James Burrows: The Audience Roared
50:07 Share

Art in your home can instantly transform your space and bring you joy. Saatchi Art makes it easy for you to discover and buy one-of-a-kind art that you'll love. Whether you're looking to complement your home decor, fill a blank space on your walls, or start an art collection, you can find the perfect piece for your specific style and budget at Saatchi Art. Go to SaatchiArt.com today to bring the beauty of art into your home. Plus, listeners get 15% off their first order of original art with code ROB.

That's 15% off at SaatchiArt.com. S-A-A-T-C-H-I-Art.com. Ever wish your favorite TV show had twice as many episodes? Everyone knows that feeling. And so does Discover. Everyone wants more of their favorites. That's why Discover doubles another favorite thing, cash back. That's right.

Discover automatically doubles the cash back earned on your credit card at the end of your first year with Cash Back Match. Now that's a real crowd pleaser. Everyone knows how it ends. Double the cash back. See terms at discover.com slash credit card. When was the new kind of family? 79. And I know that because it gives me the ability to say that I've worked in one additional decade. Oh, my God.

Okay, folks, it's Literally with me, Rob Lowe. If you're listening to this, I assume you enjoy television. I assume you probably have heard of shows like Friends, Will & Grace, Taxi, Big Bang Theory, Mary Tyler Moore Show, et cetera. I'm about to put you on with the man who directed and was at the center of every single one of those shows and other ones. In my business, if you have a sitcom,

you want James Burroughs to direct it. There is literally no one else. He's the guy. He's won 10 Emmys. It's just unbelievable what he does. And if, to the point of which, if you have a pilot script and you get him, you're going on the air. He's, he's that big a deal. I love bringing people on this show who you guys might not know about, but you need to know about because if you, like I said, if you enjoy those shows, they don't exist without this guy. Um,

And he directed me when I was 15. So we got to ask him about that, too. See if he remembers. All right, here we go. So a new kind of family was my first big job. And the only reason I got it was I'd been shipped off to Ohio to be with my father in

as the divorce things go, you'd be with your dad in the summers. And I liked it. It was fine. I love being with my dad and everything, but I just fallen in love for the first time. Puppy love. Really? With me? Not yet. That, that, that of course happens as, as all actors fall in love with you. But, um, so I got to Ohio and I was like, my agents called and said, there's a TV show you could audition for. And I used it as an excuse to come back to see the girlfriend. And I, lo and behold, I got the TV show. Um,

a new kind of family. And that's where you and I first met because you directed... Do you remember anything about it? I remember Eileen Brennan. Yep. The star. She was so great. I remember Jane Eisner and Larry Gordon. Marjorie Gordon. Right. They were the producers. So that meant Michael and Larry were around. Yes. Now, Michael... So Michael Eisner. Yes. Most of you listening probably know the titan of show business. And then...

So it's his wife and then Marjorie Gordon. Her husband was Larry Gordon, who ran Fox. So we were on the hot seat. Those guys were watching over our shoulders. Oh, my God.

Oh, my God. I don't remember a lot about it, but I do remember. Who was the co-star with Eileen? Do you remember? Gwen Guilford. Oh, right. Chris Pine's mother. Oh, my God. Crazy. Right? Well, you know the great thing. So you come in and you direct the first episode and, you know, you start your magic streak of getting every show you ever touch on the air. And the show promptly craters. It literally is...

The lowest rated show on TV. Literally, I'm not kidding. It was opposite 60 minutes. So no one is watching and the network decides the fix because the show's concept was two single women living together, pooling their resources. By the way, it doesn't sound like a new kind of family. Sounds like a family we've seen a lot of, frankly, would have been a better title. And their fix was to fire the other family.

and bring in a new African-American family and never explain, never explain what happened to the family previously. That happened. I don't remember that at all. You were long gone, but that was the fix. And guess who played the young, wisecracking daughter in the new family? Can you guess? I have no idea. You ready for this? Yeah. Janet Jackson. Oh, my God. And it still didn't work. Ha, ha, ha, ha.

And then get this. So then there was a there was someone on the show who was an associate producer who then took the idea and went to a different network and made a show that ran for 100 years. And I can't remember what the name of the show is. Anyway, that's where we first met. Was I a terrible actor then?

Do you remember? You weren't fired, so obviously not. How many people have you fired off of pilots? Well, I don't like to say fire. I like to say they weren't right for the role. That's right, which is right. The two infamous ones who I don't know what happened to them after I got rid of them was on the pilot of Frasier, Lisa Kudrow played his producer role.

In the booth. Unfortunately, the final scene before he goes to confront his dad, she has to be really strong and tough with him. And that was not Lisa's colors. So we let her go. And I'm not sure what happened to her. I'm going to look. I'm going to check. Would you? And the other famous one was on the pilot of News Radio.

