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From KQED. From KQED in San Francisco, I'm Alexis Madrigal. For the past several weeks, a 45-foot-tall wire sculpture of a nude woman has loomed over San Francisco's Embarcadero Plaza. The work, which first appeared at Burning Man in 2015, has ignited controversy in the city and beyond, raising the questions, who is public art for and who gets a say?
We'll talk about how public art gets selected, how it illuminates the different relationships people have with shared urban space, and why private funding is complicating it all. It's all coming up next, right after this news.
Welcome to Forum. I'm Alexis Madrigal. It's not every day that you see a 45-foot tall nude statue being assembled, but I did happen to catch the day that Marco Cochrane's R. Evolution went in at the foot of market in the Embarcadero Plaza. It was something, and it certainly commanded the attention of everyone passing by whether or not they considered it great art.
Since that day, a few weeks ago, this sculpture has been a lightning rod for critique and a catalyst for an important discussion about how public art happens and who it serves. Joining us to talk about the statue and the state of public art in the Bay, we're joined by Sarah Hotchkiss, KQED Arts Senior Associate Editor. Welcome. Thank you, Alexis. Good morning. Sarah, let's start with you.
Just describe this statue before we bring in our other guests. Sure. It stands at 45 feet tall. She's got a metal armature inside, steel. And then wrapped around that is this steel mesh. So she's semi-translucent. You can't quite see through her completely. And
And then in her center is a mechanism that makes her chest appear to be breathing for an hour each day. And at night, she lights up. There's some dynamic light aspects of her. And she's situated in the center of Embarcadero Plaza, surrounded by palm trees where the street vendors usually are set up. And she's like rear to the Ferry Building view?
Front to the Market Street? Sure, yes. So as you exit the Ferry Building, you would be facing her backside. And then she's standing in a mountain pose, a yoga pose. So two hands out at the sides, head up, kind of a peaceful demeanor on her face. Is there anything else worth saying about sort of the...
bearing of the statue or sort of its orientation within that space? I would, I mean, she's nude. She's not, she's not wearing any clothes.
Uh, her orientation. I mean, she's, I'm not sure. What are you asking? What are you trying to get at Alexis? I mean, it's, I guess what I'm trying to get at is, um, there's a variety of bodies that exist in this world. Yes. And this is a particular kind of embodiment of humanity. Yes. She is, um, slim, uh, very fit and, uh, is in this athletic pose. Yeah. Got it. Um,
Perhaps you have seen this sculpture. If you have, we'd love to hear from you. Obviously, it generated a lot of discussion. The number is 866-733-6786. That's 866-733-6786. You can also email your comments or questions about
about public art, about this particular statue, our evolution, the sculpture. You can find us on social media, Blue Sky, Instagram, or KQED Forum. I happen to know that some forum listeners already have opinions about this because I've heard them. And let's bring in a couple of other guests. Here in the studios, we've got Lynn Baer, who is a public art advisor. Welcome. Hello.
Well, thank you. It's nice to be here. And we have Cheryl Derricotte, who's an artist and creator of Freedom's Threshold, a public sculpture honoring Harriet Tubman, which you can see at Millbrae BART station. Welcome. Thank you. Thanks for having me, Alexis. Good morning, Sarah and Lynn. Hey, good morning.
Cheryl, you make public art. How do you think about these projects when they're going to be in a public space like Embarcadero Plaza? How would you think about situating something in that space?
Thanks for that question. I think this notion of place is really at the height of this controversy for this sculpture. I think it's really important to place sculptures that are both culturally appropriate
and actually are at the scale for the landscape that they're going to sit in. I think what's really challenging about the current sculpture is that its size actually competes with an iconic San Francisco building. So right away that says, hmm, maybe we should have thought
about the placement differently. And certainly Sarah's article on this topic revealed that the sculpture originally was going to be placed in a different location.
And where was that going to be, Sarah? It was going to be in Union Square. Yeah. So right near the Dewey Monument and the Union Square Alliance, which is neighborhood businesses and other kind of stakeholders, was really excited about putting this statue in Union Square to kind of drive foot traffic and bring people, be
because of its controversial nature to the area to kind of help this beleaguered commercial district. I mean, to play devil's advocate a tiny bit here, though I very much appreciate Cheryl's point, I mean, this...
This statue is meant to be monumental, right? It's meant to be out of scale. Well, it was built in 2015 for Burning Man. So it was meant to be seen on the playa, you know, this giant thing in a very vast and kind of desolate landscape that would help you orient yourself within that, as I understand. Ah, okay.
