Matt Barnes: Why Success Is Built on Failure, Resilience, and Hard Work | E152
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Principal didn't believe you and the KKK tried to burn down your school. My sister comes to me again for the second time, crying with a couple of her girlfriends and I can see the spit in her hair and I'm like, "What happened?" She's like, "You know, this boy called me a n***a, spit on me and I got my hands on him and I hurt him." While I'm suspended, they come and vandalize the school, hang a mannequin from the oak tree with my football jersey on and die.

swastikas everywhere. The one thing that I was so thankful for was that she got to see me play. She was on the other end of, you know, for me to get an opportunity. You didn't really tear up when you're back there in your hometown and, you know, you got your kids there. It's bittersweet, Randy, to be honest with you, because I've always been someone that nothing was ever handed to me.

I didn't necessarily feel like I earned that ring because I got hurt going into the playoff. So I shot the ball three or four seconds left. And after I hit it, there was 1.1. So actually, I technically shot the ball too early. But the funny part was, and, you know, I went in there and I saw these guys kind of collapsing on me. Welcome to In Search of Excellence, where we meet entrepreneurs, CEOs, entertainers, athletes, motivational speakers, and trailblazers of excellence with incredible stories from all walks of life.

My name is Randall Kaplan. I'm a serial entrepreneur, venture capitalist, and the host of In Search of Excellence, which I started to motivate and inspire us to achieve excellence in all areas of our lives. Like

My guest today is my friend Matt Barnes. Matt is a former professional basketball player who spent 14 seasons in the NBA. He's been an NBA analyst for ESPN, Fox, and NBC Sports, is the co-host of the very popular podcast All the Smoke, is the subject of the incredible documentary Revolution, and is the star of the reality TV show The Barnes Brunch. Matt is also the founder of Athletes vs. Cancer, which he started after losing his mother to the disease 17 years ago.

Matt, thanks for being here. Welcome to In Search of Excellence. Thank you for having me. Long time coming. We've been trying to connect for a while. I'm glad we were able to. I'm super psyched for you to be here. Yes. Let's start with your family. You were born in San Jose, biracial family. Dad Henry was black. Mom Anne was white. You grew up very poor, on food stamps. You had holes in your socks and shoes.

Talk to us about the night you were seven years old looking out the window and what you saw with these undercover cops and what happened with your family at that point. You guys did your research, huh? Yeah, I was, you know, very mixed neighborhood growing up in San Jose, black father, Italian mom and dad.

My dad was a provider. Mom was a stay-at-home mom. So my dad would be a butcher by day. And in the evenings, he would hit the streets and, you know, sell drugs and make ends meet for our family. The particular night you were talking about, two guys that, you know, was working for him came to the house and tried to rob us and

in the window literally as a child I see my dad beat up two guys and take guns from both of them and very shortly after that we

packed the family up and headed to Sacramento. Let's go back because the two guys that robbed your dad were cops, undercover cops. And so I read the story about how he took their gun from them. It's kind of hard if two guys are pointing guns at them to actually take guns from trained police officers. Both of them. And then I think he beat the shit out of them as well. Yes. My dad, man, grew up tough.

without love and I didn't realize that until a lot older. You know, my dad and I didn't really see eye to eye until my mom passed and I'm sure we'll get there at some point. So my dad was just one of those guys, obviously in the 80s it was, you know, less about guns and more just kind of about fighting and that was something he thrived in. You know, we would go to the flea markets on the weekends and probably three out of the four times we went, you know, he would get in a fight. So

It was something he enjoyed to do, I guess, as a pastime. And yeah, I mean, literally, I'm sitting in the curtain. So for me to this black stage right here, I'm kind of seeing what's going on. Did you hear the commotion first? No, I went to the window. I'm following my dad around. So I went to the window and it was an unexpected knock. Your sisters are with you too. My sister. So my sister is maybe three or two. She's two years older than my brother. Yeah. So my sister is about five. So

just following my dad around and peeking through the window being a nosy kid and just kind of seeing all this happen so fast and the fact that he was able to do that unscathed was crazy.

Did you know at some point your dad was a drug dealer? I didn't really understand. He became a big drug dealer. I mean, not huge. You know, I think, you know, when you're younger, everything is bigger than life. He wasn't necessarily, he was kind of, he was, you know, under several people. But, you know, when you're smaller, everything is bigger than life. You know what I mean? So I didn't necessarily know what he was doing. But what I do remember growing up in the 80s, I was born literally in 1980, that we always had the party house. You know what I mean? So there would be...

My parents were functioning drug addicts or used drug functioning. Yeah, drug addicts may be the word. So I saw a lot at an early age. I saw obviously it being used and sold, but didn't necessarily understand the magnitude because it was all I know. So I kind of thought it was normal.

When you're five years old, what kind of kid are you back then in that day? I'm a kid that's outside all the time. You know, I have a five just turned six and he doesn't, you know, kids don't go outside anymore, which is unfortunate for several reasons. But I'm outside playing from the time I get out of school until, you know, right before it starts to get dark and a bunch of neighborhood kids and just in the mischief. You know, we're playing in the creek and we're hopping the fence over by the freeway. We're playing football. We're playing tag.

We're riding bikes. So just, I think, a normal five-year-old kid in the 80s. The night of the...

beat up the undercover cops that you guys ran into u-haul yes you moved to sacramento yeah back then it was basically uh all white mostly white cow town farm town yeah and you're uh eight years old you're in the third grade you get to this all-white school and then a lot of racism happens you tell us about a ton of racism first of all when i get to this new school i don't

Obviously understand that where I was coming from I guess the the education wasn't up to par because I went to this new school and I went from it was I think it was second grade or third grade back to the kindergarten class, so I'm this big old kid with little tiny kids and I'm seeing my Classmates go to recess and I'm in there writing my letters. I'm like what the hell is going on in here You know what? I mean, so obviously educationally I wasn't up to par when I got to here when I got to Sacramento but yeah, I

Racism from the jump, unfortunately. And for me, again, being Italian and black, I grew up in a very mixed biracial area in San Jose. So when we came to Sacramento, my neighborhood was still mixed. But the schools that my parents put me in, I went to two elementary schools, Cambridge Heights and Charles Peck. They were predominantly white. And I never understood at the time. I never liked it. I never understood until I got older, I think, why they did it. But

racism from the jump. So eight, nine years old being called nigger and not being allowed to play particular games. And I was just like, I was, I was devastated because I'm just like, what the, like, I love sports, love being outside, but I wasn't able to play these games because of the color of my skin.

When was the first time you heard that word? What did you do when you heard it? I didn't really know what to do at first. You know, I chased the kids around. I remember the first time it was. Do you know what it meant? I didn't really know what it meant, to be honest with you. I mean, again, it wasn't something that was flying around because I was in my old neighborhood. There was, you know, Vietnamese, there was blacks, there was Mexicans that, you know, there was kind of a rainbow there.

of kids so not necessarily knowing what it means but I knew it was something bad because the kids were laughing and when they said it they would run so I would just chase them and try to catch them and it got so bad that I was fighting often and getting in trouble at this new school and getting suspended and I would you know and I finally told my parents what was going on and

My mom was a consoler and wanted to love and hug me. She was a teacher at elementary school.

I always looked up to my dad from that standpoint. So I started getting in fights to kind of just, I guess, demand my respect at a young age. I didn't know I was demanding my respect, but obviously, you know, in hindsight, looking back, that's what I was doing. And I was getting in so many fights that my mom finally started coming to the school and she would watch me on my breaks. So, you know, we had a little 15 minute break, we'd have lunch and then there'd be a 15 minute break before school got out. So,

She would be there during recess and again, you know, charismatic, loving, loved kids. And, you know, I think maybe after a year or two of her just kind of coming to make sure I stay out of mischief, they gave her a job as a yard duty. So she started off kind of just watching us as a break and at recess and ended up being a special ed teacher before she ended up passing.

The first time you had dinner at a seated table was with a white family. Yes. So tell us about that experience and how you were feeling as somebody who had never had that. Yeah, I didn't, you know, again, I didn't know...

what I was missing or what was going on because to me it was the norm in San Jose. Everyone was pretty similar. But when I started going to these schools and after I kind of had to fight my way to acceptance, um, I thought I was a pretty cool, fun loving kid. You know what I mean? So I started hanging out with some of these kids and, and, and really becoming close with some of them. And,

you know, being able to go to their houses and seeing their have multiple cars and their own room and video games like all this is new to me. Like I didn't grow up with any of this. So, yeah, the first time I actually sat down at a family dinner table was with a friend of mine, Jeff, and his family. And, you know, they had all the food in the middle and pass this and pass that. I'm just like, OK.

Cool. I have a scholarship student who was raised in foster care, and when I gave her the scholarship, it was for my grandmother who was raised in foster care as well. So we

It was hard to actually get her to come to the restaurant because she thought I was one of these guys online trying to suck her into kidnapping or something weird. But I was working with the guidance counselor. And again, nothing good had happened to her before, ever. So I call her, you know, get a free ride to Michigan. It's hard to understand. You're skeptical. Really? Oh, yeah. She hung up on me. Didn't believe it, so I had to call the principal of the school. And it was a whole thing to get her to have a phone call. And it was a whole thing to get her to drive...

um, to one hour drive, uh, from University of Michigan or from high school. She was actually in Lansing at the time living in her car. And then she brought this guy, you know, to dinner, a fancy dinner. She'd never been in a restaurant before. So she's looking around and, and, um,

Didn't know how to use the fork or knife and you could tell it was very intimidating for her. Did you feel intimidated when you were a kid? I just kind of followed the lead. Obviously, being a kid, I didn't put that much thought into it as if I was introduced to it maybe as a teenager. But, you know, just kind of followed the lead of my friend and his brother and the family was great. They accepted me. You know what I mean? And, you know, one thing that was just tough for me was my parents fought a lot and it was a way for me to kind of escape that.

the noise and escape the violence and the yelling and the abuse. So I often kind of, again, once I kind of found my acceptance, I would find friends that wouldn't mind me staying the whole weekend sometimes. You know, I would come home after school with them Friday and not, you know, go to school with them Monday morning and then go back to school, excuse me, then go home after that. So I was kind of always looking for

better opportunity. I guess I got a, you know, a taste out of the better life and it was something that kind of really piqued my interest and I enjoy it. We love our parents, for better or for worse, most of us. Yeah.

They have flaws. Yes. Bad flaws. Your dad was very violent towards your mom. He beat your mom, was arrested twice and went to jail twice. Yeah, it was. How did, did you ever see your dad beat your mom? And what, what was your reaction when you know, physical with her? Luckily, I didn't see, I would hear it because I would be, you know, up in my room at night when they would, I would always hear the argument. Going like this? Yes. Like covering, covering my head or.

sometimes even getting under my bed and just kind of hoping that this would just stop, you know what I mean? And, and, you know, the more you grow, the more you just kind of understand the dynamics and it just sucked, you know what I mean? And, and again, I didn't really get to crack into my dad, into his mental until my mom passed. You know, my mom, it'll, it was, it was 17 years ago, probably like a week ago that she had passed from cancer. And,

When she had passed, I was in the NBA at the time, right at the beginning of a season. And it was the first time that, you know, I saw my dad cry. It was the first time that he kind of broke down and apologized to me, my brother and sister. And

My sister was kind of the first one to kind of dig into, you know, kind of his childhood and to understand that, you know, he was beat by his mom and fed dog food and had to sleep on the floor. Like he had a terrible upbringing. So looking at that situation and being a little bit older, like obviously, you know, you forgive and you forget and then you forgive. You never forget. But, you know, to me, it was never too late to be a father because I felt like at that point when I lost my mom that I was gaining a dad because he was starting to open up to me

for the first time in my life at 27 and just kind of understanding the childhood trauma and, and, and abuse he had gone through and he had just transferred that to, you know, his family. Let's go back to high school and we're,

As males, I'm not being chauvinistic about this, we want to protect our sisters or our family. Not female, but it's usually not the female beating up the male. It's usually the male protecting the female. Your sister had two incidences. She was riding her bike and someone called her.

Bad word again. And then your senior year, someone spit on her. Yeah. And so you took matters into your own hands again. Yeah. Second time you did that, you got suspended for six days. Principal didn't believe you on the KKK, tried to burn down your school. Walk us through that whole...

incident and again as a teenager getting in a lot of fights. What are you thinking at that point? Well luckily the fights had kind of stopped after elementary school. I mean they were here and there sprinkled in through just kind of what kids do in the neighborhood or at school but I was a senior. I was literally two months away from going to UCLA. A star. Yeah I was the all-American football player, all-American basketball player. Just really

about what was next. You know, being from a pretty much from a small town in Sacramento, I hadn't seen much, you know what I mean? So just excited about the opportunity and,

And my sister comes to me again for the second time. The first time she told me, you know, go tell the principal, go tell this and hopefully they'll handle it. They didn't. So the second time she comes to me, I'm a senior and I have an open fourth. So I'm done after my third period. So she comes and finds me and is crying with a couple of her girlfriends and I can see the spit in her hair. And I'm like, what happened? She's like, you know, this boy called me a nigger and spit on me and

I just saw red. I didn't really know. I didn't know how to kind of, and unfortunately for him, he was walking past. And, you know, I did what any big brother would do. You know, I mean, I got my hands on him and I heard him. And after that, we were dragged to the principal's office. And as I'm explaining with the spit still in my sister's hair, like this kid's been harassing my sister, calling her Rachel Slurs, literally spit on her and

No, his dad's a prominent. They didn't believe us. His dad's a prominent lawyer in the city. He wasn't raised that way. And I'm just like, so you see the spit. You know that I'm probably the biggest athlete to ever come out of the school outside of Dusty Baker, two months away from going to UCLA. And you think I'm just going to beat this kid up for no reason. So pretty much that's how they took it.

absolutely no support from them, uh, while I'm suspended. Um, you know, they come and vandalize the school, hang a mannequin from the Oak tree with my football jersey on a dyed nigger, swastikas everywhere, burned down a, uh, a bathroom. And, uh, it was, it was crazy. The NAACP came out from, uh, LA to come down and support. And for a while there was Rocky, you know, my, uh,

you know, they threatened to kill me. So we had moved to just a different area and had around the clock security for a little while. And it was really just an eye opening experience. And I think what was most hurtful about it was that I didn't have the support of a school that I kind of put on my back. You know what I mean? I did everything for that school and dominated in football and dominated in basketball. And I think the one time I needed them outside of sports, I was met with

we don't believe you be different today absolutely way different no one could get away with throwing bananas on the basketball court yeah tell us about the bananas on the court and what that was even about you're you're at a another visiting castro i remember castro blaze is uh it was kind of a a more heavy populated white cowboy area in in in the city uh right outside the city in orangeville

And we were at this game and next thing I know, I'm shooting free throws and these guys are shaking bananas. And then I kind of look around because I'm obviously locked into the game and there's kids throughout kind of the place that have bananas. And I'm just like, what's going on right now? You know, this is 1997. So this is pre-phones, kind of pre, like you had to be there to see it. You know what I mean? And it was just...