After the pilot, or I think maybe during the pilot, we fired some actor named Ray Romano. Oh, that guy. Yeah. What a hack. So we let him go because he wasn't right. And again, I have, I'm sure they're pissed at me, but that didn't last very long. But considering the amount of pilots and shows you've done, the fact that it's only two is kind of a miracle. Yeah, well, there have been others, but not with the...

Not, there's no feel good story on the other end. Coming off of a show with maybe one of the least evocative, interesting titles in the world, A New Kind of Family, I'm obsessed with titles. And as I was looking at your book,

uh, credits. I look and I go, Oh, that great title, great title, great title, network title, network title, great title. And I'm, I've always been obsessed with everybody loves Raymond. Cause that title is really something. Cause yeah. Cause you can just read the review. Everybody doesn't love Raymond. Like, you know what I'm, you know what I'm saying? And I asked Phil Rosenthal how they came up with that title. And he said, it was really simple that Ray, uh,

growing up was the favorite son and his brother used to say, everybody loves Raymond. And that's how I, I just love titles are important. Don't you think? Uh, or no, no, I mean,

It may get you to the dance. Right. It may, people may tune in, but you got to deliver the goods once they tune in. Well, you have a quote that I love, which is great. And I try to explain this to my wife, who's always pitching me ideas for a show. Ideas are not important. It's the writing. It's the execution of the idea.

Yeah, well, that's how I've been successful. I don't look for high-concept ideas at all. The only one I ever did real... Well, I guess Will & Grace is a high-concept show in a strange kind of way. But the only outrageous one I ever did, I did Third Rock from the Sun. And I did that because I wanted to work with John Lithgow. I would have never... Bonnie and Terry wrote a really funny script, but it just was...

You know, it's not the kind of show I do, but for me, it's, you know, what's a show, if I came to pitch you a show about taxi drivers, wow, that's not a very high upscale idea, but it was the execution, a bar, execution, a coffee house with six people sitting around, execution, execution.

It's that's that's to me what's the that's what I look for. I look for the execution of the idea, not the idea. Well, all of those shows that you mentioned are just the Mount Rushmore of comedies. I wish those kind of comedies were on today. I don't know why they're not. I think that the three camera multi multi camera, they call them live audience shows today are

in a tough period where the, is it that the smart comedy writers of, of which there's a very limited number don't want to work in that genre? That's sort of what I'm thinking is they feel like they want to make movies. They want to make single camera, which they perceive as more prestigious. What is the deal? Because in that era that you just described that you were a part of all of those shows were not only funny and well-received, but there was no notion that they were less than funny.

Those were prestigious shows. They were. I mean, in the 70s and the 80s, it was all sitcom driven. When I started out, it was a three network world. There was ABC, CBS and NBC. And there was 30 great comedy writers. Now we're in a 500 network world and there are still 30 great comedy writers.

So people don't have to, they don't talk about shows anymore. When a show's a hit now, it would have been canceled with that number when there were three networks. So it's more diverse, you don't need as much of an audience.

The people are doing stuff who are not qualified to do stuff and it gets on the air. And so, you know, I I've attended the funeral for the sitcom three or four times and every and all of the times I've been there, we've closed the coffin and swept it off stage. This time, I'm not so sure. I mean, the man who was keeping sitcom alive for a while was Chuck Lorre. And they just

canceled two of his multi-camera shows. So I don't know what's going on. I have no idea. I mean, is it as simple as the laugh track? I mean, is it the kind of thing where, like, I watch vaudeville and go, people were entertained by that at one point? Is it that? Like, contemporary audiences go, where are the people that are laughing in that living room? Is it that? That was never a problem before. I know. You know, so I don't know. I'm not sure what it is because laughter is contagious.

And although there is a laugh track, it does help. You know, we've in the shows I've done, the laugh track was used to bridge a cut or something like that. On Shears, we never there was never a laugh track. It was just, you know, that was if the audience left the joke, you went back and wrote another joke so that the studio audience would respond to it. And then you put that out on the air. So that's.

I think with the lack of, lately there's been no studio audiences, so they have to put a laugh track in. Right. That's a good point. Did, of all of the iconic shows that you, and this is not to date you, I was going to say Grandfathered. You didn't grandfather them, you fathered them. Let's go with Fathered. Shepard. I know which one I think is the most, what's the word, not only iconic, but...

informed the rest of the business for so many years has to be Cheers for me. Yeah, for me too, because the Charles brothers, Gunn and Les, who were my co-producers on the show, they were gracious enough to give me a created by credit. And it will always be because I was in the room when that show was birthed.

