Improvement or Implosion? We Assess INEOS' First Year at Old Trafford
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Hello and welcome to It's All Kicking Off for our weekend preview show. Lots to get through today. We're going to be talking about Newcastle's Champions League clash with Forest, even though it's in the Premier League. United's trip to Goodison and Manchester City's home match with Liverpool, which is where we'll start. Chris, what did you make of City last night? Flashback.

Flat and feeble, Mike. That's what I made of Manchester City last night. As soon as the Manchester City team came out, there were alarm bells ringing for me. Of course, no Harland. That was clearly down to injury because there's no way Pep would have left home.

a fit and firing Erling Haaland out of the team. So that was really unfortunate, first of all. But Husanoff at right-back ahead of Rico Lewis. I don't even know whether Husanoff has ever played right-back in his career. I don't believe he did in France. I'm not an expert, Mike, in...

in the Belarus League. Come on. So I can't say. But that was strange, you know, ahead of Rico Lewis. I looked at Manchester City's midfield, Bernardo Silva and Gundogan, two great players from the past. But this season, you know, they were never going to have the legs to compete with the Real Madrid midfield. And I thought the white flag went up early and Mbappe scored one long ball, you know,

early on over the top. John Stones, I think, could have done better. Diaz certainly could have done better reading the flight as well. Stones could have got round. Then Stones went off injured a couple of minutes later. Real Madrid, it was a stroll in the Bernabeu for them. And I think Angelotti could not have imagined this game being so easy as it was for Madrid. City just capitulated. There was no intensity.

in their play. And I think Pep's gone a little bit early with the old mini-Rodriy.

He went missing last night. And look, we can't just sort of single him out. Well, I've not singled him out. That's sort of maybe the fourth, fifth player, Manchester City player who I've called out. But look, it's about getting back on track for Manchester City at the weekend. And they were brilliant against Newcastle. I was at the Etihad 4-0.

And that was why I thought they'd go over to Madrid and maybe go into that game with a bit of confidence, but they didn't play like that. And then Liverpool slipping up in

which, I mean, Aston Villa are a team who I think on their day, attacking-wise, they can really hurt anybody. But that last night was a bit of a sore one. And are we seeing now, Mike, the first sort of real blip from Liverpool, sustained blip for them? And Arsenal fans will be absolutely made up because it looks like there is a title race on. When you see the sitter that gets missed, I mean, my word,

And at the end of it, I was listening, I was driving down to London, I had it on the radio and the commentators made a really good point. I think it was Adrian Durham said, at the end of that game, the final few minutes of that game, you're not seeing Liverpool desperate to try and score that winner. They're quite happy to take the point. And obviously at the end, Villa are the ones who come closest to winning it. So,

that could be quite, you know, telling really, I suppose that if you're going for the title, are you not trying to score the goal that wins the game? Or are you looking at it psychologically, knowing that you've got that advantage on Arsenal and thinking, well, you know what, we'll take the point. It's up to them to close that gap on us. Yeah. Um,

Yeah, I don't want to disagree with Adrian Durham, but I mean, they would have been trying to get the winner. But there's also that old adage, if you can't win it, don't lose it. So there may be an element of that. And going into the game, would a point at Villa be an absolute disaster? I don't think so, but...

But, you know, maybe Nunes... Arnaud Slott isn't having a mizzy. He called him out, I think, earlier this season. And that was a moment where I think if Liverpool do end up not getting over the line, there may be Liverpool fans who look at that particular miss and think, you know, that was a moment where it started to go wrong. But that's a big if. They're still in the driving seat. You've been involved in a lot of title battles in your career.

Is it better to set the pace or is it better to chase and be on the heels? Depends if you win, Mike. Yeah, I'd much rather have points on the board, points in the bag. I mean, that's just common sense, isn't it? I mean, it would be, I suppose, a better feeling if you can sneak up from behind and suddenly hit the front. But there are no guarantees. I would still much rather be Liverpool than Arsenal and their makeshift

send her forward. And just picking up on a point you made about City, I'm loathe really to mention this because I don't want the bosses at our place getting any ideas, but it's this incredible clip on social media and Marker

the uh the madrid newspaper sent one of its reporters to intercept manchester city fans as they left the ground uh at three well i think it was about an hour gone when he was outside and he's thrusting a microphone in their faces as they're coming out clearly it's madrid it's a night game they've all been on the sesh all day a couple of actually lighting up a fag and he's sticking a microphone in front of the face what happened there then and to be fair to the city fans the

None of them reacted, you know, really badly, but there were a few, you know, disgruntled reactions. But one of them made the point that they thought that they'd come all the way to Madrid and Pep had just written that off. He was just concentrating on the Liverpool game this weekend. Is that fair or is that nonsense? That cannot be right. Look, what are Manchester City playing for now? Now they're at the Champions League FA Cup. That's it. A top team.

