IFH 787: From Ultraviolent Wrestling to Transformative Filmmaking: The Story of Matthew T. Burns
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You are listening to the IFH Podcast Network. For more amazing filmmaking and screenwriting podcasts, just go to ifhpodcastnetwork.com. Welcome to the Indie Film Hustle Podcast, episode number 787. Cinema should make you forget you're sitting in a theater. Roman Polanski.

Broadcasting from the back alley in Hollywood, it's the Indie Film Hustle Podcast, where we show you how to survive and thrive as an indie filmmaker in the jungles of the film biz. And here's your host, Alex Ferrari. Welcome, welcome to another episode of the Indie Film Hustle Podcast. I am your humble host, Alex Ferrari. Today's show is sponsored by Rise of the Filmtrepreneur, how to turn your independent film into a profitable business.

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On this episode, we're going to talk to a guy I've been meaning to talk to for a very long time. He and I actually have bumped into each other many times, whether it be at a wrestling show while he's a wrestler and I was in the audience when I was into wrestling all those years ago, or even on social media where we just keep bumping back and forth into each other.

This man has wrestled all over the globe. He has wrestled some of the biggest legends in wrestling, and he has since retired and become a full-time filmmaker. And we're going to talk about all of that. And we're also going to talk about his new film, The Trade. All that good stuff on this episode with guest Matthew T. Burns. You know, you and I have actually met before. I don't think you probably remember, but it was at a CZW event. And I actually, one time, not only did I hand you a chair...

during a match. I forget who you were wrestling. I just remember handing you this chair. But we actually talked afterwards, after the show, and then Maymay and Pondo came up to talk to both of us.

Oh, man. I had no idea. I mean, you and I have talked. Do you remember the instance in which you handed me the chair? I'm trying to... I wonder if I'll recall this. Can you remember anything about that? You were leaning over the rope. You were in the ring, and you called for a chair, and I picked it up, and I gave it to you. It was already folded out. It wasn't folded up. It wasn't collapsed. So I handed it up, and you were in the main event. It was at Champs Soccer Arena in Sewell, New Jersey. Yeah.

and I can't remember who you were wrestling. I want to say maybe Rick Blade? That's funny to hear that, man. I can't quite remember that either.

Hey, man, we've got a history. Yeah, yeah, it's a small world. And that's why when I saw you were in film, I was like, you know what, it's a perfect chance to catch up and just talk about that. But that was just that story I wanted to save because I was like, man, I just remember giving you that chair. And it was funny, too, because I actually went with my manager, who was my manager at a video game store I was working at.

And he went with me because he was so excited to see CCW. And he was like, oh, I hope I won't see anything that's going to make me get sick or anything. And I'm like, well, I guess that's subjective. But I was like, I don't think you will. And he ended up loving it. And after that, though, he just really was one of those guys that he liked the show.

But his love affair with wrestling was starting to sort of fade away. And I kind of understand that because my love of wrestling started to fade away around like 2004, 2005. And then I just kind of stopped watching altogether. I mean, I know you retired in 2003. I'm sorry, I'm getting way ahead of this interview. I'm just going all over the place here. Well, that's good.

This just confirms, we got to talk, man. You mentioned that around 2004, 2005 is when you kind of drifted away from wrestling, and I retired in 2003, and so I had watched wrestling for a couple years and just tracked with everything that was going on, but I came to realize it kind of needs to be all in or all out for me, because I don't always want to feel pulled or tempted, pulled back toward the ring, but

but so it's just interesting. It seems like you kind of veered away from wrestling the same time that I did and maybe started really pursuing film just like I did. Yeah, that was right around the time that I... You know what it was? Honestly, Matt, was...

It was a combination of all the independent promotions I liked, like ECW had folded, which was like 2001. You know, a lot of the other independents I was watching, a lot of my other friends weren't into it. The only thing that was keeping my interest in wrestling was legitimately CZW and Big Japan. If it wasn't for those two promotions, I would have just stopped altogether because WWE was awful at that point.

Who did you train with? I didn't know you did that.

Yeah. See, I saved all this, Matt. I saved all this because I wanted to actually talk about this on the podcast. So I train with a couple of different people. My main training came with King Kong Bundy. Do you remember him?

Yeah, I was on a couple shows with him. I remember I had a girlfriend who was a wrestler, and she brought a big batch of cookies for everybody. This is my King Kong Bundy memory. But all of a sudden, it's just like, where did all the cookies go? And you realize he literally ate all of them. It's funny because I actually, we had to go, me and my best friend at the time,

I'm both training to be a wrestler at his school and we had to go pick him up one time to go to practice. Right. So we pick him up at his house in Jersey and, uh, we, we knock on the door and, and Bunny's like, come on in boys, come on in. And, you know, he's sitting there in his big Berka lounger recliner type deal. And,

eating a half gallon of ice cream, watching Hunter. He's nowhere near ready. And we're like, you know, King, like we got to get training and like, you know, I don't know, half an hour or so. And he goes, he goes, don't worry, they won't start without me. This is just his way of dealing with the Indies, I suppose, after, you know, bigger stages than just how to, how he's coping with the Indies. Yeah.

At least with Bundy, at least he was a lovable guy. You know what my favorite Bundy story is? And this has almost nothing to do with Bundy. It was the fact that there was a Chinese restaurant right down from where we trained. And one day he orders a bunch of food. And he says, you guys come deliver it to me. He asked for King Kong Bundy.

So we're in the ring working out, right? And the delivery guy comes through the front door and he comes into the ring and he goes, I have a delivery here for a ping pong rundy. And everybody starts dying. And Bundy comes out of his office and he goes, that's me! And we all started calling him ping pong after that. And he goes...

He was so angry about that. And he's like, he's like, he's like the next guy who calls me ping pong is going to be out in the street. Uh, but, but, uh, but it was such a cool guy sometimes. And it was, I,

I know I'm going off on King Kong Bundy here, but I'll tell you this one funny Bundy story. You get this because you grew up watching him and obviously you're a professional wrestler. One time Bundy was on an indie show and he splashed the guy. The referee goes, one, two, three. Bundy goes, five. The ref goes, one, two, three. Bundy at this family-friendly indie show yells out, you piece of shit! He shoves the ref...

And the promoter was like, hey, Chris, this is a family-friendly show, and you just yell shit in the middle of the ring in front of kids. He goes, I'm sorry. He goes, I wanted that five count, and he started counting over from one.

Oh man, I'm so glad you have some indie wrestling memories and stories, even though your tenure was kind of brief. I mean, those moments, they tend to happen when you hang around any of the former stars or the whole indie wrestling scene. So that is classic. I was very fortunate, Matt, because I was involved with pro wrestling for like this little teeny tiny window.

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And I was just fortunate enough to be in the right place at the right time and just sort of do my thing. And actually, it was funny enough, I actually applied because I started talking to Zandig about going to CCW school back when it was run by John Dahmer and Eddie Valentine and those guys. And I never actually went to a practice, but I was talking to Zandig about showing up. And then I ended up trying to go to ECWA school, which was run by Mozart Fontaine.

Um, and then, then I started, then I went to bunny school, but you know, enough about me, Matt, I'm sorry. I'm, I'm like monopolizing this conversation. I'm so sorry. Um, so I want to talk about you. I don't talk about, you know, your, your whole career and everything. So when you started off in professional wrestling, now what, what drew you to actually get into professional wrestling?

It was the same as you, ECW. That was a promotion that, of course, came up out of the underground on the East Coast of the United States and had a little bit more edge to it, had a little bit more risk-taking, had a little bit more colorful characters and crowd involvement. It was extreme, and so that was what got me into it as a teenager and what ultimately...

motivated me and inspired me to pursue it once I hit my late teens. And you grew up in Minnesota, correct? I was born in Minnesota, but I grew up in Pennsylvania. So I was right there when ECW was in Pennsylvania and New Jersey and Delaware and New York. So I definitely hit up several of those shows a month. I was going all the time with my friends.

