Who Should Lead the Democrats?
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Who is the leader of the Democratic Party? It's a question that appeared to stump Minnesota Governor and VP candidate Tim Walz in a CNN interview last week. Sir, who do you think the leader of the Democratic Party is right now?

I think the voting public right now is what I would say. And I keep telling them, we're not going to have a charismatic leader ride in here and save us from this. Walls isn't the only one feeling a leadership void. Only 10 percent of Democrats in a recent Blueprint poll say their party has a solid strategy to deal with the Trump administration. So who do you think should take the party's reins and what should their message be? Join us.

Welcome to Forum. I'm Mina Kim. In a piece last month, The New York Times' Reid Epstein, after conducting 50 interviews with Democratic leaders, described the party as leaderless, rudderless, and divided. Democratic voters and activists have taken notice, showing their frustration in polls and town halls. This hour, we take a closer look at key disagreements in the party over how to counter Trump and his administration, and

And some unexpected strategies Democrats are trying, like going on sports radio. And we hear from you. If you're a Democrat or you're opposed to this administration, what would you like to see from your elected leaders? Joining me is Reid Epstein, politics reporter for The New York Times. Reid, welcome to Forum. It's great to be here with you.

Also with us is our own Marisa Lagos, politics correspondent at KQED and co-host of Political Breakdown. Hey, Marisa. Hey, Mina. So let me start with you, Reid. What made you describe the party as appearing leaderless, rudderless, and divided? What were you seeing and hearing in all those interviews? Well, a lot of different answers when we asked the sort of question that we just heard Tim Walz struggle with when he was on television a couple days ago. Yeah.

You know, the Democrats broadly have yet to really reckon with the reality that they lost the 2024 election and why that happened. And as part of their efforts to

sort of come to a universal explanation for why Trump won the election. There's a lot of internal finger pointing, a lot of explanations that you hear from various candidates about different issues.

And in that, there is a struggle for sort of attention and influence happening right now that is happening across the party. And some of that is a bit of shadowboxing ahead of the next presidential primary. But a lot of it is just Democrats trying to

sort of channel the frustrations of the base of their party and at the same time search for some sort of effective response to what Trump is doing in office as the president. Yeah, so if they don't agree on why they lost, I imagine they don't agree on how they could win in the future. What are you hearing, Rita, some of the different opinions

suggestions, areas of disagreement among these Democrats vying for attention with their constituents?

Well, there's certainly a broad agreement that they lost sort of men and young men and people who have sort of migrated away from the traditional media that you and I work in. And so we've seen a handful of different approaches for Democrats trying to reach those types of voters. Your governor, Gavin Newsom, has started a podcast called

where the first three guests have been right-wing figures. We've seen people like Senator Chris Murphy of Connecticut during Donald Trump's address to Congress last week. He hosted or participated in a live chat, sort of real-time texting response with a couple of his Senate colleagues that was hosted on the MoveOn website.

We've seen people sort of engage on TikTok and social media platforms that they had been on but hadn't quite dove full bore into before the election. And this is all sort of basically different people trying different things to see what works. It's almost a spaghetti against the wall strategy, basically.

But there are a handful of different Democrats who have different theories of how to reach those voters and at the same time, how to sort of increase their own platform and influence across the party. Yeah. How, Marisa, do you think people are reacting to this spaghetti against the wall strategy? For example, we have a listener on Blue Sky who writes,

Get it the F together, House Democrats and Senate Democrats. So they're actually pointing more specifically to the House and Senate. But I'm wondering if that's sort of the sentiment you're hearing. Yeah, I think there is a lot of frustration on the left about what they see as a really chaotic and sort of, yeah, unserious attempt to push back against Trump. Yeah.

you know, and I think that this is part of the problem we've seen for Democrats historically, but also in recent years. I mean, even when Trump was not president for four years, he was the clear leader of that party. I mean, there was a few fits and starts, but the Democrats don't really have anybody who fits that mold. And I think that that means that in that big tent of a

party, you have a lot of disagreements. You know, the James Carville argument, Dems should lay over and play dead to Bernie Sanders, who's going to red states and holding these giant rallies in an off election year. I mean, it really is an all over the board strategy. Now, let me just say, like, I think that there might be an argument for that. Like, I think, you know, they are still almost two years out from a midterm

Four years out from the next presidential election. If there's a time to throw everything against the wall, it seems that it would be now. But I think given how fast the Trump administration is moving, how extreme some of the things that they're trying to put into place are, a lot of Democrats are, quite frankly, scared and feel like they are not seeing a sort of strong enough and cohesive enough response from their party.

