Yosemite and Other CA National Parks Underfunded, Understaffed this Summer
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From KQED in San Francisco, I'm Mina Kim. Coming up on Forum, the Trump administration's budget and staffing cuts to national parks could mean longer lines, closed visitor centers, and fewer search and rescue workers this summer, according to former park staff and advocates. The cuts are also compromising scientific research and environmental and species protection, creating what the National Parks Conservation Association calls a facade of a national park experience.

We take a closer look at the turmoil inside the National Park Service and what it means for your next park visit. Join us.

Welcome to Forum. I'm Mina Kim. It's the time of year when visits surge to California's national parks, but former parks officials and advocates say the National Park Service is not okay. This hour, we take a closer look at the impact of the Trump administration's unprecedented funding and staffing cuts to the 109-year-old system, with more slated to come, and how it could affect your next visit.

Listeners, have you already noticed changes at one of our national parks? Or if you're planning a visit this summer, what questions do you have? 866-733-6786 is the number. Or post on Blue Sky, Facebook, Instagram, or Threads at kqedforum or email forum at kqed.org.

Joining me first is Russell Gallipo, former superintendent of Channel Islands National Park and now executive council member of the Coalition to Protect America's National Parks, made up of current and former parks employees. Russell, welcome to Forum. Well, thank you. I appreciate it. So tell us about Channel Islands National Park. And for those who make the trek and the boat ride, what are they rewarded with?

Oh, great question. You know, I think what's really important is that everybody understands all of our national parks were created by Congress because they had national significance. And the Channel Islands, that's the Galapagos of North America, species that only exist on these islands in the whole entire United States and the entire world. So you are...

you're going to experience a world very different than the continental United States. Yeah, I saw images of the island fox. It was really amazing. Yeah, the island fox, a species that the National Park Service, with the support of the local community, brought back from the brink of extinction because of its significance. You've called Channel Islands and our national parks our national and cultural heritage. What do you mean by that?

You know, our national parks, when Congress set up the National Park Service, it said we were to conserve the scenery, the historic objects, and the wildlife therein in an unimpaired condition for the enjoyment of future generations. They tell our story. They tell us about who we are as Americans from a natural, a conservation perspective, and a historic, a cultural perspective.

Yes, I understand that the oldest human remains were found there potentially at the Chumash at Channel Islands and so on. So Russell, you retired in 2018, and it sounds like adequate resources, it's always been a challenge for the park. But how do the funding and staffing cuts that are happening now compare? Yeah.

Yeah, that's a great question. In fact, when I was at superintendent, we had already been down in staff and budget by 20% because of sequestration cuts that were done in the early 2000s.

So we have to make priorities on what it is we need to do. So a place like Channel Islands, we went through some pretty rigorous review inside the park. And that's what's different about what's going on now versus what we had to do before. We had the opportunity to look at how do we meet the park's mandates? What is it we need to monitor? What is it we need to do to provide a great visitor experience?

But what's happening now is they're just cutting without any thought to what's important about that place. And remember, Congress established that place, said it was a nationally significant place. And now how do we take care of it if we're being indiscriminately cut? So one of the things that you've been concerned about is what those cuts do to the visitor experience. What effect are you worried this will have?

Well, I can speak for Channel Islands and also for some other parks. You know, many places, they're used to some long queuing lines to get into a park as an entrance station. Well, let's talk about what happens inside the park. Why did you come there? And if you experience things like dirty restrooms because there's not enough janitorial staff to take care of them, your attitude starts to diminish. And if you see that the park's not being taken care of, then maybe you won't take care of it.

But some of the things you don't see is that we are relying more on volunteers and cooperators to provide basic park orientation and some basic park services. You know what's even worse? We're having to reassign park employees that are archaeologists, wildlife biologists,

to provide for visitor services. Why do we do that? Because we want you, the visitor, to have a great experience. But what gets neglected? The protection of those natural and cultural resources, the very things you came to see. How important is the visitor experience to the sustainability of a national park? I'm wondering what connection there is to visitation and people's investment, I guess, in it.

Well, I think that that's a great question because everybody visits a national park for a different purpose. Some folks are coming because they like the physical challenges of going on a hike and going on a hike within a beautiful setting. Others come for intellectual knowledge. They want to learn more about our history. They want to know more about our natural resources.

