Filmmaker Gavin O’Connor: Theatre Rat
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I have the hair of Farrah Fawcett Majors. Hey, everybody. Welcome to Literally. It is me, Roberto. Today, you know, it's funny. I feel like I don't have enough directors on the show. And I'm solving that today by having a great director named Gavin O'Connor, who, A, directed one of my favorite movies ever, the amazing Olympic hockey movie Miracle with Kurt Russell.

but now has, and also directed the early episodes and produced The Americans, the TV series that I loved. It's one of my favorite TV series of the last 15 years. But he has The Accountant 2 coming out April 25th. Great movie with Ben Affleck. I've heard of Ben Affleck. I know, I've heard of that actor. Anyway, so he's, I'm a huge fan of his. So I'm super curious to find out what he's all about. Let's do it.

Gavin, I'm a huge fan of yours. We got to figure out a way to get on set together one of these days. You make great shit. Thank you very much. Really, really, really great shit. I mean, I don't even know where to begin. First, I mean, I got to talk to you about the fucking Americans, man. I mean, that is such a great... What was that pilot like? You get that script just had to have been great, right? I mean, it was...

It was on the page, right? Yeah, it was on the page. It was beautifully executed and realized script. Joe was an analyst for the CIA. So there was such specificity to the material. And then he had one year of writing. I can't remember what show it was, Rob, but he worked in a writing room for one year and that was his only experience. And then he wrote a pilot and

What was interesting is he'd never been on a set before, so he had no production experience. So, which was great because it allowed us to... He didn't step on my toes in regard to realizing it, but I, of course, would never step on his toes in regard to massive respect that this was born out of his heart and mind. So, it was a really... It was a beautiful collaboration. He did... I love... He wasn't in the business of...

television long enough to quote unquote, learn the rules, right. And be cowed. Right. I mean, no, it's a real thing. Don't you think? Totally. Totally. He was not, um, poisoned yet. It was just fresh and, and innocent and pure. And, uh, he, he was, he was amazing. You know, what was, what was interesting was when I finished shooting it and I was cutting it

And I couldn't get it down to it. It was at FX. So they had, I don't remember what the literal time was, but because they had commercials, it had to be four acts and X amount of minutes. And I couldn't get it to where I needed to get it. And I ended up calling up John Landgraf. I'm like, hey, man, I can't get the show tight enough. And he said, let me see where it's at.

And I'll never forget, man. He watched it and he goes, just add an act. Keep it. Add an act. Just find a, you know, just give me a place where I can do another commercial. He goes, it's my network. I do that. Great. John Landgraf, who runs FX, he's the, he's the, I think the smartest, best taste,

of anybody out there. That's amazing. So he basically just said, just throw a commercial somewhere in what you already have. I learned a lot. You're right. I learned. So he's so intelligent and so savvy and great, just artistic taste. I learned a lot from him. There's a great, I know you've worked a lot with Noah Emmerich.

And Noah's got one of the, I love speeches, right? I love when actors, when somebody throws him some fucking red meat and the actor just gets to go to town. And he has, I don't know what season it is. I feel like it might be early in the Americans where he talks about having somebody in his soft mouth. And it's so great. And it's like, basically the notion is I've got you, but like a hunting dog, I have you in my soft mouth.

And it can go one of two ways. It's so good. He didn't want to do the show. I had to... He's one of my closest friends for 30 years. Oh, really? Oh, no way. Yeah. And he went to Yale with Joe. They were the same year. They didn't know each other. And I couldn't get Noah to do it. And I'm finally like, dude, just...

we just meet with Joe, just sit down with him and have lunch. And they did. And then, and then whatever happened there, I wasn't present for it. They, uh, he decided to do, I think, I think Noah needed to really understand the direction of the character, obviously. And was he going to play a role in this thing beyond, uh, you know, and where's, where's it going to go? So, um, yeah. And you had, uh, my guy, Matthew Reese, who was just coming off of working with me on brothers and sisters.

So it's interesting, man. You know, Matthew, I went out, I just started casting the show and I, and we already had Carrie and I saw Matthew. I went by, I'm a theater rat since I've been a kid. When I was in college, I was always, I went to school in Philly. I was just taking this train by myself and going to New York and watching plays and.

Um, I'm, I'm love theater. And I, and I went by myself to watch this play. I don't even remember the name of it. It was with he and Adam driver. I didn't know either one of them. Wow. Uh, Adam driver, no one heard of yet. And it was, it was just a two of them. It was, uh, and I, when I left, he played Oscar, did he play Oscar wild in it? Possibly? No, it wasn't Oscar wild. Okay. It was contemporary. It was a contemporary play. Um, in any event, I, I called up, uh,

the casting director, I said, can we bring Matthew recent? And, um, and we did and he read and he was fucking great. And Rob, I could not get him past probably Landgraf, I guess. In fact, whoever it was, the powers that be, they did not. And what I found out, cause I had never seen your show brothers and sisters, but I guess he played a gay character. And I think in their mind, they just saw him as gay.

So they couldn't get, and I had never seen it. So I'm like, guys, this is, cause I kept saying the character has to walk between raindrops. He has to be an actor that you can't take your eyes off of on screen, but you also have to believe that no one's going to be looking at him twice when he walks past you because of who he is. It's very tricky. That's a really good point. It's a tricky role to cast. And you know what happened? I brought him back. I think it was like his third audition.

We did this really intense scene and Cary slaps him, whack, across the face. And he took it and kept staying in the scene. And that's how we got the part. Wow. And he's awesome. He's such a great actor. I mean, it was a joy for me to have. He and I did all of our work together on that show. So every day I came in.

I got to work with Matthew and he's a great guy and a fucking amazing actor. And so, and Carrie obviously is a treasure, you know, and a great role for her. I mean, like, like completely revitalized, not revitalized. She didn't need revitalizing, but, but it, it, it made me,

It's like, oh, I didn't know she had that gear. Yeah, like redefined her in a way that she had. Exactly. She had a very different gear. And she does, man. She's a very facile actor and really deep, deep woman. And they had, he had a thing for her too. Like he really was attracted to her.

So they had this electric thing that was going on between them. You know, even in, you know, obviously in conflict, there was still this like molecular thing happening. It was just very alive on set. And it's like, this may be going somewhere. This may be going. Oh, yeah. Well, you know, that's also Reese. Reese would always regale. I mean, women, Matthew Reese is catnip to women. Catnip. Really? Oh, bro. I didn't know that.