The three of us talking about what kind of show we wanted to do and everything like that. They went off and wrote this unbelievable script. It's just my favorite and it will always be. So the original script, the pilot script showed up great. Oh, my God. I we discussed doing the show and we we talked about the characters. They went off and about a month later, I received the script and.

And I read it and I said, you guys have brought radio back to television. Wow. Because it was so literate, so smart, so upscale. And we ran with it right from that point. But see, that's the thing is the shows that we love, Mary Tyler Moore, Cheers, Frasier, there are a few other ones. They were highly literate.

And there were jokes in them for sure, set up punchline jokes, but they didn't live and die on that. I mean, there's a whole other genre of sitcom that is nothing but set up joke punch. And I'm not a fan of that. But the ones that were character driven, story driven, that were funny coming from that area, which those were.

I just don't understand why we can't have, I would give my flipping eye teeth to be on a show like that. Like if I could go back in time and be on Frasier, I'd be the happiest clam that ever clammed anywhere. Cause it's just words and verbiage and being literate and attitude. It's so fun. I mean, Frasier might be my favorite of yours. Might be. In the beginnings of Cheers,

We did Kierkegaard jokes. We did Schopenhauer jokes. And the network would call us and say, nobody knows who those people are. And we'd say, we don't care because it's the intent of Diane Chambers saying those names, which is what is important to us. And then when, and then when Fraser entered the scene, the character on Cheers in the third year,

it became more and more of that verbiage. And then when Lilith came, it became more and more. And the audience roared at it. They didn't understand. You know, it was Noel Coward. The two of them, we did a show on Cheers called Dinner at Eight where they invite Sam and Diane over, Lilith and Fraser, for dinner. And it's total Noel Coward. It's high-end comedy. And the great thing about it was you had...

Teddy there who, you know, was Sam Malone. And while they were talking and arguing, all he did was sit at the table and eat and react. And so it let the audience, if Sam doesn't understand it, it's okay that we don't understand. That's right. Yeah. Well, I read, I didn't realize this, that not only did Sam not understand that conversation, but apparently Ted Danson had never heard of baseball, basically? He heard of it, but he never...

He never, I don't think Teddy ever went to a game. Sam Malone was originally a character called Sam Harrison, who was a wide receiver for the Patriots. And when we cast Teddy, he didn't look like a football player. He looked like a baseball pitcher. So we based it on Bill Lee, the famous reliever. Yes, Spaceman Bill Lee. Spaceman.

And so, you know, Teddy was a far sewer from Carnegie Mellon. He, you know, he was not a sports guy. I took him to his first baseball game. And then one of the finalists for the character of Sam Malone was Fred Dreyer, who later became Hunter. But Fred was a defensive end for the L.A. Rams. Of course. So I said to Teddy,

We hired Fred to do a couple of shows to play Sam's buddy, Dave, who did sports at 11 o'clock for a television station. It was called Eye on Sports. So I said to Teddy, watch this guy. This is who Sam Malone is. He's a peacock, and that's what Sam Malone is. ♪

At Ashley, you'll find colorful furniture that brings your home to life. Ashley makes it easier than ever to express your personal style with an array of looks in fun trending hues to choose from, from earth tones to vibrant colors to calming blues and greens. Ashley has pieces for every room in the house in the season's most sought after shades. A more colorful life starts at Ashley. Shop in store online today. Ashley, for the love of home.

All set for your flight? Yep. I've got everything I need. Eye mask, neck pillow, T-Mobile, headphones. Wait, T-Mobile? You bet. Free in-flight Wi-Fi. 15% off all Hilton brands. I never go anywhere without T-Mobile. Same goes for my water bottle, chewing gum, nail clippers. Okay, I'm going to leave you to it. Find out how you can experience travel better at T-Mobile.com slash travel.

Qualifying plan required. Wi-Fi were available on select U.S. airlines. Deposit and Hilton Honors membership required for 15% discount terms and conditions apply. When you did Taxi, Danny DeVito and Christopher Lloyd...

had done Cuckoo's Nest? Yeah. No, they were in the play in the early 70s in Cuckoo's Nest off-Broadway. Wow, that explains a lot. It's amazing to go back and look at Taxi and to see that lineup. How crazy was Andy Kaufman? He wasn't crazy at all. He wasn't crazy at all. I love it. Tell me more. He was a Jewish kid from Great Neck, Long Island. Grew up in a home that was, you know, somewhat had some money.

He was the bravest comic I had ever seen in my life because he would come out, he never told jokes. He would come out on stage and do a routine until you laughed. I saw him come out once and read Gone with the Wind. He started reading Gone with the Wind. And it was, he kept reading 10 minutes going on and on. And finally the audience started to laugh and he got what he wanted. So he was more of a performance artist. Mm-hmm.

