Dulé Hill: Move a Mountain
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Hello, everybody. Welcome to literally Dulé Hill. Charlie Young, for you West Wing listeners, joins us today. Currently is starring in The Wonder Years on ABC. One of my favorite people in the business and just a wonderful actor. He can be funny, he can be dramatic, and just one of the all-around great guys who everybody loves. Let's go with Dulé Hill.

I love it. It's a mini West Wing reunion. It's a new iteration of Wonder Years. So much done with my man, Fred Savage. Oh, yeah. You saw him the other day, matter of fact, didn't you? I did. I was in it. I was in it. You're in Atlanta shooting the new Wonder Years, which is doing great. It's already on the air and everybody loves it. And yeah.

Frederick J. Savage, as I call him, from Grindr fame. We went and had dinner. It was great. He loves you. I was so excited. I didn't even know you were... Obviously, until it came out, I was like, well, but who's playing the dad? That's a huge part. It's a big part. I'm like, how did you not tell me, Fred, that my guy was doing it? Are you having a great time? I'm having a blast over there. I really am. I'm really honored to be able to tell this story at this time. It's a good time. We're just having...

All the talent that I'm able to work with every day, going from Saladin Patterson to Fred Savage to the entire cast. E.J. Williams, who's playing Dean, which is the Kevin Arnold role. He's really a phenomenal young actor. How old is he in real life? I think E.J. might be about 12, 11 to 12.

Don't get me to lie. And if I'm wrong, EJ, then I send my apologies. You know what I'm saying? So is he, he is a child actor. He's doing all that. Like, all right, back to school. Oh yeah. Shuffles. Oh gosh. I do not. I tell him every time I'm like, I do not miss that. I hated it. I think I was doing sugar Hill. I think it was during sugar Hill when I turned 18 and I was had to do my onset tutoring the day before. And on my 18th birthday, I said, I'm not doing this anymore because I was 18. I was like, you know what? I'm not coming. It's over. It's over.

It was so liberating at the time. I mean, I will say one of my tutors was when I was doing the Tap Dance Kid, Dr. Ibrahim Abdul-Malik. He actually became one of my lifelong mentors. He just passed away this last year, but he lives 93 years old. He can't be mad at that journey.

No, for sure. How you been, man? What's been going on with yourself? It's great to see you, man. I'm good. I'm bummed we didn't get to connect in Atlanta, but I was there only for like five weeks and working every day and all of that, but...

Yeah, it's good to see you. You look great. Thank you. You don't age. I'm just trying to keep up with you, Roberto. You know what I'm saying? You are like the epitome of not aging. You are like the epitome of getting better with time. You see? Well, you're very nice to see that. How old were you when we first met? I think I was about 20. I think I joined West Wing when I was 23, if I'm not mistaken. 23 into 24.

And I'm trying to think of, was that like episode seven? No, it was episode three. It was only episode three? No way. A proportional response, episode three. I mean, I know it was early, but I didn't, episode three. You know, and I, because I had, and I, that was my test. Like I had a series, I was guaranteed four episodes, but technically I was a special guest star for the first four episodes that I was on the show. But I had a series regular deal set up and they would have, they had the option to pick it up.

after the first episode of Proportional Response, they picked up my option. They didn't even wait the rest of the year. They're like, yeah, this kid's great. Yeah, so I was like, all right. I was really concerned about being able to pay my rent for the rest of the year. So once they picked up my option, I said, well, at least now I can have a little bit more runway in my life. Did you, I'm assuming because everybody did, did you audition and read with Aaron? I did. I had just been dropped by my old agents a few months before because I hadn't booked it.

During that pilot season, it had been about a year since I really had booked anything substantial. And they were going through some changes and they wanted me to move on. So I moved over to a new agency. And then there was, I guess, during that year before, maybe that was in 98. 98, I tested for this pilot called Bloomington, Indiana. I went to studio for it. I didn't go to network, but I went to the studio test for it. I didn't get it.

But there was a casting director named Kevin Scott who remembered me from that audition. And when West Wing, the role of Charlie, was coming along, and he and John Levy were casting it, he searched me out. I wasn't at my old agency anymore, but he went and found who I was with and said, please have Dule coming for this role. Wow. And so I was like, OK, West Wing, I knew who Aaron Sorkin was. And I remember watching the pilot before our audition. I said, if they could do this every week, this would be one of the greatest shows ever on television.