Oh, listen, I don't want to out the guy, but his punch list is fucking next. I believe that. I believe that. You know, it's that Welsh charm. Look, if I could speak in that Welsh accent, if you and I could speak in that Welsh accent, just think of what we could accomplish. I'd be Richard Burton. You would be Richard Burton. You would be. All right, so we got to talk also about...

obviously because I was in Youngblood, a lot of people talk about hockey movies. And I like to say, really, there's only two. There's Slapshot and there's Miracle. And Youngblood. I don't even put, look, don't get me wrong. I'm not so self-effacing that I'm going to completely not think of Youngblood. But when I want to watch a hockey movie, it's

Slapshot, I mean, dude. Slapshot's number one for me. Number one. I think it might be Paul Newman's best role. And that's saying something. Yeah. Verdict? Paul Newman's my favorite movie actor of all time. Mine too. The greatest. So we can probably start spitballing the different performances. Yes, we can. But yeah, it's a very hard, it's a high bar. I mean, fucking Cool Hand Luke. My God.

I know, but dude, Reggie Dunlop, come on. First of all, no one has ever said the word, the phrase, fuck it, better on screen ever in anything than Newman as Reggie Dunlop, right? Totally. No, I'm not debating. I mean, it's definitely one of his best roles. And it's the best hockey movie. It's one of the best. It's a brilliant, brilliant film. It's a brilliant film.

It is also a movie with so many one-liners that you could not do today. No, no. There's one or two in particular I'm thinking about that you just, you can't, and I know you're thinking of it too, where you just, you're like, wait, that's the biggest movie star in the world saying that line in a major studio movie. There's just...

No way. So I got to know Paul a little bit at dinners or theater. You'll appreciate this. The Williamstown Theater Festival is still around, but in the late 80s, it was really, really at its peak. I've been there in the late 80s.

Oh, you're kidding. Oh yeah. I, so many of my friends are, you know, either, um, um, Atlanta theater company or naked angels. So they would do, they would go up to, uh, they go up there with the summer, do summer stock. And I go up and watch plays and, but, but, uh, never saw it. Never saw Newman on the boards. Well, he, he was just up there, uh, with Joanne while she was directing golden boy. Uh huh. Yeah. Which was cool. So I got to spend time. I was, I was doing a Chekhov play, uh,

Christopher Walken. Which one were you doing? I was doing Three Sisters. Okay. I was playing Tuesenbach in Three Sisters. Yeah. And we had quite a cast. And I got to know Newman and I actually also auditioned for him for a movie I didn't get to play his son.

that he directed called Harry and Son. Do you remember this movie? Of course, yeah. Wasn't, what's his name? The kid who was in the basketball movie, right? One-on-one. Wasn't that the kid? Robbie Benson. Yeah. It was Robbie Benson. And you'll love it. So I go in. This is the first time I met him ever. I walked into the casting and he's sitting cross-legged on the floor.

wearing his Chiefs jersey. Come on. Yes. Yes. Okay, so what was the audition like? Did he stay on the floor? Obviously, yeah, we just stood on the, we just were on the floor, sort of cross-legged, and I didn't get it. Did he read, so you read with him? I read with him. Oh my God, you read with fucking Paul Millman. And the best was as I was in the waiting room and came out, I think this was the time when Outsiders was,

was still in the can, right? So none of us from the movie had really made names for ourselves, except Matt Dillon, who'd done a couple of movies. And I'm sitting in the waiting room. And, you know, one of the things that was great about auditioning back in the day is you'd hear somebody behind the door and you'd be like, they're killing it or they're bombing or wait, who is that? And the door would open and it would be the reveal. And we'd be like, oh, fuck. And then it was Matt coming out. And so we hugged. We hadn't seen each other since the movie.

since we wrapped Outsiders. And I go, how did it go? How did it go? It's Paul Newman. He goes, he told me I needed to start reading poetry. I don't know what it meant. It always made me laugh.

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for up to 80 minutes. Lightweight, effective, and perfect for sunny days. It is just what your summer needs. Neutrogena Ultra Sheer. Sunscreen you can't feel. Shop now at Target. Was Outsiders your first? Was that your first film? Yeah, that was my first. How did you get that gig? Oh, that... I, uh... So, I...

I never, back in the day, being on the cover of Vanity Fair was like the biggest thing you could get as an actor, right? That was a big deal. And I never got it. But I did get it as a writer when I wrote my first book. And the excerpt that they used to put me finally on the cover of Vanity Fair was me writing about the experience of auditioning for The Outsiders because it was so insane. And

The way that Francis, he took every actor from 13 to 30. If you are a male with a pulse and an actor, 13 to 30, you went to his new studio that he had bought, Zotrope, in Las Palmas, and you sat in a freezing soundstage.

And usually you have an appointment, like you're auditioning at nine o'clock, whatever. And you go to the waiting room and maybe they're late, but either way, you're out of there by what? 1030. We would go, we would start at nine o'clock and we would leave at nine o'clock at night. And everybody was there at the same time. And he would mix and match and you would watch everybody.

you sat and watched everybody. And then you'd suffer the indignity of doing the scene and him going, okay, you can sit down. And then, you know, like Scott Baio would come in and do your part. Or then Mickey Rourke would do, or Dennis Quaid, or Timothy Hutton, or it was just, and you saw anybody and everybody who was there. It's an amazing, amazing story. And I kind of think to this day that

I'd like to think that the best actors got the roles, but I can tell you that the ones who could handle the pressure for sure got the roles. Right. And you had, and had you done like high school plays and things like that before that are commercials or what was your? I started doing summer stock in Ohio where I grew up at eight years old. So if there was like a summer stock

kid part music man or Oliver or any of that. I did it. Then my folks divorced and my mom remarried out here in California. And so I got an agent and started, you know, beating the pavement at like 13 and did a couple of commercials. And then I got my first TV series at 15. And so, um, I, I was at a horrible title, most, most like banal, boring title ever, a new kind of family. Um,

It was with Eileen Brennan, who was hot off of The Sting and all those great character actor. She played my mom. Lasted 13 episodes, went away. But it put me on the cover of all those teeny bopper magazines. Yeah. And Francis, when he was casting The Outsiders, sent an assistant to like the 7-Eleven and had them buy every teeny bopper magazine and put them all up on a whiteboard.

