Why the Mission-Style Burrito Defines the Bay Area
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From KQED. From KQED in San Francisco, I'm Alexis Madrigal. New York has the pizza slice, Philly has its cheesesteak, and Chicago the hot dog. In the Bay Area, our iconic street food has long been the Mission-style burrito. Its origins are obscure, but for decades, these enormous cylinders of food have been a culinary staple.

Nowadays, though, Mexican food has become more regional. It can be expensive or cheap, and it's become wildly diverse, too. So what is the place of the Mission Burrito now in this new landscape of Mexican food? That's coming up next, right after this news.

Welcome to Forum. I'm Alexis Madrigal. We are talking about mission-style burritos today, and we'll get there. But thinking about this show really sent me back into our archives for a show we did about a book on red sauce Italian restaurants. You know the kind, they make a bunch of different dishes generally smothered in red sauce. And once upon a time, this kind of place and its lasagnas and manicottis were synonymous with Italian-American cooking.

It was a kind of food, after all, invented in the U.S. And then, perhaps you could peg it to the 1990s, a new era arose where you could get regional Italian food. Northern Italian, Roman, Sicilian, Ligurian. That is to say, after a period of compression into Italian-American food designed for maximum popularity, the cuisine expanded back to its real size.

And I wonder if Mexican food, as symbolized by the Mission Burrito and particularly in the Bay Area with our massive array of different communities of immigrants and their children and grandchildren, is undergoing a similar evolution. It's one that recognizes the beautiful variety of flavors in Mexican cuisine, not as a replacement for the standby carnitas and carne asada, but as an expansion.

Anyway, let's talk burritos. Joining us this morning, we've got Cesar Hernandez. He is associate restaurant critic with the San Francisco Chronicle. Welcome.

Hello. How you doing? Good, good. We've got Dominica Rice, who is chef and owner of Bombera, which is a Mexican restaurant in Oakland. A really, really, really good one. Welcome. Thank you, Alexis, for having me today. And we've got Ricardo Lopez, who's owner of La Vaca Birria, which is a Mexican restaurant here in the Mission. Welcome, Ricardo. Welcome. Thank you. Good morning.

Caesar, all right, let's talk a little bit, catch people up, you know, mission style burrito. Just like how do what makes it different from any other kind of burrito and like whatever its core characteristics are?

I think the main one has to be its imposing size. It is a food that represents the working class Bavio's kind of ethos, style, taste. And it comes from, you know, the urban legend is that it was created for firemen in the 60s.

And I think its legacy today is kind of the super category at most taquerias, which is adds guacamole and sour cream and an abundance of ingredients, I think, is its most telling characteristic. Yeah. I mean, what are the kind of core fillings? Rice, beans, meat, guacamole, sour cream.

I think those are sort of like, and cheese, those are sort of like the main ones. Yeah. Dominica, you grew up in Los Angeles, right? So what are your associations with these? Oh my God. So I grew up in the 70s and 80s in Los Angeles. And I've, for me and my family, my grandmother's from Chihuahua, Mexico.

So she's a northern desert woman. So she would only make flour tortillas at home and she would buy corn tortillas in L.A. So for us, for me, like...

It was mostly like breakfast burritos. And for me, I remember as a child, like, oh, my God, my grandmother really loves me because of this. It's like, actually, it's just that she's a really good chef. But she also really loves me because she took time to make me a breakfast burrito. And it was just it really struck me as a young kid when I was like, I don't know, seven. I was like a revelation. I'm like.

She's amazing. She is amazing. So it's like tortillas and flour tortillas as a Northern Desert woman is a Southwest woman. I'm also, it's a birthright. Yeah. I didn't share. I mean, I grew up in a corn only household. You know, my dad's dad's family's from central Mexico. So we only had like, that was it. In fact, like flour tortillas were kind of looked like,

Side-eyed, you know, at that time and going to, you know, taco trucks and taquerias in L.A. when I was a kid still living there. It was it was only like street taco style stuff.

Ricardo, how about you? I mean, you're a Bay Area native. Did you just grow up on Mission Burritos? Yeah. I mean, it's just weird hearing it being called the Mission Burrito to me. It's just a burrito. Yeah. You know, so I didn't even know they were called Mission Burritos until I saw it, I think, on Beat Bobby Flay. That's what you call it. OK. But this was always, you know, multiple times a week. You were always, you know, having burritos and just a way of life in the Bay Area.

Did you have a standard spot and a standard order? Always asada. Most of the time, no guacamole and fresh avocado. I just don't like most guacamoles that have tomato or onions. It's not my preference. And just anywhere local. Yeah. How about you, Dominique? Well, for me, I moved to the Bay Area in 93. And so...

to pursue cooking and being a chef and hearing so much about the Bay Area, I just knew it was for me to be here. But still being a student and young with no money, that also means you're going to something that's kind of comforting. And so Pancho Villa on 16th was my spot. I was there all the time. And

Definitely. It was always kind of like a carnitas burrito. I'm a carnitas person too. Yes. Cesar, I mean, of all of us, you probably have tried the most, right? I mean, you must sample like what, 40 a year? Yeah, that sounds about right. Yeah. Do you have, give us like that kind of landscape right now of places, both in the Mission and, you know, across the Bay.