Oh, that's awesome. So you were really, really close to me because I'm from Philly, so I went to a lot of those shows as well. So what was one of your favorite ECW moments actually going to those shows? The first time I ever went to an ECW show, I was 15, and this kid that I knew from school, his name was Phil, he said to me, do you want to go to this show?

pro wrestling show and I was like, uh, I don't know. And he's like, you can bring weapons. And I said, what? And he's like, yeah, he's like, yeah, you bring weapons. I'm like, what do you mean weapons? And he's like, oh, just stuff in your house that, you know, you want the wrestlers to hit each other with. And I didn't know what he was talking about. Yeah, but bring some cookie sheets or whatever. And I did and this, like I said, it was 1995. This was before the athletic commission really got involved. But

but every show, not all the wrestlers, but a good number of them would brawl through the crowd, just reach out, whatever you hand them, Mack the guy would give it back to you. It was very interactive, and oftentimes you get something handed back to you with blood on it, and I couldn't believe this. I just couldn't fathom. So that was what hooked me initially, but Paul Heyman, with his booking, he was also sure to...

get some real athleticism and very, very talented athletes on the shows as well. So it was just a very polished and well-rounded product, but that was what really caught my attention as a teenager.

Yeah, and I know what you mean because it was just so different. It had such an edge to it, which is indicative because it was like that sort of backlash. Because you remember wrestling in the early 90s to mid-90s? They had characters like Duke the Dumpster Drosey and Bastion Booger and all those characters. And they were just so cartoony. And then in WCW, you had the Dungeon of Doom and what was going on there.

And then all of a sudden ECW comes in, it's a completely different product. It's a lot edgier, a lot more in your face, a lot more hardcore. And I mean, you know, you just saw it and you're like, what the hell is this? You know, uh, you know, and, uh, some people once told me that, and this really was what really I remember most about, you know, how, how they branded themselves. And it was WF is fake. WCW is fake, but this right here is real. Yeah.

I can literally remember at one point I was wearing like five ECW shirts a week at school, in high school. Each day I'd wear a different one. I was really a fanatic for a while. And I remember giving school presentations. You could talk about whatever you wanted. And I gave a presentation on how this wrestling was real. And at one point there was some heat.

between Cactus Jack and Sandman. And I kid you not, I was at a show, I think it was in Jim Thorpe, Pennsylvania. But it was sort of like a battle royal. A new wrestler comes to the ring every, I don't know, two minutes or something like that. And Sandman comes out with a fresh Singapore cane, which is like strands of bamboo, you know, tied together.

swings it, hits Mick Foley, Cactus Jack, on the side of the face, the cheekbone, and shatters the cane. I'm not kidding. He swung it like a baseball bat. And pieces flew in the crowd, and I picked up a piece of this cane, and this is one of the things I brought into school, just to try and convince people that this is real wrestling.

It's like, it's like, it's like, Hey, look, look at this teacher. It's a, it's a piece of cane that, that got some guy named cactus Jack and it busted over his head. And it's just, I did the teacher like freak out and be like, what the hell?

It's funny because I think what spurred this on was the teacher, I don't know, overheard me talking about this wrestling and how it's real. And she's like, no, it's all just effects and they don't really get hurt. And the blood is fake. And I remember also bringing in a cookie sheet that had blood, just like crusty blood dripped all the way down it. But I remember telling the story and the teacher was just, hey man, are you still there?

So if you could hear me, we were going good, and all of a sudden you cut out, and there's like this whistling. Oh, now it's gone. It's back now. There's like this whistling I can hear. I don't know what that is. It's kind of an open area. I passed through a valley, but let me know. Is the whistling still there? No, it's gone now. I don't know what that was. It was weird. But I'm sorry. So could you take it right from where you said about the crusty blood coming down the cookie sheet? Yeah. Yeah.

So I think what motivated this presentation was a teacher overhearing me talking about the wrestling being real and saying, that's not real. They're stunned men and the blood is fake. And so I brought in this piece of Singapore cane. I remember bringing in a cookie sheet that had crusty blood on it.

And that kind of silenced the teacher. But half the students in the class are just looking at me like, what's with this dude? Like, why does he even want to talk about this stuff? But I was riveted as a teenager. You know, I was the same as you, Matt, when I was in high school because I had all the wrestling t-shirts and stuff. And I remember one time I wore a Yoshihiro Tajiri t-shirt. And it was all in Japanese. And a friend of mine was like,

what the hell is this? He goes, you're wearing, now you don't even wear shirts in English anymore. He's like, it's all in Japanese. He's like, he's like, I don't even know if this guy's even a wrestler or whatever. Um, and then, I mean, I know you did this as well, but you got involved in backyard wrestling. Um, I did, I did that as well.

And it went from this, like, my league that I had, we were like, you know, it was a fun little thing. Then all of a sudden it started getting more and more like violence to the point where our final time that we had an event, if you want to call it an event, what happened was the neighbors up at the top of this hill could see down onto us and

And they actually called the cops on us because they were like, oh, look, these kids are having a brawl down there. And it was so weird how it happened because it's like one bike cop shows up first, right? One lone bike cop. And he goes, hey, guys, what's going on? And we're just like, because we were all just standing there. We're like, hey, dude, you know, like, you know, we were just.

It wasn't like a confrontation. It was like a friendly conversation. I'm like a bike cop randomly coming to my friend's backyard. And he pulled... Because he had a driveway all the way down. It was really weird how we had this set up. So the bike cop just went down and used that. And he's like, well... He goes, we got a report that there's a brawl or a mob brawl or something going on. I'm like, well, not here. Well, all of a sudden, all these other cars started coming... Police cars started coming down. They're like, oh, my God. Are you guys... What are you guys doing back here? Well...

All of a sudden, my friend's mom comes out of their house, and she's drunk as shit. And she's trying to, like, what are they doing out here now? And, I mean, it was, like, the worst case scenario that could have happened. Yeah.

And it's just like afterwards, the friends and I were like, I don't think we should do this anymore. And everyone kind of agreed because the guy, obviously, we didn't get in trouble or anything. But we're like, you know, if something were going on, it would have been like terrible. But I know you also did backyard wrestling too, right, Matt? Yeah.

Yeah. And it's funny hearing you say that. It just dawned on me. I think, number one, we would have been pretty good friends had we grown up together. And two, we might have led to some, I don't know if I'd say jail time, but some trouble with the law as well. Because whenever I had somebody just throw gas on the fire with me, we ended up getting in trouble. And that probably would have been the case. We'll be right back after a word from our sponsor.

And now, back to the show. But, yeah, we dabbled in the backyard as well. This was before that whole movement, but we would just call it ninja battles. We'd play music, store up a bunch of weapons, and it was just unbelievable.

unscripted chaos. It was funny. Sometimes people got hurt. It was exciting. But yeah, we did this at least once a month, sometimes a couple times a month, and would end up limping around school with bruises and little cuts and stuff. But yeah, that was a big part of my teenage years as well.

Yeah, we would have been good friends, Matt. We probably would have done jail time together because you and I are kind of close in age. I'm 32, and I know we're kind of close in age, and it would have been kind of funny to go to school together. Because, again, you were probably right up the street from me because I'm right here in Philly, so you were probably growing up right down the street from me. I didn't even know it.

because we've had all these meetings and stuff like that. So as you went and did all this backyard wrestling, aka ninja battles, at what point did you want to go professional with this? This was around the end of high school. I was naturally...

gifted when it came to art. That was something I just gravitated towards and everybody assumed I was going to go to art school. I was going to pursue it. But I had a real bad time with some of my teachers in high school and especially my senior year. And

At the same time, I had a growing interest in this wrestling stuff. And so with some really frustrating things with teachers and getting in trouble my senior year, which was when I was trying to clean up my act, but I had some unfortunate things...