So for sure. And I only learned this a few years ago from the woman who went and bought the magazines herself told me that that was a big, well, that's how Leif Garrett ended up as the Soch because he was, he was all over those magazines back then. Yeah. That's right. He was the, he was the Soch, the rich kid. You know what it was? It was the, when I used to, when I learned it, I thought, God, is that a little insulting? But then I realized, no, it was the early Harbinger magazine.

of where we are today, where the studios want to see people with huge TikTok, Instagram followings in roles where they can thrive. As you know, that's a big thing today. Well, what I sort of know, I have no social media. I don't do any of that stuff. So I don't know who anybody... So we have a... My wife and I have a 25-year-old

My stepdaughter, I have a 22-year-old, and we have an eight-year-old. We started again. But my older ones, I have no idea who anybody... I don't know who anybody is anymore. And these are actors who are on the covers of magazines. So they're obviously very famous, but I'm just... I'm in a cave, I guess. I don't know. I think I could be right there with the cave with you, dude. We could be cavemanning it out together. But I've...

The other part of me goes, the asteroid has hit the earth. Do we just want to be eating our plants off the top of the trees or do you want to adapt? And so the good news for you is you're at such a place where you don't, you're like, you can go and do your shit and it's not going to make any sense.

any difference, but it's, it's the future. You can, you can, it really, really is. But I think you're right. We're of a generation. You know, I, you know, like it just, it's maddening. The phones and the, the, the, the, they're, I just think they're poisoning brains and that's true. They're, they're addictive and,

I don't know. I just, I just don't want to, if I don't have to have my phone, I mean, obviously I do, I text and I email, I look things up, but otherwise I just don't want to go near it. And maybe, you know, maybe I'm going to, you know, maybe that's, I'm going to pay. There's a cost to that, I'm sure. But, um, there's also a lot of benefits. Oh,

The benefits in one's own daily life are undeniable. I think the benefits from participating are stuff that you see maybe over the horizon, but in terms of your daily life, right? It's just... I still get my news. I go to independent. I don't know legacy media anymore. I don't do that stuff anymore. It's all independent news and the world's...

The world's changed a lot in the last five years. Let me ask you a question. Are you a guy who, if you're on a walk or you're skiing or you're skating, that you do that without earbuds in? Because I do. I refuse to go on a run with earbuds or ski. It's like I don't need to be titillated every second of my day. I also want to be. I'm the same way. I wear them when I walk my dog at night.

I do. But otherwise, I want to be able to just absorb life and just be in the moment and be present to what's going on and have my senses alive. And, you know, yeah, so I just be present. So, yeah, I'm the same way. Walk me through... Wait, I have a question. Do you have kids? I do. So my...

I have two boys. My wife and I have been married 35 years. 35 years? 35 years, dude. Are you serious? Congratulations. Isn't that insane? Congratulations. That is a feat. That is beautiful. That's inspiring. Well, you know what it is, dude? It's like a movie is won and lost in casting. Yeah. That's what marriage is. If you cast the right person...

Yeah. You know, but by the way, casting the right person is no guarantee, but casting the wrong person is a guarantee. But even casting 35, you know, we're evolving, right? So, I mean, I know people that were so in love early in their marriage, but they just, they evolved into, into different directions and they, they lost their footing. And so, I mean, I've seen that and, and, and it's not that they part ways, um,

in any kind of enmity or anything like that. It's amicable, but it's, so just to be able to evolve and stay linked is beautiful. That's, uh, that's, that's inspiring, man. She's, um, she came up, Cheryl came on the podcast. She's one of the best performing podcasts I've had in the four plus years I've been doing this, which makes, which makes me laugh. So I've had everybody in anybody. And that's my wife. Did you learn anything new in the podcast from her that you didn't know?

I didn't, but what I did, what the secret sauce was, everybody got to see what I see. Do you know what I mean? And so it was fun. But yeah, so we have two sons. Matthew is my oldest and he's the one I was able to pound every single creative instinct out of.

when he was young enough so that he wouldn't, he would get to be a real human being and stay out of this circus that we call entertainment. And so, uh, he, he, you know, studied, went to Duke, then went to, uh, law school, became a lawyer, and now is in, um,

He's in finance and killing it. And then my other one. Is he out here or on the East Coast? He's in L.A. Luckily enough, he's one of the few guys who found a finance job in L.A. All right. Then my other one, though, went to, when he was in high school, he was one of the youngest interns at the Eli Broad Stem Cell Laboratory at University of San Francisco. And on the basis of that, got into Stanford.

and graduated from Stanford only to tell me that he wants to be a fucking actor. And I'm like, I don't even know where to start with how depressing this is. First of all, I could have saved a lot of money in tuition. You could have been going to Jamba Juice every day and hot yoga. Fuck. And...

So, but, and then I had this nightmare where I would wake up going, oh, I've, with my own fears, I've projected onto my kids. Yeah. My own insecurities, fears, and I've doomed them to a life in a cubicle. And so when Johnny said he wanted to be an actor, I was like, okay, all right. So I don't need to worry about that. And so anyway, he created, co-created

A show that he and I did together on Netflix for two seasons called Unstable, which is a comedy and super funny. We play father and son. Are you serious? Oh, that's cool. I want to watch that. That is so cool. It's really cool. He co-created the show? Yes. Yes. How old was he when he did that? 26. Stud. Well, how about this? And now his next show he created, fully created.

And he sold in a bidding war between Amazon and Netflix. And it's going to be for Amazon. And it's an hour drama. Did he write a spec script, a spec pilot? He did. He wrote a spec script. He's very industrious. He has no problem sitting and writing on spec.

Well, that's the way to do it. I mean, that's, that's the way to do it, but he's not, he's a, he's an artist. I mean, this is not only an actor, this guy's, I mean, he's a real writer to be doing that. That's, that's, he's a, he's a writer first and foremost. And, and that was the one thing I beat into him. I was like, look, our world is different. You gotta, you, he, he was a writer and he was always very good at it. And I was like,

You've got to write your own stuff. Look at the people, whether it's Donald Glover or, you know, Favreau back in the day with swingers. You know, write your own stuff. Ben and Matt with Goodwill, right? Ben and Matt! I mean, that's one of the great stories, right? I mean, they put themselves in it and...