That Carville argument you're talking about, play dead, is that mainly based on the idea that like sort of let the Republicans...

implode in their attempt at governance or something? Yeah, I think his argument is like, I mean, he says this in this column he wrote that has caused a lot of consternation for both folks that support it and don't. But, you know, this idea that Republicans are good at making promises and this is his words, and they're bad at governing. And so essentially, Democrats should just hand them the rope, let them do all the things that they're threatening, and then, you know, sort of come in later and, you

say, you know, I told you so and here's our alternative plans. You know, I think there's probably a middle ground there. Like, I have a hard time believing that the entire Democratic Party is going to disappear from cable news and social media and all that, which is sort of at the heart of his argument that they should really just like back off. But I think that there is that sense among some people that, you know, if you...

I think the problem Democrats have with that is they don't like CNNs.

their constituents and the programs that they like cut and hurt. And I think that they are sort of stuck between a rock and a hard place because they're not sort of that committed to this if it means that they're going to see a lot of pain to programs that they support. We're talking with Marisa Lagos, politics correspondent at KQED, and with Reid Epstein, politics reporter at

For The New York Times and with you, our listeners, how are Democrats' actions or inactions, based on how you see it, making you feel? Who would you like to see lead the Democratic Party now? And what would you like them to say or do? You can email forum at kqed.org. Find us on Blue Sky, Facebook, Instagram, threads at KQED Forum. You can call us at 866-733-6786, 866-733-6786.

Reid, you reported that there is little consensus on whether or if to prioritize sort of traditional party concerns like abortion rights and LGBTQ equality and climate change. Where are you seeing any agreement, if at all, on a message that they think could resonate? Well, there's not much agreement anywhere on any message, right? The economy? I mean, the economy, probably the thing that has the most...

salience is sort of the idea that that prices going up is bad uh we've seen a lot of democrats talk about egg prices uh amy klobuchar the senator from minnesota has a whole bit that she does about egg prices chuck schumer the senate democratic leader has talked about it um but

In Washington, where I am, it is difficult to get people focused on egg prices when they see entire departments of agencies being shuttered and shut down in ways that kind of defy

the what Congress has allocated. And so you have this tension between people who want to talk about sort of the destruction of the federal government that the Trump administration is presiding over and people who want to focus on day to day concerns of the sort of voters who they think will be key to winning the next elections.

And part of the thing that Democrats are wrestling with is kind of which side of that fight to emphasize. And if they only talk about sort of kitchen table economic concerns and the sort of things that will matter to voters in Wisconsin or Michigan or Arizona, and not necessarily about the education department being shut down,

Then they have whole other swaths of voters that are angry at them for not fighting all of these battles. What they have not been able to do is connect the deconstruction of the federal government with day-to-day concerns of some of these voters in swing states. And that...

That may come at some point. It certainly isn't happening now. The tariff issue may be a place where once people start to really feel the effects of the tariff policy, they may be able to do so. But they haven't really alighted on a message related to

sort of the Trump and Musk actions in Washington with the real life experience of voters elsewhere in the country. Yeah. It's been Chuck Schumer, right? Who said, let's be selective about what we try to focus on and oppose. And it doesn't sound like read that's going over super well. Well, and Schumer has been a little inconsistent in how he's talked about this. You know, he, he,

had made the selectivity argument to a group of Democratic governors who called him

several weeks ago and basically read him the riot act for not opposing enough trump nominees uh and five days later he was in front of the treasury department at a rally sponsored by indivisible shouting fight fight fight saying they had to fight everything and so he too is uh reactive to some of the pressure that he and other senate democrats have been getting from the grassroots um

The problem for Schumer and Democrats broadly in the Capitol is they don't have a lot of levers to pull in this fight against Trump. Yeah, it's true. There are some serious structural issues.

or issues that they have to contend with. This listener writes, the only people effectively opposing Trump are the Canadians. Democrats should be taking notes from them. We're hearing from you, our listeners, how it's making you feel to see how Democrats are reacting or trying to counter President Trump and his agenda. And we're getting your thoughts on who you think should lead the Democratic Party.

And if they do, what do you want them to say or do? We'll have more with you and Reid Epstein and Marisa Lagos after the break. Stay with us. This is Forum. Support for KQED podcasts come from San Francisco International Airport. At SFO, you can shop, dine, and unwind before your flight.

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This is Forum. I'm Mina Kim. We're talking about the leadership void in the Democratic Party and why they've struggled to fill it, who you think should lead the Democratic Party right now, and what you think Democrats should do to counter the Trump administration's agenda. Marisa Lagos is with us, co-host of KQED's Political Breakdown and Politics Correspondent for KQED. Reid Epstein is also with us as politics reporter for The New York Times. And so are you, our listeners, sharing your thoughts today.

