Tricks, Trolls, and LOLs: Comedy’s Crash Course in Spotting Lies, with Rachel Parris
57:28 Share

This episode is sponsored by Indeed. When it comes to hiring, timing is everything. Opportunities pop up fast. We've all had that moment where you're staring at a gap in your team, knowing things are about to get busy and thinking, we need someone now. Indeed cuts through the noise and gets you in front of the people who are actually right for the role.

So, when it comes to hiring, Indeed is all you need. Stop struggling to get your job posts seen on other job sites. Indeed's sponsored jobs helps you stand out and hire fast. With sponsored jobs, your post jumps to the top of the page for your relevant candidates so you can reach the people you want faster.

and it makes a huge difference. According to Indeed data, sponsored jobs posted directly on Indeed have 45% more applications than non-sponsored jobs. We find that Indeed makes hiring so fast.

When you know you're always going to get such a high level of potential candidates, you waste far less time finding a great fit to fill the role. Plus, with Indeed-sponsored jobs, there are no monthly subscriptions, no long-term contracts, and you only pay for results. How fast is Indeed? In the minute I've been talking to you, 23 hires were made on Indeed, according to Indeed data worldwide.

There's no need to wait any longer. Speed up your hiring right now with Indeed. And listeners to this show will get a $75 sponsored job credit to get your jobs more visibility at indeed.com slash intelligence squared.

Just go to indeed.com slash intelligence squared right now and support our show by saying you heard about Indeed on this podcast. Indeed.com slash intelligence squared. Terms and conditions apply. Hiring Indeed is all you need.

Summer's here and Nordstrom has everything you need for your best dress season ever. From beach days and weddings to weekend getaways and your everyday wardrobe. Discover stylish options under $100 from tons of your favorite brands like Mango, Skims, Princess Polly and Madewell. It's easy too with free shipping and free returns. In-store order pickup and more. Shop today in stores online at nordstrom.com or download the Nordstrom app.

Welcome to Intelligence Squared, where great minds meet. I'm producer Mia Cirenti.

Satire is a force to be reckoned with in any democracy, and artists are essential in shedding light on the truth. Comedy has long been a way to bring difficult conversations to the fore and to challenge narratives. Today's episode is the recording from our recent live event, "Trix, Trolls & Lols: Comedy's Crash Course in Spotting Lies." This was the first installment of our Critical Conversations series in partnership with Sage & Jester.

Sage and Jester are the art production company who create immersive experiences designed to entertain, enlighten, and help you harness your internal BS detector, arming you with the tools to question, challenge, and pause before you believe what you see and read. Live at the Pleasant Theatre, host Sophia Smith-Gaylor spoke to satirist Rachel Parris about comedy in dark times and how humor and creative expression can serve as a counterbalance to misinformation.

Now let's join our host, Sophia Smith-Gaylor, with more. Hello everyone, good evening and welcome to this event with Intelligence Squared in partnership with the impact-led arts production company Sage & Jester. Sage & Jester create immersive experiences designed to entertain. Do you feel immersed? Yeah, do you feel immersed? I know I do.

Careful what you wish for. They're there to enlighten and to help harness your internal BS detector. So I hope you're all feeling introspective this evening, giving you tools to question, challenge and pause. And obviously that's very important to me as a journalist. My name is Sophia Smith-Gaylor. I've been a reporter. I'm also a content creator.

And I am delighted to introduce our guest tonight to help us tackle how you can fight misinformation with satire. A lot of my business is fighting it with...

I don't know, reporting is often quite a little bit boring, if I dare say it. So I'm really excited to introduce Rachel Parris, who's an award-winning everything. Award-winning comedian, musical comedian, actor, improviser, presenter. Is there anything you don't do? It's exhausting just reading it out. I'm delighted to be talking to you. I'm such a big fan of yours. And what you do is never boring. It's always interesting. That's very nice. I, however, I'm very rarely on television.

Well, I'm not anymore. Television's died. You've probably seen Rachel on a variety of different programmes, but most notably her phenomenal satire on The Mash Report and Late Night Mash, if you remember that. That had, yes, grand applause. Thanks.

Over 100 million views for that programme. It's easy to forget that even though it was on TV, it was often the clips that would go viral... Absolutely. ..that people will remember, and the impact that it made. You're one of the founding cast members of the award-winning improv group Ostentatious. I don't know how much...

You would satire the politicians of today in Ostentatious, but actually probably quite a lot. We do, actually. Yeah, we have. We've had a few dubious politicians in the audience, actually. Because I think a Jane Austen comedy seems like quite a safe show to go and see at the Edinburgh Fringe. And then you tear them apart. Yeah, we have ended up kind of... We don't even plan to, but we always end up doing massively...

like Tory bashing shows when we've got like, for example, the actual Chancellor in the audience. Yeah, so, but I would say that's not like the chief satire that I do. It's bringing on them when they least expect it. Yeah, exactly. It's probably the best way to do it actually. You've been on Live at the Apollo, Would I Lie to You, Mock the Week, QI, and you're also regular on radio. Yes. I'm sorry, I haven't a clue. Any fans of, any fans? Woo! And The Now Show.