So I think my interest in, I guess, like sort of reporting was always looking at sort of what's the established norm and also just trying to see the folks who are trying to like expand that. So I think classic, you know, mission style burritos, I am partial to La Taqueria, though there is some argument about whether or not it's in that category because it doesn't have rice. Hmm.

But I think it's one of my favorites. El Farolito is classic. But I think folks who are doing something a little newer are like Ricardo with La Baca Virgen. And I think he's infusing some of those smoky flavors from northern Mexico. But also just in general, I think smoke is a beloved flavor in Mexican cooking. And then there's...

you know, big contingent of breakfast burritos. My favorite is semilla, which I think sort of gets at what Dominica was talking about with this like home style breakfast burrito, which is just like eggs in a simple guiso. And it was just incredibly comforting. She's a pop-up and she's going to open up a spot soon in SF. And then there's like regional spots that have flowered out of a lot of these new regional style taquerias like

El Burro Veloz in Antioch has incredible guisado burritos. There's like 40 different TJ style spots, which have most recently sort of like popped up in Hayward of all places. And then there's Sonoran style that came out.

a couple years ago with Tacos Mamacuca and she's also in Hayward. And then there's California style burritos have made it big out here recently. And what is it? I mean, you know, that's another one of those terms. I had never even heard that term until quite recently. I just, I guess it's the San Diego style really is what that is, right? It's just, I think the main thing is fries. Fries. Fries is their starch. It's one of the starches. Yeah.

And Senor Sissig, Frank Grizzlies. There's just many spots who have sort of adopted it into there. Like, I think nowadays the thing is a spot just does multiple styles of burritos in one place. Dominique, do you like these or not? The fries-based? I like everything fried. So, yes. I don't...

I know my husband's from San Diego. I'm from Los Angeles. We both have made San Francisco Bay Area and Oakland our home for the past 30 years. But we always talk about our spots and how like, oh, the burritos are great, but it's not like a San Diego. So San Diego is very intense with the carne asada and just carne asada and maybe a couple of frijoles and then like some guacamole. Right.

So it's very more of a narrow cylinder. But for the Bay Area, you know, it has lechuga, lleva todo. It has everything. So it's wrapped in, like, foil to make sure it doesn't just, like, you know, explode. But for me, I definitely remember growing up in Los Angeles, and most of it was guisado. So for us, it was, like, chili colorado, carne de res en adobo, salmón.

puerco en salsa verde. So for us, it was mostly like no lechuga. It was mostly just the carne, guisados with a little rice and beans and usually a nice...

squeeze bottle of salsa on the side. But I do like how Pancho Villa has a huge salsa bar. They win awards for their salsa bar. And that was like an eye opener for me when I was young. Ricardo, so when you're looking at the landscape, what did you want to bring to it? You know, we heard Cesar kind of talking about you're bringing this kind of smoke flavor, northern Mexican beef. Yeah, I mean, we just pretty much dissected the entire burrito and

how can we make every ingredient just, you know, stand on its own and just make it something that really just made me happy. I thought, hey, we need some smoke in here. We need some fire. And, you know, to play with fire every day is pretty cool. Yeah.

Were you coming out of other Mexican restaurants or coming out of dining, cooking? Yeah, yeah. I started working in restaurants at 15 and then just really a bunch of different restaurants. It was never really focused on like, hey, I want to learn this or that. You know, it was...

Just trying to make money. Yeah, just pretty much. That's what really it turned into. And I think over the years since we've opened and just we're constantly changing and just trying to make sure I'm still happy with what I'm making.

What would be an example of something where you're like, okay, we hit the upgrade button on this? Our grill. When we first started, we were doing, you know, pre-cooked the proteins and then we'd flash it on the plancha to order. Then we started doing it fresh to order on the plancha. Then we got a propane grill. Then we got a Santa Maria grill using charcoal. Then we just switched to firewood. Uh-huh.

So it's just a progression and, you know, I'm probably going to go down to L.A. and buy a new grill this week. Wow. Just something that really can bring more intense smoke flavor. Yeah.

It's kind of amazing, actually, just like when you hear restaurateurs talk about like all the different levels, right? Like all the small improvements that could be made, all the ways that you have to think about food and cooking right there on the spot, you know, versus like home cooks. You know, we don't really think about all this most of the time.

We're talking about the legacy of burritos here in the Mission and across the Bay Area. People put a new spin on them, why you love them. We're joined by Ricardo Lopez, who is owner of La Vaca Vidia, which is a Mexican restaurant in the Mission. Dominica Rice, who is chef and owner of Bombera, which is a Mexican restaurant in Oakland. We've also got Cesar Hernandez, who is associate restaurant critic with the San Francisco Chronicle. And of course,

you know, what are your places you go? What burritos do you like? What innovations are you interested in? 866-733-6786. Forum at kqed.org. You can find us on all the social media things. We're at KQED Forum. I'm Alexis Madrig. We'll be back with more right after the break.