Well, a top fourth and it should say top five, really, because I think top five Champions League, Mike, I think you pointed that out very well, actually, before we came on air. So there's no way, there's no way that Pep would have prioritised the game against Liverpool at the weekend. But the one thing I would say, and I've already mentioned that, it did look like they got the old white flag up early and...

You know, that their performance was so flat and that they were a team who went into the game after beating Newcastle 4-0 with very, very little belief. And, you know, they never were in the game. And that was the biggest surprise. But prioritise Liverpool over a Champions League? Come on.

Do you think they were paying a little bit for the sins that had happened previously in the first leg? I mean, that absolute catastrophe at the end where they managed to turn victory into defeat. And then you go to the Burnabout knowing that you're going to have to turn up and try and beat a team that's packed with intelligence, packed with pace. And you go a goal down early on.

It's just game over, isn't it? There's not really that much you can do to alter it. Yeah, I actually thought in the game at the Etihad, Real Madrid deserved to win. No two ways about it anyway. And, you know, albeit from a playing perspective, if you two won up and you let it slip late on, as they did do, it would be a sore one. But Real Madrid deserved to win both games. And they did do. And it was...

The gap between the teams in terms of quality, intensity and aggression was so vast. And that's a worry for City. And it's obviously a big period coming up for Pep and City. You know, the 115 charges, we'll find out about that. But...

where is City going to end up this season? And then looking forward to next season, what's going to happen over the summer? Because it does look like, although we brought a few in in January, it does look like there are a few ageing players who need replacing at Manchester City. And this squad at this moment in time, you can't see them challenging for a Premier League title next season in the current form. Back onto Liverpool.

So they've got City and then they've got Newcastle. If they win both of those games, are they a million miles away from winning this Premier League title? Well, I hope...

If they win both games, then, yeah, of course they're not a million miles away. But I wouldn't like this clip to get clipped up and then this held against me. So if they win both games, I think they'll go on to do it. Look, I think this is maybe the period where, you know, it's been sort of a little bit sticky for them. But I think that that gap, you know, at the top...

you know, to Arsenal. I think Arsenal have got the work cut out. They've got to be near perfect. Moving on to the other side in Manchester, United head to Goodison Park to face resurgent Everton under David Moyes. I suppose you could call it a tale of two managers. You've got one at Everton in David Moyes, former Manchester United manager, who has come in and had an instant impact. And obviously you've got Ruben Amrim at United, who's

who is clearly struggling, as we've spoken about before. What's your take on this? What do you think that says about the two managers involved? And are we guilty a little bit in this country of kind of shunning our own

and just going for foreign names because it feels like the right thing to do. Well, in fairness, I think David Moyes would hold his hands up and say that he did have the chance at Manchester United. Things didn't go his way. I don't blame Amberham for what's gone on at Manchester United. I know that there's...

There's the argument out there that he should be adaptable. And, you know, if the 3-4-3 is not working, then, you know, he needs to change up. I do understand that. But he went into United on his terms. This is the way I play. This is what has been a success for me. And this is what has worked. And you need to, I think, you know, say to the hierarchy, you need to give me the players'

to make it the right fit. So I don't blame him. I think it's an enormous summer for Manchester United this

clearly in terms of who comes into the club and who goes out. But he needs a strong end to the season because if this run carries on, this losing run carries on, then the pressure is really going to be on him at the start of next season when he does bring a few in. With regards to David Moyes, it couldn't have gone any better, really.

I mean, an Everton team now who are free scoring. I mean, who could have imagined that? Four wins in the last five. We don't even think about Everton now in terms of a relegation battle. David Moyes has done an incredible job in a short space of time. But David Moyes will tell you it's only in a short space of time. And that's where, you know, it's...