And questions, Rich writes, this is not who would be my first choice, but given the way many people vote, I would suggest George Clooney, another listener writes. Who should lead the only mildly active and vocal voices left in this government, Bernie Sanders or AOC? Marisa, before the break, we were talking on the Senate side about Minority Leader Chuck Schumer. What about on the House side? Talk about House Minority Leader Hakeem Jeffries. You've interviewed him.

How would you say he's handling this moment? Yeah, he has been probably a little more disciplined than Schumer. Reid might have more of an insight onto this. But yeah, I sat down with him before Trump was sworn in. And he really talked about, I think, something that we've heard a lot on the left this time, which is this idea that

They know that Trump wants to flood the zone and sort of overwhelm. And so they need to be thoughtful and, you know, sort of pick their battles and they can't kind of get freaked out and, you know, wigged out about every single thing that happens. Again, I think the challenge is like you're in the minority. Right. And so mostly what you have the power to do in that position is withhold.

hold your vote. And you have a really diverse caucus. I mean, this is something I think both parties struggle with in the House in particular.

I think it's fair to say that Jeffries is still very close to Nancy Pelosi, the Speaker Emerita from San Francisco, and that she is still advising him. And if you listen to what she talks about in her public statements, it's very laser focused on sort of Medicaid, protecting health care. These messages that, quite frankly, Democrats have had some success on running on, especially midterms in the past years, especially since Trump came around. But I think Jeffries is...

you know, trying to figure out essentially what the best path is. And I think some of these tests are going to become a lot more sort of clear and important in the coming months as we have things like, you know, obviously yesterday's vote on just the continuing resolution to fund the government through September. But there's bigger budget fights ahead, debt ceiling limit fights, the Trump tax cuts, like

I'm really fascinated to see, can Jeffries, you know, hold his caucus together and how do they decide to approach this? Is that what he thinks is the best move? Because at the end of the day, you do have members from very different districts who might be making different considerations. And like I said, I think in the past, the Republicans have been a lot more disciplined in some ways about withholding their votes than the entire Democratic side has. Yeah. That

That question about whether he can hold his caucus together, a lot of people have pointed out that Jeffrey's encouraged members to take sort of a dignified stand, have a dignified presence at Trump's speech. And it didn't seem like that worked out for him, which was calling into question some of his ability to lead. Let me go to caller Nancy in Berkeley, who's on the line. Hi, Nancy, you're on.

Hi. Okay. I am thoroughly disgusted with these cowardly Democrats. I mean, my God, we've got creeping fascism. Nobody remembers what happened in Germany with Chamberlain. I'm disgusted with them, foreign and domestic. We've got to get out there and fight. This is not a time for discretion and civility. This is terrible.

Well, Nancy, certainly some of the comments we're getting reflect what you are feeling. Reid, we saw a listener write in and say, like a Bernie Sanders or AOC, and you have reported on how Bernie Sanders is attracting crowds at rallies around the country. You interviewed him recently. Do you feel like he's one of the electeds making progress, being less cowardly?

I guess it depends on what your definition of progress is. He is certainly going out and doing what he has often done in his career in holding big rallies, trying to rally support. He's been a little bit more strategic. His events have been in congressional districts where held by Republicans that

that he thinks can be convinced or at least pressured to vote against some of the legislation that Trump has been proposing. And down the line, ideally for Bernie Sanders and Democrats, the Democrats could flip in the midterms to try to take back a majority in the House of Representatives. You were talking about Hakeem Jeffries appearing a little timid in this situation or more calculating perhaps.

And part of what he's doing is trying to present the best picture in his mind for Democrats to win back a handful of these Republican held House seats so that they can have a majority after the midterm elections, because that's really the key to short term Democratic success.

in Washington in stopping some of the Trump agenda is by winning a House majority next November and having control of at least one branch of Congress coming into the second back half of this Trump term.

Because if they were able to do that, they could launch investigations. They could block Trump legislation. There's all sorts of things they can do, but they have to win a House majority first to do any of those things. And can I just say, Mina, like, you know, that's both pretty far away and doesn't get to the underlying issue of like, what is it that...

You know, what went wrong for Democrats last year. And I just think that there's like a lack of sort of self-reflection. I mean, Reid has pointed this out in some of his reporting, like, you know, they just elected a new head of the Democratic National Committee. And I love this line in your story, Reid.

read a couple weeks ago about just like Democrats have no shared understanding of why they lost the election, never mind how they can win in the future. And to me, it seems like this would be the time to be having those tough conversations. Maybe, you know, in a nod to our governor here in California, maybe not talking to Steve Bannon, but maybe talking to people across the party spectrum and people who might be part of the Democrat coalition about sort of where to go moving forward. But that is not what is happening, it seems.