It hurt, but I didn't allow it to be hurt. It was more fire. And actually after that game, my dad and I almost got in a fight with some of the kids that were wearing cowboy boots and cowboy hats that had the bananas. Like they thought that they can continue to talk and that definitely wasn't going to happen with me, but I got my fire from my dad. So we were ready to, you know, fight these five or six kids at this school until, you know, the police kind of intervened. But it was unfortunately in certain areas, it was, it was normal.

People are taught to hate. They're not born to hate. Yeah, absolutely. It's a taught trait, just like love is a taught trait. And unfortunately...

You know, we saw it years before I came around. I saw it as a teenager. And unfortunately, we still see it, you know, to this day. So it's it's it's it's a hard thing to swallow. You know what I mean? And me, not only did I get it from the white side, I would get it from the black side, too, because I wasn't white enough for the white kids and I wasn't black enough for the black kids. And so.

Love my dad his answer was to fight you want your respect you got to go get it and I had to fight kids for calling me white boy Black kids call me white boy or white kids calling me nigger So it was just a constant until I had fought enough to people to understand Okay, well maybe we could still be racist or mess with people just don't mess with him You know I mean because I had that you know I had to fight often growing up you saw a lot of drugs on a regular basis coke crack

Crank marijuana and you tried marijuana for the first time when you were 14 years old. Yeah, explain how that happened and how It took off from there. My dad was again a provider So he would work his long days or and and work his nights, but he he was a cigarette smoker And I remember I hated the smell of cigarettes, but I remember maybe the age of five or six

He was smoking something that didn't stay like it didn't smell like cigarettes and it kind of just peaked like what's that smell as a little kid obviously, you know not trying to as a little kid, but I would see it he would smoke his little joints and I just be like I kind of like that smell obviously much more than the cigarette hates to this day. I'm a cannabis advocate smoke a lot of cannabis I've never tried a cigarette one time or any of the heavier drugs, but you know cannabis piqued my interest at maybe

I hate to even say it like five, six, seven years old. Cause I liked the way it smelled. And then fast forward to 14 years old. Um,

You know, I took some of my dad's weed and tried it. Got a terrible headache. But I wasn't... You took it. He didn't give it to you. No, I took it. You just saw it. I took it. Found a joint in the drawer. Took it and went and smoked it and got a terrible headache and passed out. By yourself? No friends? No, a friend of mine. A friend of mine, Jesse, was with me. A little white kid that lived down the street from me. So he had a little rat tail. Rat tails used to be cool back in the day. Oh, yeah.

you know, we dipped off and smoked it and it gave me a headache. I wanted to go to sleep, but I wasn't a quitter, you know what I mean? So I tried it a couple more times and kind of found that it kind of just, it mellowed me out. It silenced the noise. It helped me sleep better and it helped me focus. So from right there, I wouldn't say I was hooked because obviously I didn't have the money to be hooked, but I would socially smoke with my friends. I had a lot of

majority of my friends from high school white so again with my upbringing i saw everything under the sun so they started dabbling in cocaine and they started popping norcos and all these other pills that it just didn't interest me but whenever we would smoke i'd be like i'm i'm all for that

bullying is a problem that now has become a prominent issue in high school. And you look at today, a lot of the mass murderers of these multi-casual events, most of these people were bullied. Absolutely. So the stats say that 20% of the students in high school are bullied. I was bullied as a kid. I stuttered. I couldn't order in a restaurant. People made fun of me. I couldn't give a speech in class. A lot of

people who are bullied become bullies. How did that happen for you? I wouldn't say I became a bully because I never look for it, but I was just always ready for it if it happened, which is, I don't know if that's a good or bad thing, but I just kind of had a chip on my shoulder. You know, I was an underdog, you know, obviously all American football and basketball, but when you get to the big stage, I come out here to LA and

I'm a small fish in a big pond. So what is going to set me apart? How am I going to find time when I'm playing with five All-Americans? It was just that fire of trauma, abuse, racism. And I just think my parents raised a little dog. I was outside from... I literally remember I was thinking about this the other day. I played outside from four or five years old until...

i went to college you know i was still when i get home from school in high school i would still go out and find some hoop somewhere to hoop or you know go do something so i was just outside and at that you know the the streets really raised me and you know if you grow up outside that's where you get you know your first kisses out there your first fights are normally in the neighborhood you know you play in the creek and you're building forts and you're climbing trees and so i was just one of those kids that

grew up outside. And I think it, all the stuff that happened to me, I kind of really hardened me. And it, it really, to me, it propelled me through college and allowed me to have an opportunity in the NBA because, like I said, I was the one that wasn't supposed to make it. You know, you had a, we had the number one, the back-to-back recruiting classes for UCLA, 1997's class was

I think two All-Americans, but the number one recruiting class. And then my class had four McDonald's All-Americans and then me. So I was an All-American, but these guys were higher ranked All-Americans. They played in the big McDonald's game. But, you know, I was the one out of all those both teams. My the sophomores that were sophomores when I was freshman, like I ended up, you know, having a longer career than all those guys. And I think it was just kind of my heart in the fire inside of me.

Let's go back to high school, freshman year of high school. You were Del Campo High School and you played four sports, basketball, football, baseball, and track. All-American in football and basketball. Football was your first love. My best sport, yeah. First love and best sport.

So, and I've seen you play football. We were over at my house one day for pickleball. That's right. We were playing catch a little bit. I think I'm pretty good throwing the ball around. But man, I remember your first pass. I think came in with like that whiz, that heat where I'm like, holy shit, this guy hadn't even picked up a ball and boom, there it is. Yeah. God gives talent. Yeah. God blessed me with football. Football is what I played in the neighborhood early. My dad was someone who was

Kicked out of the Marines and grinded his way to a tryout with the 49ers and was one of the last cuts from the 84 team with Bill Walsh as the head coach. So, and then after that, that didn't work. He played in tackle leagues in the weekends and flag football leagues. So basketball didn't really...

sparked my interest at all. You know, football was what we play. We play tackle on the grass. And then as we got a little bit older, we actually started playing tackle in the street. So it was just, you grew up rough, you know, skinned up knees and elbows and hips and everything. But it was just, I guess, a part of being the kids in the eighties. And as I continued to get bigger, I'm just like, oh, okay. Like, and then I started getting stronger and just football was easy to me. Like basketball, I picked up, started taking basketball serious, probably, uh,

seventh, eighth grade because I kept getting bigger. But football was always my love and always my passion. Recruited to play both. But just by the time I was done growing, I didn't really see too many 6'8 receivers in the NFL. And I just didn't know if there would be longevity there. So I chose basketball. But basketball was something I had to really, really, really work at to make.

At what point did you realize, hey, I'm pretty good and I'm probably better than everyone else I'm playing with? Well, I mean, I think to be able to get to UCLA, you have to be good. But yeah, I had to do a lot of learning there, you know, and this is before like I have obviously kids now and, you know, they're training as young as six years old, you know, but back then we didn't train because in high school, like I went from sport to sport to sport. So there was never time to train. So, you know, just

learning and understanding and watching and then obviously going to ucl i think one of the greatest benefits outside of how amazing the school is and the lifelong connections was every summer all the pros come up to the men's gym so i'm 17 just turned 18 and i'm out here in the summertime playing with kobe and shaq and paul pierce and you name it all these guys are in the gym on our campus i'm like holy shit so that was kind of really like my my crash course to

okay, if you want to be able to play this next level, this is the level of competition. So I think we got a cheat code because every summer we were able to play against the best players in the world because they were on our campus training and playing. You could just kind of walk in and say, hey, I'm on the team. Hey, Kai. So we always played as a team. No, we played as a team. So we would go in there as a team. So, you know, some... UCLA would play as a team. We would play as a group, you know, so...

You got Kobe on the other side, Shaq on the other side. Yeah, so I was, you know, Baron Davis and Earl Watson, they were our point guards and they were our leaders. So, you know, it would be us and, you know, Ben and a couple more guys and we would go out there and we would hang. We would definitely be able to hold our own. You know what I mean? We were a scrappy young team and then...

My first year actually was the 1998 NBA lockout. So as I'm starting, I'm coming from Sacramento, small town, I'm in LA now. I get to play a little bit in the summer with these pros and then the NBA goes into a lockout. And next thing I know, it's like our games are like Laker games. You know what I mean? All the stars are coming to our games. Shaq and Kobe were coming to our games. Like the whole gym would stop when they would come in. They was just like, you know what I mean? So it was kind of like a star studded event, but yeah,

I'm like, damn, this is what L.A. is like. You know what I mean? Like my first year, my crash course was, you know, we were the main center of attention and then the main attraction until the NBA started. We were out in the town whooping it up and doing all the things you should be doing. I'm not going to lie, Randy. We were out there. We were having fun. I mean, I'm in Hollywood parties and going to premieres and meeting stars. And it was fantastic.

As fun as it was, I was still homesick my first year. So I'm trying to get home twice a month, you know, catch a ride with someone from NorCal, you know, you put on the bulletin boards, anyone going up north, you know, in the dorms and you'd find someone and sometimes I'd ride with a stranger, you know, a student, but a stranger up north, I'd chip in on gas or whatever.

scrounge up enough money to buy a plane ticket. But I was still, as much fun as I was having, I was still homesick because it just wasn't, LA wasn't my lifestyle. You know what I mean? It became my lifestyle, but it wasn't my lifestyle to start. - We all have influential people in our life that helped shape our lives when we're younger. Could be mentors, coaches. Tell us about Steve Kenyon and the influence he had on your life. - Coach Kenyon, he's my guy, man. I love Coach Kenyon. My football coach.

And he was hard on me too. And that's what I appreciate. Actually pissed me off because I should have been playing varsity as a sophomore, but he just wouldn't let me. He just wouldn't let me. But just a really good guy, hard-nosed old school guy. He reminded me of Bud Kilmer from Varsity Blues, the coach from Varsity Blues. If anyone sees this, go back and watch for it. That was like my high school coach, just...

Tuit, great coach, great motivator. We always had really good teams and he just took a liking to me. I think because obviously I was so good, he saw something in me. And I was just, you know, to this day, someone I still talk to, just golf with him in this past, you know, past summer. So Coach Kenyon is someone who will be near and dear to my heart. When I actually won a championship with the Warriors, I retired after that year. So I wasn't there for the ring ceremony at the beginning of the year.

So the Warriors planned this ceremony for me to get my ring and somehow they got a hold of Coach Kenyon and Coach Kenyon was the one that presented me my ring when I went back to Golden State and got my championship ring. They surprised you that night. Draymond surprised you. Yeah, Draymond called me out but next thing I know I'm like, what the fuck is Coach Kenyon doing out there? And he's the one and I actually had bought rings for my twins too. So my twins are seven or eight at the time. And yeah, Coach Kenyon, you know, is the one that handed me my ring. So it was perfect.

Special night too. It was a 10 year anniversary of your mom's death.

you know, to get the kind word from Draymond and, and, and just, just to be able to be around those guys for a little while. It was dope. We're going to get to the championship in a minute and the ceremony in a minute. But one thing that I noticed that I saw that video, it's,

You didn't really tear up when you're back there in your hometown and you got your kids there and they're getting the rings. I mean, what were you feeling? You know, you win the championship the year before. You're not playing. You go back and it's sold out. It's bittersweet, Randy, to be honest with you, because I've always been someone that nothing was ever handed to me. And, you know, I've told this story before, but I didn't necessarily feel like I earned that ring because...

I got hurt going into the playoffs and I didn't really get a chance to play in the playoffs. I had probably the worst in my entire career, the worst sprained ankle I ever had that thing ballooned up. I'm like, what is this? Like I'm in the playoffs with a championship team and my ankle is just a monster. I'm like, God damn.

So I didn't even feel good until like the Western Conference. I've played a few minutes here and there. And so it really but instead of, you know, obviously being an NBA vet at that time, you know, it's not it's not an individual thing. It's not it's not a time to pout. It was hard for me individually, but I would never show that I would be in my practice, busting my ass and running, trying to get back in shape, making my ankle feel better and then just being supportive for the guys, you know what I mean, to be there with.

KD and Steph and Clay and Dre and Iggy and all those guys and Coach Kerr, like it was just such a dope environment to be in. So personally, it was really hard for me to accept that. Obviously, I'm almost eight years removed from that situation now. So obviously now when I look back, obviously my body of work, I think I deserved it. But I just thought in the moment that

that I didn't necessarily deserve that ring because I kind of felt like I got a free pass. You know, I was courtside with the rest of the high paying people on the other side watching this incredible team night in, night out, do what they do. You had a productive career at UCLA. You made it to the Sweet 16 twice.

Your coach was Steve Lavin, who you said was a terrible coach. Maybe terrible might have been. He was young. You know, Lavin was 30 when he got the job at UCLA. And you think about a 30-year-old coach who's normally in high school or maybe even below that. But he's at a major institution at 30. And just he was learning with us. Let's say that. We were probably the most in shape. The one thing we didn't have to learn is how to run. He would run our asses to death, 17s and 9s and 10s.

What does that mean for people who don't know?

I just felt in looking back and obviously talking like we didn't learn a ton from him But I think again what balanced that was being able to play in the summertime with all those pros where it wasn't so much Structure you just got to go out there and hold your own and I think that's what really helped our teams We would have mediocre team. I on my freshman year team. I want to say we probably had six or seven pros, but we still never won a conference never really made huge noise in the tournament and

But it was still the college I say outside of having kids is the best. I put my college experience above my MBA experience, to be honest with you, because I have lifelong friends. I just loved UCLA to death. Had a blast there. Let's talk about going from college to the pros. And I'm going to start with some statistics now on the difficulty of doing that.