The question would be, can they do this every week? Because this is a phenomenal pilot. I went into the over there. Warner Brothers went in. I met with Kevin first in his office. We kind of read through the scene like once or twice. Just make sure I had the pacing right. He told me Aaron is very specific about his words. So make sure you have the words right. Cool. Yep. Walked across the hall, went in and met Aaron Sorkin. It was Aaron was there. I think Tommy Shlomi was there for that one.

And then maybe Michael Lehman, he might have been directing. Yeah, he might have been directing that episode. Michael Lehman might have been there or not. But then I went and read for him, did it. A week later, I got another call back. And this time it was Aaron, it was Tommy, it was Michael Lehman, and it was John Wells.

So, you know, I'm like, this is crazy because that's the guy who wrote You Can't Handle the Truth. That's the guy who produces ER. I'm like, what the heck is going on here? And I need a job because I don't have any more money. So, but I read for him and that was it. I didn't go, I didn't do any tests after that. There was no studio, not anything from there. Next thing I know, I'm here, you know, looking at you and looking at Martin and looking at Allison and

I mean, when I tell you I was nervous, I mean, just the fact of being in the room with all of you, I was like, this is crazy. This is crazy. That's Martin Sheen. That's Rob Lowe. That's that's Allison Janney. That's John Spencer. This is crazy. And then, you know, and then the scene that we did with me sitting, getting interviewed by me. Yeah. Yeah. I was like, this is crazy because just a few months ago I was dropped by my agent and just a month ago.

I was telling Freddie Prinze Jr., like, brother, I need to get a job or else I'm coming to live with you because I don't have any more money. And now here I am doing a scene with Roberto Lowe. That's the great thing about our business. And, you know, I...

You know, I'm a jaded old veteran. So there's a lot of some grumpy old man now. So there's a lot of stuff that I hate. But that is the thing that keeps you waking up every morning is you never know. First of all, just the pilot you didn't get. You're like, God damn it. I would have loved to have got it. That you not getting the pilot got you the West Wing. Right. The blessing was me not getting the pilot. And when we if we remember that.

In our lives, our lives are so much better because there's nothing bad. Everything has a reason. It just takes a while to play out. I didn't realize that that was the genesis of it. I remember vividly, though, working with you that first. I feel like the first time we worked here was in the Roosevelt Room. And I think we were interviewing you for the job was the scene, right? Yeah, exactly. I was here for a messenger job.

I think I said something like that. That's right. Oh my God. We had so much fun. I mean, I, I mean, uh, you know, I could always count on you on the, remember how awful those Fridays were? Oh yeah. They're legend, legendary. We would start shooting like 6 PM and wouldn't, you know, finish till Saturday morning at 6 AM. And, and,

I knew it was getting gnarly when I would hear the tap dancing. Like when the tap dancing started, I knew we were grinding, right? Here's the thing. I still, to this day, I still tap dance on set. It's just, it is something I started during the West Wing. And it's something that stayed with me ever since. And speaking of the tap dancing, I remember I could dance anywhere in the West Wing except Mrs. Landingham's office. If I started to dance in Mrs. Landingham's office, Catherine would look up and she would say, Dulee.

And I would know.

That's amazing. You can go in the Oval Office, you can go down the portico anywhere else, but inside here, we're going to keep it quiet. That's amazing. She would say it lovingly, you know what I mean? But she was always like, too late. I can just see her, too late. The great Mrs. Lanningham. You had one of the great, we had a lot of great moments in West Wing, but one of the great ones of all time is getting that awful phone call, Mrs. Lanningham's accident death. You're

You're the one who answers the phone, right? You know, when I first was rehearsing it, there was a lot of emotion because like, oh, my gosh, Mrs. Landingham, Mrs. Landingham died. And I was kind of receiving with a lot of emotion. And Aaron came and saw the rehearsal and he said, Charlie has been around death far too often.

His mother lives there in Southeast D.C. His mother was killed in the line of duty. And he kind of was like running off a few different things. So he's kind of a little numb to it. So when you hear this news about Mrs. Landingham, yes, it affects you, but it's a call you've received before. And that really changed. So it changed the performance where really I was more stoic, really.