And I actually saw the sculpture in 2015 at the annual Burning Man event. And, you know, I wondered with its placement in San Francisco, why a consideration of placing the sculpture somewhere near Baker Beach and really situated within the history of Burning Man might not have been a better choice. Yeah.
Lynn, what do you think? Well, I think, Cheryl, that's a really interesting comment and the fact that, you know, it was made for Burning Man and it was made for a vast area. Because I think one of the things about – I'm going to broaden the discussion if that's okay, Alexis. Yeah, sure. And just in a way talk about public art and the kind of meaning of public art and how it has changed over time. And asking the question, I think this is really important. I'm so glad in a way that
that the work is there temporarily for six months because I think it's great that it has promoted the kind of more people are talking about public art than I can remember in a very long time a very long time and I think that's really great and it's because I think it brings up a lot of questions I think that you've started with which is you know what is public art and
Is it any art that is in public spaces, or should it have meaning and purpose, or should it become just part of the landscape or stand out in opposition to it in terms of what Cheryl has raised? Does it make communities more livable? Mm-hmm.
attract, and to your point, Sarah, attract traffic for commercial purposes. And I think the most important thing in this case is that it allows for dialogue and discussion. Yeah. Let's continue that. Let's bring in Paul in San Francisco. Welcome, Paul.
Yes, I am an abstract artist, by the way. This statue came from Burning Man. You look at the demographics of the people who go to Burning Man, are those the ones who walk in that plaza in downtown San Francisco? We don't see abstract art in St. Peter's Basilica in Rome. There's a reason for that. It's not appropriate. There's many other evocative types of art that could be there, but the hubris of the
Arts Commission, I guess it is, has shown that they have to lecture us instead of making us feel comfortable or at least interested by a piece of art. It doesn't have to shock us all the time. Hey, Paul, really appreciate that perspective. Sarah, let's talk about what role the Arts Commission did play in this. Sure. Really appreciate your perspective, Paul. Yeah. So this is actually a privately funded sculpture that was brought...
to the city by the Rec and Parks Commission with the help of a third-party art agency called Building 180. And so it was originally meant for Union Square, as I mentioned, and then it was deemed too heavy for that spot. They were worried about cracking tiles and the garage below. So the Rec and Parks Department pivoted and placed it in Embarcadero Plaza, which is also public space that they governed.
So the Arts Commission's role in this was only to vote right before it was placed whether or not it should be placed. They had no role in choosing it or vetting it or there was no public process, really. They received three emails right before the vote, and most of those were concerned with
with the vendors in the plaza and whether or not they were going to be displaced. There was no review panel, period of time for public feedback. I think in your story you said they got three emails, right? Yeah, three emails. And because it had already been approved for Union Square, it kind of felt like, oh, we'll just say yes to this as well. I bet they have a few more emails now. Douglas in San Francisco, a fan of the sculpture. Welcome.
Hi, thank you for the call and the conversation. For me, I'm a little surprised by all the controversy, frankly. This town has a tremendous art background and seems to really want to honor artists. I'm so confused in many ways because I liken her to the Statue of David.
And nobody seems to complain about that particular statue and how it is supposedly kind of emblematic of man in a way as an interpretive.
And I don't see her as naked. I don't see nipples. I don't see genitalia. I see it as the strong structure of a woman. I think it's a beautiful statue. And frankly, I'd rather have it there 100% of the time and tear down that horrible, remove that horrible, don't know how it ever got there, horrible fountain in Justin Herman Plaza than
That honors a racist, a bigot, and an individual who killed an entire community, the African-American community, in San Francisco and destroyed an entire neighborhood. And people seem to not even care that the plaza was named after that guy and doesn't have anywhere, not even a scintilla of the controversy that this statue has created.
Douglas, thank you. I do see it. Yeah, let's stop there. Let's stop there. Great. Really appreciate your call and the strength of your perspective.
Do you want to talk a teeny bit about the fountain, Sarah Hotchkiss, just really briefly in case people are going or about the plaza? Justin Herman led urban renewal in San Francisco. And the plaza has since been renamed Embarcadero Plaza. They stripped Justin Herman from the name. I think the fountain in reference is the Valancourt Fountain, which everyone I think knows. It's very geometric. Oh, my God, I love it. It's a very brutalist fountain.
It was built to kind of draw attention away from the freeway when it was there before it collapsed and was removed and we gained access to the Ferry Building. So there's some argument that maybe the purpose of the fountain has been served, but John King, former urban design critic of the Chronicle, and I agree with him, wrote that it's a weird piece of legacy architecture in this building and we should...