Well, Noel on Discord writes, no more Clinton-style centrists. It won't work. And another listener on Blue Sky writes, can't be anyone from California, especially the Bay Area. Republicans have done a masterful job of sullying the state, and Dems can't counter that narrative. It has to be someone more center, more representative of average Americans. Please, no Harris, no Newsom. Marisa, please.

Do you think anyone from California could help fill the leadership void? I know the recent news is how former SoCal representative Katie Porter has just announced she's running for governor this

I mean, you know, it is so hard to predict things in politics these days. But sitting here in March of 2025, do I think that the National Democratic Party and Democrats across this country are going to want to embrace, you know, Gavin Newsom or Kamala Harris? I have a hard time seeing that. But, you know, who really knows me? Yeah.

Reid, you seem to think that Adam Schiff, or at least you highlighted it in your reporting, Adam Schiff's appearance on the Midas Touch Network was striking. What about that appearance struck you? Well, I mean, we thought that was interesting just because it reached so many people. And that's part of what we see Democrats trying to do in this moment is

is to get a foothold in some of these mediums that Republicans really did well in heading into the election. And we've seen a lot of Democrats rush to podcasting the Midas Touch podcast for a few weeks in February was the number one podcast in America, topping even Joe Rogan and

That they we all have to do is look at the headlines of the episodes on their podcast feed to see the sort of content that is driving Democrats to at least download and listen to the show. It's each episode.

Each episode kind of presents an alternate reality of what's happening in the country. And if you just listen to their shows, you would think that Trump is about to crumble into, you know, into a dustbin and Democrats are about to take over the government when that's clearly not happening. Yeah.

But that's where there are a lot of listeners. That's where a lot of the Democratic energy is right now. And people like Adam Schiff are trying to tap into that, both to keep Democratic voters energized and to, frankly, present themselves as an alternative to what's happening in the country. Yeah, that appearance he had was to talk about that Oval Office meeting between Democrats

Trump and Ukraine's Volodymyr Zelensky, also J.D. Vance. And Adam Schiff went on to say that he was horrified and sickened, and more than 2 million people apparently watched that. And then I think, Reid, you also reported on how Ro Khanna invited, you know, a left-wing influencer who does news updates in Spanish to the Trump speech before Congress as well. So again, I think highlighting that, and I think for a lot of our listeners, it's

Working on messaging, what that messaging is and getting it out to a lot of people is something they would like to see. Lisa writes,

We need to spell it out. Let me go to caller Steve. Oh, sorry. Go ahead, Reid. I was just going to say, I mean, Democrats have all of these different explanations about things they need to do in media, things they need to do with their message.

You know, the one thing that none of them want to talk about or admit to is that virtually every elected Democrat in America for more than a year vouched for Joe Biden as sort of the one true leader of the party. When every poll that was published over a number of years showed that voters at large and Democratic voters in particular thought that Biden was too old to run and not equipped to serve another term in the White House.

All of these elected Democrats from Gavin Newsom down to state legislators and city council members, they all vouch for Biden. And the voter, there has been no public reckoning of that from any of these people who told their voters and the American people that Biden was up for the job when everyone watched during the debate, instantly decided he was not.

And that whole experience has been memory hold by the party. And it has not been discussed as a reason. You know, we're 30 minutes into the show and it's not discussed as a reason why Democrats lost. And none of these people who vouch for Biden have come out and offered any sort of public acknowledgement or apology for what they said during the campaign. Can I just like second that? I mean, it's wild to me that.

the DNC just elected this new leader and he seems completely uninterested in doing, you know, including that part of it in his autopsy of the party. And just in general, like,

It seems, you know, I think a lot of the things that are being taken, at least on the right, as gospel in terms of why, you know, Democrats lost when we talk about some of the culture war issues and and and just like the positioning of the Biden and then Harris campaign in terms of not, you know, you know, I'm thinking about the trans athlete and and, you

actually was really about trans prisoners and giving, you know, support to them, taxpayer support for medical transitions. Like that was a very successful attack ad by the Trump campaign. And it was not one that it seemed like Kamala Harris really wanted to talk about. I think Tim Walz has sort of alluded to this, that he feels like they should have been out there now. So in some ways, like, yes, it seems a little silly for these, you know, the Midas Touch thing or the sports podcast that some folks like Josh Shapiro, the governor of Pennsylvania, are going on. But in another way,

other way, like, isn't that actually the type of thing they should be trying right after be feeling? I think there was a feeling that they are sort of playing as part of politics that is not where we're at right now. That is an older style of politics, which doesn't reflect the media landscape, the electorate, all of those things. So, yeah, I just I can't

support that comment enough. It just feels wild to me that that is not a conversation happening right now. Yeah. Let me go to caller Steve in Sacramento. Hi, Steve. Thanks for waiting. Go ahead.