And he was amazing as Latke. He was... Amazing. He had a photographic memory. He had day-night reversal, as most comics do, because they're up performing at comedy clubs. So he would come in at 1 o'clock. The rest of the cast would come in at 9. And he knew his lines, and he was interspersed in the show. Occasionally, when he was heavy in a show, he would come in earlier, because I needed to rehearse him more. But he was...

He was amazing as a character. And the whole Tony Clifton incident, which now goes down in history, but is immortalized because Milos Forman made that movie, Man in the Moon. Now, so Tony Clifton was his alter ego, but from what I'm gathering from you, it was just a performance artist character that he was interested in. Right. Not a lot of people knew Andy was Tony in the beginning.

And he would if he had an evening of Andy Kaufman had an evening and he would come out as Tony Clifton as the opening act and he would he had prosthetics on his face. He had a big belly. He had a brocade tuxedo. He had a ruffled shirt. He had a terrible wig. He had sunglasses and he would start singing songs from a Vegas act and he was horrible.

And the audience would boo him, get off, get off. We want Andy Kaufman. We want Andy Kaufman. And, you know, he would do, what, 15 minutes and he would go off, change his costume, take off all the prosthetics and he would come back as Andy. And it was an amazing, occasionally, you know, we all knew that Andy Kaufman was Tony Clifton, but occasionally he had a partner named Bob Zamuda and Bob Zamuda would dress as Tony Clifton.

And walk around with Andy to try to confuse people. That's so interesting. So the notion that he lost the plot is an additive that history has put on that whole thing. Andy knew what he was doing at every moment. And Danny DeVito, would you have ever have known? People forget what Danny has accomplished. Danny...

is an amazing actor he's in cuckoo's nest taxi all of the great movies he's done always sunny in philadelphia which i think is is the modern is probably the best comedy of the past i don't know 10 15 years and danny made it happen not only did he produce it but it wasn't going anywhere until he decided to be in it and um you know his directing i think hoffa is a great movie that he directed people forget would you ever have known that he was capable of such things

Danny had made a couple of short films, but he always wanted to direct. He has that sensibility. I mean, look at Taxi. Who would you expect would be the movie star out of Taxi? Right. And Cheers. Who would you expect to be the movie star out of Cheers? Woody. Well, listen, people say, go watch The Outsiders. And the guy with no teeth in it who has five lines becomes the world's biggest movie star, Tom Cruise. You just don't know. Right. The Mary Tyler Moore Show.

That was your first sort of big show, right? No, that was my first show. First show, period. Period. Jesus Christ. I mean, I don't know about you, but when I hear the Mary Tyler Moore theme, I am transported still. Oh, wow. It just takes me back to a certain age and time. And I would have been pretty young, and I loved that show so much. I mean, they are so great in it. I mean—

I was watching the show the other day where Maury was so excited that Ted was about to read one of his stories. And he says, and the dogs were, he confused which dogs they were, the doctor, because he was not, he was a vegetarian instead of veterinarian. Just a stupid joke, but so funny. What was Mary like? I never got to meet her. She was wonderful. She's the reason I got into television. I was...

theater stage manager. And my dad was a Broadway playwright. He wrote How to Succeed in Business and Guys and Dolls and directed How to Succeed and directed Cactus Flower and 40 Carats and Can Can. And so I was kind of born in the trunk. And in 65, when I got out of grad school before you were born, I got a job as an assistant to the assistant stage manager on

musical my dad was doing called Breakfast at Tiffany's based on Truman Capote's novel. And the stars were Mary Tyler Moore and Dick Chamberlain. So you had Laura Petri and Dr. Kildare. So the advance was huge because people in New York wanted to see them. And it was not my dad's best work. He was let go. And I said to my dad, can I stay on the Titanic? And he said, sure.

So I stayed on, and the man who replaced my father didn't help much. And the audience, we only played four previews in New York City. We never went out of town. The audience hoot and hollered and yelled at the actors because it was so horrible. And Mary would come off, and I would always meet her when she exited a scene. She would come off and wrap her arms around me and start crying because it was so horrible.

painful for her to endure this nastiness. Why was it so bad? The show my dad wrote was okay. It had a big advance, but they brought in Edward Albee to replace my dad, who's

Not really known for his musical comedy. I'd say. Yeah, and he introduced Holly's miscarriage into the show. Oh, hilarious already. Yeah, I know. And he also had the character Dick Chamberlain played be able to take, if a character was in trouble, the dialogue for the character, he could crush it and throw it away and she would be fine.