But I want to rewind. I want to take everyone back to what Rachel's first moment, first satirical performance would have been. Do you remember? Ooh. I think...

Probably before the MASH report. I mean, I'd been doing comedy and little tours of stand-up comedy and musical comedy since 2010. I started stand-up in 2010, so about eight years before the MASH report started. And I would rarely do party political satire in my stand-up before the MASH report. I would do socio-political stuff. I would talk about feminist themes a lot, which...

and actually a bit on Live at the Apollo, I've got about what makes a feminist. That was probably one of my first bits, to be honest. But I would say the Mash Report was pretty much the beginning of me doing satire, which is a good example of, like, I didn't really...

I've always been interested in politics, but I didn't bring it into my comedy. So it's a good example of being pushed into something and then finding that it suits you. And did you always want to be a comedian? No. My whole career is a total accident. No, but no one of my age wanted to be a comedian. Because, I don't know, I didn't know that it was a job you could have. You know, I watched Victoria Wood, and I loved her, and I watched Reeves and Mortimer, but you don't watch Reeves and Mortimer and think, oh, I could be that. Right?

You know, you just watch them and enjoy it. So I wanted to be a performer of some sort. I loved singing and I loved music and I really enjoyed acting and I hadn't tried comedy. So yeah, in my mid-twenties, I eventually found comedy, but not satire yet. That came later. Yeah.

Take us back then to the MASH report and how that started and how you were brought on board. Well, it was a weird way of starting, I would say. The MASH report, the BBC, maybe two or three years before the MASH report hit the screens, the BBC put out a call for a new satire programme. They had a gap to fill and...

all the major production companies, much bigger than ours, put forward pilots, pilot TV shows about half an hour long. And we were very much the underdog in that process. The others had Ramesh Ranganathan, Katherine Ryan, Joe Lycett, and even getting Nish Kumar. Nish was very little known when the MASH report started.

I remember, because I think that's how I found out about Nish Kimmel. Yes, exactly. And certainly the rest of us really weren't. Me and Ellie and Taylor had been on the circuit, but we weren't known. So, yeah, when they chose ours to be the one that continued to series, that was a huge shock, actually, to everyone involved, including the producers. And then we were amazed when we got a second series, and we were amazed when we got a third series, and then we weren't at all amazed when they cancelled us.

Been waiting for that to fall because they'd been very nervous through the last few series. And then we had this year where we thought it was over. And then Dave, the channel Dave, picked up Late Night Mash. And they were very nervous about it as well. And then we only had one series. No, we had two series, two series. Let's talk about why. Why would these channels find a format like that? Nerve-wracking, yes. Well...

This is being streamed, isn't it? OK. Because some of the conspiracy theories are true, I think. There are links between, you know, the government and people at the BBC and people at BBC Studios. And I do think, well, I mean, I know that that had an impact on what we were allowed to say. And Nish had weeks where he was ordered not to talk about things and he said, and certain people, and he said, I will quit.

this week and you'll have to fill that slot somehow. And they were like, oh, fuck, okay. And yeah, it was always a battle. When I was hosting, it was, fucking hell, it was a baptism of fire. The eight weeks when I was host of Late Night Mash were the eight weeks of Liz Truss's tenure. LAUGHTER

From literally the day she started to the day she ended, during which the Queen died. So there was an episode which we wrote in full and rehearsed in full, which was pulled and they just wouldn't let us do. So yes, there was a lot of nervousness. And I was making jokes about the government and about Liz Truss and about... And there would be... I've been told there were producers, you know, in the background going...

And the feedback always was, can we talk about party politics less? What weren't you supposed to talk about? Exactly. Exactly. Yeah, it was a strange experience because I feel like the whole point of the programme was always party political. It was always holding power to account. And that was the whole point of it. So I'm like, I don't really understand what they were going for if it wasn't that. But yeah, there was a lot. Let's just say there was a lot of nervousness.

For anyone who's sort of unfamiliar with how these programs are actually made, how many writers would there be? Would there be a team writing for the monologues? Is it different to the rest of the show? Walk us through what it was like. Yes, it is. It's quite, it's a little bit complicated because that show, The Mash Report and Late Night Mash, obviously you had like sort of sketches that were filmed with

with costume and characters on a different day, like VTs that would be in the show. And then you had the presenter, the hosts, monologues, and then you had bits like my segment. And they were all separate and different, right? So the Daily Mash website did all of the sketches, really, I believe. Nish had writers that he and Tom Neenan, they would write his bits. And I would work with...

a team of people. Jokes would be suggested by lots of people, but

I had more control as I went through and I fought to have more control as I went through. Do you have to prove you're really funny first and then you accrue control? How does it amass? Yeah, it was really tricky because I was really taken on in that job as a character actress. In the audition that I made for the pilot, I was playing a reporter and I wasn't... It wasn't very satirical particularly. It was, but it was sort of about serving beer in pubs and it was...

it wasn't me and they screenshotted, screenshot? I did, screen tested. They screen tested me. They screen tested me as like, my name was Rachel Paris, but I was playing like a character. And that is how I began quite a heightened version of myself. And

As time went on, it was like, well, this has got my name. And as soon as the second half of the series began, which was the sexual harassment piece, which went very viral, that was the first one that I'd worked on myself and co-written. And it was the first time I felt co-ownership of the piece. And from that point on, I was like, oh, this needs to always happen. But it continued to be a fight to make that happen. And there were weeks where I'd be like, I really...