That's one of those where his job was to keep them in the Premier League, change of stadium...

It looks like he has done that. I'm just worried for David Moyes that there's a danger of overachieving. If he carries on flying until the end of the season, you can imagine the expectation going into Bramley Dock at the start of the next season. But he's done a brilliant job in terms of getting the team's confidence back and they look like a good all-round outfit and will be favourites for this game, I'm sure. You can't make United favourites.

Well, I was going to say, and is it kind of, David Moyes is a great manager, um, and I don't want to do him down, but is this a case of pragmatism? You sound like Ian Ladyman there. No comment. Um,

Is it a case of a victory for pragmatism? So you've got David Moyes, who is a very experienced manager, who has been at a number of different clubs. He knows what works. He knows what will get quick results in the Premier League. And he goes to Everton and there's a desperate need for that because, as we know, they were in danger of relegation when he came in, which would have been unthinkable. And he makes the relevant changes there.

And all of a sudden, the impact is pretty much instant. Whereas at United, you've got somebody who's going in there and they're not pragmatic in the sense that they're not making little fixes that they think will shore things up and get results turned around a little bit. It's almost like we are now starting afresh. And that's a very difficult thing to do in the middle of a Premier League season.

Yeah, I think they both took over slightly different jobs. And I think a manager is always at his strongest when he first goes into a club. And certainly, I've already mentioned Amarim, his success at Sporting Lisbon. The wheels have come off Sporting Lisbon, funnily enough, since he's left. But...

but being able to dictate to Manchester United because they wanted him so badly, the way that he wanted to play, this is my way. And he stuck with that. And in many ways...

uh if that's his strong suit i i do quite admire that but i also understand the need to adapt where david moy's uh going back to everton brave to go back as well because of his success which he has um first time round but it was all about uh for evident because defensively i think their record under short dice was uh you know was strong but it's all about trying to get the team

again. I don't think there's been any real rocket science with what David Moyes has done. I think that Beto has come into the team, but before Beto came into the team, it was about getting Decorey a little bit closer to Dominic Calvert-Lewin and Dye, I know, and Dye's injured now, which is a massive blow for David Moyes, but

but a little bit closer and narrow off that left-hand side, more bodies into the box. So, you know, there have been the subtle tweaks which David Moyes has made, and then the confidence has flown and grown. I actually thought the best result which David Moyes has had was the away win at Palace at the weekend. I thought that that was...

Palace have really picked up under Oliver Glass. They had a disappointing start to the season. But carrying on that run after they absolutely walloped Leicester, that was really, really impressive. And that's probably the victory which has cemented Everton's safety. I'm not so sure I can see

Well, certainly Southampton won't get to 30 points. I'm not so sure Ipswich or Leicester will. And Everton, you know, they'll chip in with a few more points. So it's job done for David Moyes. But I think there's a lot of players out of contract in the summer and there'll be a big job on. And the expectation for next season will be

you know, greater now with the success which he's had. But the wheels can soon come off at Everton. We know that, Mike. I was just painting a positive picture for once. Yeah, again, we talk about issues of other people's making. Everton were up against it with PSR. We know that, you know, the points deduction. So, yeah,

It will be tricky for them this summer, but one thing that will help that you mentioned there is the move to the new stadium and the extra revenues that that will generate. There was a test event earlier this week. I don't know if you saw that. They had the first game inside the new stadium. It was absolutely incredible. I'm not an Everton fan, but when I saw the video of them playing Zed cars in there, even I got a chill down the spine. UK, you're welcome to become an Everton fan, Mike.

You know what? When I was a little kid, I actually was an Everton supporter because this was like mid-80s when Everton were very good. And all the kids in my class were Liverpool fans. So I was like, well, you know, you can't go with the flow. So I was an Everton fan. And when they lost to Manchester United in the 1985 FA Cup final...

It's the last time I got a proper rollicking from my parents. I probably shouldn't be saying this. It was my sister's birthday. She was eight years older than me and her birthday was nearly always FA Cup final weekend. And she cracked on that she was a United fan just to wind me up. And I'm thinking we're in here because was it Hogger got sent off for United?