Support for Forum comes from the University of San Francisco School of Management. Celebrating 100 years of partnership with the Bay Area business community, the USF School of Management connects students to the city's vibrant culture, hands-on internships, and a wealth of career opportunities.

where AI and sustainability are integrated into every facet of business education, and where students bring innovation, ethics, and entrepreneurial leadership to a planet in need.

The University of San Francisco School of Management. Change the world from here. Support for KQED podcasts comes from Earthjustice. As a national legal nonprofit, Earthjustice has more than 200 full-time lawyers who fight for a healthy environment. They wield the power of the law to protect people's health, preserve magnificent places and wildlife, and advance clean energy to combat climate change. Earthjustice fights in court because the Earth needs a good lawyer.

Learn more about how you can get involved and become a supporter at earthjustice.org.

Welcome back to Forum. I'm Alexis Madrigal. We're talking about Mission-style burritos, also known as burritos. The people putting new spin on them, why you love them. We're joined by Dominica Rice, who is chef and owner of Bombera, a Mexican restaurant in Oakland. Cesar Hernandez, associate restaurant critic at The Chronicle. And Ricardo Lopez, who's owner of La Vaca Vidia, which is a Mexican restaurant in San Francisco's Mission District as well. Let's add a little bit of a twist to this.

Let's add another voice here. Victor Escobedo is owner of Papalote Mexican Grill. Welcome, Victor. Hola, ¿qué tal? ¿Cómo estás? Muy bien. Thanks for joining us. Thanks for joining us. So what do you think? You've been in business for 25 years in the mission. Who were the people you were looking to when you were creating Papalote who you felt like were making the best burritos in the mission at that point?

Well, my aunt Celia moved here in 1960 and she opened Celia's restaurant in San Francisco. And a whole bunch of people opened restaurants from her. Whoever worked for her pretty much opened a restaurant. So after 60 years, there's like 100 restaurants that came from that. She had the espresso burrito, which was a wet burrito. And it was like refried beans, chile verde, rice. And then she would put enchilada sauce on top, guacamole and onion and tomato.

So I didn't want to be in the restaurant business, but I ended up doing it after I ordered it forever. But really, to me, the burrito is Mexican food

Americanized, right? Like Henry Ford meets Mexican food. And so Mexican food, there's a lot of people and there's a lot of poor people in Mexico. So there's a thing called Conasupo and they would give you free rice, free beans, kind of like rations, you know, almost like communism, but you could go to Conasupo and get some really cheap rice and beans. So the staple was so that everybody would eat

they would get rice beans. And then if you could afford some meat, you would use what you had available, which is every region has different peppers, right? So in Yucatan, you have habanero. In Jalisco, you have serrano. Dry chili is in northern Mexico. So...

All these dishes came up depending on the region, right? In northern Mexico, you have a lot of cattle, you have a lot of small animals and like goats in southern Mexico. So you put that all together, usually eat it on a plate with corn tortillas and you kind of like use them as like little chopsticks. Instead of chopsticks, you use a tortilla to like scoop everything up, you know, so you're not eating directly with your hands.

But so that rice bean combination of that plus a local dish based on the protein and the vegetables of the region, like chilies.

that was brought to the United States and it was all put because of convenience and mass production. It was put in a flour tortilla, right? So it's a Mexican dish and a flour tortilla and all wrapped up. That's what a burrito is. Yeah. And, you know, we met last night, we met Miguel Jara and he's the creator of La Taqueria.

And he opened so many doors for us in the mission, you know, because he created a destination. If Papalote was alone in any city, it would be so hard for people to, for me to get people to come here. What he did is he inspired other people like me and like Ricky to open a burrito place in a burrito mecca, right? That burrito mecca is the mission.

And before Chipotle, you had to go to the Mission to get a burrito like that. I would say even after Chipotle, you have to go to the Mission to get a burrito like that, right? Absolutely. The basics of rice, beans, the guisado, the local... Well, not local because it's here, but people remember. People bring their suitcases and whatever clothes they can get when they come here to...

look for a better life, and they bring their recipes, right? And the memory is triggered by flavor and by smell, you know? So you'd be totally different environment. You know, you come from Cuautla, Jalisco, and now you're living in Hayward. What am I going to do? Well, you can come home and eat some Mexican food. So people brought their recipes. Yeah.

And yeah, so that's that's to me, that's the mission burrito. It's the way this thing was, you know, Mexican culture was brought here. And if you take a burrito to Mexico, they're like, hey, you're not from here. And if you take a burrito here in San Francisco, it gets deported. You know, so it's it's my experience. I'm not Mexican. I'm not American. I'm a mission burrito. Let's bring in Richard in Piedmont. Hey, Richard.

Hey, how are you? You know, the reason why I'm calling is to see if I can relocate this deli. This was a small deli in the Mission, and this was around 1982, and I worked at San Francisco General Hospital, and people used to wait for lunchtime to walk to this little deli, and in the back, you could get a chicken mole burrito. Oh, la, la. Yes.

And ever since then, I've been looking for a place that serves this chocolate chicken mole burrito, and nobody else serves it. It was just, it had everything in it, guacamole, sour cream. And there's a restaurant in Montclair, El Agua Vera, and they make a mole. And when I asked them to put it inside the burrito, they look at me like I'm crazy. Right.

