepmom at the theater. It was incredible. I have this really fond memory of we went back to my dad's house after my stepmom was like super worried about Sam, who among us, right? And I just remember us standing around like the little island in the kitchen and my dad saying, oh, honey.

There's more in store for Samwise Gamgee. It was just like a thing the family loved to share. And now every holiday season used to be Thanksgiving. The last couple of years, it ended up being like the Christmas New Year window. Adam and I watch. An influencer. It could be. My inclination was just because of like limited holiday free time and scheduling. But I think it's probably the Joanna Robinson effect. If I stare at all the facts and all the variables, Adam and I watch the extended editions every year. It's like our

favorite annual tradition. So it's just one of the worlds I love most. And it's the first story I remember really like falling in love with. The first world and fictional universe that I couldn't wait to go back to and revisit and think about and spend time in and share with people I loved. So it's a very special story to me. It's one of the joys of my life to get to visit Middle Earth with you. Joanna, please tell us about your Tolkien.

Mike, my origin starts a little later. I was not a Tolkien reader when I was younger. We read like C.S. Lewis, definitely. My sister might have read Tolkien, but I was not reading Tolkien. When I got to college, my freshman year of college, my boyfriend freshman year had like this Lord of the Rings poster on his ceiling, which like of the books, because the movies weren't out yet, of like all the different like characters. And yeah,

Um, so he was like really into it and, and like wanted to share it with me. And so then I like went to like walked over to the borders of Barnes and Noble or whatever and like bought, bought my first of now many box sets of Lord of the Rings that I have. Um, and I read the books and that was like, and then the movie started coming out like one after another. I would watch them. I would go home for Christmas every year and watch them with like my high school friends. Um,

you know, we would come home for Christmas and we'd line up at this one theater and stand in line. And I remember for Return of the King, it was raining. So the whole theater, you know, we stood in line for a really long time. The whole theater, this is a massive, massive theater in Inverne County that's now closed. But like the whole theater was just full of like people who were just like steaming. Like because the theater was super warm and we were all cold and like wet from the rain. So all of our jeans were like,

Yeah. I was like, that's how we all sat through return to the King. Worth it. Wonderful. goodness. I do remember similar to your, your story about Sam. I remember I went to go see fellowship with my family. Like, you know, one of the, like, cause I saw it multiple times at theaters, obviously. And, um, I was, I remember we were out to sushi with my mom, my dad, my sister. And, uh, and my mom was like, okay, just tell me is like, it's getting off really dead. Um,

And I was just like, we were like, do you, I mean, do you want us to tell you? Stay tuned to find out. Like, do you want to know? It's like one of my early interactions with someone being like, explain someone who has read the books, what happens to, you know, et cetera. Anyway. And then, yeah, I just loved those films so much. I love the books so much. And then I started rereading them, rereading them, and then rewatching the films every year at Christmas, the extended editions, etc.

And that is also one of my favorite holiday traditions. It's funny. My nephew – so I don't know, like, sort of, like, how old was I when I started – you know, I don't have that data. Yeah.

but sort of trying to calibrate your ages with my nephew who's 13 had previously tried Lord of the Rings and didn't like get into it but tried again now and he's a big reader really really big reader but got read it now and really likes it so or I don't know about really likes it but like isn't liking it a lot um and

and so I would say around there, like 12, 13, because the hobbits for younger ages, right. You can definitely do the hobbit earlier. Yeah. And then like, I would say 12, 13, something like that, uh, depending on your meeting level and your interests or whatever, uh, it's where the Lord of the Rings as for like stuff that's kid friendly. Um, I would heartily recommend the, the, the Bakshi animated, uh, Lord of the Rings, uh, as an early entry point, 1978, uh, animated, um, Lord of the Rings, uh,

very fascinating artifact. But, like, kind of just a really gentle way to get into the world. Any suggestions from you, Mallory Urban? Beyond that, which I also agree is worth checking out, not really. I have, in general, I think, a difficult time gauging the right age to read. Something I'm always fascinated now, like my friends who have kids, I am so interested in when they choose to introduce their kids to Harry because...

It's pretty consistently a lot younger than I would have guessed just based on the emotional trauma that awaits. But I just have I'd have no feel for that. And I think like obviously some of that is what your your particular child seems ready for and inclined toward.

In terms of like illustrated editions, you know, there are a number of different illustrated editions of the text, but it's different than like, I think the spirit of the prompt, like picture books. Yeah, like, cause I, I mean, I definitely had versions of like,

I have a book somewhere on my shelf that's, like, classics to read aloud to your children, which, like, my dad would, like, read, like, kid versions of, like, Romeo and Juliet and, like, whatever else to us that, you know, in language that we could understand, but we would understand, like, the basic plot of. Yeah. So I don't have any...

One thing I think is nice is like, you know, there again, there are a number of different illustrated editions over the years. They're like the Alan Lee illustrated editions. Just the last few years, they came out with those newer illustrated editions. Now for like, they're like total.

tomes, you know? So I don't know that like a 11 year old is going to sit there with that, uh, open on their lap, but they have, they actually have Tolkien's illustrations in them. And I think it's, it is really like one of the things I really loved when I was younger was to look at the maps. We've talked about this before, but you know, you get a, obviously like a,

a bearing and a sense of place in the relative proximity of these locations. But it's just like you see these sketches and these illustrations of what the world is supposed to look like, and it really sparks and animates your curiosity further. So even if that's not necessarily something that you're going to sit down and thumb through every single page of on the first go, I think it would be fun to look through those. I don't know. I mean, The Hobbit...

Again, The Lord of the Rings is sort of dense linguistically and pretty scary in points. The Hobbit films are kind of scary in points in ways I don't think they need to be. But The Hobbit as a book might be a fun read aloud. It started...

with Tolkien telling his children bedtime stories is sort of like how this world developed in the first place. So, you know, how about an audio book for the whole family? Oh yeah. Andy circus audio books are really, really good. You know, very, very good. Um, I was just, I was just, um,

Re-listening to his Tom Bombadil, actually the, the, in the house of Tom Bombadil chapter of fellowship. And I was just like, he's really good. Andy Serkis is really going for it because Tom Bombadil sings for like 75% of that chapter. So Andy Serkis is like, okay, here we go. Um,

Great stuff. Yeah. So, I mean, I, we're always excited to, you know, hear people announce, you know, new generations of kids getting into these stories is really, really fun. I will say one other thing. I think getting into Tolkien in college is,

And I took a fantasy literature class and a children's literature class where Tolkien came up in both of those. And then I took a history of the English language class where he came up. My professor in that class loved to bring up Tolkien. And so I think that's where like connecting Tolkien with like scholarship, I think really came in really early for me. But certainly you don't have to take an academic approach. You can just sort of like enjoy the wild adventure of it because that is all waiting for you.

in the Lord of the Rings and the Hobbit and the Silmarillion, you know, once you get into it. Yeah, we build toward that. We'll get there. Okay. Next question comes from Andrea. It was like less of a question and more of a point, but I tacked a question onto it in order to smuggle it into the mailbag, the mailbaggins. So here we are.

Andrew wrote, of possession and yearning, according to the philosophy of Tolkien by Peter Kreeft. I'm hoping I'm pronouncing that correctly. In Tolkien's work, there are two longings. Sensucht, or the mysterious longing for we know not what, as the stranger so perfectly encapsulates when he says to Nori, a glimmer, a longing, a feeling I can't remember or even name just beyond the sunset.

Wow.

You have to. I feel like you have to say it. The past, the glory of kings of old. This yearning is not physical. It is always out of reach, like death, what lies beyond the sea. The second longing is that of possession, not power of the flesh, but over flesh, just as Sauron became the ring and Gollum lost his sense of self.

To the ring, once we yearn for something to possess, it ends up possessing us in turn. We are now undone by that which we covet. So my question to you, Mallory, and the way I'm justifying putting this in a mailbag, where else should we be on the lookout for this theme across the set of characters we have in the Rings of Power season two? You want to go first? I kind of want you to just read the beautiful email again. That was just delightful to listen to. Yeah. So I would say...