So they come to get stimulated. But there's also others that come for mental and emotional reasons. It's a place for them to escape from that city. I mean, imagine you live in Los Angeles day in, day out, all that traffic, all those people. You come out to the islands. You may be one of only 100 people out there. And so you get to revive yourself and others come out for spiritual purposes. It's a way for them to connect to something bigger than them. And our national parks, they do that.

And through those positive experiences, I imagine they're more likely to become advocates for the park as well. Noel on Discord writes, Channel Islands National Park is great. Camp out on Santa Cruz Island and hang out with the foxes. So Russell, I'm wondering what effect all of this has had on rangers, staff at the park, on staff morale?

Staff morale is low. It is awfully low. And the reason why it's low is they don't know what to expect tomorrow. Are they going to be forced into a reduction in forces because of a reduced budget? The budget they're calling for in 2026 is a hit of about $900 million to the National Park Service. That can mean just a few things. Less staff, less discretionary money to do your work. But you know what else it could mean?

We may not be able to take care of all the National Park Service units, over 430 units of national significance. So what is not important nationally for us in order to tell our story of who we are as Americans? So I don't know if listeners know the range of duties that a park ranger, National Park staff have. I understand even in your own career, you've fought fires, right?

Absolutely. You know, we think that the ranger you meet, that's all they do. Hey, when times are tough, we ask rangers, we ask administrative people, we ask natural cultural resources and management folks to step up and do collateral duties that are outside of their job description. But we know they're only going to have to do it on a limited basis.

But we also ask others to train to become specialists like in firefighting or law enforcement. Why? Oftentimes we have these national emergencies. I left the Everglades for a two-week period to help fight a fire in Oregon. I've had friends who have gone on details after a hurricane struck the Everglades to help them rebuild their facilities, help them inventory their resources.

We've sent law enforcement officers across the United States whenever there's a special event that requires more law enforcement folks at a local park. So what this means is with a reduction in staff, we're not going to be able to help out these other places when a national emergency comes up because we've been told, or at least the parks have been told by the current administration, keep your doors open, keep your services going.

Well, it's going to be harder and harder to do if there's a national event. Let me go to caller Hunter in San Francisco. Hi, Hunter, you're on.

Hi, yeah, I just want to say I really love the conversation and everything that's being talked about. I experienced when I went to Yosemite before Memorial Day weekend, I actually purposely also wanted to talk to staff, you know, to see how they were feeling. And a couple of them said that they were fired and then recently rehired in, you know, fear of Memorial Day weekend and summer. And I just noticed that there was lots of things that were closed. Every time I saw trash, you know, I always pick it up and just

I always told staff that I was like, I hope everyone is nice to you because I know they're doing a lot. And so I see it and I just I'm I'm going to be shocked, you know, when summer comes around and I wouldn't be surprised if there's like an increase of injuries at our national park. Hunter, thanks for sharing that really recent experience. How free are rangers to talk about what they're experiencing, Russell?

They're not free. They're not free. What they're, you know, first of all, they have to be cautious. You know, they work for an administration. The job of the administration is to enforce the rules and regulations of the park.

And, but really what the ranger sees their job is, is to provide for the enjoyment of those park resources. That's their number one purpose and their number one goal for the visitor. And people like Hunter, when we encounter them and we see them helping us out, we see them or hear them thanking us, you know, that lifts our spirits a lot.

And so that's all I would ask people is when they go to the national park, understand the pressure they're under and whatever you can do to help, because they're going to do whatever they can do to help you have an enjoyable experience. And Russell, you still are encouraging people to visit California's national parks this summer, even with everything going on. Absolutely. I'm encouraging that because what more to encourage budget cuts than

than to have people not visit their parks. And all of a sudden, the administration thinks, "Oh, that's not an important park. Nobody's going to it." No. Go visit your national parks, no matter which one they are. Remember, and I want to keep pushing this idea, not an idea, a fact, that Congress created these parks. Yeah, the National Parks Service did an intense study to show that their national significance is valuable to our culture and our heritage,

go visit those places. Because what would California be like? We would know what it would be like without the Yosemite, but what would it be without Manzanar or Golden Gate or Santa Monica Mountains or Cabrillo National Monument down in San Diego? These are all places people go to to learn about who we are as Americans.

Russell Gallipo, former superintendent of Channel Islands National Park, retired in 2018, executive council member of the Coalition to Protect America's National Parks, a nonprofit organization made up of current and former parks employees, really appreciate having you on, Russell.