I've told this story before, but essentially I designed our school's yearbook cover and I made a really elaborate design, put some symbols on it that were inspired by Greek mythology and I can't remember what else, but they printed the yearbooks, passed them out. Last minute, I get accused of putting satanic symbols on the yearbook cover. It was a huge deal. They weren't going to let me graduate. They

They hired a special investigator to look into this. He got back and he said, if anything, these are more gang-related, not satanic. But he said, this is nothing to worry about. I was cleared of all charges, but I was so upset over this incident and other bad experiences with some art teachers in high school that I just said, screw it. I'm going to wrestling school. So...

Yeah, that was my senior year. It was just a growing interest in ECW, and I finally started putting some muscle on working out, and then I just said, you know what? I think I could do this. This is what I'm going to do. I knew it was going to be short-term, but I figured I'd take a break and shake off all the school drama for a while and just do something really wild.

Yeah. And, and honestly, uh, I think you dodged a bullet not going to art school. Uh, I honestly, you know, listeners of this podcast, no man, I am against college. And I know everybody immediately, as soon as I say something like that, everyone goes, what? You know what? But, but I am, man, I've, I've, I know I have a college education. I graduated from college. Uh,

I have a huge student loan debt. That degree has helped me not one iota. And also, I worked at the college I graduated from. That was a terrible experience. And I can tell you, man, it's just funny you mentioned, just going back, when you were talking about they had a special investigator come in. You know, schools...

It's unbelievable when schools want to spend money on something stupid. They will always find thousands of dollars to spend money on like an investigator to investigate stuff like this But yet when people are actually asking for money for like real things, they're like, oh, sorry. We have nothing to spend I Can I can remember look at the principal in the eyes and I said you listen to me I said not only am I gonna graduate but

I'm not going to serve one bit of punishment or anything for this. I said, mark my words. Principal didn't know what to say, but fortunately it ended up being right. My dad was out of the state or out of the country. I can't remember at the time. He might have been visiting my sister in Spain. She was going to college there, but my dad called the school as well, and he said,

you guys are fortunate. I'm not there right now. If you're going to do this to my son. And, uh, it was just so absurd, like accusing me of being a Satan worshiper and trying to put these symbols on your book cover. So it was a small town I grew up in. It was, uh, Lancaster, Pennsylvania. I was in Elkins park for a while, uh, very close to you. But, um, then I was in Lancaster with, you know, small country, small town, um,

environment. So, you know, people get freaked out over that sort of thing. It's a witch hunt. And so unfortunately I, I went through that, but yeah, that was, that was rough. Yeah. Lancaster is, you know, probably about 45 minutes, 50 minutes away from me. And, uh, you know, I, I know the small town you're talking about, uh, you know, cause I, I actually had a friend of mine, we actually shot a movie in Birdsboro, Birdsboro, uh, which I'm sure you know where that is.

Yes, I've heard of Birdsboro, yes. Okay, so we actually shot a movie there, and it was just funny because when he said that town name, I'm like, what the hell is Birdsboro? It was just this little burg, and I've been up there, so I know that mentality. You know what I mean? He's trying to poison the mind with these satanic symbols. You know what I mean?

It's, um, but, but, you know, when you, when you were talking about going to college and, you know, and you had a choice between going to college or wrestling school, I honestly, you know, Matt, I think you did the right, right thing. Um, not only because we're talking, have this conversation, obviously, but with, you know, decisions you made, but also because I honestly, most people I know that go to college just aren't happy at all.

You know, I agree with you and I have heard your previous podcasts and I know your stance on this and I'll say that I believe self-motivation plays such a big part of how well your college experience does or doesn't go because I can tell you I didn't get all the film education I needed in college but I had a tight-knit group of friends that we just worked so hard on each other's shoots and that was where we learned the most and

And so as far as what college did for me, it's just the schedule, the discipline, having deadlines, and then learning how to work with people and, you know, having projects that have to be turned in. So the routine. So I will say, yes, you can do all of that on your own, but you have to be very motivated. And, you know, you can't say, oh, well, my job got in the way. I can't go to college. You can't say, oh, my, my,

kids or my whatever you know are distracting me it's like you have these deadlines you have to hit but I I know exactly what you need if you're not self-motivated you're not gonna learn what you need to learn yeah and it's you know just with college in general what I've you know noticed just working in a college actually at several colleges and also at a attending a college is you know a lot of the kids who go there are always told you have to go to college if you want a good job

And I see a lot of the people that go to certain colleges, they're just not...

there to learn and to get better, they feel like it's just something where they have to do to get that degree. And it's like, let's just get, let's get this over as quick as possible. And I think that's just bad as well, because it's just like, it shouldn't be something where you're like, all right, I got to do this. If I want, if I got to, you know, go out and get this degree and whatever. I mean, half of the, where I worked at mainly where I worked at was like one of those discounted college that you always hear about. You know what I mean? Where it's just pure fluff and,

There's, you know, nobody ever knows what's going on. That was literally every, every trope, every stereotype you could think of, of college was this college. It was just a small little college, uh, right outside of Philly. And, uh,

It just, you know, there was like really nothing going on there. And half the kids there or even more than half the kids had like no plan. It was just like, we're here, you know, just to sort of pass the time or whatever. You know what I mean? And as we sort of talk about like education in general.

you know, you and I are big movie fans and you really don't need to go to college to take a lot of... to learn about movies or even, you know, go to film school or whatever because that's a big topic, obviously, on this podcast is if film school is even worth it. And, you know, now, you know, if you or I...

even nowadays, wanted to gain more knowledge of film, we could get a Netflix rental. I could go out right now and buy a camera package and it would be cheaper. All of that. And I could even add a lot more stuff to it. It would be cheaper than even one semester of college. It's absolutely true. And I feel like

We went through the season of, oh boy, here come the movies. Everybody can make a movie, but I actually feel like it's slowly going to rebound where quality is going to be necessary because it is so easy to make a movie, or at least compared to what it used to be. We'll be right back after a word from our sponsor. And now, back to the show.

but I'm actually, that's kind of a different topic, but like, I'm hoping the industry is going to go in that direction. I mean, the mainstream things are always going to be a formula that, you know, they know that the masses want to see, but I'm just saying, because it's getting so easy and you can really educate yourself and, you know, create the product on your own. Like I'm hoping that, and I believe I'm starting to see it. Like you have to be really, really sharp at your craft. If you're going to, if you're going to cut through all that, you know?

Yeah, and that's another thing that we talk a lot about this on the podcast is that allure, that everybody can make a movie. And honestly, hand to God, it is true. Everybody can make a movie because we have our phones, we have camera packages that are getting cheaper and cheaper. The difference is about making a quality movie. And I have been on bad film sets. I've been on really good film sets. And also I can see what the end product is going to be.