Maybe embrace these weird moments. Noting that his column about it was called People Hate This Huge SF Fountain. Here's Why the City Should Absolutely Keep It. So controversial. Not unlike our evolution, the 45-foot statue. Currently in Embarcadero Plaza, we're joined by Sir Hodgkin's
KQED Arts Senior Associate Editor, Lynn Baer, Public Art Advisor, and Cheryl Derricotte, who's an artist and created Freedom's Threshold, a public sculpture you should go see at the Millbrae Barred Station. I'm Alexis Madrigal. Stay tuned for more right after the break.
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Welcome back to Forum. I'm Alexis Madrigal. We're talking about the giant sculpture of a woman currently in place at the Embarcadero Plaza. The piece is like R-Evolution by the artist Marco Cochrane. We're also talking about the role of public art in cities, how public art
can and should work both in San Francisco and in all of our urban spaces. Joined by Sarah Hotchkiss, KQED Arts Senior Associate Editor, artist Cheryl Derricotte, and Lynn Baer, a public art advisor. Of course, we're also taking your calls both on this particular sculpture, which apparently some of you have strong feelings about, as well as public art in general. And maybe public art has changed the way you think about your neighborhood or community or art itself.
And give us a call, 866-733-6786, forum at kqed.org, all the social media things. We're at KQED Forum. Lynn, I wanted to give you a chance to respond to our last caller, Douglas, on sort of the comparison between this piece and David.
Hi. Thank you, Alexis. I just want to comment on David by Michelangelo, which was created in 1501 to 04, and it was commissioned on behalf of the Florentine Republic to commemorate the completion of a new civic constitution and to demonstrate the city's artistic leadership in Italy at the time. It was specifically created, and I'm going back to Cheryl's comment about place and community.
where David and to today, it still has that kind of residence. And while it's quite large, it's not 45 feet tall, it's still very majestic. And I think that is kind of an important distinction to make between our revolution who started off as
in Burning Man and really can go anywhere and in any community. That's not to denigrate it, but just it doesn't have the specificity as David does. So I'm kind of commenting on Douglas' comparison between the two. Yeah. I also think...
Yeah. Worth, worth noting. It was manufactured on treasure Island. It does have a native connection to the city. My only, you know, um, not to, not to insert myself into this spicy dialogue about, uh, about this statue. My only issue is really that the, the ferry building to market walk is kind of sacred to me. Um, it is like the entrance to the city. Uh,
And I even would say I would have just rotated the sculpture around so that, you know, that is traditionally and for 100 years that's been that has been the sort of entry point into the city. And I feel like, I don't know, kind of coming into the like as if the back is turned on the on the water there to me is interesting.
I have an issue with the orientation, I suppose, more than anything else. But let's bring in Chris in Mill Valley also, who had an interesting experience with the sculpture. Chris, welcome. Thank you. I was with my 100-plus-year-old mother, and I think the piece was in Oakland at the museum there, and we...
stood underneath it for about 45 minutes to an hour and I loved it and she loved it. She's a nationally-collected painter and I just felt that there was this upliftment and joy and it was just beautiful. The concept was beautiful, the energy was beautiful and I was so appreciative that it was placed down on the Embarcadero to be an example for the world to see what we do in our art. So thank you very much for the piece. Thank you for having it where you place it
And I think it's a testament to beauty and art. Yeah. I appreciate it. Yeah. Chris in Mill Valley. Thanks. Thank you so much. Cheryl, you know, it's interesting as someone who makes public art when when you have this kind of controversy about a piece, like how do you make sense of it?
Well, I think, you know, you have to, as an artist who makes public art, I think you have to accept both sides of public comment.
And I go back to the fact that in this particular process, there weren't a lot of opportunities up front for the public to comment. And I think that's problematic about Parks and Rec being involved in art as opposed to the San Francisco Arts Commission driving the process.
And so for me, whenever there's been controversy or concern, I think you have to take that into consideration. I think you have to meet with members of the public to really understand their concerns. And then if necessary, think about things like placement, orientation, all the things you've raised, Alexis.
I actually also think part of this particular sculpture that we've been discussing is this notion of nudity and not Chris from Milvali, but the previous caller sort of spoke to it. You know, my friend Ana Teresa Fernandez, who's a sculptor as well, called out right away that this sculpture is not anatomically correct.
And so I think some of the controversy has also stemmed from what is a feminist statement in art and positioning women, because this is not...
Really, the full model, you know, her proportions are a little different. We don't see the anatomical features that the previous caller mentioned. So it still sits very much in a fictionalized, idealized version of woman.