Yeah, I'm actually writing a book on this subject. And the reason why the Democrats are doing so bad, because all the people, you know, the elected officials and the operatives and everything, you know, I hate to use the term that they all that they live in a bubble, but but they do. And they have to open it up to to the people for ideas and suggestions, which you can't they don't do. They're completely closed off to the people's ideas and suggestions. And

And that's where the answer is going to have to come from, because these people, they're showing they're incapable of success. Well, there's Steve's diagnosis. Thanks so much for sharing that, Steve. Let me go next to Phil in Petaluma. Hi, Phil, you're on.

hi thanks so much for taking my call and i i just wanted to make a case for uh... i get gabby newsom style of unapologetic politics so to speak and maybe uh... that term would be fight fire with fire and whether it's got a newton self or just that kind of unapologetic approach i really believe button we kinda need to follow that uh... that game plan that

Republicans have been playing that for years, and it's clearly worked for them. And I think regardless of the issues, I think we just need to not apologize for them. We've been a bit too soft for too long on that. I mean, culture war issues, I think, still play a factor there, and I think we need to reconcile with the issues themselves. A great piece yesterday on political breakdown about what

kind of matters to individual voters there i think they were using that like example the sixty fifty five-year-old uh... a latin woman who met didn't that fairly uh... it resonate the the issues of trans rights or uh... uh... those kinds of things so i think we need to talk to take a big picture look at the issues but more so fight fire with fire with unapologetic politics

Well, Phil, thanks for sharing that. Marisa, I do want to ask you about Newsom's recent interview with, you know, the right wing Charlie Kirk. Newsom said he thought it was unfair for trans athletes to participate in girls sports in that conversation. What do you think about that? Oh, Mina, I have so many thoughts. We did a whole 25 minute podcast on Friday. I mean, look, I think that, um, I,

Having conversations about these different policy areas is really important for the left right now and to think about how some of them affected the actual election. I am personally just pretty baffled by what Newsom is trying to do other than just get attention right now.

Wouldn't it be a sort of more useful exercise, as I think I mentioned earlier, to be having these conversations, you know, within his own coalition or even with people that they're going to get could get into their coalition, centrist voters, maybe people who represent. I don't know that he represents like he could go talk to Republicans in California. Right. Like but talking to Steve Bannon and Charlie Kirk, right.

and sort of in a way that, I mean, if you listen to that interview, which it was very long and I did, so you don't have to, if you don't want to, I mean, he's not sort of, it was not a debate. It was not the Gavin Newsom bringing the fight that we saw when he debated DeSantis last year, or when he's gone on Fox news with Sean Hannity, it was very much him just sort of letting Charlie Kirk run roughshod over him and not just on the trans issues. So I,

I don't know. I find it pretty baffling. I think that, you know, he has succeeded in getting us to talk about him, but that's not going to be enough for Democrats. And I think there's some risks here in terms of the people that he is, you know, giving a platform to and that he is sort of allowing to set the agenda on this podcast. And, you know, I'll finish by saying

He is still governor of a state of nearly 40 million people with a giant economy and a lot of real challenges. And I think that if, you know, if someone like him wants to run for president or anything else, get your own house in order. Right. There's a lot of work to be done. So, you know, we'll see where this goes. But as of now, I'm a little bit puzzled.

I think you're right about attention being the end game for what he's doing. And that is a lesson that he clearly has learned from Trump and that, you know, the more attention he gets, the more he can talk about what he has to say. My what I don't fully understand is how he has time to be governor while hosting two podcasts.

It's a question that some listeners have raised as well. Reid Epstein is politics reporter for The New York Times. Marisa Lago is politics correspondent for KQED and co-host of Political Breakdown. And we're talking about the leadership void in the Dem Party, the approaches that they're taking, which ones are working, which ones are not so much, and what you would like to see, listeners. What you would like to see Democrats say or do and who you think should lead the party right now. Stay with us. This is Forum. I'm Mina Kim.

Welcome back to Forum. I'm Mina Kim. Listeners, who do you think should lead the Democratic Party right now? If you oppose the Trump agenda, a centrist, a progressive, a populist, a celebrity, you're naming all of them. Is there a way to get rid of the Democratic Party?

And what do you think Democrats should do to counter the Trump administration? Marisa Lagos is politics correspondent at KQED. Reid Epstein is politics reporter at The New York Times. And you can join us by emailing forum at kqed.org, finding us on our social channels at KQED Forum, and calling 866-733-6786.