Excuse me. And I, and I, um, and I can see, you know, as we sort of go through all the, you know, through all these different phases of, of what we're doing, going with through now with film and distribution and marketing and, and all the new wonderful advancements in cameras, you kind of start looking around and you go, wow, you know, people are, are, I had Sean Baker on here, uh, who, who shot a tangerine on his iPhone and it, and it was, uh, you know, I think it won Sundance, uh,

you know, I had on somebody else who shot their film with a GoPro. And, you know, it's about how, I mean, obviously there's a lot more to it than what I'm saying. So if anyone's listening to this and think it's just, you know, picking up a phone and, you know, going out and filming, that's not what they did. They did a lot more to it. But I think you're absolutely right, Matt. I think, honestly, it's going to bounce back sooner than later. And I think it's because I think a lot of people are just going to make one movie and maybe sort of

go away from it. You know what I mean? They're going to say, hey, listen, I made my movie in my backyard with my friends and maybe they didn't like the experience and that was sort of it for them. And then they're going to have to realize because the quality that people are used to is always going to be there. And especially now with YouTube and Hulu and not Hulu, Vimeo,

You see independent filmmakers and the quality that they can do. It does raise the bar for what an indie standard is. You're exactly right. The two main questions are always going to be there. Who's in it and what's it about?

You know, if you're sitting in the room and somebody says, oh, hey, this movie is coming out this weekend. You know, who's in it? Oh, it's Tom Cruise. What's it about? He's trying to stop this bomb that's going to blow up the Parliament building in London or whatever, you know. But those questions, especially the what's it about, you have to have a really sharp hook and a really sharp idea and notion of,

And I still think it's tough to sell a really good film without a star in it if you don't have a star in it. And so I think they're going to be weeding through, you know, the top talent. And so because so many people are going to be coming at them with offers and with films nowadays, it's going to have to be a rock-solid concept. And so, you know, I'm optimistic that, like I say, it's going to start to weed out the...

It's great that people are making films with their iPhones and their GoPros, but that's not going to work 99 times out of 100. You're going to have to be very, very sharp at your skill if you're going to pull that off. Yeah, and you know what I found to be most true about all of this, too, is when Netflix first started, I was actually a pretty early subscriber to Netflix.

And you know what's funny? Was that they used to let you submit your films to Netflix directly. Like, it wasn't a whole process. Like, there was literally a tab that said, submit your film to Netflix. I actually had friends who got their movies onto Netflix with, like, absolute dreck. And they knew it was dreck. And they were like, you know, they were telling me, like, hey, Netflix accepted my movie. And I said, what? Really? Yeah.

And I said, wow. And then I, you know, it was basically like a kind of like an all shoot at YouTube at that point then. Well, my perception of it, because I kept, I was like, wow, this, this was like something with a mini DV cam nowadays. It's like, oh, that obviously is long gone. And now they, you know, you have to have certain even, um, uh, deliverable requirements to even get on Netflix, even for, you know what I mean? Cause they, they, they actually have, uh,

the minimum requirements listed on their website that say this is what you're going to have to have if you ever want to see your movie on our website and which kind of sort of brings me what I want to talk about with you is you got into filmmaking and we're talking about the film education so when you were still pro wrestling you actually you had a job at Blockbuster at some point right?

Yeah, in my first two years into film school, I was still wrestling on the weekends and keeping that a secret. For those that don't know, I was involved in

some very violent wrestling, uh, beyond hardcore wrestling, ultra violent wrestling is what they were calling it at the time. And which would leave me bruised, limping, oftentimes with stitches. Um, and I wasn't telling anybody about this in art school. I was trying to hide it. And so I used to say it, it was always like the movie fight club. I'm just trying to make up a, an excuse of what happened to me and live in this double life. Um, but,

But anybody who's gone to college full-time and anybody who thinks going to art school is easy, like it's not real college, man, is it ever hard work, everything that they dump on you. And so those first two years were very, very hard, you know, flying out on the weekends, getting banged up, bruised up, cut up, and then coming back and trying to maintain a full schedule at college. So, yeah, I was juggling boats for a while.

Yeah, you know, because I remember, I forget when it was, but I saw a photo of you, you know, doing your trademark...

hand gesture and you're with a blockbuster shirt on and I remember saying oh Mondo you know your wrestling name Sick Nick Mondo I remember saying to myself oh Mondo works at blockbuster that's freaking cool you know because I imagine you know now as we're talking you must have been able to get a lot of free rentals to get like a really cool you know film school you know rate your fingertips by actually watching movies kind of like what Quentin Tarantino did

I really enjoy working at Blockbuster for a long time. And I'm like, they'd have the employee recommendation wall and nobody cared about it, but I really did. And I'd update it and just chat with...

customers and we were a smaller store but my sales numbers were matching anybody like in the bigger district stores I'd sell the rewards programs and whatever else because if I believe in something I can sell it you know but I it was really fun for a while you know for a few years working there but I did have a couple times like I said I wasn't telling people I was wrestling and one time I was working and the manager was there and somebody came in and he sees me and he's like

yo, he's like sick Nick Mondo. And I just kind of froze and I was just like, hi. And he's like, yeah, I saw you wrestle in the West St. Paul Armory or something, so on and so forth. And I noticed my manager's kind of watching like, what? And then he came over afterwards and he's like, so what was that about? And reluctantly I told him, but then I, you know what I did? I walked over, we had a, a video game you could rent. It was backyard wrestling too. Um,

There goes the neighborhood. That's what the game was called. I was in that game, and I was actually on the back cover of it because he didn't believe me that I was a wrestler. I was like, yeah, that's something I did for a while. I had just quit at the time, actually, but it's just a weird... I was friends with Ken Kennedy, and he was living in Minnesota.

And so was I. And just one time, randomly, he brought Matt Hardy into the store to meet me. I'm working, and just Ken walked in, you know, brought him in. And I burst out laughing. I didn't mean to when I saw Matt, because it's just like the funniest thing. Like, I didn't expect Matt Hardy to come in. But yeah, then we chatted for a while, and Matt was really cool. And then I got to see them wrestle at the Target Center a couple days later, or a day later, or something like that. But yeah, weird mix of worlds, for sure.

So can I just ask, is Ken Kennedy a good guy in person? Man, I got along with him instantly. And yeah, we were both living in Minnesota. And I know there's some heat in WWE, some clashes with people. I don't even know the full story that unfortunately led to him not going as far as a lot of people expected him to there. But I don't quite know what happened. But I'll just say like I...

we loved that guy we brought him on to some film projects and my friends everybody just was so entertained by him and I always enjoyed being around Kent really really did

You know, I know I'm sorry to sort of go on a side topic here. Matt, I have a funny little Ken Kennedy story. I was remember when he was in that movie behind enemy lines for Columbia. Yeah. Well, I actually he was going to be in Philly for a signing. So I said, you know, it's my friend. I said, you know what? Let's go down there. I want to meet him just for shits and giggles. And we both like, you know, we both we both like movies. He made me his friend of mine. And we both.

At the time, we're kind of iffy about wrestling, but we knew who he was. So I said, you know what? Let's just go down there. We walk in and this woman is standing there and saying that we both need to buy a copy of the movie for us to meet him. We'll be right back after a word from our sponsor. And now back to the show.

So I said, okay. I said, all right then. So I go to pick up a copy of the movie and it's retail. They didn't even have it on sale. It was like $35 or whatever for this Blu-ray. And I said, are you serious? You're really going to charge us and not even like discount this thing? And she goes, you get to go up there and meet Ken Kennedy and blah, blah, blah, this and that. And my friend actually refused to do it. And it,

It ended up where he refused to buy a copy of the movie. And then this woman was basically just goading us into a fight. It was just like, finally, we just left. And we're like, oh, well. But we never got to meet Ken Kennedy whatsoever. And it was just kind of weird that we went all the way up there. And we ended up just getting turned away. Because we wouldn't buy this movie at a full retail price.

And my friend obviously had a big problem about it. But it was just, I don't know, I just always think about that every time somebody mentions Ken Kennedy. That's the first thing that comes to my mind. What a disappointing experience. I would imagine if Ken knew about that, he wouldn't have had that at all. I mean, I used to be on indie wrestling shows with him, and he was nothing. But he was a loud mouth, and he was a heel. But he'd always take time for pictures and signings and everything. So, yeah, that's unfortunate, man.