Yeah, a little anime fantasy to it. Yeah. I mean, we can have, you know, I think artists can make whatever they want to make and the statement can be beautiful. But I don't think we should necessarily put a read on this sculpture like an anatomically correct David or for that matter, you know,
Any of the other sculptures through the ages that have been much more realistic in their presentations of the figure. Let's bring in Sophia in San Francisco. Welcome, Sophia. Hi, how are you? Hey, good. Thanks for calling.
Yeah, no problem. I just wanted to take the opportunity to talk about how I feel like this missed a major opportunity for unification in the city. You know, when I think of public art, I think about it bringing a sense of like cultural identity to the city and kind of offering like a sense of like political and social belonging. And I think right now when we're in like
such a place of heightened divide, especially after the recent mayoral election and the presidential election. Like in stating this sculpture that represents a certain class of people, a certain class of people that go to Burning Man, which are usually a certain demographic, instead of something that's like more unifying and speaks to like the majority of this city is just...
a completely missed opportunity. And I actually think that it serves to underscore the divide between the wealthy, wealthy, super wealthy and the working class and putting it at a place like Embarcadero where people are, you know, commuting to their, to their jobs, not like working from home and stuff. It's just like, it just serves to kind of underscore that divide. Yeah.
Sophia, I really appreciate that perspective. So I'm going to take this to you. I'm going to just tack on a comment from a listener on Discord as well. Listener says, the problem with this statue for me is that it can only be understood in the context of Burning Man art. Regardless of the intent, it will always have the baggage of the hedonistic event. I don't think Burning Man art can exist outside of Burning Man without escaping this context.
Yeah, that's a great point. And the last caller, thank you for that. It was a wonderful comment. I wanted to also pick up on what Cheryl was saying about this idealized form. A lot of conversation around our public art and our monuments and memorials recently has been about this lack of
women, named women, historical, non-fictional women in our public art. And in San Francisco, we passed an ordinance in 2018 to try to bring representation of real historical women up to a mere 30% of our named buildings, our streets, our statuary. And since then, we've only added one piece to our civic art collection, which is the
the monument to Maya Angelou made by Lava Thomas right outside of the San Francisco Public Library. And this is kind of the Our Evolution piece exists in an older model of public art where we have woman standing as a symbol of something rather than as a named existing person that we want to honor, a piece of history that we want to commemorate. And I likened it in my story to the Dewey Monument because they...
there's maybe a real woman standing on top of that. The rumor is it was... For those who don't know, what's the Dewey Monument? Oh, the Dewey Monument is the statue on the pillar in the center of Union Square, which is a victory monument
It's a woman symbolizing victory. And the rumor is that it was modeled after Annie Spreckles. But she's not Annie Spreckles. It's victory. And our evolution is not the model that it was modeled after. It is supposed to be this idea of the divine feminine.
And I just think that we're past that. We need to, we have so much catching up to do in terms of the real history and the real people that we should be honoring that if we are going to put figurative or representational artworks in our spaces that they should be honoring real people. Yeah.
We have another comment here. That's actually from Shannon, who says,
I also want to suggest that this piece wasn't commissioned for any specific place or agenda. It was built from the creative freedom of the artist. There isn't really a place for large-scale art without an agenda to be created. How can we make sure that we create a space for them? A variety of questions there. Lynn, do you want to start us off on that? Wow, that's really an interesting and very, very important question that kind of needs its own discussion, you know, in terms of that. I think...
I think that public art can be a lot of different things. I mean, it can be monumental. It can be community-oriented. And most of what I do is more community-oriented, kind of more smaller sculpture. But when it comes to art in public spaces...
It is a difficult area. And I just want to name a few works that I think are successful in that terms and then kind of use those as an example. Yeah, just a couple. Great. I think the Cupid's Span Down and the Barricadero that was from 2002, that was actually a private commission.
And then you have the Ruth is out. People know this. This is the bow. The bow and arrow. Yeah, the bow and arrow. You know, it has, it specifically to San Francisco. It's specifically, and where it's sited is really beautiful because from one side you can see the Bay Bridge. From the other side you can look through it and see, you know, see the city and see it from different ways. And it also, you know, has, so it's very specific.
And monumental. Yeah. I've always kind of hated that thing, but I think you're sort of convincing me to like it a little bit more. Well, that's interesting. I'd like to know why you don't like it. But also, very popular people are the Ruth Azzawa Fountain on Hyatt and also the one in Ghirardelli Square. And I think you remember that a few years ago, the Hyatt Fountain was going to be taken down, and it was really a...