I thank you and thank you for your callers. I appreciate them coming out to support the national parks. Yes, join us callers. Are you planning a visit to a national park this summer? What are your questions? Have you noticed recent changes already at your favorite national park? Have you worked in a national park? What do you wish more people knew or just share what they mean to you, the parks? You can email forum at kqed.org.

Find us on Blue Sky, Facebook, Instagram, and Threads. We're at KQED Forum. You can call us at 866-733-6786. That's 866-733-6786. More after the break. I'm Mina Kim. Support for Forum comes from San Francisco Opera. Amidst a terrible storm, Ida Mineo promises the god Neptune that he will sacrifice the first person he sees if he and his crew survive the tempestuous waters.

But as he arrives safely to shore, his relief transforms into horror when the first person he lays eyes upon is his own son.

This summer, venture into the storm with Mozart's sublime opera, Idomeneo. June 14-25. Learn more at sfopera.com. Greetings, Boomtown. The Xfinity Wi-Fi is booming! Xfinity combines the power of internet and mobile. So we've all got lightning-fast speeds at home and on the go! That's where our producers got the idea to mash our radio shows together! ♪

Welcome back to Forum. I'm Mina Kim.

We're talking this hour about the impact of the Trump administration's budget and staffing cuts to the National Park Service and what you might see at your beloved National Park in California or beyond. And I want to bring into the conversation Ashley Harrell, National Parks Bureau Chief for SFGATE. Ashley, thanks so much for being with us. Yeah, thanks so much for having me. Also, Neil Desai is with us, Pacific Region Director for the National Parks Conservation Association. Neil, really glad to have you too. Good morning. Good morning.

And listeners, of course, join the conversation with your questions about your next visit to a national park, what you should know before you go, or share any recent changes you may have noticed, or if you've worked in a park, what you wish people would notice and know more. So, Ashley, let's take a step back. What has the Trump administration done to the National Park Service since taking over? So, basically, at this moment, there are not nearly enough people working in the national parks across the country, and...

That's not entirely new. Parks have been understaffed and underfunded for at least two decades, as Russell mentioned. But more recently, starting in January, the Trump administration's actions have been cutting into an already diminished workforce between the layoffs, the rescinded job offers, the resignations, the retirements. About 13% of Park Service employees have left since January.

And the administration is still trying to push out a whole lot more of them. Staff members who are left behind are facing all kinds of other challenges from the Trump administration. They're being forced to keep everything in the parks open. They're having to cover for their departed co-workers and become jacks of all trades. And what that means is in places like Yosemite and other parks, we have scientists who are now being reassigned to cleaning bathrooms at some times.

So I want to play a cut from Interior Secretary Doug Bergen, who was on Fox News last month saying that these kinds of cuts were really just essentially getting rid of unnecessary roles. Let's hear it.

I mean, what we're doing right now is emptying out the barn and deciding what should go back in. And what should go back in is the stuff that actually serves the American people. And so take national parks for an example. There is so much overhead of people that work for the park system that don't work in a park.

We can actually increase the number of people like this summer. We'll have more people working in Yellowstone than we had in 2020, more people working, but we could end up with fewer people across the whole park system. So, Ashley, is this in line with the overall messaging of the administration around the National Park Service that everything's OK? They're just clearing out the barn. And in fact, people may see at the parks more people.

It would really surprise me if that happens because right now we are seeing that seasonal employees have not been hired the way they were supposed to be at the rate they were supposed to be. People who were supposed to come on in April and May are now looking at June or July. We're moving into the high season when these parks are filling up with visitors. Um,

And you might not notice it when you walk into the park because there's so much scrambling taking place to make sure the visitor experience is still amazing. But under the surface, people are doing two or three jobs right now and hiring is frozen. There are people who...

have never, you know, dealt with payroll that are having to, to handle that part of the national park system. There are people who have two or three leadership jobs at once in different parks. I don't know what their plan is, but they've gotten rid of a lot of people that were really necessary. Neil, what Ashley's saying is reminded me of something you said is that

People will have a facade of a national park experience that these actions by the administration may not be obvious to the park visitor this year.

