Hermes Historia: Giorgos the Oikist, Colonization in Greek Antiquity
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I guess I introduce it. Hello, this is Let's Talk About Miss Baby. And I am your host, Liv. And this is weird because Mikayla's here and normally I sing alone. Hi, Mikayla. Hi. Hi.

Once again, we are getting used to this whole Hermes Historia thing. But officially, I think as of this one, it's no longer free. So if you are listening to Hermes Historia now, thank you so much for giving us a little bit of your money. It helps this show keep going because, yes, spoilers, there's lots of changes coming. Money is really uncertain. So thank you.

And here we are to give you some fun historical content. And by we, I mean, Michaela has done all of the work. Take it away, Michaela. Hi. So today feels, this topic was supposed to be for, I think, November, but it's coming now. So it feels even more just constantly. Do you think there was something that was going on in November that is now relevant again and worse in January?

yay shoot me uh so this one is uh i'm gonna tell the listeners just right now just for a real quick reference of just when we're recording this so i just need you all to know that we're recording this on thursday july 23rd and we had to begin our conversation january july january 23rd and we had to begin our conversation by saying to each other like so you you saw what he did

Yeah, yes. I saw what he did. Uh-huh. Uh-huh. And my heart hurts. Oh, God. Okay. Yeah, so anyway, we're feeling great. And we're going to try to laugh through some of it. And...

Talk about not at all relevant historical moments. Right? Yeah. It's going to be something like that. For example, today we're going to talk about colonization. Oh! And the way the Greeks did it in the 7th century. Because it's a little different. Yeah. But still very...

Prussian. Bad. I believe. Yeah. Well, yeah. It's complicated, isn't it? Colonization is bad. Right? You know, in modernity, it's a very heavy word and we have a lot of associations with colonization, what it looks like and what it is. And when we think of it, we often think of, you know, Britain, generally Western Europe, Japanese colonization.

Others. I will not. You know, there's some. The term settler colonial has been in the news. Okay. Why did I choose to do this? It's fine. It's fine. Oh, I'm sorry you're experiencing so much of what I still am not used to about. Yeah. You have to talk about it because it's relevant in your history brain. It's like, you have to know this. Oh, yeah. But also...

Yeah. Yeah. It takes, it hurts. And, and the thing with the ancient med, which, um, you know, I'm, I'm obsessed with and talk about a lot is that it's always been extremely connected and people always have been moving around. So, um,

colonization is not necessarily in the ancient context about empire building. It does become that. Hello, fifth century Athens. That is exactly what is happening there. But is it fair to say that that is the same thing that is happening in seventh century Greece, where the idea is about power building for certain states and

Is it more that we could think of colonization as just merely people moving? Colonization in the 7th century was more about... Yeah, yeah. More about growing power rather than empire building, but also that sounds like the same thing to me, so I want to know more. Yeah, well, no, not quite growing power. I think the thing is you have to be aware of the geography of Greece, which is... Greece is a very...

like still is and was in antiquity a very resource poor land so as populations grow you need ways to support the population and when your land is not up to the task the easiest thing is to kick population out which is what we will see so

A lot of the times when in the 7th century the Greeks were moving, it wasn't necessarily let's get more power. I mean, like, yes and no. There's a lot of different ways to look at it. But it was also we have more people than we can support. So we're just going to kick those people out. Right. And they can go off and...

find ways to support themselves. Oh, so that you, so you're saying the colonization was more about like the people who were kicked out because of the space then just went on to find their own space basically. And so there's still obviously going to be violence attached, but, but,

But it's, yeah, yeah. Less, less, that makes sense. So it's less about like, because when it came to later in Athens. Yes. That was about growing Athenian powers. Yeah, exactly. And like hegemony and like, just like, are we the biggest and most powerful? Can we crush all of our enemies? So very empire building versus we can't support these people. So just kick them out. Yeah. And then those people end up going on to create a colony. Yeah. And like Greek colonies, um,

And compared to like Roman colonies, in my mind, this is how I see it at least, Roman colonies were about gaining land and gaining power for Rome. It was still very connected. And Greek colonies were in a way still connected to their mother city, but they often were like, we're going to go and make a little city and this is going to be our city and leave us alone. Yeah. Yeah.

