China is boldly going where no one has gone before
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Download the Instacart app and get delivery in as fast as 30 minutes. Plus, enjoy free delivery on your first three orders. Service fees and terms apply. You're listening to a podcast from the South China Morning Post. Interplanetary space travel, drugs generated by artificial intelligence, hypersonic aircraft traveling at more than five times the speed of sound.

You might have seen these sorts of futuristic developments in films created with fancy computer-generated images. Or maybe you read about them in sci-fi books. But in China, scientists are turning science fiction into science fact. This is Inside China. I'm Jasmine Tse.

To discuss China's scientific accomplishments, I sat down with our science editor, Stephen Chen, and our science reporter, Holly Chick. Can they build it? We don't know. But judging from what we have seen over the last 20 years, the chance is not low. The chance is not low. And no, China doesn't have a starship named Enterprise. But they are definitely boldly going where no one has gone before. Ready for warp, sir. Let's punch it.

Stephen and Holly, it's great to have you both on the mic. Stephen, let me start with you. You've written a lot about China's technological developments, particularly in the military industry.

And your articles often start with engineers say they are building something or scientists claim that they are developing something. But how often do these projects actually end up being used by the Chinese military? I can give you one example. You know, I've been covering science for the SMP for a long time. I started almost 15, 16, 17 years ago.

And have you heard about a nuclear reactor for spaceship for long distance interplanetary space travel? It sounds like a science fiction, right? About three or four years ago when I first heard about this, I was like, this is not going to happen. This kind of project must not be realistic because they are trying to build a very large reactor, one megawatt.

And it's seven times more powerful than what was being developed by NASA. And China has not put any nuclear space reactors in space before. So to me, it looks like a step that is too big. But the source is very solid. So we did a story anyways. And now I think last month, there was a paper coming out and they built a prototype. So in just a few years, it came from China.

paper to something solid that you can see it you know it's occupied an entire room very impressive device it is not in space yet but they will build a prototype they tested its working mechanism which was unique it was completely different from what was being adopted by nasa

Because to make a nuclear reactor work in space is a completely different business from what's happening here on Earth. All the components need to be lightweighted, and they need to operate for more than a decade without any human intervention. And it needs to be very durable, and it can resist strong radiation from space.

And the energy conversion efficiency must be very high. At the same time, because nuclear reactors can generate a lot of heat, they need to get rid of the excessive heat as efficiently, as quickly as possible. Otherwise, they can have a meltdown of the nuclear reactor. So the entire project is extremely challenging and sophisticated. And that's why NASA started with building a relatively low-power nuclear reactor

for the Artemis program on the moon. But China, if they started it, they said, well, we want to go with one megawatt. The reason is that it was not just for the moon, but they are aiming for the Mars. And to drive a spaceship from the Earth to Mars, you need a reactor that can provide enough thrust. One, two, three.

So I think that can answer, you know, part of your question. When we came across something that looks very distant from now, can the scientists really make it? Can the engineers really bring it to life? That's an open question to all of these science projects in China, in the US, in Europe, anywhere, right? The scientists, they all started with something like crazy. But step by step, they bring it from dream to reality.

Another example is also related to the nuclear technology. It's the molten solar reactor that uses thorium as fuel.

It is not using uranium, but thorium. Thorium is a material for nuclear fission, which is much more abundant than uranium on Earth, especially in China. China does not have much uranium. This kind of reactor does not need water for cooling, and it can be built in a very small size. In fact, during the Cold War, the United States even wanted to put it on an airplane.

to build an atomic-powered bomber that can fly around the Earth for many, many days, even for months, without refilling. So this kind of thorium molten salt reactor, it was quite challenging to build because the salt can cause very severe erosion on the pipelines in the machine. And so after some very heroic efforts, the U.S. researchers, they gave up. They said it's not economical anymore.