There's roughly 500,000 high school basketball players, boys basketball players in the United States at any one given time. Of these, roughly 16,000 will go on to play a college level that includes Division I, II, and III. Of these 16,000, only 110 will ever play at least one NBA game. That's a 1 in 3,333 percent chance, 0.03 percent chance,

of getting there. Wow. So you got all these guys you coach right now including your kids. We talked about a friend of our son. What are you telling these kids about the odds of making it and how do you motivate them to keep going and try to make it? You know, my thing is preparing these young men. You know, how do you be a productive young man and grow as a man and as an athlete first and foremost. And then the other side I teach is the mental side.

I'm so busy. I wear multiple hats and have a house full of kids, but I also love coaching. I started coaching as soon as I retired. So, you know, I tell the parents they got to get better on their own time as far as skill set. But when they come to me, I'm going to teach them the mental side of the game and how hard because all those crazy numbers you say, not that some of those kids aren't good enough or the odds worked against them, but it's just a mental game. I've seen so many people better than me and

you know, all stars, all Americans that just never got an opportunity. And most of the time it's up here, you know, whether you, you know, you think you're a Kobe Bryant level score or you think you're bigger than the pro, but there's just a lot, there's so much shit that goes into it. So I say 90% of the game is mental. You know, once you get to that top level and then when, in whatever profession you're in, everyone can pretty much do everything. So what is going to allow you to either excel as a, as a grow on to be a star or just,

maintain in that league. And I just think it's your mindset and your approach to everything you do. And obviously when you're younger, I got lucky where I came into, when I came into the NBA, it was an older league, you know, that there was vets that were, you know, I'm coming in at 21, 22. I got guys on my team that are 38, you know, 38, 40 years old. So whether they're playing or not, they're giving back to guys like me, helping me, you know, avoid pitfalls and some of the

Horror stories you hear about the women are blowing all your money So I came into a league that you know guys wrap their arm around me and one guy particular was Chris Webber You know huge fan of Chris big brother almost a father figure to me In my earlier days of my MBA because I wasn't really getting a chance to play so I was you know debating all right I know I was really good at football I'm gonna I'm gonna start and I would tell my agent like hey I'm gonna give this one more try and I did it and it didn't work I'm gonna give this one more try and

Because I was in the NBA, I just wouldn't get a chance to play. And, you know, luckily this one time, but one summer, the summer, so I played four years and I didn't, I played when I first started at the Clippers. And then when I went to the Kings, I went back to my hometown team because I was playing there in the summertime with those guys and I wanted to play with them.

So I signed the deal there. But when I signed the deal there, Chris ends up getting traded to the 76ers to play with Iverson. And I'm a throw in at that point. So I'm just I help fill out that trade. And when I go to Philly, I don't get any opportunity to play. So it's two years of

cold weather and a lot of cannabis smoking and I'm kind of doubting myself at that time like I'm not getting any minutes I'm am I good enough what do I need to do to get out there and Chris was someone who continued to just stay in my ear and encourage me to work and I got a shooting coach and I'll just put in a ton of work and when I finally got a real opportunity to play that following year I took advantage of it let's go back to draft night hmm

So you're the 46th pick in the second round by the Memphis Grizzlies. Let's freeze frame it there before we go on from there. Was that a dream come true? To be honest with you, that night we had rented, I befriended a guy that had a car dealership out there and he used to give me some cars. He's moved on, rest in peace to Ray. So we're at his big old house pool, a bunch of people there and

I don't really know. I worked out for a lot of teams, but I don't really know where I'm going to get drafted. You know, I don't really have a sense of what's going on. You know, my agent says, you know, late first round, second round. So I'm like, OK, cool. First round comes. Cool.

You're watching these pics, huh? I mean, it wasn't like it was on TV today. Yeah, but I'm watching, but I'm acting like I'm not. Like, you know, I'm just like, I don't want to seem like I'm pressed. You know what I mean? So I'm watching, but I'm not. But you're hard to beating out of your chest. Yeah, because I just, the uncertainty. You know, the uncertainty. So I actually, you know, dip off at one point and smoke a joint.

You know, like I think it was after like the 33rd pick, 34th pick. And I'm seeing guys that I was better than and outplayed in college. And I'm thinking like, damn, what if I don't get drafted? How embarrassing. Like I'm thinking like if I don't get drafted, how embarrassing is it going to be that all these people came out to support me? And lo and behold, the 46th pick to Memphis was a huge exhale. But then as soon as I got picked, I was traded for Wesley Person.

And I forgot one other person. So I went from Memphis to Cleveland draft night. And then from there, you go to the D-League. Explain what the D-League is. Talk about the glamour and the 10-hour bus ride. No such thing. So I go to Cleveland and John Lucas, I still hurt a little bit because I just feel like he didn't give me an opportunity to

I felt like I had a solid training camp and even other guys on the team, you know, were super surprised. Like show them, like when I got cut, I got cut maybe 10 days, two weeks into training camp. And, you know, I'm getting hit up by veterans on the team. Like, girl, I can't believe they let you go. Like you did your thing, man. Keep your head up. You know, you'll be back up here one day. So from there, uh,

I go back home and it's a huge embarrassment. You know what I mean? Because I was supposed to be the one that made it. Although I wasn't supposed to be the one that made it, I showed that I could make it. So, you know, I get drafted and everyone thinks, oh, you're an instant millionaire. Like it doesn't work that way. So I get cut maybe two weeks into training camp and then I get the opportunity to go to the D League. This is before it was the G League. It was the second year in existence. So it was the NBA minor league program, kind of like a farm system for baseball. And it's obviously a lot bigger now. But when I got there, it was the second year. So I'm in...

Fayetteville, North Carolina. Um, Jay Cole's from there, but I was back there when, before anyone knew what Fayetteville, North Carolina was. And the funny part about it was it was a, it was a military or an army town or military. I'm not exactly sure what, but there was a big, um,

I think it was an army base there. And there was always fights on the weekends. And I'd be like, yo, why are there always fights? And they're just like, you know, well, these guys are coming back home and their women have been out running the streets. And then the husbands come home. And it's just when I tell you every single time I went out, I saw two or three fights. I'm like, damn, this is crazy. So long story short, man, I'm grinding there, playing well.

The coach has a son that went to North Carolina that was a highly touted All-American. And I beat him out in training camp. I feel like I'm the best player on the team. I'm playing really well. But then I get hurt. And when I get hurt, it opens up the door for his son to come in and start. And then once I got healthy, I was playing spot minutes. So I was looking at the G League or the D League as a pit stop. But, you know, while we're there, we're standing and

run down hotels and bus ride nasty eight hour, 10 hour bus rides. If we did fly, it'd be like the La Bamba plane. Like I'd rather walk than be on some of these planes that they had put us on. So it was just the early inception of the league. And it was, it was, it was nasty.

But really, that was what, you know, kind of spark relit the fire in me, I guess, to be like, you know, I know I'm better than this. I know I can be on that next level. I just have to show it. So unfortunately, I didn't really get a chance to show it there. I showed it the first half of the season. I got hurt and I didn't really play that much in the second half of the season.

the following summer um no teams are really biting so i have to go to something called the the aba i think it's called a team in long beach so this is where uh you know we're going to juarez mexico to play games and was it the long beach jam long beach jam what a name long beach jam going to juarez mexico and just all these oddball little gyms terrible gems to play in actually our gym was cool we played in the pyramid at long beach state

But all the other gyms were nasty. And this is where Dennis Rodman and I first crossed paths because he's trying to get back in the NBA. So one day, next thing I'm like, Dennis Rodman walks into practice. I'm like, what the fuck is Dennis Rodman doing here with his pit bull and his entourage? And the coach is like, hey, guys, we got a new player. I'm like, what? Dennis Rodman? So Dennis is there. But unfortunately, I'm only with Dennis for like,

probably a week and a half because I'm playing really well. I'm putting up big numbers and you know once Dennis got there I probably played maybe two or three games with Dennis and then I got called up to the Clippers for a 10-day and the 10-day contract is pretty much a tryout. You get 10 days to kind of show what you're worth and my first 10 days went really good. Played well. Then I got a second 10-day. Played well and then after the second 10-day they either have to let you go or sign you for the rest of the year and luckily Mike Dunleavy was the head coach of the Clippers at that time decided to sign me for the rest of the year and then that's when my journey started.

So you went to the Kings the next year.

inherited the Kings because I moved there. So I'm kind of representing SAC. You know, everyone's talking shit and it's a big thing with Kobe and Webb and Alden and Shaq and all these guys. So, but every summer when I'm not at UCLA, I'm going home and Chris has me come up to the Kings facility. So I'm training with these pros every, you know, strength training and hanging out and, you know, getting to know him better and Jason Williams at the time. Then they traded Jay Will and got Mike Bibby. So I'm hanging out with all these guys. So after my first season with the Clippers,

I don't spend it in LA. Like I'm excited. I made it. I want to go home and blow the money I made. And, and, and, but while I'm training, I'm training at this facility. So, um, you know, Rick Adelman had, had asked me like, what was going on? I was like, you know, there's some interest from the Clippers. He's like, I really like what you've done this summer here. You know, everyone's been raving about the kind of person you are and how hard you work. He's like, you want an opportunity to play here. And I'm just like, hell yes. I'm, you know, get a chance to play for my hometown team. So, um,

So season comes, I'm backing up Peja Stojakovic, one of the greatest shooters of all time, but I'm still getting solid minutes. I'm getting 15 to 20 minutes a game until they decide to trade Chris. And they decided to trade Chris I think right before the All-Star break, so maybe late January, early February.

And I was heartbroken, heartbroken because, again, I'm playing for my hometown team. My family's coming to the game every night. I'm playing. I'm playing on a good team. And then all of a sudden, you know, I find out I'm a part of the trade that that sent me or excuse me, the St. Chris to Philly. And, you know, for two years, it was tough out there.

Your first game playing for the Kings, you had 17 points and nine rebounds. How good did that feel? It felt great. You know, like I said, I put the work in. I genuinely put the work in and had great mentors and older players around me that were encouraging me. And I just felt like, man, what a dream come true to be able to come home and

play for my hometown team, but this is when my hometown team is still a really good team. So it was just, you know, I stepped, I remember that game was at Dallas too. And I, you know, Rick trusted me and, you know, I knew what I had to do and I went out there and played well. He said you had to audition every single day for that role. Don't people in the real world have to do that as well? And aren't we only as good as we were yesterday? Only as good as your last game. So when I said that, what I meant by that was because I was on one year deals.

You know, so every, you know, I had to every night, not only was I playing for my team, but I was playing for the rest of the league to kind of see what kind of player I was. And again, I think I made a huge mistake by going to.

The Kings because they kind of got me on the carousel of, you know, obviously moving out to Philly. And then when you don't play, I think the thin line between having a long career obviously is a lot of mental, but it's just opportunity. And I didn't get any opportunity in Philly. One of the coaches was Mo Cheeks and he was an asshole and kind of made it his goal to kind of fuck with me.

And that almost ended really bad for him. But, you know, so I play with the Clippers on a 10 day half the season and then I take a jump to Sacramento and I'm playing the first half of the season. Then I don't play at all when I go to Philly. So the next year and a half, two seasons, I'm just sitting on the bench. I'm just there. And it's just like so, you know, after that season.

I didn't really have no phones ringing. I didn't really know what I was going to do. So my UCLA teammate, Baron Davis, had just got traded to the Warriors. And I was at home in Sacramento and he calls me up one morning like, hey, we're going to play some pickup up here. Do you want to come up? I'm like, shit, all right, I'll drive down. So I take the hour and a half drive from Sacramento to the Bay, go out there that day and play really well. Not knowing the head coach, Don Nelson, was watching. He was up in his office and he was watching us play that day.

And we get done and, you know, we're shooting some free throws after and I'm literally about to walk out of the gym and he comes down and kind of puts his arm around me. He's like, where are you going to camp at, son? I'm just like, coach, I don't know. I don't have nowhere. And he's just like, I really like what I saw today. He's just like, we have a full training camp roster. You know, we have 19 guys, 16 or 14 or 13 are guaranteed. I think 16 are partially guaranteed.

He's like, I can't promise you anything, but if you come and show what you did today, day in, day out, I'm going to give you an opportunity. And to me, that was all I needed because the coaches in Philly didn't even give me that opportunity. So when he kind of instilled that confidence in me, I just, I was a man on a mission. And whether I had to fight you, slap you, or just play basketball, like my, I was going to make that team. So I ended up, you know, being the last, and I think I was the 20th guy coming to training camp and beat out the three guys or four guys I invited to camp and

beat out their partially guaranteed guys and I make that team. And to start that season, I'm at the end of the bench, but I'm happy to be there. And I know that this coach believes in me. So I know that I'm going to get an opportunity. And as I would get these little minute, you know, a few minutes here, a few minutes there, I would make the most of it. I knocked down a few threes. I would play defense. I get rebounds. I dive on the floor and my leash became to get a lot longer. And I went from the last guy invited to camp to one of the last guys on the bench to the

the first or second guy off the bench to starting all in the same year.

What a remarkable turnaround. Yes. Must have felt pretty darn good. It was good. I mean, because again, I put the work in. You know what I mean, Randy? Like I said, when I was telling you about my championship ring, like nothing has ever been handed to me. Like I had to grind for everything. And I think that's why I played so hard. And I appreciated absolutely every game I played in because I knew it could be gone tomorrow. You know, so nothing was ever handed to me. So to be rewarded for my hard work and have a coach that believed in me. And then again,

Now I'm only an hour and a half away from home, so I'm not too far away from home. So I still got family coming to all the games. My parents are driving the hour and a half trip from Sac to the Bay to come watch every home game. So I'm in a really good situation. I already talked about your mom a little bit. Your fifth year in the league, your mom gets diagnosed with cancer. I think on November 1st, she died 26 days later, stage four cancer.

Kidney cancer, but it spread all over. She was your best friend. She was my dog. My mom was my best friend. And thinking back on it again, I think last week was the 17-year anniversary. The one thing that I was so thankful for was that she got to see me play because she was on some of those tough phone calls at night where, Mom, I don't know if I'm going to be able to play. I don't know if I'm going to make it. Maybe I should go play football. Yeah.