I really don't want to do that joke. Because the people in the room must have... No one has the same sense of humour as someone else. No, exactly. That's a complication of working on a satirical TV show because it is a team and you aren't just representing yourself. You're kind of representing the views of the show to a certain extent and you have to...

believe what people say. Like, you know, I am a bit of a control freak and I found it quite hard and I would have... My sort of instinct is like, let me just do it completely myself. But that doesn't make for the best piece. But then there are points where you have to draw a line and go, no, I'm not doing that joke. That's really upsetting. And yeah, there were times when there would be like a room of like...

five men going no, but when you look at it from that the joke is actually on the right side and I'd be like yes, but it was a joke about abortion and I was like it doesn't matter what side it's on like as the only woman in this room I promise you anyone hearing seeing that visual joke is going to be triggered by it and It doesn't matter that all but actually ultimately with holding power to account and I'm like you're just gonna upset people and I don't want to be responsible for that and

So yes, when you're doing TV, you're part of a big team and there's a lot of compromise involved. You mentioned one of your many viral clips that you've had. Oh yeah. How many do you think you've had as viral clips? I'm thinking particularly from your satirical content. I think about 20. Yeah.

Was the feedback for them always positive no no what a surprise No, not not to surprise that the content is not fantastic. It's just people on the internet Yeah, isn't it? Yeah, so

And in fact, you've turned even that into segments, haven't you? Oh, yes. The kind of messages that you get online. Yes, that's true. Yeah, so the sexual harassment piece, which is, for those of you who haven't seen it, is with Nish Kumar's help, kind of showing people who say, like, oh, you can't even chat up a woman anymore. I suppose you can't even buy a woman flowers anymore since Me Too. The idea that the Me Too campaign has...

completely meant that men can't even approach a woman anymore. It was tackling that in a funny way. And that had really mostly positive responses, had very, very few negative responses from that. A few, but mostly it was good responses.

The week after that, we did a piece that was dealing with Piers Morgan's interview with Donald Trump when Donald Trump was first in power. And Piers Morgan had gone very, very easy on Donald Trump and had asked him questions like, oh, your hair looks nice.

Where does your mum come from? And so they had drawn... There's no easy way of saying it. They'd drawn a cartoon of Piers Morgan rimming Donald Trump, to be honest. Everyone know what rimming means in here? LAUGHTER

If you don't, I'd say Google it later, but not now. Anyway, that cartoon was drawn. And that was an interesting one because I got the attention of Trump supporters in America. And that was quite scary. So that was the first one. I got really trolled by the American crazies. And I got someone specifically wishing me breast cancer.

on Facebook going, you are a pig, you're a dirty pig and karma will find you, better get that mammogram early. Which was weird more than anything else and also frankly just sound advice. Medically, I was like, thank you, I will. I will.

And then I did one on incels. Even when we made the thing on incels, I thought everyone knew what an incel was, and they really didn't then. And even now, I'm like, surely everyone knows now. But we did a thing on incels, which I wouldn't do it the same way now. That's interesting. Why? How did you do it? I think it was... Has the discourse around incels changed? Yes, yes. I think that it was...

Not... Sorry, it's a hard question to answer. When I got to writing about violence against women and girls, it was a piece, it was in series one of Late Night Mash. I wrote it with Robin Morgan. It was in response to Sarah Everard's murder. And that was a really, really difficult piece to write for, I think, obvious reasons, finding comedy in something so horrific and the environment surrounding it. But by that point...

I felt like I understood what my job was. And I felt like I understood how to deal with comedically an issue that is really, really serious and tragic. And I think when I did the piece on incels, which was fairly early on,

I didn't grapple with how serious it was. I didn't grapple with the fact that women are dying because of the incel movement. I didn't deal with the fact that women are being beaten and harmed and also the sort of unimaginable damage that it's doing to men and boys. So I think I would have tackled it more seriously, to be honest, if that makes sense. It wouldn't have been any less funny somehow, but there's a way of...

finding jokes while still recognising how serious something is. And I don't think I would... Even then, I remember someone in the writing team was like, it was going to be like, listen up, virgins.

And even then, I remember being like, I'm not saying that. That's not going to help. That's really not going to help. That's not really what... That's not what it is, is it? So even then, I had a sense that it was more serious. But I would do a lot of it differently. Are there any topics you do not touch with a barge pole? Most. Most. As in most...

