Kavita Puri and Sathnam Sanghera on War, Empire and the Untold Story of the Bengal Famine (Part One)
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Hello, Intelligence Squared members. I'm producer Mia Sorrenti. Today's members episode is the full recording of our recent event with Kavita Puri and Satnam Sanghera discussing war, empire and the untold stories of the Bengal famine.

Kavita Puri is an award-winning journalist, broadcaster and author of the critically acclaimed Partition Voices, based on her BBC Radio 4 series by the same name. She's also the creator, writer and presenter of Three Million on BBC Sounds, which was named a Podcast of the Year in The Times, Guardian and This Week. The series won many awards, including gold for Best New Podcast at the British Podcast Awards in 2024. And in the same year, Puri was a finalist for the Orwell Prize for Journalism.

She was joined in conversation by Satnam Samghera, the award-winning author of Empireland and Empire World. The Bengal Famine is the forgotten story of the Second World War.

Between 1943 and 1944, at least 3 million Indians, all of whom were British subjects, died from starvation or diseases linked to malnutrition. It is one of the darkest chapters in colonial history. Yet the memory of those millions who perished is broadly not known in Britain, India or Bangladesh. There is no memorial, museum or archive dedicated to them anywhere in the world, not even a plaque.

Drawing on the themes of her hit podcast 3 Million, Kavita spoke to Satnam about uncovering this tragic chapter of British and Indian history, tying together a complex story of British colonialism, Indian nationalism, global war, and the end of empire. This episode is coming to you in two parts.

If you want to listen to the live recording in full and ad-free, why not consider becoming an Intelligence Squared Premium subscriber? You can head to intelligencesquared.com forward slash membership to find out more or hit the IQ2X button on Apple. Now let's join our host, Saddam Samgera, with more. Hello. I'm not reading out your biography because I always feel like when people do that, it's like hearing your own obituary. But Kavita Puri, award-winning broadcaster,

I don't know what else to say. I mean, that's pretty good, right? It's okay? That's enough, isn't it? You probably all listen to her podcast, right? A few people, anyway. Yes, I do wonder why people, I know, it's your idea of a good time to come out to listen to an event about a famine. Anyway, should we get the basics, first of all? Why did you decide to dedicate years of your life to this subject?

Um, probably not years, but we will, I will be by the time I finish writing the book. I, like you, and probably lots of people in this room didn't learn about the Bengal famine, but, or even empire when I was growing up. Out of interest, did anybody learn about the Bengal famine at school? Oh, you did. I'd say that's about 2% of people. Yeah, but I'm still, I'm still surprised. Not even. North of England. Yeah.

Not in England. Oh, yeah, of course. Ah, okay. That makes sense. And I was interviewing somebody about something completely different about the partition of India. And she was a British colonial woman. And she was telling me about her childhood growing up in Kolkata. And she said, I remember seeing vultures eating dead bodies on the street. And I remember thinking...

What is she talking about? I had no idea. And so afterwards, I carried on talking to her about what happened a couple of years later with partitioning in Bengal. And I went back and I looked it up. And I was shocked that three, an estimated three million people had died who were British subjects in the middle of the Second World War. And I had never heard about it. And

This isn't a footnote. This is pretty huge. And I wanted to see if I could, around the 80th anniversary, try and piece together who these people were and why they died. Because...

3 million is one of the largest losses of civilian life on the Allied side. And there isn't a memorial, there isn't a museum, there isn't even a little plaque anywhere in the world to those 3 million people. And so as well as trying to understand

what happened and who these people were. I was really interested in knowing what was it about the remembrance of this event that is so painful to touch in Britain, but also in India and Bangladesh, because it is toxic. If you put those two words, Bengal famine, into social media, it's just, you know, it's a very odd thing that

People don't know about it. But if you do know about it, you've got really, really strong opinions. Because in Britain, it's touching our war story. It's touching the heroes of our war story, like Winston Churchill. And it's one of the darkest chapters in colonial history. And we don't really talk about empire much. But it was really interesting to me that in India and Bangladesh...

It is seen through the prism of Churchill, but there is no memorial to these three million people. So how can three million people just disappear like that? So I was trying to kind of remember these people because it's really weird when you look in the archives. I was at the BBC at the time. I think there'd been one half hour documentary on the radio made about it.

How is that? When was that documentary? It was made by Michael Portillo. All right. Did he mention the railways? Was he wearing red trousers? I don't know. It was the radio. He did quite a good job on the causes and all of that. But it's like...