I don't know what I'm going to do. Like she was on the other end of, you know, a lot of those conversations. So, you know, for me to get an opportunity and that season that we had before the season where I, you know, grinded and made the warriors, we made NBA history that year. You know, that was the year that, you know, my, my now cohost, Steven Jackson, he gets traded to our team the end of January and we're at the bottom of the Western conference. And we win like 19 out of 23 or 19 out of 24 games and,

to steal the last spot in the playoffs. The Clippers lost and we won and we were in. And then we were playing against Dirk Nowitzki and the Dallas Mavericks. Dirk is the MVP that season. I think they win 67 games.

But our coach, Don Nelson, was the one that was over in Dallas first. And him and Mark Cuban had some kind of falling out before he left. So Nelly felt like that first round game or series against Dallas was our championship. I mean, he was on it. We were so well prepared. This is the first time that they ever put smaller players on Dirk. So myself and Steven Jackson were guarding Dirk and we were slowing him down and we were double teaming him. And we just frustrated the shit out of that team. So yeah,

We were able to make NBA history the first eight seed to be a number one seed in seven games. It happened before, but it never happened in seven games. So that happened and then we ended up losing the next round. So my mom is a part of all that, you know, so she's in the crowd and, you know, hanging out. And my parents would even come out and sometimes go to the clubs with us after the games. Like they were just so proud of me and happy that,

They're around. And I love the fact that she got to see that because again, as you said, that season hit, I'm going back to Golden State for my second season. And the season starts beginning in November back then. She was, I remember we just got on a plane. We had just got done playing the Supersonics and I get a call from her as I'm stepping on the plane and she's crying. I'm like, what the fuck's going on? And she's like, baby, I'm sick. I'm like, what's wrong? She's like, I have cancer. I'm like, fuck.

what do you mean you got cancer? She's like, yeah, and it's bad. I'm like, what's bad? She's like, it's stage four and it's all over my body. I'm like, well, don't worry. You know, like UCLA has one of the best cancer research programs. Like I'm going to get you. She's like, no, baby, it's not like that. I'm like, what do you mean? She's like, it's bad. I'm just like, so we kind of cry a little bit on that phone. And then as soon as I get back to the Bay, I drive up there and kind of find out that it's spread all throughout her body. She had two

Huge softball sized lumps in her chest and the scan was so blurry that her whole upper body was just filled with cancer. So unfortunately she passed, you know, in 26 days of being diagnosed. And that was probably one of the hardest things I've ever had to go through because again, our family had been through so much to get to that point. My parents, believe it or not, we're still together at that point.

Um, and I'd finally made it. And, you know, my goal was, you know, my mom was, you know, telling me that, okay. Cause I was, I used to tell my mom once I got a little older, like, mom, this isn't for you. Like, why don't you leave? You know what I mean? But women back then were very dependent on whoever brought the money home. It wasn't, there wasn't independent women back in the eighties and nineties, you know, where I came from. So my goal was always to, to, to buy my mom a house. That was going to be my first thing to do. And

When I finally started making the money to be able to do that, you know, I lost her. We all have proud moments in our lives, things that are special. When we look back at our parents, I think back to my own situation and my mom's.

When our company went public, she had put a little money in the company and it was a life-changing event for all of us. For my grandmother who grew up in poverty and foster care and used to sleep in closets because back then people would get paid to have a foster student and they'd cheer her like the help. I remember her coming out to see my house. She'd been to my house and saying thank you. And I remember thinking like,

Making my grandmother proud was a huge moment in my life as well.

Talk to us about the special memory of your Mohawk and what that meant to you guys. Yeah, I don't, to be honest with you, I don't even know where it came from. I don't know where the idea came from, but I just wanted to change up going into that playoff situation the previous year before she died. And this barber was really dope and he's just like, let's try this. He's like, let's do a Mohawk. I'm like, I don't want a whole one like all the way down the back. That's not really my style. He's like, no, just do a half Mohawk.

Like, what the hell is a half Mohawk? He's like, trust me. And I did this haircut. And when I tell you again, I wasn't the star on that team. I was definitely a prominent role player on that team. That haircut was so famous in the Bay Area, man. It was crazy. They ended up calling it a faux hawk. I guess just the forward part of my hair was up and it was dope. And I think for maybe like the next two or three years, four years, every time I got to the playoffs, I would do it and kind of honor my mom.

So that was cool. That was a fun time, man. That's when I first really, really jumped on the NBA scene and I was known and recognized everywhere where I went because we had a team of misfits. You know what I mean? We were one of those teams that we were wild. And this is back obviously when cannabis is legal now in the league, but we were smoking weed every night in the clubs, every night drinking, having fun, hanging out. But then we would always bust our ass the next day in the games. Like we were a team that hung out and kicked it and went hard off the court and

But went really hard on the court, too. So it was just a it was a special time in my life and kind of really, although it was my fifth year into the NBA, I kind of felt like it was almost like my first year because it was the first year I really got to play. And I kind of kind of became a household name after that. If your mom were here today.

What would you say to her? I just give her a big hug. The crazy part about it is my mom loved kids, loved kids. Like I said, when she used to come up and have to be the yard duty because I was fighting so much, everyone, all the girls, that's how I kind of started getting girls to like me because they like my mom. So, oh, your mom's so nice. And all the girls would hang around her as she was at the yard duty. And, you know, she just had such a great aura and energy about her. But I say all that to say that my mom passed away.

November 27, 2008. And the twins came the following year, almost a year, you know, after my mom passed. So the one thing I wish was she just would have got to see my kids. You know what I mean? That's the one, not necessarily regret, but I just wish that, you know, as loving as she was and,

So motherly that I wish that she would have got a chance to meet, you know, my twins. I grew up in Detroit, as you know. Grew up a Pistons fan. And we won. We were a great team for many years when I was growing up in high school. The bad boys. Yes. So we had Bill Ambeer. We had Rodman. I didn't know he went to school in Palos Verdes. Yeah.

He went to school out here. So Bill Embier was the only NBA player whose dad made more money than he did. Crazy. It was funny. So the twins just played at Palos Verdes the other night. And I saw it. I was like, is that Bill Embier? He was like, oh, yeah. He was the man out here. And his family had good money. A lot of money. Yeah, I didn't know that. Yeah, his dad was the CEO of a big company. Okay. Side note here. So at a charity event, I bought a two-on-two with Rick Mahorn.

Right. And Rick Mohorn was part of the bad boy team. He'd get in there. He had a big ass. He was a bruiser. Bruiser. Yeah. Getting in a fight. People hated him playing against him. So I was super excited. And Rick Mohorn, I guess, was the assistant coach on the WNBA team. With Bill Ambeer. With Bill Ambeer. So I get a note that he can't play, but Bill Ambeer can come over.

And so I said, okay. So I scheduled some of my boys from Detroit Country Day where Chris went. Yeah, Chris went there, right? Yes, he went there. Are you guys the same time? So he was a freshman at Country Day when I was a freshman at Michigan. Okay. Oh, so you guys missed each other by four years. We missed each other. But the interesting thing is as a freshman –

He played at Chrysler. Country Day was in the finals. Oh, okay. We were in Division C as a small private school. So you went back to support. But he was tomahawking over as a freshman, staring at everyone as a 14-year-old kid. So Bill Ambeer comes over. I call my friends from Detroit. They fly in to see this. And it's now three on three because I want to take advantage of Bill coming to the house. Come on.

Oh, he came to the house. Yeah, he came to my house and played. Oh, shit. That's dope. So it was very cool. But the guy's like 6'10", and he's not really in shape then, but it doesn't matter. I'm 2 1⁄2", and I'm the tallest guy. So it's like I'm playing against Bill. I don't think people understand, though, because you'll see us on TV, and we all look the similar size, and you'll see a guy in the band. It's like, oh, he sucks. But to get next to us and to see us play with just regular...

People like people don't understand how big strong fast and how good? NBA players are it was he's a monster. Yeah, and the funny thing is too. He was staying at the Beverly Hills hotel or done that Beverly Hills the Beverly Wilshire Hotel before became a Four Seasons like you need a ride back. There's no uber then so so my friend Mark Borman had a Prius and

And so the funny thing was Bill Lambert getting into the Prius like a Yugo. It's an Indian style in the front seat. Going back there. So you were a bad boy as well. I mean, you were a very controversial player. Yeah. People hated you when they played against you. Yeah. But that was a good role for you. You made it as that role player. Well, they loved that. They hated to play against me and would love to play with me. Yeah.

I just kind of figure when I got, I feel like the chance with Golden State was kind of like my second opportunity, my second chance. And by all means necessary, I wouldn't say that I took my first opportunity for granted because, again, I had to go through the D League and get to the league. But I think that two years of not playing really took it out of me. And when I got a chance to play again, it was just amazing.

i was on fire i was playing with my hair on fire so i was just again if i had to play basketball if i had to protect my teammates i was taught at an early age to protect your family at all costs so i was a i had a dad that my brother's sister got in a fight no matter what happened if i didn't get into it or protect them i was going to get my ass whooped so i've always been a protector always so that's how i kind of translated that into the nba

You know, I lost probably close to 600, 700,000 in the league, and it wasn't ever because...

For being fined. For being fined. Yeah. It was never really because guys were messing with me. It was always because I was coming to the defense of my teammates. So I was a guy that you just knew that you had to work that night playing against me. I was going to, you know, constant energy. I'm going to rebound. I'm going to knock down shots. I'm going to play hard physical defense because I grew up watching the bad boys, the Pistons. And I grew up, you know, watching magic. And I was a football player at heart. You know what I mean? So I love the physicality. So yeah.

I was just one of those guys, again, that's just like, you know, again, I wasn't the guy averaging 20 or 30, but I feel like I affected a lot of games just with my energy and my attitude and how hard I played. So I was just someone that, you know, the team's just, you know, like, damn, I got to deal with him tonight, that kind of thing.

You had notoriety while you were playing as this controversial, angry guy. And there was an incident when you were playing for the Magic where you fake, ball fake in front of Kobe's face. Tell us about that moment and then the moment where he called you from a block. Yeah, it was, it was interesting because, you know, I'm going to backpedal a little bit. So Kobe, I got to UCLA in 97, 98.

And Kobe got there in 96. And, you know, it's well documented that, you know, Shaq was kind of the, you know, obviously the man at that point and gave Kobe a hard time. So we would always see Kobe on campus at UCLA. Like you would think he would have went there. He was eating there, hanging out there, getting the girls there, chilling there, working out there, playing. I'm just like.

Damn. So I used to, he used to come in and train in Pauley Pavilion after we were done practicing. So I would sometimes go back in Pauley and just watch him. I'm just like, damn, this dude's only two years older than me. Like he's fucking good. Like I would just watch Kobe. So it was an admiration at first and kind of being able to see him and like all LA, LA, we got to see him grow from like a boy to a man. So I was really a huge fan of Kobe at first because I just saw the work he would put in. He's a motherfucker, worked his ass off. So yeah,

So, you know, fast forward me making the league and I'm finally starting to play like I didn't I missed MJ by a year. So Kobe was the man. So he was the one that back in those those UCLA days when I was playing, he was the kind of the barometer like, man, if I'm going to be able to I got to be able to guard someone like him. So fast forward to 2009.

Orlando versus the Lakers the year before they played in the finals and the Lakers had got them So they were expecting these teams to go back and in Orlando had reloaded They got me Vince Carter and Jason Williams in the offseason. So we were expected to Compete in the final. So this is a March game, you know a playoff start in April So it was just a a chippy early playoff pop up, you know, they were devon it as a potential final preview and

And we were just going back and forth and knowing Cove and playing against Cove. Cove was a mental giant. I mean, obviously physically skilled and worked his ass off and can score. But he also did a lot of just dirty Cove shit that the refs wouldn't call because he was Cove. He would elbow, grab, do all kinds of shit. And I just got he had elbowed me in my sternum and like knocked the wind out of me. And I wanted to like chase him down and beat him up at that point, like literally on the court.

But this one particular inbounds play and it was dope because we had Cove's last interview on all the smoke and we literally talked. It was the first time we'd ever talked about it. And I told him like, I want to fuck you up. I want to fight you. And he starts kind of started laughing. But the whole thing was he was just doing shit that the rest weren't calling. I was getting called for and I was pissed off. So I was just like, I wanted to fight him. So, you know, the ball fake wasn't premeditated. It kind of just happened.

We ended up winning. I had a big three down the stretch to clinch the game. Fast forward into the season, we're in the Eastern Conference Finals and we lose to Boston. So Boston and the Lakers play in the finals. Kobe gets his revenge from a previous years of losing to Boston. They win again.

And then that off season, um, contracts got a little funny. I was hurt. I was going to get a certain amount of money. And then when it was my turn to re-up that money wasn't there anymore. So I was a little disappointed that I felt like I had been lied to and let on. So I was open to moving, uh, because I wasn't, uh, I didn't really, you know, want the money that was being offered at the time. Um, so I'm talking to Pat Riley and for context, this is the year that, that, that

you know, on the low that the Miami Heat are forming their big three. So LeBron's headed there. Chris Bosh is headed there. And I'm talking to Pat Riley, you know, talked to D Wade one time and, you know, Pat's telling me like, you know, our closing lineup will be, you know, Dwayne, you, Mike Miller, or Dwayne, you, Mike Miller, Braun, and Chris Bosh. And I'm thinking like, we could do some damage with that lineup. So I'm thinking that I'm going to go from Orlando just up the freeway to Miami and

And I get a call from a number I don't know. And people tell you now that even know me, like sometimes I don't answer numbers that I do know. But for some reason this day I picked up the phone and it was someone like, what's up? Is Matt there? I was like, this is Matt. I was like, who's this? He's like, it's Kobe. I'm like, get the fuck out of here. Like, who's this? He's like, nah, man, it's Kobe. And then once he said it again, I was like, oh, it really is Kobe. I was like, what's up, man? He says, oh, man, what's going on? I was like, I don't know. I was like, congratulations on the championship. He's like, I appreciate it.

And we kind of start talking, you know, anyone crazy enough to fuck with me is crazy enough to play with me. Like, what are you going to do this season? So I kind of tell him I might be going to Miami. He's like, well, do you want to be a Laker? And I told you I was raised a Magic Johnson Laker fan.

I'm like, hell yeah, I want to be a Laker. And literally like three or four days later, I was a Laker. Like I had signed, flew out to LA, signed the contract. And, you know, that kind of began. And it was weird, too, because even up to this day, like some people like, oh, you know, Kobe didn't fuck with you. You guys weren't. It was just like if they knew how close we really were, like he literally recruited me to the team. He recruited Ron Artest the season before. I guess he was just tired of dealing with us assholes. He's just like, I'm gonna get these two assholes on my team.