Yeah, so the Trump administration knows that cutting staff and budgets of our national parks is very unpopular and that we're approaching the busy summer season. So the administration is effectively working in overdrive to mislead the public into thinking things are okay. As Ashley mentioned, there's a secretarial order forcing our national parks to stay open, even though they don't have the staffing or funding and it's playing out

by core park protection functions like protecting wildlife, conducting wildlife research, serving the visitor with educational programs, all being abandoned because the staff don't exist. And these, whatever staff is remaining are being redeployed because the administration wants visitors to think that, hey, if you find a clean bathroom,

Parks are in a good shape, right? And this is almost akin to a situation like a car, right? It's been cleaned and waxed, gives the appearance of upkeep, but then you open up the hood, you look underneath, you see there's no battery, the cords are being cut, the pieces are rusted. And the administration, it seems like they're banking on the public not being smart enough to

And that's a bad bet because Americans love their national parks and they're not happy. And it speaks to their vulnerability, the administration's vulnerability, because they want to keep these places open. They're trying desperately to convey this image of things are OK. But, you know, here in California, let's talk about what we're going to be missing. Right. Like the visitor population.

At Pinnacles National Park, they see the majestic California condor. Russell talked about the extremely cute island fox at Channel Islands Park.

These species did not get brought back from near extinction because scientists were cleaning bathrooms, right? They were brought back because scientists were actually doing their jobs, right, for years and decades. And that's what we're shortchanging the public, not just this generation, but generations to come. I see. So that's one of the things that is really feeling the brunt, things that are not being tended to now that will have repercussions both in the short term, but it sounds like the longer term with regard to...

you know, species protection, trees, plants, water protection as well. Absolutely. It's, it's, it's immediate. Like, um, the impacts that people will see with, um, uh,

overcrowding, trash, litter, but it's a long-term, right? Our national parks are set aside not for today, but for tomorrow. That's a core function of our national parks. It's uniquely American that we all own them. We might not own a house or a car, but every American is an equal owner of our national parks. And that's the type of thing that we take care of, that we set aside. And

When you have these breaks in not funding scientific research, right, a core function, that could have extremely longstanding impacts to the health and wellness of our parks. And so we're very worried about what we're seeing park staff do.

are very worried about what they're seeing um and this ashley and russell mentioned previously you know they have the muzzle they can't say anything right because they're under duress they're being forced to either take early retirement or um under the um pressure of being fired so it's a really tough job right now for our national park service staff and rangers

Well, Ruth writes, we had planned a vacation to visit Zion and Bryce this summer. We had reservations at a resort and were researching flights when I started seeing the long lines at the park entrances and rumors of a shortage of EMTs at the parks on social media. I canceled our plans because of safety concerns. I'm glad we went to Pinnacles before this all happened because they fired all the fish and game people who are keeping the California condors alive. Four years of Trump might be their demise. Another

Another listener on Instagram writes, I've already seen reels of tourists trashing the park. Yosemite in particular gets brutalized by tourists every summer. They walk off the walkways, trample the ecosystems, carve the trees, nick the roots, pester the wildlife. Honestly, they need to make it a permit-only park and only half the current amount of people every day. The Trump regime will kill this park. It's already fragile enough. Let me go to caller Lisa in Half Moon Bay. Hi, Lisa, you're on.

Hi. Thank you for doing this very important program. I have so much to say, but I'll try to stay brief. My daughter is a national park ranger on Alcatraz Island. And she's new there, but she still has a job, thank goodness. And it's her dream job. And she's a cultural and historical resource ranger teaching people about the

history and running bilingual programs as well. So she's reaching a lot of public. What you don't see is she is working two or three jobs. They're understaffed. She's very overwhelmed and she works overtime. And a lot of people are working overtime, which does not save money. But every day she puts on her hat,

be faced because she loves what she does and she's public facing but people just don't understand the impact of all of this and i guess i just want to say to all the listeners please give any money you can to national park foundations or any of these conservancies that are going to be so vital with all of these incredibly short-sighted cuts so thank you for having me on

Lisa, thanks for sharing that. This listener writes, I recently visited the Grand Canyon and Joshua Tree. Neither park had staff collecting fees. While visitor centers at the Grand Canyon were open, no visitor service were available at Joshua Tree. I've heard this too, Ashley, that at some parks, they're unable to collect entrance fees in part because there just aren't the people there. And that in part is cutting into fees.

uh, what resources the parks need to be able to function. Sure. There have been a number of, uh, closures and visitor centers that have, you know, had to reduce their hours trails that have been temporarily closed because there's nobody to issue permits for them or keep visitors safe. Um, and that will continue to happen. It's,

It's almost as if the park service has hypothermia and all of the resources are having to go toward the vital organs. And there are things that are just being left and sacrificed, really. Like in my reporting recently, I...