Yeah, thank you, Richard. I mean, there is this incredibly rich history of people selling burritos out of the sort of back of the deli. Dominique, I'm going to come to you in a sec on mole in general. But Victor, I have to let you talk about your chicken mole and burrito at Papalote, which is one of my faves.

So my dad is from Mexico City, and my abuelita used to make us mole con romeritos, which is a green plant that is just available everywhere. Again, it's poverty food made with. So mole takes a long time to make.

We found out a way to make it in a really short time, but it's still really good. We have chicken mole and then we have a tofu mole as well. It's a vegan mole and it's not the best representation of Oaxacan mole, but it'll, for that craving, it'll, it'll do. And it's, it's, it's a good mole. It's not awesome. It's not great. It doesn't really represent Oaxacan mole because for that you have to go to Oaxaca. But here it's,

The flavor, my dad hit it. My dad nailed it. So I stole the recipe from my dad while he was asleep. And now we're 26 years. So yeah, chicken mole and tofu mole. It's available at Papalote. So you're welcome, sir. Yeah. Dominique, talk to me about making mole in your restaurant or in your home.

Or maybe you don't. I'm constantly making mole. That's what I do. That's my job every single day is making mole. And I have smaller moles, like smaller sauces that are quicker. And then I have elaborate moles. And then there's seasonal moles. So I go into the fall craving the dark chocolate moles. And that's a bigger process because there's more ingredients. And...

But then right now, because, you know, one of my favorite farms is back and delivering in the East Bay. And that's Blue Heron Farm in Watsonville. And they're now their greens are amazing. So the best green onions, cilantro. So this time of year, I'm always craving the mole verde. And I always do that with just a fresh green.

base of, of course, peanuts and onions. But then the freshness comes in with garlic and all the greens. I'm using about four different types of greens and then two types of chilies.

for that sauce. And so like last week I made, I usually make maybe one big pot and I was like, okay, that's good for two days. No, that was gone in one night. And it was just like, holy moly. Okay, more tomorrow. So it was like, it was great. But I know like for myself with

You know, it's a very special thing. And I'm always kind of like, God, maybe we shouldn't be making moles all the time because these are really things just for special occasions. But then, you know, being able to go out in the Bay Area is a very special occasion. So I guess we do deserve to have moles every day. Do you ever try the thing? I think it's the Enrique Olvera thing where he essentially makes a mole that's like the sort of like...

The madre and then he keeps it for like 30 days. I've actually, I tried to, I guess it was two years ago. I tried to do it. I tried to like keep it going, reheating it day after day, making new ones. I mean, it was really good.

But it was a lot of work. I mean, it's like a month of work to try and get what he was doing. Right, right. No, it's really beautiful because when I built the second restaurant, which is Bombera, I was really lucky that most of my team wanted to come with me. We were thinking, okay, does Cosette want to be a co-op? Do the owners want to work? So it was Dominique's previous restaurant, which was at Swan's Market in Oakland. Exacto. And so I was thinking maybe the staff wanted to do something different.

you know interesting I turned it into a Mexican kind of model but they were just like no we want to go to the new equipment we want to be in the center of Oakland so we were able to get a wood oven and a grill and so part of the mole that I like to do at some point in the night is when we start putting it into the wood oven for an hour and then it

is able to pick up what you normally see when you are in Oaxaca, where people are roasting and firing and simmering over leña, so over a wood fire. So we try to throw that into the wood oven for a good hour just to reheat it or to finish it or some part of it is getting roasted in there. And there is that time when you do have maybe a quart left

And you're adding it to the new. Yeah. And it's reduced. It's sweeter. The sharpness of any weird chili acidity or garlic is sweetened now. So it is very much. I love the fact that Enrico Alvara kind of shared that with the audience of his clients of just like seeing like.

The contrast of something just made mole and something that's been maybe sitting for two days and roasting in the oven. Yeah. It's also, yeah, it was kind of a beautiful little ritual, particularly during the pandemic when it felt sort of like, what is time? What is a day, you know, to just do that each day? Yeah.

Cesar, we're going to run through. We've got a bunch of people shouting out their favorites. I was just going to see, you know, get your mark on these different ones here. Pancho Villa on 16th Street, Rick writes, has some of the best in town. Also some agua fresca also. What do you think, Pancho Villa?

Yeah, it's solid. I feel like I'm on the spot here. Yeah, yeah, sorry. But yeah, I can throw them at me. Yeah, all right. El Buen Sabor on 18th and Valencia. They like the veggie California there.

Yeah. Uh, I just don't like lettuce and burritos. That's, that's a personal preference. Yeah. Dominica does. I know. Uh, uh, proving, proving, you know, we contain multitudes. Uh, Chris writes, um, I've always loved El Matate in the mission. They have yummy mole and fish tacos. Burritos aren't so incredibly huge, which helps with finishability, which I actually didn't know that was a quality, but finishability makes sense to me. Uh,

What do you think, El Matate? I agree. I agree with his assessment. I think, yeah. Also, I like this one. Kelly's Deli when you go into Home Depot for breakfast. Oh, my God. I have such a huge... I wrote this essay about...