Pretty much everywhere. Like, this is an idea. We'll go through some of the regions and character sets here for some top contenders. But this is an idea we talk about a lot, not only in Lord of the Rings stories, but...

fantasy stories more broadly. Yeah. Would you say that Anakin is on your mind reading, maybe reading this question, listening to this question? It's like impossible not to, to think of this across our, our wider storytelling tapestry here. So I think like, look, something we like to do is look for not only like the, the, the, the when and the where, but where the nobler former can perhaps be

be at risk of morphing into the latter. Yeah. And then if the latter, when present, ever had origins in the former and what we can learn from that. So that's always something to keep in mind. We have some iconic moments, of course, from the text in the films where this very threat is top of mind for characters who we or other characters in the story trust. Like, I don't know, let's just...

return to Frodo offering a couple people the ring for a second and seeing how they respond. And then that's a good table setter for examining some of the season two consideration sets. Sam.

and Galadriel. Let's talk about Sam. Can't go more than four minutes on a pot without talking about Sam. It's not going to happen today. It'll never happen. The best. Fellowship. I wish you'd taken his ring, Sam said. You'd put things to rights. You'd stop them digging up the gaffer and turning him adrift. You'd make some folk pay for their dirty work. I would, she said.

That is how it would begin, but it would not stop with that. So this is always the risk, right? How did Gandalf respond to Frodo tempting him? What does that temptation represent? The way that power can perhaps tip the scales, not only of an outcome, but of your own morality. Dude,

tempt me I dare not take it not even to keep it safe okay so this is like elemental to how we think about the choices characters make in the world one is just like much like we won't go through every character obviously we don't have time for that but kind of in like lightning round style much like we did for our top moments refresher let's go like by character sense let's start with the Harfoots and the stranger I would say that Nori is like as firmly rooted in that former camp as like any character in the story if we're breaking it into the two buckets in the question there

This is like our origin with Nori. I ever wondered, wondered what's outside. Yeah. Haven't you ever wondered what else is out there? Or even like after discovering the stranger in his little meteor fire pit, it's like, there's a reason this happened. Like I was supposed to find him me, but,

There are other characters where if we would hear that kind of like, I am centered with great meaning and glory and purpose would be worried. But that's not how we feel with Nori because we understand from the beginning that Nori is looking for a sense of the world, right? Have a little working theory. I'm going to wait until we get through all the power of the not power sets, all the regional and sets of characters. But I have a I think the Rings of Power is offering up a thesis on this. And I would I would love to flip that by you. OK, go for it. Fantastic.

Thrilled. Okay. Obviously, Poppy, we've talked about Wandering Day as much as we've talked about maybe anything in the story so far. I trade all I've known for the unknown ahead. What could better sum up that sense of spirit and yearning? The Stranger, that's the example. And the question, why?

In that beautiful, like, adventures they must be shared moment in the finale that we love to talk about so much, the setup from The Stranger for that idea was, but times our paths are laid before us by powers greater than our own. In those moments, it's our task to make our feet go where our hearts wish not to tread. So there's, like, a healthy trepidation there, like accounting for the fear, the risk of the unknown, and then the spirit of adventure that's entwined with that. I feel like those characters, we're in, like, a

relatively comfortable place. What are your thoughts on the Harfoots? Yes, I mean, I think part of this question, like, sort of baked into this question that we're considering, and this is separate from my working theory, is

This idea of like how vulnerable is this character to corruption or temptation or seduction, right? For sure. So like if they're firmly rooted in that sort of pure idea of longing –

then perhaps they're less vulnerable to that seduction of Sauron or what any kind of ring might offer them. So yeah, I mean, I would say my question around the stranger, and I don't know how much of this is sort of baked into them trying to constantly make us worried that he is some sort of malignant force of some kind, but his lack of control over his power...

if that makes him vulnerable to something. Do you know what I mean? Because he's like, he's very concerned about that. You know? Yeah. But in terms of that longing, I would agree we're in the safe space. Yeah. The control thing, the control call, I think is a great one. And also just like, again, to go to that Gandalf comp, either because Othello is an or, because he's literally Gandalf, we'll circle back to that. That,

the wish to wield it would be too great for my strength. I shall have such need of it. Great perils, perils lie before me. Like how would you as a, a character and figure of great ability and consequence justify the use of something potentially nefarious. So that's obviously a different thing than the Harfoots. No one has yet said of the Harfoots, anything quite like a caliber and we're saying men are covetous. So,

different. Numenor, I have a lot of concerns when we go to our Numenor characters. I have a lot of concerns. Yeah, because that idea of like Valinor or like, you know, the...

The ideal of elven purity or whatever is something that the, the, at least many of the humans on Noom Nor feel so resentful of and covetous of the, the immortality of the elves experience. And for that reason, I'm like least worried right now about Elendil, Muriel, anyone we would firmly group under. Yeah. Elfriend under the faithful, right? Yeah. Yes. Yeah.

I would say then we have, we have kind of like three clusters in Numenor. We have that cluster. Then we have the like, Oh, we're, we're, we're walking on a line and it could tip. I would put a Sildur there. And then we have the Farazan, Kemen, Arian camp. We're like, you forgot Belzagar, my new favorite character. I mean, I know you have them coming in the outline later. Belz, um,

Farazan, I think, is emblematic of the type of figure we should be worried about because like I know we're talking about what should we worry about for season two. And, you know, we certainly got that like it will show the people you are a new kind of ruler for a new day speech about the bolts of fabric with Muriel. But if we look back to like I think the really emblematic moment.

other than, you know, walking toward the eagle to steal an omen, would be that conversation with Kemen in the fifth episode last season when Kemen was challenging his father, why aren't you trying to stop this? And Farazan basically said, like, when all this has ended, elves will take orders from us. And then outlined how all of these things that other characters are thinking about is the consequential unfoldings for the future of, like, life itself. It's like,

Ors, forest, trade, tribute. I wouldn't dare stop that. Like, look at all the ways this can help us. It's about his ambition and his agendas and his potential gain. So that's very second bucket possession seeking to gain in order to benefit directly. That idea of control, I think. And then control as it's related to fear.

Right. Yeah. Well, that's part of why I think, like, Isildur's in that middle tier in the Numenor set because, you know, when we heard him say to Estrid in the third episode of the season, ever since I felt bound to try to do something singular, something special, I think our hearts were like,

It was such a moving moment, but it, you know, like we talked about on the deep dive, it made me afraid too. It's like, if you're in that kind of headspace, what do you justify to yourself in order to be worthy of that legacy? Internal pressure. And it reminds me a lot of Boromir, like Boromir, who was our quintessential, like,

guy we're rooting for but is the most vulnerable of all the fellowship to the call of the ring and it's because of this internal uh you know pressure that he puts on himself or external pressure from his terrible father to uh protect Gondor um you know so uh

when we hear, uh, as we talked about in, in the last episodes, when we hear Boromir talk about, you know, the white towers of Ithelion, right. And silver trumpets calling you home. Like that is that, that feels like that kind of like you're talking about the pure longing sliding into the more impure longing. That does feel like that sort of beautiful, pure, uh, Kirtan sitting on the shore thinking about the light of Eleanor kind of longing. Um,

but then it twists and it turns and he knows immediately, you know, like he knows, he knows he, he fell immediately. And, uh, I, the shame. Oh, so important to me. Okay. Love Boromir. It's a gift. Uh, elves. Let's talk about some of the elves to that point of like fear and need and seeking to like preserve or protect. Whoa. Make Linden great again. I mean,

Perfect transition. Yeah. So many of our elvish characters want to do good. They have a...

a noble reason or pursuit. But the question then, and the one that Elrond is voicing is, can that maybe blind them to the risks, either the risks for them collectively or the risk of what they individually might be vulnerable to? We just go back to like, again, our origin with Galadriel, like that conversation that you picked as your, one of your favorite moments in our, in our season one moments rundown that,

first episode of season one, that conversation between Galadriel and Elrond, the put up your sword conversation, like what was Galadriel voicing? The first bucket there is on offer. Sail into Valinor. Allow yourself to receive that. And she said...

you would leave them alive in me, right? She is thinking about the inability to finish the quest, satisfy the quest, live up to her promise to herself, to her brother. And when she said to Gil-galad in the second episode of this season, yes, he knows my mind and I know his, which is why I must face him, why I alone can slay him.