So me and Ron are Lakers now, but we really got a chance to just bond. You know, we went from, you know, an admiration I had for him because I saw his come up and then obviously the respect I had because he was the best player in the league at the time. But, you know, just day to day, seeing his work ethic and hanging out with him off the court and going out. And everyone used to say like, yo, Kobe never went out. How'd you used to get? Kobe would want to go out with me. You know, I mean, every we had a I had a tradition every time I would go.

we'd go on the road. Like as soon as I land, I'd go in the bathroom and, and, and put all the towels down and smoke. I would, cause I would smoke every time we landed. So COVID would hit me like, Oh, what are you about to do? Well, you know, I'm about to smoke. He's like, when you're done smoking, let me know, let's go do, let's go get some food or let's go out. Would he smoke? No, he wouldn't. He told me if we won a championship together, we would smoke. But we, unfortunately we didn't. Um, but for some reason he took to me and, and I think, you know, obviously we were super close teammates, but I think we became closer post-career. Um,

because he started coaching Gigi and I was coaching the twins so we would always go out to Orange County and play and you know one thing that's a mom yeah so it wasn't a mom but then that was just OGP out there mom said he came later but I remember backtrack a little bit I remember right when I got to the Lakers and

You know, Cove took the twins in like they were his, like it was always uncle Cove. I'd probably say the twins were maybe four years old when they started getting cut. Every time Kobe released a shoe, the boys Austin and no, this is a Carter and Isaiah. This is the high school boys. Yeah. Austin's the new four year old or four month old. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So, uh, every time Cove released a shoe, the twins would get it. And then when they started playing basketball teams, he was in the whole team shoe. So, you know, fast forward me being retired now. And as soon as I retired, I want to start coaching my kids. So, uh,

You know, he'd be out in Orange County. We, you know, connect like, yo, what time you guys, what time does Gigi play tomorrow? What time do you guys play tomorrow? And it would be sometimes where we'd play two hours before. We'd play the 8 o'clock or 9 o'clock game. Gigi might not play until 11 or 12. Coe would be there at 8 o'clock in the morning watching these fucking 8-year-olds play. Like, 8-year-olds is not too much fun to watch. But the fact that he would come and watch my kids play, it just, it spoke volumes. And then obviously, you know, I'd go and watch Gigi play and...

i surprised the twins for their 10th birthday with the with the surprise workout from co i i kept them home from school and they were just what are we doing super excited they didn't know where we were going hour drive they passed out on the way there i tell them to wake up and when they get out and we go into this gym and it's cold and they just oh my god dad and he gave but he when i tell you he worked them so hard he made one of the twins cry and i loved it like i didn't step in as a dad at all i'm just like take this you know i mean this is one of the greatest ever do it like listen to what he's doing and

He just kind of really became, obviously he was Uncle Cope to the boys, but just the way he loved my sons and, and, and supported them and always sent to this day, you know, Vanessa's kind of stepped up to where Cope left off. Vanessa still sends the boys shoes all the time. She just sent their whole high school shoes. So Cope and I were really close and, and it broke my whole heart. You know, obviously the, you know, the world felt it, but, you know, to be as close as we were and, and then to hear, you know, how it went down and they were traveling to a game and,

all that kind of stuff. It just, it really, to this, it still gives me chills to think about. It's just like, you know, you never think superheroes are going to die. And, you know, we all lost Cope much too soon. How are his kids doing today? To be honest, I don't talk to the kids a ton. You know, Vanessa and I will, you know, I'll text and reach out with, you know, we maybe text once or twice a month. Just I'll check in, you know, hey, how are you and the girls doing? And, you know, kind of seeing the progress because they're kind of starting to build up Cope

continue to build code legacy on the Nike side and doing stuff with Nike and stuff. So I'm always just kind of checking in and sending my love to her and the girls. And, you know, from the outside looking in, they look like they're doing great. You played 15 years in the league. The average player plays 4.8 years in the league. You outplayed

lottery picks. Yeah. And you said that is because you know what your role is. How important is it for anyone to be successful to know what their role is? I think that applies to life, to business, and then obviously to the game. I just think, you know, there's special players and I don't focus it on our game. There's just some guys that are God-given monsters. You know, you look at Steph and you look at Kobe and Michael Jordan, those guys are

Kevin Durant could score 30 points in their sleep. You know, that doesn't wasn't necessarily my game. And I think that's where a lot of guys lose it is they have an idea of what they want to be or what they think they can do. But sometimes the skill don't add up to that. You know, so I just found out early on with that Golden State team, what my role was, what I'd like to score more points and took more shots. Absolutely. But that just wasn't my calling. You know, I used to once I had bounced around those first four years, every time I got on the team, you know, coach, what are you looking for me to do?

He would tell me, you know, I would go out and do that shit and play defense, you know, be tough nose to be a deaf nose defender, rebound, get loose balls, give us 50, 50 balls and knock down your shots. You know, so there was sometimes two shots, five shots. Sometimes I get 15 shots, but whatever it was, just be efficient with your shots and and play my role. So I just knew every time what my role was when I was out there. And that's why I played until I didn't want to play anymore. You know, again, I was never I was a role player. I was a journeyman, but I

Not too often do you get to go out on your own terms in professional sports? Sometimes it's you know, you play until you're too old and you're a good player and it's just time to go or Sometimes the mental gets into it or just sometimes they just don't want you in the league no more but I was someone who was a bad boy and I got to go out on my own accord I was able to actually go out with two years left of my deal. So when I retired in 2017 I still had

Two years of being paid NBA money. And that's when kind of figuring out what was next, you know, kind of kicked in. We'll talk about that in a minute, but I still want to go back. I want to talk about the We Believe team in 2007. You were elected captain of the team that year. And I think we all see that.

the letter C on the jerseys. And I don't think we know how that happens. So what's the process of becoming a captain? Is it, you know, you put your vote in a hat, no one looks at it, or you raise your hand? Normally it's the best players. That's it. Normally it's the best players or just who the leaders are. But if you think back on how... Who decides, though? The coach. The coach picks the captain. But the crazy part is if you think about how significant me having a C on my, you know, being a captain was...

I was the last invitee to training camp that year. I'm the 20th guy coming into training camp. And I even forgot I was a captain on that team. It's crazy you said that. Like, when it was all said and done, like, I was a captain.

captain on a team that I wasn't even supposed to be on, you know what I mean? So it was just, and, and what was funny about that, and I don't ever want to seem like I'm more than what I was, but wherever I went, I was always a voice that can talk to the star, but also was able to get guys to rally around me because I led by example. I wasn't someone that was going to talk your face off or try to over-talk because I knew what my role was, but

I would play hard as fuck and I would do anything for my team. So I just think I always gain, like you said, guys hated to play against me, but they love to play with me because I was a teammate that you want to go on the foxhole with because I was going to be if they mess with you, they mess with me. We know we're going to war today. And I just think I led by example. That's why I had a I had a prominent voice.

And I played with a lot of stars, but I was one of those few role players that had the respect from the stars as well. I think everyone thinks to be successful in life, you got to be a superstar. But talk to all the non-sports people. How important is it to just be a team player and be a part and contributor to the team? Even in business, I like to be a small part of something big and then a big part of nothing. You know what I mean? I played my role and that's...

That's important. That's very important. I felt like I was a blue collar worker in the NBA. I was one of those hard hat lunch pail type guys. And I was able to carry that obviously through the league, but into business.

you know, being able to just understand and being a good person. I think one thing that gets overlooked, especially with professional athletes is understanding how powerful being a good person is. I was someone that always shook hands, always took pictures, always signed autographs because as you start, as I started going through the NBA, I realized like all these people sitting around courtside are people like you and the owners of Disney and big corporation people. So I just started realizing that, you know, my future could be sitting courtside tonight. So I was someone who,

I would let kids come out and rebound for me while I was warming up. I'd pass the ball to people, and especially too because everyone thought I was a thug or a bad guy. So I kind of got to, and this is, I think most of this is pre-social media. I mean, I caught social media like my last three or four years in the league. So what ESPN said about me or what the LA Times wrote about me was kind of like law because I didn't have a voice at that time. You know what I mean? So to be able to show people the other side or the softer side or just the

articulate side or the gentle side, I knew how to kind of play that game early on. And, and I think I'm aspirational because, you know, most of the, you know, guys like Steph and LeBron and, and, and, and even Kobe, like when the, when the ball starts dribbling, like their stardom will lead them into whatever their next venture is. And they'll have a ton of success and not cause they don't deserve it, but they're going to get an opportunity because they are star and

I was able to get those same opportunities being a role player by doing everything I just told you, you know, doing shit the right way and being respectable and showing respect and giving love and taking that extra moment to take a picture. Maybe if I don't want to or sign an autograph when I'm tired, I just kind of went out of my way to show the world that pre social media that I wasn't this person.

villain that I kind of took on a villain persona and just to show the person that it was almost like it's funny I'll backtrack a little bit so after I bought fake co I got death threats people don't come to LA we're gonna kill you like all this kind of wild shit and towards the end of my career like I let the twins start traveling with me and they were huge wrestling fans they love they would always they're always wrestling each other and doing wrestling tricks and shit so I would take them on road trips and they would be like dad I

why do the fans boo you when they announce your name in the starting lineup? And I'm like, damn, like, what do I tell them?

And it just hit me 'cause they love wrestling. I'm just like, well, daddy always has to guard the best player. So daddy every night has to, he has to, I'm like the undertaker that takes on Hulk Hogan. You know what I mean? Like the best players, the stars, they're like Hulk Hogan, but daddy's like the undertaker. So, oh yeah, you wear black and you go out there and then, so I just kind of gave him that, like, I'm the guy that you don't want to see coming. I'm the guy that you boo for because you know I'm gonna go out there and try to, you know, make it tough for the best player every night.

So just them kind of seeing that, that and understanding that. But I was given that villain role. And at first it kind of hurt because I didn't feel like I was a bad person. But then I was just like, shit, if this is what it's going to take for me to last in this league, like, let me be a bad motherfucker then. So that's when I kind of started not caring as much. Again, like I would, this is when I would.

No slap refs in the offseason. I had to slap a coach one time in a summer league game in San Francisco because he was cussing at me from the sidelines and people were like, what the hell? Like I went over and literally slapped him. Like I just kind of started being like, you want to be, you want a bad guy, I'm going to show you how to be a bad guy. So I kind of embraced that role. But at the same time, it was in me, but it wasn't who I was. So I really tried to, at times, as I was just saying, show people the full side.

of who Matt Barnes was. - Was your kids fly on the team plane when you said they traveled? - They got, yeah, they got to the, what team was that? Yeah, so the team that was the dopest about it was the Golden State Warriors at the very end. They were on the team plane, they were sitting up by the players. Coach Kerr would let them come and practice. I remember in the Western Conference Finals,

I'm still getting treatment because I'm not healthy. We're playing against Houston. And next thing I know, look out there and the twins are shooting with Steph and KD like on the court. I'm like, what the fuck are you like? I was about to call them back over, but coach Kerr, like just let them, let them do it. So they're over here shooting in the Western conference finals and,

I remember there was one game they tried before the playoffs came and I was coming off the bench for that team and we were in San Antonio and I guess they wanted to start me on Kawhi that night. So we were at team breakfast and that team breakfast after team breakfast, the team normally watches film. So we're going through it. And coach Kerr even actually tells a story when he comes on my podcast, cause I forgot about it, but the twins are in there, we're eating and they're eating their pancakes and everything. And we start watching film and coach Kerr goes tonight,

Matt, you got Kawhi, you're starting. And you know, I'm 15 years in. All right, coach, I'm ready. The fucking twins lost their mind. Like they put their forks down, jump up and down, smiling like, you know, daddy had won a championship already. So,

You know, that was one of those times when you say to the kids, that was the best part of my career was the last three or four years that the twins were around everything. They were in the locker room with Kobe. They were in the locker room with Chris Paul and Blake Griffin and that Lob City team. They were in the locker room with Steph, KD and Clay. I remember we're in the, was it Western Finals or second round of the Western Finals against San Antonio.

And we had just clinched, I think, the Western Finals. And I got out of the shower and I'm looking for the twins and they're over in Clay Thompson's locker and Clay is teaching them how to make paper airplanes. And I'm just like, these kids don't know how fucking lucky they are, man. They're sitting here with one of the greatest shooters of all time and Clay is folding paper airplanes out of the box scores and they're throwing paper airplanes all over the locker room. I'm like, yeah, these kids don't know how good they got it. You talked about playing for the Warriors. Yes.

one of the best organizations in the NBA. How important is the quality of the organization in terms of contributing to being a winning organization? It's everything because I got to see two sides of it. When I went to the Warriors the first time, you know, I wouldn't, I don't want to say bad if you're an owner, but just not very good owners. And they didn't, they paid the wrong people and ran through coaches and always would sign the wrong free agents.

And then I go back 10 years later, right before I retire and it's a new ownership group. And Pierre Goober and Jacob Blackham. When I tell you at Lakeham, everything was taken care of. Like when I tell you all they wanted you to do is focus on basketball. Like they took care of your ticket requests, no matter how many tickets you need, they'll take care of it. Um, food, um,

All the treatment, like anything you can ever imagine. Like when they think that when people think professional athletes and luxury, like some of it is not like when I first played for the Clippers, like we practiced at Southwest College out here and we had to keep the back doors open so people didn't rob our cars. Like when I first played with the Clippers with Donald Sterling, it was trash.

But fast forward back to Uber and these guys, like they just took care of everything. Even when it came to the playoffs, they chartered a whole entire private plane for our families and took care of their hotels and flights and all this. And it was just like, it was such an amazing energy. Like that warrior team, it was fun to go in on off days. Our entire team would be in there. I'd be on off day or,

I'd have off days with other teams where no one would show up, not even me. You know what I mean? Like, but with this Golden State team, they really caught lightning in a bottle for those three or four years where it was just you wanted to be around the team. The energy was great. Yeah.

They laid out the ultimate red carpet for you. But to answer your question, it all starts at the top. If you have if you have faulty leadership, you won't go anywhere because I think it trickles down. And, you know, especially being in business, you know, you're only as strong as you're, you know, your weakest piece. But I really think it starts at the top. And these guys just did absolutely everything to make sure that all we had to do was focus on basketball. Well, let's go down one level now.