Kelly's because I used to like most Mexicans work with my dad who worked in construction and I had this weird relationship with Home Depot but now I have a reason to go to Home Depot because there's this Kelly's Deli that sells in my opinion one of the best breakfast burritos and it's not because it's like using the best ingredients it's just because it's like it's that feeling of serendipity that you can just kind of walk into this place and have like a

banging burrito at any home most Home Depot's in the Bay Area actually wow that's so good also here's an unusual shout out to Maya Taqueria in Point Richmond yeah they're one of the first oh Maya that's at the Halal spot that also has a location in Oakland oh maybe it is maybe it is yeah I like them too they're cool let's go let's bring in Marina in San Francisco welcome

Hi Alexis, hi everyone. I'd like to give a big shout out to my favorite taqueria in the Glen Park District of San Francisco, that's La Corneta. And I've been going there for years or maybe it's decades.

And I've told the owner that, and I've posted this on Facebook, is that it's typically my last meal when I leave the Bay Area, and it's my first meal when I come back. It's the super baby fish meal.

with salmon. It's like a baby salmon burrito and has the other collar. Yeah, finishability is high there. Yeah, it's a tiny, it's a little tiny burrito that it doesn't feel like you're eating like this huge large meal. It's just like baby size and it's wonderful. So a big shout out to La Cornetta at Glen Park. Thank you so much. Yeah, I love that. Thank you so much for that. Hey Alexis. Yeah.

I wanted to point out that when I opened Papalote, and I'm sure Ricky and everyone else, the last thing we had in mind was to enter a competition.

We chose to open a business. We like some type of food. And Ricky just said, I made the burrito until I was happy. He didn't say I made the burrito until I knew it was better than papalote. No, he did. He said that in the break, though. You didn't cut me off. I know he did. But really, the competition is happening in Europe.

heads, not ours. No, no, no. I agree. I'm not trying to set different. I think there's obviously there's just so many different types and styles and people are all fine. Not you. And this kind of makes sense to shout out. But I don't want it to turn into like what's happening with before we used to deal with food critics. Now we're dealing with comments on Google and Yelp

that we're reading each one of them and saying, don't you know that there's one star because I'm not your favorite restaurant? You're not my favorite taco place, so I'm going to give you one star. That is hurting our rating. That is hurting our business. And during the pandemic,

when all these businesses shut down and Papalote was able to keep going, I felt like I was in the middle of an airplane accident with bodies all around me. People were losing their livelihood. And the last thing I wanted to do or anybody thought of doing is like, well, at least those... Oh, good thing those people went out of business. You know, now I can thrive. No. So you guys...

When you go to your favorite restaurant, the Fabuloso that they used to clean, the Cook's Cologne, everything comes as soon as you open the door. It's Pavlovian. You're like, I am home. I am where I'm going to eat. Right. So Papalote or La Bacaviria is never going to replace your favorite burrito place, but it's an option. So you don't always have to have Panda Express. You can come to a real authentic Chinese restaurant.

I don't know why I just made that into a challenge. But, you know, yeah, support local businesses and support KQED by going to kqed.org. You've been listening through the pledge drive. Thank you. Thank you, Victor.

Let's see. We've got some other comments here, some other ones here. Michelle writes, there's nothing like a homemade flour tortilla. Soy pura, chicana, third generation, and that's what I make at my house. I don't eat Mexican food out that often since I cook at home, but my go-to is taqueria Cancun. How hard is it to make flour tortillas?

Oh my God, it's so hard. It really is. It really is. Isn't that hard? But it's a great, it's a great practice. And, and I now I'm happy to say I'm really happy with my, I make a beef tallow tortilla at home and I make that for my family. My,

Mostly my husband, Carlos. Hola, Carlos. Professor Carlos is, I'm his biggest fan. But it is really difficult. I'm not, I don't have a lot of patience. You're working with gluten, so you have to be patient. And my grandma was like this kind of like Jedi person.

grandma, you know, she does a total night. She's a complete, you know, she already knew she was, you know, five steps ahead of everybody. And so she was just the best. And so I'm still kind of like practicing her thoughtfulness and meditation and patience. Yeah. And that's what you need. I agree. I grew up making floreto tortillas with my grandma who I

didn't know growing up that she's from Sonora because I was associated with Mexicali, which also has its own flour tortilla culture. But it is extremely difficult. It's tedious. It takes a long time, which is why a lot of people don't make them and they go with one that's already pre-made. But the difference is pretty stark. My Mexican grandma pretty much never cooked a day in her life. She was not that kind of Mexican grandma.

We are joined by Cesar Hernandez, associate restaurant critic with The Chronicle. We've got Dominica Rice, chef and owner of Bombera, a Mexican restaurant in Oakland. Ricardo Lopez, owner of La Vaca Vidia, a Mexican restaurant in the Mission. And Victor Escobedo, owner of Papelote Mexican Grill. Of course, we're taking your calls and comments. We'll get to a bunch more right after the break. I'm Alexis Madrigal. Stay tuned. Stay tuned.