We are alarmed because you can, we can think of Galadriel as a character who has the capacity to be driven by good and achieve good, but who we know, we know is susceptible to the need to, to dominate, to control, to win, to prove to herself and to others that she was. My girl is so messy. She's been messy all season one and the messiness abates. It continues. Does not abate. It continues. Yeah. Okay. Boy, does it. Uh,

Uh, speaking of characters we are concerned about, let's speak briefly of Celebrimbor. Or a more susceptible character. I mean, he literally says out loud.

In episode three to Annatar, I would grant us a space to complete our work. I have spent an age preparing for this. I have apprenticed. I have studied. I have reached the very height of my craft. This, this is my moment. No, he will not take it away. We're like half a heartbeat from just croning my precious. Yeah. Like what about Elrond, Joe? Where do you see Elrond?

Elrond fits into my larger theory. So I want to put a pin in him for a minute. Okay. The dwarves. Uh, we are co-presidents of the Durandisa fan club. We love them. We adore them. We love spending time with them. We said last pod that the episodes are just flat out better when they're in them than when they're not. Um,

We would be remiss in our duties as answers of this question if we did not return to the penultimate episode of season one, where Disa said one day this will be your kingdom during the fourths, not your brother's, not some other dwarf lord's, yours and mine. Together we will rule this mountain and all others before our time is done. That Mithril belongs to us, to you and me. And together one day we are going to dig.

Right. So that would be the kind of possession we're concerned about. Red flags for us. And then also, as we mentioned in the last episode, this fear that Disa expresses over the first three episodes of not being able to hear the rocks, right? So like resonating with the rocks, connection to the earth and to the mountain is like in her very core, her very identity. And so that disconnect has, you know,

has left her exposed, I think, to other kinds of connections that might come her way. But the dwarf we're most worried about is...

is Papa Dorn, right? Like, this is... Papa D. This is our main concern, I would say. And it's fascinating because, like, so we had, during the Younger, remind us of Papa Dorn's warning, right? He said in episode three of this season, this power in Eregion, I don't trust it. You told me once the fate of elves is decided by wiser minds than our own, that to try and alter, to try and cheat death might lead to an even greater catastrophe. I keep wondering, what if you were right? And, like,

Cut to Papa Durin at Eregion being like, here's the mithril. Let's make some rings. Again, it's worrying. So we talked at the time about how it was like there was this fascinating tension, which is very compelling for us as viewers, where like Papa Durin saying, no, we will not help the elves was horrible. It was foul. And yet the fact that he was able to

exhibit a note of like caution about what it would mean to keep delving and digging and seeking these riches and these pathways to greater achievements was like not something that we were seeing from the characters who maybe had a more open heart for other people and like the fact that those two things were fractured in the character set was

Very interesting. So yeah, Papa Darn, we are worried as always. Worried in general about everything happening in Castle Doom. Full of characters who we love and we are worried. I don't think we need to talk about Sauron. I think we know where he falls on this one. I see no difference. Oh, okay. Yeah, so he's an interesting one because I think like you start off

I want to save my children. You won't use us as your slave army. We will find a way to break free of your control. But in episode four of season one, what did he say to Arandir? To untangle it all.

would all but require the creation of a new world. But that is something only the gods can do. And I am no god. At least... Not yet! I'm sorry, once you start talking about yourself as somebody on the path laid of goddom, you've fallen into bucket two. You have. So...

Hit me with your theory and share your thoughts on Elrond. I noticed you mentioned Elrond, Dara, and Theo, and that's fine with me. Okay, so listen. We're going to talk about Theo later. I feel like we can maybe limit it to there.

I'm working on this theory. I don't have all the evidence yet, obviously. We'll monitor as we go along. I'm curious why we think Durin and Elrond are the most skeptical of everyone when it comes to Sauron or the rings or any of this. Seemingly the most impervious to this temptation. And there's a part of my sentimental heart that wants to believe that it is because their connection to each other is so strong that it makes them...

less vulnerable to this intrusion. And I think also that Deesa Duren, I'm hopeful that Deesa Duren connection is part of that as well. But of all the friendships, I mean, The Stranger, Nori and Poppy are another good example of that tight, close connection between the fellowship and

that can create the alliance, the last alliance of elves and men. This is something like we're working towards, right? Like that alliance is what can protect you. And so I think it is important. I was curious, like Elrond being skeptical about,

Made sense to me. He's not as vulnerable as Celebrimbor, and he hasn't been as exposed as Galadriel has been to Halbrand, who is also Sauron and now Annatar, right? So, like, okay. And he doesn't have whatever... He kills me every time. He doesn't have whatever pressures Gil-Galad has, right? So that made sense to me as a sort of, like, objection. But why was he more skeptical than Círdan? Like, what, you know... And Círdan, like...

That pure longing for Valinor is there, but as you noted when we covered episodes one through three, when he was like, I was wrong. Perfection is here. It's not just in Valinor. We don't have to wait for Valinor. I missed the boat to Valinor and I'm stuck here because the gods told me I had to stay here. But guess what? There's a little bit of perfection here and it's on my finger now. It's like the end of Sanctuary of Peril. Heaven is a place on earth. Heaven is a place on my finger and it sparkles in the light and it's so nice. So why...

why is Elrond not susceptible to that? And I just think, like, that firm anchor of his relationship with Durin and then Durin's skepticism, like, it just, like...

Like, Annatar does not work on him at all. And it's not because he's like... Who the fuck is this guy? Yeah, it's not like he's a completely invulnerable person walking around. He has vulnerabilities around his father, around, you know, dwarves shoving him around in the mines or, like, whatever it is. But, you know, he's constantly like, where's Elrond? What does Elrond think? Where's Elrond? Like, that connection, which we loved in season one, I kind of think it just, like... You know, I was trying to sort of back...

sort of date that into Lord of the Rings. They could, I apply that, where could I apply that in the fellowship? And it's like, you know, other friendships that we love to track are like Legolas and Gimli who like don't really get involved in the covetous idea of the ring. And their friendship is played up a bit more in the, in the movies for laughs than it is in the books. But like,

you know, Sam and Frodo, like Sam can't carry the ring, but I just think there's something about that Sam and Frodo connection. That's what keeps Frodo hanging on when he almost goes off the edge a million different times. Literally. I don't mean to. Yeah, exactly. So it's just sort of like, I love that. I think that's what we're meant to be tracking here. And I don't think there's any, you know, like,

You know, Galadriel certainly doesn't have an anchor elsewise. You know, like, you know, if Fenrod were still alive, maybe Fenrod would be. But like, you know, Gil-Galad, as far as I know, doesn't have any friends. Like, I don't know, you know. Brutal. These are just things to watch for because I think that's just something that's very important to Tolkien that the show has latched on to. This idea of friendship as a firm anchor or relationships in general as a firm anchor. So, yeah. I love that.

I have no notes. Okay. Beautiful. Fantastic. Speaking of a sealed door, as we kind of were. As we were, as we were.

Madeline says, Season 2 Isildur. His time in battle in Mordor definitely changed him. I also think emphasizing the bond between him and his horse Beric, Mallory's favorite character, which seemed more present here than in Season 1, helps solidify that he is a character we're supposed to root for. This Isildur is more reflective, more careful in his actions. He's willing to put himself in harm's way to help others, even when it proves unwise for him to do so, as evidenced when he and Estrid run into the bandits with the mark of Adar.