Anyway, United win 1-0 with 10 men. I'm in a foul mood. I go into the dining room and my sister's birthday cake is on the table. She's been winding me up. You didn't. I put my fist in the cake. That's outrageous. And I will never forget what followed from my parents, which they're absolutely right, to be fair. Absolutely right.

Wow. That's incredible. And having a dining room as well, Mike, I didn't have you down as being that posh. Well, yeah. What an upbringing. It was olden, Chris, so, you know what I mean? It wasn't the biggest dining room in the world. Oh.

Other people may have called it a garden room. So was that the moment where you stopped from supporting Everton after that? Because you said you were an Everton fan. This is amazing. Yeah, so I'll tell you what it was. And this is why I curse my dad, God rest his soul, pretty much every day. So in 1987, my dad was an Oldham fan, obviously. And Oldham got Everton in, I think it was called the Littlewoods Cup at the time.

And we got Everton at Goodison Park and I'm like, can we go, can we go, badgering him. And he got me a ticket and obviously we sat in the Oldham end. And when you're in there with 4,000 people from your town and you're watching your town's team, you can't, you've got to support them, haven't you? And from that moment on, I was cursed for the rest of my life. Yeah, it's quite sad that, supporting Oldham. Yeah, I feel for you, Mike. Yeah, thanks, Chris. I'll mention it quite a bit. Woo!

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It is 12 months since INEOS came in with a state that now stands at 29%. It's been an interesting 12 months. A shameless plug here for a piece that I've done for MailPlus that will be up at some point later today. How would you assess them, Chris? Because you look at the table and that certainly gives you one response. How would I assess INEOS since they've taken over? Yeah, their impact on Manchester United. Is that a serious question? Yes, absolutely.

Well, disappointing. I think it's been very disappointing. I mean, they're bordering on, as far as I can see, and you're the guy in the know,

They're bordering on sort of being viewed a little bit like the Glazers, I think. I think there was so much excitement when they took over. But now, I mean, where do you start? First of all, if you want to start on the field, there's not a lot to be excited about. But I think that off the field and a more serious point, I think just from afar, seeing all the...

all the job losses and the cuts which are being made. And, you know, people who have worked at the club for years, there's a lot of bad feeling over that. And that is quite understandable. And I don't know, I'm in the know, but I don't know whether this was always going to happen at the start where INEOS were open about this, you know, whole situation. And I get that, yeah,

In business, people who run a business can be ruthless and are ruthless. But I think when both sides on the pitch and off the pitch, things are sort of...

sort of headed in the wrong direction and there's that feeling at the club. It always felt to me, I never played at Manchester United, but it always felt to me a club which was together pulling in the same direction. It doesn't feel like that now and that would be a concern for me if I was a Manchester United fan.

Yeah, and that's a great point because that is, it always amazed me when you went into Manchester United for the first time and you expect this huge football club, arguably the biggest football club in the world. It is the biggest club in the world, in my opinion. And you go in and you expect it to be this daunting, you know, experience.

And it really isn't. It was like a big family club. A lot of people had worked there for a long time. The staff on the door were really friendly. Someone would come and ask you if you wanted a brew. It was just a really big family club. And I think there is no doubt that as part of these cuts, they have lost a lot of that. So now if you're Ineos, you would say, well,

we run businesses, we run successful businesses, you know, it's a petrochemicals firm, but it's also an acquisition firm. And as part of the piece that I was writing, their point was, in the three years of COVID, United's workforce went up by 300. And they'd have said at 900, it was already bigger than a lot of the other Premier League clubs. But over that three year period, it had gone up by a third. And their view, you

You know, there's a book on INEOS and there's the INEOS compass that's been written about, you know, the words that they like, the words that they don't like. All you've got to do really to figure out how they operate is look at that compass. And hard work is in there. They like a can-do attitude, all the kind of stuff that you'd imagine. And what they thought they identified was that kind of a shifting attitude that came about in COVID where people would go and work from home. And as a result, kind of productivity dropped off.

And United employed 300 people, their take would be, to basically produce the same level of work that was being produced by the 900 before these extra 300 came along. So the first thing they wanted to do was get that back into shape, get people back in the offices.