Once I heard it, I heard it, delivered the information and kept on moving. That was like, you know, that was one of those Sorkin moments that I vividly remember because he came in and gave a specific note that I thought was a really good note and made its way into the performance. That's a great piece of direction. I mean, and that's why the show, well, I think why the show was so smart were choices like that. That's a super smart, super counterintuitive choice.

But 100% logical when explained makes perfect sense. Note, but nine out of 10 writers would, would not do it that way. And nine out of 10 actors would not do it that way. And you got to have, and you got to have somebody at the helm of the show, like Aaron, who is unquestioned because otherwise, well, maybe we should also do one. Right.

Right. Right. How many times have you seen that? Right. And what I learned doing early on doing the show was if you just trusted the process, the scenes worked, the story worked because the instinct initially when you couldn't get the words right would be like, well, why can't we just do it like this? Why can't we just add this or add that? It's like, because that's not the way he wrote it. And once you, once you found that rhythm, it really worked. It helped me learn how to trust a little bit more.

in the process, you know, trust the words. I, same for me early on, you know, we, we, you have a long career and you work on some things that are better written than others. Some things, you know, it's really upon you as an actor to, to bring the life to it because it may not be that well written. Right. Um,

And I remember a director, maybe it was somebody taking me aside and just saying, he didn't say all you have to do is say the words, but basically that's what he was saying. And he's right. It's like, there's no, you don't got to put, you don't have to put any top spin on it. You don't need to, you know, you don't need to do anything other than say the words, which by the way.

As we saw, I mean, not all the time because our casting was great on the show, but every once in a while, guest cast would come through and it's hard to just say the words. A lot of great actors could not do it. That was the best training ground I could ever ask to be a part of. Doing the words of Aaron Sorkin, having Tom Islami direct the

Working with all of you all like you and Richard and Martin and Allison and Stockard. And every actor on the show had a speciality, I thought, like that were super, super crazy. Like I marveled. I talk about it a lot, but I just marveled over John Spencer's ability to get more out of two lines than most people could get out of a soliloquy. Oh, yeah. I mean, he he could make the line. Thank you, Mr. President.

mean 500 different for real right exactly really and truly and and and allison don't get started on allison oh my gosh i mean she's i think people always ask me who i think the best actor i ever worked with and and i i think it's it's i think it's allison and i don't think anybody's close after that actually yeah i don't think i don't think there's anybody close for me either i mean allison by far is

the most gifted actor I've worked with. Yeah, she really is phenomenal in what she delivers. For myself, it set the bar so high that it really stayed with me in my career. I've taken those years of the West Wing along every step along the way as I've gone forward. This is the bar. Now, I know that we don't always achieve that level of craftsmanship and that level of skill, but that's always what we're leaning into. If you're going to do it, then let's really do it.

If not, then we might as well go home. And I say this for myself is because I came in really as a student with that cast, I didn't have a chance to learn bad habits. Because as you were saying, everybody came in really putting all of their... Leaning into it, giving their all to it, trying to raise the bar each episode, each season. It didn't leave room for me to start picking up bad habits from people because that wasn't that environment. Do you remember what the energy was like for that? It was like...

It was like a playoff game every week when we did those table reads. I mean, it was electric. People used to want to come and sit in on the table reads. If I'm not, if I'm recalling correctly. Yeah. And people did every once in a while. In fact, the Mrs. Lanningham death table read Brian Williams, the newscaster was there with his family and I'll never forget it. And because no one knew we were killing Mrs. Lanningham. Right. At least I don't want to. I don't think Catherine knew. Nobody. I mean, it was, we couldn't believe it. It was like, what's happening. And I looked over at Brian Williams is like, isn't,

is it always like this? And his newscaster voice. I'd never forget filming in DC. We were on location somewhere and I did a scene and I went back to video village and then who was sitting there, but the former secretary of state, Madeline Albright. They're really, I was like, what in the world is happening with my life? This is crazy. How are you doing madam secretary? Oh wow. This is unexpected. Remember the first time we went to DC and, uh,

I'll never forget. It was Aaron Sorkin, me, somebody. I feel like I don't know who I've got. We were anyway, we're in the Oval Office. I remember Aaron and I being there and and and President Clinton was pitching story ideas. Oh, wow. To Aaron. Like he was like, oh, you guys. And I'll never forget. So here's what President Clinton pitched. I'll never forget. Standing in front of the Resolute desk. Aaron.