How could that be? To be honest, I knew nothing about it. All of my knowledge has come via you. And I think part of my confusion is that there was another very famous Bengal famine 300 years earlier. 1772. Associated with Clive of India. Yeah, exactly. And, you know... But there have been many famines. Our audience who learnt...

about the famine in school in India. Tens of millions of people died during the British presence and colonial rule because of famines. The 1943 famine was just the last famine. So I think Indians certainly, and this was a kind of, I didn't know this, associate hunger and famine with colonialism. Yeah.

I remember talking to you before you made your amazing podcast series. It's not fair to really call it a podcast series because it's broadcast too, wasn't it? It's now eight parts, right? Yes. I remember talking to you about a year ago, maybe 18 months ago, and you were shit scared. I was scared. You were scared. Yeah. And...

It didn't help that I didn't know what the Bengal famine was. But I was trying at the time to understand why you were, but I was also scared because I had a book, second book coming out about empire and I know how it goes. Why were you scared in particular about this subject? Well, I was scared because every time I mentioned it to people who knew about it, they were like, oh my God, do you know what you're doing? And I said, well, I kind of think I do. And they said, are you sure you want to do it? And...

The reason why it's so toxic is because of Winston Churchill and people have really, really strong views. And our national story is based on the war and Winston Churchill. He is the embodiment- - A bit of Henry VIII. - Okay, a little bit of Henry VIII. And so you can't talk about this story without talking about Churchill and questioning his actions.

And also, it's reflective of our own war story. This year, we'll see the 80th anniversary of VE Day and VJ Day. I can absolutely assure you they won't be mentioning 3 million British subjects who died because of the war in India.

And so I was touching something extremely hallowed, but I also knew that whatever I did was going to get attacked on both sides. You know, too much Churchill, not enough Churchill. And people are not polite about this. I mean, you know, you get a lot of crap on social media and

I was really prepared. I was prepared for it and I did get some, but I approached the podcast a bit like a book. So I kind of footnoted every single thing I said and I didn't go into it trying to please everybody 'cause you can't please everybody.

But I knew that if I was attacked, then I could defend myself. But no, I was really scared and I didn't sleep, you know, in the run up to it very much. I was calling you for advice, I think.

I'm the last person you should call for advice. I can't actually remember what you said to me. I think you said I've got your back. I don't know what that means. I probably said that everything's a phase and eventually it's over. Yeah, I think you probably said that. Anyway, in a way, I think anxiety can be really useful academically because it means you're very, very careful and it shows in your work. But that doesn't mean that it's...

It's also very listenable too. And also, I think your worries about it, your vocal about them on the podcast. So it comes across in a very human way. Before we get on to what happened, should we just explain the basics? Because I'll be honest, part of the reason I've struggled to understand it is that I've never understood where Bengal is exactly. I know because there's Bangladesh.

And there's Bengal. Yeah. So if you think of the map of India, in the east is Bengal. And in undivided India, under British India, it shared a border with Burma.

And that's quite important because what happens in Burma in 1942 has a direct result on the psychology of the colonial government, but also what happens with the rice supply. And rice is something we'll probably be hearing a lot about because it's the staple food in Bengal. But after partition, Bengal is one of the provinces that's divided. And so East Bengal becomes Bangladesh and West Bengal is part of India.

Is that all right? Yes. And the people who live in Bangladesh are Bangladeshis. Yes. People in Bengal are Bengalis. So if you're Bangladeshi, you're still Bengali. I don't think people understand. So to be Bengali is to belong to a region. So if you're Bangladeshi, you are Bengali and you speak Bengali, just as if you're West Bengali and you live in India. So during the war...

Why was this part of India important? And what was going on? So, there was a lot going on. Because after Pearl Harbor attack, the Japanese very, very rapidly took Singapore, a British stronghold, and it fell very quickly. It fell by February 1942. Churchill called it the worst military defeat in British military history.

And then they went to Burma and Rangoon fell a month later in March. And then in May, Burma fell. And this was hugely humiliating for the British. But what that meant was that the Japanese were on the border of Bengal, on the border of India, the heart of the British Empire. And

the British were terrified that they were going to attack India next. And so that is kind of setting the scene for what happens next. And what was the impact? Why did food become scarce in that part of the world during World War II? So after Burma falls, that kind of critical rice supply, cheap rice, stops coming into India. But you've got to think about the context of war,

There were huge pressures on the food supply because by early 1942 in Calcutta, there were hundreds of thousands of allied troops. I didn't know this. Did you know that? They were British, of course, but they were American, they were West African, they were Chinese, our allies.