Now, it's fascinating to do a bit of digging around it. There's also a belief at the high level at INEOS that when, and they are, as I've said, they're well versed in taking over companies. When they do that, they can split the workforce into three sections. So there is 20% that instantly get the INEOS way of doing business. And there's no worries about them. They adapt, they're on board straight away.

There's 60% that are a bit taken aback by it, the change in attitude, the change in culture, and it takes them a while, but they get there in the end. And then there's another 20% that is never, ever going to get it, and they're seen as a disruption. And I think that's what we're seeing playing out on the staffing side.

I also said to someone, you know, it's a year in that let's, let's be fair. They inherited an absolute disaster. You know, the club has lost nearly 400 million quid in the last four years. This is a club that's making 650 million. Well, it's bringing in 650 million quid a year. The transfer, uh,

over the last decade has been the worst in the history of football. And it's not their fault that they're having to try and get players out there who are on gargantuan salaries. You know, the Anthony story of how that came about. So none of that is their doing. So some people will say that the way that they've come and done it has been too harsh. They will say that they were fully justified in that. But what was quite telling is that

and I'm kind of doing down the question, you can't judge these people after 12 months. You know, they will need at least three or four windows to sort the mess out on the field. And someone said to me, look, in 10 years time, if Manchester United are playing in a new stadium with incredible revenues, with a team that's challenging for the Premier League title, then I think you'd judge it as a success, but we just won't know until then. Hmm.

Yeah, and I mean, you're well-versed in the know that the...

And this is from afar. What they have to be careful with with these staff cuts is you can't rip the heart and soul out of the club with that. And there's always – I mean, I go back to Celtic now and from my playing days, there are staff who are still there from my playing days who are part of the furniture. And so I do think owners have to –

Have to be careful, you know, when they're making cuts. And no, it looks like they'll be in for the long haul. And it looks like it's going to take a long, long time for Manchester United to turn things around, you know, certainly on the pitch. Moving on to Newcastle Forest. Right. Honest answer, Chris. I always give honest answers, Mike. Come on.

You better do that. Did you see this at the start of the season ending up as a clash between two teams going for European qualification, Champions League qualification? Come on, Mike.

Of course I did. Of course I did. Don't be ridiculous. Don't be ridiculous. I didn't write Forrest off like Lady Bird did and then have them in the relegation zone, have them going down. Newcastle, yeah, I think so. No European football. I'm not saying I thought that they would necessarily hit the top four, but there's always that possibility with Eddie Howe, the fact that they haven't really brought players in and

and had a big overhaul in terms of trying to raise the level and go again. But they've kept Isak fairly fit this season. Tanali's back. They had...

a bit of a slow start I think in terms of getting things together I think they won 12 out of the last 15 at this moment in time they're flying and then you know they got hammered at the weekend at Manchester City and when they got a terrible record at the Etihad when I think people were viewing it myself included as maybe a

A good opportunity against Manchester City. I think they lost to Fulham at home in Bournemouth. Sort of surprise results they could have done with winning those two games. And then they'd have been absolutely flying. But no, they have been a breath of fresh air under Eddie Howe. Good to watch. And Nottingham Forest have been one of the stories of the season. My Nottingham Forest, Mike. The club I supported as a boy and have gone back to supporting.

Absolutely, brilliantly organised. Can play, you know, the way that they play, there's a patience now at the City ground with the way Nuno, his team plays and they're not a high pressing team. They defend in a mid and low block and they have players who can counter brilliantly. Alanga, Gibbs-White, Hudson-Odoi, really clever players and the old wood chopper.

who's north of 30, popping them in. Brilliant finisher. And then, I mean, they are so well balanced. They've got Murillo and Milenkovic at the back. Ola Eina is probably one of the most underrated fullbacks in the Premier League. And the goalkeeper, you know, isn't too bad as well. So I didn't see this, though, certainly with Nottingham Forest. You say that about Forest. If Forest played Norwich, who would you want to win?

If Forest, well, I mean, they're not in the same league, Mike, so that can't happen. FA Cup tie. Norwich are out. Next season. Well, do you know, let's see how Norwich start the season. If Norwich get off to a flyer and Nottingham Forest get off to a poor start, I'll start supporting Norwich. Whoever's doing the best, Mike.