Although there are some different opinions, some said, well, it was a huge success. It was just because the government and the military, they stopped funding it, that the project was canceled in the U.S. But anyways, it was dead in the U.S. So about 20 years ago, I think, China started to think, well, if we need to build reactors in the Gobi Desert or if we bring it on ships...

Can we have a better option other than the uranium reactor that we have today? So a bunch of scientists in Shanghai, they started this very ambitious project. The first thing I saw was a paper, just a blueprint. We don't know whether they are going to make it. But over the years, we have seen...

Steady progress. First of all, they built up a prototype, right? And then they got the government's approval to build one. And then a few years later, they finally got the green light from different agencies and did a groundbreaking in the Gobi Desert in Gansu province. And the building process was not easy either. There were a lot of incidents. But in the end,

They built it and it's now up and running. Although the project has not been officially announced because for reasons that, well, we don't fully know. You know, we talk about military applications before of this technology. So they may want to keep it

As quiet as possible. But according to very reliable sources of information, including official documents on the Chinese nuclear authorities' website, the testing has already started. We can say this machine is already up and running.

And a few months ago, we saw Chinese shipbuilding company, one of the largest one in China, they announced a blueprint for a nuclear power cargo ship that use this kind of reactor. Again, this is just a design. It's on paper. Not any other countries has built such a ship or even developed.

propose such a design. Can they build it in the end, you know, in 10 years or maybe in five years? Can we see this project get started in a shipyard? We don't know. But judging from what we have seen over the last 20 years, the chance is not low. The chance is not low.

Have you ever seen these projects in action? I can give you another example about hypersonic weapons. You know, it's a buzzword nowadays. But when we started it more than 10 years ago at the SCMP, what we saw in the beginning was just a piece of paper. Some scientists said, well, if we do this, we can bring the speed of aircraft in atmosphere to speed beyond Mach 5, five times the speed of sound.

And the U.S. did a lot of experiments. They were the absolute leader in the field. But when China started it, NASA has more or less given up.

One hypothesis is that after the collapse of the Soviet Union, the United States does not see the urgency in developing this kind of technology because they already have the world's most powerful military and they have stealth bombers. They don't need to take missiles or aircrafts to such an extreme speed in the atmosphere, although they have tried.

And the experiments have provided a lot of very valuable reference to scientists in China and in other countries. But still, it slowed down a bit. We've been ordered to stand down. They're scrapping the program. They say we fell short. The contract threshold is Mach 10. Mach 10 is supposed to be in two months.

Today's test point is Mach 9. Well, that's not good enough. When it started in China, I still remember when I asked some experts, you know, do you think they're going to make it? The answer that I got were mostly like, no, it's impossible. Why? Because we don't have the material.

to withstand the heat that would be generated when you are going at such a high speed in the atmosphere. It's like, it can up to 3,000 degrees Celsius. They said, well, there's no material that can withstand this kind of heat and pressure for a long time. To make a hypersonic missile to fly a long distance in the atmosphere at such a high speed was a science fiction.

But now, if you're asking me whether I have seen a hypersonic weapon in action, I can say both yes and no. Because I base most of my time in Beijing, and even in Beijing, I've seen China tested some of its new hypersonic vehicles. We could see this in the night sky, this kind of very strange curves made by these vehicles. We have never been invited to

to any kind of this test, of course, because it's so far the hypersonic technology remains mostly in military applications and these projects are mostly classified. Still, I think most of people nowadays would agree that these kind of weapons are now a reality. We have seen it on China's military parade. We have seen Russia using it in real battle. And the US have been testing this kind of weapon as well. So,

This kind of technology which had been regarded science fiction in the past, more and more of them are now becoming a reality. Do you have a number or a percentage as to how many of these projects in China actually succeed from being a design on paper to becoming reality? I would say the percentage may not be very high. Most of the great ideas of the scientists are

They remain either on the paper or in a laboratory. I can give you some examples. I think about eight or seven years ago, they proposed this deep sea space station, a very large structure that can support human beings' extensive stay in water several thousand meters under the surface. We have seen models, right? We have seen it on paper, the design. In fact, I have written several stories about it, but so far,

I have not seen anything getting materialized. There could be many reasons behind this. Maybe it's too costly. Maybe the technology is too complicated. Maybe it's because of the diplomatic tensions in the South China Sea. China did not want to put this kind of very sensitive facility in the ocean. Or maybe China has built one and then deployed it, but it has kept it totally secret.

