Susie Dent On the Wonders of the English Language (Part 2)
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Welcome to Intelligence Squared, where great minds meet. I'm producer Leila Ismail. For this episode, we're rejoining for part two of our conversation with Susie Dent, the genius of Countdown's Dictionary Corner.

She was live on stage at Kiln Theatre in London on the 30th of September 2024 for our Intelligence Squared live event discussing her debut mystery novel, Guilty by Definition. Now let's rejoin our host Alex Clark live on stage in conversation with Susie Dent. One of the things that it seemed to me that you're playing with and you mentioned that you use the word decoding is that we...

You get somewhere with our fascination with code. Our fascination, you know, from enigma to... You know, it doesn't have to be words. You're primarily interested in words and their meaning. Yeah. But there is also that whole idea of secret codes and things to which people are not privy. Yes. And that's an incredible part of the power of language, isn't it? Exactly. Exactly right. And so many...

areas of language operate in just that way. Slang being the most obvious example, slang is designed to keep outsiders out and insiders in. And as soon as that is even remotely decoded and authorities or parents, whatever, scale the wall, it has to move on again. So it is the fastest moving area of language. But then you also have...

which are designed to be fairly transparent, but then sometimes you get emojis where you just think, I have no idea how this is being used. And there was originally quite a lot of resentment about emojis because people thought it was replacing...

they were replacing perfectly good words and vocabulary. But then if you look back to hieroglyphs, you know, in the ancient world, they were designed in exactly the same way, albeit with possibly more mystery attached.

So pictorial representations of language are equally fascinating, I think. But that was quite hard to do in a book, actually. So that was an area I couldn't really go down that avenue. It is interesting with emojis, isn't it? Because one of the things that I'm sure I would have been the kind of, you know, come on, kids, please write in actual words. But then you start to realise people are quite creative and often extremely funny with them. They are. There is that thing of not knowing. I mean...

this did happen. I really didn't know what the aubergine meant. No. I mean, I really didn't. And I think I used it in a kind of, are we going to have ratatouille sort of sense. Disabused of that pretty quickly. Yes. But,

It is very creative, isn't it? It is very creative. And then I think there was a ban on some of the sites of the aubergine emoji. So people started writing out aubergine. But actually we have a lovely makeup artist on Countdown whose name I can possibly divulge. But she was on a dating site and she is Persian, loves aubergines, was literally throwing them to every single message. LAUGHTER

And it was only when she said, I don't understand what I'm getting back.

that we were able to tell her. It's incredibly unfair for people who really, really like a moussaka or an aubergine dip or it's just, or a gardener, keen gardener. This is sort of bringing back to again, again off topic, sorry, but I saw somebody asking you a question on a thread on Instagram or Twitter or whatever the other day and I thought, God, that's a good question.

And it was essentially, why words? How is it that we have words rather than perhaps pictures, perhaps grunts? We're so interested in what they mean, but how did they even appear? I know, it is fascinating. Is there an answer to that? I don't know if there's a definitive answer to that. I mean, our earliest...

It's quite complicated because we are looking at ancient languages and trying to look at the connections between all of them. And sometimes these languages are so ancient that we have to reconstruct them. So there is something called Proto-Indo-European PIE to linguists. We don't have any evidence of it, but we can tell if that is at the top of the family tree...

we can see the relationships between words in lots and lots of different languages, from Sanskrit to, you know, to Germanic languages, et cetera. And so we can hypothesise that there was a language that was feeding all of these down. So we've tried to reconstruct it. And they quite reasonably, about five years ago, some linguists...

essentially posited what they thought were the earliest concepts that were given form in language and that was fire unsurprisingly um uh danger was to do with food primarily to do with warmth and to do with um being predated or being a predator which you know unsurprising really but those were some of the first to appear in all of the languages below on the family tree

When it comes to baby talk and the first words that we tend to articulate, they are very much...

Well, words like mum, for example, is very much based on baby talk. So we get a lot of our modern words from the ways that babies articulate what's important to them. So if they're going mum, mum, mum, that gave us mum and so on. So it's very difficult sometimes to know what came first. But why words? It's such a good question.