And me standing together, you know, how like uncomfortable Aaron can be meeting people like meeting normal people. Aaron can get super uncomfortable. So he's being the president of the United States. So Aaron is at his twitchiest sort of craziest, like jumping out of his skin that he can possibly be. And President Clinton is like, I think you guys should do a story about these young kids that come here. They give their all there. They work for nothing. They all these hours and then they make friends with somebody in the press. That person just shit boxes them.

And I remember thinking, what does that mean? Shitboxes them. And that was Clinton's

pitch and Aaron was like, oh, okay, voila, that's a good idea, Mr. President, and I gotta go. And Aaron turns and like fled. Fled. I was like, Aaron, you just chilled the President of the United States. Because how do you tell the President that's a terrible idea? How do you say, I'm not going to use that? Shitbox. And how do you say, I don't understand what shitbox actually means, Mr. President. ...

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Qualifying plan required. Wi-Fi were available on select U.S. airlines. Deposit and Hilton Honors membership required for 15% discount terms and conditions apply. It's been a great journey, brother. I'm very thankful, you know, to be able to go from the West Wing to Psych, to Suits, and now to the Wonder Years. In my mind, I'm always blown away at the journey. You know that the West Wing pilot and the Wonder Years pilot are renowned as the two

Like most perfectly formed pilots did like like when people talk about like if you see The Sopranos or whether there's all these great shows, but they even if it takes one or two episodes to develop and sometimes it takes longer. The Wonder Years pilot and West Wing are the ones everybody points to and said those shows arrived fully formed. And look at you and both of them.

Sure enough. The Psych movie's coming out, right? The next one? It is. That just blows my mind, the fact that there is a Psych movie three. It's beyond belief. So that show, okay, so walk me through, because it was always super funny and super good, but it reminds me a little bit of Parks and Recreation, I think, in that it always did...

Not a monster hit, not a disaster, but like just it always did fine. But it just chugged and chugged and chugged and chugged along. Right. Sure enough. And had like it's, you know, it's fan base just kept slowly and surely building. You know, the we had a great run of eight seasons, which I thought was going to be the end of it. And then the idea to be able to go and do one movie was, oh, that's pretty cool. Who would have thunk it?

Yeah. And now we did the second one and now it's to be the third one. And I think what has helped has been the growth of streaming because streaming has allowed for easier access to the catalog, which in turn has allowed folks who are fans of the series to then expose it to a younger audience and even wider audience. But I mean, I mean, we started, we did that pilot in 2005.

It's crazy. We are in 2021. It's absolutely ridiculous. I'm really blown away by it. And I'm so appreciative of the Psych fans, the Psychos for their engagement. It's only because they stayed engaged over the years while we've had the opportunity to keep telling that story. I love the show set in Santa Barbara, my hometown. I'm talking to you from Santa Barbara right now. And we've not shot one day ever in Santa Barbara. Not one day ever. Not one day.

You know what happened on one episode? I should have sent you that clip years ago. There's one episode where there's somebody I think is working as a as a reporter in Santa Barbara. And we're talking to them. And somehow we worked in your name. Like something he has to go and do something about about Rob Lowe. Amazing. I said, yeah, he he likes to eat oysters at Lucky's. You know what I mean? Yeah, yeah.

That's our spot, man. That's our spot. Yeah, you and me. The first time I ever had oysters was over there with you. Sure enough. Yep. That's a life moment you and I shared. You know what I mean? And then anytime I'm back there, first of all, anytime I even get close to Santa Barbara, you know I'm calling you. And if you're around, I'm like, let's go to Lucky's. Yep. That's too good. Tell me what's happening with Lights Out. What's the latest? Well, the latest is once...

theater continues to open back up we're going to be doing like a workshop in new york for financiers because the goal is to get it to broadway that's the next step that we're looking to take if we're going to do it let's get it to the main stage now mind you daniel j watts who plays uh sammy davis in the play he now got nominated for a tony because he's playing ike turner in uh the tina turner musical on broadway now

Wow. You know what I mean? He was a stud. It's such a great show. I just loved it, loved you in it. I can't imagine that you guys won't get your shot to do it on Broadway. It just ticks every box, you'd think. Yeah, I think that it's a great time for it to happen now. I think the message of what is being, this happened before all of the social uprisings of 2020. That's right. But that's exactly what the piece was talking about.