In the news agenda, or you mean like sort of socio-politically more widely? Yeah, more socio-politically. The one thing, the luxury I had in the position I had on that TV show before I hosted it was that I only had to tackle one topic per week. And that topic could be a topic in the zeitgeist. It didn't have to be a topic that was in the news that week necessarily. Right.

that meant that I could choose a topic that I felt sure about, that I knew about, and that I felt able to represent. Because satire only works if you're sure.

and if there's certainty there, and if you have mixed feelings, if it's too nuanced, and my response to nearly all news stories is nuanced, it's very hard to write satire if you're a bit on the fence. So I chose topics deliberately that I was not on the fence about, and that I felt able to represent. When I hosted...

you have less that luxury. You have to just deal with what's in the news that week, so that's a bit more tricky. But there are lots of things that I would choose, did choose, and would not choose to talk about because I don't feel I'm the best person or I simply haven't got the energy. Explain more about not being the best person. So, and I'm particularly thinking of you have the advantage of a format in which there are lots of people, lots of talent who can possibly be...

Yes, I mean, obviously, yeah, it was a unique situation. So we had a team of performers who made up like a series-wide cast, if you like, and we all knew each other and we all knew our strengths. And then we'd bring in guests as well to Late Night Mash or The Mash Report. So, for example, in Late Night Mash, I was the host. And when the uprisings in Iran were happening, we really wanted to cover that.

But I felt like there's probably someone better than me to do that. It's the kind of thing I probably would have covered in previous series, but I really felt like there was someone better. So I got in touch with Shappi Korsandi, whose family was over there and who was much more informed and much more able to have emotional stakes in that story.

And it was so much more powerful for it, my God. She was amazing and she was very emotional on the day for obvious reasons, but the power of that really came through and made the piece so much better than if I'd done it myself. And she must have had to take stock of, is there a risk? Is there going to be risk to my family if I do this segment? But equally, because you've had...

negative experiences of going viral, does that ever have a self-censoring effect? Some of the areas that you don't want to touch, is it not necessarily because you don't have opinions about it, but because you're worried about the online pushback? Yes, 100% that. Really? Yeah, of course I have opinions about everything, but I don't feel strongly that I wish to satirise them all, for one thing.

And satirising them is one thing, and then having your opinions widely, widely publicised is another. And there are comedians who live for that. That's absolutely what they do and what they did before the MASH report and what they... Nish Kumar, who is so incredible at what he does because he feels all of that...

all of the things that he says he feels it with every fiber is being and he could not live without Proclaiming what he thinks on these issues and that's what his audience love and that's not me I felt quite sometimes burned by doing that and it's quite a choice and It's a choice that I was very happy to make for that TV show and who knows I might make again, but It felt yeah, I felt quite vulnerable

Do they give you, as a comedian, digital security training or any kind of prep? Nah. I used to be a BBC journalist and I remember my digital security training, which you think for a BBC journalist should be pretty...

because it's important because obviously we could get into a lot of trouble if we don't keep things safe. And I remember we were told, don't pick up a USB stick if you see it on the floor and put it into your laptop. That was one of the main pieces of advice that we got. And the second main piece of advice I got was not to share my password with anyone. LAUGHTER

We're all learning. Yeah. So it doesn't surprise me that, because obviously you'd think that all journalists in every newsroom would get quite high level training. I would go on to get excellent training when I was at Vice, digital security training. The news...

new world, not only of satire but of comedy more widely, comedians need it. From what you've said, comedians need it. Yeah, I think all sorts of warnings and trainings. I think when that sexual harassment clip went viral, it was a really odd feeling. I was sort of suddenly the poster girl for that show, which was nice in a way, but I was also receiving messages, good and bad, from literally really all over the world, like the

the speed with which that clip went everywhere and people had very strong feelings about it was big. And I was going on all the programmes representing it and the show and kind of being asked to represent the Me Too movement by myself with no media training. And then when we did the Trump clip, being sort of asked to answer. And it's fair enough, but I do feel like...

I did not have the training for this. Yeah, I did feel like that. There's also other training that it never occurred to me you need to deploy in satire, which is knowing how to not piss off Ofcom. Oh, yeah. So during an election, what did you have to do?

in the lead up to an election, which our series weirdly often fell on, it was quite bad luck, you cannot make a joke about one party without making a joke at the expense of the other party. So that required, which is something we would hilariously ignore until an hour before the show started and everyone would run and go, oh fuck, what are we going to say about Labour? Fuck. Because in the news,

the news world there are literally like program teams who will have a running excel spreadsheet because if they were ever to be caught up and regulated by Ofcom they could have the receipts and say look we really worked to our greatest effort in order to demonstrate balance

And it never occurred to me that your program would have to do it as well. We do. We did, even if it wasn't completely even-handed. Yeah, you had to always have some joke at the expense of the other side. And then there's also fair dealing, which is you can only use a clip...

in the show that has a political bent if you comment on it you have to critique it in some way so it doesn't really matter what you go on to say about it you have to include a comment in the script and again we'd always add them at the 11th hour just before on air where you know if you have a clip of say Keir Starmer speaking in the House of Commons or something you'd have to say um

"Mmm, what an interesting chat he's making." Or you'd have to say, "It doesn't look like many people agree with him." Or sometimes they were really mundane, just like, "Oh, that tie doesn't go with his trousers."

Or something. It was just really strange little things you had to add that were a tick box exercise. But presumably when Piers Morgan was depicted rimming Donald Trump, that was fair dealing not required because it was original artwork. Original artwork, yeah. Was anyone ever litigious? Anyone not like how they were represented? No.