This version of Isildur, who I truly want to root for, who I could see becoming a good king, I think there's a version of the story where I actually sympathize with Isildur for not destroying the One Ring. Maybe. Like the elves and their three rings, he believes the One Ring can be used for good. While that doesn't mean I will support that decision, it adds complexity to the situation that for me has previously always been very black-ish.

black, and white. And our listener Sarah would just like to add this important footnote in another email. Sarah wrote, unrelated, but I love that in spite of being covered in dirt and spiderwebs, Isildur is looking noticeably hotter this season. I guess we just had to grime him up a bit to go from bratty lordling to Aragorn's ancestor who is about to go on a hero's journey with his trusty steed. It's smart because we love a character on an arc.

But also it allowed Halbrand got all the Aragorn coding in season one, which was clever and well used. But she was saying maybe Isildur is our sort of Aragorn comp in season two.

A seal door. Grime him up a bit. I love this. I'm excited to talk about a seal door. I just think a grime him up a bit should go into the email hall of fame. Brad, Braddy Lordling as well. Braddy Lordling also iconic. Obviously covered in dirt, grime him up a bit to make them hotter is one of the, of the many proud Lord of the Rings on screen traditions. That is one of the,

one that we hold most sacred and dear. Aragorn opening the doors while filthy and wounded. By the way, also arriving, reaching Helm's Deep thanks to a bod with a horse. Shout out, Braygo. While we're talking about Beric. Viggo, our number one horse girl. It's just incredible stuff. Incredible stuff. So in terms of the first email, I was thinking like, oh, because I have a lot of...

Memories of the Isildur-Beric bond from season one, but I definitely think Madeline is right that there's a notable change because... Yeah, an uptick. You know, yeah, he like, he...

He walks right past the Aryan to say hi to Beric at Seaguard training. Very cute, very charming. He shares his apple with Beric on the ship to Middle-earth. We both were like, oh, we love to love a pet. And also we have some questions and feedback and lots of thoughts on apples. But...

He was not yet fully attuned to the nature of his bond with Beric, even though Beric was attuned to the nature of his bond with Isildur because post-battle, pre-Vulcanic Corruption, but post-battle. Yeah.

Isildur and Elendil in the sixth episode had that conversation about exactly this. Perik's very worked up. And Elendil says, it's not his pain that's bothering him, but that of his rider. I'm not in pain, Isildur says. Elendil responds, when a horse of westernists rides into battle, he forms an unbreakable bond with the soldier he bears. In time, they become as one, even knowing the innermost feelings of each other's heart. And Isildur kind of scoffs at that, right? He's like, you know his feelings? Yeah.

And Elendil says, no, he knows yours. Where did you learn all this, Isildur asks? From your mother. And then there's like a beat and Isildur says, think you could teach me. And so thinking back to that after reading this question, this felt really meaningful to me because like it's everything that Isildur has experienced in terms of battle and the trauma of battle and the loss of like a friend like Antimo and all of the people they lost. But there's also this

familial aspect to this, right? It's about the relationship with his father. It's about the relationship with his mother, like the maturation that was already beginning to unfold and then ties to like a pathway to a deeper understanding of his own history and an exploration of those bonds. And I think like more broadly, Madeline really makes a great point because

Part of why I was so excited to just watch the show in general, we talked about this in our season one preview pods and the build-up to the show and trailer breakdowns and stuff like that. I was really eager to spend time with Isildur and understand a character who does one of the most consequential things in the world, in the story. How do you become a person who does that? Yeah, and I remember when JD and Patrick were talking about pre-season one, the stories they were excited to tell.

Isildur's arc was really at the fore for them. But I think there was just so much to do in season one.

like so many characters that they felt like they had to introduce. That Isildur, in my memory, and I like Maxime Baldry a lot. We've talked about, you know, in years and years and other things that we've seen him in. But in my memory, he gets reduced a bit to like, again, just like staring out of the horizon, logging, all of that sort of stuff for the wider world out there. And as I mentioned on a previous pod, I am immediately so much more invested in him

In season two. And sometimes it's like that idea of like the making of someone is thrusting them out into the world this way. You know, like we were used to seeing Isildur in the shadow of his father, who was this like, you know, strong stalwart leader of men figure that everyone like looks up to and Numenor and Isildur is his like a kind of fail son, you know, sort of thing. Right. And so what...

Who can you be when you – we talked about this a lot with, like, Loki and Thor, right? Like, who can you be when you are no longer attached to the person that, like, you're measured up to your whole life and what can blossom within you? And I think that that is the opportunity that Elendil –

ditching Isildur in Middle-earth because he thought he was dead. And going back to Numenor with his hot queen girlfriend is, you know, that's the opportunity that they're affording Isildur here as a character. They both potentially have hot girlfriends and so that's great for them. I like... I think where I am with this right now is...

I mean, I agree. I was riveted by Isildur in season two in a way that felt new. I don't mind where we found him and met him in season one because that makes that... We love a character on an arc and that makes the maturation that we're watching more rewarding. And I think we have to actually understand the root of that relationship

restlessness that drove him initially, like that searching for purpose and searching for belonging and also the guilt. Like we now understand thanks to what we've heard in season two, the way that the guilt over his mother's death and her sacrifice had been consuming him. So then that's something else we can bring an extra lens of understanding to the way he finds himself at odds with his father, this like veil between them in addition to everything that you're citing. And like, we think to something like, you know, he's hearing these like

whispers on the water or thinking about his brother, like the conversation that

Asildur and Elendil had in the third episode last season about Anarion and like that wedge between them. Like this family has a lot of stuff they need to work through together in therapy. And there's like this question of like the pull and the call, the guilt and the shame. So he's so unsure of like his footing and what his role in all of that is in season one that he like

sabotages his Seaguard training, thereby fucking up potentially their futures of his two best friends, Philando and Antimo. Antimo, RIP. We miss you still. We think about you all the time, Antimo. You're poor in my mind all the time. You know, he had like at the pre-war happy hour, just like a beautiful fiance and he had a whole life ahead of him. And then they moved a log and found him dead beneath. It was tragic. Like,

But like a sildur is just like basically so desperate for a sense of worth that he has to like, you know, beg and maneuver and work his way into the, into the mission in the first place. And like, I love when Galadriel says to him on the ship,

this is it's i'm i love that you mentioned thor because this is like the same lesson thor had to learn right despise not the labor which humbles the heart humility has saved entire kingdoms the proud have all but led to ruin and so like that's one of the lessons is sealed or had to learn he had to find his humility and that's what we're watching the humility but also just like that yeah that like eager to please or eager to prove himself or all that sort of stuff

He doesn't have that energy around Theo or Estred or Erandir. There's like, I got to get my horse is four in his mind. But like, I really loved the conversation between Theo and Isildur when they're just like standing next to the aqueduct.

You know what I mean? And it's just like, I don't know. There's something really compelling about that connection. So, yeah. And he was speaking then of Numenor with a pride absent. Yeah. That need to like carve out his particular place in it. Yeah. Yeah. That was lovely. You'll love to see it. All right. Isildur. So like, again, one thing we know about Isildur is.

yada, yada, yada, everything else. One thing we know about Isildur is that he decided to not throw a ring into Mothdub. And we get to figure out why. Isildur! So we did have, I don't think it's in any of our questions today, I think, but like, we have one listener like say like, imagine, it's going to be exciting to see like,

to see our this elrond and this is sealed or do that iconic moment you know oh my god yeah yeah yeah i can't wait i mean it will be fucking devastating devastating but i can't wait this season on not a island when we were new they spoiled me they even gave me a phone but then it's like i didn't exist

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Just go to the Wallet app on your iPhone. Subject to credit approval. Apple Card issued by Goldman Sachs Bank USA. Salt Lake City branch. Terms and more at applecard.com. This writes in about some rings. And this is where we might get into like a touch, a scotch, a spoilery, but we'll see. We'll see how we navigate it. Right. But Alyssa says, when will the show explain more about the titular power of these rings?