Does he want to direct? Is that in his future? Here's what's weird. Here's what's weird. And I don't understand this. He does not want to direct. And I don't get it because to me, the few times that I've directed, it's the only time where I have felt that I'm using every club in the bag. And I'm never exhausted. I'm exhausted on set as an actor. Exhausted. But as a director, you know, the adrenaline rush

The all of it, it's it's the greatest it's the greatest thing ever. And it's the it's the ultimate authority of all of your faculties and you're the final word. And yet he doesn't want to do it. And I wonder I wonder why I've asked him and maybe he'll change. Maybe he's he's insecure about it. But you to me, if you're a writer and you have a point of view.

you eventually would want to, it's why Aaron Sorkin's directing. I don't think Aaron Sorkin ever said I wanted to be an actor. Yeah. Well, you know, you know, what may happen is if, when the director gets hold of something that he's written and he's unhappy with the results, that'll do it. Things will change.

Because he's had great collaborators. Right. I mean, he basically does get to direct it as it is. He's got me. He's got his people around him. We sit at the monitor. We go, do you like that? I didn't like that. Let's go again. I think we need coverage here. Then he's in the editing room looking at the cut. And as you know, on television, the that is the ultimate authority. It's certainly not the director. I think that he's come up around television.

as opposed to movies is the difference. Yeah, it's so different. It's so different. It's so different. And maybe he needs to... I was one that... Ignorance was bliss, so I had no idea what the fuck I was doing. But I always knew that's what I wanted to do, even as a little boy. But he had, obviously, the exposure of being on sets with you and seeing things and then doing it himself. So maybe he just needs to absorb...

Um, you know, other directors have watched how it's done outside, especially outside of, has he ever written a movie script? Has he tried that? He's, he's, he's got a couple in, in active development. Good on him, man. Right? Yeah. How good is that for you? Right. To be working with your son. Oh my God. What a dream.

It's a dream. You got to watch unstable. It's on Netflix. We, we did two seasons. It was a black, we had with Fred Armisen and, uh, just an amazing cast of super, super, super funny people. I loved it. Is, is, is he, is he going to be in the, in the one hour, the Amazon show? Was he, did he write something for himself or is he just going to be the creator and showrunner? He, he did write,

He wrote the, the, the son part is a great part. It's unclear whether he's going to do it or not. I don't, I don't know. I think it's a function of who, I mean, this is my favorite. The, the, the lead is a great part for me, but he's, he said, dad, we got to stop working together. So I've managed to figure out a way where my own son won't cast me. Yeah.

He's like, Dad, I got to come out from out of the nest. I got to do my own. And so he did. This is all I have nothing to do with this project whatsoever except watching. So hear me, God, right now. If John fucking Ham ends up in this show winning an Emmy or what, I'm going to lose my shit.

Or Billy Crudup. I will lose it. I'll lose it. Now, the good news is right now they're talking to people who are a solid 15 years older than me. And so that's, I can live with myself. Until John Hamm raises his hand and says, I mean. Until the ham bone comes out. When the ham bone comes out, I'm going in. All right, tell me about, we got to talk about Accountant 2. I loved the original.

How did it end up being eight years between movies? I mean, I know because I'm in the movie business. Take eight years to get a phone call returned is the answer. Yeah. Well, I mean, you know. So there was... We started... We attempted to get Warner Brothers to pay for a script in 2018. Jesus. Yeah. And then... And what happened was there was just this...

I mean, you know, there's like a revolving door of executives and then musical chairs. And it was so... Anyway, we finally got them to pay Bill Dubuque, the writer, to do one draft. No polish, no rewrite, one draft. God, yes. And he wrote the draft. And then he ended up doing 14 drafts before we turned it in because we had to get it right.

So he did for, and that's, and that's Bill, Bill. I remember Bill saying to me one day, he said, Gavin, I'm in the business of writing movies, not scripts. So I'll do as many drafts as you need, Susan, which is, which is Bill. And then, um, and then we, we thought we had it going and then, uh, but then Ben started his own studio artist equity. He and Matt. Yep. Yep.

And he said he can't, I guess the deal that he has with his financiers is everything has to run through his studio. Everything he directs and acts in has to be through his studio. Because that was the problem previously with other iterations of that.

of that thing is you'd get these stars and everybody be excited about it, but then they would go and do the hits for somebody else. Exactly. Exactly. Now, Matt, I think it's 50%. I think he's got to do 50% and 50% he can do outside of it. Ben is, so he's like, so I don't know that Warner Brothers was willing to do a co-fi, co-production. I think there was some resistance there. Then there was COVID and then there was the strike, you know, all this stuff happened. So finally, when we came out of the other side of all the craziness,

Warner Brothers graciously let us leave. Wow, that's amazing. That does not happen. Well...

There's some subtext to it. There's some financial subtext to it. Okay. As you can imagine. Yeah. It wasn't for free. It wasn't for free. Yes. I understand now. I understand now. No. You know, there's gangster corporate capitalism at its finest. Yeah. But

Cool. We got out of there. So we ended up going to Amazon MGM because a lot of people that used to be a Warner Brothers are now over there and they wanted it. So we didn't go anywhere else. And, um, and then, but the, the deal we had with, with Amazon MGM is it was a negative pickup. So Ben's company financed it and then we just gave it to them. So it was, um,

It was like making a $1 million independent movie, to be totally honest. It was so liberating to not have. I mean, I could honestly say excluding, well, even Miracle. I mean, there's not a movie I've made that isn't my movie. I've had some fights over it, battles, but twice. But you still have to rope-a-dope at times, you know, to protect your movie. Sure.

from people that at times have no idea what the fuck they're doing or talking about. Right. But this one was, once we got through the business side of it, it was then like, you know, you gotta just go, you don't have to run casting by anybody. You don't have to run, whatever you do with the script, it's like, just I'll see on set. And that's what it was. So I think the movie is definitely reflective of that. This sort of, The freedom. Yeah. This independent,

kind of approach to storytelling. And it's very much a departure from the first film. I learned a lot of the first one and I went in a different direction tonally and I wanted it to be more of a buddy picture. It's very fun. It's very funny. And I also very intentionally, I wanted to make, I think just, so Ben and I made a movie after, we made a movie together recently

called The Way Back, which came out on a Friday and theaters closed on a Monday because of COVID. So it was dead in the water. And then we've all watched our industry sort of tread water, trying to figure itself out and get people back into the theaters. And it's been tough. So-

I also very intentionally wanted to make just a big, fun, entertaining, my version of a popcorn movie is really what I was trying to do. Very intentionally. And I honestly didn't know that I pulled it off until I put it up in front of an audience at the first test screening. And it played like gangbusters that scored through the roof. And that's what everyone was like, okay, I think we got something here. ♪

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It's kind of move. Will you always pick as your leading men? Now that I know that Paul Newman's your favorite actor, it all kind of makes sense to me because I don't know how to, maybe you can help quantify it. There's a certain type of actor, Ben's one. Kurt Russell is on fucking Mount Rushmore. The best. I don't know. They're very male. They...