The public was outraged, and it remains today. So I think that's important. And I also think the art at San Francisco Airport is really quite amazing because that's a lot of people's entry point.
Into into the Bay Area and the art is, you know, all over the airport in in really interesting ways, both abstract, figurative, to mention your point. And and also the the sculptures, believe it or not, in Golden Gate Park.
They're older. They're from the 19th century and early 20th century. But you come upon them in surprising ways. And so you're walking through the Golden Gate Park. And I have to mention the Spire and Eaglesworthy and the Presidio. That's just a few. So I think that we have a lot of really good public art in the city that have been both city-funded as well as private-funded.
Goldsworthy and Asawa, two big favorites of mine as well. Sarah, did you want to respond maybe specifically to the, you know, how do we want public art to be placed in the world and who do we want to fund it? Yeah, that's a great question. And I...
It can't all be city money. There's just not, obviously we're in a crisis and we do not have a lot of money. So, you know, a lot of historically impressive public artworks have been a private public partnership. I think, you know, we've seen these kind of temporary art installations pop up along JFK Drive and now the Great Highway with the opening of the new park there.
And that's where we see kind of more fast and loose, maybe plop down type stuff where we're not getting a lot of community feedback and it's just kind of put there to quote activate the space. And then there's kind of a response sometimes that's like, why is this here? Why was this plop down here? How does this really fit with this environment?
But to your point, Lynn, about the Cupid's bow, that's privately funded. So a lot of our most beloved pieces, like the, I don't know if this is beloved, but it's definitely prominent, the video piece that's on top of the Salesforce tower, that is a percent for art.
installation that is not city funded at all. That was the building developers went out and selected Jim Campbell to curate and program that space. And that's how we ended up with that. Yeah. It's funny with that one. I feel like I don't have to love it to sort of appreciate there's something going on up there. Yeah. I don't know. You know what I mean? Like sometimes through the fog, you just see this mystical thing that's happening up there. And I'm like, oh, I kind of like that. Yeah.
A couple of comments here. Kimberly writes, I for one love this statue. I love how she faces Market Street with a mountain pose, which shows she is open, strong, confident. We've hidden the female form for so long. It's time we celebrate it without shame and give women a prominent place in society. I love that she denotes having vision. I also like that this statue is getting us to talk with one another, even if we differ in opinions. And Margaret writes, why does San Francisco seem to only bring an art that is a literal representation of something else?
Hearst, bow and arrow, foot, now a naked woman. I would love to see more amorphous abstract art as well. Yes, real quick. Okay, real quick. I think in terms of that point, there's a work now on Yerba Buena Island, and I know no many people go there, but there's an amazing work by Hiroshi Kiyosaki
Sugimoto. Sugimoto. Thank you all. Sugimoto. It's called Point of Affinity. Oh, yeah. And it's really quite abstract. And unfortunately, you have to kind of go there to see it. But it is abstract. And I think that over time, when the Yerba Buena and Treasure Island are fully developed, I think it will become an iconic kind of abstract image. Yeah.
That thing is rad. I mean, I particularly love it because if you take the pedestrian or bike bridge, you know, up to the island...
And, you know, you're kind of it's at the very top. You've been going up, you know, along the bay for all this time. It does feel like it's taken you forever to get up there. Then you get up there and it's this wonderful. I don't know. Is that a spire? What would you call that? A tapering. Yeah. Math personified. Math personified. Yeah. You know, 69 feet tall. But it really does taper to like this teensy tiny point there. And it is fascinating.
You know, for those who are trying to imagine where this might be, it's like, you know, the condos by the freeway. It's like behind that. And so it must be interesting if you live there, you like on the one side, you have the personification of just like traffic. And on the other, you have this perfect, perfect sculpture. And that's a San Francisco Arts Commission installation. That's a part of public funds and a public process that led to that. Yeah.
We are talking about public art here in San Francisco, of course, touched off by the monumental sculpture now in Embarcadero Plaza, Our Evolution, by the artist Marco Cochrane, installed by Building 180. We heard a comment from them earlier in this segment as well. We are joined by artist Cheryl Derricotte, Lynn Baer, a public art advisor, and our own Sarah Hotchkiss, KQED Arts Senior Associate Editor.
We want to hear your thoughts, your favorite public art piece in the Bay Area. You no longer just have to comment on the sculpture in Barcato Plaza. You can chip in with other things. The number is 866-733-6786.