And they needed to be fed. But also in Calcutta were all the people working in the factories for the Asian front, making things like armaments and tents and uniform. And they all needed to be fed as well. And wartime inflation was already really, really high. And so, if you were living in the countryside, which 90% of the population were doing, it was already really difficult to afford to buy rice.

And then you have this kind of catastrophic colonial policy because the British feared that if the Japanese invaded, they would come through the Bengal Delta.

And they thought rather than defend it, they would go in and have effectively a scorched earth policy. So they went in and they'd seen how the Japanese had very quickly moved through Singapore and through Burma by taking bicycles and local food. And so they decided to take surplus rice and all the boats and bicycles and

So that if the Japanese invaded, they wouldn't be able to progress further into India. And it was called the denial policy. They were denying these items from the Japanese. But what that meant catastrophically...

was that fishermen couldn't go to fish. And this was, you know, we're talking about tens of thousands of boats here, fishermen's boats. People lived by the delta. They lived by the water. Farmers couldn't go to their land. Artisans couldn't sell their wares. And critically, rice could no longer be moved around. Yeah.

And you also had a cyclone. Yeah, and actually, just to say before that, so what happened was rice was so scarce, and so the prices shot up, and then you get hoarding, often for profit. So people were making money. And then you have a cyclone. And they weren't necessarily British, they were Indians. No, no, they were Indians, yeah. It's really important to say they were Indians. And then you have this cyclone, devastating cyclone, that happens in the main rice-producing regions

provinces of Bengal. And so it literally is a perfect storm.

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Before we get into what happens then, should we talk about some of the characters and how they responded? So food is scarce. Let's go through five people who aren't Churchill because we're getting to Churchill. First of all, John Herbert. He's really interesting because you interview his granddaughter, I think, in your seventh episode. What did he do? He was the governor. So John Herbert was the governor of Bengal. He was the most important colonial figure in Bengal. He'd been an MP in Monmouthshire.

So completely unqualified to be in India. Very similar parts of the world. I actually know nothing about Monmouthshire either. Well, don't worry. He didn't know anything about Bengal, so...

And they'd been desperately trying to find a governor. And, you know, it was just before 1939, they couldn't find anyone. And so it ends up that John Herbert, the NMP from Monmouthshire, becomes governor of Bengal. And, you know, in those days, the governors were like monarchs. If you see them in their regalia, they look kind of...

quite extraordinary. He was the one who presided over how denial was carried out. But actually, by the time he got there, people like Viceroy Linlithgow, people like the Secretary of State for India in London, Leo Amory, they didn't think that much of him. He didn't get on with the local Indian government.

He wasn't a particularly impressive character. And so when this kind of catastrophe was happening in terms of food and you had fear of a Japanese invasion,

He wasn't really the guy that you'd want to turn to. So you mentioned the two viceroys there during this period. Should we go through... They're very contrasting characters. Should we begin with Wavell? I think we should begin with Lin Lithgow because he comes first. So Lin Lithgow, again, is not a particularly impressive character. And he wasn't that...

He was worried about the food situation, but really only because of what that meant for the war effort. And so his priority was making sure that the soldiers were fed and the people in the factories were fed, even if that meant...

that the countryside where all these kind of people who were just about struggling to live, that the rice was being taken from where they were to feed the people in the cities, particularly Calcutta. He does alert London in 1942 to say that there is a food crisis happening.

But he doesn't say that it's in Bengal. But over the next six months, he is worried, again, because of the war effort. And by August, I think, 1943, he is saying to the war cabinet, you need to send wind ports. This is a really dangerous situation. There are famine conditions.

And what about Wavell? When does he come in? So Wavell is kind of later on in the story. He kind of takes over in October and he is really instrumental in sorting out the relief efforts. We'll get to that. We'll get to that, yeah. Let's talk about Churchill then. Because often when the Bengal famine, the only time I'd ever listened to a podcast on this subject before yours was Malcolm Gladwell's podcast,

And he told the story almost entirely through the prism of Churchill and his friend. What does Churchill do and why is he a villain in some people's eyes? I think London is told at the end of August that there is a food crisis.

And they say, look, we're really busy. There's a war on. We can send a bit of stuff. I think we can send some stuff to the northwest, but we're not going to send anything to Bengal right now. Actually, could Bengal export a bit more rice to help with the war effort, which is not very helpful. And then by early 1943, there are more requests coming from the viceroy.