And I often think that, I often have a slightly out of body experience with laughter. You really see people laughing and you just think, it's a bit, do you remember the smash adverts? The old people here will remember these aliens laughing around. It's a bit like that. I just think it's such an odd thing.

If you catch yourself laughing, you can become quite self-conscious about it because what you're doing is sometimes, it's just very weird. So I often wonder, why did we start making that noise? Why did we start clapping our hands, you know?

I know that applause meant something very different in Roman theatre as to how it did now. It actually could mean get off if you were a poor performer. But yeah, all of those are fascinating. And I wish I had the historical knowledge to be able to give you a definitive answer as to why words. Would you say then that...

I mean, we're talking about communication and that would include laughter and it would include clapping, wouldn't it? So would you say that non-human species who don't have what we recognise as words, they do have language though? I mean, we would refer to the language of bees, for example. Yes. But would you call that a language? I absolutely would. And there has been some extraordinary findings in recent years

which again is going to sound ridiculous, but that ducks, for example, in Somerset have a definite dialect. So they have a different sound and a different pitch to ducks up north.

And some of our animals really are. There was something in the paper again about some Scottish hornbills, I think. They definitely speak in a different way. So I would definitely call it language for sure. So they would know if they were meeting a duck from another place? Yes.

Well, I guess so. I guess so. And their mating calls are... You know, you only have to hear... You know, if I'd let my cats out into the garden and you suddenly hear the birds kind of, you know, especially when it's birthing, you know, when they're laying their eggs and things, you can definitely hear that alarm call. So I would definitely call all of that language. And we certainly hear... I say this as a cat owner too, and I imagine... Owner. Yeah. A cat butler. Yes. When they...

Come in with something. Yeah. There's a very different howl. Yes. There's a kind of, I've got something. Yes. You better come and look at it. It's still alive kind of howl, isn't it? Yes. No, it's totally true. Our animals communicate in the same way. And this is a very deep philosophical subject, isn't it? But that's why I think our treatment of animals should be fundamentally...

uh changed because um they are i think far more sentient than we give them yes yeah um

Yes, I mean, and that actually, before we go, we will get back into the topic. But I mean, that's actually something that is, you know, very much what people in life sciences are thinking about, aren't they? That is how we're beginning to understand communication. And this is how all these things begin to blend into one another. Listen, coming back to the book, because we should do, um...

There's another thing about it which is a bit intangible, which is that there is a sort of melancholy to it. And that is partly because it's about primarily a woman who is mourning her missing sister and doesn't know whether she's dead or not. And now feels absolutely plunged back into that world and plunged back into that time.

and is also grieving for her mother and her father is very much older and unwell. But there's another kind of melancholy to it. And it had something to do, I felt, with the melancholy inherent in the life of examining something like words. Is that, am I being fanciful?

Not at all. I think I definitely have melancholy in me. I always have done. And I don't know whether I then sort out words to sort of, you know, fulfil that melancholy in some way. Because I think melancholy can be really creative and...

If you live in your head, I think you learn to embrace melancholy as much as you learn to embrace joy. But one can outweigh the other. But again, it's difficult to know what came first. Does a life of examination and interrogating language suit someone who is on the melancholic side? Or does it then persuade you that life is very fragile and flawed and all of that stuff? I think it's probably a bit of both.

But actually took out, my editor was very good with a red pen. And she kept saying, look, I love all this language stuff, but this is just interfering with the plot. This has got to go. And I did fight my corner in lots of places, but there was one, there's a few scenes which involve probably my favourite spot in Oxford. And I don't know if you ever went there, Alex, but it was very close to the dictionary offices where I worked.

and it's a cemetery in Jericho called St Sepulchre it's got this wild untamed beauty to it it's closed to new burials it was opened sadly to well because of the cholera epidemic so the

The new burial places were much needed. But it's not neglected. So there's a lovely group that goes there and clears away some of the brambles. But tombstones are falling down. And it's just the most exquisitely wistful place. And...