That's so good to know. And hopefully maybe one day I can have Ken on the show because he does do acting. He does do movies. And I would love to talk to him at some point. But, you know, sorry, Matt. Sorry to go on that little side note there. But so...

You retired from wrestling in right around like 2000, 2003, 2004. And the reason was, were you just burned out from pro wrestling? Or was this always sort of your plan to sort of, you know, retire after a few years? I got hurt pretty badly in my final performance. It was a deathmatch tournament.

deathmatch is just basically a match that involves weapons or extremely dangerous things in the ring. I did three matches that night and won that tournament, but I got hurt very badly in the second round. However, my plan was always to wrestle for maybe one or two years. When I

When I started training, my goal was to go to ECW, the company that we were talking about earlier. But as you mentioned, they went bankrupt in 2001. This was right when I was starting to develop a name for myself. And so...

I did wrestle for a couple years past that. It was about four and a half years that I wrestled, almost five. But no, I never planned on having a long career. And so it was just a matter of picking the right time to leave. So yeah, I actually decided I was going to quit like three months before that performance. That was when I decided that.

It was terrible. I was knocked out cold. I severed an artery in my spine.

not in my spine, but to the side of my back. There was an artery. I didn't even know I was bleeding that bad. And I had never been rattled like that in my life. When I woke up, I couldn't move any limbs. It took me a while to even get any movement back in my limbs. And so, and bad concussion and probably all sorts of fractured bones from that. I actually didn't go and get x-rayed, but I was hurt very badly from that.

But then you still went on to wrestle again later that night, again against Ian Rotten in the finals. I've told people oftentimes the referee will reach down and put two fingers in your hand and he'll say, if you're okay, squeeze my fingers. And I remember it was right after I got the movement back in my limbs, he did that, and I squeezed his fingers. But when I tried to sit up and I could feel how hurt I was, it was the first time I ever thought I should...

I shouldn't have squeezed his fingers. Like I'm hurt that bad. Um, but the plan was for me to win that match and go on to the finals. And so, uh, so I did, but I, I was in awful shape.

So, Matt, at what point after you won the tournament, did you even think about maybe going to the hospital after that and just saying, you know what, I think I'm just too banged up. I think we should go to the hospital? Between matches, before I went out for my final match that night, I was really out of it. I can only remember about half of it. I had a terrible concussion. But when a nurse pulled a piece of glass out of my back, I started...

gushing blood, like profusely. They couldn't get it to stop. They were actually going to call an ambulance. They, they'd said, call, call an ambulance, but I still hadn't told hardly anybody, but because I knew that I wanted to finish my last match and then be done, I said, no, just wrap me up. Let me finish this. Um, I needed to go to the hospital, but I was at that point, I was so done with wrestling just because I,

I was carrying a lot of stress and I was really banged up. I was really beat up. I already had a broken wrist coming into that tournament and I was just fed up with it. And then I got hurt really bad there and I couldn't stand the thought of having to come back and do the finals like, you know, a month later. And so I said, just let me finish this. You know, I'm not sure that was the best decision, but it was what I chose at the time.

And I mean, you know, for everyone listening to this and wondering, like, my God, how do you how do you come back from something like that? Just not even talking about professional wrestling, but just in just in general, you know, were you just your endorphins just so upright at that point where you're just endorphins just sort of taking you over and you were sort of like on autopilot?

I barely was functioning. I can remember bits and pieces. I remember trying to call my final...

match and I would just have moments where I would drift off and say nothing and Ian Rotten who I was going to wrestle kept saying like are you sure you can do this like are you sure are you sure you can do this and so he had to pretty much just like hand feed me that last match my head was so scrambled I was so out of it so no it wasn't even an adrenaline rush it was more just I want to get this over and go home and know that it's done you know so that was the only thing carrying me through

And so, so in the aftermath, you know, you're, you're retired, uh, from professional wrestling. And, you know, I actually ended up a few years ago seeing a documentary you made called unscarred, uh, the sick McMondo story. And,

And I wanted to ask about that, you know, because I was actually funny because you had a lot of footage on there that I thought was hilarious. You know, like you guys put the toilets up on the on the train tracks and stuff like that and all that crazy. So, you know, what inspired you to make that documentary, you know, chronicling those years from from you as sort of like a teenager all the way into into wrestling?

I was dabbling, putting together, it was basically just going to be like sort of a scrapbook way of remembering things from my wrestling career. But a company caught wind of it and I was offered a deal. It was basically commissioned. So I made that thing and sold it for distribution. So it was during film school. I only had like six weeks to get that thing done. I'd committed to a DirecTV date and

and uh... so that was on top of my full load of uh... you know college uh... classes and so uh... just rock that thing out pretty fast but it was it was commissioned basically to a federal through a contact i had

So, and then basically, you know, cause I, I love all the footage. So basically when you were, you were shooting all this stuff, you know, this is back when like mini DV cams or even remember those big VHS tape recorders. So I imagine too, that you, you probably had a lot of those, like a lot of that footage, you had to kind of combine together in different formats, like a VHS, uh, you know, mini DV, uh, am I right?

Yeah, just about everything I shot was on those small, like high-eight tapes, like those small Sony or whatever, you know, cassette tapes. I got my hands on one of those cameras, I think around age 15. I mean, it filled up just hours and hours and hours of that stuff. We just shot stuff all the time, yeah.

And now as soon as we come full circle, you know, the camera stuff now is so, it's so much lighter and it's a better quality. I mean, hell, I was just playing around the DSLR the other day and I'm like, my God, I remember those big VHS cameras. And I remember playing those back and like, wow, look at this quality of a, of a picnic or whatever else. And now you're just like, my God, how the hell did I lug that damn thing around?

I still remember first hearing when you were going to be able to record on a digital medium and, you know, on these little compact flashcards or whatever. And I just couldn't fathom it and I couldn't trust it either. It's just like, yeah, right. Like that, it's going to be like a hard drive. Like you bump it and it's going to erase everything. And I was terrified about it at first, but I can't really think of any,

mistakes with DSLRs just like dumping everything on their own they seem pretty reliable so it's impressive really impressive how far the technology has come yeah it's you know and you know with all the different formats that you know we've both worked with and with all the different things that are coming out you know I'm gravitating more and more towards you know I used to love physical media we'll be right back after a word from our sponsor and now back to the show

Well, I still do. I shouldn't say I used to, but you know what I mean? But like now it's, it's so much, you know, stuff to sort of keep track of. And he has, you know, piles of DVDs here and piles of books here. And I'm, I'm, I'm in the back of my mind. I'm thinking to myself, someday, am I just going to get rid of all this and have nothing but an entire library on a Kindle and

and just go from there. You know what I mean? Because eventually you're like, I don't know, this physical stuff, it's just kind of... Sometimes you love having it because nobody can take it from you because it's not in the cloud. But sometimes you say to yourself, man, if I wanted to declutter this room, I'd have to get rid of a lot of stuff. I'm going to be interested to see how that goes because I just moved back from Japan recently.

And DVD stores are still doing well there, like rental stores. And I love that, and I miss that experience. DVDs, Blu-rays, just walk around, browse, look at covers. To me, that's a lot better than hopping on iTunes and scrolling through some things. It's not the same feeling. And I don't think it's just me being nostalgic. I think it just makes the experience more relaxing. There's only so much time you want to spend

staring at a glowing rectangle each day, you know? And so I don't know. I, I also, I just pulled a bunch of books out of storage and sold them. And, and, um, while they were like tallying up the price, I was walking around a bookstore, um, in the States and, and thinking like, man, this is, I miss this. Like this is, this is a good feeling. And so, um,

I think there's always going to be a contingency of people who are going to hold on to the physical medium, but as it gets cheaper and cheaper to make, uh, distribute movies, you know, through digital mediums that it, there, there is going to be a push and pull a tug of war going on for sure.