Churchill says that Indians are not the only people starving. There is a war on, and actually the UK import, it's really important that we keep getting food into Britain so we cannot divert ships at this point. But I think that the reason that Churchill is really controversial happens when famine is in its epicenter, which is the summer of 1943.

And it's clear then to the war cabinet that there are famine conditions. And he says, along with his war cabinet, we can't send what you're asking us at this point. But actually, it's the other figures that talk about what he says and how he describes Indians, which was racist. And that people at the time, people like Leo Amory, the Secretary of State, people like Wavell, who becomes viceroy,

say he's racist. He would say things like, you know, starving Greeks are more important than underfed Bengalis. You know, it's kind of well documented. But I think for me, the crucial question is this, could he have released more shipping? And that's, you know, it was the middle of the war. There were huge kind of

strains on shipping. Everything was all about getting ships from one place to another in terms of food, in terms of people, in terms of weaponry. And, you know, in that summer of 1943, they were about to launch an invasion into Italy. But the really kind of crucial question with Churchill was, did his racism affect whether he would help with those requests of food or

or deny them. And I think that is the kind of the moot point really. And if you're Indian, many people will say he could have done more. He should have done more. If you talk to some kind of right-wing historians here, they would say there was a war on what more could he do. So I think that's really the crux of it. But the bottom line is,

Three million Indians died. Did they have to die? Were they just collateral damage? And as some people, because these things were controversial once people knew what famine was, said, and these were people in the British Parliament, these were members of Parliament, said if this was happening in Britain, would British people have been treated like that? Yeah, I mean, you're saying something

true and complex, but for some reason the British psyche can't handle this, you know, because you've got Churchill who's saving liberal democracy. He's defeating the evil racist Germans, but also he's racist even by the standards of his time. Even his colleagues are frequently outraged by the stuff he says. Why have we as a, do you think our feelings about Churchill are one of the reasons that

We've really struggled to understand the Bengal famine. I think the Bengal famine is an incredibly complex subject. I think three million people dying is not something that is that complex. I think that we don't want to talk about, we don't talk about empire, as you well know. It's really kind of a difficult bit in the narrative of our World War II story. And

you know, so much of who we are today is based on what we did in the Second World War. And what happened in Bengal was totally catastrophic. So I think it's that it's our war story. It's who we are. But I also think

Yeah, I think Churchill is a real impediment to it. But Churchill was really smart. He knew what he was doing because when he wrote the history of the war from his perspective, his six-volume autobiography, he doesn't mention the Bengal famine once. And there were numerous war cabinet discussions about it. He doesn't even mention...

The Famine Commission inquiry, which comes out on the day of VE Day to make sure that, you know, it's buried. He famously uttered that line about, I intend to be in control of history. I intend to write it. And for many, many years he was. I mean, I interviewed Max Hastings. Max Hastings, who's written so many books on the Second World War. And he told me he hadn't even heard of the Bengal famine until 2000.

That's amazing. Yeah, it is amazing. But actually, in a way, what we've been talking about, we haven't actually got to the heart and the power of why your work has won so many awards and why it resonates in that it focuses on the testimonies of ordinary people who lived through this, survived, died, their descendants and so on. How did you go about...

finding their voices and begin to kind of tell their story? So I think with a number like three million, it's such a huge number. It can just kind of wash over you. It's so overwhelming. But the reason I decided to approach this subject through first person testimony is because I think it's too much to ask the question, was Churchill responsible? And actually, I don't want to ask that question.

But I think that if you hear these stories of people and what they went through, you can feel something. You can empathize. You can imagine what it's like to be a mother and not be able to feed your child. Or you can imagine what it's like to observe this and how that must affect you. And so I wanted people to have that emotional response to this and not just hear all these kind of complex stories.

you know, factors and inflation because that doesn't do it, I think. And what you realize when you interview people, and I was looking to speak to eyewitnesses as well as survivors, and eyewitnesses obviously didn't live through the famine, survivors did. And when you interview people,

So many years on. And they're so old now. You know, if I'm asking them about the Bengal famine 80 years on, they must be, I think the youngest person I interviewed was six. They remember everything. You know, they haven't forgotten. It's such a kind of traumatic event for them. They have this absolute clarity. And when you speak to them, they look like a child again because they're remembering everything.

just as they were when they were little. And I feel quite bad sometimes asking them, but they want to tell their story. They want it on record because...