I think that was kept away from me. Not as far as I know. I mean, I am sure people didn't like how they were represented. I think the program had complaints. I did a piece about Jacob Rees-Mogg, which incorporated him using his Catholic faith.

to pass policy which in my opinion is inhumane and we I think we had complaints from some Catholic quarters about that I think we had complaints from lots of people but yeah I don't

I don't know how litigious it was particularly, but for all I know, that is what it was. Maybe Boris Johnson finally sued us for saying on screen, Boris Johnson is a racist and a liar, which the BBC, I can't stress this enough, let us do.

It's like, yes, they finally decommissioned us, but they let us do that. So I suppose that's what's surprising about what you've said, because how can they let you do stuff and indeed encourage you by commissioning you? Yeah. And then...

get very nervous about it. I know. It's a really odd thing to imagine because you've got so many layers at any channel, but particularly at the BBC, going right up to, well, government, really. So, like, you've got the producers who want to do one thing. You've got the commissioner, and the commissioner really, really supported the show. The direct commissioner who initially allowed us to do the show. And then you've got other commissioners going, hmm, probably can't say that. And then there's a level above them. And they...

One person says yes to one thing without the others knowing. So it's not as clear cut as it should be, but it does mean you occasionally get away with things.

You chose to hit play on this podcast today. Smart choice. Progressive loves to help people make smart choices. That's why they offer a tool called AutoQuote Explorer that allows you to compare your progressive car insurance quote with rates from other companies. So you save time on the research and can enjoy savings when you choose the best rate for you. Give it a try after this episode at Progressive.com. Progressive Casualty Insurance Company and Affiliates. Not available in all states or situations. Prices vary based on how you buy.

Summer is coming right to your door. With Target Circle 360, get all the season go-to's at home with same day delivery. Snacks for the pool party? Delivered. Sun lotion and towels for a beach day? Delivered. Pillows and lights to deck out the deck? That too! Delivered. Just when you want them. Summer your way, quick and easy. Join now and get all the summer fun delivered right to your home with Target Circle 360.

Membership required. Subject to terms and conditions. Applies to orders over $35. Eczema isn't always obvious, but it's real. And so is the relief from EBCLIS. After an initial dosing phase of 16 weeks, about 4 in 10 people taking EBCLIS achieved itch relief and clear or almost clear skin. And most of those people maintained skin that's still more clear at one year with monthly dosing. EBCLIS, labricizumab, LBKZ, a 250 milligram per 2 milliliter injection is a

Prescription medicine used to treat adults and children 12 years of age and older who weigh at least 88 pounds or 40 kilograms with moderate to severe eczema. Also called atopic dermatitis that is not well controlled with prescription therapies used on the skin or topicals or who cannot use topical therapies. Ebglis can be used with or without topical corticosteroids. Don't use if you're allergic to Ebglis. Allergic reactions can occur that can be severe. Eye problems can occur. Tell your doctor if you have new or worsening eye problems.

You should not receive a live vaccine when treated with Epglys. Before starting Epglys, tell your doctor if you have a parasitic infection. Searching for real relief? Ask your doctor about Epglys and visit epglys.lily.com or call 1-800-LILY-RX or 1-800-545-5979.

You know that feeling when someone shows up for you just when you need it most? That's what Uber is all about. Not just a ride or dinner at your door. It's how Uber helps you show up for the moments that matter. Because showing up can turn a tough day around or make a good one even better. Whatever it is, big or small, Uber is on the way. So you can be on yours. Uber, on our way. This episode is brought to you by Tic Tac. Summer tastes like...

Tic Tac. Tantalize your taste buds this sunny season with Citrus Adventure and Orange. Two everyday flavors that bring summer in every. Tic Tac Citrus Adventure is a yummy, vibrant medley of lemon, lime, and mandarin. And Tic Tac Orange is the perfect mix of tangy and sweet. Visit us at Tic Tac USA on social to refresh your summer with Tic Tac.

Do you think comedy audiences have changed at all in the last few years? I'm particularly thinking of whether they've changed after significant events like Brexit or like COVID or like, yeah, Lettuce, Prime Minister. I think that I'm going to talk more about live satire as part of Stand Up Live now, because

I think that while people do have a thirst for satire which satisfies the need for catharsis to just join in with feeling angry and going, yeah, that person's a knob and like, yeah, they shouldn't have done that. And there is that thirst. I also think that there are some things that have happened that are simply too bleak. And actually, weirdly, Brexit, even though that doesn't sort of

you would think Brexit doesn't tick the boxes of that sort of humanitarian crisis, you know, it's not a sort of live or die tragedy situation. Brexit, I've found, when I'm touring around, is so divisive, so divisive, and even if you've got a room which majority of them agree with your point of view,

It's like, bums clenched. I don't want to talk about this. It's divided my family. It's to our hope she doesn't talk about it. And it's weird. There are certain... There's a lot of topics that I think people are too sad about for you even to satirise. There's some topics that are big ones that you can satirise and I've just found personally, it might just be me, there's ones that...