You moved to Japan. I wanted to ask about that too because when we reconnected, I saw you were living in Japan and I'm thinking to myself, my God, to sort of just pick up and move to Japan, it's something off the beaten path. I mean, I love Japan, but I always hear two things from everybody about going to Japan. I hear these two things.

They love it, but my God, is it expensive. Is that true? Is that true, Matt? It's very true, and especially any kind of travel in Japan. Like, I will never complain about tolls in the U.S. again. Like, when you're driving, you can get on the highway and drive for like three hours, something like that.

and get off, and depending on where you are, like going from Tokyo south to Chiba, get off and pay $35 to $40 in tolls. Like, I've experienced this. Or you make a wrong turn in Tokyo, and you just take a loop in like a spaghetti bowl exit. You have to pay $5 just for going through that loop, and then you get back on, then you have to pay it again. Like, it's just horrendous. It's very expensive, but if you can...

If you can find a way to swing it, it's very, very reliable transportation. Like the trains and the buses, it's just remarkable how on time they are. But every country, every place you're going to live is going to have its ups and downs. But I had a wonderful time in Japan, in Tokyo.

You know what's funny? I have a friend of mine who just moved to Moldova. And Moldova is this weird... Well, I shouldn't say weird country. It's a country. It's a smaller country in Eastern Europe. And he just moved there from Canada. And he absolutely loves it. And he goes... Because his money goes further there. He talks about all the stuff that they have. The internet's faster than where he was in Canada and everything else. And...

But I always just think, go back to that, where it's, you know, and I have a friend of mine who moved to Latvia. But then I always think about, you know, my friends who've actually, like yourself, who've gone to Japan. And it's the exact opposite. They're like, you know, yeah, we love the culture. We love the media and how crazy Japan is. But they're like, my God, they're like, it's so expensive here. And I had a friend of mine who went there and he said, you must have to be a multimillionaire to live in Tokyo. Because he said, everything is just so priced so high.

And he goes, I don't know how people do it over there.

It's, I had a blast, you know, I, I had so many experiences in film over there. Um, so many random jobs, you know, operating cameras. I got to operate the red, like a full on, like steady cam, uh, you know, work this as a gaffer directing tons of editing. I got to work behind or in front of the camera. I learned that if you, if you're basically a Caucasian or even a Westerner, uh,

uh... somebody not from japan you have a visa a work visa and a flexible schedule you're an actor your model it's that simple i'm not even kidding like that it one day i was i was looking through the modeling uh... website like the agencies that i'll by just like you know what my eyes are looking again and i sat back and i read an article on how easy it is to get into it and i just said that's it i'm an actor

And, you know, fast forward a few years, I've, I've been in all sorts of movies, TV commercials, shows, um,

I mean, like, big roles, small roles, everything. It's like, I so got over my fear of being on camera. First, I'd be all nervous, but then I was just like, this is so easy, and honestly, the quality is not usually on par with what we do in the U.S. So, if you want to practice getting comfortable on camera, Japan is a fantastic place to do that. Wild, a lot of fun, but the other thing is that I got fed up with those. The film industry pays horribly

and they do not treat talent well at all. There are not unions. There are no unions. There's no protection for most talent. And so the low pay and the abuse you have to sustain is just like unfathomable. So I had a blast for a while, but as I speak to you right now, I'm driving to LA for Phoenix because I'm like,

This was fun, but I got to make some money doing this. I got to get in a place where people have money and real things are happening. So you moved back to America now, and now are you moving full-time back to L.A.?

That's the plan, yeah. I have a place I could crash. I've got a buddy I'm going to live with for a few months, but there's a huge, huge convention I'm attending this weekend, which it's called Pitch Fest, or they call it Script Fest, but yeah, Great American Pitch Fest. If I lose you, let me know. I'm driving through a little valley right here. Cool.

Yeah, but go ahead. I'm sorry. I'll see if I lose you. I'll just call you right back. But you know, it's funny, Matt, and I'm sorry to also interrupt you.

I actually applied to Pitchfest years ago because they were looking for a head of media, and I actually applied, and I was like a finalist for the position, but I didn't get it. And it's just funny that you're actually going to that. I actually know the two people, Bob and I think it's Sini or Sanai, whatever her name is. I actually know those two people who actually run that.

That's outstanding, man. That would have been a great gig. And you know what? I was reading through the guest list or list of companies and agencies that are going to be there, and I saw Whitney Davis. She's got her own literary agency, but you interviewed her episode 132. But that was one of the best episodes, I think, I've listened to of your podcast. She gave all sorts of insight on what it takes to

get representation as a writer and to work in LA. But yeah, she's going to be there. So I'm going to try and bring some projects and pitch and see. I'm not sure if it's a good, great fit for what she does, but I just thought she was really encouraging. And so I'm excited.

You know, it's funny, Matt. Everybody who listens to my podcast, and I've said this before, will always mention Whitney Davis is one of their favorite episodes. They'll always say, oh, I was listening to your podcast, and I listened to the one with whatever. Oh, but the one with Whitney Davis was awesome. And I said, I told her, I said, everyone compliments you, Whitney. I said, you got to come back on and talk about networking. But yeah, honestly, she is...

Uh, a phenomenal man. And honestly, Matt, if you could get a chance to even grab coffee with her, I would really, really encourage it. I'm going to, I'm going to totally, uh, named out Dave Bullis when I meet her. And, uh, I was excited because on, on the episode, it sounded like she mostly represents novelists, but reading up on what she's doing right now, she's representing quite a few screenwriters and she's, she's getting people work in TV and film. And so, uh, yeah, I'm, I'm excited to meet her.

Yeah, yeah. She's actually doing a lot of more screenwriting stuff now. And she went to Dallas and did a whole screenwriting seminar there. Then she's going now, she's, you know, obviously living in L.A. now, and

Oh, wait, I'm sorry. She goes back and forth between L.A. and Texas. That's what she does. Yeah, because I think she said to me she likes L.A., but her husband and they want us to close to Texas. But yeah, if you get a chance to even have coffee with her, honestly, huge, huge recommendation to do so. So, you know, and we're talking about Pitchfest, you know, so are you focusing a lot to Matt on writing scripts now? Yeah.

Yeah, I have three scripts that I'm bringing to Pitchfest that vary quite a bit. We'll be right back after a word from our sponsor. And now, back to the show.

And so I was just given the executive directory and it's really helpful. It tells exactly what these companies are looking for, how to pitch to them, how not to pitch to them, what the budget is, what genre they want. And so, yeah, writing and directing is still my primary goal. But, you know, I have a couple demo reels in order. This is

They're mostly looking for writers at Pitchfest, but these are production companies looking for scripts for material they want to produce, whether it's for a TV pilot or TV series or a film. And so most of these companies employ directors as well. So I'm just going to see what I can do, what I can pull off here.

Right.

Uh, you know, and that's obviously something that you're going to be obviously using as a discussion point. So if you could, Matt, could you talk about, you know, to talk about the trade and, uh, what the film is, uh, for every, for all the listeners out there?