Things still happened. Absolutely. It's colonization. They are moving native populations out of the land so they can have the land. But it's not quite so let's make more power for Athens specifically. Yeah. Or Sparta specifically. And they were building their own like, and maybe you'll get into this, but I think of Sicily as sort of the big like Magna Graeca, the big kind of Greek colony that

It kind of became its entire own thing. And so they end up getting their own... It's not... Yeah, like you're saying, it's not about growing necessarily the power of the mother city. There's still all of the violence involved with the actual act of colonization, but very different than the intention being to like...

Killer, enslave everyone and just grow that overarching like imperial boot. Exactly. Exactly. So that's how like the original Greek colonization kind of started. Yeah.

you know, it's not until fifth century that Athens is trying to reach for power and they do horrible things like massacre entire populations. So originally this is recorded after I just on Monday decided that was the only thing I could talk about. Yeah. So that worked out very well. So the referring to the million. Yeah. The mylesian revolt. Yeah. The siege of Mylos. Yeah. Um,

And then there was the Melian one, which was where they did it. They almost did. And then they said shit. No, you mean Middleaney. Middleaney? Yeah. Melian is Milos just in a different form. Yes. You're just mixing them up because they're both M's and they're both atrocities. Yeah. You can say it again if you want. The Middleanian debate. Middleaney. Nah, it's fine. I am a fallible human being. I make mistakes.

So a lot of colonization has to do with the emergence of the polis, which is the city-states in Greece. All across Greece, independent cities with their own religious practices, constitutions, forms of governments, governance were popping up. Because the thing to remember about Greece is that in antiquity, it was never unified.

So it is looking at little city states that control sort of their own little land around them. They're not, they're not answering to a bigger empire. They're just like forming their own forms of governance for that one specific region. Yeah. So that's why we, that's the thing that can be kind of, I think hard to understand and grasp is comparing, um,

The way to compare it is, like, you know, with Rome, it was all answering to Rome. In Greece... All roads lead to Rome. Yeah. In Greece, it was Attica answered to Athens, the Peloponnese answered to Sparta, the, you know... Yeah, regional powers. Regional powers. But still quite separate. Yeah. Especially when you take into account the islands. Like, we're talking about Melios. Yes. The Melian siege. Like...

We're talking about islands that are very far off from the mainland. Yeah. Yeah. Like they're very, you know, isolated in their own way. So it's not even a practical thing where they would have like a more concentrated power structure. Exactly. And then each little state kind of had their own forms of government and governance and how whatever works best for them, as well as they've had their own like religious practices. Like they kind of have a shared religious belief that,

But they all went about it in their own little ways. And different languages and dialects and stuff too. I think just to really hammer home like just how independent and separate they often were. Yeah. Yeah. And that's why like me with my Greek learning, it's a very – I mean, I think I'm better at Greek than Latin. But –

The one thing I always complain about, I'm like, why is this different in this? And one of my professors, I remember her being like, well, Latin is the way it is because of the foam of it all. It was one unified language. Exactly. While Greece didn't have that because there was no center. Yeah.

So this really affects the way colonization works because it is not a unified group of people expanding their networks. Each polis was setting out settlements of their own and for their own purposes. And the relationship between the mother city and the colony were...

generally that was what the important tie was but usually it wasn't in the sense that the mother city ran the the colony right there's a like it's like a familial relation in a way it's like we came from here like it's that notion of expats versus immigrant which exactly sorry guys white people they're all immigrants you can't just call them expats and suggest they're not immigrants they're still an immigrant

There are some instances, though, where the colony wasn't too connected with its starting city, which is interesting. So, yeah, I don't even know many of the like mother cities to these colonies because I feel like I've often learned them as like separate polis. Yeah, because they generally were like that. That's kind of how it was. So I want to go over quickly the language used for colonies because I like language.

I don't care for it. I mean, it's caused problems all by itself. But it also helps us to understand the purpose for the colonies and why they were sent out in the first place. So the general word for colonies in Greeks was apoia. It's a very general term.