If you can't get through there, try the email address forum at kqed.org. You can find us on social media, Blue Sky, Instagram, we're kqedforum there, of course. Or if you, as many people seem to be enjoying this back and forth about this sculpture, you can go over to the Discord and you can talk with some folks there about it as well. I'm Alexis Madrigal. Stay tuned for more right after this break. ♪
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Welcome back to Forum. Alexis Madrigal here. We are talking about public art in San Francisco. Maybe you've seen a very large sculpture of a woman on Embarcadero Plaza by the artist Marco Cochrane. The piece is called Our Evolution. That's kind of what touched all this off. We're joined by Sarah Hotchkiss, KQED Arts Senior Associate Editor, artist Cheryl Derricott, and Lynn Baer, Public Art Advisor. We got Julia in Mill Valley who worked with Marco Cochrane. Welcome.
Hi, thanks for having me on. Yeah, for sure. I just wanted to, because I worked with him for 12 years, and while he was building all of the sculptures, Bliss Dance, which is in Las Vegas, Truth is Beauty, which is in San Leandro, Our Evolution, which is now at Embarcadero, and then Gaia, the last one is me, that's also installed in San Francisco. And I just wanted to speak a little bit to his process and process
the comments I'm hearing about that he's sculpting unrealistic versions of women that are not real. And in fact, that isn't true. The way he sculpts is he's the model, whoever that is. And in the case of our evolution, her name is Deja Solis.
That is really her. She was 27 years old when the sculpture was made. She's six feet tall. She really looked like that. And she chose her pose. She chose what she was wearing.
Intending by the sculpture, he works collaboratively and doesn't direct anyone about what to do. He just says, "Say what you want to say. Tell me what you mean. Choose your pose." And then he sculpts it in clay and he goes through a whole process through tripling it and then tripling it again to get to that size.
Yeah, Julia, I really appreciate this context for folks who as they're kind of thinking through how they feel about this, it's really great to have someone who who worked directly. Also, people, where is the Gaia sculpture in San Francisco?
It's along the freeway. It's a reclining sculpture as opposed to tall. It's like up near, it's like sort of above where the Rainbow Foods is between Sherwin-Williams and Rainbow Foods as you're driving back and forth heading out toward the South Bay or towards the Bay Bridge. Cool.
it's there. Can I just ask a point of curiosity? What is it like to see yourself like at that size? Is it like uncanny, disconcerting, or is it fun? No, I just, you know, I was so used to it by the time it was the fourth sculpture we did together. And I was so used to the,
to seeing large scale versions. And actually really the reason for the enlarging of the size of the sculptures is the point was to have you be able to see
engage with the humanity of the person. You see the energy and the pose and what the person is meaning past the, really past the nudity. The point isn't that they're nude, it's that they're just a person and you can, um,
you can connect with what they're expressing, what the person is expressing at that size. He found when he was doing, because he was originally doing life size, that people would sort of avert their eyes and not look. And in the scaling up of the sculpture, he was more able to achieve his goal. And I don't know if anybody has read his book,
his artist statement about why he's doing that. And I, I kind of would like him to be able to express that as self himself. But if you want to know what, what his point and purpose is, he's there's extensive, there's information about it on his website. Cool. Hey, uh, Julia, really appreciate all that. Thanks for, uh, thanks for sharing that personal, uh, experience with us.
Cheryl, maybe I wanted to turn things a little bit here to just talking about other favorite public art that we see as someone who creates these things. What are the sort of pieces that you've looked to, whether they're monumental in scale or not, that you feel kind of embody what you love about public art?
Thanks for that. I think, you know, Lynn raised a number of the goals worthy work, for example. I'm always a fan of that in San Francisco. And I think it always, you know, is layered upon place, which is important to me.
You know, there's certainly been a number of really interesting temporary installations over the years on the High Line in New York City. Of course, that's a very well-funded private nonprofit that brings great sculptures on a temporary basis.
So many of those sculptures have been some of my favorites. The Simone Yvette Lee Brick House was one. And I think to, you know, this these two earlier questions about how this work is funded and where it gets placed.
I agree 100% with Sarah and Lynn that there's room for everyone to fund public art. We need private funding. Certainly the cities can't do it alone. And, you know, I should say that Freedom's Threshold is,
at Gateway at Millbrae Station was commissioned by the private developer Republic Urban Properties. But there was a lot of public process because that was a transit oriented development that was being built on a BART station in the city of Millbrae. So there was Millbrae Arts Commission involvement, for example, as well as city council.
I think this notion of representation is still a very interesting one to me. I know that I purposefully chose an image of Harriet Tubman that we don't often see her presented, a very elegant portrait.