I think people, it's sort of too serious. But when I've seen so many of your monologues, it's not like there's one line and one line and one line and one line. There's a rhythm to it. And there are moments, particularly in the one where you, the misogyny one, where you mention what happened to Sarah Everard. You obviously, you address that moment with the gravity that it demands. And then there's almost, it's like this sort of,

It is rhythmic. And then you will at some point deploy the one-liner where it feels suddenly like it's a safe moment to do so and there's relief again. And then Mike pushed back and forth. Does that go into the crafting of it as you're writing it? Yeah, it did. That was very hard to write. That was... Yeah, I knew what I wanted to achieve. And I was also like...

a few weeks post birth as well. So I was very emotional. You went back to mash report that quickly. Yeah. Wow. Yeah. I didn't want to, but that's when it was on. So, um, um, yeah, I filmed, yeah, I filmed one piece four weeks after giving birth. And then that one was about,

Seven weeks after and the writing of it was harder presenting it is fine But the writing of it took so much brain power, but it also was an amazing opportunity I was so it sounds weird because it's so tragic But I was so grateful to have the opportunity to speak about that when it happened because I desperately wanted to And I as I say I worked with Robin Morgan on it the producer Chris Stott also contributed to it and

And for me, the only way it can work is to give time to the seriousness of it and honour what it was. And then, yeah, there's a knack to it just going in and out of like, there is room for humour because the response to it from the government was so shocking and ridiculous and absurd.

and then go back into the seriousness of it. One of the biggest criticisms that I get from, I'm going to call the haters, is people going, from the beginning of the mash-up, going, this isn't comedy, it's not comedy, look, they're calling this comedy. It's so serious, she hasn't made a joke for 30 seconds. But that was always the point, because we were always tackling issues that were serious. So no, it was never going to be a laugh minute. And lots of satire culminated

That's what made it distinctive as a program as well. In a country where, yeah, like, a lettuce can outlast a prime minister's reign, or where an MP... Someone's like, is that guy watching porn in the House of Commons? Oh, yeah, he is. Trapped to porn. Yeah. Which I think is adorable. In a country where stuff like that happens...

Is it easier to satirise or is it harder because the real life material is so farcical? There's been a lot of lines drawn between Trump and Johnson. I realise Johnson is old news, although I do feel like you never know when he's going to come back. It's true.

I think that the absurdity was matched between Trump and Johnson, them as like comedy, bumbling comedy characters that shouldn't be taken seriously. And it's amazing that they got where they did. They were comedic archetypes. They're comedic archetypes. So in that way, that absurdity isn't unique to Britain. On the other hand, I think that our...

Sense of humor I realized there is a dilution there because we're seeing all of the American humor and the Americans seeing ours and the line is not as big as it used to be but I do think our sense of humor has the ability to be more arch and more dry and I think that I think that can really help I think we don't always have to be kind of grinning about it People often talk about the Brits as being maybe more sarcastic Mm-hmm. Would you say that's the case?

I think that probably used to be true. I think we do irony better than the Americans. Yeah, I'm pretty sure we do. But as I say, I think that styles are blending much more now. Yeah, I want to talk about that because...

your satirical career blossomed on TV. And nowadays, if a young satirist wants to get a career, like, good luck if you want to be on TV. But presumably, they're consuming...

I'm hoping they're watching the backlog of satirical content from the golden age of satire and telly. But they're also watching online content. They'll be watching content from Americans. Is it homogenizing slightly because it's sort of this big online gloop of comedy in the Anglosphere or not? In a way, watching YouTube and social media clips is now offering them more. The backlog is much more available to them than it was then.

to me and people before me, because you'd have to just find tapes of it, or it might come on television in a repeat. And now, there's comedians from the past whose clips have gone viral again 50 years later. So actually, the younger generation have much more access to their forefathers than...

than we did, or people older than me did. But yeah, television is... The landscape is changing, obviously, so, so much. Lots of satirical programmes aren't being commissioned now. Mock the Week has gone, obviously. It's changing. So if you're making satire now, you're much more likely to be making it on your own.

which is hard, which is really hard. But I was saying to you before the show, the advantage of that, of working on your own, is it does mean that you don't have to make that compromise of balancing your voice with the opinions of producers. You can like every joke that you put out because it's yours, and if you don't like a joke, don't say it. You can only represent your own opinions and not the opinion, not be curtailed by a channel.

So that comes with an enormous amount of freedom, but it does come with a lot of work as well. Thinking about the premise of this evening, which is the function that satire can have, not only really in challenging misinformation, but providing community, what are examples of community-making that you think you've witnessed from a career in satire? Hmm.

I think that for me, the most powerful pieces that I did that had the biggest response were around sexual harassment, violence against women and girls, sort of feminist pieces. To speculate about why, I would say it's because we didn't see much of that.

It was new. Yeah. It's weird because when we did the sexual harassment piece, me too felt like old news. It had been a few months and I felt like I'd seen everything that had been done about it. So I was really surprised when it took off. But it turns out there hadn't been as many, perhaps, as I thought or none that caught the imagination. But I would say none of what I did caught... There wasn't a direct community, but I...