I don't know. How do you quantify Newman, Russell? It's like, is it just plain old simple movie star? Is it just that simple? Well, you know, each role is different. With Kurt on Miracle, the studio, so I had only made a small independent film

uh, called tumbleweeds, which I financed. I sold everything I owned. I put the rest on credit cards and I, uh, and I had enough money just to shoot the film. I had seen this woman named Janet McTeer or British stage actress. I saw her on stage doing a doll's house, Ibsen play. And,

I mean, it was like she landed from another planet on that fucking stage. It was unbelievable. I've seen her. Have you seen her? Yeah. But that was the first time in the States. She'd never been in America before. And I got her the script and we, she wanted to do with me. And, you know, I didn't have to, it was my own, I was financing it myself. So I didn't have to answer to anybody because people were like, who the fuck did Janet McTeer? She's not going to help you. In my mind, I'm thinking,

This woman's an animal. Like, I know she's so great for the role that, you know, and I didn't really know what I was doing, but I figured...

But like you said, with writers, like I knew what I wanted it to be. Technically I wasn't, you know, I hadn't gotten there yet. It was my first film. But in any event, after that, I had written another script with a buddy of mine and then nine 11 happened. And it dealt with my, my dad was a New York city police officer. So it dealt with corruption in the police department, institutional corruption. And my agent and lawyer were like, what do you have? What else do you have? And I said, uh, like,

It's my script. It's all I have. So I learned the lesson of you gotta, you gotta be moving more than one project forward because we don't have a lot of control at times. Right. So when Miracle, I got sent the script to Miracle, I didn't really respond. And I remember, we're, I'm sure right around the same age, but I remember as a kid watching that game, I was, I was literally this close to the screen when it was over, people in my neighborhood, pots and pans. It was such a,

It was so ingrained in my head, the emotion, the emotion of that night. So that's what I had in me. I'm like, I just want to, I got to excavate that. And I also want to rewrite the script. So I got the job. And then I said, I'm going to cast only hockey players.

They wanted all young actors. They wanted all the young actors. And I was like, you know, I said, it's going to be easier for me to teach kids who can really skate how to not act and just be honest and truthful than teach these other kids. How are they going to be these actors to learn how to skate like that? I don't want these body doubles. I've been there. It's hard. You know, yeah, you know. So I got past that hurdle. And then they wanted Michael Douglas to play Herb.

And Michael kind of looked like Herb. And I was like, oh, that could be interesting. And I went to meet Michael and he was lovely and gentleman. And we had a long meeting and I was really, I had a very specific idea of how I wanted to shoot it. And I said to him, look, we have, I think at that point, there was like five months before we started shooting six months. And I said, you know, I'm going to, he never skated. You said he was a skier. I said, I'm going to need you to skate every day.

And until we can get you to a level of, you know, I'm not expecting you to be Herb because Herb was on the 1960 team. But I said, I need you to be really comfortable on the ice and be a really good ice skater. And I couldn't get a fucking straight answer out of him whether he would commit to it or not. He would say yes. And then he would say, but he had this knee thing and he had a really good double. And I'm like, yeah, I'm not using double. And I just didn't. And it was hard because I never made a studio movie. I made a little independent film.

so when i got out of there they they wanted literally like five minutes out the door of my car the studio's calling me saying we're gonna pull the trigger on him i'm like no no no no i'm not comfortable i don't believe i don't think so and i had to go back the next day to meet him again i still i still kept getting the run around kind of answer and i just didn't trust it and i and so i asked them i said can i please meet with kurt russell because i said kurt

I knew Kurt played sports. He's been in locker rooms. He's been in locker rooms. Well, was Kurt's son a hockey player yet at this point? Kurt was up in Vancouver. His son was a hockey player. And he and Goldie moved to Vancouver. Yeah. And so they let me go meet with him. And I flew to Vancouver. And guess who's waiting for me when I get off the plane? Kurt Russell. No way. Fuck yeah. Fuck yeah. And you know, but this is the truth.

When I get in his car, he's taking me to the house. I get in the car. He looks at me. The first thing he goes, what do you think of the script? And it's that flat. And I didn't get the lying gene. I'm just incapable of lying. And I said, it sucks.

He goes, we're going to be good. Amazing. And then I met with him and I told him, you know, how, what I'm, because what the script had was, it had all the signposts of what we know, but all the connective tissue, all the connective tissue was just this like, it's like, can we just fucking like, let's make this a real movie now. So it was one of those scripts where you go, where again, they come across my desk all the time where it's so clear. It's like a house. You go,

The bones are so sick. But who the fuck puts a, you know, a sunken living room? Jesus Christ. Okay, this has to, so it's that. It's really that. It's exactly it. It's exactly it. So, and a real autopsy on just, you know, character, character, character, and then

And then trying to discover things we don't know. And here's the, so here's lastly, I will say this. I, as I, as I climbed inside the story, Herb spent three months putting the team together and which was in the script. And I'm reaching, I'm like fucking three months. I don't know. Watch. I'm like, I'm going to have him pick the team in a day. Like, fuck this. Like he's, but I go only for, because I had, I had heard that he knew his team.