It doesn't really clarify anything about the purpose of the colony. It's simply a statement of facts. You know, there's a report here. And then there's the corresponding polis that goes along with it. Another word for a colony was an emporion. And in this case, it is more of a trade and commercialization. Like an emporium? Like the same words? Okay, great. Love it. Love me some etymology. Yeah. So you could send out...

an emporion and that is where you would conduct economic activities it would help to benefit the mother city more because she is getting economic power from it um a city could have its own emporion that was attached to it or it could have an emporion close by that would be under its umbrella so for example a polis could set up an apurkia somewhere and nearby the settlement they could make another city that was an emporion that would serve as the trading post for that settlement

How, sorry, how much evidence do we have for the violence that would go along with the colonization? Like, do we have much of them recording like we had to do this damage to the Native people at all? Or would they tend to ignore that in whatever survives? Yeah.

I'm trying to wake up my brain from my research I did two or three months ago. I would expect there to be some. Me too. Just knowing how ancient Greeks talked about people who were non-Greeks, I would absolutely expect there to be some. So true. They're not just letting the barbarians chill. Exactly. But off the top of my head, I can't think of anything. Yeah, fair. It's also like we don't have the same type of...

history from that time period as we do from later so yeah so an aporian could also exist on its own by itself on the land um and did not need a nearby city to government so it is did people live there or was it like okay so it's kind of like a town itself yeah but it's just main purpose was commercial versus an aporia's purpose was people to go live

It sounds like that's just like most of North American modern colonization. Yeah, exactly. But an Emporion also emphasizes that there is a relationship with the founding city too. And the last type of colony I want to bring up is more obvious to 5th century Athens, and that's a cleric. So this is more like modern colonization. So these are clearly...

people who, clerics, when they were set up, if you lived there, born in there, whatever, the people who were sent there, they still had Athenian citizenship.

So there is a dividing thing, you know, with a Porcia set up, they might not necessarily have like even citizenship. They would have citizenship to that place. That's so Rome for Athens to be like, like, it's just Athenian citizenship. Yep. Yep. So it is very clearly Athenian city, Athenian citizens living abroad, making their own cities on other soil and governing themselves clearly as if they were still in Athens. Right.

So they would identify themselves. They identified themselves as Athenians living in X place and can be viewed as an extension of Athenian power. So they're very different from Apurkia and Apurions as they're not merely colonies, but they are a thought out and direct action in order to extend Athenian power. Yeah. This is where that difference comes in. And it's a big one. It is a huge thing. Yeah. Yeah.

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Emporion. Is that coming? Like, is Empire coming from that or is it totally unrelated and sounds really similar? Do you know? And we can Google. My favorite website for everyone out there, etymonline.com.

It's how you can get lovely little... I fucking love etymology. Yep, etymology things. So let's see. Empire. Territory subject to an emperor's rule. In general, realm dominion.

But then where is empire coming from? From old French empire. From Latin imperium, which is rule or command, authority, control, power, supreme power. But it's gotta be coming from Greek. Soul dominion, military authority, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. From imperare, meaning to command. From in and parare, which is parare is to prepare, to order. So it sounds like it's maybe not at all connected and just hella Latin. I feel like...

Sometimes there are just like coincidental things like that. Oh, well, yeah, because it's all Indo-European roots. And like Greek and Latin are both Indo-European and Latin borrows a lot from Greece. Well, exactly. But then some, yeah, no, that's the thing. I'm always interested in where Latin takes from Greek. Yeah, I'd look it up on the Oxford website.

dictionary because they have really good etymology as well but I don't want to do that right now valid we don't we shouldn't it's a very it's a very Latin word I will say that Latin in concept because I think as much as Greece really tried to

of Greece as much as Athens really tried to empire it was it was more of a really cute adorable little attempt compared to Rome and even Big Al oh god Alex the okay we love him did his best okay

What can you do? Honestly, that's so fair. Did you ever? Okay. Three club. My ex said this to me one time and it stuck with me, but it took the Beatles half the amount of time it took Alex the okay to take on the world. Yeah. That's kind of impressive.