I think that there are other sizable sculptures of women I'd just like to introduce into this conversation. You know, Palm Springs has had quite a great deal of debate over the Forever Maryland sculpture.
And I think, again, that's an example of when we idolize or fictionalize the female figure. It's not Marilyn Monroe oversized in every day. It's Marilyn Monroe from a movie where she played a character in a particular, you know, sexualized pose.
very different from the Shakira sculpture that's about 22 feet tall that was unveiled in Colombia that was a monument in her hometown on the beach by a Colombian sculptor. So I think we need to really pay attention to this notion of representation as well as funding.
I wouldn't say that Shakira's sculpture is necessarily not sexualized, but I see what you're saying. It's a real woman in her real life.
Yeah. From a video still of her. So it wasn't that, you know, they made up a version of Shakira. It was Shakira from her video. It was, you know, autobiographical in that sense, as opposed to the Maryland sculpture, which really did come from the character she played in the fictional movie, Seven Year Itch. Yeah. Yeah. No, that's a good point. You know, sure. I want to stick with you for one sec. Just, you know, it,
The discussion around public art five years ago, that is to say in 2020, you know, we were having this debate and reckoning about public statues and what we memorialize. And it's just it's quite interesting to me because it feels like did we learn things from that debate, you think? I mean, understanding the discourse is going to change and move and evolve and, you know, the dialectic continues. But what do you think we've taken from that 2020 period into now? Well.
Well, I always wonder what we take from anything in America. I find that the pendulum swings from one side to the other side. And I think most of us would be much happier if we ever got to an equitable middle.
I think that, you know, a lot of the dialogue about 2020 did raise the need for a diversity of sculptures in public places. I think the other undercurrent that it raised was that, you know, history is history. And when we look at the Confederate monuments,
They're a good case study for everything we're talking about. Those Confederate monuments were privately funded, many of them by daughters of the Confederacy. And so there's the funding side of it.
Also, they were idealizing a history that didn't happen because we know the Confederacy at that time did not win the Civil War. It remains to be seen where we go in 2025 forward. Dark show. So, you know, I think that's what we learned is that there needs to be a balance between real American history and then history.
of these mythologies of heroism we tend to uphold. - Oh man, Cheryl, so many good points there. Kind of just want to let him breathe for a second.
And also, Sarah Hotchkiss, you know, the show brought it around to the funding. Thank you, Eric. Yeah, no, I really appreciate it. You know, this listener writes, there was no public input. It seems that public art should receive public input. And we have a broader issue in San Francisco with the wealthy funding things that the public may or may not agree with. They're basically shoving their feelings down the throats of San Francisco residents because they have the money to do so. I think this is really comes down to this sort of balance, right, of public
We said earlier the city doesn't have the money to commission these artists, right? At least all the money on their own. On the other hand, if people are paying for something, they expect to get their way, right, in this way. And who else is giving hundreds of thousands of dollars to public art but the very elites that people are kind of talking about? So where do you think we go from here? How do you think we think about this? Well, I hope that the controversy around this particular sculpture –
kind of feeds back into the Arts Commission and Rec and Parks. And maybe, hopefully, there's been more feedback on this story than any story I've ever written. And I know that there have been articles and numerous publications. And when I watched the Arts Commission meeting last
Yeah.
I agree. I think maybe there should be a threshold. If it's over 30 feet tall, 20 feet tall, there is some public say, some public buy-in in what gets placed in our public spaces. Because even if it's temporary, it affects the way we view ourselves. It affects the way we view our city. It shapes our understanding of who we are in public space. And I think that that is important and should have public buy-in. Yeah.
Let's bring in another caller here since so many people want to talk about this. Jeff in San Leandro, welcome. Hi, thank you. What a fruitful conversation. I happen to be listening. I worked in the downtown San Francisco area for about the last 30 years and
The naked lady at the San Leandro BART station, I think it was called Truth is Beauty. That's one of my favorites for all the years that I stood on that BART platform. When she got installed, I felt like I had company and I wasn't so cold on the cold mornings.