How important is a coach actually contributes to your success? It's important. And I think there's different levels to it because I've had guys that have been very hands on, like a Stan Van Gundy, super huge X and O's guys. And whenever he talks, he starts foaming out of his mouth with the white shit and you have to kind of do this. But he's really hands on. He wants to call every single play every single time.

And I've had guys like Phil Jackson that kind of sit back and let shit go. You know what I mean? If you're on the court, he trusts you. He's implemented his system and he'll do his whistle if he needs to get your attention. Let's go to December 10th, 1995. You're playing the Pistons. You're with the Grizzlies. My Pistons. 1.1 seconds to go and you drain, swish a three-pointer, half court, 47 feet away. Was that the highlight of your career?

No, it was probably the wildest. So it was actually, so I shot, I want to say, I shot the ball with like three or four seconds left. And after I hit it, there was 1.1. So actually, I technically shot the ball too early. But the funny part was, looking back, I didn't know because I was, you know, I grabbed the rebound and our coaches are like screaming, call timeout. But I just took off dribbling. I didn't hear him. I didn't care to hear him. I was just ready to get out of Detroit. And, you know, I went in and I saw these guys kind of collapsing on me.

So I pulled up from half court, ended up draining it, and then look at the clock, you know, after the team calls timeout, I'm like, oh, shit, there's still like 1.1 seconds. Like, I shot the ball too early, but it was a cool moment, you know what I mean, to be able to, you know, obviously anytime you hit a buzzer beater to win a game is dope. But, you know, my buzzer beater was a little bit too early. One of the most...

notorious and worst moments i think in the history of professional sports was something called the mouse at the palace of auburn hills crazy so during that event that was your home to ask you city town yeah my hometown the pacers were playing the pistons yes and fans were getting all over some guys that brought our cast was there and run our test went up in the fan went up in the stand i mean he's 12 rows deep and he started beating on a fan um crazy moment

uh matt is a great guy by the way i know he's a friend of yours he's a friend of mine you know he lost a salary a whole year's salary which is huge money then three million dollars today you see a lot of fan involvement and drawing the fans on the court you see it at football games people throwing beer uh you saw it at a football game this past weekend a detroit lion fan best team in go lions i'm a detroiter saying something to uh you know the green bay coach

How far is too far? Can people who are sitting courtside be trash-talking the players? And at what point does it get too much? I think it's that there's no line there anymore. And I'm all for fan interaction. I think it makes the game better. But I think last five, seven years, obviously the situation in the Palace was crazy. But I think people feel like, I'm paying all this money for this ticket. I can do whatever I want here. And obviously you add alcohol to that kind of mindset and you see...

unfortunate situations. Fans saying whatever. I mean, you could talk trash all day, but I think now it's personal shots and obviously they're recording when they say it. So if they get a reaction, they can go viral. So

I just, you know, I feel like athlete or excuse me, I feel like fans, some of this is not a blanket statement, but some fans look at us like they try to poke us like caged animals at the zoo. Like, let me see if I can say some wild shit to make him respond and I'll film him and I'll go viral. Let me throw something and see if I can hit him and I can tell this story to everybody. So it's a scary line because obviously you never want to see something like the malice in the palace. But, you know, with fans, you know,

are crazy these days. And I think, and a majority of fans are just good fans. And if you want to scream and yell and cuss at us, you know, as an away team coming into your home gym or home field, I love it. But when it starts getting personal and you're taking personal shots and saying just the most disrespectful stuff, and then when you're throwing stuff,

Hopefully, fingers crossed, it doesn't happen, but that's how people get hurt. You can say, hey man, you fucking suck, but you can't talk about your family. Family, kids, exes, all that kind of... You should have saw how much shit was talked after the Derek Fitcher situation initially. You know what I mean? So it's just like you gotta... There has to be some...

rhyme or reason to it. But I mean, what kind of rules do you implement if you're a, you know, if you're a owner of a team or if you're an owner of a stadium or an arena, like it's hard to kind of, where's the line to draw? So, I mean, you hope just, you know, the morals of a person would understand or the character of a person. But like you said, I mean, sporting events are supposed to be fun and you go and you add a little bit of alcohol to that and enhances the experience and you a little bit more braver than you normally are. And you say some wild shit. So,

Unfortunately, it kind of is what it is. I don't see a solution for it, to be honest with you. I know people who do get caught throwing stuff or, you know, doing some stuff, get banned or kicked out. But I had a couple of situations, you know, during my career where if I would have got my hands on someone that would have said something or threw something, it would have been a problem. So obviously you don't want to see that. You know, you want to come out and cheer for your team or cheer for your players and everyone make it home safely. But yeah,

That definitely is a problem. And to be honest with you, Rainey, I don't know how to fix it or if there's actually even a solution for it. Let's talk about money. And I'm going to go through some numbers here as well on the money. You made a little over $35 million over the course of your career. At the beginning, you made $300,000 to $500,000 in your first few seasons. Pre-tax, you blew a lot of that, you said, at the end of each summer. Mm-hmm.

The money today is crazy in the NBA. You got $76 billion new contract for the NBA over 11 years. The players get

By collective bargaining, 51% of all basketball revenues. So that's an increase this year to last year. And every season, 160% more revenues. We're going to see the first $100 million salaries by the 2032-2033 season. Luka Doncic is going to be the first salaried NBA billionaire. If you look back to your career...

22 years ago when you started, would you ever would have thought you're going to see players making $100 million a year in salary? No, no. But I, you know, I credit that to obviously David Stern's vision of being able to

individual players in a team sport. His goal was to always make this game global and if to do that he needed to ride the back of stars. And you know, Magic and Larry kind of started it and then MJ came and then Kobe came and Bron came and all the young great players today. And Adam Silver has done a great job of kind of continuing his vision to grow the game globally.

You see a huge European influx. You know, I think European players are one of the last four or five MVPs, if I'm not mistaken. I think it's beautiful. You know, I'm not one of those older guys like, oh, you know, fuck these younger kids. And like, I love it because partly because I have five sons, you know what I mean? So, or excuse me, six sons now.

You know, so hopefully one of them will catch lightning in a bottle and be able to kind of tap into that. But if you think, you know, I made a little bit, you know, $35 million, like guys are getting paid more than that in one year now. You know what I mean? Like you said, in the next five years, the guys are going to be making $100 million a year, which is insane. But I just think it shows the growth of the game. And, you know, it's really a global sport now. And the odds to make it are crazy. You know, I just...

I feel like we live in, you know, obviously this social media driven era where negativity unfortunately outweighs the positivity, but you just hear so much negativity about professional athletes that, but if you,

understood how hard it was to, especially basketball, like every, literally every kid in the world now dreams to play in the NBA. And, you know, you gave some statistics earlier, but it's just like, you're, you're better off getting struck by lightning than, than, than making it in the NBA. So, you know, my hat's off to all these guys that play this game and, and who continue to grow the game.

Would I like to see a little bit more defense? Absolutely. But, you know, these guys are super skilled and super talented, and the money is reflecting that. I think people have a tremendous misconception of what comes down to the bottom line of an NBA player. Jason Tatum just signed the biggest deal in NBA history five years ago.

$315 million contract, $62.8 million a year. So let's go through what comes out of that. You've got $23.2 million in federal taxes. You've got $4.7 million in a jock tax. That's you got extra tax for the privilege of being a professional athlete. You've got $8.1 million escrow and agent fees. You've got $1.4 million in FICA and Medicare deductions.

your take home of that $63.8 million is $25.2 million. The players get

40% of the contract value. It's insane. And people don't understand that. And I think it's dropped a little bit. It used to be half. They say we used to get half, but any number you see, you chop it in half. And then now it's chopping in half and take 10 more percent. It's crazy, especially living in California too. California, it's nasty out here with tax. But yeah,

It just is what it is. It's crazy. But also, I don't, you know, there was a stigma, not necessarily a stigma, but, you know, guys back before me and even guys I played with, like going broke was a big thing with professional athletes. But I think financial literacy is a huge part of professional sports now. And it's almost cool to be aware and invest in what are you in? Like when I was in the league and there, you know, when I came in the early 2000s, we were talking about

women, cars, rims, and jewelry. You know, with that Golden State team, by the time I was leaving, they were talking about Silicon Valley and investments and opportunity and who's coming to the game tonight and what fund is going to be there. I'm like,

holy shit, I wish this would have started a little bit earlier. You know what I mean? Like to be financially aware is really cool now, which I think is great because these kids are making a ton of money and a ton of opportunity and understanding that, you know, they're, they're, they're their own business. They're a walking business every day. So, you know, we, you know, you're, you're one of your producers asked about NILs and all this kind of stuff. Like these kids are getting crazy money starting at a very early age now. So I'm glad that there's some, there's some, um,

There's some guidance and some education coming with that because it's a ton of money. Let's talk about female...

WNBA basketball players. Caitlin Clark has completely changed the nature and popularity of women's basketball. The NCAA women's finals last year, 18.9 million viewers. Men's final, 14.3 million viewers. It was the most watched finals of any men or women's game, professional game, since 2019. Wow. I love it.

I think it's great. The growth of the women's game has been huge. And it's, you know, there's a handful of women, but I think Kaitlyn Clark is leading the charge. They said she was responsible for like 32% of the revenue boost in the women's game this year, which is incredible. Very humble, very hardworking girl who took a lot of shit at the beginning of the season. I think there's a lot of jealousy. I'm just going to say. People say what they want. No, it's not this. You can see it. You don't have to say stuff sometimes. You can see it.

And I remember I made a comment. She was just getting beat up. And it just disgusted me that her teammates didn't have her back because I was one of those guys. You touch Kobe, you touch CP, you touch like I'm on your head. You know what I mean? And the fact that this girl night in, night out was getting beat up and her teammates weren't even helping her off the court. Like they were just kind of and I'm just and I made a comment. It went super viral. This guy said it got almost over a billion impressions.

that how do you not have your teammates back? You know, how do you not? And, you know, I think as the season wore along, they kind of started, you know, having her back more. And then she started coming into her own. You know, you hear all these, oh, she can't do this on this level. This is a whole different level. This girl is special. She can shoot the ball like Steph. She can pass the ball. And she's a competitor. And she really just came out. I think she won an award the other day and she came out and said, you know, that

All this is coming off the backs of black women in this sport. I don't remember the exact quote. I don't want to butcher the quote. You can look it up. But

She pays homage to who deserves to be paid homage. I think she does everything right. And that alone will bother people. You know what I mean? They want to kind of try to find a flaw in somebody. And I think Kaylin Clark has been a huge, huge instrumental key to just shining a light on a game that needed more light shined on it. You know, these girls are extremely talented, but I think they get knocked because they're not athletic. But I would argue that

Some of these women are more skilled than the men because we get away with athleticism and strength in our game. These women don't get it. These women have to be skilled to be able to, you know, succeed in their game. So, you know, my hat's off to not only Caitlin, but this entire league. I think it's beautiful. It gives my daughter something to aspire to. You know, she's a basketball player and it just gives hope to a lot of young girls now that, you know, that professional sports and particularly basketball is an option. And, you know, if they're fortunate enough.

A lot of controversy. Should she be on the U.S. Olympic team? I think people were just waiting to destroy her if she opened her mouth on them. I think we all wanted to see her on the team because we all wanted to see her play. I think all the fans wanted to see her play. She's not one of the best 12 players in the U.S. That's a lie. They asked her, and she said...

Whatever they decide, they decide basically I don't deserve to be there. I'll get my chance in four years. Class act. And again, that the fact that and I hope for no blunders at all, but she just handled everything so well, you know, whether that's her or her PR team or just being raised the right way.

She answered every question the right way. She didn't give Nadia, but nobody, no click bait or a reason to hate on her. Like she just, she was a humble star in the making. And I definitely think they made a mistake not putting her on the team because she's much watched. And then she just brings so many eyeballs to the sport. And it was just,

You know, you see, you see, there was a lot of jealousy from women, whether they be Hall of Famers that are still playing or vets or even young people. And it's just like, you know, they wanted to kind of show what the deal was. But she showed through hard work and dedication and being a good person, man, that

you know, that she is and she's gotten all the credit that she deserves. I mean, that's not to say that, you know, I'm a big fan of Angel Reese too. And the lane she's been able to carve out for herself. And then like the Asia Wilsons and the women that have been carrying this league for years.

I just think that people needed to understand that, you know, Kaitlyn was the vehicle that brought more eyeballs. You know what I mean? Like, because of her, you know, things will change in this game, you know, and you hear changes like, you know, private planes for some teams now, and she's selling out arenas wherever she goes. So, I mean, I'm all for the growth. You know, the NBA has gone through, you know, extreme growth over the, you know, the last 30-plus years, and the fact that I think the WNBA is coming into their 28th or 29th year, and, you know, they have...

Pretty much a new logo. You know what I mean? She is the face of the league. I'm not saying she's the best player. I think one day she could possibly be the best player, but she's definitely probably the face of the league and one of the most popular athletes in the world. And, you know, I'm just happy for her and the rest of these women that they're starting to get the eyeballs and attention. And at the end of the day, that's going to drive up revenue. $338,000 over four years, $78,000 per year. The average salary in WNBA is $147,000. Yeah, that's crazy. Average in the...

NBA, $14.3 million this year. Are we ever going to see salaries? I'm not saying it this way. This is a bad thing to say. Back in the day, we'd say, he's a scrub, right? But average players making $14.3 million a year today. Unbelievable. So are we ever going to see women's salaries get into the millions of dollars a year? I think millions...

I think low millions. I think so. I think the game has continued to grow. And, you know, you just have to you have to get more eyeballs on the game. And I think that's what they're starting to do. I think they're, you know, the more sponsors are interested in these women now. And I do think that the salaries will grow. I don't think we'll ever see. And I hope I would love to be proved wrong, but I don't ever see us getting, I don't think,

straight basketball. I don't think they'll ever be like a $10 million a year salary in the WNBA, but I can definitely see it getting to, you know, three, four, possibly 5 million a year. And again, I hope I'm wrong, but the 10 thing, I hope these women continue to climb the ladder and make as much money as you possibly can. But I just think, you know, they're definitely on the right track. Now, if you look back,

in year 28 of the NBA where they were, and year 28 of the WNBA where they were, there's a lot of similarities. And, you know, you see how much this game has grown in the last 30 years. And again, I think Kaitlin Clark and Andrew Reese and this young crew that have come are going to spark the minds of a lot of young women around the world, and they're going to continue to grow the game. You've talked about life after basketball. Tell us about your meeting with

Brian Daly and that aspect of your career and how basically you didn't think it was going to happen. Something just kind of came. I didn't know what was going to happen. You know, when I first retired, I was a huge cannabis advocate. So I was flying back and forth to New York to talk to the NBA and the Players Association about just studying the plant more and understanding the benefits from the plant.