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Welcome back to Forum. I'm Alexis Madrigal. It's Friday. We're having some fun in the studio, talking about burritos, Mission style, of course, but also people putting new spin on them, why people love them, how they're changing. We're joined by Victor Escobedo, who's owner of Papalote Mexican Grill. Ricardo Lopez, who's owner of La Vaca Vidia, which is another spot in the Mission District. Dominica Rice, chef and owner of Bombera. And Cesar Hernandez, associate restaurant critic with The Chronicle.

Let's go to the phones a little bit and talk to some folks. Doris in San Francisco. Welcome. Hi. Good morning. Thanks for taking my call. I wanted to highlight my dad's taqueria in the Tenderloin. He's been there since 1995. It's called Taqueria La Paz.

And he makes amazing chimichangas and wet burritos. Stuff that I used to grow up eating when I was younger. Now, I don't eat them as often, but I just wanted to let you know. What kind of sauce are we talking about on the wet burrito?

He does a red sauce and a green sauce. And he has mole if you smile at him and maybe wink. Hey, thank you, Doris. Dominique, I know that you like a wet burrito. Yes, yes. And I think it's very common in Oakland. Most of the places, that's their thing. And I love that. I want to see more of the...

burrito ahogada with chile verde that would be nice to see more of that I know like southwestern you're kind of wanting exactly you walk into like any place in Albuquerque and it's like red or green like you know where do you where you're going so for me like a chile verde is truly one of my favorites so

I would love to see. I'm going to visit all these places that I've already said. They do a Hogada Verde. I'm ready. Yeah, yeah. Ricardo, what do you think of the wet burrito? Every once in a while. Every once in a while. Like Chimichanga, I've actually never had one. So I'm going to make sure La Paz is my first. Oh, my God. Yeah. That's where I'm going. Yeah, sometimes I feel like, you know, where I grew up...

A lot of the white people where I grew up really loved chimichangas. So I almost had this thought in my head, like it was almost racist, you know? It was like borderline racist to like chimichangas. Let's see. Let's go to Dee in Concord. Welcome, Dee.

Hi there. Hi. I'm in Concord, and I'm looking for a good burrito because I'm having a hard time finding one. Any recommendations? Good one, Dee. I wish we had Blanca here in the studio. She said El Molino. Yeah, El Molino. Yes. Or El Burro Veloz in Antioch.

Oh, yeah. That's pretty close by, right? Yeah. And you love that one, right? Yeah. They have incredible guisos, like super good barbacoa, like beef barbacoa and like papas con like ribs. It's just good guisados. Sounds good. Let's go to Maria in San Francisco. Welcome.

Welcome. Hello. Thank you for having me on. I'm going to make this quick because I've got to go to work. I have a controversial story. My dad, Angelo Padilla, brought the burrito to San Francisco. He was a butcher by trade. He was working as a wholesale butcher delivering meats. He was delivering meats to La Cumbre, which was back then in the 70s a butcher shop.

They were families, they were tight. And he said, you got all this square footage here, you're not doing anything with it. You know, you should have a deli. And they're like, well, we don't know the first thing. He says, well, I'll show you. So he showed them how to set up a deli, how to make prepared meats and whatnot. Showed them how to make tacos and burritos. My mom looked at him. She said, you're giving away the house.

And so they both opened up their own shop. It was called York Meat Market, Carniceria Latina on 24th and York, across from what used to be the Brava Theater. And I have a feeling that the individual who was talking about the mole burrito, that that's where he found it. It was just a couple blocks away from the hospital. The hospital, yeah. Yeah. I mean, I love it because...

The burrito has many fathers and mothers. From what I can tell. And it makes sense to me. I mean, you know, we went back to this SF Weekly article. You can find it on my Blue Sky. It's so funny. It's from, you know, the early 90s. And, you know, they have different folks. And thank you so much for that story, Maria. And shout out to Angelo Paria, your father. We've got another woman, Juanita, who is maybe at Mirancho. There's just...

There's the original El Faro. Cesar, I assume you've tried to track this down or at least have a passing interest in the history here. Yeah. So Faro seems to be like who a lot of people point to. And if I'm not mistaken, Cumbre or there's one other that like was credited for like the 40 and kind of like creation, the production line. Got it. Got it.

Yeah, it's interesting. I mean, what do you think, Victor? Do you think you can pin it to a particular person or place? Well, in chatting with the owner of La Taqueria, he said that La Cumbre used to be a meat carniceria and that, yeah, they closed for like a few months and they opened up as a restaurant and that they featured burritos. But

You know, how do they teach him how to do the first burrito when they hadn't had burritos before, which came first, right? So, but again, it's about the destination. In restaurants, it's about destination. And I have the salsa in stores too. And if I only had one salsa, for instance, at Whole Foods, it'd be hard for people to discover me. But

Right now there's a company called Yahuahaca. One of the brothers, there's three brothers, two of them are in Oaxaca. One of them is here making it a business. And Yahuahaca makes salsas and they also make morley. So it's a new company, we should support them. And the reason I want them to succeed is because if they succeed, then we have a better category in stores, just like we have a whole bunch of really good burritos in the Mission and the greater Bay Area because

Like Concord has great burritos. You know, San Jose, Moran has a few good burritos. Actually, they don't. They don't. But yeah, Oaxaca has great mole. It's really, really good. So, yeah. No, I love it. It's clearly something that was kind of a communal creation with a bunch of different folks. Yeah, no, I totally agree with that. Let's go to Bob in San Francisco. Welcome, Bob.