I found out that the High Sierra camps in Yosemite National Park would not be opening this summer. And, you know, these are historic camps over 100 years old, beloved in Yosemite, but they only serve a few lucky people who win the lottery. And, yeah,

Because they are not serving as many visitors, the Park Service had to make a tough choice and decide, you know, we have to put our resources elsewhere this year. So that feature of Yosemite is not available to people. And I think as the summer goes on, we're going to see more and more of that. Yeah, one of the things that...

You also reported on was the fact that there was some confusion around whether or not there would be a reservation system at Yosemite anymore. Can you talk about the ripple effects that that had? I believe they have now instituted it, but that it was delayed and confusing. Sure. Yeah, there was a lot of chaos around that. Normally,

Yosemite's reservation system would have been announced very early in the year and people could have started making their plans businesses could have started making their plans and understanding you know what their demand was going to be um but it got pushed back and pushed back and uh frankly I was really relieved to see that there was a reservation system at all put into place um

It's the least restrictive reservation system that Yosemite's ever had. So if you are hoping to go to the park, I wouldn't be deterred by it at all. You can drive into the park anytime before 6 a.m. or anytime after 2 p.m. without a reservation, which could cause its own problems. I've heard over Memorial Day weekend on Sunday at 2 p.m. the line for the south entrance was, you know, two and a half to three hours long. Yeah.

which is rough for people who planned on spending a lot of that time in the park and then they don't get in until, you know, five, six o'clock. But really, this is just kind of a flying by the seat of its pants operation. And everybody had to scramble to figure out how to make it work. Yeah. What effect did the reservation provision have on local communities in and around Yosemite? Oh, my goodness. I've heard so many people talk about how this has damaged their businesses and

It's created tension between them and their customers. You know, one hotel owner showed me his schedule for people coming in for the summer, and he had almost no bookings for June and July in Groveland. He had never seen anything like it. People were waiting for...

to find out if there was a reservation system before they made their plans. And they were also very nervous that, you know, when they, if they were to visit a park, what they find there would not be what they were looking for, that it would be too crowded and trash everywhere, or the staff would be really stressed out. They didn't want to contribute to, you know, people who are already struggling.

And when you say fly by the seat of your pants, it does remind me also of the confusion around seasonal workers. It sounded like there was uncertainty around whether or not there would be large scale hiring of seasonal workers. And now suddenly they are saying you can, but people are worried because they're so far behind on that process. Yeah. So that I kind of want to go over fully. Yeah.

Basically, the seasonal job offers were rescinded in error. That was not supposed to happen. Even Elon Musk told the Associated Press that that was a mistake. And basically what it meant is that thousands of people who had been in the system and in the process of getting jobs for months were tossed out and fired.

had to reapply for their jobs a month later. And the process is long to get hired for a federal job. It takes about two months. And so we're now seeing a delay in all of those people coming on and

Some of them have, and when they arrive, they might not even have a manager because of how many people have been laid off or fired or taken a buyout or retired. So it's a really chaotic time and morale is really low and people are just doing everything they can to kind of stick together and show the visitors a good time.

Let me go to caller Rich in Napa. Hi, Rich. You're on. Hi. Thanks for taking my call. I just had a quick question, and I'll take the answer off the air. It occurs to me that this administration, I understand, has tended to want to privatize many services or things that our government has provided. And I mean, it just occurs to me that

Maybe this is an attempt to have the park service fail to provide services so contracts can be issued to large companies like they do in Yosemite for services just to expand that to include ranger services. So that's my question.

Yeah. Neil, there's been a lot of speculation about what's motivating the Trump administration to be so hard on the parks from privatizing, from wanting to access natural resources, from having an anti-climate change agenda, for example. What do you think is going on here? Yeah, I mean, the administration has signaled this exact thing by putting in their budget proposal an effort to move national parks

out of the system and into- local governments or even private hands- so there they've they've been fairly transparent. With that- and it's- it's out that's a very very troubling-

context of you know business experience right government efficiency by these executives in the trump administration and. You know you would never run a business like this are just bringing us back to what. Was just being discussed. You're not bringing return on investment by not collecting fees. Or cutting a budget for an agency that returns fifteen dollars for every one dollar you invest. You know it's like cutting staff but not even knowing what they do or like actually was saying. Cutting staff

cutting the seasonal staffing, you know, you would be fired from a boardroom if this were a business, right? And so it's, the administration, we don't think has an idea of what the parks do, how they work.