A bit like when you were young and you went for Everton because they won a couple of leagues and what have you. Yeah, but then I jettisoned Everton for Oldham and look at how that turned out. Yeah, absolutely desperate. I think you can support more than one club, Mike. No, you can't. I mean, I've got a soft spot for Celtic who we'll get onto in a minute. I used to live in Glasgow, you know, family relations and all that kind of stuff. But you can't. It annoys me. Who was it I heard? It was the Leighton Orient chairman was on the radio before their game against City.

And he said, he's based in America. I think he's dunking donuts Boston out that way. And he said, it winds him up when he's in America and people will say, who's your team? And he'll say, Leighton Orient. And he'll do what all us fans of low league teams have to do when they're abroad. You have to explain who your team is. Takes him doing Leighton Orient. And then he'll get asked, yeah, but who's your Premier League team? Well, I haven't got one.

You know, Leighton Orient is my Premier League team. And you can't, you can't, I'm sorry, in the same country, you can't have more than one team. You can't say Leighton Orient are his Premier League team because they're not. They're not in the Premier League. No, Mike, you can get as angry and you can vent as much frustration at me as you like, but you can't stop me supporting as many teams as I like. And that's the beauty of the world that we live in. Yeah. Some people may look at that as a little bit wokey, but I think that that's fine.

Right, talking about Celtic, we've all seen the clip of your reaction in the studio against Bayern Munich. I've not seen the clip. No, it's a wheelhouse. To be honest, yeah, I mean, I'm a little bit biased because obviously I have a soft spot for that club too. You played there.

Can you describe to us, it's worse for you, you're live on TV when it happens, just your emotions as that unfolds? I felt sick for the players, really, just based on the way that they went to Munich and travelled.

Truth is, Mike, I wanted Celtic to win the game and go through, but going to Bayern Munich, the expectation at Bayern Munich at the start of the season, Vincent Kompany's gone in there, is to win the Bundesliga, to win the Champions League, to win everything. That's just the expectation. And I think their home record this season, they scored a barrel load of goals. I think they won 14 out of 16. I think they got lost to Leverkusen in the German Cup.

at the Allianz and Drew with Leverkusen as well. Other than that, they'd wiped the floor with everybody. So then to watch Celtic, who for the first 45 minutes of the game at Celtic Park were thoroughly outplayed and then maybe got a bit of confidence,

after 2-0 down, strangely enough, finished the game strongly last 25 minutes at Celtic. Maybe they got confidence from that last 25 minutes, but the balance they played with and everything this season, um,

for Celtic they're always going to be judged in the Champions League for this Celtic team to go and play with the maturity the balance carried a threat created the better chances in the first half especially speaks volumes about how far the club have come on and that is a testament to Brendan Rodgers who when he's

First took over at Celtic and really successful domestically. Was always viewed in Europe as being too gung-ho and only having that approach. But I thought that they played with real composure and balance, mixed the game up well and played through Bayern Munich.

from deep at times, but also the game understanding and missing out the Bayern Munich midfield and going direct into the front guys. I thought they were really impressive and didn't deserve it to end well.

That way it would have only gone to extra time. And maybe I think being honest, Bayern Munich had started to last 15, 20 minutes. Celtic maybe ran out of legs a little bit. And one thing to look at is maybe Celtic could have had a stronger bench or if they want to really kick on. That's something to consider trying to strengthen the squad. But all things being equal, it's now a foothold in the Champions League.

The sad thing in many ways is that Celtic have to go through a qualifier now at the start of next season. But they've had a taste of it and...

uh i thought all things being equal it was a a brilliant campaign and and a lot to be excited about mike and we can we can be excited they're in a good place clearly speaking of somebody else who's in a good place ian i saw it popped up on his instagram he's skiing at a place called happy mountain that's suitable isn't it that's suitable that's happy man happy mountain well he should be good at skiing low center of gravity

Well, he will be back with his low centre of gravity on Monday. That's all we've got time for on today's show. Chris, I'm probably going to regret asking you this, but how have I done in my short stint at the helm? I've enjoyed it, Mike. Brought humour to the pod, something which doesn't happen on a weekly basis. I'll take it. I'll take it. Right. Please make sure you give us a follow wherever it is you get your pods. I'm Mike Keegan. He isn't. And this has been It's All Kicking Off.