There is in the colonial archive, in the official archive, the lived experience of famine is completely absent. And what's really surprising to me, and it's why I think this work is really important, is nobody in India has gathered the testimony of survivors. And so there's this really weird thing that happens. So there is this collective memory that people talk about, which is Fandau, and it means famine.

Give me, can I have, it's how people used to beg, fandau, and it means, can I have the starch water of rice? Because people wouldn't even ask for rice. They didn't think people would give it to them. They asked for the starch water. This is the total dregs. And I think in that memory, it's such a complicated memory because...

is remembered by the onlookers to it. It is not the survivors. And I think in that memory, remembering, hearing people asking for Fandao is a guilt because they saw it and maybe they gave a bit of rice or a bit of the water of rice or they didn't or they turned away. And I think it's a horror.

And it's how people explain what they saw. And it's probably important to say that the famine began in the countryside.

But what happened was because people couldn't afford rice and there was no longer rice, they came in their thousands and thousands to cities like Calcutta, but other cities in Bengal. And so you had on the streets of Calcutta where people had loads of money and loads of food and the Allied soldiers were living it up. And, you know, people going to their clubs and going to jazz clubs and

At the same time, there were people who were literally dying on the streets. And these weren't people who were beggars or even knew how to beg. These were fishermen and artisans and agricultural workers. And so it's kind of total tale of two cities. And so people remember those stories if you were the onlookers. But I had to go into the countryside to speak to the survivors. But I also went into the archive because...

It's 80 years on. There's only so many people who can talk to me about this now. And going into the archives is actually quite hard because, you know, no one labels things Bengal famine because it's not deemed worthy to kind of archive in that way. So you have to filter through lots of World War II kind of American soldiers testimony or look for...

people talking about testimonies or finding testimonies in quite unusual places. So it takes quite a lot of investigative work to put all those kind of that patchwork together. It's very powerful and actually sometimes very difficult to listen to. I mean, in your last episode where you go to India, you know, you're talking about talking to people. Actually, you're talking to a woman who's very elderly.

And it's her relatives who tell you the true story about how she saw people...

Looking for vomit to eat. They were eating vomit. Yeah, you know, they were desperate That's how hungry they were and that stuff. It's those kind of details It's also harrowing and I know that you've written this book partition voices which is you know, two million people died and appalling atrocities during our partition and now you're looking into another very dark episode in human history Does it affect your mental health?

How did you cope with it? That did. Partition really did. And I had to stop for a bit because I was hearing a lot of awful testimonies. And it was my family story too. So it kind of, it was pretty heavy. The famine, it was heavy. But I found the stress actually of having to, the repercussions or the anticipated repercussions of how it would go down. I found that quite hard. But I also think...

I feel quite happy that if these testimonies are not recorded, then they won't be recorded because 80 years on, that is a vanishing generation, just like our partition survivors now. And so many people that I interviewed for partition have now died. And I'm really talking to people at the end of their days. And I think that perhaps that's why people are ready to talk to me because they're

They feel, even if you're a survivor, you know, you're very modest. You might not be able to read or write. You know that this was a huge event and you want your voice to be part of the historical record. And I think there can be something quite redemptive in history. You know, we're talking about pretty full on things, but...

it is redemptive to reclaim those stories and write them back into the historical archive. Because if you don't have those voices, once they're gone, they are gone. They are gone forever. And so when you're talking about these events that are these massive kind of lived experiences, whether it's partition or the Bengal famine, it's

you have to have those stories in their voices. Otherwise, you're just hearing about the high politics. We would never think of understanding what the Holocaust was without hearing those important Holocaust testimonies. And from my perspective, that's the same with partition, but also the Bengal famine. And so,

I'm doing it in such a small way in collecting these stories, but at least it's better to have them than not to have them. And lots of people say, oh, but oral testimonies, how can you be sure 80 years on that they're true? But it doesn't matter because...

You would not think of recording someone's Holocaust testimony 80 years on. Of course things are imperfect, but you just say that this is what they're telling you 80 years on, and it's better to have than not have. And exactly as Satnam said, people tell you details that you know that they couldn't make up. Like the woman who saw people eating vomit. Who the hell would say that kind of thing? It's a horrible thing to have to say and to have to remember. And so...

you know, and that's why I always say to people, talk to your, interview your grandparents, interview your parents, because it's so precious. Yeah, it's incredibly important work. Thanks for listening to Intelligence Squared. This episode was produced by myself, Mia Sorrenti, and it was edited by Mark Roberts.

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