Hi, welcome. Thanks for having me on. So I grew up in Indiana and there was no culinary magic. Super rural. My store was garlic salt and ketchup packets from McDonald's. And my dad was lucky to pass this off. I moved to Pacifica 25 years ago and with not exaggerating, probably two burritos a day for two years straight. I didn't have any food in my house.

And I was lucky enough to live by El Granado Oro, which was at Tortilleria. So it was always fresh tortillas. They invited me to their family reunions. It was wonderful. And Papalotes is probably my favorite. It's getting a lot of love. So I'll give a shout out to the El Pastor, which I find that hard. I'm a really picky El Pastor. So the El Pastor at Las Matates across from City Toyota in Daly City, if you're an El Pastor fan, they've got terrible chips, but they're El Pastor in the top three.

Hey, thank you, Bob. Thank you, Bob. So here's one of my controversial opinions. Mm-hmm.

I really like when burritos get stripped down to beans and cheese. And in particular, the one at Komal, maybe someone here has had it on the phone. I think they're so delicious. They're so cheap, too, from that place. And it's the kind of thing you get. You get it for your kids. It's like when you order the buttered noodles at an Italian place and then it comes for your kids and you're like, actually, you sure you don't want to switch? They're so...

so good. And I sometimes wonder if high quality refried beans in particular can be just like the full burrito. You don't actually need any of the meat or any of the other stuff. What do you think? Absolutely. You agree with me, Cesar? Yeah, absolutely. I just feel like a lot of the norms of burrito culture have to be adopted. And I think there are places that do sell them, but I don't think that

The Bay Area is like in love with the bean and cheese, but there are some great ones out there. And I think if I could get a bean and cheese of Mama Kuka's, you know, like frijoles, charros, like whipped spice with chilies and they have chorizo on them. If I could get a burrito of just that, I would I would be in heaven.

I mean, as someone who refries all kinds of beans, I do think there is something that makes it so good. How much do you think about the beans that are going into your burritos at La Baca Vidia? A lot. So up until recently, we only had refried beans. You know, we don't serve whole beans in the burritos. I think just refried just brings you the flavor. But it's a multiple-day process.

So it's like it costs us more money to do that. But, you know, it just depends who you ask. I just got a one-star review, I think, on Monday who said my burrito was like mud because of the beans. So, you know, everyone has their opinion. But, you know, we just started on some of our dishes. We use Chivo Blanco beans from Oaxaca that we cook those with smoked chicken, grilled jalapeno and onions. And that's just more of...

Something just to go pair better with the dishes versus like a burrito. Yeah. Dominica, I mean, I feel like a lot of the time we don't necessarily, we wouldn't necessarily know that there was a special bean in a burrito in the Mission. At your restaurant, of course, we would know these sorts of things, yeah? No, it's really, really, really important. And also, you know, for...

Mexican Americans, but also anybody who's, you know, born and raised in California, regardless of your nationality. The thing that we have, it's like, it's kind of a go back to birthright or ancestral. So, you know, I'm currently like growing three types of beans at Bombetta and at my house just for myself and my crew. but then we also, um,

purchase a lot of really nice red bean from Dirty Girl Farm. They have this really beautiful crew of Oaxacan farmers who bring back different types of heirloom beans from their small town. And if it catches on and the owners like it and the market likes it, this is part of our job as a farmer, supporting farmers markets. I support Ecology Center at Berkeley and at the Oakland border. So I donate to them. I also...

you know, purchase in bulk and a lot to make sure that next year they come back with the same chilean beans. And Alvalos Farms has a great pinto, a great cranberry bean. So I'm, it's definitely an important wash your frijoles, please people.

And simmer, simmer, simmer. Don't start boiling too roughly. Oh, interesting. You know, Alexis, you have a green thumb. Remember that Mexican food is about hard labor. You need to eat so you can work all day. But la milpa is a way of growing corn.

and keeping the ground fertile. So corn, beans, and squash, you grow them together, and that's a perfect way of growing corn. And so you have corn for the tortilla and beans for the protein. So it's ancestral. It's essential. You don't have to make it super fancy. So I think you just tap into your ancestors by really identifying with plain beans and tortilla. You know, that's what it's all about. So...

Good job being a super mix. Let's go. Some people want to shout out some vegan Mexican food here. Let's see. Dorothy, welcome.

Hi. First time caller. Just want to say thank you to Papalote and give a shout out. I've been vegan for more than 18 years. Grew up in Southern California and Mexican food. Just never really felt accessible to me. You really had to look for it. Then my boyfriend showed me Papalote. You have a great vegan menu. It had vegan mole, which I never heard of or had. Tried it. It was amazing. Changed my life. So every time I'm in the city, I always make a point to stop by Papalote. So thank you so much. Yeah. Thank you, Dorothy. Appreciate that. Try Taqueria La Venganza.