It's exactly what the piece is talking about. So I think it would be a great conversation piece to have on this stage now. You kind of pull back the layers a little bit and delve into the psyche of what goes on. You know, so we'll see. We'll see how it goes. I mean, Patricia McGregor, who is the director and co-writer and Coleman Domingo, who's the co-playwright. They're very passionate about getting it done. So I trust them.

We're going to see more of Lights Out and Nat King Cole. And the family loved it. One of the most touching things to me about doing that show was, one, when Freddie Cole came to see the show, who's Nat King Cole's brother. And Mr. Freddie Cole has now passed away as well. He was like,

You're telling the story. You got it. This is I kind of saw you and was thinking it was my brother up there. And wow, he saw that early on in the process. And then his mystical knacking calls two daughters came to see the show. And they said, this is the story of our father that needs to be told. And that really touched me because it's wonderful to have audiences love it. It's wonderful to even have critics love it.

But more importantly for me is those who are connected to the story, who really know the story. Does it check your boxes? Is it Tim? Are we doing justice to your story? Because the Cole family, this is your story. That's your father. That's your brother. Yes, it's Nat King Cole at large for us, but this is someone who's very connected to you. So the fact of getting their approval really matters.

warmed my heart and kind of, I guess, inspired me to keep going forward with it. What's your favorite Nat King Cole song? Chestnuts roasting on an open fire, Jack Frost nipping at your nose, Yuletide carols being sung by a choir. That one. And folks dressed up like Eskimos, everybody knows. I love that song. I love that song. The Nat King Cole Christmas album is the best album ever. Yeah, he's a phenomenal, phenomenal artist. And he

I can relate to him in the early on when I started the process of that piece. I can relate to him of as a black artist in this world, a black man in this world. There is a way that you maneuver yourself. And there are times that you really have to swallow a lot sometimes to say, OK, I'm not going to lose my mind right here. You know what I mean? And I can relate to that. I can understand that. And I feel like.

especially Mr. Cole back in the, you know, there was so much that he and other artists like him had to really suck up to move the ball forward that I truly admire and appreciate him. And not only that, one of the interesting things that you don't think about that's in the play is like people who are more overtly active and

We're like, why aren't you doing this? And that's a sort of really interesting wrinkle, I think, in the play. Yeah. It's like there's different ways to skin a cat. Exactly. And he had a very specific...

sort of point of view and mindset. He wasn't ambivalent about it, but he had a sort of his own way of, of, of going about the same sort of social justice that everybody else was doing, but it was super different than Sammy Davis's super different than, you know, other folks as well. And look, and he was being in showing up in, you know, television homes every week on television in the most intimate place of people.

and being welcomed and people enjoying what you're doing and connecting to you, that also is moving the ball forward. That also is chipping away at some of the prejudices that people have in their mind because they see you and they connect to you and they realize that there are things that are familiar to, like with them about you. And it's not always, like there's always different lanes that everyone has to play. And that's what I respected about his story. That's what I respected about, I really appreciate about the play.

is that it explored the nuance of the revolution, the nuance of movement, the nuance of change, the nuance of moving the ball forward, the nuance of bringing people together. You know, there's not just one way to do it. It's a little bit of what Wonder Years is doing now. It is. Early on, when I first read that the show was being done, I've known Saladin Patterson for quite a long time. He was one of the co-exec producers on Psych.

So I was one, I was very happy for Saladin to have an opportunity to tell this story. But then two, I turned to Jasmine Simon, my wife, and I was like, Jasmine, if this is the type of, if I was going to do network television, this is the kind of show I would want to do because there is heart, there is humor, there is joy, there is passion. There's also struggle.

And really what I connected to was in the midst of all the tumultuous times, what was going on in the late 1960s, this family, which is like so many families across the country, stayed connected in love, in unity, in understanding. And they were able to create their very own wonder years with inside their walls in spite of what was going on out in the country as a whole.