We don't know. But so far, we do not see any concrete evidence that China has built this kind of facility. So yes, it's not always the case that these projects can come to life.

Thank you for sharing that. Holly, let me turn to you. AI has been the talk of town since the launch of OpenAI's ChatGPT. We've made several podcasts together about that, but you've also been reporting on how China has been using AI for research and experiments other than large language models.

Can you tell us how are Chinese scientists utilizing AI? Yeah, Jasmine, I remember last year when we were talking about AI, it's all about chat GPT and generative AI. And also like how our jobs would be at risk. Are we going to be all replaced by AI? But

I mean, it's been a year and we're still here talking. So it seems that AI brings a lot of opportunities for us and for scientists as well. So one of the stories that actually caught my eye last year was that a group of scientists in China developed an AI chemist that can create catalysts for oxygen production on Mars from meteorites on the Red Planet. And

The cool thing about this is that for humans to do that, it could take around like 2000 years for them to screen more than like 3 million samples or possibilities. But then AI did it in just two months. So we could see how fast this is, right? For AI to be actually helping us in what...

Terminator is out there.

It doesn't feel pity or remorse or fear. And it absolutely will not stop. Ever. Another very cool thing in Hong Kong, actually, is that a team of scientists created an AI algorithm that can design dental crowns. So, you know, our teeth sometimes break because of injuries. Maybe, you know, when you're playing basketball.

And somebody hits you.

So AI could actually design a personalized dental crown for you in around like three seconds, but then it would take around like 15 to 20 minutes for a human designer to do that. So again, another example of AI could speed up our work and help us in our daily lives. Well, I mean, Mars might be a little far away from us, but for like teeth and pharmaceutical industries, there are lots of implications and applications.

There's also a very cool study in China by a team from Zhejiang University that studies how humans listen to sounds. So basically, they found that we separate sound into two tracks. One is the direct speech and the other one is the echo. So when we're in a very spacious room, or maybe when we're in a Zoom meeting, or

Although there is a lot of echo, we don't really get affected by that. We can still kind of tell, okay, this is the echo, so we could hear speech pretty clearly. And by figuring out how human brains do that, scientists would like to improve how AI actually listen to us talk as well. So that way, AI speech recognition and transcript production could be improved.

Improved transcripts would also be really helpful for us journalists.

Holly, you're also very attuned to the latest projects in China regarding climate change. I know it's a very big topic, but what are some of the biggest concerns among China's scientific community when it comes to climate change? And what kind of work is being done to address those concerns? You know, we were talking about AI, and there is actually a very new paper on how Chinese scientists are using AI to tackle this issue as well.

So there are a lot of renewable energies. And I think one of the greatest concerns for scientists now is that they need to improve the efficiency and cost effectiveness of these clean energy sources.

And a team from Tsinghua University actually just published a paper on an AI model that can help find the best places to deploy double-phased solar panels. So there are solar panels that only have one side.

And there are also new ones with both sides generating power. And with the AI model, scientists can now look at the Earth and say, hey, this is the best box to deploy double-sided solar panels because of a certain type of sun radiation that could also reach the backside of a solar panel. So it is all about improving renewable energy production and energy.

From there, you know, cut carbon emissions and hopefully slow down the effects on the climate. So science doesn't really exist without creativity. Only those who think outside of the box are able to come up with new inventions and new solutions.