I saw, it sounds really weird, but like in the comments, in the comments, there's a world in the comments and they say don't read the comments. But sometimes there is community in the comments. And I saw that build from those clips. Women supporting women, men supporting women. I always read comment sections and book reviews. I'm a sadist. But you don't get to partake in the community if you don't see what people are saying. It's true.

It's a weird thing with comments, though. Like, I had one recently. I commented on-- sorry, this is probably by the by. There was a guy online doing a video, which he's like a sort of pickup artist. And he was doing how to talk to a girl. And he said if a girl says, oh, I'm interested in reading books,

His advice was, he said, "Well, your instinct might be to ask her what books, but don't do that. Tell her what you do. Tell her what books you read. You might say something like, 'Well, the first book I read voluntarily was when I was 25 years old.'"

And it was about closing a deal. And I was like, oh my God, you read The Art of the Deal when you were 25. And that's the only book you've ever read. And I just commented like, mate, you're out here telling men not to ask a follow-up question to a woman, but instead to turn it right back on themselves. And that's all I put. But then for some reason, that comment took fire. And it wasn't a particularly inspirational comment. But all the comments underneath it, of which there are hundreds...

say much harsher things and much worse things. To him? To him. And like, this guy's a bellend, this guy's a knob. And don't get me wrong, I think he is. But I wouldn't say that online. I wouldn't choose to say that to put that out. And it's like those comments are representing you then. And so you either delete the comment, which looks as though...

You regret it, which I don't regret my comment. I know, but what they've all said isn't your fault. I know, but it feels like you're all tied in together. You're all under one sort of comment thread. Anyway, sorry, this is probably off topic. It's a new phrase that I've learned called comment jacking. Yes, exactly. Comment jacking. Yeah, that's a good, that's a useful term. I don't know if I would describe you as comment jacking though, Bear. You were just, I mean, ironically, he didn't really know how to close a deal, did he? If he thought that was a way to speak to a nice lady he was on a date with.

What is a bit you wish you had written? Right. One of them is American, actually. John Mulaney has a fantastic bit from about five years ago now. That's about Donald Trump. That's about he says the current administration is like if there was a horse loose in a hospital. Has anyone seen this?

Some of you. Only one or two of you. Oh, it's so brilliant. Look it up. It's on YouTube, obviously. Actually, that special is on Netflix as well. And yeah, it's just such a perfect bit describing the chaos of the Trump administration. A horse loose in a hospital. And he goes, sometimes it's when you don't hear the horse that it's the most scary. Where is he? What's he doing? And they're like...

And people think they can understand your situation. They're like, oh, well, I've seen a goat in a post office. And he's, there's nothing like that. This is a horse loose in a hospital. It goes on for like five minutes, and it's perfect.

It's perfect comedy. And also, I love British satire as well. I think all of the thick of it is just phenomenal and perfect. But in terms of a bit, there's also a bit in response to an American and US oil spill in 2010 done by Clarke and Daw to Australian satirists. And they're a bit like Bird and Fortune.

And that's worth YouTubing, where they're like doing a mock political interview and they just keep going, well, the front fell off. And he goes, what happened to the boat? Well, the front fell off. Well, why did the front fall off? Oh, we didn't mean for it to fall off, but it did. It's perfect. I can't emulate it, but please just go and watch it because it's perfect satire. And here in the UK, who is it...

Who were some of the people that you most admire in this space? Well, as I say, I didn't grow up loving satire. I grew up loving stupid, mad stuff like Reeves and Mortimer, all the sketch groups, really. But as I've got older, I do think Armando Iannucci was doing fantastic things. I like the absurd version of satire, which was like brassire in the day-to-day. So it's not direct satire, it's almost satire of satire. And as I say, I think... Oh, and Rory Bremner, which...

What he was doing then seems old-fashioned now, because simply doing impressions feels like an old-fashioned genre. But what he was doing was good satire, and he gave this platform to Bird and Fortune as well, who I loved.

Obviously, John Oliver, but he's mainly doing American politics. Samantha Bee over in the US as well. But yeah, there's lots. It makes sense that the origins for you were in sort of silliness. They really were. Because that's how satire begins. It's seeing the silly. Yeah. And the sort of unfathomable in what's happened. Yeah, absolutely. And I think it's really important to say when people ask comedians who their favourite comedians were, it's not necessarily...

like what you do. Like I don't necessarily do, like I love Victoria Wood and some of what I do is a bit like Victoria Wood, but most of the time, like I loved watching stupid sketch duos and that doesn't represent what I do at all, but it doesn't mean I don't, that's what I love watching. We have one more question before we go to an interactive moment of this evening where you will be posed with a question, two even. But until that, I want to ask you if you had to satirise anything

I mean, I was tempted to ask you, I'm going to say it. We'll end on a lighter note before I do that. Yesterday's speech from Keir Starmer, if you had to figure out how to satirise the island of strangers, can you? Off the cuff. Not off the cuff, but... If you were doing the MASH report this week, would I cover it? You'd have to, wouldn't you? You'd have to and you'd want to. Yes, it would be easy to satirise because he's...

He's sort of gone further into caricature than he began. If it looks like reform and smells like reform. Yeah. And using very handy phrases to pick out to absolutely tear apart. And if you had to satirise one cheeky conspiracy theory, what one would you pick? Um...