I, so I called up Herb. I said, can I ask you a question, Herb? I said, I heard that you knew your team going in. He goes, oh yeah, I had the 20 names written down day one. I said, well, why, why did you wait three months to come to the, to go through the song and dance and all the gymnastics to get to the same place? I said, Gavin, it was my first time as an Olympic coach. I was dealing with the AAU and the IOC and all these committees and all the politics. He goes,

I, I, I just had to go, I basically had to go through the political bullshit to get to the same place. And I said, all right, well, let me, I said, like, I'm kind of new to this, but I said, um, in my world, it's the spirit of the truth. That's what you, as long as it's the spirit of the truth. Like if you told me you would never have done that, then I could, but I said,

You knew. So I said, in the movie, I want to have you choose a team in a day because now you're pissing everyone off. You're ruffling feathers. I said, it's a much more interesting character if we start that way. And he goes, I love it. I would have done that. Yes, we're re-mythologized. And he was like, he was so into it. So that's what I did. And then I started asking questions to all the players. And then it became Rashomon because everyone had a different perspective on the same thing. And that was liberating because I'm like, okay, now I'm going to take the best version and kind of massage it to make it

Obviously, I'm not changing the scores. The scores are what they are. But little things like that happen. What about the famous speech, Kurt's great speech? How does that come to be? Does Kurt have a hand in it? Because that's a great moment. There's always going to be that moment where the coach has the speech. Yeah, I think that was there. That was in there. I think that was all. I'm trying to remember. I think that was actually his real. A lot of it was his real speech.

I think a lot of the real speech. Was there a recording of it? How did people know? I don't know. You know, Rod, it's a great question. I don't remember. I probably knew it then. I honestly, I didn't write, I didn't write. That was there. So, I mean, I kept things that were, that worked. Yes. You know, like you said, the pieces of the house that worked, you know, I protected, but everything in between was reimagined. It's such a great movie. And last thing, Kurt was...

you know, my first, he, he could, you know, the wrong, the wrong movie star could have made my life miserable. He was, he was, he was so, so supportive. He was amazing. And, um, and once upon a time in Hollywood, it's, I, I love watching, like I said, I love watching actors when they get the red meat thrown to them and they just fucking devour it like a lion. Right. So, but I also love an actor who comes in amongst other huge hitters and has two scenes, uh,

and absolutely murders. And Kurt as the stuntman, when he goes, when Leo's trying to sell him Brad Pitt, and it's clear Kurt doesn't want to do it, but he's placating and placating and placating, and finally Kurt goes, man, I just don't like the vibe she brings to a set. The way he says it is,

We all know that guy. By the way, it's an era of Hollywood that isn't around anymore. Yeah, yeah. It's going away. That sort of Western...

cowboy, right? Yeah, definitely. And, and like those, those folks aren't on cruise anymore. They're dying out. I know. It's a dying breed. Well, Kurt told me that he, uh, he actually, when I was shooting account too, he came out to set one day and we visited me. We had lunch and stuff like that. And he was telling me that, that regarding that character and that, that scene, he, Quentin was,

Quentin would call Kurt all the time and ask him questions about old Hollywood and stuntmen because Kurt lived in that world, obviously, and knew it so well. So Kurt was very instrumental in infusing the script with a lot of specificity and details. And then he said he went over to... Quentin had him come over to read the script. And then when he was finished, he said, that's when he said, will you please play this part? He was like, of course, I'd do anything for you, man.

It's so good. It's one of my favorite movies. That's my favorite film of Quentin's, and they're all great. But that one is dad and inglorious. Inglorious Passage is brilliant. Apparently, there's a sequel being made. Apparently. There's what? Do you know there's a sequel being made, apparently? To which one? To Once Upon a Time in Hollywood. That Quentin's doing? It's a Quentin script with Fincher directing. Are you...

No, I never heard that. That's the rumor. Can you imagine? It's going to be a very different movie. Can you imagine? I mean, I'm so down for that. Okay. Okay. Kurt Russell and the thing. How about that? How about the thing? Yeah. Greatest ever. Greatest. Greatest. Are you a big 80s movie guy? Yeah. I mean, for sure. I mean, that was when that was. Yeah, we were all paying attention. The 70s and 80s were the golden age.

What are your favorite movies? From the 80s? Yeah. You know, 70s is my decade, but the 80s, if I had to pick a movie from the 80s, I'd probably start with 1980 with The Bull, Raging Bull. Yeah. Then I'd go to the uncut version of Once Upon a Time in America, which I think is one of the greatest gangster films ever made.

There were so many great teen comedies, all those teen comedies, which you were in some of them. There was some of those great, St. Elmo's Fire was great. Do you remember River's Edge? It wasn't a comedy. Remember that teen movie? That was crazy. I love that film. I just did a horror movie, really, really good, fucking freaky, that's coming out for Halloween with Crispin Glover.

Oh, wow. He's in River's Edge. Yeah, he's great. He's great in this. Road Warrior, great movie, right? That was one of the best. It was, you know, blood simple. I love Thief, Michael Mann's first film. Fucking genius. So many good ones. So many. What are yours? 80s, Goodfellas. 90. That was 90. Oh, fuck.

1990, right on the decade. Right on the decade. Well, to be technical, excuse me, but I saw a rough cut in 1989. Okay, then you... It came out in 1990. I did see a rough cut of Goodfellas. It was one of the most amazing experiences I've ever had. How did that happen? So I was friendly with Erwin Winkler, the producer. And we ran into each other walking down the Champs-Élysées. Mm-hmm.

And what are you doing in Paris? And I was promoting a movie. And what are you doing in Paris? And he goes, oh, we should have dinner. I can't. I'm going to see a cut of my new movie with Marty. Oh, my God. No fucking way. You want to come? And so we went and we watched. And to my mind, it was a what was clearly the final cut without raw with, you know, no dissolves. You know, the magic memories, the magic marker going across the screen.

Was it tent music or did it have a score and all those songs in it? It had everything in it. It had Layla. I came out, the Layla body finding sequence. Oh my God. Blew my mind. And by the way, that's become, because that was so seminal, that everybody has aped it in every TV show. Everybody apes.

That throwdown song set piece to some insane piece of visual, but it had never been done before. No, no. One of the greatest. That's the, that of the nineties. That's the. That blew my mind. It blew my, it blew, it blew my mind. It was, it was like when I was a kid and I visited my, um, aunts and uncle who were what they used to call rotoscopers, which were early animators. Mm-hmm.

And they said they were working on, as they said, this direct quote, a stupid space Western. And so I went to the warehouse where they were shooting it and it was Star Wars. And I saw early footage of a trailer and they hadn't even, it was Luke and Layla swinging across the chasm of the Death Star and the rope, but they were swinging across a linoleum floor. They hadn't even put in the

And they had the lightsabers didn't have. And I, you know, that thing of kids know, like kids know, like the adults thought it was stupid. Right. But, you know, 12 year old me, even without any of it in, I was like, blew my mind, blew my mind.