Richard writes, if the Democrats in the Senate vote for the House budget bill passed yesterday, they might just as well go back to being the nothing they have become. Voting for this bill equals giving Trump a crown. But I'm not at all hopeful that the Dems will oppose them. Such fools they have become. Another listener on Discord writes, hell, some of these Democrats voted with the Trump propagandists on censuring Al Green. Get these lukewarm dinosaurs out. Trump will eat them for lunch with a side of ketchup.

Another listener, MK, writes, it's possible there will be a backlash against Musk chaos. And it seems to me the most articulate voice to dismantle the arguments of Teal and Musk is Ro Khanna. If you listen to him, he sounds like Silicon Bernie. Another listener writes, can someone please comment on why Elizabeth Warren is constantly overlooked as a Democrat that is speaking out and actively opposing the administration? Why isn't she minority leader in the Senate? Another listener writes, they've got to...

What about Senator Chris Murphy to lead and listen to? He has a brain and is moderate. We need that. Marisa or Reid, you want to take the question about Elizabeth Warren or the comment? I know you mentioned Chris Murphy. I can talk about Chris Murphy just because I've spoken with him recently about his strategy in this moment. And he has taken the posture that it's important, as he put it, to swing at every pitch.

And every time that the Trump administration does something that he finds abhorrent, that he should stand up and shout about it and make sure that people know he's opposed to it. And that means voting against all the cabinet nominees. It means doing an array of press conferences. He's doing so many press appearances that today the largest public high school in Washington, D.C., published a Q&A with Chris Murphy about what happened

the Republican legislation would do for funding in the capital city. Uh, and that's really a different approach than you see from some of the, the, some of the older, uh, members of the Senate, uh, leaders like, like, uh, Amy Klobuchar and Chuck Schumer. And so what he's,

He's sort of carved out this position for himself as the tip of the spear of the Democratic opposition to what Trump is doing. And a lot of people in the Senate and in the Capitol believe he's doing that as a precursor to run for president, which he might well be doing. And I guess time will tell whether that approach is one that attracts him more support than people like Gavin Newsom.

Well, Dan writes, can you please discuss the potential leadership role of AOC? Why must progressive advocates who should be fighting for climate and energy and social and economic justice keep apologizing and relating to the right wing? You want to take that, Marisa? Again, like this is sort of what happens after a loss, right? There's a retrenchment. There is a looking of the wounds. And then there's sort of a

you know, an attempt to see who rises above. I mean, I agree whether or not you love her politics, that AOC is one of the most sort of effective communicators in the party. Um, and I think it's been really fascinating to watch how she has actually, um,

you know, become part of the party fold and not just like this bomb thrower on the outside. So I definitely think she's somebody to watch. But, you know, she also is obviously a huge lightning rod for criticism on the right. She's sort of a controversial figure. I mean, I think part of this is like, is there a fresh face who can kind of, you know, talking about Warren, talking about her even, obviously Bernie Sanders, you

It's only been around for a while, but it is, you know, getting up there in age. I think there's a lot of sort of appetite, at least there was last year before Democrats were just sort of in defense mode, about thinking about, you know, some of these younger governors, Andy Beshear, Gretchen Whitmer, Wes Moore. And I will say Wes Moore has been out there quite a bit, I think, really playing offense. So, yeah.

You know, I mean, there's a lot of people in the Democratic Party. I think the question is just like, what are they what is their role now? And what do they think back to like what was the problem in 2024? Like, is this a policy issue? Is it a messaging issue? Is it the fact that, you know, they ended up in this position of essentially defending a system that I think a lot of people do feel like is broken? You know, I don't think any one person can kind of fill that void in this moment.

Let me go to Thomas in Sacramento. Yeah, read. Well, I was just going to say on AOC in particular, you know, she has a real decision to make coming up of kind of whether she wants to, you know,

put herself out there in the presidential discussions and become a national figure or focus her attention on the House. She is basically next in line to be the leader of the Democrats on the House Oversight Committee. And if they take a majority in the midterm election, she could plausibly be the House Oversight Chairman, which would be a very powerful position in the Congress. Thomas, thanks for holding. Go ahead. Hello. Is this me? Yep.