I remember one point he said, "Mary, I'll write you a better scene." And from the audience you hear, "Why don't you write a better play?" The final moment of the show, all the scenery pulled back and there was one piece of paper on the stage and Dick Chamberlain came out, crushed it like that, threw it down, and the cat, there's a famous cat in Breakfast at Tiffany's, came out and played with it. So in order to get a cat,

To play with a piece of paper, you have to put catnip on it. So Chamberlain Dick picked up this piece of paper, went like, crushed it, and the catnip went everywhere, including down his arm. And he threw the paper out, down on the ground. The cat came out and went right for his arm. You can't win for losing. So that's how I knew her. And then I had run a theater in San Diego, and...

I had done a lot of summer stock and I had seen, I had tuned in one night and saw the Mary Tyler Moore show on. I say, they're doing 25 minutes in a week and I'm doing two hour play in a week. I think I can do that. So I wrote her a letter and Grant Tinker responded to me, who was then married to her, the late Grant Tinker, and said, we're very interested in theatrical directors. Would you come out and do one show? Wow.

Yeah. Tell me about the Legendary Friends. I've heard Legend is, again, going back to titles, some of the horrible titles that were originally attached to that. Literally, one was six and one. Six of one. Six of one. Oh, even worse. That's a bad one. Half a dozen of another. Really bad. And that was a title. And then...

Was Friends Like Ours, and then they cut it to Friends finally. Is that correct? Friends Like Us. Friends Like Us. I think so, yeah. I was in and out of that. I saw Courtney Reed. She wanted to be Rachel.

And they had already cast Lisa. And they wrote Ross for Schwimmer. Oh, really? How did they know Schwimmer at that point? Schwimmer was in a show for them before. Okay. He didn't want to do it. He didn't want to commit to a series. So I had worked with Schwimmer on a show called Monty, which is a pilot that got on the air with Henry Winkler playing Rush Limbaugh. Hmm. His wife is Kate Burton, and the two kids...

were David Schwimmer and David Krumholz. Oh, my God. And so I called Schwimmer and I said, look, David, I'm doing four pilots this year and I read the script, so I'm doing a fifth because I think it's really special. I think you should come out and at least talk to these people and meet these people.

And so he did. And the rest is history. It's amazing that he almost didn't do it. It wouldn't have been as good. And Jennifer Aniston, the famous Rachel. I mean, what I mean, just America's sweetheart, basically almost overnight, although they all were. But do you do you remember your initial thoughts on her? At the reading, I was I was blown away by the six of them. It was just because you never know till you get the cast together what the chemistry is going to be.

So around that table, it was extraordinary. I remember up in Warner Brothers had a big square, huge tables all around formed a square. And it was amazing. And then Jen was, she was in second position because she was on a show called Muddling Through for CBS. And Warner Brothers did everything possible to have CBS cancel that show. And eventually they passed on the show. But it was a summer show.

So she had done six episodes. And it was an extraordinary cast. I still see a lot of them. Some of them call me Papa. They're a wonderful group of kids. And the fact that they love one another comes across the screen.

At Ashley, you'll find colorful furniture that brings your home to life. Ashley makes it easier than ever to express your personal style with an array of looks in fun trending hues to choose from, from earth tones to vibrant colors to calming blues and greens. Ashley has pieces for every room in the house in the season's most sought after shades. A more colorful life starts at Ashley. Shop in store online today. Ashley, for the love of home.

All set for your flight? Yep. I've got everything I need. Eye mask, neck pillow, T-Mobile, headphones. Wait, T-Mobile? You bet. Free in-flight Wi-Fi. 15% off all Hilton brands. I never go anywhere without T-Mobile. Same goes for my water bottle, chewing gum, nail clippers. Okay, I'm going to leave you to it. Find out how you can experience travel better at T-Mobile.com slash travel. ♪

Qualifying plan required. Wi-Fi were available on select U.S. airlines. Deposit and Hilton honors membership required for 15% discount terms and conditions apply. What do you think made you, makes you the guy? Here's what I've heard. I've heard that you stage scenes unlike anybody else. That's what I've heard. Like, I'm like, what is it with Burroughs? Because I was 15 and I don't remember.

And it was like he just has, among the other things, is just a way of very original staging. I think that's true. I know the best position for a joke. Hmm. Oh, tell me. Give me some secrets. What do you what's the best position?

There are no secrets. You just have to know it's an innate thing in me. I mean, some jokes are said standing. Some jokes are better said sitting. Some jokes are better said over the shoulder. Some jokes are better said walking out a door without ever turning back. You know, it's that great, the one on Will and Grace and the pilot when Sean picks up the bird because every time he's told he could stay at Will's and Grace is still there.

And he picks up the bird and starts walking out the set and he says, what time tomorrow? Anticipating that he's going to come back tomorrow. So it's just, you know, you got to see it. You got to know, you know, what's funnier. And I think that's one of my gifts. And I work totally from kindness. I work totally to respect everybody on the set. Everybody. Everybody.