Because, you know, they weren't doing it with the same violence. And I think that made it a little faster. All you need is love, man. That's what they wanted. Okay, so we still see in any colony, there is still a sense of a connection with the mother city. Not necessarily in the direct way that it is in Cleric Keyes.

or in the commercial way as it is with Emporions. But one of the ways we see this connection is there was a practice of bringing fire from the main hearth of the Mother City

to start the new colonies hearth so you know that's beautiful yeah so she's there yeah yeah um they would likely follow the same religious calendar and we can find similarities between mother cities and colonies in their festivals they will also there was also an expectation that whatever conflicts or wars wars the colony got into the mother city would come to their aid um

Oh, okay. So does it go both ways, though? Yeah, let's be honest. Yeah. But I think it's not as stringent as it was with the clerics, where I like hypothetically, a colony could be like, no, right. It might not go well for them. But yeah, there is a level of removal in these colonies. Yeah.

Okay, so if we are, what is the purposes of these colonies then? So why would a polis want to send out a colony in the first place? And this is why the different types are important. So if we understand colonies to all be connected to their mother city in some sense, then we know that there must be some sort of benefit for the mother city to partake in this practice in the first place.

So an Emporion's function is pretty self-explanatory. It allows the extension of trade and commercial business. But then is it fair to say that the purpose of a colony was always for some sort of financial gain? As it turns out, no. And this is really what I find really interesting about this type of colonization because it is

Very different and weird. And it's almost like there's a part of me that doesn't feel comfortable using the word colonization because I think colonization has implications along with it that I don't know if it's quite the same. Yeah, no, I agree. Well, also it's at this time when like, I mean, it's such a population is booming. And it's the Mediterranean where things are so interconnected already. And given there isn't this like,

violent grasp for yeah power at any cost like it does feel so different but yeah it's like it's hard because it's like that's because of what we are looking at now yeah and it's a nuanced conversation you know like it's a little bit harder to talk about this type of colonization and specifically the aporkias than it is to look at more modern colonization because it has two different purposes um

And does it still have negative effects? Of course. It's just that comes along with the territory. But is it as insidious or as words escape? I mean, insidious is so right, though. Insidious is so right because like the thing about the type of colonization that we're faced with now and that we're faced with over the last few centuries, like it is...

It is. No, you know, it reminds me of, well, maybe that's not right, but it came. I'm saying this so poorly, but it is just like the, what we've had over the last few centuries is so based in like, to me, it's like they, they had knowledge of what they were doing and that's what feels so different. Like they knew that they were going to go and, and,

kill people that they didn't see as people and dehumanize these people purely for their own gain and profit in a way where the Athenians, like not the Athenians, but the Greeks in this time period sound like it's more about like the more human needs of growth and movement and change versus this, like we are going to go and stamp you out because you pose a threat or all of these, or you just, we just like want this power, whatever. Because then,

If we think of colonization or this kind of activity as a negative thing, well, then how do we explain things like the Neolithic movement of people? The reason Greece started having this agricultural revolution is because people from the Near East were moving into Greece. Well, do we call that colonization? Or is that just...

People naturally migration. Exactly. And that's kind of how I feel like it's, I, it's complicated. Well, and that's why I asked about the violence. Like what, what record we have of like, you know, whether they were going and committing genocide. Cause that's so different than if they were going and they were like,

just like kind of building a city where somebody else had already had one, but like incorporating them, like it's still bad, but it's not genocide, you know? Exactly. It wasn't for the purpose of, um, stamping other people down as much as expansion because they can't take care of their people. Yeah. Like there, there is a, there is a removal still not good, but yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So an easier to stomach. Yes. Easier to stomach. Definitely. Uh,

And so, like I was mentioning earlier, the Greek mainland is not agriculturally rich. It is...

It's not of the best quality to support growing populations. They can grow olives pretty great. You can't survive off of just olives. I mean, I don't know. I could try. And this is what screwed Athens, right? Because Athens went at the end of the Peloponnesian War when they were basically being besieged by Sparta and they were all stuck inside their city, but they still had the port because of the long walls to the Piraeus. They were still able to get...

because they got all the food from the Black Sea region and it was sailed in. And then Sparta went and they cut off that trade route. And now they're just starving the city out. That's just kind of, it's very just of the land. It's just not agriculturally rich. It's unfortunate. Places are like that.