And at the same time, it is because of what the administration has put in their proposal for their budgets for this upcoming year. They do intend to move parks out of the national park system.

We're talking about the turmoil inside the National Park Service with Neil Desai, Pacific Region Director at the National Parks Conservation Association, and Ashley Harrell, National Parks Bureau Chief for SFGATE. We're talking about the impact of the Trump administration's budget and staffing cuts and what Californians can expect at its national parks this summer, and why, despite all the issues, a lot of former and current parks employees are encouraging people to go.

We'll have more after the break. Stay with us. You're listening to Forum. I'm Mina Kim. Support for Forum comes from San Francisco Opera. Amidst a terrible storm, Ida Mineo promises the god Neptune that he will sacrifice the first person he sees if he and his crew survive the tempestuous waters. But as he arrives safely to shore, his relief transforms into horror when the first person he lays eyes upon is his own son.

This summer, venture into the storm with Mozart's sublime opera, Idomeneo. June 14-25. Learn more at sfopera.com. Support for Forum comes from Broadway SF, presenting Parade, the musical revival based on a true story. From three-time Tony-winning composer Jason Robert Brown comes the story of Leo and Lucille Frank, a newlywed Jewish couple struggling to make a life in Georgia.

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You're listening to Forum. I'm Mina Kim. Here's Don Neubacher, former superintendent of Yosemite National Park, in a recent interview with KQED reporter Riley Cook on the impact of the funding and staffing cuts on the National Park Service by the Trump administration. You just can't have more visitors, less staff, less money, and do an adequate job. It's just not possible. So I think you're going to find long lines, less

law enforcement presence, less search and rescue capability, less visitor centers.

Listeners, are you planning a visit to a national park this summer? What are your questions? Have you noticed recent changes at your favorite national park? What do the national parks mean to you? You can tell us by calling 866-733-6786, by emailing forum at kqed.org, and by finding us on our social channels, Blue Sky Facebook threads at KQED Forum. We're talking with Ashley Harrell, National Parks Bureau Chief at SFGate, and Neil Desai, Pacific Region Director for the National Parks Conservation Association.

So, Neil, I understand that the National Park Service is slated for even more cuts in this Trump budget bill. Can you describe those cuts? What's being considered?

Right. So there's several things going on right now. There's the congressional reconciliation bill that the House just passed and it's over at the Senate. And one of the things in there is a cut of $267 million for the National Park Service, mainly for park staffing. And then the Trump administration for their upcoming budget is also proposing significant

Cuts that we estimate would lead to the closure of, you know, 75 percent of parks if these implemented. Now, ultimately, when it comes to these types of funding decisions, Congress has a role.

And we have yet to see Congress as a whole act on certain types of funding or budget bills. And so that's going to be the real test of will these parks survive? The administration right now is going through their efforts to do a reduction in force, significantly cutting the staffing that's held up in the courts, thankfully at this moment.

And so there's litigation going on right now to protect and restore Park Service rangers and staff and their efforts in Congress to cut the...

park service budget and efforts by the administration to propose that as well. Yes. So there was that 1,000 or so reduction at the beginning. And then this was layoffs and I guess also people taking buyouts, as Ashley was saying, and another 1,500 that are slated for the National Park Service by the U.S. Interior Department. The other thing that I was shocked by was that the Trump administration's budget proposal

Called for more than a billion dollars of National Park Service funding to go away, which was 40% of the agency's budget. But lastly, one of the other things that was written in the proposal has been contemplating shifting the management of less popular parks to the states. Can you explain that? And how realistic is that, Neal?

Yeah, so this, it seems completely misguided, right? You know, these national parks, we've talked about some of them before, right?

They might be less visited, obviously, but incredibly important, right? Like Port Chicago National Memorial in the East Bay in Concord tells the story of the desegregation of the armed services or Manzanar National Historical Site in the Eastern Sierra, right? Tells the story of the Japanese internment. This...

These are significant stories. They're American stories. Our parks were set aside to tell these stories in places. And the administration has been even increasingly more transparent in their disdain for places like this and lack of appreciation for places like this.