I would pick something to do with the anti-vax movement, I think, because...

There's so many ludicrous things said that have sort of started over in America and some of the wellness movement is linked in with it, but have absolutely spread over here and is so dangerous. And I would want to, again, it's one of those topics I would want to tackle. I mean, measles is back. And some of those conspiracy theories, they're literally laughable. So I would quite like to have a lot of fun with them.

We now have a question for you. We have two multi-choice questions and a QR... Ooh, there we go. A QR code has magically appeared behind me. You're going to scan it on your phones. Click the link as well if you're watching our live stream. Grunt when you've been able to scan the QR code. Thank you.

You'll be asked two questions. I'm going to read them out as well, hopefully while you're doing them. The first one is, what do you think is the biggest strength of satire today? A, holding power accountable.

B, bringing people together through laughter. C, helping us process tough realities. Or D, making difficult truths go viral. Should I read the second one out as well or should I wait for the polling? Oh my goodness. So many people are wrong. Um...

We privately spoke through what we thought the answer would be earlier. Hang on. That's really interesting. So the highest proportion of votes have gone to making difficult truths go viral. So that's a very sort of impact-led answer, I would say. Sort of raising awareness. So that's about how much it reaches. We broke it. Holding power accountable.

As a journalist, that's the first thing I went for. And then you persuaded me to think I was wrong because that is sort of what journalists should be doing.

as opposed to satirists for doing our job. And it was C, it's what you've been saying in my opinion. You've been repeating the word catharsis. Yes, in my opinion. Of course, what satirists want to do, probably, apart from making people laugh, is to hold power accountable, that sort of...

the goal, but I, maybe this is really cynical, but I don't think very often the people who are in power are changing their policies because of a piece of satire.

Rarely. Maybe. Maybe it might change the mood of a group and therefore that somehow impacts voters to write to their MP and maybe that impact somehow gets into policy change. But I do think that the community aspect that you were talking about is really, really important. And I think if there's a shared moment on an issue that affects lots of people and people feel alone and lost and angry about it, if you can find...

a piece of satire, I think that's what satire is brilliant for, which encapsulates how you feel and can inspire people because of that laughter and makes you feel like those feelings are shared. I feel like that definitely does happen, whereas actual changes and holding power to account, I think rarely happens. But I have seen B happen. Yes. Okay. Question number two. Which...

Going to have to scan again, folks. Which is more dangerous in today's culture? A, misinformation spread seriously. B, misinformation spread as a joke. C, people who can't tell the difference. And D, social media algorithms. Yeah, I think that. You all love D.

No comment. Social media algorithms. That does feel, obviously all of them, but that does feel true, doesn't it? Like so many of the huge divisions between people, um,

the ingrained political and socio-political opinions that they have have been formed because of what they've been shown repeatedly and supposedly with evidence and backed up by fact. I left X now, but X got so weird by the end for me. It was just repeatedly showing me like...

really, really divisive stuff on Israel and Palestine and the trans rights and just the most real thin end of the wedge stuff on either side to try and stoke some kind of feeling and make me keep scrolling and angrily punching at it. And it was so odd to really see it doing that. And you just think...

When there's divisions in, say, your family even about those things, you're like, well, there's bound to... Because if that's all they've been shown and all you've been shown is this, it's so persuasive. Because you feel like you know everything about that issue, but you don't. You've only seen one side of it. I also like how everyone voted because...

When people share misinformation, it's not really their fault. It's a misconception that, oh, this person shared this thing, they must be an idiot. No, anyone can share it or be tricked or be quite vulnerable to it. Dee was the only answer there that was sort of holding the tech bros to account, which they absolutely should be. So you did get the answer right. Good to know of you. Please, a big round of applause for Rachel and for Sophia. Oh, thank you.

Thanks for listening to Intelligence Squared. This episode was brought to you by Sage and Jester. Make sure to visit sageandjester.com for all the exciting experiences they have coming up in the fight against the misinformation crisis. This discussion was produced by myself, Mia Sorrenti, and it was edited by Mark Roberts. In honor of Military Appreciation Month, Verizon thought of a lot of different ways we could show our appreciation, like rolling out the red carpet, giving you your own personal marching band.

Or throwing a bumping shindig. At Verizon, we're doing all that in the form of special military offers. That's why this month only, we're giving military and veteran families a $200 Verizon gift card and a phone on us with a select trade-in and a new line on select unlimited plans. Think of it as our way of flying a squadron of jets overhead while launching fireworks. Now that's what we call a celebration. Because we're proud to serve you. Visit your local Verizon store to learn more.

$200 Verizon gift card requires smartphone purchase $799.99 or more with new line on eligible plan. Gift card sent within eight weeks after receipt of claim. Phone offer requires $799.99 purchase with new smartphone line on unlimited ultimate or postpaid unlimited plus. Minimum plan $80 a month with auto pay plus taxes and fees for 36 months. Less $800 trade-in or promo credit applied over 36 months. 0% APR. Trade-in must be from Apple, Google, or Samsung. Trade-in and additional terms apply.