So like at some point, like I was saying, the amount of people that the land could support is surpassed by the amount of people that are living on the land. And so what are they going to do? If they can't easily get enough imports in order to provide for this growing population, then they're left in a tricky place. People aren't fed. People aren't dying. There could be civil unrest. So what they do then is they need to lower the amount of people that they are supporting on that land or get more land.

And this is the main purpose of a puikas. It just essentially is send people out of the city. It's lowering the population of the mother city. And so that's lowering the obligation of the mother city to take care of an amount of people. And this is, I find this so interesting. There is an aspect of gaining more land. Yes, you're gaining more land, but the tie between colonies and mother city is not so...

Like, they're sending people out and they're like, okay, you go handle it now. You go figure it out. You make your city. You support yourselves. So there isn't, the obligation isn't there. It's like they raised their babies and they've kicked them out of the nest. Go make your own nest. Go make your own place. Yeah. It has that vibe to it. It helps to explain, though, the connection between the mother city and the colony. The colony views the mother city as their place of origin. Yeah.

But there is still a distinction between the two. They come from this area, but they are not of this area anymore. So there is that distinction between clerics and Apoikas. A cleric is still an extension of Athenian power. While an Apoika is, no, that's where we're from. This is where we are now. It's an expat. Yeah, exactly. So how do these colonies start? It all starts with the decision.

We need to get some people the fuck out of here. There's too much. We need a break. However, we do need someone who can lead this new group of people. And that's where we get a person who is called an orcist. The orcist was an individual who would essentially be in charge of deciding where they would settle and then organize the whole affair.

That sucks. That's like... It's a rough job, man. I don't want that. No, that's too much responsibility. Then do they become like the ruler after her?

But it also depends what kind of governance you're setting up. Right. You know, if you're doing a democracy, no, they don't become the ruler. Yeah. But in other ways, yes. This person would be someone of importance from the mother city. It is still going to be an upper class individual, right? A member of one of the leading families. In the case of cities that were run by rulers or tyrants, this could be one of their sons. Right.

And in this case, the colony would be an extension of the city's power in some sense, or at least the relationship between the colony and the mother city would be much stronger because of the originator, the founder's familial relationship. The orcist would be expected to first make a visit to the sanctuary at Delphi in order to ask the Pythia where the hell they should go. And also if it's a good idea. Yeah.

I love this. I know. They would then be in charge of making decisions around setting up the new colony, what sort of government they would run. And there was a sense of power with these men because, of course, they were men. As men. Yeah, of course. And often, this is, I find this interesting, after they died, they would be inducted into a hero cult for that city. And they would be viewed as the heroic predecessor to the founded city.

So. Okay, examples. Oh my God, I can't think of any. Oh no, I did this research months ago. Turn a man into Heracles for me. Oh, let's just call him Sam. I just think he could have thought of a slightly Greek-er name, but who am I? Philopopolis! I mean, that's.

Again, that's a pretty Macedonian name. You gotta watch what you say around certain... 18 Philips, at least. Of Vistagores? Is that what? There are so many Philips. One Philip? Even the Philip you're talking about was Philip II, Michaela. One Philip. But it's such a Greek name, too. Oh, how about Yorgos? Okay, it's Yorgos. Great.

So sometimes if the colony... His dad was Philip II. I'm not getting over this. Oh, what happened to the first Phil? Who knows? Sometimes if a colony was founded before an orcist was chosen, which I think must have been so fun, they would then summon one from the mother city. They'd be like, we found a good place for a land. You, guy over there, come here. Come here.

Leave everything you know and found this city. You got work to do here. So...

The role of an orcist appears to simply be more concretely connected the colony with its mother city. I don't know if that made sense. Just connected to. Yeah, yeah. How are you spelling orcist? Orcist? Orcist? Yeah. Orcist. I'm sorry. It's my speech impairment coming up. It's fine. Orcist. O-I-K-I-S-T. Yeah. Okay. I think I'm sick. Okay. Orcist. Like the orcos.

The guy of the orc host. Yeah. This is fun too. There was even... Oh, sorry. My cat's being fed. He was there. He was ready. There were even some cases of colonies claiming Apollo as their orcist, which would then give them divine legitimacy that a human man simply could not. Nerds. Nerds.