How old were you when you realized you wanted to be an actor? Were you always obsessed with cinema? Was that going to start with just your love of movies? It started with a theater. It didn't even start with movies. I went and saw a production of... There was really a healthy theater economy in Dayton in the early 70s. And so I would see...

Summer Stock coming through, great actors, you know, on tour, literally bus and truck versions of stuff. And I saw Oliver that had kids in it. And I had like a, like a God shot moment that like, this is what I wanted to do. And like, people are like, okay, you crazy little...

punk, whatever. And like you said, ignorance is bliss. I didn't know that Dayton, Ohio wasn't exactly a factory for actors, but that's how it started. And then yes, I was in love with movies and TV, obviously, afterwards. What's your favorite theater performance? Is there one that stands out? The one that just came to mind when you say it was Malkovich in Burn This. Saw it. Saw it.

Right? I remember watching that play. There was a moment in the play where he turns and walks upstage and goes out a window and starts talking with his back to the audience. And I'm like, he's a better actor than everyone else. And he's not even looking at the fucking audience. How did he do that?

That was like, what year was that? That was our mid eighties, maybe? Mid, mid eight. I want to, I want to say it was like 85. Yeah. 85, mid eighties. Cause I think, cause I, cause I was in college. I remember I, I saw, I was in school and I came back to see, I think I was, I think I was still in college when that came out. Oh my God. That fucking piece. I mean,

I used to love just watching actors that I knew, that I loved, and go to see them on the boards when you can't, you know, cut and go, let's see what's really going on here. Yeah, listen, I love it. And I mean, I love the theater. I love it, I love it, love it. And I feel very...

I feel like some of my favorite movies are like Tom Cruise, who I think is one of the greatest actors in the world. I would love to see Tom on on stage. I mean, all the people that I love as an actor, I just really wish that I could see them because it's it's it's it's another thing. It's like, you know what it's like. It's like like if you're a designated hitter, you're not really playing baseball. It's like you are playing baseball. Yeah. You go to the Hall of Fame.

It's great, but I'd like to see you throw and run. I'd like to see, see a field of ground ball. Uh, the other one I saw, um, I've seen a lot of great ones, but the other one, um, was Natasha Richardson in the very first original redo, uh, of, uh, cabaret that was next level. Yeah. I didn't, I've seen that show many times. I didn't see Natasha do it.

And then the other thing was, what's the Mike Nichols movie that was Julia Roberts? Yeah, and Natalie Portman. Natalie, yeah. That on Broadway was bananas. Did you happen to see Mark Rylance in Jerusalem? No, I love Mark Rylance. Holy shit. So I went, Noah Emmerich and I, I'm in New York. I think I may have been...

we doing americans i can't remember but i was in new york and no one i go to see jerusalem and at intermission we go out like we catch in the sky like the greatest night of his life because what's happening on that stage is beyond anything i have ever witnessed in my life by an actor on the plank and he's like i'm right there with you dude we go back for the second act

We leave the theater just on air going. We just never, I never honestly had ever. It was almost unfair to the other actors on stage because he was so much better than everyone else. He was so lived in and he so inhabited this character in a way that was so deep and so specific that everything else sort of felt vague around him. We literally go back the next night.

to watch him again. Cause we're like, maybe he just, this was just the night. This is like, when you ever met him, it was at night on August 15th. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Did it again. Did it again. I go back to LA where I live. He calls me up like a week later. He goes, I went a third time. No way. Just as good. Mark Rylance.

The play starts with his head in a bucket of water. He literally starts the play. His feet are up here. He's doing a handstand with his head in a bucket of water. That's how he, and he comes out and shakes all the water off. And it's electric. He's, listen, he's, Mark Rylance is one of the great, great of great of greats. You ready for like, it's going to be surprising for you to hear this one? Yeah.

I saw a version of the elephant man in the West end. I want to say 11 years ago, it was Bradley Cooper right after he won the Academy award, dude. I heard he was electric. Yeah. He's great. Bradley's great, man. He's a great actor, right? Yeah. He's in the Newman cat. He's in Newman category with us, you know, with, with, with the guys we love. Yeah. And directing like those guys, right? They're all the directing now. Have you started directing?

I, I, I've been so damn, you know what it is. It's nine months out of your, your life. And, and I really haven't had the time. I did do a, um, a sort of new version of the bad seed about two years ago. Bad seed. Is that famous? Bad seed is it was, by the way, it was a huge Broadway play ran for two years back in the, I want to say the fifties. It was a sensation because it's a sweet little girl who you realize is a murderess and

And then it became a very sort of cult camp movie. And so I found this actress, McKenna Grace, who's gone on to do a lot of great stuff. And I love it. I love when I get a chance to direct, but I don't get, it's not, I just don't really have

the time to do it as much as I would like. But I... And I do think actors make really good directors for the most part. Oh, yeah. I think they make... I think of any of the... You know, I've seen, you know, cinematographers obviously have done it and stuff like that. But I think... And writers, of course. But I think actors...

I think most... You look at these guys, they're all... Starting with Eastwood, right? Well, starting with Charlie Chaplin, I guess you can go all the way back there. But they have a very specific way of seeing stuff, of storytelling, and always coming from character, which is most important. Listen, I think you're one of the greats. I got a couple of ideas I'm thinking about I'm going to send to you because I think...

this would be a great match and uh the next time you add another brother to ben affleck it better be me better not be john ham if it's fucking john ham i'm coming for you if it's fucking you know what i'm saying it's like we're gonna we're gonna beef you and me so so how do you you know you have a really interesting career i watch your game show by the way you know my wife hosts game shows oh i love your wife by the way my wife give her a hug

She's the best. She's the best. She's the best. The best. I need to get her on a podcast so people can understand how

awesome she is and how brilliant she is. She's the greatest. But, uh, so we're game show people here in the house. So congratulations on yours. We love your show. It's really fun. It's really fun. And like, how did that happen? Like you, you're like, you do everything, dude. You know what? It's, it's a little bit, like I said, directing, you get to use every club in your bag. Yeah. It's like this doing the podcast allows me to fanboy, um,

over people I love, like I'm doing with you today, and be curious and learn. And to tell stories in real time.

And to have offer a point of view, because I feel like after 40 years in the business, I have a I have a point of view. So that's this. The game show is two things for me. It's one. It's I love trivia. Love it. Love it. Love it. Love it. I love game shows. I was on the ten thousand dollar pyramid with Dick Clark when I was 15. No. Yes, I was. Are you serious? Yes, I was. And I want I went to the pyramid and won every time.