And it's since it's being a since it is a writer's medium, the sitcom, the writers work hard on their script. And therefore, when the script comes down to the stage and I have to stage it, I say to the actors, let's do it the way it's written.

and I'll stage it the way it's written and there may be problems and I'll say when those problems come up to the actors let's see if we can invent something to help these problems or let's see if we can make up a line or a joke or something like that but when the writers come down to see it the first thing I do is show it to them as written to respect their work and then

When the scene has been shown, I say, we got something funny to try here. Are you game for it? And they say, sure. And so we show them something. And if it doesn't work, they'll say no. But it may spurn a couple of ideas, you know, may spur a couple of ideas in their head on how to improve the show. So what it does is it enables the actors to feel creatively responsible and just not parroting the writer's words.

For sure. It lets the writers respect the actors and understand and acknowledge that the actors have, you know, funny things to do and funny things to say. And if you cast the right actors, you can only make your show better. It's amazing. That's a great, a great lesson to come from a place of kindness all the time, because as you know, the hours are not, not on sitcoms so much, but still the hours are brutal. There's a lot of pressure.

And it's so easy, at least for me. I can get super impatient sometimes. You just get ground down. Oh, yeah. What you do with your one-camera stuff, I don't know how you do it. I admire you. 911 Lone Star. We'll do like an avalanche sequence and this, that. And you're just like, oh, my God. It's like brutal. But it's a totally different experience.

thing. So yeah, it's, it's super hard. I remember on the West wing, we were three stages over at Warner brothers from the, the friends set. And it was at the end when they were making a gazillion dollars and I, and it looked like a Beverly Hills, uh, auto show. You'd see the Lamborghini pull in and the Mercedes pull in and the Porsche pull in. Of course they were pulling in at one o'clock in the afternoon. I'd been there since 6.00 AM. Um,

Then they'd be pulling out at 6 p.m. and I'd be there till midnight. It was just, we used to laugh and go, those little bastards, they really have it good. It was super fun. It was, I mean, then that's the other thing is that lifestyle is a great lifestyle. You get to see your family. You have free time. What was the Will and Grace? Who did you see first for that? And like who, because that's a great show. I mean, that's an all-time classic. Yeah.

It's the funniest show I've ever done. Laugh. Wow. That's the funniest. Laugh per page. Oh, my God. And jokes on that show you couldn't do on any other show. I mean, we could get away with so many things because it was, that show was little heightened reality. And it was four really innocent people saying dastardly things. But because they were innocent, because you understood their plight,

we got away with it. And we had, we were the, that was, that show was the king of euphemism for body parts. And, uh, we, you know, it was just wonderful in the writer's room to hear them come up with different, uh, different phrases for bodily parts. And, um, uh, I, when I got on that show, they had Eric and they had him, he read with another girl and,

And I said to the guys, you got your will, but I don't think you have will and grace because there wasn't the magic between them. And I was there for Sean. I was, in fact, at my house, we auditioned Deborah. We had three people finalists for Grace. And when Deborah came in and read with Eric, if we had a contract, we would have put it in front of her. Why is that? And you're right, it happens. Somebody comes in.

And you're like, duh, what is it? Are they that much better than somebody else? Is it a chemical thing? I've never been able to figure out why, what has happened when an actor comes in and just is the thing. And I don't know what to attribute it to. It's lightning in a bottle.

That's, that's it. I mean, the example I can use about how much luck is involved with having the right actor for the right role at the right time is that the friends pilot that I did in 94, it was the last pilot done that year. And those six people were available. That's unbelievable. So that's all I'm saying. So, you know, with, with, with cheers, I had seen Teddy, uh,

He came in to read for a show I did called Best of the West. We didn't cast him, but I remembered him. And Shelley Long had been turning down pilots forever. So finally she read something she liked. So it's just, then if she reads it, you got to put her with Ted. So, you know, that's what, when Debra read with Eric, we knew there was magic there. It's like finishing their each, they're finishing their own sentences, each other's sentences. So that's something it's,

It literally is lightning in a bottle. When it's like Megan Mullally, I had worked with on a movie I did called About Last Night, and she crushed it as Demi Moore's best friend. Absolutely destroyed. And then it's like,

Not a lot really happened for her. And then she gets Will and Grace. And now, you know, she's had a career that continues, a great one to this day. But it's, you know, you can be as good as you're going to be, but you have to find the right vehicle. And that part came along for her. And she just, I mean, I mean, with that voice that she was doing, it's unbelievable what Megan's doing in that show. If you watch the first six episodes, five episodes, she hasn't got there yet.

So the voice keeps getting higher and higher. And finally she locked in. She she read for Grace. We had a real we had a real hard time finding Karen and the boys remembered her and brought her back in and she killed. She could have been Grace. What is the one show that you to this day can't believe didn't happen?