Okay. The Democratic establishment don't seem to understand what they're up against. It's the number one thing I think Trump has is he's brash and he appears to have guts and the Democrats have

don't have either going for him. So in this complicated world, people who don't have the time to study the nuances just are responding to that. A great deal of it is that. Because people who voted for Obama turned around and voted for Trump. So there's a swing voter in there

that you've got to get. The only guy who's got the message that Democrats need to embrace is Bernie Sanders. He blows everybody else out of the water. AOC and Elizabeth Warren are just as good, but they don't, they're not clicking like Bernie is. Bernie simplifies things. And the Democrats have got to understand it's the message, it's the message. Stop reacting to invented ideas

Republican issues like the disaster at the border or the transgender stuff and simply and succinctly explain how that is all jive. It doesn't affect anybody. And the effect of the immigrants coming over the border is they prevented the recession that was predicted when Biden was president. Every economist agreed, oh, there's going to be a recession. Why wasn't it?

bipartisan congressional study said it was the immigrants coming over the border. Why didn't the Democrats run on that? I think I have a sense of what you're...

The core of your comment is, and Matthew writes, I'm a lifelong Democrat whose heart has been broken by the Trump auto coup. I'm angry at my party for its elevation of victimhood and lack of spine when they were in power, e.g. the filibuster. Most troubling is the inability to speak in everyday language to connect with voters. I see a moderate Democrat like Senator Fetterman as our only hope to regain power. He talks like a regular person and is willing to call out far left activists.

So this thing earlier, you touched on... Not a lot of agreement. I mean, I think, I mean, it's like this, I feel like our colors are illustrating the heart of this challenge for Democrats. It is. It's the heart of this challenge. And there's a couple of questions around that. But just real quick on the regular person thing. And Marisa, you had touched earlier on this attempt to try to go on sports radio. Reed, this is to talk about sports, right? Not to talk about politics.

politics on sports radio, I imagine. And is this all about trying to sound like a regular authentic person, something that Democrats have struggled with is maybe in part because of the whole Biden fiasco? Very much so. And your last caller basically said that Democrats have a vibes problem. Yeah. And that Trump sort of presents a vibe that is attractive to a lot of people. And Obama did too when he ran in 2008. And I think that's sort of at the heart of this, of what

We see a lot of these governors who are, you know, Josh Shapiro is doing play by play of college basketball games and Wes Moore is picking football games on Friday afternoons on the radio and here in Washington. It's about having people get to know them in a way that's a little bit divorced from the policy discussions that happen in a political campaign.

Because if if a listener to a sports radio show has heard some of these Democrats on and thinks, you know, I like I like them, then that's more powerful and more important for their political future than whether that same listener agrees with them on issues X, Y and Z.

And Marisa, to your point about how, you know, what we're seeing reflected in our listeners' responses is the difficulty of a unified message. I mean, ultimately, is a unified message unrealistic? Do Democrats need to adjust to the idea that the party stands for many things, some inherently conflicting sometimes, and that it's okay just to really focus on your own constituents? It's like, hey, if you're a Democrat and you're

you know, Walls is having success on sports media or sports radio, or you're not hearing about something that, you know, a more centrist person in the Midwest is saying, but it's galvanizing the party faithful or more voters are bringing more into the tent. Like, you're okay with it.

Yeah. I mean, there's kind of two different things here, right? There's like individual elected Democrats and whether they're reflecting their districts and their constituents. And then there's like the sort of broader party and where the message goes from there. I mean, you know, I think that some of this stuff we're seeing with the rise of these like podcasts, not just going on sports podcasts, but like, you know, the ones Rita has written about that are sort of these leftist answer to, you know, the Fox News is and the bench appears of the world or whatever, like,

You know, I think there's an argument that that should those that experimentation should be happening and all of that. But, yeah, I think that that is what is hard about both that party and just the moment they find themselves in without, you know, so far out from a primary and any sense of who will sort of emerge as the next president.

you know leader of this party and given you know I think I think I keep thinking back to how things were the first time around when Pelosi at least for part of Trump's term was speaker and you had somebody who really had the ability to capture that national attention because she had been around for so long and honestly I think because Republicans had put her in so many ads and things that she was this national figure I don't think either you know Schumer or Jeffries or

Most of these people have that kind of ability to kind of grab the megaphone. And I think that's a big problem because on the other side, every time Trump opens his mouth, it is international news. Yeah, right. I mean, breaking through is really, really hard. But do you think that there's any kind of reluctance on at the level of Democratic leaders to step up like because of fear of, you know, retribution or because they're just fatigued?

I think it's more just like they're trying to sort out what's actually the most practical way to approach what is a very overwhelming, I think, situation politically. I don't know that there's fear as much as there is just not a cohesive sort of strategy and decision. And that's why you see such a mix of folks from Murphy to AOC to, you know, the Carville argument. Yeah.

I would say there is also some fear, particularly among governors, Democratic governors who have something concrete that Trump can do to them if they if he gets angry with them or they don't publicly comply. We saw him.

threatened the governor of Maine when the governors were all in Washington a couple of weeks ago. And there were governors who have been chatty for years who did not want to address Trump on the record with reporters at that meeting because they said privately they were afraid of retribution from Trump and didn't want to risk Trump pulling funding from their states if they were publicly critical of him. Hmm.