Get a grip. Isn't that fun? So, yeah. Apollo would be the worst ruler. Are you kidding? But Apollo is always the one because Apollo was such an important god. Well, especially if they're like... Yeah, and they're going to Delphi for all of that. Like, they're going to do Apollo. Yeah. Yeah. And Apollo just becomes... He's like the garbage god where just, you know...

it's true it's like this thing no no it's 100 true who will be the god of it oh apollo like it's just kind of there the garbage god we love him for it question i don't need to love apollo i want to bully him he seems like he'd be fun to bully he's the one god that i would die if i had to deal with a god he's the one god that i have had teenage oh yeah poly like hellenist

modern Hellenists like tell me I'm gonna be in big trouble because I've insulted Apollo and I just it makes me want to hate him more Apollo can come for me I will trip him like I don't care I will the best thing is

They've complained to me. They've been like, basically, like, they won't actually deny any of the stuff I've said because I speak about the ancient sources that include Apollo. Like, I'm not pulling it out of nowhere. But then they're like so mad at me. And I'm like, well, he shouldn't have been a problem if he wants to go ahead and like exercise that control. I think that's such like a modern response to religion. No, exactly. That is so rooted in the Abrahamic religions. Yeah, because I think very well.

The Greeks thought the gods were shitty. They're a problem. We need to be concerned about them. Like, it was about... Yeah, but then, like... Yeah, you're not supposed to love them for everything. You're not. That's why they're so garbage in the stories. Yeah. They're scary guys versus, like...

you know now there's that idea of gods are such loving beautiful things like god bless the souls of the tiny little teenage hellenists i love them let them believe what they want but then when they're doing things it's just i want them to be less about it to me i want them to do what they want and then not tell me that apollo is gonna be mad at me or at least go live their best life but i love to death when they say such things and i'm sitting here and i'm like

all right i like you i are you no i respect the concept but i also need them to recognize that i am just talking about an ancient sources yeah and that modern hellenism is yeah it's not you but like that doesn't change antiquity yeah okay so greeks settled all around the aegean surprise

From the cities all up and down the Ionian coast. They continuously had troubles with the Achaemenid Empire. They also settled down into Egypt, where we have one of the greatest Emporions, now Kratis.

And of course, yeah, it was originally a Greek colony. That makes sense. Because the name sounds very Greek. A lot of the stuff we use today are Greek names for other places. Egypt, surprise, it's a Greek word. And then also, like you mentioned, we have Magna Graecia, which is not just Sicily, it's also Southern Italy. Yes, apologies. I knew that as I said it. They made Apulian art, guys. Google that. Apulian pottery. Apulian pottery.

And what I find so fun is that one of those original Greek colonies in, well, okay. It was, okay. You know what? You wanted an example of a city being the city. I have one because we still have this city to this day. And that is Naples. Naples was originally a native Italic settlement. The Greeks came, kicked them the fuck out.

Now they are in there and they name it Neapolis. Oh, of course. I knew that it was called. Yeah. New City. Yeah. And then eventually they get kicked out by I think it was actually some other native Italians. And then Roman came and took it over. I could be wrong about that, though. But yeah. So that is one instance where Greece took someone's city. But we still have it. And they got good pizza. So.

You might get robbed there, but it's fine. That's life. The museum is great. Yes. The museum is un-fucking-real. Yep. And then I was happy to leave Naples. That is my fun little brief overview on colonization. Sorry it's not more about exactly cities, but I kind of wanted to step into what it looked like more than... Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah. No, but I think that's, it's interesting. Yeah. Cause it is so different from what we think now. And it's so different from what the Romans were going to come in and do. And like, I mean, understanding that nuance that like colonialism broadly is, I mean, when we talk about it in that way, usually we're referring to the last few centuries because that is what is affecting the world right now and destroying the world and killing everyone that isn't Western. Exactly.