Come on. Yep. You can look it up on YouTube. I will look it up. I have the hair of Farrah Fawcett majors. All feathered back. Oh, it's really a lot. It's really a lot. And then the other part of it is I really am cognizant about, and people say, how do you, how, staying relevant.

And staying in the discussion is more important than it's ever been in our business. And the notion that I have 10-year-olds every Wednesday watching the floor while they're doing their homework is an annuity. Yeah, yeah, that's a great way of saying it.

That's a great way of saying it. It's an annuity. And also, like, the notion of, I didn't know it would be as stimulating as it is. So it's like being in, I look at it this way. It's like doing a one-man show, sort of stand up and being an air traffic controller.

It's all those things at once. You've got to run the game. You've got to remember the stakes. You've got to remember the numbers. You've got to pace the show up. You've got to try to be funny. You've got to know when to let the

like being an announcer, let, let, let the stakes play out when to talk, when not to talk. It's way more challenging and invigorating than I thought it would be. And that's, that's, that keeps me coming back. Yeah. You're juggling. Yeah. I watched it with my wife and then you juggle. It's a lot of balls. I mean, how, how many, how many shows, how many shows you guys shoot a day? So I'm going, I'm leaving in 10 days to go shoot seasons five and six.

And we will shoot them all in 10 days. So I do between two to three shows a day. Okay. And we do 10 episodes. Two, four, six, eight, 10. Yeah. She was shooting sometimes six a day. Oh my God. Couldn't do that. Minimum five. Can't do it. Three, on the three show days, on the three show days, I'm ready to blow my brains out. Yeah.

Yeah. It's unfair, but you know, it was, she, she was, um, on the game, it was a game show network. So the budgets are a little different than your show. So they were squeam and they were just, I, um, I just did a, I just saw the analyst at the floor is the most, um, lucrative show on television. No full stop. What, what, what's the, what's the analytics for that? How, how do they, how do they judge that based on,

Ad revenue? Ratings, downloads, live performance on Hulu, budget. Right, right. Yeah, it's like it's unbelievable. I never, ever expected it to be what it's become.

Never. I knew it was good and it was going to be fun, but I had no idea it would become what it is. Did they, did, because you were done a game show before that, right? Didn't you have a game show? So did they, did they come up with the idea and approach you to do it?

They did. They came to me with this one. I love it. I'm developing other ones for other people to do because it's, look, we live in a world where that, at the moment, that is what a lot of people find comfort and entertainment in. Yes, families, families. You know, when I was a kid, we'd sit around and watch game shows as a family. It was great. I love, you know, I love game shows. Hollywood Squares? What's that? Hollywood Squares as a kid? Hollywood Squares was great.

It's great. You know what I loved when I was a kid? I used to love the gong show. Remember the gong show? Oh my God. That's right. When I look back at it, I go, oh yeah, I think he was on a lot of blow. Cause that was always the rumor. Remember the unknown comic? Oh yeah. Remember the unknown comic?

Yeah. Back over his head. Match game was great. I used to love match game. That was fun. Oh, Gene Rayburn. Oh my God. It was great. Family feud. I used to love, love, love game shows. Love game shows. So fun.

All right, buddy. I could talk to you for another hour. I really could. This is great. It's so fun. Mutual, man. Mutual, brother. Really nice to meet you. I'm telling you, man, we're probably right around the same age. So when I was young, man, I would go to – because I can remember – I just have memories of being like a freshman in college. That's when I saw The Outsiders, which was the first time I saw you.

And then, and then like the parallel of St. Elmo's fire, which I graduated college in 86, which I think that was like, I was still in college when he, I think it was at 86 or 85. Came out in 80s, 86 came out. I was still in college when that came out. I remember seeing, cause I can remember the theaters I went to. And I remember thinking even back then going, Oh, so this is what it's going to be like. We got a college. We're still going to be just hold it on for dear life. And, but the other movie you did, which I loved man back then, it was all these,

was The Madman, Sexual Perversity in Chicago. Oh, about last night. About last night with Demi Moore. The beautiful love story. It's beautiful. Beautiful performances. I love, I thought that film was beautiful.

Thank you. And then Belushi. Was it Belushi that was in it with you? Yeah. Belushi, right? Murders. Yeah. And, you know, Elizabeth Perkins, right? Killer. Killer. But you guys will create such a beautiful movie. I don't remember who directed that. Ed Zwick. Oh, well, there you go.

There you go. Right? Yeah. There you go. But that was a really beautiful, really, you know, I just remember like it just felt very real and very lived in. The characters all felt, just felt honest and true and just felt real. And it was a real love story and it was really well done. So,

But I, so I just, I've seen so many, you know, I just, as I just was, you were like, I remember as a kid watching the movie class. Oh my God. Oh my God. Class. And I remember whatever it was, there must've been a cart. There was some kind of something with cars in the movie. Cause I remember me and my friends left and we were flying down the road. Like we were in the movie private, like maniacs. Was there a scene in there like that? Well, what, what it is, it was the very first Porsche convertible ever seen by human eyes. Yeah.

I had the very first Cabriolet for that movie. Yes. That was kind of cool. I love that. Was that Andrew McCarthy? Andrew McCarthy, Cliff Robertson. Yeah, she's with your mom. Jackie. Jackie Bissette. Yeah. Yeah.

Good old Andrew McCarthy for that one. Yeah. So fun. Anyway, so this was really cool, brother. It's really a pleasure to meet you. And I'm a fan of you as well. And hopefully I get to meet you, you know, in person on a screen. I would love it. Thank you, man. All right. Be a cool brother.

Well, thank you guys for listening. I could have talked to Gavin for a long time. What a good bro. Super good director, super good dude. Hope you enjoyed it as much as I did. And don't forget more to come next week right here on Literally.

You've been listening to Literally with Rob Lowe, produced by me, Sean Doherty, with help from associate producer Sarah Begar and research by Alyssa Grau. Engineering and mixing by Joanna Samuel. Our executive producers are Rob Lowe for Low Profile, Nick Liao, Adam Sachs, and Jeff Ross for Team Coco, and Colin Anderson for Stitcher. Booking by Deirdre Dodd. Music by Devin Bryant.

Special thanks to Hidden City Studios. Thanks for listening. We'll see you next time on Literally.

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