And and so their attempt to divest ultimately has to go through Congress. And that's where Congress historically has said we're not doing this. And so there is there is hope that wisdom will prevail, that long term thinking will prevail, that the wellness of our country and our national parks will prevail.

So Interior Secretary Doug Burgum, who of course we heard earlier saying that they were just clearing the barn, issued an order this month that invites park visitors to report sites at parks that they believe don't accurately reflect American history or that reflect what they believe to be a partisan ideology. What do you make of that, Neil? Yeah.

Yeah, I mean, this seems to be an effort to rewrite history by telling and directing Park Service Rangers that, hey, if you're a ranger at Harriet Tubman Underground National Monument,

Maybe don't talk about slavery and don't talk about it in the negative way, right? And so it's to, it sends a message to our park service employees to not tell the full story, to not tell a truthful story to the visitors. Park visitors come to these places to learn, right? And

It helps us understand where we were, learn from things that we did well, from mistakes of the past to become a better country, right, to have a better future. Like that's part of the Park Service's goal and mission.

So Susan writes,

Roger writes, I love the national parks and hate to see them cut back, but this country can't continue to get deeper and deeper into debt. Vivian on Discord writes, are state parks mostly insulated from the effects? So Ashley, are state parks mostly insulated from the effects? Do you know? No, state, oh, sorry, state parks, at least in California, where I have covered state parks somewhat for the last four years, I would say that

there's a struggle there too. Um, in some cases, state parks are getting federal funding. Um, and that's no longer, uh, something they can count on. And, you know, they've got plenty of deferred maintenance of their own. Um, they have trouble recruiting people as well. And the, the state parks, because they're already struggling, I think it's, um,

Not realistic to think that they could suddenly somehow take over national parks as well. I don't see the logic there. And Neil, to Roger's point about the country not going deeper and deeper to debt, what proportion of the budget tends to be the National Park Service?

Yeah, the park service is less than one-fifteenth of one percent of our federal budget, right? So when we think about places to cut, surely it's a valid point, right? We want to make sure that we reduce our debt overall in the country, but that doesn't—the parks—

probably the last place you want to look at, right? It's one of the most efficient government agencies. Previous callers talked about rangers wearing multiple hats, doing multiple jobs. So for the very small percentage that the parks service makes up for the budget, plus the fact that they've returned $15 for every $1 we invest, it seems like a smart investment. Let me go to Peter in Tampa. Hi, Peter, you're on.

Hi. A memory that comes to me is when I was growing up, my family, we did a summer vacation in California, summer of 77. And we were

We went to Lake Tahoe, but most importantly, we did go to Yosemite. And it was an awesome thing to wake up in the morning and look and say, because we saw something at dusk, and we didn't know what it was. We say, it looks like a skyscraper, but it can't be. El Capitan. In other words, I mean, have you seen El Capitan? I mean, because if you haven't, it's like you have to do it as a human being. And the redwood trees...

It puts human beings in their place. These things have been around thousands of years. It just puts us in our place in this era. We need humility, and the forest will make us humble. Oh, Peter, thanks. Let me go to Fedros next in Los Gatos. Hi, Fedros. You're on.

I'm just wondering if Donald Trump and Elon Musk have ever been to a park. They behave like they have never been part of a nature. Hard walls and skyscrapers and money, greed and all that.

And as a father, I know that with my kids, I insist on regularly taking them to, we live in California, so to Yosemite, to Tahoe, to Pinecrest. And that rough camping experience. Yeah, Fedros, it sounds like your comment is very connected to what Peter was just saying. Let me go next to caller Jim in Shasta. Hi, Jim. Thanks for waiting. Go ahead.

Oh, yes. Thank you for taking my call. No, I'm getting back to the budget. How much of the budget is actually...

fees and how much is taxpayer allocations and and how much is being cut are they actually trying to cut budget that's actually fees that are paid oh jim i don't understand how it works good question thanks neil do you can you just share some insight on that just in terms of how much parks rely on visitor fees it versus just you know the overall taxpayer funding and so on

Yeah, every park is different. Some parks have fees, some parks don't. Parks that collect fees keep some at their actual park and others are distributed for the benefit of all these parks around the country. They make up a small percentage of the overall budget. A high majority comes from Congress.

Let me remind listeners, we're talking about the turmoil in the National Park Service and the impact of the Trump administration's budget and staffing cuts. And you're listening to Forum. I'm Mina Kim.