I first raised an eyebrow when Kira and the shipwright claimed that Narya the Red Ring claimed Narya the Red Ring. And I was like, wait, isn't that the ring associated with fire? And after some internet sleuthing, I understand the ability of it to help the bearer withstand the bullshit of time and inspire good to be fitting for one of the oldest and most respected elves in Middle Earth and for its eventual bearer, Gandalf, gotta be number one hype man for all those depressed hobbits and kings out there who need a pep talk. See,

Same for Galadriel, especially Anenya's properties of warding against evil, aka Hot Sauron who fucks. Do you think this is the Middle-Earth version of a chastity belt? She's definitely going to need his protection and steadfastness when she holds up in Lothlorien to hide from her evil ex.

The question bothering me is, will the show ever elaborate on these themes concretely, meaning what the rings actually do for their bearers, or leave it up to the audience to research slash interpret for themselves? As a hard magic nerd girly, I understand Tolkien prefers soft magic in his world.

but at least some basic parameters for the audience would be nice. Even a simple scene or two with the bearers talking about its effects would be nice, and Galadriel and Gil chatting about visions was a step in the right direction. Yet with the show circling, ha, around the quest for rings and or power, I can't help but feel it's a massive plot hole to not explain how exactly these rings are supposed to help the various problems they're sought as solutions for. And with only five more episodes, will he make time to do so? I can't be the only one left!

wondering. All right. So thank you, Elizabeth. Ring stuff go. Ring stuff go. So we got some lore to talk about here. Again, this is like middle ground spoiler-ish stuff. So you can, you know, this is presumably what this television series will be covering. So you can skip ahead if you want to. So here's a question that I'm going to start with in my response, which is, is Elrond right? Does Sauron control the rings? Again,

This is something that the show is like, question mark. You can skip ahead if you don't want to know. The three rings are unsullied, right? In that they were not made by Sauron. He didn't whisper his little chants over it, over the mithril as it went into the alloy. But according to this letter from J.R.R. Tolkien,

Though unsullied, because they were not made by Sauron nor touched by him, they were nonetheless partly products of his instruction and ultimately under the control of the One. So, bottom line, Sauron's access is much less potent than the other rings. So, like, if when the Dwarf Lords put those seven rings on, Sauron has direct influence over them. That is not necessarily the case yet with the three. Once he makes the one ring to rule them all...

The three are within that all. Right. That is zero by the one. There's that line from Gandalf in Fellowship when he's running through all of the particulars with Frodo and he says, the three are still hidden.

But that no longer troubles him. He only needs the one. For he made that ring himself. It is his. And he let a great part of his own former power pass into it so that he could rule all the others. If he recovers it, then he will command them all again, wherever they be, even the three.

So the three... What's the risk? So the fact that the elves are using the three right now is not great, but not terrible. Right. And the fact that they use them later, and we'll talk about that in a second, is not terrible because the one ring was thought lost, you know, out of Sauron's reach. Right. So then they felt safe to use the three again. So the main power of all the rings...

This is, again, according to a letter from J.R. Tolkien. Quote,

And finally, they had other powers more directly derived from Sauron, the necromancer. So he is called as he casts a fleeting shadow and presage on the pages of the Hobbit, such as rendering invisible the material body and making things of the invisible world visible. That's the seen versus unseen world stuff. So enhancing the natural powers of the bear, preservation. This goes back to that question of longing. This goes back to like...

Tolkien's longing for pastoral England, like how much he hated the industrialization of England and how much he longed for the verdant valleys and copses of trees of his youth and stuff like that. And how there was something slightly ever so tinged with Maga Enis about that in Tolkien, where it was just sort of like his stubborn anti-all innovation. But like, but...

in terms of like the foul pollution of industrialization and stuff like that. And he's just like, let's preserve the beautiful trees. Well, no one think of the trees, you know, that, that is the power of these rings allegedly to preserve and protect Rivendell to preserve and protect Lorian, et cetera. I think you want to say about that before I get into the specific rings.

Hit me. Take me through them. Nenya. Water ring. The elements don't, it's not like bending. It's not, the elements are not that closely tied to the rings. They just, they do have different elements associated with them. It's not that big of a deal.

Galadriel's ring preserves and protects and hides things which she uses to protect Lothlorien and makes it stronger. Keep out those intrusive Sauron thoughts. This is the quote that our pal Brian Cogman identified as the sort of trigger for the entire Rings of Power show from the Mirror of Galadriel chapter in Fellowship of the Ring. She says, of Sauron, he gropes ever to see me and my thoughts, but the door is still closed. And

And I think the ring helps her with that as long as he doesn't have his little matching ring. As long as they're not wedding rings, then it's fine. If she's just wearing the ring herself, Nenya helps her. Otherwise, it's just nonstop visions of them sitting on that branch. It's just like Halbrand. I mean, Sarah. Sorry. So sorry. Sorry. In terms of water, if you want to...

Find it there. The Mirror of Galadriel and the Vial of Galadriel both use water from the same enchanted fountain. There are enchanted rivers on the borders of Lorien protecting them from invasion. Then again, Eregion also has rivers protecting it. So, you know, what could possibly go wrong there? As Gil is happy to point out. Yeah, it's like two rivers. A thick wall and a curtain wall. Don't worry about it. It'll be fine. We got a whole email about curtain walls. We're going to talk about that in episode four. Yeah.

Narya, the fire ring, originally held by Akirdan but given to Gandalf, inspires others and gives resistance against the weariness of time. Perfect for an Astari trying to rally free people against Sauron. There is some implication that Gandalf uses it to free Theoden from Wormtongue's influence. Definitely supercharging his own powers and his staff, etc., when he does that. Yeah.

This is what, under the fire category, this is a quote from Cureden.

I fucking love this guy. I know. This is Kiernan's quote. It's a quote from the appendices, which is like sort of some of the main text that the show is working off of. So I wouldn't be surprised if we hear that.

You know, if someone on the show is Gandalf and gets this ring at some point, I would not be surprised if we hear Círdan say that. And then this is a quote from Return of the King.

about this idea of like this ring perhaps helping with like uplifting and easing weariness. Quote, so it was that Gandalf took command of the last defense of the city of Gondor. Wherever he came, men's hearts would lift again and the winged shadows pass for memory. And yet, when he had gone, the shadows closed on men again and their hearts went cold and the valor of Gondor withered into ash. So,

Um, where that ring inspires some people love to see it last, but not least. The air ring. This is one that Gil Gallad is currently wearing, but Elrond will wear, uh, in the future. So eventually he will get over his anti-ring stance. Um,

Never had his power specified, but since Elrond is a healer, might be related to that. It's probably in some way influenced Rivendell's existence, preserving or protecting or healing it in some unspecified way. Does Elrond use it to fuck up the Manazgul in the river in order to save Frodo? Because that's a Glorfindel-Elrond thing, not an Arwen thing. And then here's a quote about all three of the rings, but we get a mention of...

So that's ring stuff. Anything you want to say about this ring stuff? I think you covered all of the particulars. I think maybe just like broadly, I will say like,

When we think about, again, the nature of adaptation and what making a television show allows you to do, this is the kind of thing you have more room for in a show than you would in a film and really should explore. It's my hope that we will see...