That being said, what have been some of the most creative, most innovative experiments or projects in China that you both have reported on? Stephen, let me start with you. Well, personally, I would opt for the use of AI to fight corruption. Although the use of this technology is a bit controversial. When China started it from some small cities in the beginning, the officials were like, no, it's off-limits.

The way they are doing this is not that the officials can feel the existence of AI in any ways. And that's what makes them uncomfortable. The AI is invisible. But it's so powerful. It can automatically monitor all the government-related databases, including personal information of these officials. So if the high school classmate of a senior official

in a county government, won a bet in government contracts. Then the AI could identify this possible connection between this official and his high school classmate.

And they may also check into other databases such as bank transactions and police records or even hotels or whatever. And they could send an alert to anti-graft authorities. And anti-graft authorities can use this alert as a lead to carry out more in-depth investigations.

or give the official a call and come over and we have received this alert and can explain to us whether you are related. So after the implementation of this technology in some Chinese cities, the effect was fabulous.

But in some cities, the project was canceled because there was a huge amount of resistance. The original plan is that if it works at the lower level of the government, they will bring it to provincial level or even the national level. At the moment, I think the project is still going on. When did they start implementing AI in corruption cases? I think seven or eight years ago. Yeah. At that time, AI was still pretty weak.

If you consider what we can do with the large language models nowadays, some of the technological bottlenecks back then could be solved easily. But I can say with certainty that the Chinese government is using AI in its daily work. And there's a hotline called 12345, in fact, in every Chinese city. And it is partly assisted by AI. If you have run into any problem, like...

your building got the unstable power supply or you heard some unusual noise in your lift, you can pick up the phone and call it.

And this system is assisted by the AI. And the AI will ensure not a single call will be missed. And they need to guarantee there's a response by a local official to every call made by the citizen. I mean, we cover science, right? We don't do politics. But to me, this is a different kind of

democracy, AI-assisted democracy, to get our voice heard. There's a mechanism there. We can get an almost instant response from the government. So the technology is really changing how we view the society, how we run the society. And it's even changing some of our long-held cherished beliefs. Can this bring unexpected problems? Definitely.

Definitely. It can make a mistake. We have heard, right, the computer made a mistake and classified someone as a fugitive. And then that person ran into some big trouble and knew nothing about it. So if AI makes any mistakes, it could cause a lot of problems.

Personally, I think the chain is unstoppable because this is how our society is heading. If we resist this, we may not end up in a better situation. But how to adjust, how to find a balance between the privacy and the efficiency and justice of the society, it's what every one of us need to think of. You want to protect the world, but you don't want it to change.

How is humanity saved if it's not allowed to evolve?

And Holly, what about you? Well, Jasmine, I totally agree with you that we need creativity in science. And we also need curiosity and talents in science. So there is a very interesting institute in Shenzhen that nurtures the next generation of scientists. And their students, as young as like 14, are challenged with questions like, what should humans do on Mars?

And it is all about how we get there, how we stay long-term there, and...

you know, how do we make a sustainable life there, right? So these students, they put up very impressive projects about new ways to build unmanned aircrafts, rovers, robots, and 3D printing for Mars-based constructions, and obviously creating food and energy and other resources that is needed to sustain life on Mars. And

I think through this example, what we can see is when we ask young people in the country some basic science questions, they may seem very broad, but then they could actually look into the question in a very critical way and figure out things that we need to do step by step.

And I think, you know, when we talk about new inventions and solutions, China is really trying to make sure that we have good scientists and young scientists who can support the country's science development in the future. ♪

And this is actually in line with what the Chinese president Xi Jinping said the country should do. And well, last year he actually said China should upgrade its education system to achieve greater science and tech self-reliance.

And this is on the basis that China has already made nurturing science and technology talent a major policy. And in higher education, the president said the priority should be to speed up the development of world-class universities. So fostering basic research and cross-discipline research so that China could become a great power in science. That was Stephen Chen and Holly Chick. You can read their articles at scmp.com.

I'm Jasmine Tse. Thanks for listening.

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