But yeah, we have to remember that like there is this enormous history of colonization that doesn't always include like that level of cultural destruction going along with it or like genocide. Or, um,

the intention of it is different. And I think that's, yeah. Cause modern colonization, like we were saying, it's very insidious. There is a goal there of, it's about controlling. Yeah. And money. It's about controlling the trade routes, controlling the people, controlling people who aren't white. You know, they weren't going around colonizing except for poor Ireland. You know, the, you know, it was, it was all,

like how these people that I think with the big the big thing too that stands out to me when we talk about it comparatively and like we do have this term of barbarian and that goes a long way but at the same time the level of dehumanization in modern colonialism that's the thing that to me makes such a huge difference and like the notion of barbarian just does not go there at all it's nothing like

the level of dehumanization of particularly the Americas coming over and being like, these people aren't a civilization and thus we can take it. Like, yeah. And they had their like tripartite, uh,

systeming of culture and society and how it evolved where first you were savages and then you're barbarians and then you're a civilization. And I'm like, whoa, motherfuckers. No, that's the thing. That's the dehumanization. Yeah, that's what's so different. Whereas the Greeks called them barbarians, but they didn't actually like the term barbarian as we see it now has modern connotations. It was really just like they're not Greek. They did think they were lesser. They're not speaking Greek.

They're not doing it the right way. It's yeah. But it did not have the level of dehumanization. It was about being different. It was xenophobia, but it was not the level of like these people being

like are not human at the same tier and that's what modern colonization does and is so fucking disgusting yeah and i think because when i look at um greek colonization in the apoikia's context not in the clerics clerics is straight empire building yeah that's athens being athens yeah in an apoikia context it is it is looking at something and going okay this is them um

solving a problem, which the problem is there are now there's the population has gone up too much for the mother city or the original polis to support the

So what's going to happen if you can't keep people happy? If you don't keep people happy, they revolt. Everyone needs to follow French's, France's... Revolt. Oh, those guys, they know how to revolt. Oh, they do. And let me just say, they get things done. Lately, I've been feeling the need to emphasize these terms like revolt and rebellion and resistance because they are called that in hindsight because

But over the last 20-something years, we have been taught to call things that... In 20 years, we will call them rebellions. We will call them resistance. And over the last 20 years, we've been taught to call it something else. A word I'm not going to say because last time people... But I know what I'm saying, guys. Okay.

Uh, well, that was timely, Michaela. And we're doing great. Yeah. But it's interesting. We have to understand the past other because like, I mean, we're all any one of us who's been paying attention. Yep. We're all watching history repeat itself right now. Yeah. We're watching the news say that that was an awkward.

hand gesture or where we're just like we're we're watching history repeat itself and i think that the best way of dealing with that as historians or people in that realm at all like is to just revisit it and look at it and break that shit down so make it make it accessible and yeah show people and and you know give people resources so that they can because you know i think

I understand my privilege as being somebody who is in academia and who is in a top rated school in Canada. I worked my ass off to get here. I will say that it wasn't easy. But I recognize that.

so much of history is very much so locked behind the paywall of university and I hate it too and if I can do my part and bring it to people yeah that's well that's why this show is fucking fun thank yay thank everyone for listening because honestly the fact that we can do this and we have this platform because people want to hear this stuff and I yeah it's really cool it is ironic now that I've I'm realizing it maybe we can't release this one as the first paywall episode no let's start it

in February. Next week. Next time. Sorry. February will be paywall. I'm sorry. We're doing it because we need to fund our resistance to this stuff and we want to use this money to bring lots of else to you that we can't say yet. And if people want information, message me. I'm very awkward with people, so if I take forever to respond to people, I'm sorry. But

On Instagram, I'm Pythia Wannabe. On Blue Sky, I'm Pythia Wannabe. If you want information or if you just want someone to be like, hey, maybe to look into something for you and help guide you towards something, shoot me a message. I will get to it eventually. Just give me a little bit of patience. But I will be absolutely happy to help direct people towards something.

Yeah. I'm very happy to do that. So, you know, that's where you can find me or you can just don't email Liv unless you really want to, in which case she'll just forward it to me. It's fine.

No, but we really do have so much in mind and we are working towards so much that we hope to be more of this, more of spreading history in this way and accessible history and nuanced history. And yeah, so, but thank you all so much for listening. I'm not going to try to read out credits because Michaela's on here with me anyway.

Yes. So here we are. I am Liv and I love this shift. And I'm Michaela and I'm here too. Yeah.

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