You would have bet the house on it. The one that I thought should have gone was a show called The Class, which is a show written by David Crane, who, with Marta Kaufman, created Friends, and his partner, Jeffrey Klarik. It was this wonderful show about a high school reunion, Jason Ritter's in it, and he calls his friends from his class, his third grade class, because he's getting married and he wants to...

He wants to get him back for a reunion and to meet his fiance. And of course, he never gets married. But it was this eclectic bunch of people that were so funny. You had Lizzie Kaplan. You had Jesse Tyler Ferguson. You had Heather Goldenhirsch. We had John Bernthal. We had David Keith, Andrea Anders. The boys wrote, David and Jeffrey wrote this wonderful script called

It got on the air, but it was just mishandled, I think, by the network. Again, most of the shows I do are shows that you're not going to watch on the first airing because there's nobody in it you know. And in television, it takes time for the word of mouth to get out. So they love the pilots, so they put it at 8 o'clock before How I Met Your Mother and...

It did well the first week because they promote, promote the crap out of it. But I knew that they would be promoing it for, and people would watch it that would never watch it. And, or ever. So the second week, those people tuned out. So they started to see a drop and it just, it broke my heart because it was,

I think it's one of the things that drove David and Jeffrey out of network television. And they did episodes about working in network television because of that experience. And the other one, believe it or not, I did a pilot of The Goodbye Girl. This is a long time ago with Karen Valentine and Michael Lembeck. And it was a wonderful show but never got picked up because –

It was Network Studio 13, 13 episodes or six episodes, and they never agreed on it. It was written by my friend Alan Katz, and that's the other show that I wish I'd gone. People don't realize the...

subterfuge politics that goes into why a show works, doesn't work. You know, it can be as simple as the pairing, you know, what shows in front of another show. I did a show called The Grinder that's one of my favorite things I've ever done. Super proud of it. I put it up there with any of the funny stuff certainly I've ever done.

but it was paired with a John Stamos show called Grandfathered. They could not have been more... I mean, one's won a very specific type of comedy and the other's a different type of comedy, and those audiences would never, ever watch each other's shows. But there we were, paired up. And, you know, the network's comp... Their big smart idea was, it's two handsome guys. What could go wrong? And literally, that's the way they think. Yeah, I mean...

I always, once I got clout, I always begged the networks that the kind of show I do to please put it in a spot it doesn't have to prove itself right away. Well, there is no such thing now. Well, if you're at 830 instead of eight, you've got a little leeway, a little bit, or 930 instead of nine. You know, I begged them on Cheers, you know, Cheers when it premiered, it followed the

It followed Taxi. NBC had bought the last year of Taxi. So, and those kind of things. And I did the pilot of Night Court and I begged them to put it after Cheers. Don't, you know, because it was, you know, nobody knew who Harry Anderson was. And especially Unwilling Grace, which was a show that I knew 25% of the country would not watch. And I begged them, put us in a slot where we don't have to prove ourselves right away. And then people may come across it and...

People may hear from other people how funny it is, and we can build that way. And they did that with Will and Grace. Those days are over. There's no building. No. What are your favorite comedies that you were not a part of? And that would include things on today. Is there anything on TV that's making you laugh right now? Yeah, Curb Your Enthusiasm. That's amazing. Amazing. Amazing. I could never have even thought of the stuff Larry thinks of. I'm incredibly...

indebted to him to keep it for keeping comedy on the air you know he's done it over 12 years I think you know he doesn't he only does I don't know 12 or 15 a year or every other year so that kind of show right now is on I think it's HBO Max HBO yeah and again it doesn't

It's not, I'm not sure how that show would have done in a three network world. You know, it's so specific to so many people. And I don't know, you know, but, you know, Seinfeld, Larry did Seinfeld, which was unbelievable. And I wish I could have done All in the Family. Couldn't do it today. No. In fact, we did...

Jimmy Kimmel had the idea of recreating the shows live in front of a studio audience, which I did. How was that experience? We did all the filming at Jefferson's. Oh, I love the Jeffersons. On the Jeffersons, we did the pilot episode. But I had a great time. It was really scary for me because I had to cut that show live.

for America, both episodes, all in the family and the Jefferson. So you're up there snapping your fingers in the booth. My fingers don't snap anymore. I have a clicker. It looks like a frog. And, uh, uh, I, I was, you know, you can't make a mistake. It looks ugly. If you do, you can't correct it. It goes out. And, um,

I was scared, but it turned out great. And I did a subsequent one, Facts of Life and Different Strokes, with adults, with Jen playing Lisa Weckl and Kevin Hart playing Gary Coleman. Oh, my God. Yeah, I saw. That was amazing. Would you like to do more live television? I would. I've never, other than Saturday Night Live, I've never really done it. I would love...

to do live TV. Love it. Once a year is fine for me. Takes a year for the adrenaline to die down. I have to rehearse it so many times. I have to because I have to keep doing the show over and over again, cutting the cameras so it becomes almost rote to me so that I can feel confident when it's going out over the air that I can tell my TD, the guy who pushes the cameras, watch me on this one. Don't cut it right at the end because there's going to be a big laugh.