In one of those scenes, I did actually have Martha, who lives in her head a lot like me, exploring the most brilliant book called The Anatomy of Melancholy by Robert Burton, which was so important to so many writers and poets and things. And he examines melancholy, where it comes from and how you might treat it. And actually a lot of our kind of modern wellness techniques you can find there, like walking, nature and that kind of thing.

a bit of wine as well. And he talks, he has some extraordinary case studies. So he talks about a baker who,

from italy who was um his his melancholy manifested itself through anxiety so he was convinced he was going to be melted by the sun so he stayed out of the sun his whole life anyway i i went to town on this because i find it so fascinating but it all went um oh but no i think it was the red pen yeah the red pen but i think that was right and i think um

I do quite a lot of meditating on melancholy in this because I think because Martha is quite like me in so many ways and she does live in her head she does tend towards the melancholy but she has also incredible inner strength because she doesn't really worry about what people think of her which I was a deliberate you know characterisation because that is not me and

Are you trying to manifest that? I was, I was. And also she was so autobiographical, I thought, oh God, I've got to change some of this. So yeah, so she's quite a complex character from that point of view. But I think she does tend to linger on the melancholy, but she finds joy...

where she can. I suppose one way to think about, you know, one thing we could say, we've been talking a lot about sort of chicken and egg situations, is that when you examine anything very closely, you're drawn into a state of kind of rumination, of seeing all sides of it. And those sides will include things that are sad and that are dark. And you mentioned there, and we're going to come to the audience in a minute, so just a sort of final thought from me. You mentioned uncovering

the darknesses in language. And I wondered if you could say a bit more about that, because I'm thinking a lot of the time that's to do with things being covered over, or perhaps the gaps, things that words don't say. How do you feel about that? Yeah, that's interesting, actually, the gaps in language. Well, I think I talk a little bit about...

the sort of palimpsest of language and of the dictionary. So a palimpsest is something where things are covered over again and again, so you just get so many layers. If you imagine being an archaeologist and you're sifting through the strata of soil to get to where you need to go. And I think that...

That idea of layers in language is really fascinating to me. So I mentioned the OED. The most ordinary words have the most extraordinary history and some of them very dark. So one of my favourites is thrilling someone. To be thrilled was originally to be pierced with a knife.

It's related to a thirl, which was a hole. So an eye thirl was a window and a nose thirl, which became our nostril, was your nose hole. And it was to create a hole in someone. But then it moved to the idea of piercing someone with excitement or being pierced with excitement, thankfully. To bless someone was originally to sprinkle with blood, kind of consecrate them in some way.

Oh, there are just so many words that just have this... I think they pack within them some of the darker human motivations and we have lost those secret lives. But sometimes I think by unpacking them, we understand a bit more about history. I mean, I've always said that I think language distills history better than any picture. Yes, when you start to take apart any sort of individual word, do you ever feel...

a sort of sadness that though when we use a word like I don't know astonishing or petrifying or something like that those kinds of words that actually people just use them without knowing they don't need to know

But it's actually very interesting to know. Does it make you feel sad that there's all this knowledge that people aren't constantly accessing? No, it does make me sad because I think so many people love learning about them. I like to think that first and that curiosity is still there. So I didn't know any of them until I actually started opening my dictionary and looking at them.

And I feel like my life is so much richer for them. But, you know, hopefully the fact that people are here tonight or the fact that people like Words of the Day or they... I think people never cease to be excited by language or passionate about it. You know, there may be things going on that people hate, but as long as they feel that passion, I think it's actually in really good hands. So I don't actually worry about it. I love sharing things.

that oh my goodness you never know what I discovered today and I might get an eye roll but I just sort of you know especially if it's my kids I I tend to ignore it and carry on uh because there is yeah so much unpacking to do but that's why I always say find a good dictionary even if it's online because honestly it's the just the best thing in the world

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Susie, thank you so much. I should say that in the book, apart from the whole story, there are, you know, the stories of words are embedded within it, but there are also actual words at the top of every chapter. And, you know, you will learn a lot. I would like to invite the audience. I'm going to bring the house lights up a little bit so we can see you, but not too much because of our poor colours. And we have a microphone here.

And who would like to start? As I knew there'd be loads of questions. There is somebody about halfway down. Hello. Can you hear me okay? Yes. My name's Denise. Did you say that Martha has a bit of a penchant for sweary, crude words?