So I really connected to that. And I feel that taking a show like the original Wonder Years, which is so beloved by so many and just expanding the lens, turning the camera just a little bit, that this also could help bridge gaps and build unity because people could then see experiences that are very familiar to them. They're like, that's just like my family. That was just like me coming up. But also see how the journey can be a little different for someone who

Who looks a little different than yourself. I think there's power in that. And this version of the one years to me is only one version, but there are countless versions of the one years that we can tell

inside this country because we're such a dynamic, diverse country. And there's not just one story to tell. There's not just one of this. This is the only way to tell the wonder years. There's wonder years for me. There's wonder years for you. There's wonder years for an Hispanic family. There's wonder years for an East Indian family that's here. There's wonder years for an Irish family. There's wonder years for a Japanese family. There's so many stories that we could tell that if they had the

to share those stories. I guarantee you we would find things that were entertaining. We would find things that would make us laugh. We would find things that would make us cry. We would find things that we could connect to. And we would also find things that we'd be enlightened to, to say, well, I didn't realize that that's how that experience was for them. I would get a broader understanding of someone else's point of view. What is also interesting is when you take like a national event

that everybody participates in and then see how it affects families differently, that's the shift, right? And I think that, you know, if they ever were to do more, let's just say, it should always be within that timeframe. That's a magical timeframe. Yeah, I mean, as I was preparing to do the role and start really taking the time to look back at that time, it was like, man, there was so much going on. The scary thing, also the encouraging thing, as I was preparing to do the role,

And I looked back at that time is that so many of those things we're still going through today. It's a little different. It's not as overt or this or that, but a lot of those struggles are still there. But the empowering thing about it is that even if you look back then, there was a community of people who came together trying to move the ball forward. And even today, there's a community of people who are trying to move the ball forward, who are trying to

Get to a place where there's equality for all, where there truly is justice for all, where there truly is equal opportunity for us of success for all, no matter what you look like, what your orientation is. You know what I mean? Like really making, making who want America to be, let be all that she says she is. Why don't you run for office? Oh man, look, I'm not kidding. I'm not kidding. I'd vote for you. I think I'd camp. I'll be your Sam Seaborn. I will.

I'm like, if Aaron Sorkin writes all my speeches, then maybe. He'd do it. Dude, if you called him and said, Aaron, listen, I really want to make a difference. I'm going to run. He would do it. I think I'm afraid to ask Aaron that because if he said yes, then I'd be caught out there. He'd be like, sure. Then you have to do it. Well, no, Aaron, you're supposed to say no. That's right. Have you ever thought about it? No. I mean, I...

You know, I know my lane, you know, I'm in and I don't try to get it confused. It's like I'm an actor, I'm an artist, and I use the space that I've been given to do my part. Because even as we talked about before with with Nat King Cole, there's different ways to skin a cat. And I always say, you know, it takes a billion. If we have a billion people to move a billion stones, then we can move a mountain. But we can't all move the same stone. We have to do our part to move.

to bridge the gaps. And my thing, at least at this stage in my life, is the arts. Telling stories, sharing stories, and hopefully the stories that I share can allow people to see themselves and connect with folks. Even like Psych. What I liked about Psych, it's a very lighthearted comedy. What I liked about Psych so much though was Sean and Gus, one being white, one being black,

loved each other, appreciate each other for exactly who they were. They didn't never try to act like one was not white and one was not black. No, it was never a thing. And they have a real brotherhood, a real friendship that has lasted the test of time. I like the idea of putting that out there. And you guys are hilarious. Did you have instant chemistry when you met? We pretty much did. I mean, I remember we connected, well, really,

I had the chemistry read. I had a chemistry read first, which first of all, coming from Aaron Sorkin and then going to work with James Roday Rodriguez is like he talked about the pendulum swing. I knew my lines. I knew the words. Just do the words. That's what I came from. Just do the words. That's right. I get there. We start doing the scene and this dude is all over the place. I'm like in my mind and he really had he really had the role. So in my mind, I'm like, is this dude trying to sabotage my life?

You know, my read right here, what's going on? Like you're going all over the place. But then, you know, I mean, at the same time, I think being a tap dancer, I was able to just go with it. And then after we did that, when I was going to go to network, he actually came to my house to work on the material before my read, which I thought was so gracious of him because he had the job. I can't say that I would necessarily have done that. In my mind, I'm like, well, I already have a job, so...

If you want to work on it, then you can come to me. Same, right? Here's my address. Right. You ring the doorbell. I will answer. Neither one of us came with any ego. We came just trying to do the best work. Let us have fun. Let's just try to make a funny show. Let's see what happens. And that really, I think, helped the dynamic. Because once we came that way, then everybody else had to fall in line. So it worked.