And we may have to bounce back and forth. Wow. I had not thought of that. You don't really, in theory, know where the laughs are going to be, which involves the cutting, as opposed to a drama where you're watching George Clooney do Fail Safe or whatever. You can just kind of do that. Right. So interesting. Well, when you do a live show, I hope I'm your first phone call. Okay. You will be. And vice versa. Well, hey, why don't we redo A New Kind of Family? Next question.

Tell me a little bit about the new book. I wrote a book at the behest of my wife. She said, I've heard your stories for 25 years. Can you please let the world hear them? So I found a co-writer, a man named Eddie Friedfeld, who was a big fan of

situation comedy and written books on Sid Caesar and Carl Reiner and Mel Brooks, not Carl, I think Mel. And I started talking to him, telling him stories for about a year and a half. And in making a deal with Ballantyne, the book publisher, they wanted it to be instructive along with being telling the story of my life. So there are things in about how I think it's best to

do a successful comedy. I mean, it's, they're not fail safe, but there's stuff talk about cameras and what, what cameras are involved in what I do and staging audiences and stuff like that. So I had a great time and it's been, um,

I bought a copy. Well, I'm going to buy one because I collect books from the brilliant people in the industry, particularly when they're instructive. Oh, my God. So if you buy a copy and send it to me, I'll autograph it David Mamet, okay? Please. Yeah.

Well, I learned a lot and I'm getting that book. That's all I can tell you. Very, very, very few people in the business with the experience that that man has. And to be able to just sort of suck some knowledge out of that brain was amazing for me. And I hope you guys liked it as well. Ring, ring. What's that? Oh, it's the lowdown line. Hello. You've reached literally in our lowdown line.

where you can get the lowdown on all things about me, Rob Lowe. 323-570-4551. So have at it. Here's the beep. Hey, Rob. It's Charlotte and Gemma from Arizona. And we wanted to know which Outsiders character has the most flavor. Thank you. Bye. Oh, my God. Charlotte and Gemma are so damn cute. I want them as my co-hosts.

I don't have a co-host on this show. I think I how great would Charlotte and Gemma be as my co-hosts? Just cute and amazing. The most flavor. That is what they said, right? The most flavor. Well, listen, I mean, obviously I'm biased. Which outsider has the most flavor? I'm going to be biased. Soda Pop is going to have better flavor than Pony Boy. I mean, listen, I'm not crazy, but.

I would drink, in fact, I do. I drink soda pop, but I'm not drinking a Ponyboy. I'm not drinking a Dallas. Oh, uh-oh. Oh, but she wasn't an outsider. Cherry Valance would be very flavorful. But she's a zoosh, so she doesn't count. So I'm going with soda pop, most flavorful outsider. Thank you, guys. Great question. We will be back, as always.

next week with even more fun on literally thank you

You've been listening to Literally with Rob Lowe, produced by me, Rob Schulte, with help from associate producer Sarah Begar. Our coordinating producer is Lisa Berm. Our research is done by Alyssa Grahl. The podcast is executive produced by Rob Lowe for Low Profile, Adam Sachs, Jeff Ross, and Joanna Salatara for Team Coco, and Colin Anderson at Stitcher. All of the music you hear is by Devin Bryant. Thanks for listening. We'll see you next week on Literally with Rob Lowe.

This has been a Team Coco production in association with Stitcher.

At Ashley, you'll find colorful furniture that brings your home to life. Ashley makes it easier than ever to express your personal style with an array of looks in fun trending hues to choose from, from earth tones to vibrant colors to calming blues and greens. Ashley has pieces for every room in the house in the season's most sought after shades. A more colorful life starts at Ashley. Shop in store online today. Ashley, for the love of home.

All set for your flight? Yep. I've got everything I need. Eye mask, neck pillow, T-Mobile, headphones. Wait, T-Mobile? You bet. Free in-flight Wi-Fi. 15% off all Hilton brands. I never go anywhere without T-Mobile. Same goes for my water bottle, chewing gum, nail clippers. Okay, I'm going to leave you to it. Find out how you can experience travel better at T-Mobile.com slash travel. ♪

Qualifying plan required. Wi-Fi were available on select U.S. airlines. Deposit and Hilton Honors membership required for 15% discount terms and conditions apply.