Yes, she... This is back to the autobiographical bit, isn't it? That's what I'm aiming for. Is that your question? This is the prelude to what my question is going to be. Okay. She is fascinated by them because the history of profanity is really extraordinary. If you trace it right back to ancient Rome through to today, the things that caused offence and how they've changed over time. So she's fascinated with how our taboos have shifted over...

But she doesn't swear very often. But there are a few occasions in the book where her emotions, where she feels so strongly about something that she just delivers a single, well, not a single, but a choice bit of profanity. Yeah. So she, it's a very hot topic, the history of swearing and also swearing itself out.

is under quite a lot of medical scrutiny because it turns out it's actually really good for us in the right circumstance, obviously. Isn't that word called lalocasia? Lalocasia, exactly, which is the relief of stress and anxiety and frustration through having a good swear. And I think any woman here who's been through labour will understand that.

that's having a good swear sometimes so my actual yes your actual question I just wanted to establish that it was Martha and also the semi-autobiographical sort of confession that you made I love a good compound swear yes and you and Mary Margulies I have

to say. One of my favourite books, if you can call it that, is the Profanosaurus by Biz Comic. Yes. Which is very creative. Yes. And I just wondered if you had a favourite compound swear or favourite swear word. Marvellous. Well,

We're absolutely after the 1955 Watershed, so go for it. Thank you. Well, actually, this is going to disappoint you because I read it out to you. I think Fuckwit is just brilliant and such a good put-down, really. Yeah.

Yeah, I wish I could say I was more inventive. I mean, I find it fascinating that our swear words are so enduring, given that language moves pretty fast, you know, 500 years on from when most of these swear words appeared. Not many of them were Anglo-Saxon, apart from shit.

Most of them came about in medieval times. And all these years on, for all that we think that we're swearing willy-nilly and nobody cares anymore, they still have the power to cause offence or to make people laugh awkwardly or whatever. And I see that on the comedy show that I work on all the time. They still elicit a reaction there.

So the compound words are really the only way in which we are moving swear words on. And whenever I talk to students and say, what new swear words are you using? They will always say the C word and then face or things like that. We are keeping the existing ones and then adding on to them, which I find fascinating. So who knows? In 500 years, we may still be using the same ones. But if we go back 500 years...

The big taboos then were ones involving blasphemy and religious profanity. So anything that could avoid, to help you avoid saying God or Jesus or anything like that, those were the big no-nos. So it'd be really interesting to see where they go from here. But I think fuckwit is, you know. Yeah.

thank you i won't tell you mine because it's well before the watershed afterwards come on come and find us and tell us and i think it was a question just ahead yes there we go thank you hi uh thanks suzy for your great work thank you i work in marketing and we love a trend i just wonder what you thought of very short words that have short lives like brat jumeirah and whether or not they have a shelf life yes shelf lives it's really interesting um

I think even if these are fly-by-nights and they don't stick around, they are still really eloquent about the time that produced them. That's what I mean about these little pocket distillations of history. And so I don't think they are lesser because of that. I think there are words that just...

I was going to say have a meteoric rise, but I always say meteors fall, they don't rise. So that's a complete misnomer. But they do explode onto the scene and then sometimes they just fizzle out. But also occasionally when we think they've gone, they come back again. So...

To give you a much older example, CHAV. So 2004, I think most of us will remember, CHAV was suddenly everywhere. And it was being used in a really nasty way at the beginning by one particular website. But that had actually, everyone thought it was a new word, that it was an acronym for council house and violent. And there were all these back, you know,

acronyms invented for them. But actually we think it comes from a Romany word 200 years ago now. It was first used for just as a mate, you know, between male friends. And then it flew below the radar and then it resurfaced meaning something quite different. So it's always possible that the ones that we think have just fizzled away will return possibly repackaged in some way. So I think they're all really valid.

And I think, I used to do for Oxford University Press a little thing, the words of the year. And I just thought they were just really amazing snapshots. And we still, obviously, every dictionary publisher has their word of the year now, but not an extensive list. And I think if we could...

get the words together for the you know the past century or more um we would immediately know what was going on um you know whether you've got bebop whether you've got demob whether you've got hot pants whether you've got you know a psychedelic whatever it will tell you something about the moment and they are yeah they speak volumes i think you've been listening to intelligence squared thanks for joining us