Sure. I'll try and tell you in a nutshell. So I was in Tokyo for five and a half years, if you can believe it, working in the film industry. There were a couple feature-length films that I tried to get off the ground with people there. Didn't happen for various reasons, but I just want to make features. It's what I want to do. And so it's good to always, I believe, just stop and say, what do I have here?

right now or what story can I tell right now? And I did not intend on telling a story related to my wrestling career, but while I was in Japan, there was a younger guy who mimicked, who was mimicking my wrestling career. He's 10 years younger than me. He was a diehard fan. My wrestling name is Nick Mondo or Sick Nick Mondo.

And he used to come to the shows with signs saying, Little Mondo. And he dressed like me, just this skinny little kid. Five years after I quit, he got into wrestling. I didn't know he was going to do this. I knew he was training, but he debuted as Little Mondo, but put on 50 pounds of muscle, put on some weight, and was basically reenacting my character.

I was okay with that until he started reenacting all of the violent stuff that I did, getting hurt severely. And in sort of an agreement with him, making a deal with him, I said, I'll make an appearance in one of your matches if he was going to carry on a very, very dangerous stunt that had me concerned. And we made a bargain. He decided not to go through with it if I would show up in one of his matches. I did.

This was in December 2013. It ended up being a pretty emotional moment in the ring. It went over really well. He retired that character on the spot. Anyway, it shook loose all sorts of ideas.

Meanwhile, I'm trying to figure out what kind of a film can I make right now. So I had the idea for a wacky docudrama, half scripted, half documentary, basically detailing how and why I got into this violent wrestling business and why I left so abruptly. And so that's The Trade. It premiered in London.

It's screened in Tokyo. And just this past week, my sales reps did a special VIP screening in New York City for distributors and for press. So that is a film that I'm pushing for sale right now. Well, my reps have taken care of that, which is a relief. But...

That's one thing I'm hoping I can use for some momentum. It's half scripted, like I said, but that's my intention is to get into narrative film rather than documentary. So I'm really reaching for narrative film right now.

So, Matt, I wanted to ask you, what was that? By the way, I remember Little Mondo coming to these shows, too. I remember him being in the crowd and him dressing as you and he would come with his dad. And then I saw probably a few years ago, I did see that there was actually, he actually started wrestling and doing all that stuff. So what was the one stunt, what stunt was it where he was going to reenact of yours that you finally had to step in and say no? Well,

These deathmatch tournaments that I mentioned a year prior to my retirement, I was in a deathmatch tournament. I made it to the final round, and I finally lost in the finals by... It was a 200 light tube deathmatch.

barbed wire and salt death match. So, probably don't need to paint too much more of a picture for you. It was nasty. It was bloody. It needed stitches afterwards. But I lost the match by having one person hold my arms and the other one fire up a weed whacker and hit me in the stomach with it. So...

It's unbelievably insane. Once you step away from that whole scene, it's like, what on earth was I thinking? But in that world, it kind of fits in with the aesthetic, with what's going on. And so...

It became kind of infamous. It got a lot of circulation. And so Rory, that's his real name, Rory Little Mondo, was planning a stunt where they were going to destroy him in the ring and then he was going to get hit in the stomach twice with a weed whacker. And I just told him this really disturbs me. I was like, I knew you when you didn't even weigh 100 pounds.

I just, I have a problem with you maiming yourself, like trying to honor me. I'm like, this is not what I want you to do. You know, like, so that, that was, that was what he was planning on doing that. I finally made a bargain with it to not do it. You know, again, Matt, you know, it's funny. I was actually at tournament death one where that happened. I actually have to find it, but I have a photo of you taking homeless Jimmy off the top of that rider truck through that light tube covered table.

No kidding. You were there. Yep, I was there. I remember you because you fought Wifebeater in the finals, and I remember that. That was actually, funny enough, that was actually, I think, my final CCW show, or close to it. I can't remember. No, no, it wasn't my final one. My final one was one of the Cages of Death. That was my final...

Oh, man, that's fun to know that.

We've been running into each other here all these years and now we finally get to have this conversation. I'm amazed. It's a small world, right? I have to find that photo though. As we talk about the trade and it had its premiere in London and its premiere in Tokyo and also there was that press screening in New York a few days ago. What

what are some of the, uh, of the, of the plans for the trade? I mean, are you hoping to sort of, uh, you know, I mean, is it, is it like you, do you have like a personal goal for it? Like to get it on Netflix? Um, I, I would say getting in block, get it in blockbuster, but there's not really too many blockbusters around anymore. Yeah. I, I just, I hope to, I hope to get this thing, obviously a really good distribution deal in North America. Um,

wrestling fans in general are collectors you know this and so i want to get a really good dvd blu-ray package going i already have a bunch of bonus features that i can include i hope for mexico i hope for the uk hope for germany um maybe japan distribution in japan is really tough but um i know there's some southeast asia potential actually maybe china um

I don't know if this is possible, but my reps are going to try and set up some sort of a limited, maybe East Coast theatrical run, just like art house theaters, and maybe do a few meet-and-greet type screenings. But it would be great, you know? I hope to turn this thing into a profitable venture. I've invested a lot into it, so...

I just want it to be a really good step to another project. That's my ultimate goal. It's something that people can readily have available if they're interested.

I think that meet and greet is a great idea, especially if you do that in these really wrestling-friendly towns like Philly, New York, Boston, places like that, especially the meet and greet. It's kind of like what Kevin Smith did with Red State where he just basically took it on the road and it became the old way that people used to show films, which was they would take their film reels and they would go to town to town to town and say, you know, tonight is your chance to see The Wizard of Oz.

or Gone with the Wind or whatever. And then they'd go on to the next town the next day. And I think that for any filmmakers is really important because you have to stand out from the pack. And as sort of as if I could talk, as these big film studios, they're always wondering how they can sort of upcharge the ticket and still keep sales at a particular level.

We'll be right back after a word from our sponsor. And now, back to the show. And they always try to package things, like you'll get a digital download, you'll maybe get a shirt, you might get something else. And I think the biggest thing was, remember World War Z when that came out? Brad Pitt was making all those surprise appearances everywhere, and all of a sudden, ticket sales started going up for the thing because everyone's like, oh my God, is Brad Pitt going to show up here and talk to us? You know what I mean? So I really think...

Being able to meet the filmmaker is critical. And by the way, Matt, I'm sure as you know this, you'll know who's a filmmaker in the crowd because after they see the movie, the number one question they're going to ask you is, what'd you shoot that on?

Yeah, that's a good point. The two screenings that I attended so far were so much fun, and the Q&As that we did afterwards. So I'm completely on board. I was actually working on setting up a co-promotion with a wrestling company on the East Coast, like a screening the night before a big wrestling show, but my reps actually said, hold off on that, because if we give this opportunity to the distributors, we think that could be really...

appealing to them, especially if they already have the DVDs, Blu-rays printed and can sell them at these events. So I said, all right, it's in your hands. But, um, but by the way, how's that going? I know you were going to try and, uh, chase down Kevin Smith for an interview. Any, any, uh, possibility on that? Um,

It's kind of like stalled out. It was I thought we were going somewhere with it and it just kind of petered out. I really have to start stalking him again and just being like, come on the show, man. But but but all kidding aside, it did really peter out. And when when he when he has maybe when he when he's going to promote red, not red moose jaws, then I'll probably start talking to him again and see maybe if I can get him on the show.

Yeah, I'm sure a lot of people would be interested. I said Richard Kelly, too. I'd love to hear what he's up to, the director of Donnie Darko, what he has to say. But yeah, yeah, you're doing great with your podcast, man.

Oh, thank you, man. I really appreciate that, man. I try my best. Sometimes I stumble and stammer because I want to say like five things at one time. But other than that, you know, I've got a pretty good guest list. It's just funny because one of the things that I am pretty strong at is networking.