Didn't leave room for egos to flourish in that dynamic. Right. Which I kind of I kind of gathered from the West Wing as well. I look, we're here to have fun. We're here to do the work, tell the best story. And really with Rodea, I applaud him because, yes, it's a two hander, but he is more of a lead than Gus is. He wasn't always so concerned about being the funny one.

Right. We all worry about where is the comedy? Wherever the comedy is, let's do it there. If it's going to work for me to be funny, great. If it's for Tim Amerson to be funny, great. Maggie Lawson, great. Corbin Bernson, great. You know what I mean? Yep. And I think that helps the chemistry as a whole because it wasn't, people weren't so tight with it.

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♪♪♪

Tell me about Suits. How did Suits happen? And most importantly, did you go to the royal wedding? Most importantly, I did not. I did not go to the royal wedding. I was not invited to the royal wedding. Boo. You see what I'm saying? You see? Boo. Now, the rest of the cast did, so I heard all the stories about the royal wedding when they came back. How royal was it? Was it royal? I bet it was royal beyond royal, royally, royalson. They had a good time.

But I heard that the cuisine was not the best, though. It's England. And the higher you go in England, the worse the food gets. You see? For sure. Oh, for sure. You want good food, go get fish and chips at the pub. That stuff's dope. I hear that. You go to a palace, get ready to starve. Yeah. That was a story that I do remember that they came back with. But getting the show, I got suits because Doubt got canceled pretty much. And again, it's funny how things work.

Because that was coming out and I thought it was going to do very well. It was on CBS. It was myself, Katherine Heigl, Elliot Gould, Laverne Cox, Steven Pasquale. Jesus. Hitters. Yeah. So you figure like, okay, this is all coming together. I thought that, okay, this is going to be really good. But it just didn't land. It didn't land. By like the third episode, we were off the air. But because the billboards were out there,

Aaron Korsh, who was the creator of Suits, was a very big West Wing fan. So he was a fan of mine from the West Wing. And Suits was at USA. And once he saw the billboard, because I was a lawyer in that, he was like, Dulé would be good. He would be a good addition to Suits. He would be a good character to bring on. But too bad he's on this show now. When Doubt got canceled, he called up Stephen O'Neill over at USA.

They reached out to me to see if I'd be interested. And here's the thing. I mean, I was a fan of the show for all those years, got new suits, being on site. You know what I mean? Yep. And then I really wanted to do something. One reason why I even took that, I wanted to do something where I could be a little more slick. Like put on some suits, look a little more grown. That was what I had desired to do next. So when that opportunity came, I jumped at it. But also, Rob,

I took something out of your playbook. Tell me, baby. I want to hear. I always call it like it's the Rob Lowe playbook. Now, if you go and you do a show and it doesn't do well, go jump on something that can be a hit. That's already a hit. Go jump on something like joining cast. Don't go back and try to keep doing shows. Keep doing shows. Keep doing shows. That's right. You do it. And that's that's what I did. So you know what I did? Doubt it got canceled. I'm not going to go and do another pilot.

Then the pilot doesn't get picked up or I do another pilot and then a pilot gets to air everything. It's canceled after two episodes. No, you're not going to... Right now I have the thing of West Wing site. I'm not going to be caught up in...

the show killer. You know what I'm saying? So when the opportunity came, it fit everything that I wanted it to do. It was a cable show, so I wasn't going to be working all year long, especially as I was going into a new stage of life. And then I was able to be more of a man on screen because it was a slick and sexy show. And then I also could put some distance between the show that

I was just on that I was one of the leads of that got canceled, like quickly canceled, not canceled after 10 episodes or three, three and out. Oh, I've been there. I was like,

I remember my tweet. I remember my tweet after the show got canceled. I was like, wait, so you're telling me you don't just normally do a show and then it runs for seven or eight seasons? That's not how it normally goes? You're like, wait, yeah, all my shows go eight seasons and multiple Emmys, right? But yeah, so that's when the opportunity came along, then that's why I jumped at it. And I loved it. I loved working with that cast. We got to figure out what we're going to do together. First of all, I told Fred, you all need to try to bring back the Grindr.

I loved that show. I loved that show. Even when it was on, I was like, if Rob calls me, I'm coming to do that in a heartbeat. And we would have. We would have in a minute. It is one of those shows that I'm so proud of. Look, I would have loved to have done more. We did get to do 22 of them. And I can't believe a network put that show on the air. That's exactly what I told Fred the other day.