The Salesforce building, I heard that conversation. I just want to say I think that's great when it's all colors or something. But when it has video going, all I can say is freeway driving hazard. I've left my lane multiple times trying to look and see what that is. Oh, no. Anyway, the downtown area can be a concrete...
and it's hard to find sculptures. I loved it when the hearts came up. I don't remember if there were cows. I think there were cows, and then there's angels and different bronzing tucked away, but one of my favorites was around Pier 14. This naked lady came with...
a child. It looked like she was walking up out of the bay into the city. And I used to love and could just go and sit there and take my lunch when it came. And she was made of all these different parts of bolts and shovels and, and she had chains for hair and it was gorgeous. And I wasn't attached to, uh,
where she came from, what was the process and who decided that or anything. I just was kind of like, wow, you know, she's here. And I, I do understand the policy, the rules and regs and the due process. Um, but we're never going to make everybody happy. So I think it's great if the due process cleans up its act and is able to happen in a,
legit way. But understanding that, yeah, it is true, obviously, that we're, and thank you so much, Jeff, for your thoughts on this. It's definitely true that it's very difficult to please everyone with public art. To that point, we were sort of talking up the point of infinity earlier on Treasure Island, and we have Ernst writing in to say,
The problem with public art is that it generally doesn't challenge the intellect or make any particular statement. In that category are things like the Point of Infinity on Treasure Island, the Big Lady on the Embarcadero, the Big Lady on Erie Street, and the Light Up Trees in Golden Gate Park. Better public art gives us something to think about that. Examples in this category include the Arson Mural Wall on the wall of the Muni Shop on 15th Street, the Shaking Man in Yerba Buena.
It's interesting. I mean, Sarah, I feel like how challenging should public art be? I mean, right there, I think there's like a real there's like a real question in this for me. It's sort of like how much should you have to think about the public art that you see and how much should it just be kind of like a respite from, you know, walk through the concrete jungle? Well, I think it depends on where it is, you know.
My favorite, my newest favorite piece of public art, since we were surveying about that is Craig Calderwood's giant mural in the new Terminal One Harvey Milk exit zone. So as you leave the San Francisco airport, you're just surrounded by this massive, colorful, cartoonish, super queer, weird creature scenery that's just fantastic. And you feel like, ah, yes, I have arrived in San Francisco. Yeah.
But that wouldn't be the correct thing or the right thing to put somewhere else in the city. I think that, you know, through the Maya Angelou monument outside of the library, that is very much about reading, about access to the library. The quote that Lava Thomas put on that piece is all about that.
how we're gaining access to universal knowledge through the library. Different places, I think, allow for more confrontation and questions, and not everything is going to be there to soothe. But sometimes we need to be welcomed. Sometimes we need to be, you know, invited into joyous, fun time in the park. Yeah, I think it just depends on the location. Yeah.
Yeah, go ahead, Lynn. Well, I agree with you. And I think one of the things when I'm working on a public art project, I think that public art should have – well, it should do two things. Number one, when you look at it, it's visually inviting. It can be – it can be – put you off. It can cause all kinds of emotion and calmness. And the second thing is that it becomes more relevant and more interesting if you know the backstory, if you know the artist intent.
And so there's two aspects to it. The second thing I think that in terms of what you're talking about, I love the idea of temporary because I think temporary like – Which it is. We should note this is temporary. Six months with a possible another six months. Right. Okay. I think that something like that can, like I say, engage people in this dialogue that we're having. And even when it's gone –
In people's memory, it might still be there and still allow for discussion. And I think, you know, Cheryl brought up the High Line in New York. I love going to the High Line. Whenever I go to New York, I always go on it because I'm going to see different things. Some I like and some I don't like.
but I know it's only gonna be there for a year. And so I'm a real big fan of, especially in public places, temporary. - Ah, that's nice. That also seems like a good lesson of 2020 as well. Maybe we shouldn't always have things in perpetuity. Maybe times change and we should have other things. We have been talking about the sculpture there at Embarcadero Plaza, our evolution by the artist Marco Cochrane, and the role of public art in cities, how it gets placed.
We've been joined by Sarah Hodgkiss, KQED Arts Senior Associate Editor. Thank you so much, Sarah. Thank you, Alexis. Been joined by artist Cheryl Derrycott. She is the creator of Freedom's Threshold Public Sculpture, honoring Harriet Tubman at the Millbrae Barge Station. Thank you, Cheryl. Thank you, Alexis. And we've been joined by Lynn Baer, who is a public art advisor. Thank you, Lynn. Thank you.
I'm Alexis Madrigal. Thank you to everyone who called in. Really appreciate everyone. Kept it nice while also critical. And thank you so much. I'm Alexis Madrigal. Stay tuned for another hour of Forum Ahead with guest host Leslie McClurg.
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playing May 2nd through June 8th. More info at berkeleyrep.org. Greetings, Boomtown. The Xfinity Wi-Fi is booming! Xfinity combines the power of internet and mobile. So we've all got lightning-fast speeds at home and on the go. That's where our producers got the idea to mash our radio shows together. ♪
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