Lo and behold, in 2020, they finally started, they finally stopped testing. So I like to say that, you know, maybe my visits did pay off a little bit. But then I didn't really know what I really wanted to do. I made a few small investments that were, you know, that were kind of starting to turn. But I knew that I wanted to do something. Someone nudged me into getting into media. You know, you're always so well spoken in your interviews. You should try doing sports media.

Yeah, I think back when I played, there was a line in the saying like, we didn't really fuck with, excuse my language, we didn't really mess with the media because we didn't have a rebuttal to whatever they would change. You know, they could take our words and do whatever with it. And what they said was it, you know, fast forward, social media is in the play now and

So I just wasn't really quick to jump in the media space. But, you know, someone was really persistent and pushed me into doing it. And once I did it, it opened up my eyes and really changed my life. It changed my post-career trajectory. You know, I did a little bit of Fox. I was with ESPN for almost three and a half, four years. Learned a lot about the business of media. And so Brian Daly comes into my life in 2000. I retired in 2017.

I meet Brian Daly and it was random because, again, I was doing ESPN at the time and, you

I did a documentary for Showtime. I was speaking for DeMarcus Cousins documentary and the producer after he's like, hey, I heard you want to start a podcast. I'm like, how did you hear that? But yeah, I do. He's like, you need to meet with my friend Brian Daly over at Showtime. I'm like, like Showtime, like the network. They're like, yeah, they just started a digital component called Showtime Basketball.

I think you'd be a great fit. I'm like, well, shit, I'm all for it. So he connects the dots. He flies out out here. We meet at the Lowe's hotels in Santa Monica. We took two or three shots of tequila. I pitched them a man cave barbershop conversation with cameras on it. And I had to smoke. I wanted to be able to smoke. I want to be the first athlete on TV, like really smoking. And he was all for it.

And next thing you know, we're shooting a pilot and we're off to the races. So at the time, we really didn't know what we had. All the podcasts weren't new at the time, but sports podcasts were fairly new at the time. I want to say like we were the second one to maybe kind of jump into space. And, you know, I always show love to the knuckleheads because I think they were a little bit before us. But yeah.

I really feel like we came in this space and kicked open and started a whole new wave of sports media, not just basketball, but sports media. Like when I came in to the podcast space, you could probably count in the whole entire world. You could probably count the sports podcast on your hand on one hand. There may have been two, three, four, five at the most. And if you look at it now, who doesn't have a podcast in the sports space? You know what I mean? So we were one of the originators. You know, they like to call us the OGs of the space. But I just love the fact that

We're here again because and people say, you know, the space is watered down, but I don't necessarily look at it as being watered down because I feel like every player in this space has their own unique journey, their own unique story and their own unique way of telling it. And if I'm a fan, although I love the Stephen A and shout out to Stephen, I think it's about to get a record breaking hundred and twenty million dollars. That's my guy. Let me let me borrow some. But.

you know, I'll take some of that. Right. Seriously. Like as much as I love these guys, like they didn't play it at this level, you know? So if I'm a fan, I'm thinking like, I want to hear it from a guy that actually did it. No, although there's a place for these guys that didn't, and then that are well-spoken and versed in the subject, but yeah,

if I'm a down hard, hardcore fan, I love the fact that I can listen to me and stack. I can listen to Draymond. I can listen to Paul, uh, George. I can listen to Paul Pierce and Kevin Garnett. I can listen to Pat Bev and the, and the list goes on of JJ Redick was great before he, you know, jumped on and took the Lakers coaching job. So you're just getting a unique perspective. You're, you're, you're allowing the players to create our own narratives and we're giving opportunities to all our brothers and sisters to tell their own stories. So, um,

We were able to turn All the Smoke podcast, our first year award-winning podcast. Four years after that, we were able to turn it into a whole company. So we launched All the Smoke Productions in January 1 of 2024 and signed a nice, healthy deal with DraftKings. And we've been on the move since. So we've created about four or five shows. I have a slate of shows.

Former NBA stars. We've gone vertical in the NFL space. We just launched our boxing space with Andre Ward and Roy Jones. So they're heading that side. We're going to get into golf in 2025. So we've just, you know, we want to be in the next three to five years, one of the most authentic, real brands that are telling these stories. And I think we're off to a great start.

But yeah, really, it all started with, you know, obviously me jumping into sports media with ESPN and Fox. But, you know, Brian Daly taking a chance on me. And, you know, when Paramount came in about a year and a half ago, they were coming in and you're hearing, oh, they're going to, you know, they're going to take over Showtime. But we're not really sure. So we're thinking like, damn, we started something good. Are we going to be done? So when you kind of start hearing the uncertainty, I'm like, well, no, I'm going to start my own company. And regardless, we're going to be straight. So I started Paramount.

Well, myself and Jelani McCoy, all the Smoke Productions. And then when Showtime went under, I got Brian Daly, the guy that gave me the opportunity to come and be the third co-founder with us. And we launched all the Smoke Productions. What's your advice to everybody?

Who wants to want to take a chance on that? What should they be doing? You got to take a chance on yourself first. You got to believe in yourself, particularly if we're talking this pod in multimedia space. I mean, there's a ton of talking heads now. There's any subject you can find a podcast on it now. But to me, I don't think it's it's it's oversaturated because if you can talk and you have a unique story, they're going to you know, your voice will be heard. So yeah.

Prepare for this. You know, this is a real people think, oh, a podcast, like podcast, you know, podcasts are work. You've got to do a lot of research. You've got to get a building. You've got to have all kinds of different cameras. You've got to have great producers. But again, I was someone who learned the front and back side. I learned this side of it and I learned your side of it. But I also learned the business side of it and understanding what our worth was and being

Being able to be the first one to got I got our podcast paid for the digital and audio that hadn't been done in the space before. So I got an iHeart deal and a Showtime deal to double up our revenue. So there's just, you know, being a student of the game, you know, humbling yourself and understanding, man, you've got to put the work in in this space if you want to make it. Back in the 80s, 40% of NBA players were doing cocaine. Cool.

And the statistics say as high as 70% were doing cocaine, according to the Washington Post. Are drugs still a problem in the NBA? No.

And that's not to say some of these recreational drugs that aren't allowed in the game aren't happening because we don't know what everyone does with their own time. But I just know, again, I was an advocate for this plant. You know, obviously, I always tip my hat to Ricky Williams because I think he was before his time. You know, he pretty much lost his career with the Miami Dolphins for kind of standing up for cannabis and the benefits of it.

But I just think this plan is tremendous. And again, there's several different ways to to to to to use it. I think, you know, this plan has something for our children all the way to our grandparents. And I love that the professional sports league, if I'm not mistaken, none of the three major sports in the in in.

the United States test for anymore. Football, baseball and basketball, I think it's not a banned substance anymore. So I just think it's a great alternative because we all know that the biggest epidemic we have is the opioid epidemic.

And I'm firsthand can tell you that. And I didn't even play football. Football guys said that it was worse than what we have, but they will give you absolutely anything to get you back on that court. Whether it be tour at all, bike it in anything you can imagine. Oxycontin, the voucher, the, the, the, the Viatrex that they used to tear it. Like they will give you anything to get you back out there. But then at the same time, if you smoke weed back when I was playing, you risked your career, you risked to find, you risk being suspended. So,

I think the game has come a long way in that space. I would say now from that 80 statistics, I'd probably say like, yeah, 75, 80% of guys do use it now. It was really high when I was playing, but it was kind of like an unspoken word. Like you kind of just knew who smoked on each team. And if you would kick it with them, you guys would rally up. But it was kind of like you really had to,

be prepared because you get four random drug tests. So, you know, me and you go out tonight after a game and we go grab dinner. And then after we go back to the room and smoke a joint, we could get tested the next morning and be like, oh shit. So it was a, it was a full-time job. I used to have to keep a drink from GNC on me that would flush my system. And,

I would pay my trainers at the beginning of the season, like, you know, tell me if I'm, if I'm going to be up. So the, the, the drug program got hip to that. So they wouldn't give us the players and they wouldn't give the players names. So they would just say, Hey, like, Hey, you know, we're coming to test your team today. So I had to prepare every time, every time the drug people came to our team, I had to prepare like I was being tested. So it was a whole process of,

down in this drink that made you want to throw up and then drinking a bunch of water and then you'd pee a bunch of times and then for like six hours you had a window of clean pee and that got me through my entire career we talked about kobe did the last interview before he passed on your show who are your favorite podcast guests top three kobe snoop who else had me rolling probably jamie fox he just had a new netflix special shout out what had happened was uh

You know, obviously Kobe for several different reasons and the fact that it was supposed to be a two part show. The first part we shot with him was like 40 minutes. So we were supposed to actually do a part two. And, you know, obviously his untimely death, we weren't able to do that. So that's something I always hold near and dear to my heart. Snoop was the one that kicked the door open. So although I told Brian Daly at the beginning, we have to be able to smoke. He said it was cool. But Showtime, you know, Showtime legal said, get out of here like you guys aren't smoking. So we couldn't smoke on our show for the longest time.

until Snoop came and smoked like eight blunts on our show. And we're like, fuck it. If Snoop's doing it, we're going to do it. And we, that was the first time we smoked on camera and we haven't looked back since. So Snoop kind of opened the door, shout out. He opened the door for us to be able to smoke on the show. And then we caught Jamie Foxx during the pandemic. And I think that's where all the smoke really took off. We started showing, uh, you know, Aaron two shows a week when everyone was looking for content and we got Jamie on a remote interview, but, uh,

He just had us laughing the entire time. So those are three that come to mind quickly. But if I think back to more, you know,

I just feel in this space I'm so lucky because I'm a fan of almost all the people on the show and I just get an in-depth look at their lives more than I would. And that's what I was so proud about the Kobe interview is because I knew the world got to know fans knew Black Mamba. They didn't really get to know Kobe, the dad, the businessman, the locker room teammate.

And I always, you know, we pride ourselves on humanizing our guests and being able to show our fans the side that they don't always get to see. So, you know, I'm so lucky that I get to sit here and interview people and get paid good money for it and just get to learn more about interesting people. That's one of the benefits of my show as well. I mean, I get to meet amazing people. Absolutely. Like, you get to know you better and be able to get to know Mike Tyson and Kiki Tyson and some of these other people. Mark Cuban has been amazing.

I'm going to flip it on you. What would have been your favorite interviews? Because I know I saw your list is pretty cool too. Yeah. I mean, you asked me, right? When I met you for the first time and I said, it's like trying to pick your favorite among your kids. Yeah. Right. And when I say to people is I have...

Different people from all walks of life. So I've got the corporate guys the big CEO of Goldman Sachs I got the private equity guys David Rubenstein. I've got venture capitalists like Tim Draper. I have athletes on my show actors I have the world's greatest bowler. I had the number one and number two male number one male and female pickleball players on my show and it's I don't have a favorite and what's interesting to me Matt is some of what I think are my worst shows are

That I really didn't like at all. When I asked people, oh, that was my favorite show that you did. And I'm not going to mention one in particular, but I was just...

knocking my head against the wall like this is the most boring show in the world this guy is it just has no personality in the world and i'm just trying to get him to laugh and i've got people who love that show and i thought i did a terrible job and i thought he was terrible so it's it's you never know but you know i have a wish list too i'm sure you know you have one too um who are some of the people you hope to get like i want to get um

Elon Musk would be my number one. The other rock would be way up there. I mean, Tom Brady is up there, obviously, as well. Yeah, that's fine. Steph Curry is on the list as well. Yeah.

You know, my list is very long. I have people in the medical field, Huberman in the field, Jordan Peterson. Tony Robbins is top five for me. I like him. And I will nail him this year. I've got a list. I'm very motivated. The hit list, the 2025 hit list. I've got the 2025 hit list. We're getting near the end of the show. I want to talk about some of the things that make us successful. One of the things that's contributed most to my success is something called extreme preparation.

Where someone may prepare for a podcast one hour. I'm 14 on average for my show. Wow. How has extreme preparation contributed to your success? And can you give some examples? I mean, I thought you did great today. I mean, you were probably one of the most prepared people that I've sat down with. Yeah.

For you to know from birth to current Matt Barnes like that. And I'm sure you're like this with all your guests, man. It's very impressive and it's appreciated because, again, you've asked me questions that I haven't been asked before. So I always appreciate that.

readiness and people that really put the work in. Preparation, I think, eliminates fear. You know, when you put the work in, I feel like you could take on anything. And I think that the discipline I learned as an athlete has transitioned to so many different walks of life, but particularly life after basketball. I think, and that was one thing Kobe and I talked about too, is just like, you know, we take the discipline to get up at

five in the morning and jump on the tracker, get in the right room. And now we get up at five and we're jumping on emails and making sure we, you know, we reach back out to people and, you know, stay on top of that. So I've been able to take the discipline that took me to the top of one professional space and applied it to this next space, which is, which is media. And for me to be the, the bad guy, the NBA or the role player, the journeyman to be one of the most

being trusted in top voices in sports media. I don't, I don't take that for granted, but I, I, I owe that to preparation and dedication and really just trying to apply myself and, and, and challenge myself. You know, I want to be, you know, one of the best in this space. I don't have to be the best, but I just want to be one of the best. And I think more important is being one of the trusted, you know, to be able to have a wide range of,

Voices from Kobe to Kamala Harris to Rock is on my hit list too. I just think the range of people we had speaks to, you know, how well we've done and how we've continued to elevate and grow our show in a very saturated market. So preparation is key to life, to being a father, to business, to being an athlete. I mean,

The last thing you want to do is is to be underprepared. And that shows when you are underprepared, but it also shows when you're prepared. So it's not something I take lightly. It's something I'm saying. I'm not going to lie. I'll give you 14 hours, but I definitely will put the work in to help create the rundowns and change what I don't like and add stuff that I do like and really make sure that I'm prepared for each and every interview we sit down and do.

One of the things that I think makes us successful and really a lot of people don't talk about is one of the challenges that you have gone through in your life. You had an incident with...