Let me remind listeners you're listening to Forum. I'm Mina Kim. Well, this listener on Blue Sky writes, the Democrats need a moderate leader with charisma. Jon Stewart pointed out how Chuck Schumer falls short of this goal and somehow Barack Obama has lost his charisma. He would have made a great elder statesman. You know, I would love to get your thoughts on past...

On our past presidents, there was a piece in The Guardian that was basically calling out the silence from former occupants of the White House and calling it deafening. Do you have any thoughts on or insights on that, Marisa, or what is happening there? Do they have that much sway?

Yeah, I think that this is always a challenging one. And I think also it speaks to how Trump has upended politics. Right. There was a sense pre-Trump that the best thing to do as a former president was to kind of, you know, melt into the background, let the next, you know, not usurp the authority of the next person, whether or not they were Democrat or Republican. And that just like you, you know, you had served your time sort of. Yeah.

I mean, look at George W. He's apparently out there painting, not talking politics. But it's also just like Democrats can't go back to the same well. Right. I mean, Barack Obama served two terms. So I think he has a place in the party, but I don't think he can be the head of the party again. That's just like not realistic. Yeah.

Richard writes, we need a strong, clear, unapologetic voice from the center. Governors like Gretchen Whitmer come to mind, but surely there are others, I hope. Another listener writes, please mention Senator Mark Kelly. Another listener, Barbara, also says they've been impressed by Arizona Senator Mark Kelly. Judy writes, I'd like to hear less about who is the next party leader and more about how the current party can mobilize and consolidate a coalition of Democrats, independents, and moderate Republicans concerned about the chaos and destruction we're witnessing. You keep saying that congressional Democrats have few levers to

polls. So use the power of the people. Let me go to Dale in San Francisco. Hi, Dale, you're on. Yeah, I just wanted to give a shout out to Kamala. When one looks back, there was hardly a mandate won by Trump in the national vote. It was like one point five percent or something. And for a Bay Area liberal woman, black woman to come in, as she did with three months to run, was pretty astounding. And it just seems like the if

As a matter of fact, I think if we had a do-over vote now, she'd probably take it by a few percentage points. But I think the Dems just need to kind of keep focusing on what Trump is doing relative to what they said they were going to do. I saw a great ad recently where they were talking about how Kamala was going to pick

thing was to save social security. It's like running that mixed to what they're doing right now would be a pretty powerful message for the team.

Well, Dale, thanks for sharing that. Let me see if I can squeeze in BJ before the end of the hour. BJ in Oakland, you're on quickly, if you don't mind. Yeah, I think the question is not what the Democrats can do. It's just what should be done. The problem, the reason that Trump got elected and the reason he's able to dominate now is because the people who voted for him voted.

watch and listen and read news sources from a vast, what is now a vast system of misinformation.

And, I mean, think about it. These people said their primary concerns were inflation and high prices. Trump was proposing things that would increase prices and inflation. And I don't think these people ever knew that. Well, BJ, thanks for that, because I want to hear from our guests just before the end of the hour. We have...

90 seconds left, just what you think are the biggest structural issues outside of Democrats control that they're going to need to confront? And is it what we're hearing a lot of people saying, which is just breaking through existing communication channels, some with misinfo and even some disinfo? Or do you think it's something else? Marisa, I'll start with you.

I mean, we saw a real realignment. I agree that this was a close election, but of coalitions and there were a lot of groups, including men of color and others that shifted not entirely to the right. But but they did in this election and it handed Trump, you know, this pretty significant victory. So I think that some of this is really thinking harder about like who is their base, who are they speaking to and what?

you know, what is the most effective way to get those messages out, but also like, what are those messages and how are they going to kind of rejigger them given some of the pushback they've gotten? Um, and, and just the distrust apparently that exists on their ability to, to turn things around. Read 20 seconds.

I mean, one thing to watch is whether Republicans use their power in Washington to come after some instruments of Democratic politics. We've already seen ActBlue, the fundraising operation, has had some trouble. And there are signs that Republicans are going after other sort of structural Democratic organs to try to damage the party in the long term. Yeah.

Reid Epstein, politics reporter for The New York Times, thank you so much for being with us. And Marisa Lagos, politics correspondent for KQED, thank you as well. And thank you listeners for sharing, for venting, for offering your insights and hopes. And thanks, Susie Britton, for producing the segment. This is Forum. I'm Mina Kim. Funds for the production of Forum are provided by the John S. and James L. Knight Foundation, the Generosity Foundation, and the Corporation for Public Broadcasting.

Thank you.

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