But it wasn't, but at least we got to make 22 of them. And I mean, I wish I could get the psych movie vibe going for the grinder. That would be cool. You know, it's such a funny show. It was so funny. Fred Savage is so funny in it. Yep. It was the part of a lifetime for me. See, well, I'm starting to move it right now. You know what I mean? Grinder movie, the grinder movie.

starring Rob Lowe and Fred Savage. Will you just hashtag that shit all over Twitter for me? You know what I'm saying? Let's grind, everybody. Let's grind. Let's grind. And you can create your own role. You know what I'm saying? Hell yes. Create your own role, man. That'll be great. I would love to work with you again, though. I definitely want to work with you again, though. Hopefully we can make it happen soon because...

It's been too long, brother. Way, way too long. I love you, brother. It's great to talk to you. You look fantastic. And how old's your little one now? Two. He's

He's like two and a half. Come up to Santa Barbara because I'm living on the beach now. We'll go out. Oh, he'll love it. Everybody out on the beach, build sand castles and chill. Oh, yeah. He will love it. He will love it. Well, Levi, we're going to see Uncle Rob. We're going to see Uncle Rob. Uncle Rob. Lucky oysters for everybody. You see what I'm saying? All right. I love you, man. Thanks for being on the show. I really appreciate it. My pleasure. Later. Later.

Du Lay Hill, right? I mean, how great is he? He's the best. So thoughtful. He's like, I could listen to him talk forever. I want him to run. Listen, you heard me. I asked him to run for office. I'm not going to. He's going to get the grinder back in the air, but I'm going to get him elected. How about that? That's the takeaway from this podcast. And now let's let's have a little gander at the lowdown. Hello. You've reached literally in our lowdown line.

where you can get the lowdown on all things about me, Rob Lowe. 323-570-4551. So have at it. Here's the beep. ♪

Hey Rob, Davis here from Des Moines, Iowa. I listen to you every time I tell me to release something. But the question I have for you is, at the time of accepting Parks and Recreation, TV wasn't the hottest thing to do, and it ended up being one of your most popular roles. So how did you feel before accepting the role, and how do you feel after it's completed? Thanks

Thanks, Rob. Love you, man. Great book. Hope you have a great life. See ya. Thanks, man. Yeah, it's it's you're right. When I came up, you know, TV and movies are so much different than they are now. Shows like Friends, ER, The West Wing.

Six feet under the Sopranos, 24, started to turn the tide to writers wanting to be in television. And all of the great things start with the writing. So wherever the writers go is where the actors follow. And really with the success of the West Wing and I think the Sopranos, that moved the needle to television.

And everybody kind of followed. When I did Parks and Recreation a few years later, you know, people forget that show was always beloved by its core group. But it was always, you know, one show away from being canceled. And what's amazing is that...

you know, the Nielsen or whatever the hell that they use to rate the shows isn't always a great barometer because here we are. I have a podcast, Parks and Rec Collection with Alan Yang because the show is so beloved and fans want to talk about it all these years later. And there's no metric for that when you get the Nielsens. So you just never know what's going to stick in people's consciousness. And you're lucky if you have one in a career and to have had the

various different ones is super, super cool. But yeah, thanks for the question. Really good question. And thanks for listening. All right, y'all, I'll see you next week. Don't forget to subscribe to the whole shoot and match, as my great grandpa used to say. That would be fantastic. And I will see you next week on Literally.

You have been listening to Literally with Rob Lowe, produced and engineered by me, Rob Schulte. Our coordinating producer is Lisa Berm. The podcast is executive produced by Rob Lowe for Low Profile, Jeff Ross, Adam Sachs, and Joanna Solitaroff at Team Coco, and Colin Anderson at Stitcher. Our talent bookers are Gina Batista, Paula Davis, and Britt Kahn. And music is by Devin Tory Bryant. We'll see you next week on Literally with Rob Lowe.

This has been a Team Coco production in association with Stitcher.

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All set for your flight? Yep. I've got everything I need. Eye mask, neck pillow, T-Mobile, headphones. Wait, T-Mobile? You bet. Free in-flight Wi-Fi. 15% off all Hilton brands. I'll never go anywhere without T-Mobile. Same goes for my water bottle, chewing gum, nail clippers, passport. Okay, I'm going to leave you to it. Find out how you can experience travel better at T-Mobile.com slash travel. ♪

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