Oh, yeah, that's right. That's right. Tackle the 11-gun on Telegraph there. It's just might still be in Oakland, might be in Berkeley. It's right on the border there. Josh in Oakland. Welcome. Hey there. Long time listener, first time caller. Thanks for having this important discussion. I'd like to shout out El Matate in the mission on 22nd in New York.

I'm a meat eater, but their vegetarian burrito has cabbage, carrot, zucchini, broccoli. I've even seen some eggplant in there. It wins on having a lot of vegetables in the vegetarian burrito, but also on distribution. You're not going to get a whole bite of rice and then a whole bite of beans and then a whole bite of guac. It wins on construction, and I'm loathe to be on the air to shout them out because they're going to get really popular, but it's always been a go-to for me.

Yeah. Hey, thank you, Josh. Appreciate it. Appreciate that. I love, I love people's like, um, different ways of describing what they like. I want to, I want to hear from you because it right. I heard in that one, you know, distribution and construction. You heard finishability earlier. What do you, what do you, what do you think Ricardo? Like, how do you, what are the words in your mind when you're sort of assembling a burrito where you're like, okay, this is, these are the qualities we're looking for. For me, just balance, making sure everything's balanced. As simple as that for me. Yeah. Yeah. I love that. Um,

Let's, okay, we got a bunch more comments here. You know, I must call out, Courtney writes, I must call out the genius chefs and artists at La Palma in The Mission. Yes. The most delicious, I mean, their flour tortillas. And their beans. My God, yeah. Sometimes, yeah, they're, they're, they're almost feel like they're just short of like finish. So when you warm them up, like, you know, at home, it like just adds the final finishing touch to them.

They also say yes to have the refried black beans and the chicken tinga and the blue corn tortillas as well. Steve writes...

I think La Coroneta in the Mission is the best burrito or Mexican food I've ever had. My second favorite would be the Carnitas Burrito from the food truck outside Best Buy on Harrison. I'm excited to check out La Paz for Chimichanga. Norman wants to shout out La Burrita on Durant in Berkeley. Been my favorite for almost 40 years, Norman writes.

I love their ground beef burritos better than any asada. Fighting words from Norman there.

Brian writes, I grew up in the Sunset District in San Francisco. Had my first burrito at Gordo's on 9th between Lincoln and Irving. They kept it simple, still great. Shout out to Chico's in Benicia and Taqueria Los Gallos Express in Pleasant Hill. Brian also lived in San Diego for eight years and remembers being totally confused by burritos down there with fries and otherwise.

Last couple of takes from people here. Taqueria Guadalajara with the Asada Super Burrito Con Todo lived in San Francisco from 2007 to 2011. Practically tried them all during that time, which is impressive. And Vaughn wants to shout out Taco Sinaloa as well.

Any last, do you want to shout out any last places here, Ricardo? Me, El Carajo. That's going to be a spot for sure. Where is that? There, I believe, on 22nd, but I could be wrong. Okay. Yeah. They're on 22nd. There you go. 22nd, El Carajo. Cesar, you want to shout out one?

I'm going to get us out of San Francisco a little bit. I want to shout out Tacos Tacariel Compa in San Jose that does California-style breakfast burritos and chilaquiles burritos. That's a whole other can of worms. I also want to shout out...

La Piñata in Vallejo, which I think is truly one of the greats. It's a little bright orange truck in Vallejo, and I think they make just some of the best suadero in the Bay Area. And I think there's just so many. I think for sure the Mission, if you want the classic Bay Area style, it's in the Mission. That's where you're going to find the best.

And I think the distinguishing thing like papalote salsa or like someone's rolling technique or even the exclusion of rice. I think those are the things that make them stand out. So that's what I'm always looking for. I love that. We have been talking about the legacy and future, really, of burritos here in the Bay Area. People put a new spin on them. Why we love them, where we love them. Been joined by Cesar Hernandez, associate restaurant critic with the San Francisco Chronicle. Thanks for joining us.

Thanks, Cesar. We've also been joined by Dominica Rice, a chef and owner at Bombetta. Thank you.

Thank you. And shout out to my team at Pombera. Gracias, Momani, Leo G, Anita, Meli Meli, Pamphila, Adora, and Vicky Vicky. Beautiful. Ricardo Lopez, owner of Lavaca Media. Thank you so much for joining us. Thank you. And I was told I was going to see Cesar here. Oh, yeah, it's true. I know, Cesar. Victor Escobedo, I was told I was going to see you here. Thanks for joining us, man.

Appreciate it. Thank you. Shout out to my brother, Pastor Papi, opening soon by Union Square. Beautiful. The 9 o'clock hour forum is produced by Grace Wan, Blagatoris, Francesca Fenzi, interns are Brian Vo and Jesse Fisher. Jennifer Ng is our engagement producer. Judy Campbell, lead producer. Danny Bringer and Chris Beal are engineers. Katie Springer is operations manager of KQED Podcast. Also, Ethan Toven Lindsey and Holly Kernan are great. I'm Alexis Madrigal. Stay tuned for another hour of Forum Ahead with Mina Kim. See you next time.

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