Carol writes, I just had the privilege and pleasure of visiting the Channel Islands National Park for several days. What a pleasure to see the flora and fauna of the California of yesteryear. Yes, we saw the island fox. We thank the park rangers profusely. But oh, how their shoulders were slumped. Let me go to Jonathan in Marin. Hi, Jonathan, you're on.

Hi, thank you so much for taking the call. My question is about the "after" part of this four-year debacle that we're in right now. There's always an after. I know that certain members of Congress are talking about, once this mess is over, to codify certain things and hopefully seek justice. My question is for the national parks. What's the

after plan in terms of, you know, once he's gone, hopefully in jail, and what's going to happen in terms of making sure that not only are defenses sort of shored up and staffing is restored and so on and so forth, but is there a plan to put bills forth in Congress to make sure that the national parks will be sort of secure and

And taking care of in perpetuity beyond this. Thanks, Jonathan. Neil, you want to take that first? Do you have any insights into a possible after plan?

Well, you know, our national parks have been around since 1916. OK, so these these places are in the forever business. The work that we do at the National Parks Conservation Association to advocate for these places are in the forever business. I think the callers and people who are coming in to hear this show.

and care about our parks are in the forever business, right? Because they're a creature of politics, right? Our parks are a creature of politics. People and legislators can establish them. They can protect them. They can take actions that are against them. So even when we're past current threats, whether they're a weak government,

a month, a year, four years from now, we have to be vigilant, right? And so focus, right? I mean, four years from now is almost like an eternity. But there's so much that needs to be done right now because as I think prior caller mentioned, some of these places,

species, things have been around for hundreds or thousands of years, millions of years if we're talking about geological structures, right? And it could only take months or a year of action to harm them. So the threats are urgent, right? The need to be involved is urgent. And four years from now is kind of like an eternity away.

Ashley, how are you planning out your Bureau's coverage of national parks, given all of this? Yeah, I would say we're taking it one day at a time. I think it's important to look ahead and think about, you know, what happens when this is all over. But right now, there's so much that the parks stand to lose. And we're kind of hyper-focused on what's going on on the ground, where the conflicts are, what...

Species may end up not being monitored that we could lose potentially. What these deep cuts to the staff actually mean on the ground. We're trying to be less focused on what could happen later and more in the moment. What is happening right now and just get information to people because I think

This administration has made it really difficult to fully know what's going on. We aren't hearing a lot from the public information offices at these national parks. So it's requiring a lot of digging and building sources and

A lot of documents are coming our way that normally wouldn't because there are so many people who work for these parks who care deeply about these places. And we're just trying to do the best job we can figuring out what's going on and telling people about it.

Denise writes, we should protect what we love. Visitors can and should volunteer to support the parks. When I visited Yosemite years ago, I volunteered with rangers to pull weeds. Neil, what can the public who cares about these parks do?

Well, you know, building off of what I was saying before, you know, these parks and the park service and government agencies right there are ultimately a creation of politics, right? And politics are people. And so be involved, be active in the way that you can if it's volunteering, right?

Great. If it's speaking up and being involved in urging your member of Congress to be involved to help make this a priority, even if they support parks to speak out on it, that's all really important right now because a lot of information just isn't being disclosed as Ashley was mentioning. So that's going to be incredibly important. And if you happen to visit a park,

Thank the Rangers. You know, these people are out there under unprecedented duress. They signed up for this as public service to help people create these lifetime memories. And so give them a little encouragement because there's an effort in the administration right now to wear these folks down. Right. So that they leave. They quit. So please help them out.

A recent Pew survey found that nearly 80% approved of the National Park Service, like the most popular federal agency. Sounds like it would require a very public outcry. And I appreciate what you were saying earlier about it might be hard to notice how things are because of the window dressing or the facade that's happening right now. But this administration does seem to respond to public opinion. Neil Desai of the Pacific Region News.

National Parks Conservation Association, really appreciate you being on. Ashley Harrell, National Parks Bureau Chief of SFGate, and Russell Gallopo, who ran Channel Islands National Park. Thank you, Caroline Smith. Thank you, listeners. This is Forum. I'm Mina Kim. Funds for the production of Forum are provided by the John S. and James L. Knight Foundation, the Generosity Foundation, and the Corporation for Public Broadcasting.

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