Galadriel, Gil-galad, and Círdan discover more specifics of their reigns. I think so. Like, show us, don't tell us, right? You know, like, is what we want to see. And, like, that actually feels, to be clear, I don't think either of us...

needs or crucially wants or hopes you see at all anything like we're not asking for midichlorians that's not what we want we don't want anything like that um but in exploration and examination of the particulars of the magic whether it comes to the nature of the forging or then the powers at play like

for understanding the connection between bearer, between wearer and ring, between all of the rings, the different character sets, a sour on the one ring, the ruling ring and the other rings, et cetera. Like this is important. I think like where we are right now, I, the anxiety and the question about only five left. I, I, I get it. But also like, that's just the season. I do think we, we need to, we'll, we'll see a little bit more of the season, but then we have more seasons to go. And like, I think literally hearing the,

Kiernan say we do not yet fully understand these rings is like a hopeful kind of note because it shows us that the characters are and then like again cited in the question that conversation between Galadriel and Gil-Galad about the visions that they're having and the the the kind of thinning of the the barrier between the the worlds another thing we always love to talk about um

It's on their minds. And so it makes sense to me, actually, that we would be discovering these particulars more methodically as the characters are beginning to understand them, too. And it feels like there's plenty of time for that yet.

I don't think we need to necessarily fast forward to anticipating a moment where we didn't explore that in full. I think if we don't, it will be a huge bummer and ultimately a mistake for the show. But I think there's plenty of time. And I think more broadly with the magic of the world, there's time to explore that. Like, what are we going to learn about the magic of the E-Star when we watch The Stranger again?

hopefully get his stuff under control. Yeah. Yeah. His powers and his ability to control them. Like it feels like there's a lot of actually like ripe storytelling opportunity there with the rings, but more broadly with the magic in this fantasy world. So I'm excited for that. Love it. Okay. Brian writes in to say, throwing back to season one, as far as Galadriel and Hot Sauron, a.k.a. Albrand, a.k.a. Annatar, a.k.a. Symbiote are concerned,

Would we define their meeting as a meet cute? Would we define Prince Dern and Elrond because two guys swinging hammers feels outright homoerotic? Was there a meet cute in season two you liked or are looking forward to? You go first. Take me through your meet cute thoughts. I mean...

Yes. I mean, I think the raft is a classic cute scenario. I mean, it's not, it's a little, it's a little more sea beastie than cute, but it's still...

Yeah, we felt it right away. Jordan and Elrond less so just because they had already met. To put it in the rom-com terms, because that's what meet cute comes from, this would be a classic screwball comedy plot of remarriage, which is like you see in the Philadelphia story or you see like to go back to, you know, our guy Shakespeare, much ado about nothing. People who were previously associated, not...

some time has passed. There are resentments, but then they find their way back to each other, the comedy plot of remarriage. So like that's sort of where I would put Elrond and Doran in season one. In terms of season two, I don't know if we're going to get it this season. I mean, I'm just really excited for Elrond to meet more people because he was like leaned in and then down in the mines for the rest of season one.

And, you know, he's over in Eregion, so is Kel Brimbor briefly Halbron. They didn't interact very much. You know, Galadriel, Gil-Galad, but like, you know...

I want to see it. Or like, you know, I just, you identified Elrond as your favorite character. I might agree with you. And like, I just, I want to see him in all corners of the world. Especially when those locks are flowing and like, we've got so many flowing locks in the trailer. She found my, there's something going on with the

going on with the elf wings this season which we will continue to explore also we got actually several emails about elf ears and I promise you we'll be talking about remarkable hashtags we will be talking about the yeah what is it meaty thick boys I think we will be talking about the elf ears in episode four for sure but oh man yeah Elrond get him out there

in the world. Or as you said, any scene is better with Dorne and Disa in it. So take Dorne and Disa anywhere and we're going to have a great time. I don't think there's any, there isn't like meet-cutes with Isildur, but well, Estrid obviously. Yes, of course. I think we can count Isildur and Estrid as a meet-cute. I mean, she's got her hands on his inner thigh. I'm

Mere moments. High, high up the thigh. It's interesting now because like to think back, you know, so much of the obviously Galadriel and Halbrand is Galadriel here, top of the list. But so much of the like

romance-centric focus of season one was Arandir and Bronwyn. So, like, we have some space to fill now. You know, we do. Here's my question for you. Would you count Merdania and Alvin? She's like, can we just bring them a shawl? Yes.

My girl, Danya. Got it bad. I'm worried. Got it bad. And who can blame her? Not us. Not us. This is not a spoiler warning because I have genuinely no idea what's actually going to happen when this is the story, but it's a trailer warning because sometimes people don't like to talk here about. So I'm going to mention something. Not actually, I don't, I can't remember. I don't think this was in the season pre, like the three trailers before the season, but it was in the, at the end of episode one, the like this season on. Yeah.

So if you didn't watch that, you skipped that, you don't like to see that stuff, hit the fast forward button twice. Poppy? Gonna meet someone? Poppy's leaning in for a kiss. Oh, that's a kiss shot. 100%. Oh, yeah. Oh, yes. So that's exciting. Yes. We've got a meet cute pending, and I'm excited to see what that is for Poppy. That's very exciting. And then just on the romance front.

As stated on many prior pods, and as I will continue to state until they consummate their love at last, I need a Lend-A-Deal and Mariel to fuck. I need it, Joe. Do you need it on screen? Because this is the question of like...

I would like a little... I'm sorry to be so painfully on brand. I'm, like, fine with a chaster rings experience, but I would like just, like, a touch more sex in Rings of Power. I think we've, like, ratcheted up the violence. Why not ratchet up the sex just a bit? A heavy snog? Something like that, at least. Yeah. Like, he's...

Not just like fingertips grazing and yearning. Okay, got it. I mean, I would take some grazing yearning fingertips, certainly. Here's my most pressing meet cute. I need Kemen's face and like a fist, an axe, a sword, something. Just an axe splitting his face open. Duran's axe and Kemen's face. That's really high on my list. Oh man, great stuff. I love it.

This question comes from Andy, who says, did you see when the stranger reached out for the staff mirage that it turned into a different staff that looked like Gandalf the Grey's? It actually looks a little bit more like Radagast, but has that woods vibe. Definitely didn't get that from the one evil wizard, leading me to think they're not both blue. So staff questions, Mallory. We already know how you feel about whether or not this can and should be Gandalf.

It has to be. It has to be. Actually, I had some, like, fascinating, just in the wild, conversations with some pals and people this weekend. And I... This perhaps is, like, confirmation bias where I'm looking for people who agree with the thing I already think entirely possible. Like, it's never happened to me before. But I, like, this was coming up. Like, if it's not Andoff, why are they fucking with us, basically? So I'll be curious to see. On the Radagast front...

You know, we talked about this in the deep dive. Like, the Stranger's Cloak is certainly looking browner this season. I assume that's just, like, desert dust and dirt on the road to Rune, but maybe it is deliberately there to, like, fuel our speculation. I would say, like, I'm not getting Radagast vibes from the Stranger. Is it the lack of bird shit on his head? Lack of bird shit streaming down his face and coating his cheekbones. Unlimited...

Limited communing with animals so far when he has. It's gone quite poorly. You know, some injured wolves and some, you know, some firefly genocide, basically. And there's also there's that line from Gandalf in Fellowship. You are near the borders of the Shire now. And what do you want with me? It must be pressing. You were never a traveler. Right.

unless driven by great need. Now, I guess you could say certainly this is great need, but like, I think if you said like, what do we associate the stranger with? We'd say like traveling and the quest. This is just like, I'm not, it's not pinging Radagast to me, but, um,

On the staff vision front, I'll say, like, we should just keep in mind, because I do think there's, yes, there's definitely some visual similarities to Radagast, but, like, more so, I think, to Gandalf's staff in the Moria area of fellowship. And Gandalf's staff change over the course of the films. Like, it's much more of a... His white staff, yeah, yeah. No, but even before that, like, in The Hobbit, his staff has, like, a closed kind of, like...

more closed, like upper netting and webbing. And like in fellowship, it's, it's more of like an open kind of nestling, like nest and cocoon. So remembering that the game that they're constantly playing legally is that they want to like invoke the Peter Jackson films, but can't like copy legally copy the Peter Jackson films. Right.