Derek Fisher. That was very unpleasant. It's highly publicized, so I'm going to talk about it. I'm not the first one where he was dating your ex-wife and you didn't know about it. He was a former teammate. You drove 90 minutes to go see him. Kanye West made that an urban legend, but go ahead. I'll tell you the real thing. Okay, then you drive 90 minutes. You're going to correct me on that. And you go, there's a barbecue in the backyard. You go beat the shit out of him, basically. And here you are years later.

where he is a second father to your kid and a coach. So my question to you is how important is letting bygones be bygones and having forgiveness in our success and our mental health? Huge, huge growth. I mean, you know, hate is a heavy burden to carry for anybody. It's an added weight. It's an added stress that's not needed. But forgiveness, I don't hate anybody. You know, I think we're all here for a small amount of time and then trying to figure it out the best way we can.

you know, the Derek situation was unfortunate. You know, I only drove 15 minutes, a Kanye rap that I drove 90 minutes and 90 miles and turned it into an urban legend. But, you know, what I'm very proud to say is, you know, that incident happened at the beginning of one season. And by the following summer, it was water under the bridge. You know what I mean? And I think the key to that was, you know, I'm always my most important. I didn't like the fact that he dated my ex-wife and

But I was willing to forget that. But the fact that he was around my kids and didn't tell me was what really bothered me. So, you know, when that first happened, I'm always, you know, I'm talking, how's everything and everything's good. And, you know, and it got to a point where, you know, the boys was like, like, how do you feel about Derek? She's like, Dad, we love Derek. He's great. And I was just like, amazing. And that's all I needed to hear to, you know, go and squash the beef. You know what I mean? Because it wasn't about how him and my ex-wife are now married and it

It was never about that. It was about my kids and them being the priority and the pride and joy. They were my only two kids at the time. So the fact that my boys loved them, it gave me to me a path to go mend the bridge. And, you know, I was the first one to kind of reach out to him. And, you know, we both set our pieces and shook hands and

You know, people know that's we're going on 10 years now since that happened. And it's still talked about like it happened yesterday. But he is my kid's stepfather. He's their head high school basketball coach. I coached him in the summer and he's one of their dads. And, you know, I was so real when we squashed the beef. I was still playing. I'm just like, bro, you see my kids more than I do. Like you have to be that guiding light, that father figure, teach them discipline, manners, morals, everything.

Um, and it's going to take a village to raise these boys. And it's, you know, your job and my ex-wife's job and my job at the time I was single. And now I have a fiance to, to kind of raise these and, and, and, and be productive, good young men in this world. And, you know, I, that is, to be honest with you, that's probably one of the proudest things that I think I've accomplished was to be able to turn that into a

good situation because people died over shit like that for less, you know what I mean? So for us to be able to have the issue we had to be able to squash it and to him to be such an integral part of my kid's life and him treat them so well that they love him now. And I have no issue with that. I encourage it. Um, I just say, especially for me, because like I said, I was, I was the one that was ready to go at all times, you know what I mean? But for me to kind of

and understand the bigger picture and it was always for my kids and the kids saying that they love him and they like him kind of gave me the okay to, okay, as long as he's good to my kids, I'm good with him. As parents, the only thing we care about really is the...

emotional, which is not often talked about as much as it should be, and physical well-being of our kids. And anybody who does anything nice for our kids is something that we appreciate as parents. Absolutely. And I feel like there's nothing better than you can do as a favor to a friend of making...

some cool special moments for your kids. Because you remember them for so long. I remember the first autograph I got from a professional athlete was a Juwan Howard. I think I was 16. I went to a Kings game, and he was nice enough to pick me out of the crowd. So I just think these small dresses, and I think I mentioned it earlier in this, all these people sitting around the court

You know, I mean, I'm their kids. If they're kids, I'm, you know, I'm messing with them and letting them come rebound for me or let them take a shot. And it's just this is stuff that they're going to remember for the rest of life. And you never know how small that small gesture could come full circle, you know, at an unexpected time. We see nepotism in the real world.

All the time. At our companies, there's no such thing as nepotism. It's a complete meritocracy. Is Bronny really the product of nepotism after throwing down 4.1 points a game in an unremarkable single season at USC where there were five players at least on the team better than he is? If he is, I'm okay with it.

Because we live in a world filled with it. And if anyone deserves to have that kind of carpet rolled out for their kids, it's LeBron. What he's been able to pour into this game the last 20 years to be a star who over exceeded the hype, to be a high school sensation and still be

Again, knock on wood. I hope there is no slip up. You know, how do you with the face of a league for so long and there is there there's no bad dirt on him like he's always done things above board the right way. He's looked out for his friends. He's done everything given this game. Everything is leading score top five and assist. He's just been so great to this game.

I love the fact that he has given it. But what I will say is he's given his son this opportunity. But I think his son knows that, you know, daddy's not going to be around for too much longer. You know what I mean? So he's going to have to put that work in. And I think he will to be able to be a night in, night out guy. I think people are looking at it wrong. If you think Bronny is going to be the next coming LeBron, he's not. I think Bronny can be a very solid guy.

and have a good long career being a solid role player. He's got a high basketball IQ, he shoots the ball, he plays defense, he plays hard. He can find a space in this league, but he's going to have to work his butt off. But if it is nepotism, I love it because we've always seen it at all different levels. You know, we see owners handing the teams down to their kids all the time and other opportunities in business that happen, but you never had the chance to see it in

the NBA. And we got a chance to see it in the NBA. And as a father, I love it. I was playing, I started

playing pickup basketball game maybe two summers ago and I started having my twins play with grown men because I wanted them to get prepared for high school and I remember there was one day just this past summer where we were on the court and the twins were with me we were kicking everybody's ass and I just imagined like this is so dope and I'm playing in a small pickup gym in Chatsworth I couldn't imagine doing this on the biggest level and it just really made my admiration grow for what Bron was able to do and have a chance to play with his son.

So tell us about the documentary about Tupac that you co-produced and tell us about the poem, The Rose That Grew From Concrete, and why that made you so emotional. Man, Tupac is just one of those, I wish I got him on my hand here, he's one of my favorite people. I'm a huge Tupac fan and just the ups and downs, the trials and tribulations he had been through, you know, with the way he was raised and what he stood for.

I feel like the world would be different if he was still here. I think he was that powerful. I think he was a leader of men and women. He was before his time. And he made great music. I think Tupac made a, he had a song for every human emotion we have. I mean, he can have you ready to shoot somebody, ready to fight someone, but he also has you, you know, caring for single mothers and your mom and, again, everything in between that. So he was just so, his range was crazy.

Not to mention a great actor. I think he would have been a star in Hollywood had he had more time. So I just think he was a well-rounded black man that I looked up to and a lot of people looked up to. And again, obviously, I think caught up in this L.A. street gang life, which is absolutely no joke. If you're not in it, stay out of it. If you're in it, try to get out of it. It's it's you know, it's taken too many people. But yeah.

But I think he got caught up in the L.A. street life and the L.A. street politics. And, you know, he was taken from us too soon. So great man. Wish he was still here. Got a chance to work with his or his wife.

estate, uh, and a couple of projects, uh, that I've done and, you know, made friends with the people, Tom Wally and, and, and the whole crew that runs that shout out, you know, to them, uh, you know, they're great. And, uh, yeah, I'll just always be a fan of Tupac. Talk to us about the poem, the rose that grew. Yeah. I mean, it's just, it's, you know, you never think that, you know, a rose can grow through concrete. And I think it's just a, uh,

metaphor for kids that grow, you know, to able to flourish through a lot of bullshit. And I was someone who was able to flourish through violence, drugs, abuse, poverty, and make it. And I think that's a, you know, a symbol of, you know, roses are supposed to grow in dirt and be watered and then have the right amount of sun. And, you know, for a rose to grow through concrete, you know, it means you were, you know, you were meant to be here. And, you know, again, Tupac had,

you know sayings and poems and songs for every emotion you're a great dad we've talked about our families before we've had several conversations lots of texts about our kids you're you've called your family the black brady bunch yeah you've got athletes in your family and what's interesting you've got two twins who want to play pro basketball and you've got another son who wants to play football and wants to buy you a bunch of lamborghinis if he makes it yes aston so

How good are your kids and are they going to make it? And what's your advice to parents who push their kids and really shouldn't be doing it? I wasn't one who pushed my kids at all. You know, I don't think I think today that everything is so sports specific and you're in one lane and you have to make it. And if you don't train in that sport, you get behind. I was someone, as you said, I played all four sports growing up. And I think every sport contributed to the one I was blessed to be able to play professionally.

So I never pushed my kids. You know, the twins, they were around the game a lot. So they had a good high IQ. They could shoot the ball, but they didn't want to. They're six. They just turned 16 about two weeks ago, three weeks ago. They didn't start working out until they're almost 13 years old because that's not they didn't want to. And I wasn't going to. You better go. And I started coaching them when they were about eight years old. And I'd have parents tell me, oh, yeah, my kid works out six days a week. I'm like, that's more than I worked out as a professional. Like you're making this you're making it a job too early. I

I think a lot of times parents try to vicariously live through their kids in sports and I just think it's nasty. This whole American sports system is crazy. It's year-round now, it's too many games, kids don't learn enough and I think that's why I said earlier, like you see this European influx and these European players coming over to have a success because we live in a country where a kid will play six basketball games, three on Saturday, three on Sunday.

Overseas, these kids will practice five days a week and play one game on the weekend. So these kids really understand the game coming over here. Our kids are very talented and skilled, but they lack IQ and an understanding of the game. So I just feel like, you know, the system is crazy. To get to your point, will my kids make it? I hope so. If that's what they want to do, regardless, I'm going to be supportive. But it takes a lot of hard work. And now that they are...

They, you know, they had the dedication and the drive to want to do it. I'm putting them in position, you know, not only do I work with them, but I find them, you know, the best trainers around to, you know, help hopefully fulfill their dreams. And it's dope because although my dad was there, he wasn't there. Like I never played catch with my dad or shot hoops with my dad when I was little. So that shit didn't exist for me. So.

every opportunity I get now, I'm with them. I'll take them to train. I'll watch them train. I'll train them. You know, the little Ashton, he just turned six. You know, if he wants to go out in, you know, in the side yard and shoot some hoops, I'll do it. You know, my stepkids all play sports. So I just want to really want to be a present father. I think, you know, fatherhood has been the greatest thing to ever happen to me. And I learned a lot of things not to do.

you know, from my childhood and I just tried to apply it and be the best father I possibly can to be present. You know, money is great, but time is more important. And, you know, again, not only teaching my kids how to be solid athletes, but be solid citizens and good people.

There's no better investment, I think, that we can make in ourselves than in our kids if you have kids. And someone told this to me before I had kids, and they said, you'll really understand the meaning of life once you have kids. And for all the people out there who are listening and watching the show who don't have kids, I'm telling you,

There's no truer statement than anyone has ever said to me in my life. I think not only life, but true love. You know, obviously you can love your spouse and then, but when you see your child being born and start to see them grow, like I've never experienced that type of love. Like I'm obviously in love with my fiance and we're going to get married. I love her to death. She puts up with my crazy ass, but yeah,

To have a child. I feel like you never know true love until you have a child. It's the best. Amazing. All right, we're at the end of our show now. I always finish my show with a game I call fill in the blank to excellence. Are you ready to play? Yes. The biggest lesson I've learned in my life is... Believe in myself. My number one personal goal is... Continue to be a great father. My number one professional goal is... To be the best...

production, multimedia agency in the game. My financial goal is... To be able to have my kids and grandkids comfortable when I leave. My biggest regret is... Not signing a prenup in my first marriage. I love that one. My biggest fear is... I don't have a biggest fear, to be honest with you. I think that God has prepared me for whatever...

It's on my way and I got to handle it the best of my abilities. The proudest moment of my career is? Proudest moment of my life is becoming a father. The craziest thing that happened in my career is? Man, a girl was in my closet when I got to Phoenix. In a hotel room? In a hotel room. She got in? She got in my room. She was in the closet. Was she naked? No, but she was attractive and I had to kick her out initially, but I ended up messing with her a couple months later. Oh.

I don't think I've ever told that story. The stalker becomes the dater. Yeah. All right. You have to put a disclaimer out there to all the women watching this show. Probably not a good idea. Man, oh yeah, that's bad business. The funniest thing that's happened in my career is... Oh, we were in Miami and I wasn't playing a lot and I got in at the end of the game and it was a blowout and I was pissed I was even in there.

And I went to close out on someone kind of half-assed and they shot fake. And the three-point line had jumped up and tripped me. And I fell into the stands. So I was pissed. I was embarrassed. My teammates were making fun of me. But now I look back and it was funny. The best advice I've ever received is...

Man, if you don't believe in yourself, who's going to believe in you? 10 years from now, I'm going to be doing? 10 years from now, I'm going to be coaching my kids and making great content. 20 years from now, I'm going to be doing? 20 years from now, I'm going to be on a big lake house, drinking lemonade, smoking joints, and watching my grandkids run around. If you could pick one trait that contributes to somebody's success, what would it be? Discipline.

If you could pick one trait that contributed to your success, what would it be? Belief. The one thing I've dreamed about doing for a long time but haven't is... Just continuing to win financially. I want to continue just to make a bunch of money. The best player currently in the NBA is... Jokic. The best player of all time is...

I'm going to leave it up to you guys. I throw LeBron, Michael Jordan, Kobe, however they land is up to you. If you could go back and give your 21-year-old self one piece of advice, what would it be? You can't take care of everybody. If you could meet one person in the world, who would it be? To be honest with you, I want to have a conversation with President Trump. My next question was going to be, if you were President Trump today...

What's the first thing you would do when you got into office? End racism. I don't even know if that's even possible. That's what I try to do. The one question you wish I'd asked you but didn't is? I think you did a great job today, man. You were prepared. You asked me everything.

Are there any questions that you want to ask me on my own show? That's a new thing I'm doing on the show here. I want to learn how to make as much money as you, so we don't have to talk about it now, but I need a mentor, man. Let me get under your wing and learn from you. I appreciate that. I love mentoring. I love coaching. You're an

amazing guy appreciate that i'm excited to play pickleball together yeah man we got to do that we got to do that i'm definitely excited i mean it's been a pleasure man for us to kind of meet through a mutual friend and and us to kind of hit it off the way we did without knowing each other at all before it's it's it's something i really value and definitely looking forward to learning some more from you yeah i'm looking forward to getting the families together too yeah let's do it appreciate you man thank you appreciate it