Uh, I've just, it's just a skill that comes natural to me. So like doing this podcast, people are like, how the hell did you get this guy on here? And I go, I have no idea. Cause when I had Cassian Ovis on here who did Dallas buyers club and a bunch of others, like really cool movies. And like, you know, he's, he's an a level producer and I, and like, how the hell did you get him to agree to do your podcast? And,

And I go, I have no idea. I just, it was just kind of, you know, it happened. And it's just, you know, one of those things. And that's how it happened. You know, it just, I've just been very good at networking. And that's how I sort of been able to get all these awesome people like yourself back on the podcast. Thank you. And I was going to say, episode 148 and 149, I highly recommend. 148 was Michael G. Kehoe. How do you say his name? That's it. Michael G. Kehoe.

Yeah, he directed Alice the Hatred. And then in 149, Dan Mirvish, the director of the Slamdance Festival. If you want to hear a lot of amazing stories and learn a lot about people who are getting things done, getting films done and moving things in the industry like that, I love those two episodes. They're both fantastic. Yeah, and Dan Mirvish, everyone was always asking... When his episode came out, people were like...

wait a minute did you have an axe murderer or something on your podcast I said no no no he worked with an axe murderer guys come on get it right that was a fascinating story even involving Johnny Depp at one point so yeah I love that story

So bizarre. Yeah, seriously, how Johnny Depp got ended up being connected to this axe murderer from this college. It's like, what the hell? It's such a weird, weird story, but it's all true. And because I looked up the story after the podcast and I was like, holy crap. I was like, this is a 100% real true story, you know, and it's just, it's unbelievable. And...

But again, I've been very fortunate to have a lot of really cool people on the podcast, again, like yourself, Matt. And as we were talking about everything, from pro wrestling to filmmaking to your latest film, The Trade, and you're going to Pitchfest, which I wish you the best of luck. So, I mean, we've been talking for roughly about an hour, maybe hour and 10 minutes. So just in closing, Matt, is there anything that we get a chance to talk about that maybe you want to talk about right now or just any sort of parting thoughts that you'd like to say to put a period at the end of this whole conversation? Yeah.

Well, I just, I think there's a tremendous film education coming through here on your podcast. So I want to, I want to thank you for that. You know, I'm like you and a lot of people on your bike. I mean, you get some really high profile people, but we're all just trying to figure out this, this film industry thing and crack the code. But, but you know yeah, I'm,

in a season of transition right now so i don't know exactly what's next but i'm gonna try my hand at la and you know see how it goes but but uh uh you know thank you for helping me promote the trade and what i'm doing and uh you know yeah i just i look forward to keeping in touch with you and i definitely will

Yeah, and please do, Matt. And, you know, I'm going to make sure... By the way, I was going to ask about your social media, and I know you're not on, like, Twitter or anything like that. I wanted just to say really quickly to Matt, do you know that there's a person out there that actually has a Twitter account that's pretending to be you, and they're tweeting at other wrestlers that are obviously fake accounts? So, like...

Nick Mondo like they have a Nick Mondo account that's called, you know unscarred Mondo and he's tweeting at some guy Who's supposed to be CM Punk and they're going back and forth with each other? But it's just like I don't know why they would don't be doing this but It just I got a laugh out of that because I actually was gonna tweet at you one time and I saw I saw that account But wait, that's not that's not mad. What the hell is that? It's I think I need to get a Twitter account going

This has happened before. I've had to shut people down. I've gotten notifications. Last year, two people I had to shut down on Twitter. It's happened on Facebook. Right now, since I moved back to the States, I got a new iPhone. I was traveling, and I got blocked out of my Facebook account, and I currently am, and that's where I promote everything. But

I think I need to get on either Twitter or Instagram or both, but like, I'm not letting go of this account thing yet. Like I'm, I'm going to see what needs to happen to get it back. But like, I've tried everything right now, but, but that's the bizarre world, world of social media. This has happened to me at least, at least 10 times over the years where I have to go and shut down somebody who's pretending to be me, which I don't understand why somebody would want to do that. But,

yeah thanks for letting me know I'm gonna have to look at Twitter again it sounds like I'm sorry Matt to be a bear to bear news like that I'm sorry I saw that I was like whoa Mondo I was like wait that's not him but honestly Matt if you ever if you ever do get a Twitter or Instagram I'm on both and I'd be glad to give you some shout outs and stuff like that and I'll even you know I'll encourage everyone to follow you and because I honestly

You're such an interesting guy. And I'm so glad we could actually finally do this interview and finally meet up and share all these stories about pro wrestling and everything else. It's just been a very fun trip down memory lane. If I could, Max, I know you have to run. I know you've got 10,000 things going on. I remember one time a group of friends and I went to CZW. And this is, again, a champ soccer arena in Seoul, New Jersey. And this very...

prissy, very uppity girl went with us who was a girlfriend of this guy.

And she goes, she sits down and she goes, I feel like I'm going to be stabbed at any moment in this place. And I said, yeah, there's a good chance. It was just, and everyone around, like everyone around laughed because they could just see that this girl was so out of her element. And it was just, it was just a funny, a funny little anecdote. But it's been so fun talking to you, Matt.

going down memory lane. Is there any links that you'd like to send anybody to? Do you have an official website you'd like to send everyone to?

I'll just, I'll give you the links to the two trailers for my film. The other one we just, we just launched. And so that, that's what I'd like to spread the word on right now. And, um, I, like I say, I think very shortly, I'm just going to have to hop on Twitter and Instagram and, and hopefully get this Facebook thing resolved. But, but yeah, thank you so much. Um, and I was just going to say like most people, I either separate, um, or need to separate if I'm doing these interviews into either the wrestling half or the film half. And so that's,

That's pretty unique, getting to talk to you and mix both. I think that's really cool, just the common trajectory, if you will, that we've been on. Let's do it again, man.

Yeah, and there is a lot of storytelling involved in professional wrestling. And I know, I mean, I haven't watched wrestling in years, but I know there is a storytelling aspect that, you know, I feel is lost in current day wrestling. But that's a whole other story, Matt. You know, I would love to have you back on. Anytime you'd like to come back on, you want to talk about even your experience at Pitchfest or anything you'd like to talk about, you know, always feel free. Everyone listening, it's DaveBullis.com. Twitter, it's at Dave underscore Bullis.

And I want to say thank you, everybody, for listening. And thank you, Matt, for coming on, my friend. Dave, thank you. I will be listening in the future. I'm a fan. Hey, I appreciate it, my friend. And our paths are going to cross again because they always seem to, right?

Hopefully not in a wrestling ring though, right? That's where this is going to end. In somebody's backyard, you know? Exactly. It can't be like at WrestleMania in a cage like Bundy and Hogan. It's got to be in the backyard in the middle of nowhere in Birdsboro, you versus me on like a film camera on a pole match.

I'm going to be ping pong Mondo. That person that calls me ping pong is out in the street. Oh, man. I tell you, Bundy is a hell of a guy. It's just the funny stories about him, man. I love it. Ping pong Mondo. So, Matt, again, best of luck in Pitchfest. Best of luck in L.A., dude. I'll talk to you very soon.

Peace, buddy. Thanks again. I'll talk to you soon.

I want to thank Dave so much for doing such a great job on this episode. If you want to get links to anything we spoke about in this episode, head over to the show notes at indiefilmhustle.com forward slash 787. And if you haven't already, please head over to filmmakingpodcast.com, subscribe and leave a good review for the show. It really helps us out a lot, guys. Thank you again so much for listening, guys. As always, keep that hustle going, keep that dream alive. Stay safe out there, and I'll talk to you soon.

Thanks for listening to the Indie Film Hustle podcast at IndieFilmHustle.com. That's I-N-D-I-E-F-I-L-M-H-U-S-T-L-E.com.