I actually think the thing, you know, you and I were going back and forth of like, is this Gandalf? And that is definitely the question that, you know, like we're not done with mystery boxes. Like they're definitely like, who's Sauron? We solved, we solved for X. We know who Sauron is. It's Halbrand who's now Annatar, right? Like we get that. Is this guy Gandalf is going to be maybe a question they're going to make us ask for two more seasons. Who knows? Oh man. Nothing has convinced me more about,

that this is Gandalf since we spoke last week. Then that quote I read about Círdan handing the ring off to Gandalf. And now I am sort of enraptured this idea of we will see all of the people who wear the three rings of power in Lord of the Rings get their rings before this show is over. Do you know? We'll see the rings on their final hands before this is all over. And in that case, we need a Gandalf. Need him.

Need them. All right. Let's follow our nose to that outcome. Yeah, because someone wrote us an email being like, of course it's Gandalf. They used his quote. I'm like, yes, we know. We know that they are heavily implying that it's Gandalf. We are picking up all the clues. I just don't know if it's a red herring or not. So if a bird takes a shit on a stranger's head, are you going to switch your stance? I was told there would be no math on this podcast. Okay, so...

Jen wrote in to ask, she says, in the deep dive of the first three episodes, you talked about evil being cold, freezing the land as Sauron quote unquote dies. I wonder if Tolkien was influenced by Dante in this instance or the showrunners writers if the coldness isn't specified in the books. It is comedia. Dante crafts the ninth circle of the Inferno as cold.

not hot. Comedia is how you pronounce it. I'm so sorry. Satan is frozen in a lake of ice at the center of the earth, just wondering if you two knew anything as to if or how much exposure Tolkien had to Dante. And boy, Jen, do I have a fun answer for you.

This is incredible. We read some fun, salty quotes from Tolkien in season one of Rings of Power. There are many that exist. This man was a frequent correspondent. He had a lot of opinions. He was not afraid to use them. You know who would have been a great podcaster? Oh, Tolkien. Oh, my God. Lewis and Tolkien on the mic. The Inklings podcast. Holy shit. Lewis is... Tolkien's BFF, C.S. Lewis, is about to come up. Okay. So...

Via some, like, Dante site that I found. Live show at the Econ Child. Tolkien's ambivalence towards Dante would be best presented in his own words. In 1967, Tolkien gave an interview to the Daily Telegraph. Having received the draft of the pre-published interview, he sent back his corrections. And so we have both his original words and his retraction of them in print, which are worth quoting in full. So originally when asked about Dante, Tolkien said, quote...

Doesn't attract me. He is full of spite and malice. I don't care for his petty relations with petty people in petty cities. That's what Tolkien said about Dante. Once he saw those words in front of his face, this is the retraction that he sent. Quote, my reference to Dante was outrageous.

I do not seriously dream of being measured against Dante, a supreme poet. At one time, C.S. Lewis and I used to read him to one another. I was for a while a member of the Oxford Dante Society. I think at the proposal of Lewis, who overestimated greatly my scholarship in Dante or Italian generally, it remains true that I found the pettiness that I spoke of a sad blemish in places."

So, Mallory, how do you feel about the Tolkien burn and then the hasty retraction from, you know? We know now that he would not only be a great podcaster, but great at Twitter. Twitter apology. Yes. Notes app. Tolkien broke out the notes app. But I also just love the added info. We get that, like, C.S. Lewis, like, press ganged him into the Dante Society. He's like, I don't really care about Dante or Italian at all.

One of my best friends to this day, like one of the bridesmaids at my wedding was somebody who I happened to be placed with in like an orientation group. First day of college, four people, journalism students. Okay, you guys meet. And then like we had a thing. It was another orientation event after. And this dear friend, 20 years later, she was like, I have to go to a placement exam for my French class.

And I didn't want to sit alone this next thing. And so I was like, you strike me as someone who would be great at foreign languages. I think because she wanted to actually place down. She had placed into a higher French class that she wanted to take. And I basically was like, come sit with me at this other orientation thing.

don't go to your French placement test. And I think she does have some regrets about listening to me in that moment, but I don't think she has regrets about our two decades long, beautiful bond. When you started this story, I was like, no way did someone make Mallory do something she didn't want to do. And then when I realized you were the influencer, I was like, yes, that sounds right. Okay.

Oh, boy. Last but certainly not least. Speaking of people susceptible to influence. Last but certainly not least. We did cover this a bit in our answering of the sort of like longing question, but this is where we're going to get, I guess, as much as we did with the rings answer into some spoilerish territory. This is a, this is a,

speculation question that we asked a lot in our coverage of season one and we kept it out of like sort of the main like non-spoiler section so i'm just going to give that warning here this is uh we got an email from jason that i'm going to say tldr ringwraith watch go there will be nine ringwraiths nine nazgul nine men who are turned into foul beasties

Whomst among the cast that we have already met could be one of those nine? So that's the question that we're going to consider right now. Shout out, uh, John Richter who does our, uh, is, is out this week, but does our video production usually, um, uh,

Sent us an email this morning, so it's too late for me to put in the notes here, but he is also very much like Ringwraith watch go. He has some fares on Intel that I am not privy to, so we will get more info from John on that before I go into that. I'm not going into that today. I just want to say.

John sending a proper email instead of just texting or slacking is so incredible to me. He promised he was going to do that, and then he did it. He sent a bullet-pointed email full of theories. So, John Richter. Okay. All right. So, let's begin with Kings. Oh, man. Here we go. Ring, Wraith, Watch, Go, Kings.

Nine rings for men doomed to die is how the ring verse goes. And here's a quote from the Silmarillion ever heard of it. Quote, those who use the nine rings became mighty in their day. Kings, sorcerers, and warriors of old. They obtained glory and great wealth, yet it turned to their downfall.

They had, as it seemed, unending life, yet life became unendurable to them. They could walk, if they would, unseen by all eyes in this world beneath the sun, and they could see things in worlds invisible to mortal men, but too often they beheld only the phantoms and delusions of Sauron. And one by one, sooner or later, according to their native strength and to the good or evil of their wills in the beginning...

They fell under the thralldom of the ring that they bore and of the domination of the one which was Sauron's. And they became forever invisible, save to him that wore the ruling ring. And they entered into the realm of shadows. The Nazgul were they. The Ringwraiths. The... No, I'm not going to pronounce that. The enemy's most terrible servants. Darkness went with them and they cried with the voices of death.

Um, okay, dude, should we, is it too late? We're a few years in, but should we change the name of the pod to under the thrall? I mean, how did we, how did that escape us when we were first considering what to, what to call, you know, how in an, in the index, uh, any index, but including the rings indices, you see, you go to a term and then it's like a parentheses, all the other terms that you might, you might, uh, reference. Yeah.

Nazgul, parentheses, ringwraiths, black riders, fell riders, black men, the nine, nine riders, nine lords, messengers of Mordor, winged messengers, shriekers, et cetera. They had to end that with a fucking et cetera. But they didn't put that word that I dare not pronounce. And that's why you're off the hook. Thank you. Okay. Yeah. So I think the key takeaway from that

as we sort of ponder who in the cast might be a candidate for the nine, is this one by one sooner or later, according to their native strength into the good or evil of their wills in the beginning. So not all of these men are going to be

Kevin's craving evil, shitty people. You know what I mean? Like, I think we should be on the lookout for some people who feel a bit more noble, but could go anyway. Here's what we know. We know so little about the nine. This is like a piece of lore that, that Tolkien really has not fleshed out or filled in, which again, gives the show opportunity to play too busy talking shit to Dante. Yeah.

Their leader known as the Witch King of Angmar, the Lord of the Nazgul, or the Black Captain, had once been the King of Angmar in the north of Eriador. So, and then, okay, here's the thing about Tolkien. He's forever writing letters and unfinished tales and all this sort of stuff like that. And he just, like, said, I don't know, five different things about the Witch King of Angmar. So there's, like, a lot going on. So we definitely have not met Tolkien.

Someone who was the king of Angmar in the north of Eriador. That has not happened to us, okay? Right. But also elsewhere. Yeah. There are three lords of the once powerful island realm of Numenor. In his notes for translators, Tolkien speculated that the witch king of Angmar, ruler of the northern kingdom with his capital at Karndum, was of Numenorean origin, right? So a thing to remember about the rings of power is something that JD and Patrick have been very, very open about.

and is already evident, they are massively condensing the timeline, right? So like, if Tolkien has in his mind someone from Numenor who gets a ring and in doing so becomes, you know, they become kings, they become sorcerers, they become all these things. They live for years and years and years and years before they become the ringwraiths. We're not going to have time for that in the timeline of what we're seeing because Isildur is already like

like a man grown. Right. So, um, so the Numenorean question mark who becomes the King of Angmar, I don't know that that is going to happen, but could it be that the Witch King Angmar is just a Numenorean in the show? So here are our candidates then. I believe Farazan, Muriel, Elendil and Isildur are out. Certainly Elendil and Isildur are out. Um, uh,

Jon has some questions about Farazan. I thought it was very important that Farazan shuffle off this mortal coil the way he does in the books, but sure. Then we've got that piece of shit, Kevin. The heroic Valandil. No. My new fave, Belzagar. And Arian, who's to say...

Yeah. One of the ringwraiths isn't a lady. We don't know that. Could be. It says three rings for elven kings, but one of those elven kings is Galadriel. So just something to keep in mind, gender-wise. Okay. So. Okay. If I'm Rishi from Pierpoint, I have already put my entire life savings down on Kemen. Yes. Correct. Right? Correct. It feels like it's why he's there.

I mean, Belzagar and Kemen and Arian are there to give fares on someone to talk and scheme with. Like, that's sort of part of their purpose there. And Arian to make life more complicated for Elendil because someone in his own family is, like, on the other side. So, like, make it more poignant. But yeah, Kemen of all the Numenoreans. Kemen, number one. Number one. Yeah. I do like Arian as a candidate as well. Like, aligning with the power grabbers. Just,

The exposure to the Palantir also makes her a very intriguing candidate for whatever the path awaits. Even just the way she was, even though it ends up being leveraged to take Muriel down, I found something, something secret, something dangerous, something forbidden, like what we've glimpsed of how she relates to anything that's like,

to be coveted or feared by some party. Fascinating to me. She loves jewelry. She's rocking a lot of dramatic earrings this season. So, you know, loves, loves, loves a notable neckline and a, and an earring. Bell cigar strikes me as just like a bit player, a sycophant, but you know, you never know. We're going to be nine. So he could be like one of the nine, but like really ninth on the roster. Do you know what I mean?

Do you like the idea of Kemen and Arianne? You know, they're like, they're a couple. They're like a shitty power couple. Yes. Yeah. And you said absolutely not about Volundial. You're like, absolutely not. My guy would never.

I will be, I think, just crestfallen. I can't see it. I can't see it. But I am compelled by your note to keep in mind that we shouldn't only be considering candidates who have already shown us some... Shittiness. Greedy, evil pendency. So for right now, if I had to bet, I would pick Kevin Belzagar and Ari Arian as our three. Because I really do think that Farazan needs a different ending than becoming a ringwraith. Okay.

Okay. Quote, so three lords of the once powerful island realm of Numenor. Next category, quote, according to the lore, kings of countries in Middle Earth. Again, Isildur is out. Right. Tall, moody Theo. Still a leading candidate, I think. Estrid.

Her betrothed. We're just banging around Pilar gear right now. We don't have a lot of locations for men, so we're doing our best. I'm going to, again, we said more broadly for this question, talking and looking ahead so you had your spoiler warning. I'm going to put Estrid in Isildur's unnamed wife. I like it. The territory. Because as we've mentioned many times, Tolkien does not prefer to name the wives of others. Just like,

And there was a woman. I'm with you. I agree. I agree. But maybe her betrothed, who surely we will meet at some point this season. Could be. And he's like, wow. Yeah. You ditched me for a Sildur. Yeah. That guy. But now I need to go do something drastic. Yeah. How are you coping with the fact that it's not going to be Waldrick? What a devastating blow for all of us here at House of R. I just. Why? I know.

We were rooting for you, my guy, to live in, in, in, uh, along in the legacy. Um, tall, tall, moody Theo. Yeah. Again, to go back to that, like maybe not as heroic as Volandiel, but like not someone that I think of as like evil, but someone who is vulnerable. And, you know, we have already seen like fall under the sway of something like, you know, he did. Um, he, he uses it as kind of like a part of the, the ploy at, at,

at the fireside here to kind of help Isildur, but when he shows the arm wound and he's like reminding us, right? I did more for Adar. Yeah, it's proof I've done more for him than any of you can claim. And again, that conversation between Theo and Galadriel in the penultimate episode last season, the guilt that he's carrying, and even then the way that built toward...

she's encouraging him to like trust in the design, right? And surrender. And he says, my home has gone. Where's the design in that? And now in addition, he's like resenting the death of his mother. He is very, very, very vulnerable. Speaking of, is he, I think we're, we've both kind of moved into like, maybe we won't find out who Chekhov's Theo's missing dad is, but like also his missing dad could still be a candidate. Yeah. You got to mention. Yeah. All right. Yeah. Yeah.

In Unfinished Tales, the Witch King's second-in-command is named Kamul, the Black Easterling, or the Shadow of the East. Guess what? We've gone east with the Stranger and Nori and Poppy, and we've met the Gowdrim, which are just basically dusty Nazgul. So we've got two named characters in the Gowdrim. They have the copper masks. We've got Kylta, who's got sort of like the long mask, and Brank, who's got the skull mask.

Are these proto-Nazgul? What do you think? I think somebody from the Rune plotline has to end up being one of the nine. The Easterlings are of Rune. This feels...

Inevitable? But we got to say, okay, so we have, we picked three Numenoreans that we feel moderately comfortable with. We've got Theo feels pretty good, you know, in the Southland sort of area. And then let's say we take both the named Gowdrim. That is still only six. Did I do my math correctly? Yes. So we're three short. So listen, we're only in season two. You know. Right.

Sauron has already said, I need rings for men. Can you make me rings for men? So that's already on his mind, but who knows how long it's going to take. And then there's like a very intense trailer line where he's like, you will give me the nine. It feels like it's going to be a focus. Yeah. The...

yeah, these masked trackers, we also know already about them that they have made a pact, right? They've like made a pact with our mysterious Kieran Hines dark wizard figure in exchange for, yeah, like clearing up their eczema or whatever. So, they seem like, hey, I can fix your eczema, put this ring on and you won't need the creams anymore. Let me tell you what it did for this leaf. Yeah.

All right. So that's, that's spring wraith watch go. We will be doing this rest assured every week. This is a fun. How many minutes as we plan ahead, how many minutes do you want to carve out for a wig watch and ear watch at the end of the week? Great question. The ears stuff is sort of astonishing. And also, um,

Yeah, the elf sideburn watch. I think the elf hair watch is actually related to ear watch. I have some questions about what's happening with the prosthetic series this season. We'll talk about it. Can't wait. 10 minutes max. But that's a chunky little wig watch session. So we'll see. Meaty thick boy. Meaty thick boy. All right. Anything else you want to say? We did it. We did it. Can't wait to be back with you in mere days to discuss...

the next episode of Rings of Power season two. All right. Thank you to Mallory Rubin. Thank you to all of the bad babies for your emails. Hobbitsanddragons at gmail.com. Thanks to Steve Ullman in Chicago and nonetheless manning the soundboard for us today. Thank you so much, Steve. Thanks to Regina Ringer-Powell for his production work on this and every episode. Thanks to Jomie at Dinner on the Social and filling in for John Richter this week. We have Stefano Sanchez. Thank you so much. We will see you at the end of the week.

for episode four, Rings of Power. Bye! Bye!